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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello, welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brain. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non profit organization supporting people who are navigating herpes stigma. I want to make a couple of announcements real quick and I will try and keep this as brief as possible as we approach our 400th podcast episode. I believe this one's 388. So we're about 12 weeks out from, from that event which we will be celebrating episode 400. It's a talent show slash karaoke. If you follow me on Instagram. You know, I've been on a karaoke kick lately. I've been practicing dancing. So yeah, I might get up there and show a little, show a little something off, you know. And this is going to be December 12th in Brooklyn, New York. The address will be given upon registration. The zip code is I believe 112066 is close to there. It's close to there. If you're familiar with New York, if you Google the House NYC or the House Brooklyn then you'll know where it is. But that's the venue. It's on Friday, December 12th from 5pm to 9pm and this is something that I would like to be able to do more often. I just created a landing page for people who stumble across something positive when they look for herpes related things in New York City to be able to find community. Because I like doing this kind of shit things, I like doing those kinds of things and I want to do it more regularly with people that I think are supportive to the cause of minimizing herpes stigma, who, you know, really just want to like take this and learn from it and be able to heal and move forward. On Mondays at 7:30pm Eastern Time we have our virtual herpes support groups. There's one for women, there's one for men and they alternate. So the first and third Monday, women, second and fourth men. I had someone send me a text actually and I was very surprised that this came from this person about the way that I promoted the groups on Tik Tok specifically and I thought that I just was exaggerating that the groups were separated. Men group, women's group. I don't have the experience nor do I have the resources to be able to facilitate a non binary or trans only group. I didn't think I needed to say this, but if you're a trans man, you would come to the men's group. If you're a trans woman, you would come to the women's group. But for identities that fall outside of men and women, there is not something that isn't, like, created that only tailors to those identities. So, yeah, I don't know if that was misinterpreted at all, but I like to think that over the last eight years, I've shown some type of allyship and understanding. But, yeah, I don't know, maybe it was just a my exaggeration on men and women that was misinterpreted. But the support groups are there, and there are also alternatives for people who are looking for more queer and LGBT experiences. I have that linked on the website as well, and I think that's it as far as announcements go. If I think of anything else at the end of the podcast episode, I will. If I don't, forget it, mention it. If you haven't already taken the survey, just go to the survey tab on the site. There's a banner up right now that is easy to find. It pops up in your face when you go to the website to take our survey. All right, now I have a guest. I put that podcast episode out, and I was like, yo, I need help. Like, I, I'm running out of stuff to talk about, running out of things to say. I can start sharing my experiences, but I'll be honest, I'm. I've been a little bit hesitant to be as open about my personal experiences because I've been out of a relationship now for seven months. I think the breakup was in February. It's been seven months. It's been like, I've moved on and there is a healing process, but, like, there's still a remnants of me that is a little bit hesitant and resistant to share my dating experiences and, like, what's happening for me. If you've listened to other podcast episodes, you know why. But, yeah, I, I, some I've been called out for hiding in a way. So this ain't me, you know, necessarily doing that, but I'm just figuring out ways to respectful for the, like, respecting the integrity of the relationships that I have, as well as being mindful of, like, not putting myself in a position for somebody to think that they know me and then kind of get into my life in such a way. Like, I, I got to be careful with that. And so I'm working on how to navigate that. And really, in therapy, he's like my therapist who I can't stand. Shout out to Derek, but he's right. Like, he's great at his job. I can't stand my therapist, but he's great at his job, he's been telling me, hey, you, you really just need to. You, you do what's for you. You can't be not doing what's best for you because of your concerns about other people. And I'm like, ah, that's so much easier said than done. But we got a podcast guest here that is probably going to reflect back to me the importance of that. So I'm going to let you introduce yourself how you want to be introduced. And then of course, first question is we connect and we'll just go into the conversation from there. But I'm rusty, so give me, give me grade.
- [05:23]
B
Perfect.
- [05:24]
A
Yeah.
- [05:25]
B
I'm Rachel and I. It's funny you mentioned your therapist because that's how I found out about something positive for positive people. I am obsessed with my therapist. She is a gem of a human, even though she also does frustrate me. But I love her. And she texted me, which I feel like when you get to a texting relationship with your therapist, you're like, this is real. So she texted me and she's like, not sure if you've heard of this. Like, I feel like for homework, maybe check it out. And I'm like, great. And I went to the website and it was immediately just like it was the first time experiencing something like similar to this. And I just feel like it was to sound slightly cheesy, like the most like positive initial experience I had kind of since getting the diagnosis and feeling like there's just so few resources or so few people I can connect with. And so I pretty quickly, quickly like signed up to do a support call and so you and I connected through that channel. And weirdly, I think I mentioned before, I was like, right when I went to the website, I was so drawn to like be a podcast guest because I like to do podcasts and I, I work in a different industry and I just like love to talk and hop on podcasts. And I think this is so important. And the podcast episodes I have listened to, it has genuinely been so valuable for me. Cause I think anyone to date that I've shared with in the past two plus years since I've had the diagnosis, they don't personally share the experience. And so I think the benefit of being able to hear people's stories and talk to people, like after the support call, I said to my therapist, I was like, it was like catching up with someone and talking about a new restaurant we had both been to. And like the normalcy of how that felt was so important for I think where I was at and where I want to continue to get to and be. Because again, I think it's like the deep down of, like, it's not a big deal, but the stigma is pretty bad. And I think just continuing to do the work and do the things to be in a better place kind of internally and. And kind of, you know, who I choose to share it with and. And all that good stuff. So.
