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- [00:03]
Courtney Brain
Hello, welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brain. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non profit organization supporting people who are navigating stigma. As you know, over the past few episodes I've just been saying stigma and not herpes stigma because many of our conversations go far beyond that. While herpes is typically what brings people here, I don't think that's what they say for I think that is more so about the quality of presence, the through identity validation and being able to see how people have turned something that can be negatively influential in our lives into something positive. So that's where we are. The name of the COVID art is stigma minimization. And I realize I've never like explained that, but the idea here is to minimize stigma. I don't ever see a time where stigma just goes away or vanishes. It's, it's going to be something that we have to learn to live with until everybody gets tested for herpes. These and we find out how many people really have it, we learn about how shitty the tests are and people are no longer allowing this to be something that inhibits their way of being. I don't see us getting there. So I'm doing my part and just creating a space where people can have their identities validated not exclusively through herpes, but in being able to just see yourself represented through a variety of identities, especially for the people who share their presence here on this platform. So thank you, thank you. Today I'm here with our guest, Melissa. Melissa, I'm go ahead and let you introduce yourself and then I'm gonna listen and then respond.
- [01:45]
Melissa Lysane
Okay, thank you. Yes, my name is Melissa, last name Lysane and I'm from Los Angeles, born here in Los Angeles. And let's see, what do I want to share about myself? I usually go into the whole like, well, I'm a this and I do this and I don't like that. So let's see. I, I'm in a big transition in my life right now. That's what I want to share. Yeah, I have a lot of different transitions going on. I'm sure we'll get more into it. But I, I share that too because, you know, I often say that I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, sex positive sex therapy and relationship, specializing in non monogamy. So that's kind of been my, you know, my niche, my little jam there, non monogamy. Addition to that, some coaching and just sharing on Instagram, primarily just a little bit about my Own experience. That's what I really, really love to do, is just share my personal experiences, period in life, you know, but also specifically to non monogamy and. Yeah, so that's, that's kind of what I do. Although I'm, I'm moving, moving away. It's been slowly and now I'm like, yeah, I really want to do it now. Moving away from therapy, from being a therapist. I want to share my, my skills and my gifts and my experience in different ways. Although I don't know how and where and what yet. So that's, that's the whole transition part, but I'm really excited for it and what else really quickly. Also am passionate about like being a sensitive person. I love being, you know, connecting with and finding and working with sensitive people, people who identify as sensitive or maybe empathic people or, you know, that's really important to me too. And another thing that I don't talk a whole lot about, but I'm kind of like dipping my toe in it now is just my own, you know, personal spirituality and experience of that and the journey of that. And yeah, I think I'm gonna, I think that's where I'm gonna stop.
- [04:06]
Courtney Brain
Hey, first, what's the difference between, I guess for you, therapy and coaching? Like, why one, why both? Why not one or the other? Or like, what, what? Yeah, what's the difference?
- [04:18]
Melissa Lysane
Okay, well, for me, primarily why I kind of explored the realm of coaching is, was kind of just a mental thing for me. Because being a therapist, even though I've had so many supportive, radical, even mentors and supervisors working under the board, working under the government, working under the BBS with the Board of Behavioral Sciences. Board of Behavioral Sciences, yes. For me, it just has been, it was, it's been challenging. I feel restricted. I feel like I can't be and do and say, you know, what I want or who I am. Although many therapists have, many therapists find their way through that, you know, they, they do their thing regardless and I love that. And I'm, and I've been so inspired by them personally. It's just, I just, I'm just like, you know, so that was kind of the initial reason because I was so curious and interested to work with people in ways that I felt were always, you know, either scrutinize or just like a limitation with therapy. Whether that was like sharing about myself. Because again, I said like, I really love to share and I think that's just the thing that I do well. It's like sharing my own stories My own experiences, you know, and I felt like I couldn't do a whole lot of that in therapy. At least I felt good to me as a therapist. So, yeah, yeah, I'm always. There's so many other, you know, sorry, real quick. There's so many other paths that we can get into about the difference between coaching and therapy. If you really want to get into, we can. But that's my difference and kind of my, you know, my reason why I went more into coaching.
- [06:20]
Courtney Brain
Yeah. What I was going to say was there is something about just that, the skill of holding space and being able to listen to people and also being able to share your experiences too. You've experienced this where people hear something that you share about your personal life that resonates and then it opens them up to share a little bit more in depth. Right. I think that me having this podcast and being open about my own herpes diagnosis allows for people who would normally may be pursue a therapist right away or some type of coaching where they have to like, dig, dig, dig to get to know a person. There's something to be said about the vulnerability of what we put out there, allowing for people to come in already having Doug and be like, this is. This is a problem for me and be more willing to answer those questions. So, yeah, when you said that, I kind of was like, yeah, like, there's a lot of restrictions with being a therapist. You don't want to do these things and there's just like rules that you have to follow. Whereas if you just got a pod, podcast or social media page, like, and I'm very mindful that, yes, harm can be done, but there is still like that humanness, that human connection of someone being open and vulnerable and then the other person being able to see themselves in your experience.
- [07:45]
Melissa Lysane
Yep, exactly what you said. Exactly. And even I've kind of even started to, you know, shift away from coaching, from just working that in that very specific way of, of people coming to me because, like, I have some kind of answer for them or something like that or some kind of fix it or something, you know, whereas like, like you said, versus, like maybe having a podcast or creating something or just sharing and letting kind of letting happen what needs to happen. A lot of times, you know, a lot of times there isn't necessarily something to fix or, you know, or an answer. It's just kind. That opportunity to, you know, kind of be or to, like you said, to just kind of shine light on something or to. To connect whatever it is, you know, but it's not necessarily always this thing that we have to like accomplish specifically. So. Yeah, yeah.
