Ali (3:28)

Yeah. Is it simple? I think I often talk about the movie, everything, everywhere, all at once. So I'm kind of like a pinball machine where I jump back around and I'm in my car and something's going great and I hear an awesome song and then another song comes on and I'm crying and I'm in my feelings. And so I am fine. I've had a good day and. But I am like in a place of resistance right now. And so sometimes it's hard for me to get to the things where I have a good day. Does that make sense?

Courtney Brain (4:11)

It does. What I heard in that is that, you know, you're fine until you're not.

Ali (4:17)

Yeah. And it's. It feels a bit more spur. It feels kind of sporadic right now. It feels inconsistent.

Courtney Brain (4:24)

Yeah. Now, we talked before when we had our reconnecting session about just what it could feel like for you to just kind of share where you are right now in life. And one of the things that we talked about was that you are currently. Like, people ask you, like, how are you suicide ideation wise? Or whatever you said. Yeah, you want to kill yourself. Like, you said this to me and I. There was something that you said too in our conversation about like feeling supported. Like you're objectively supported. But it's different when there's someone who kind of like gets it, who understands. Can you speak a little bit to that or am I, am I making sense?

Ali (5:14)

Yeah, yeah, you're making sense. I think that there's a difference. There's a difference in the question of like, how are you? Or like are you wanting to end your life today or are you having suicidal ideations? Those kinds of questions and check ins feel different coming from a person that I have a relationship with. From my dad, from my best friends, from my roommate. They feel, it feels supportive from those people because we have a relationship and they're not shying away from something that might be hard. And I think they tend to not like directly ask me that all the time, but we're in consistent enough communication that when people ask me how I'm feeling, if we are consistently communicating, then it feels like it's coming from a loving place. What feels frankly annoying is getting calls from Medical professionals and mental health professionals and every time I'm a veteran. So when I talk about the VA probably a lot throughout this, I'm referring to the Department of Veterans affairs and specifically the medical system within that. So when I have appointments through the va, you know, and they're like, well, because I'm flagged as a high risk person at this point, then people have to ask me that, like at, on every call, not every, not my scheduling calls. Right. But any kind of call where I'm meeting with a medical provider, they're asking, you know, are you thinking of harming yourself or others today? And I have to answer. And to me that question coming from those places is empty. It's not from a place of care. It's, I'm, It's a box to be checked.

Courtney Brain (7:05)

Yeah. And you feel that people feel that people feel when it's like you're checking a box or you're actually there and present with them. And I don't know how to verbalize yet exactly what it is that a person can get out of just being witnessed with presence. But it sounds like there is no presence in these intake forms in the care of the providers that are, quote, just doing their job or they're following a process. Because sometimes all we need is for somebody to be a human with us.

Ali (7:37)

Yeah. Yeah. And the number of times that I've like, this is not helpful and I've gotten the response of like, this is process or this is protocol. And I'm like it out of here with that. I don't, I don't give a frankly if it is process or protocol. I'm not a machine. So this mechanized thing that you've created, this structure you've created isn't is for structures, it's not for people.

Courtney Brain (8:05)

Yeah. And I think we can forget that. Like as people who are in the healing field, the educator field, mental health coaching, therapy, like, it, it, you get so in the school of things that you're disconnected from the people. And people ask me all the time, even my mom, she's like, you should go to school and be a therapist. Just because I like, I listen to her and I respond from a place of not being on my phone or scrolling or doing other things. And she feels like whatever it is that people think that they get out of therapy happen. And it's like, no, like I didn't do anything. I just listened to you. And that feeling is something that I think a lot of us are disconnected from. We don't have a sense of connection, a Sense of community. And that was part of why I made the offer for us to do this podcast episode. To talk about experience, just to have that witnessed on a larger scale than just me. Because, like, cool. We can connect once a week, we can have conversations. Like, you can feel good temporarily, but like, where's the line between me being something that you or someone that you use for coping versus there actually being some healing? And I believe that that happens through just being witnessed and witnessing, like, what it is that you're actually going through. Like, able to take the mask off and put yourself in a state of being able to either connect, to connect or be connected to, or to not be connected with and connected to.

Ali (9:40)

Yeah, there. There's something that you said in there where you were talking about your mom and like, you know, deep listening and tick. Nhat Hanh has a mindfulness series of books.

Courtney Brain (9:53)

How do you say his name again? Please say his name again because you've mentioned him before.

Ali (9:56)

Yeah, Thich Nhat Hanh. I don't know if that's how you pronounce it. That's what I'm saying. So if I completely butcher it. Sorry. For every person that heard that and it's like, no. But he has this mindfulness series of books that are like, how to love, how to fight, how to sit, how to relax, how to eat, and it's these bite sized pages of just mindfulness practice. And I think it's in the book how to Fight, but that could be wrong where there's a part where, like, when you're in conflict with somebody and you stop and you have a moment where you look at the other person and you say, like, do you think I understand you enough? Like, do you think that I am understanding you? Because a lot of times I think that in conflict, we feel like we're hitting a wall because we don't feel understood. And I think that one of the reasons that those questions feel empty, coming from a medical provider I have no relationship with, is because they don't know about me, but my friends do. So the solutions that you're about to offer me have no context. There's no way for them to be rooted in my. In personal, like, individual life. It doesn't, you know, it's like a cookie cutter thing that you're tossing out and seeing if it sticks. But it's not always for me. It's not that it's never for me, but it's. It's different. It's a different pathway to get there. Yeah.