- [08:49]
Courtney Brain
And I think what you're speaking to is, is presence. Right. It's not really doing or performing and like marketing, marketing. It gets on my nerves because it is so performative. If you want to align with what's going to get prom it, what people are going to see, what people are going to be able to amplify, like you have to play that game. And that game is really something that just like takes me out of being present. I don't know if that's the same, you know, thing with you because I look at even social media, I know that you are active on Instagram specifically and as people talking about relationships, dating, sex education, non monogamy. These kinds of conversations are absolutely getting more censored and muted. We got to around the language, put symbols in places and typos and things in order for the message to even get out.
- [09:43]
Melissa Lysane
Yep, exactly. I mean, yeah, I am, that's Instagram is the place that I go to. I guess it's just familiar and that's just. Yeah, but also for that reason, what you said of kind of the marketing thing, the dance and all that, I too, I, I, it's hard for me and hence why I have, I'm not consistent and I have spans of like months that I'm not on there. Don't do anything. And I'm here because I've come back after like, I don't know, several, several months of not creating anything. So. Yeah.
- [10:19]
Courtney Brain
Do you want to talk about the several months of not creating things?
- [10:24]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah, sure. Yes.
- [10:27]
Courtney Brain
Was it just burnout? Was it personal stuff? What?
- [10:30]
Melissa Lysane
All of the above? Yeah, I think it was. Wasn't burnout necessarily from Instagram or content creating or anything like that? It was initially burnout, I think from just the work that I was doing as a therapist or trying to do as a therapist. And then I can get into that a little bit. I'm just going to kind of share. But the, the burnout kind of that just like my profession there was, let's see, personal stuff, you know, a lot of relationship stuff. What else? Parenting and the challenges of, you know, and my own expectations of being a parent and what I think that should look like. What else? Financial struggles, you know, and then like navigating. Being in this space of I, I want something different. I want, I don't want to do therapy anymore. I actually don't want to work at all. I know. And I was dealing with that for a while. I was like you sound crazy. Like you, what are you talking about? You don't want to work. But more and more I was like, yeah, I think I need a break. I, I and it just to allow myself to say that was so hard. Was so hard is still so hard, you know, because there's a part of me that's like, no, you got to be looking for the next thing. You gotta you' the financial position to do that. Figure it out. Figure something. Do something in the meantime. And put the huge part of me is like, no, I actually just want to chill and get into creativity, but not for, you know, for a specific purpose. Just because that's what I want to do, you know, is create and be in that creative space. That's kind of a little overview of that again. Oh, and the spiritual kind of journey that I'm on. So, you know, there was a just an intentional kind of like need for time with myself. But yeah, a lot of different changes, family changes, Wayne and my husband and his relationship, new relationship dynamic. And we were kind of figuring all that out and integrating that, you know, into, in our lives. So, yeah, so much, so much going on.
- [12:57]
Courtney Brain
Yeah. What did that time look like for you? So I'm hearing it's like seven things that I want to comment on and touch on, but I'm hearing a bunch of different intersections of career, the relationship structure that you have. I'm also hearing, like, about that not wanting to work. Right. So these layers of things that I think each individually maybe has their own needs of you and your presence. And then you stack these things and it becomes like a dance where you have to keep up with all of these identities. Parent, partner, worker. And now we're talking about the spiritual component, because that spiritual that hit different, like when not prioritized, makes all of these other identities that we have a lot more difficult to manage and navigate. Whereas when we prioritize the needs of the spirit, what we see is that a lot of those other identifications don't necessarily go away, but it's a lot easier to just be present for and with what the moment calls for. Is that kind of what your experience has been with spirituality?
- [14:17]
Melissa Lysane
I love the way that you're listening to me because, yeah, you're, you're very on point with it. And that's kind of that, that's on point with what I was experiencing in that those several months. It was like re. Prioritizing of spirit, you know, and, and I'm not even really sure how to talk about it out loud or to the People like, you're probably one of the first people like on social media or whatever. Well, besides, like one person, I was doing some content with that. Like, I know it's not something that I talk about or share very much even in my personal life. You know, I'm kind of like, don't always talk about that. It's something that is still even not. I'm not sure how. How to share that yet. But anyway. A reprioritizing of spirit. Yes. And with all of those identities, it was like, you know, they say with like identity death or ego death or whatever. It was just like all of those identities kind of coming up and then just me just needing to be like, you know, like, oh, just they're so important to me. They're so real. So much happening here. And also I just need to quiet. I just need it all to just quiet and, you know, I need a moment for me and. Yep, that's what it's. It's been like. It's just like a lot of going inward. A lot of like, you know, what I thought was important to me, who I thought I was, is just all changing and shifting and. But also at the same time, like, feeling more connected and to myself than I think I ever have in my entire life. And at the same time, having no answers. No. You know, feeling like I still don't know what's ahead, but that's fine, I guess.
- [16:15]
Courtney Brain
You know, Is that kind of what peace feels like, right? To not know what's coming and being okay with not knowing what's coming. Just like there's more of a calm to the nervous system that comes with that. Is that an accurate way?
- [16:33]
Melissa Lysane
I don't know that I'm. I think I'm just getting into the calmer because it. It definitely peaked, you know, in and felt very chaotic before this, like, commerce just like starting to come through like another. Another more specific to get into a little bit more specifically. You know, I also have been navigating a new relationship and talk about, you know, you're like spirituality that hits different new relationships. Oh, my God. Talking about bringing up. Just triggering. Bringing up all the insecurities. All, you know, just having to face you was like. No matter where I turned, it was like, me, I gotta see me, and I gotta see me. You know, and that was really hard. Felt very exposing, raw, vulnerable, like. Yeah, so that's a whole new new experience too, for me.
- [17:35]
Courtney Brain
All right, so can we go there?
- [17:39]
Melissa Lysane
I'm a little scared too, but yeah. No, I want to.