Courtney Brain (11:37)

Now let's I'm gonna just ask the question, are you feeling suicidal today?

Ali (11:46)

There was a point earlier in the day where the answer to that was yes. I think, like, I'm always kind of feeling connected to that at this moment, but I don't feel. We talked about it a little bit, but I don't feel the urgency of it today.

Courtney Brain (12:05)

Yeah, yeah. And what's interesting. So I. I'll be transparent. It's been my anger. My anger that I think has fueled the longevity of something positive for positive people. I've not done anything for eight years except for play sports, but for this, like, people ask me, what's your end goal? What's your desired outcome? Right? And like, I'll make up to answer the question, but, like, it would be nice for people with herpes and I want to kill themselves anymore, right? And it goes beyond just herpes. And I think that I try and overextend myself into these other spaces to fit in so that I can have an impact. And what I found is, like, the more that I'm just really grounded in why I do this and remind myself that fuel source of, like, anger that someone would get a bump on their genitals and not want to be here anymore. And the anger of having family members and close relatives that have attempted or threatened or even completed suicide, for use of the language, it's. It's been something that's made me angry. Not in the sense of like, I'm going to scold the people that, you know, have suicide ideation. Like, I. I hear you. Like, I put myself in the shoes of a person who has herpes, believes that they're never going to have connection with anybody again. And the closest experience that I have to it, and please tell me, you know, jump in if this is right or wrong. I remember I did acid one time, and this time that I did acid, I was. I was great. I was having a good time. I didn't even know that it had kicked in. I went out, I went home. I got home with a partner of mine and we started to have sex. And this was the, like, peak, best first stroke that I have probably ever had. It was like divine. I was like, oh, my God, this feels awesome. And I immediately just started sobbing. Like, I'm laying on top of her crying. I gotta grab like a bath towel. I'm blowing my nose and stuff. And I cried because I was like, I'm gonna spend the rest of my life chasing that feeling that I just had and I might never get it. Is this what people who want to kill themselves experience. I don't know if I ever said this much of that story out loud. Like, I used to like, tell it in a funny way, but, like, contextually, I think that that's an important detail and it seems like a really good place to, to say that. But to have experienced, like, good, and then to know that the pursuit of that is going to always come with suffering because you might not ever get that, that's fucking torture. And now, like, since that experience, I think I've had a lot more empathy with people who struggle with mental health or who have addictions or who, who just can't make a choice or get the outcome that they want.

Ali (15:25)

Yeah, I don't know. I think that for me, the, how do I explain this? It's less about like a high or like, oh, have I peaked? And like, I can't ever go back to that. I think it's a hybrid of, I mean, grief, anger, passion, disappointment, I guess, in relation to grief and exhaustion and burnout. And there have been times in my life where like, I think that I was in this moment of, this is the most beautiful moment. Like I, I, I used, There's a time in my life where I would get done with a day and I would look back at it and I would be like, kind of reflecting, oh, I woke up today, I saw a friend, I sat outside, I felt the sun. And I would be like, that was a perfect day. And I think in those moments though, I had more financial stability and I was in better physical health. And there are all of these factors that combine into this perfect storm of well being. And so for me, it's less about the highs and the lows. And it's like looking at this Venn diagram of my life and realizing that like some of the circles aren't even connected to the center anymore, if that makes sense.

Courtney Brain (17:29)

Yeah. So you wrote and you did a homework assignment that I asked you to do, which was to like, draw or show me what suicide looks like to you. This feels like a good place to.

Ali (17:41)

Yeah.

Courtney Brain (17:42)

Mention that. Did the writing have anything to do with suicide? Is that why you asked about it earlier?

Ali (17:47)

Yeah, it did. It did a little bit. Yeah. And so I go to a writing workshop, a thing called Write Shop, once a week on Friday mornings at 8am here in Indy. And I, we get like a prompt at the beginning. It's typically something introspective. It's less creative writing and more like reflective writing. And then we write for 20, 30 minutes and then we have time to share at the end. And so this past prompt was truth. And then there's a page of like, the rest of the page has a handful of questions. And you can look at the questions and answer them, but I tend to not look at them. I just get the theme and then my brain kicks off and then I go. And so this is what I had written, although not in the order that I wrote it in, because my brain doesn't really necessarily work in a linear way. It, like jumps around, and then when I'm rereading it at the end, I kind of put it in the right order. Does that make sense? So this is the. This. The theme of this one was truth. I once told my friend Ben that I didn't really think there was one single universal truth. And he replied, isn't that a universal truth? I am. I am often.

Courtney Brain (19:10)

Sorry.

Ali (19:12)

You said, we're not. We got to stop there.

Courtney Brain (19:14)

That threw me off. I was like, oh, that was okay.

Ali (19:19)

Like, that's. Yeah. And I think about that. I think about that all the time.

Courtney Brain (19:24)

Okay, I'm sorry.

Ali (19:25)

No, that's okay.

Courtney Brain (19:28)

Because you said. I was like, oh, that's a universal truth for real. Okay.