- [17:42]
Courtney Brain
I want to but okay, so we're talking about a relationship. One you literally have coached, been a therapist for people navigating non monogamous relationships. You are a parent. How many, how many kids you got if you can share?
- [17:59]
Melissa Lysane
Five all together. Four that I've birthed.
- [18:02]
Courtney Brain
So y' all got five kids, right? And your wife?
- [18:07]
Melissa Lysane
Your wife. Yes.
- [18:09]
Courtney Brain
All right, so wife, mother, and now girlfriend too?
- [18:12]
Melissa Lysane
Yes.
- [18:13]
Courtney Brain
Right?
- [18:14]
Melissa Lysane
Yes.
- [18:14]
Courtney Brain
All right. How the hell, how do you do this? How do you do this?
- [18:22]
Melissa Lysane
I just, day by day, I just do it. I just day by day hence, you know what I said. The whole several months of just kind of disappearing and, you know, all of these identities just finally coming to like a, you know, I don't know how I do it. I just do.
- [18:42]
Courtney Brain
All right, so this new relationship, why is this like a thing that comparatively to spirituality, like rocking you and making you see all these things? Has any, has parenting, has becoming a wife, has the career transitions, right? Like, how come this new relationship carries more weight? Or I guess maybe it's more recent, but carried more that weight for you than any of those things?
- [19:16]
Melissa Lysane
I wouldn't say it carries more weight. It's just one of the things that is pretty present, you know, in, in happening right now. But yes, absolutely. I mean, I think that's just kind of who I am. I, I, Everything can be a spiritual, like, I mean, so the thing, it's a, it, it's not necessarily separate or different from this, the bigger spiritual journey that I'm on, you know, it's an extension of that for sure. And I think that's just kind of who I, who I am. It's like everything can be the spiritual experience for me, you know, I can just have meaningful, you know, get something out of everything. Experience with everything that I do. So. Absolutely. Parenting has been that for me, probably one of the big. Yeah, one of the biggest kind of, see, I gotta see myself, you know, giving birth, my relationship with Wayne, you know. Yeah. So many different things. Absolutely. My, my connection with my, my best friend, you know, my soul sister. That has been the whole thing too. But this one is because. Yeah, it's just currently, you know, one of the things that I'm going through. But I think also I'm gonna take a moment to really feel that before I just answer it.
- [20:41]
Courtney Brain
And listen, if we need to shift gears, we can. I got you.
- [20:45]
Melissa Lysane
Thank you. I appreciate it. I want to share it. Like, I want to share. I want to share because it's something that is genuinely like, on my heart right now, you know, and That I kind of. I think I've been a lot. Keeping to, you know, navigating kind of on a per. Just keeping it personal or whatnot. But I don't know, I just feel moved to share something. So thank you for that. But I think that it's maybe an experience. An experience where I'm, like, fully just, like, okay, being like, let me. Let me fully give. You know, let me fully, like, put myself out there. Let me be emotionally just vulnerable and messy and raw and, you know, while at the same time, like, feeling myself wanting to hold back. Like, just that whole dance of, like, no, but. No, it's not safe yet. Don't. Don't. You can't do this. You can't say this. Oh, you're gonna be perceived this way, or whatever the case, but also, you know, still trying to do that. And I think there's a vulnerability, too, of, like, being married and being a girlfriend. Like being in a relationship and being married and then starting a new relationship. Oh, really important part, too. So I met Wayne at 18, when I was 18. I'm now 40. And so we've been together for 22 years. Ish. Or something. So dating and relationships. And I had one boyfriend before that. It's not. I don't have that, like, dating experience, a whole lot of that dating experience or having different relationships to see myself in and, you know, to go through the. You know, maybe the, like, the conflicts, the ups and downs, you know, obviously with Wayne, but it's just different doing it with somebody who you haven't been doing it for 22 years with. That makes sense. So there's also that and the intersection of now, you know, being in a different stage in my life and being in a stage of my life where I'm like, what's for me? What else is for me here besides, you know, not just. But being a mom and being a therapist and being. It's like, what do I really want? I don't know if any of that made sense. This is the first time that I'm talking about it so publicly.
- [23:24]
Courtney Brain
This is a great space. Allow for news.
- [23:28]
Melissa Lysane
Oh, my gosh.
- [23:30]
Courtney Brain
I. I do sense that maybe you're being vague on purpose. I don't know if that's, like, to avoid vulnerability or too much vulnerability or to avoid over sharing or if there's, like, other people involved and you want to protect them so, like, can support you in, like, getting there and navigating the conversation.
- [23:51]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, all of that is true. All of that is True. And it's a, It's a thing that I just generally struggle with and deal with. Like, what you're seeing, what you're experiencing from me right now is like, is the thing. Hence why I created this page, this new page. I don't know if you've seen it. Oh, yeah, we've talked about it. Because you got to be. You're going to be on that page. It's my time where it's all about, you know, our voice, developing our voice, you know, the power in our voice. It's just been. It's been a challenge for me. I. It's the vulnerability piece. It's the, yeah. Being vague for other people as well, too, and, and just still struggling with the confidence of, like, what do I want to say?
- [24:48]
Courtney Brain
I got you. So as someone who, like, is pretty open about my life, I definitely understand those protections, especially of wanting. Protect other people and, you know, the relationships. You don't want to say something that someone else maybe didn't want you to share. So what I generally do is leave it at I me statements and just kind of like, talk about very vaguely, oh, this person, this happened. Right.
- [25:18]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah.
- [25:18]
Courtney Brain
So people will never be able to pinpoint who it is that I'm saying.
- [25:23]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [25:24]
Courtney Brain
Experience with, but I, I share that. So, like, one of the things that comes to mind for me now is like, maybe I can ask you, like, more direct questions too, because as we talk about, like, you were 18 when you met your now husband. Y' all been 22 years. You have one boyfriend before that, partner before that. And now, as you are at this stage of being curious about self, like, there's a lot of self exploration is what I'm gathering. Like, you just kind of. You did the things you were supposed to do, and you looked up and it's like, well, damn, did I. How much of this did I want to do? Like, I'm sure there's some of it that you wanted to do, but now just looking around and being able to see what your options are as far as how to exist, how to live. I know something that stood out to me, I think, was that 20, 23 sex down south when I met you for the first time.
- [26:27]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah.
- [26:28]
Courtney Brain
You had your kid with you, and I was like, oh, like, that's tight. Like, you, you brought, like, your, your baby. How old. How old was your baby?
- [26:36]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah, she was born in 22, so she was months. Oh, it wasn't even a year yet.
- [26:41]
Courtney Brain
Yeah. And I, I, that's something that always stands out to Me, because it's, it's very much like the environment. That environment specifically for mostly like the sex positive people of color, like seeing that and seeing that, you know, this was even a place for you where you're like, I'm committed. I'm showing up to this. Like, you brought the baby. Right. So talk to me about your experience with sex positivity as somebody who's been married since 18 and now, or not married since 18, but you've been with your person for all these years. Like, what is your curiosity? What's your draw to the world of sex positivity? Is that something that you've always been into?
- [27:29]
Melissa Lysane
Yes. Well, talking about sex, sexuality, or you're just, you know, the, the, the theme topic about sex and sexuality is something that I've always been into, sex. When I think about sex positivity, I'm. I think about the fact that I didn't learn that word or, you know, until I was in grad school to being a therapist. I didn't mean. That was like the first time that I heard sex positivity. And, you know, then started to learn about different content creators and educators and therapists and professionals who were sex positive. And it just like opened up my world and it was, it was great. It was awesome. I did a lot of self, you know, self healing and therapy through that. And sex positivity, to me is, I guess I would describe it as just acceptance, you know, as acceptance for our full sexual selves. It's not about a right or wrong, you know, or good or bad. It's just we talked about presence. It's like the presence with what is there, you know, in a positive way.
- [28:56]
Courtney Brain
So, yeah. So what's interesting is I was recently looking up what the word positive means and what negative means. And I was. It was like good, bad, but the word negative means absence, and positive means presence. So it is like the presence of something. So when I think about sex positivity, I think about bringing presence to the world of sex and sexuality. Right. Because what I say stigma often does is it fragments our sense of self, our sense of identity, and it really separates our presence and sends us, us into this space. That is, it makes us fragmented, it makes us small, it makes us only or over identify with a much smaller part of ourselves. I use herpes as an example. When a person gets herpes, it's not that they have herpes, it's, oh, my God, this is who I am now. I have to lead with. This is what I have. I have to lead with, oh, I'm going to expect rejection for this. And there's a loss of that sense of wholeness. And what I've learned through sex positivity or presence in that is that's really the way of reintegrating all these aspects of yourself and allowing for yourself to become whole again. And that is absolutely one of the things that I got to see demonstrated out loud in sex at Sex Down South. And for me, I've learned that in these spaces, these queer spaces where I get to see sex positivity demonstrated by black and brown people. It's very much been something that has challenged me while simultaneously liberating me and just being able to witness queerness. Like, I. I've gone through this phase of man, am I queer, because all these things, like, I like this stuff, but it's still just not ever really felt like mine. So that queering of my manliness, how I do relationships, my masculinity, identity, and even in my politics, right. I feel like that's what I've been able to get out of these spaces and really be more affirmed in who I am. And so I would say that that sex presence, sex positivity has been a presence practice for me of being able to more so just like, hold that wholeness of myself and not even over identifying with my sexual self, not over identifying with my straightness or my what's quirky about me or what's like, different or where I don't feel like I fit in. So I, I use that for, like, to give you context in how I would like to know. Yeah. Like what, what you've been able to really, like, get out of this.
- [31:52]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah. Thank you. That was a. That was a beautiful description of your sex positivity.
- [32:01]
Courtney Brain
Never be able to say it that same way again unless I'm practicing. So.
- [32:05]
Melissa Lysane
Thanks.
- [32:06]
Courtney Brain
Holding the space.
- [32:07]
Melissa Lysane
You're welcome. What do I want to say to that? Yes. It makes me think about what you said. We were talking about the presence, like, as being our whole selves and also the, like, the actual, like, presence in our. In our experiences and like the day in the, you know, the actual experiences that we have as a sexual being. I think having experienced some trauma, you know, it's easy to kind of be going through the motions, you know, of our sexual experiences, not just the actual physical part of, like, having sex, but even just being connected to our sexuality. What is, you know, what is my sexuality? How do I. How am I in my sexuality and engage, you know, through my sexuality? It's like, I think in one period of my life, a blur. It's just been a blur and it's just like going through the motions of it, you know. But over time it's, I've been able to connect to that, you know, more consciously, more, you know, intentionally like really feel it all and choose it, you know, and enjoy it and celebrate it and yeah, even the hard parts about it, whatever that might be. So yeah, I want, I could, I could say that. Give me some follow up questions if.
- [33:50]
Courtney Brain
You have follow up is just coming out of. Yeah, just this being your only or your first relationship. Right. I'm very curious because what is it like purity culture where people are married to the first person that they have sex with? Often only person that they have sex with. They get married, they go through the motions, eventually things don't work out, they divorce and then it's like tada. Now I have to explore my sexuality. I've only had sex with one person. I don't know what I'm missing out on. And for you to still be married, like I'm assuming that the relationship wasn't like rooted in any of that like purity culture, anything like that. So I guess my question is exploring what does it look like to I guess learn or explore your sexuality when you've been with someone for so long?