Ali (19:32)

Right. He said, yeah. He was like, isn't that a universal truth? And I said, I'm gonna think on that one. I am often frustrated by our cultural worship of science and our model of medicine that places scientific study at the highest value of knowledge. When did we begin to be conditioned to place so much truth and deep knowing outside of ourselves and outside of our bodies? I recently did an overnight inpatient stay at the VA when I was suicidal, and I feel like it made things worse. I am tired of other people telling me what I need is if I do not live inside of my own body. There are plenty of cultures that do not have words equivalent to depression, but rather center conversations around stress and well being and hardship around where it shows up in the body. Why is it so hard to find people who will practice that model of care? My truth is rooted in my body, and therefore tapping into my pain and listening deeply to the tension will surely help me to unlock its wisdom. Audre Lorde said, the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. While I do believe that there are compassionate people working in the va, I also think that the VA is designed as an impossible system to keep veterans incapacitated. Because who knows more intimately the horrors of war and the result of corporate politics, there are likely few people better equipped to challenge the core of a government than Those who are used as tools to execute its evils.

Courtney Brain (21:18)

What does this mean to you?

Ali (21:24)

I think, I think it's both a recognition of, it's like. Oh, it's a processing of like what I would call dehumanization and, or rehumanization or homecoming. Returning to yourself where you have been severed along the way from yourself. How much of that is from choices that you've actively made? Right. So as a person that is now several years sober after 14 years of alcoholism, I made a lot of choices that severed me from myself. So I'm not going to sit here and be like the government. Nah. I mean, I'm gonna do that a little bit. But it's not only that. Right? It's not just that thing, it's not just these social pieces, but there are a lot of cultural aspects and community aspects to depression and connection and suicide and well being and health care and all of the housing. Like all of these things have an influence on somebody's experience. And so I think that this is me processing. Like if the VA wanted people to get better, not just the va, the VA isn't isolated in its experience of like systems of healthcare. I would argue it's a little bit bigger than that here. If, if we wanted people to get better, we could make that happen. Everything that exists right now, we made up. We made it all up. So when I look at things like the master's tool will never dismantle the master's house, like you, you keep people incapacitated to keep them from dreaming and creating and building a new world. And so like, if you wanted people to get better, you would, but you hold the power and you want to keep that power. So why would you make it possible for people to challenge that? And so it's a mix of like, that acknowledgement and recognizing that sometimes I was the one that hurt my body and I was the one that betrayed myself and I was the one that made the choices to, to continue to sever from myself. So it's like kind of the, a marriage of those things, the internal and the external.

Courtney Brain (24:23)

I think if you don't have choice and you make a choice, is that really a choice?

Ali (24:33)

Are you like, kind of more. Is this more in the context of the alcoholism?

Courtney Brain (24:38)

No, no, just in general, like, because I hear you. Yeah, yeah, I hear accountability. Right. Yet there's like, I, I, I, I don't think that there are, I, I don't try and do extremes if there is one extreme. Like, I think that what I see for myself is even A balancing of whatever that extreme. So to me, an extreme that I just witnessed was, yes, some of the severing of self was my choice. But I wonder, with limited options of the choices that you have in front of you, right, if you had different options, you'd be able to make a different choice. So for you to choose based on the choices that you have in front of you, I wonder if we can even really call that choice. It's just some philosophical. I'm on my.

Ali (25:37)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Courtney Brain (25:39)

Toni is mode.

Ali (25:42)

I think that there's, like, There's a bit of that when I look at my military experience and. And going into the military, which turned out to be something that I got in and said, holy shit, is not a line. I got to get out. And now I'm wrestling with my participation in something that I think is horrific and unfathomable and, like, at this huge scale. I think that when I look at the choices of leaving and how I maybe feel as though I could have left or should have left at a different point in a different time, I think that there's a piece of me that's like, man, I should have done this better. And then there's another piece of me that felt like that wasn't a choice. Like, I. That option that I'm looking and saying I should have chosen, that wasn't a choice. I think it's a little bit different with some of the other things. I think that for. You know, I've tried to navigate sobriety several times throughout my life, and it's usually after some sort of bottoming out of something, like hitting the bottom, like, hitting rock bottom. And, like, something horrible happens. I get in trouble, I do something dumb, I blow up a relationship. I make some choice and make an ass of myself in front of people that I respect. You know, something happens, and then I'm like, oh, I gotta figure that, you know, I'm never drinking again. I gotta figure it out. I'm gonna get sober. And then I start down that path, and then I bargain with myself, and I think, I can do it. I can't do it. And I just go back into it. And I think the only reason that sobriety stuck this time is because when I originally made the choice, it was rooted in love and care. It was rooted in a decision to make a healthier choice, not, oh, my gosh, I've done something stupid, and I have to figure it out. And so, like, there's choice in that, but, like, the root of the decision is different.

Courtney Brain (28:02)

The intention right so the intention of sobriety from that place of love has also been sustainable for you. It's allowed you to maintain sobriety. Is that accurate?

Ali (28:14)

That is accurate. And that is also though why it's really. I want to drink all the time right now. Like, I want to drink so often, especially in the last several months of my life. And for somebody that has used alcohol in many ways, one of those being a tool of self harm. I feel very aware that if I were to drink right now, I feel that if I were to drink right now, I would end my life. It would be the catalyst to that choice.