- [34:44]
Melissa Lysane
Well, that's kind of been, I think that my, the beautiful thing about non monogamy for me is it's, you know, I've, it's been the space for me to, to do that and so no, it doesn't come out of like purity culture or anything like that. It's, it's, you know, I was 18 when I met Wayne and, and I just kept choosing him, you know, and I was like this is great, this has been beautiful relationship and but we've been non monogamous since day one. So we were very open about that conversation about you know, non monogamy. Although I always say like I didn't really, I didn't know what it was. I didn't know, I didn't really hear that word. I didn't know there was a, you know, actual thing concept. I didn't know there was places and communities and spaces. Wayne was a little bit more familiar. So you know, that's how I kind of was. I learned about that there was more out there for me. I was just kind of like being my open, you know, curious self and exploring sexuality with my partner at the time. But yeah, through that I was able to, you know, the, the non monogamy part For Wayne and I initially was very sex centered. It was very much about, you know, exploring sexually together with other people. So. And it was, you know, within the swing community, so it was very much doing it together as well, too. So there was still a lot of, like, monogamous. Monogamous kind of qualities of it, but we kind of opened it up for sexual exploration and kind of initially specifically to do that together. And then that has evolved into so many different things over the years. And over time, you know, we opened ourselves up to exploring, you know, separately. We opened ourselves up to romantic, you know, emotional connections at some point and whole, you know, relationships, which, again, that's the. This is all new. The first time that we both have had, like, this official, you know, other partner and person in our lives. So I think I feel like I'm going off into a tangent, so.
- [37:06]
Courtney Brain
Oh, no, you're. You're giving information that will help me with next questions, for sure.
- [37:10]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah.
- [37:12]
Courtney Brain
The. So you've never. Y' all never been monogamous, like, fully. So when. I guess there is no, like, the. The. The transition from strictly sexual to emotional intimacy and connection. How did you feel about that? Did you feel threatened by that? Or did. Was it different for you? Was that challenging to go from, oh, we're having sex with people, and now it's like, oh, we're actually. Wait a minute. There's emotional connection or there's intimacy there. Talk to me about.
- [37:44]
Melissa Lysane
It was a mess. It was a mess.
- [37:50]
Courtney Brain
Why is it feel so much more threatening than a sexual relationship? Because in monogamy, you know, when I was 18 or going through college, like, the worst thing that could happen was for me to have sex with someone else. That was like, the worst thing for whatever partner I was with. Right? And then I started to learn that not having sex with a person that I wanted to have sex with was worse. Because it's like, wait, I would. I would rather you just have had sex with them. Because now, like, what do you mean? You talking to them every day, and it's like, what. Which one you want me to do? Right? Like, it's just. I'm either, like, I'm. I'm not having sex with this person, so it's not cheating. But then I learn about emotional cheating, and then, like, the linguistics of these things, it's like the kind of like how you said you choose Wayne every day, right? Like, if I'm with someone, I'm choosing to be with this person. I'm choosing to honor our agreements and boundaries. But over time, it Just feels like it becomes more and more and more and more restrictive in how I honor the boundaries. And that becomes more important than that. I honor the boundaries at first. So that's background for what my question is on. Why was the emotional stuff so hard?
- [39:10]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah, yeah. I say. I say it was a mess because it wasn't some. How do I want to say this? It wasn't something that, well, first of all, I might do this and then go backwards. For me, it was a mess because it was. It was a. It was a shift that felt really hard for me. It brought up a lot of shame, I think, for me. And I think it. It just kind of exposed what I felt was my lack of experience of relationships and. Or, you know, relating or kind of like knowing myself or having an idea, having a sense of self, relating with other people on a, you know, more emotional, intimate way. It was like my experience was I'm feeling, you know, meeting somebody, liking them, you know, feeling feelings for them, and then now I'm in a relationship with them, and then I've been in the relationship this whole time, you know, and so just kind of, I don't know, made sense, I guess, that, like, relationship escalator thing. But it was a mess for me because I was like, but wait, but I'm already in a relationship, you know, and I have these deep feelings for this person. How can I have the feelings for another person? You know? And what does that mean? And so I think it was more like questioning myself. It was. I felt so bad for it. I was like, oh, my gosh.
- [40:58]
Courtney Brain
Oh, I muted myself. As someone who has, you know, five kids and a husband. Right. I would think that you wouldn't have to worry about that. Thought of, like, I think they use this example of, just because I have another kid doesn't mean I love this one less. Right? Yeah, it's love you as a loving person. Anyone who comes into that sphere that is your presence is going to, you know, hopefully, if they're in your bubble, like, they're in your bubble, so they get to receive that fully. And you mentioned earlier working with sensitive people and identifying yourself as a sensitive person. So, like, I imagine that you can feel overwhelmed by the joy, the love, the pleasure, the presence of. And it can be just intense. It's not bad. It's just that it's intense and that sort of like something that you're facing among the, oh, I'm in love with this person. I have intense feelings for this person. Oh, my God, I'm having intense feelings for this person. And is it just in feeling that intensity that maybe feels a little bit, I guess, rocky for you?
- [42:07]
Melissa Lysane
Yes, absolutely. It. All of those things. So it. I think, see, yes. Being a parent, that is one. One thing that helped me to kind of, you know, work through that. I was like, wait, I got experience here. I do have experience here. Like, give myself some credit. That is one thing that definitely helped me as well as, you know, I mentioned, like, my connection with my best friend. Like, I just absolutely love her. Granted, it's different. You know, we're not having a sexual relationship or romantic relationship, but I still have these, like, deep, intense feelings for my friend, you know, and it was like, we don't do that with friendships, you know, but somehow we do it in that kind of anyway. But, yes. No, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
- [42:57]
Courtney Brain
I was gonna ask. Do you think that that's because, like, sex is a vehicle of expression. It can be an opportunity to release, connect, merge, share space, and, like, create and play with tension and then release it. Whereas with our friendships, there might not be tension building. There might not be a need for release, necessarily. Because I'm thinking about, you know, with my friends, right? Like, when we hang out, like, if we're playing Call of Duty or if we're going out, right? Like, it's usually, I would say, a mutual event task thing that's happening that we're participating in that I think is. And this is me. I've never said this before, so, like, bear with me to get this out. But the. The release, the connection, the tension isn't necessarily with one another directly, but it's more. So the thing that we're focused on. So we're focused on having a good time. Man, we had a great time. This was fun. Like, that's the intimacy, at least for me, with my friends, it's like we're doing things. When we get a win in Call of Duty. Like, that's like the, I would guess, equivalent of having. I don't even feel right to say that with someone that you are able to have, like, that release with. Like, the tension is in the connection. It's in the emotional entanglement. It's in the learning each other. It's in the doing for each other. It's in the sexual expression. Whereas, like, with the friendships, you know, we're. Yeah, we're doing activities, and when the activity has been completed, there's that after. So is that. Is that. I don't know if you. Again, I've never said this before, so.