Courtney Brain (28:57)

Is this. And I hate that there's not a great way to ask this, but why, why don't you. What keeps you here for you to deal with and struggle with? I want to kill myself. And also like, I. I want to drink. I want to use this as a way of blank what you hear.

Ali (29:23)

Well, the first really ugly answer is that I haven't. I care a lot about other people and I haven't figured out a way to do it that wouldn't be traumatic for somebody to find. And as somebody that has witnessed first responders showing up to traumatic things over and over and over again, I'm very aware of the impact that something like that has. So I'm like, you know, there's a piece of it that is that of. I just haven't figured out the right way yet. And if I did, maybe that would happen. There's another piece that's like, I'm surrounded by people that give a shit. And I'm very. I'm very blessed to live with a roommate who is a beautiful, beautiful person. And when she comes home and I've had a bad day where a single minor inconvenience has put me over the edge, where, like, something that normally would be fine has set me off on this spiral. And I'm. I'm losing my mind. And I get into bed because I'm scared if I get out of my bed, then I'm going to do something stupid. So she comes home, my doors open to my bedroom, and I am just weeping in my bed. I'm in a ball. And she will say, can I come in? And I'll say yes. And then she will just get in bed and hold me. Literally just hold me, wrap her arms around me as I cry, and just like sit with me in that. And not in a way that I think is me complaining to her about something and like, dragging her down. But she knows that she, I arguably is somebody that has had similar thoughts and experiences and has felt similarly to me. She gets it. She's been there, and she knows that my brain is on a loop, going in on itself, like, taking this simple mistake that I made, blowing it out of proportion, convincing me that, how could you, like, possibly do something that dumb? Right? It's going in. It's going in on itself. And she knows that she's not gonna, like, come in and talk me out of it. She's not gonna sit there and be like, you know, just love yourself. Like, she's not, you know, she's not gonna do those things that just. Just have a little bit more hope. Like, she's not trying to do that. You know?

Courtney Brain (32:05)

Have you tried yoga?

Ali (32:07)

Right. Like, she's do. She's not doing any of that. And the girl that I lived with in grad school did this as well. And for me, it was like, the most helpful thing, because a person isn't trying to change you. They're not trying to change where you're at. They're literally just holding you in. In where you are. And it's gonna make me cry. You can, you know, but to me, that's a communication of, like, I love you. Even now, even in this, even though I know you don't want to be here, I still love you.

Courtney Brain (32:49)

Have you ever struggled with suicidality in the past?

Ali (32:54)

Yes, and yes.

Courtney Brain (32:59)

And I want to ask what kind of support you got previously, if any.

Ali (33:05)

Not a lot in that moment. That. That's not true. There's. I'm thinking of, like, a couple specific times. The first time was in 2018, I think. 2018, early 2018, where I had come to the end of my. My military contract, and I knew I wanted to be out of the military. And I was going through what they call a med board, where, like, I have a medical issue. They're trying to resolve it. And in order to resolve that, I'm now held on active duty while we work through this medical thing so that they can pay for it and figure it out. And for me, that had been trapped me in indefinitely in a career field that I felt ethically against. And I felt like I was waking up every day and going into just, like, doing the worst harm of all time and then going home and, like, feeling horrible about it. And so I was like, I don't know how to get out of this. I don't know how to get out of this. I saw no way out. And so, you know, there was a night where I was partying with people or drinking I don't. I frankly don't remember, like, what the catalyst was to me saying I'm. I'm out. And I left the party, and I just drunkenly started, like, walking towards some train tracks and, like, a highway, thinking, I'll just get in front of a car. I'll just, like, step on these tracks. And I'm walking down the road to do this. And then I call a suicide hotline in route. And I was so drunk, the woman, like, could not understand me, and she couldn't figure out what I was trying to say to her, and. And I hung up on her. And. And then I randomly got contacted by a friend of mine that was in the military that was stationed on the other side of the world that happened to be awake at whatever crazy hour of the morning I was awake. And he ended up talking to me and kind of, like, talking me down from that moment until somebody could come and pick me up. And I went home, and I went to work the next day, and I could not even fake a smile. Like, I couldn't even pretend to be okay. Not only was I definitely, very obviously not okay, but I was incredibly hungover. I was so hungover and just in pain, and you're foggy. And I couldn't. And I was. Felt numb. I felt empty. And I had two different women pull me aside and say, something's going on. You look like, like, what is going on? And I had the moment of, like. Well, I was en route to kill myself last night. A friend talked me out of it, essentially, and now I'm at here again. Here I am again the next day doing the same thing in the same environment, and I just felt empty. And that was. I mean, I was seeing a therapist at the time and, you know, talk through some of it with the therapist that I had, but I didn't have any additional care, and I was still in the same environment that I was in. Leaving the military opened up a lot of things for me and opened kind of a door to, like, have a bit more hope in that. In that moment. Does that make sense?

Courtney Brain (37:07)

Yeah. I was gonna ask what you meant by open doors. Like, did it open up, like, wounds, or did it open up, like, opportunities? That's what I was about. That.

Ali (37:14)

Yeah. I just. It. It let me find people that felt more aligned. It let me find my people, like, leaving the military, going to grad school, and studying something that I'm passionate about, and being in a room full of people that are also passionate about that thing put me around, put me in an environment where. With like minded people where I didn't feel that way when I was in the military. Not that everybody thinks the same way. Right. I don't want to say that because that's not true. And there's like a very loud sentiment that I did not share within that culture. Yeah.