- [44:46]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah, I, I, I swear I heard something that describes what you're talking about. So somewhere. And I don't, I, I couldn't find, I wouldn't find it, but it was like, yeah, how friendships. I think actually they were talking about friendships with men versus friendships with women. But you know. Oh, you know. Yeah, and, and, but it was saying something about that. So. No, I think you make really great points. I think that this idea of like tension is, there's, that's something that is, that is real, you know, this tension versus the opportunity to release and however you do it, you know. But there's like this, this flow of energy that gets to happen with the friendships. I think, you know, that maybe sometimes always doesn't happen in sexual, emotional romantic relationships. There's this like this tension or this not this kind of ability to just flow. Okay.
- [45:47]
Courtney Brain
You saying that just kind of made me picture this. But I think about, with friendships you're kind of aligned already, right? Like you're not more so getting to know you just look up and you've been friends with somebody for a long time and they're just like a part of your world. Right. Whereas relationships, I don't think I ever worry about losing a friend, but I worried about losing a relationship. Right. And my friendships, I'm learning that importance of being able to have what I have in my friendships, in my relationships. And even that isn't something that's really like easy. It's always going to be a challenge to get to know someone new and for you to introduce yourself to someone. But there is something to be said for the intimacy of non sexual relationships. Relationships where both parties don't want to have sex with each other versus sexual relationships.
- [46:46]
Melissa Lysane
Yes. And so I want to bring that back to kind of something I said earlier was this like, but me, I always, you know, I have a tendency to like whatever I'm experiencing, it's, it's a, it's a thing, it's a spiritual thing. And so I think it, there's levels of, where there's different types, right. And different degrees of like levels of friendship. The friendship that I have with like what I best friend, even though we hate that word and we just don't have a word that fits us, but with her, you know, I don't have that same like that's not how I do friendships with all my friends, I would be exhausted. I could, I wouldn't be able to, I don't have that many friends to that extent and that level because of that. But even with the Friends, even though it's not to that extent, still kind of the friend people that I call friends and have around, you know, even though I'm not the best, keeping in touch all the time, and I still carry this, like, want to at least have this some level of depth with them, you know. So even though I said all of that about, like, friendships, there gets to be this, like, flow and then relationships, not so much. Well, with me, even in my friendships, there still can be this experience of tension. And I think this just speaks to, like, who I am maybe, or whatnot. But. But there's still. Yeah, there is still a difference. I think there's like. There's something that just feels so visceral and like, puts. Puts me in survival mode, you know, when it comes to, like, these romantic, Sexual, Romantic relationships versus friendships, I may still, you know, be concerned or like, oh, could this friendship change? Could I. Could I lose this person? Like, I've had that experience before, but there's. There's. There's like, more. I'm able to allow that more somewhere here or not feel like, as. It might not feel as visceral where, like, something here is. Is, you know, is different. But I wanted to. To go back to your questions about, like, why was it so messy for me, I have. Maybe. Maybe this is a thing. I've never said this either. So I'm kind of saying if this. I'm here maybe, you know, again, I have more experience with friendships. Even though I feel like even that is a little bit, like, iffy. I've always kind of felt that I've a little socially awkward or just this, you know, kind of struggle on the social level sometimes overthinker and all this stuff and social anxiety and whatnot. But there's, you know, some. There's some. There's some. There's more experience there. Whereas, like, with this. When the first time that I felt like, these intense feelings for somebody that wasn't my husband, it was. It was. It did, it did. It rocked me. It was like, whoa, what is this? And I felt very guilty of. About it, you know, and it was messy because I was like, what does this, all this mean? And, you know, you were talking about, like I said, mentioned, like, over the years. Now I'm in an exploration phase where it's like some things I was kind of just like, going through the motions. Being a wife and being married was a big part of the going through the motions type of thing. You know, a lot of parts of that was. Was. And so there it Was. It was like, yeah, I felt like I wasn't a good wife. I felt like I was a bad wife. You know, I felt like I was not being loyal to my husband. I felt like, you know, all of these things and. But also, I think a big part of why I felt messy was because I didn't know really, that I didn't really have that experience of like, oh, you're lusting after somebody. You're. You're not trying to be with them, you don't want to be with them. You're not like, you know, but me, I was like, no, these feelings, maybe, you know, but then I was like, well, no, I just. I'm enjoying these feelings. But I think because my husband got scared for a second, you know, it was all confusing. It was so confusing. And I don't think I had any enough of a knowing of myself and a sense of myself to be like, hey, love. Hey, babe. Like, it's. Don't worry. It's not. I'm not trying to. I'm not wanting to leave you. You know, like, this is. I'm just. This is, you know, a new experience. It's. It's fun, whatever. I. I think I didn't have that awareness within me enough. So much. So then I was like, wait, do I. Am I in love with this person? And. And then, you know, eventually I was like, no, I'm not in love with this person. I just, you know, it's lustful. It's. It's fun. It's great. It's. I. I enjoying this person, but I'm not trying to be with this person. I don't want to have, you know, necessarily want to have a relationship, although I could, you know, it's possible. And I'm not. Definitely not trying to leave my husband either. So that's kind of where some of the messiness was, too. There was a lot of guilt and shame and embarrassment there. And it's like, yeah, can we talk.