Courtney Brain (37:52)

Okay.

Ali (37:53)

I think the other time was in 2020. Sorry, you asked me about this and I'm rambling, but the other time, briefly, was in 2020, I came off of birth control during COVID And that was the time when I realized that I get into severe depression and suicidal depression the week before my period. So I started to see a cycle with my emotions and my capacity and my energy within the context of my menstrual cycle. And then I had that. I had a roommate that did the same thing. Like, I was like, if I get out of bed, I'm gonna try to hurt myself. And then she would just bring me tea or bring me food and get in bed with me.

Courtney Brain (38:42)

How do we know? Like, have you ever had this in, like, not really been serious? Like, how do we know to take it seriously and get you help or just lay with you, give you a hug and bring you tea or soup?

Ali (39:02)

What? For me, like, that is how you navigate it when it's serious. Like. Like when it feels overwhelmingly serious. I am, I am. So I. All of my energy is my brain fighting my brain. It's like the angel devil on each shoulder where my brain, inside of itself is like, kill yourself, stay alive. Kill yourself, stay alive, kill yourself, stay alive. Right? It's like this chaotic. Like the same brain. It's the same brain that is thinking, I get me out of this, get me out of this. I have to get out. I have to get out. And the same brain is also like, maybe you should call your mom and tell her that you're losing it. And if somebody doesn't give you a hug, something bad is going to happen. Like, it is that crazy moment of, like, it's the same brain. And in that moment, I'm not thinking, what am I going to eat for dinner? I'm not going to eat. Like, I. All of the other pieces that I need to take care of myself, which allow me more capacity to navigate my own brain. Like food and water and like, going for a walk. I had a friend during COVID that would just show up outside of my flat. Ali, I'm downstairs. We're going for a walk. There wasn't. Hey, do you want to go for a walk later? No. Ally, I am downstairs you're coming downstairs and we are going to go for a walk. And that was helpful. It's because I'm not in a place to make that choice. I'm overwhelmed. I'm burnt out. I'm fighting my own brain inside of myself. And so all of these other things that are seemingly simple are like, I can't fathom somebody being like, where do you want to go eat today? I don't want to be alive. Like, I can't pick where we go eat. So having support and basic functions is really helpful in those moments. And I think it opens up my capacity when you have food and you have water and you have sleep to be able to figure it out.

Courtney Brain (41:18)

Survival, the bare minimum. Like, it's. It's your. Your brain power, all of your vitality is going to being able to. Because a lot of things we can do without thinking, right? Digest, blink, breathe. But any action now becomes something of great effort that requires will, that requires an exertion of so much strength and energy that it is. The burnout maybe feels like an emotional pain. An emotional pain that there's only one way to get rid of. Is that accurate?

Ali (42:06)

Like the reflection of burnout, the reflection of.

Courtney Brain (42:10)

Of suicide. Like, I was. I'm sitting there and as I'm hearing you, like, what I'm hearing is like, to hold on to your sanity. Like you're trying to hold on to your sanity in a world that's all these contradictions, right? Like, we need freedom, but we also need safety. We need money, but also like, why the do we. Why should we have money? Money's made up, right? Like, we need community protection. How do we get that when everybody has to fight these battles of just getting up and going to work every day, feeding themselves, getting water, like the simplest task. I use air quotes when I say simple because are things that we need, right? Like, taking care of our needs is challenging. And now with that challenge, there's also the struggles of living in the world in. At least in America, where you got to go to work to barely make enough to live. And you find yourself in this cycle of I'm only living to work and working to live. Like that's what I have to do. And I don't have any opportunity to do what I want to do. So if this is my life for the rest of my life with the full. Am I doing here?

Ali (43:17)

Yeah, yeah. It feels. There are. There are times when it feels like I am claustrophobic and I'm like trapped in this thing and I just have to get the out of it. And that's what goes in my brain. Like, it's almost. I kind of describe it to you I think this way last week. But for me, there's less of this long plan. My experiences with suicide, suicidal ideations for within myself have not really been like, I'm going to make a plan, and then I'm gonna think about how to do it. It's like this impulsive thing that's like, I have to get the out of this right now. I have to get out. I have to get out. It's like this compulsion to, like, this is not working, and everything has to change, and it has to change right now.

Courtney Brain (44:12)

That's how I've thought of it. Right. Like, the textbook and the real life experience, they don't line up to me. And, like, no disrespect to the people who've done all this research and these studies and. But, like, I. I even think about this with people with herpes who do the advocacy. Right? Like, how often are y' all talking to people one on one to know that these are the experiences that people are having? So when it comes to the mental health, the depression, the suicide, the. The stre stress, the burnout and everything, if people are feeling unheard, how are we really getting the real stories and experiences? So when you just said, like, yeah, like, you're not gonna go, and I want to kill myself, let me go write out this plan, that. That doesn't make any sense to me. Like, it does feel like, oh, my God, how can I. How can I do this? Like, I. There's pills, there's a gun, there's rope. Like, I get that in the gaps where maybe you talk to someone and, you know, it. It comes up, you're like, yeah, I've thought about it, and I haven't done it. And then maybe there's like, more of a sense of urgency, of, oh, my God, I need to get on top of this. Let me get you some professional help. But if you want to do it, like, there's. There's nothing that can stop you from just doing it. But what's stopping you is that you have people around you that you care about that you do not want to hurt. You don't want to hurt these people, and that's sort of what you're holding on to. Or I can, I guess, say what's holding on to you and keeping you here.