- [52:10]
Courtney Brain
A little bit about that? The word choice is what stands out again, just choosing your husband every day. And there's something about. I. I think I use this for myself when I talk about, like, beating the game and then being able to go on side quests. Right? Like, you've got your. You've. You've done the things. You have the family, you have the husband, and y' all are so secure with one another that you're able and willing to have relationships outside of your marriage, like, with each other, apart from each other. And so how does that. It seems like there's pressure and expectations or maybe like unconsciously trying to navigate another person's expectations for them and that, that's reducing your ability to just be present with whatever the relationship is, right. Without there just being. Okay, yeah, you want to label it lustful. But one of the things again that we talk about with stigma and identity, right, Is this over identification of blank. Right? So in this case it might be, rather than being present, over identifying as a wife, and it's like, oh, but I'm a wife, I'm not supposed to also be a girlfriend. Like I'm supposed to, you know what I'm saying? Like, is that, is that making sense?
- [53:35]
Melissa Lysane
Okay, yeah, that was. Yeah, that was a. Yeah, that was my experience, you know, kind of the over identification of being a wife. And what does that mean? And you know, this not allowing myself to just be present with what is experience was having to being quickly, quick to label it, name it, make it, you know, make, make it this or make it that to try to make it sense either one way or another, you know, for whoever's expectations, my own, whatever, all of that. So yes, absolutely. It was all of that. All of that resonates. And also, and this is. Sometimes I'm like, sometimes it's hard to talk about my relationship with Wayne and our experience with non monogamy because it's 22 years. And when I tell one, it could even be a small part, although this was a big part. There's like so many other, so much other background information that sometimes I feel like, oh, maybe this, you know, if this background was, if I shared this, maybe, you know, help to make more sense.
- [54:41]
Courtney Brain
But.
- [54:43]
Melissa Lysane
It'S hard to do that, you know, in such a small amount of time. But.
- [54:48]
Courtney Brain
Does the fact that Wayne has always been there, do you think that that contributes to anything in regards to like how much capacity you have for other relationships? And I asked this because I think that what I see is that people who've been in their longest term relationships, there's so much of an anchor, so much security that it also allows for the freedom to be able to explore and maybe get your heart broken and know that at the end of the day, like you got home base to come back to, whereas there's not like the traumatization of the shitty experiences that people have with the dating world being what kind of shapes the way that you engage for the sake of finding your person. Right. So do you think that there's anything to be said for like you not having any or many like jaded Experiences that shape how you view Wayne. Whereas with Wayne, your husband, that kind of sets the bar and expectations, really. Not expectations, but just sets the standard for what you do and don't deal with.
- [56:01]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah, absolutely. It has, it definitely can be that, like, safety, Safety net, that safe space that, you know, that opportunity to go out and explore. Because I kind of have this, you know, like almost a safe haven here or whatnot with Wayne. But we had to get to that, you know, and even though we were non monogamous, even though we had been together for, I mean, at this time, like kind of the stories that I'm telling or the little bit that I've been sharing, this was like maybe, I don't know, 2016 almost, you know, between seven to 10 years ago or whatever. And so we were, yeah, we, we, even though we had that level of much experience, we still were also dealing with a lot of kind of monogamous ways within our non monogamy and trying to kind of figure all of that out. So yeah, we had to, we had to get there. We're in a much more secure place today. But at that point, you know, we were still working our way there. And why I mentioned kind of like the extra background information and all that good stuff was because, you know, at that time we, we shifted from doing, kind of doing this more swinging together, you know, doing everything together experience into kind of dating and exploring separately. A big part of that was kind of our experience and struggle with post, like my. Me experiencing postpartum depression and, you know, kind of the shifts in our, in our sex life and, you know, and so we leaned into that and I wouldn't say we were like, yeah, let's do this. You know, it was a little bit. There was some hesitation there, it was a little, there was a little reluctance there on both of our parts, but we were like, maybe this is a path that we can explore in our relationship. Maybe we can kind of open things up and not restrict ourselves to exploring and experiencing things just together. And so that was kind of a little bit messy at first too, but there was kind of that and then, you know, broken agreements and in the mix as well with that first experience, you know, and so there was a lot of these, like, layers that we were experiencing all at once that felt pretty chaotic, that essentially blew the relationship up, but then was kind of the, the path for us to being more secure today.
- [58:54]
Courtney Brain
How long have you been openly non monogamous? Like through the Instagram page?
- [59:03]
Melissa Lysane
I would say maybe around like pandemic time. I Think is when I started the page. Yeah. So maybe like has.
- [59:14]
Courtney Brain
Has that influenced anything like how you show up or how you practice non monogamy or. Or the way that you share. Is there any sort of pressure to get it right or to only share certain things?
- [59:28]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah, absolutely, for sure. Although I try to like I always see, I always want to speak to the hard parts, you know, and speak to the messy parts. And sometimes I think I even maybe do it to you don't say too much but like. Yeah, lean into that side and I don't know, maybe kind of like as an overcompensation to make sure that I'm not, you know, romanticizing us and non monogamy and all of that good stuff. So I could sometimes even, you know, celebrate it a little bit more. Celebrate kind of these aspects of this. But yeah, absolutely. There's definitely some pressure there. Often Wayne and I experienced that a lot in, you know, at first and kind of when we first started to put things out there, trying to navigate like when we were in our and really dealing with some stuff and then still trying to make content and still trying to work with people and that was like one of the hardest things for me. That felt so hard. But yeah, we admit been a journey to navigate. Like how do we do that? How much do we share? When do we share? You know, because even though we want to be authentic and real, when you're in it, it didn't always feel like the best time to be, you know, authentically and like openly sharing too what we were going through because we hadn't yet given ourselves the space and the time to process these things or whatnot. So yeah, it's tricky. It can be tricky for sure.