Ali (45:47)

Yeah, I think in this moment, I think it's like right now, it's other people. And sometimes that feels Like a burden. And it feels like more affirming of the frustration of it all. Where like I wrote a, I wrote a poem about it like five, six years ago where I was like, I feel like I am on, attached to this life support machine and other people have the power and I'm only alive because other people want me to be here. And I have nothing for myself that is happening.

Courtney Brain (46:20)

I'm a timeout right here. And just say like, audience, when I say that Ali has this thing that Ali does with words and what is said, like that's an example of it to be able to. I, I was talking to someone recently, I was on a date and we were talking about like how I learn and I learned very well through metaphors. And like the poem, the metaphor that you just gave of like being on life support and everyone else around you is making a decision. Because I don't like, I imagine that you already don't feel alive, right? Like you feel alive when, when you're doing the things that make you feel alive. When you're connected to, when you're sharing a meal with someone, when you're with plants, when you're in nature and you don't have much of that because you have to go to punk ass work and you gotta make some punk ass money so you can feed yourself and, and be able to go to work the next day. And that's that existence sucks ass that exist. And I have so much more empathy and compassion for people who are struggling with suicide ideation. Also time in, I wanted to time out to just acknowledge the poetry bar that you just dropped. But time in to the fact that it seems like people are always talking at you or telling you like in the, in the intake forms, the mental health people, right? I think that they are asking you questions so that they can tell you what to do. And no one just asks Ali, what do you need? What do you need right now, right?

Ali (48:03)

And when I say when I am in a medical setting and I say what I need is like I'm in a mental health office, right? And I'm meeting with a psychologist and I'm saying what I need is money. What I need is help finding stable income. What I need, you know, like I've moved to a place that had nothing to offer with the way of my degree. And I looked and I got these jobs and then I got these jobs that crushed my soul and ran me into the ground. And then I tried a million different things and then I found things that I loved to do, but I Physically couldn't sustain them, or I was trying to piece five of them together and then I burnt out. Like, there's. It's not that those things don't exist, that I don't love to do things or that I don't have things that I love, but the way that I've been doing it is not sustainable. And it has cost me financially, like, my sanity. And. And so now I'm in a moment where I'm like, okay, well, I'm at a financial low point of my life and I don't have consistent or sustainable income, and I need help figuring those things out. Like, I would like to talk to somebody that can help me navigate debt. And so I know, okay, well, I have these two things. I'm in debt with this, or I have these payments or whatever. So how do I prioritize that? Like, how can I take more risk in this place financially in order to pay this other thing off? Like, I don't understand how that works. I'm not financially literate in that way. That's. I need information like that. Well, I'm not going to get those by trying my fifth, different kind of therapy, right? Like, I don't need nine more therapies. Having three therapies at one time is pretty enough, I think. And so when people say, what do you need? They're not in a place to, like, offer what I actually need.

Courtney Brain (50:18)

Yeah, it's like, hey, I need money. Oh, here, here are these pills. Here's how much they are. This will help you with not needing or not feeling like you need money anymore. Like, that's. That's the reality. Shit's getting expensive. Things cost money, and living. It has become a thing that's contingent on how much money you make. And not only how much money you make, but how you use the money you make.

Ali (50:42)

Right?

Courtney Brain (50:44)

Like.

Ali (50:45)

And like, there's. I. I can imagine that somebody would look at the things that I spend money on and be like, what helped me prioritize them. Like, say, okay, I see these things come up over and over and over again. This is not sustainable. If you have to do it, this has to. But, like, when I print off a bank statement and I'm like, I'm gonna make a budget. And I look at it, I look at this massive thing, and then I'm like, I don't know. Ah. And then I just shut down. And then. So to have somebody sit with you and help you through your finances, that is one example of, like, suicide prevention. That is a literal example of, like, Suicide prevention is not just mental health care is community building. It is food, it is shelter. It is sustainable, like living. It is environmental care. It is like, it's all of these other pieces. And I think that we put so much on individuals to figure it out. And then we care for individuals in a bubble without seeing them in the environment that they are in and understanding, okay, well, you want to do this thing and you. Maybe it sounds, you feel like you need help with this thing, but that's actually not even within your control. But this is. This is within your control. So this is a step that we can take. But when you're just in it, it's hard to piece those things out. So, like, it's not that I'm incapable of making a budget, but if I've been struggling with money for such a long time, I clearly, like, there's some. There's a barrier there. And so if somebody can help me navigate that barrier in a way that feels, you know, supportive, then I'm open to that by just, you know, you don't. You don't know how to find those people or those tools sometimes in crisis. Like, I'm in it now, and I need help.

Courtney Brain (52:49)

What the do these therapists do for you if, like, you go in here, you are able to tell them, hey, here's where I'm struggling. Like, a lot of people think money doesn't solve all your problems. And we talked about this too. Like, it'll solve a ton of the ones that I got right. So when you are in these sessions, like, you tell them you are suicidal, they just make you stay the night in the facility to, what, sleep it off and medicate you so that you, what, you. Your. Your stress levels out and you're not thinking about it in this moment? What happens? What happens when you admit yourself?

Ali (53:25)

Yeah, when I admitted to the va, I did an intake where people asked me all of these questions. I had a psychologist that didn't really say very much. She just gathered information. And then I spent the night there. Nobody spoke with me, really. And then I, as soon as I admitted as a person that, like, already felt like I didn't think it would be that helpful, I got in, I looked around me, I said, this is not what I need. And I immediately signed what they call an AMA against medical advice. So I requested immediately to leave against medical advice, and then I was held there through the night because they want 24 hours to process that request, which is why I submitted it immediately. So effectively, I stayed through the night and then I met with a psychologist in the morning who said, these are the different kinds of therapies and services that the VA has. It was like three pages of documents that were just like, all of you know, this is the PTSD clinic. And under the PTSD clinic there are these different peer support groups, there's a mindfulness group, there's a moral injury group, there's all of these different things and basically like an overview of all the services. And then they're supposed to assign you a social worker so that when you leave, this person can help you get placed into these different therapies and get all of these different consults for these different things that you're supposed to be doing and create the next steps, I guess. But you're leaving in the va. What that meant for me was, okay, if we want you to be in this specific, like PTSD clinic or CPT or pct, I don't remember. There's an acronym. It was like a PTSD related clinic. Then you have to go to like an orientation for that thing. And then that orientation is not until November. I did my, I did my stay in August and it's September.

Courtney Brain (55:53)

So you, you go in here and like, there's literally no addressing the concerns.

Ali (56:00)

Now. There wasn't.

Courtney Brain (56:01)

For me, I, I think my anger is starting to like, reemerge, not necessarily toward the people who have suicide ideation because of, like, it's actually because of. I, after hearing that, I can piece together the way that the systems that are in place actually perpetuate this don't actually fix the problems for people. I'm sure some people find a way. But what I hear is like, the things that don't work are what are being pushed on people. Right.

Ali (56:40)

And I think that there's like, if somebody is at home and they have a gun in their home and they are like, I have to get out of my home or I will do this. And they go to a place where they know that somebody will not get. Let them have access to that thing and then they're going to ask those questions. If you have a weapon at home, you say yes. Then they're going to make a plan to remove your weapon from your home because you know that you're a danger to yourself. Right? I can see a scenario in which that would be helpful. So I, you know, and I know people that have used crisis services in that way. So I'm not going to, I don't want to paint a blanket picture and like discourage people from getting support because I know several People that have needed immediate support or they were experiencing something and they were on a substance and they knew that they had to, like, withdraw from that substance in order to make the next. In order to, like, take the next step to get help. So, like, somebody's going in to come down off of something before they can figure it out. Right. So there are uses for, I think, like, a crisis center, but if you're a. It's not. Again, it's like a cookie cutter model for something that is complex.

Courtney Brain (57:57)

Yeah.

Ali (57:58)

So it. It will work in some scenarios, and maybe that is exactly what that person needs. It will not work in other scenarios. And that is the opposite of what a person needs.

Courtney Brain (58:11)

Well, now that you've named what it is that you know you need, like, it sounds like career coaching is suicide prevention. Like, you named a bunch of things as suicide prevention, like accessible food. Right. Groceries, things like that. Like, and there are these systems that are in place and people. I. It's very telling. Like, the times that we're in. I don't want to give this any energy, but a person was recently killed in the media, and there's debate about, you know, what this person stood for and, like, a complete, like, disregard for what else this person stood for. And it kind of speaks to the mindset of people who are like, oh, you don't make a lot of money, Get a different job, get a better job. Jobs are out there. And it's like, dude, that is so much more complicated than me just walking into a place and being like, hey, hire me, or the process of just applying for a job. Because we also live in a world that even the jobs that are available, they don't pay enough. And the cost of living keeps rising, so we can't keep up. Things are going up faster than we're making more money to be able to live and take care of ourselves. And this, as you said, like, being a barrier to suicide prevention. Like, this is something that makes people consider suicide because they can't even meet their basic needs.

Ali (59:48)

Yeah. And I think we've also, like, put a lot of emphasis on individuals to figure it out. And as opposed to, like, looking at the significance of community care and realizing, like, my friends have kept me alive by bringing me food over the past month. Like, not just in a suicidal, like, they bring me hope, but they have literally kept food, kept, like, fed me in a time where I'm saying it's easier to die if you wither away. If you don't get out of your bed and you just, like, disappear that's how it. That's not how it works. But in my brain, it's like, it's so simple. You just never leave your bed and then you just disappear. Like a magic scene in a movie. It doesn't work that way, but, like, my head is convinced sometimes that it does. So then I'm going to stay in my bed on my day off or my half day when I get home from one of my jobs. And then I'm not getting out of bed and I'm not going to eat. I'm not going to call anyone, I'm not going to look at anyone. And so for a friend to text me and be like, hey, I have soup. I am bringing it by. Tell me when you're home. Like, it's. Those things are really helpful. And I saw somewhere on an Instagram page and I wish I could remember it because I would love to credit this person. I don't know if there's a way to, like, do that after this because I don't really know how this works logistically.

Courtney Brain (61:23)

Yeah. If you send it to me, anything that you want that you reference that you can remember, like, tick, tick, tick, tick, Boom. What's his name? Tick, Tick, knock.