- [61:04]
Courtney Brain
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate getting to hear like so much of your experience and also the. I think one of the biggest takeaways for me personally is just like that. That spiritual component. Like it, it is a show. And I think that everything can be a spiritual practice or presence practice for anybody who maybe doesn't like that word. Looking at how your relationships, you know, are mirrors in your face and how our identities can really be something that puts who we think we are in our face. And then we got to kind of address it or either address it or we avoid it. Right. So being able to bring presence into that engagement, being something that allows for us to find who we are. When you talk about that three months months, I think it was where it seemed like this was like the outcome of burnout. It makes me think about how Important it is that we take care of ourselves. And I say take care of ourselves with air quotes because it's not always just a bath bomb, going to get your nails done, pedicure, massage, like taking care of ourselves means curating spaces where we can see ourselves as well as be seen. I think that identity validation is probably one of the, the thing that people are going to. It's going to. The thing that people are going is a thing that people are going to hear me say more than anything else. And I'm experiencing that right now for myself as I, I moved back home to St. Louis, Missouri and I was there and I got to let things out that needed to be let out. And I recognized a heavy imbalance in my life of work, work, work, work, work. And there wasn't any time for rest, there wasn't any time for play. And when I got back home, it was very difficult for me to work. So all I could do was rest. Right. And in that, I think that I got to see myself outside of the identification with work. And in doing so, I was like, well, what else is important to me? Oh, rest. What else is important to me? Oh, play. And finding that trifecta of work, Rest, play is what I think was the overall message for me coming out of Burnout. And so it's very, it's really cool to hear like your experience of like finding that you're challenged even in your relationships, to see yourself and be yourself, because I very much can relate to that experience myself. And I hope that that's, you know, that maybe other people have gotten other things out of our time together and being able to share here, but that's what I got and I wanted to make sure you knew that. And also I want to just hold the space for you to share any final thoughts and let people know how they can connect with you.
- [64:11]
Melissa Lysane
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing what you got out of it and for making the connection to your own experiences. Yeah, I hope, I hope, yeah, some people can get something good out of this. I do, I think my final thoughts is that I want to be so, having an honest moment here. I imagined that we would, after this, after you stop recording that we would be like, so, how was it? How did it go? And then I'd be like, oh, it was okay. You know, I, I, there was moments where just felt a little thrown off. Not anything that you did or said, you know, just me, myself just feeling a little self conscious and just kind of like, ah, this is, you know, this, this, this one didn't go as I was imagining it would in my head and just like, ah, feeling a little self conscious or whatnot. And I was like, you know what, don't wait till after we stop recording to say that maybe you just share it here. And so that's what I wanted to do is just kind of just, I don't know, acknowledge with you as part of the show that, that, yeah, just, just that mirror stuff that, that stuff that I was talking about, like, was happening here, you know, and it was like, oh my gosh, Melissa, you're, you're, you're babbling, you're not making sense. You're, you know, it's like this. I can't just be sometimes, right? It's just like, it's hard to just be present and to just allow and to just feel and to just let it be and to say it's like this. I'm in my head often, you know, and so I know that whoever can relate is like, I don't have to name it anything or whatever. They're just gonna hear this one very moment and they're gonna be like, damn, I like her. Or yes, I feel that too. I know exactly what she's talking about, even though she may not be saying a very clear thing. And I just wanted to use this moment to just for myself, for me to be like, Melissa, wow. Yeah, that was hard for you. This, this, this interview was hard for you. And I'm probably going to be thinking about it for the next hour after this. You're like, dang it, it's not how I wanted it to go, but it's fine. And I wanted to let it be and, you know, and just thank myself for still showing up and, and continuing with this interview with you. So thank you.
- [66:46]
Courtney Brain
Thank you. All right, now, how can people connect with you?
- [66:50]
Melissa Lysane
You can find me at Shades. Underscore of underscore. Nonmonogamy on Instagram is probably the best way to reach me. Yeah.
- [67:00]
Courtney Brain
All right, if you can stick around for a little bit, we can debrief afterwards, but I'll go ahead and close.
- [67:05]
Melissa Lysane
Thank you.
- [67:06]
Courtney Brain
That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive Positive people. Please like rate, review, share, subscribe to donate to this non profit organization, this podcast. We are doing what we can to minimize stigma in all aspects of life. And we do so through presence. Just how you heard me. Again, I'm gonna keep saying identity validation. I always mentioned that when I started this, I would consistently see that 36 of people with herpes were experiencing suicide ideation. As a result of of their diagnosis. And what I've learned over the years is that it's been an invalidation of identity and over identification with sexuality and their sexual health status that has led to this. And what this space does is validate these people's identities and give them hope for being able to find wholeness amongst that fragmentation that stigma causes. So supporting us looks like doing that. If you somebody who has access to grants, if you write grants, if you got a fund of some sort, if your job giving out donations or something, help me, help me. All right, so yeah, I will. Well, y' all will hear from me next week. If you haven't already. Please sign up for the newsletter. We have a weekly her. No, not weekly. We have weekly herby. We have weekly something positive for positive people Events events. Mondays at 7:30pm Central Time. The stigma support group is Monday. The men's purpose group is on the second Monday. Third Monday I rest or move something around in the event that I'm traveling. And then the fourth Monday is usually like some type of a live thing. So we're going to make this happen. So stay on the newsletter for updates on and when to beware. I'm trying to do these Tuesday yoga classes, but it's a little hard when ain't nobody showing up. So I need you all to express some interest or something. Let me know what you all trying to do, all right? But until next time, stay present, all right?