Ali (61:32)

Oh, Tick. Nh.

Courtney Brain (61:34)

Thank you. Oh, my God. That's definitely. I am so disrespectful. Yeah, just type that up to me, text it to me. I'll. I'll add it in the show notes when I upload the episode.

Ali (61:44)

Okay, cool. Because there's somebody that has this idea of like a care menu that's like.

Courtney Brain (61:50)

Yeah.

Ali (61:50)

For both. For you and for somebody that wants to support you, where you both have to be in this place of like, this is. I'm going to sit down and try to figure out, these are the things that I need. Can you help me with that? Or for somebody that wants to provide care, you say, these are the things that I can offer. Do you need that? And on both sides, you have to be ready for the answer to that to be no. So, like, you have to prepare yourself to say, these are things that I need. Can you help me with this? And somebody looks at that and they say, no, I cannot help you with any of those things, but I love you. Maybe we can try again another time. Or for me, who wants to offer care to somebody else to say, this is what I have to give right now. Like the these, I can cook you a meal a week. I can give you 20 bucks for grocery. You know, whatever these are, this is what I can do. Do you need any of these things. And some. Maybe the answer for me is no, I don't need any of those things right now. Thank you. You know, oh, we'll figure it out down the road. Like, you know, we can try again another time. And maybe it aligns and maybe it doesn't. But I liked the, the concept of that and I'm realizing as a person that could have used that now that would be easier to create when you're not in it. It's easier to create those things once you're through the worst of it.

Courtney Brain (63:20)

Yeah. Please let me know what that resource is and I'll to the show notes. We're set time. And I want to ask you about the homework assignment I gave you. So I'm looking at it.

Ali (63:34)

It's not fully done.

Courtney Brain (63:36)

Oh, well, okay.

Ali (63:37)

But it's, it's like I know where, where I want to go with it.

Courtney Brain (63:40)

Okay, then we won't go there. Here.

Ali (63:45)

When you can go to part of it if you want to talk about the parts you saw.

Courtney Brain (63:49)

Because I'd like to see it complete. I'd like to see it complete. So.

Ali (63:52)

Okay.

Courtney Brain (63:54)

I want to first thank you for going here. I thank you for being here. I thank you for just sharing your experience and being able to offer, you know, the people who might. I mean, people might be struggling with wanting to kill themselves every day now. Right. And. Or maybe supporting someone because the way that I would have thought to or known to support someone who's struggling with suicide ideation, textbook wise, it never really landed with me and it didn't feel right. Right. So to hear you, you know, speak about your personal experiences and hear you say like it's all these other factors. I always thought that it was about being sad. You're sad, you don't want to be here anymore. But it is so much more than that. Someone in the professional world told me it was about a loss of control. And what I consistently see is that it's about identity invalidation. When someone's identity is invalidated repeatedly, it's like I would rather be identified with nothing than what it is that I have to be identified with. And that nothing becomes more and more appealing the more that the things that you wish to be seen for aren't seen or the things that, you know, make you feel seen, aren't seen, observed, witnessed, acknowledged. And that's kind of what my takeaway is out of this. Do you have anything you want to add or leave the listeners with?

Ali (65:34)

Yeah, I think a lot of times when somebody is going through something hard and the people around them don't know what to do. They say, let me know if you need anything. And that puts the weight of that, of coming up with that thing on a person who is already, I guess like incapacitated in a way, like overwhelmed already, struggling already in crisis. And that person oftentimes is not going to say anything. And it's not because they don't want support. It's because they don't have the capacity to come up with the thing that you can help them with. So having those things that are like, hey, I have extra food, do you want any? And then being okay with the answer being no, hey, do you want to go for a walk? Or like, let's go for a walk, you know, Having specific things to reach out to somebody with is incredibly helpful. Those things have been helpful for me because I'm really overwhelmed. I'm in analysis paralysis and making a choice is hard. So help with those choices and examples and it's okay if the answer is no and we don't need those things. But I find it really helpful for people to have specific things when they reach out.

Courtney Brain (67:06)

That was a softer. Yeah than what I meant. Like I wasn't anything. It just didn't come out well. Ali, I thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for being willing to go here. I will wrap this up and then we can just check in real quick about how you feel with this and we'll go from there. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like rate, review, share, subscribe to the podcast. As I mentioned before, you know, this is why, this is why I do what I do. I do what I do because I don't always get to go into this much depth and detail with the person who's experiencing suicide ideation. I know that we consistently see a third of people who take our surveys have suicide ideation related to their herpes diagnosis. It's probably more. It probably, I don't know, it could be less, it could be more. But either way, my role is to be here and just support people continuing to produce this support resource that is something Positive for positive people podcast offering one on one support calls, offering yoga therapy as a way of helping to navigate stigma and the support groups. So I'm doing everything I know to do everything that I can and maintaining consistency. Right now we're working on the website. You'll see that it has a new look to it. This, this is, this is Spencer. It's very expensive so all donations are welcome and help with the creation of an easy to access and navigatable website so that people can continue to get the support that they need. But it feels good to be able to reconnect with the roots and the core of what something positive for positive people is. And just be a reminder, especially as we are approaching this new milestone of 400 podcast episodes, y'. All, that's damn near eight years. There's eight years of me talking about herpes with people under the umbrella of stigma. All right, so until next time, you all stay present.