- [07:32]
A
Can I record that for a commercial? No, I'm just kidding.
- [07:35]
B
Sure.
- [07:39]
A
I. I just appreciate the process through shout out to your therapist. I'm glad that these resources are making it to the people that are the initial contact points of being able to get people going into the direction of talking about this. So in your case, you obviously shared with your therapist that you have herpes. And I hear from a lot of people that they don't want to do that. Typically they don't want to ruin the relationship or to be judged by their therapist. And it's like, what else are you telling your therapist?
- [08:11]
B
Yeah.
- [08:11]
A
Yeah. In your case, what in inspired you to share this with your therapist? Just for anybody listening who might not want to do that.
- [08:19]
B
Yes, that is. That's actually so interesting because I. There wasn't even a thought in my mind. It was the first person, potentially. It's like, hard to look back. I received the diagnosis and I received like, a pamphlet that was like, your life's not over for the turn. I was like, opposite effect this is having currently in my life. And I kind of like, panicked. I'm in shock. I'm dealing with the emotions of it. And I text my therapist, I'm like, hey, we're going to need to bump it up to weekly appointments. And I didn't tell her in the message, but I was like, I knew mentally I need, like, as frequently as I can see this woman. And the hard part was at the time of the diagnosis, and as this is all happening, I was newly laid off. I was like, going through a lot of other things in my life where I think there was already the stress of, like, affording, I mean, life, but. But also therapy. And so I think that's the other reason where I'm grateful I have a really solid therapist, a good relationship with her where she's like, I don't want that to be a barrier. Whatever, you can pay, you can pay. We'll make it work kind of thing. So I'm lucky in that regard. But she was one of the first people that I at least tapped of. Like me, kind of just starting to build My network, because I didn't tell. It took me a long time to tell anyone. Like, I just kind of sat with it and basically was just talking to her about it, you know, dealing with the emotions. And then it from there still have kept it fairly close, but, you know, told two of my best friends, told my mom and sister, told a person I ended up then dating. So, you know, it's. There's like six people in my life that know. Which feels wild. But I'm grateful that, like, she's one of them and she's certainly helped me progress and I guess just like my experience with the internal stigma and just like working on different ways to feel better about the situation.
- [10:05]
A
Yeah, you. You just mentioned something that I. I struggled with with therapy, cost barrier. So for me, on one hand it was like, okay, I need to like, save my money. But also if I'm not in a good place to be able to do the things I need to do to make money, then whereas it's a paradox, right? I need therapy. So I can afford therapy, but I can't afford therapy. And because of that, I need therapy as well. And what I've found is that I, who works for me and works with me because a lot of things ebb and flow. Like, we are in a time where the government is currently shut down here in the United States and a lot of people are having to go to work and they're not being paid. There's things to do, you know, around that, but I. Everybody don't have access to that. And so I guess, like, what for you made the paying for therapy more of a priority than perhaps other things that you might have used your money for to cope or just like, get by.
- [11:10]
B
Yeah, I think it's a funny. It hasn't always been that way. I think, like, I was introduced to therapy at a really young age and I, like, hated it. And I was always like, really anti therapy and then took kind of like a hiatus for a while and just like went through some therapists I didn't love and so found this woman. And just immediately, like, we. We just clicked right away, which I do think is helpful and can be hard to find. But it was one where it's hard to identify exactly what it was. I think it was just something where like, in. In the exact moment that I, like, got the results back from the test and saw like the diagnosis of herpes, I, like, quite literally within like an hour, texted my therapist. Like, it just was so immediate and it was like, weirdly, the financial component Was kind of out of my head because I think it was a dire feeling of like, it did feel like my life was over. I think like in that moment I was like, this is like the worst case scenario. This is, you know, the dramatic thing I have played up in my head for whatever reason. And I think in, in that moment, yeah, I knew I was like, I am, you know, don't have a job, have a new health diagnosis. Like a lot of things were happening in my world that I was like, well, I need to be okay and I need to take care of me to then be able to do all these other things. And so, so that was, I mean, completely just worth it in that moment. And I think I'm also grateful in that like I rent, I don't have a car payment, I don't, you know, I don't have these other major expenses. So I was able to make it work. And you know, who knows where I saved money on less coffees and food or different things, but so made it work that way.
- [12:43]
A
Yeah, thank you for sharing that for me. I think that what it came down to was I just had to inconvenience myself a little bit in other areas where I did end up going to the grocery store more consistently and I started to cook more. But these were also things that I enjoyed and like doing right. Like maybe I don't go out to a restaurant or maybe like I, oh, I don't have time, I need to. Da da da. All it did was make me plan differently. Like I had to make plans for how I was going to eat and then grocery shop and then like being mindful of laundry and the cost of those things. Because it, there's a lot of stuff that if we're not paying attention to it, like those subscriptions, they add up and you might notice why am I paying 200 for a phone bill when everything that I need can cost me as low as $40 something dollars a month. Right. So yeah, I, I, I feel that. And that was kind of my thing too. And it was a cycle of doing what I needed to do for myself led to me being able to do more for myself. It's like the more you do a thing, the better you get at it. And I think that going into therapy made me better for wanting to be in therapy and then therapy made me better at doing the things that outside of there. I have one more question related to therapy and then I want to know what brought you here. And that is something that I've struggled with in the past has Been becoming too dependent on my therapist. Right. You got your diagnosis. You're like, let me text my therapist. Or at what point, like, if we're in a situation where you know, something's happening real time, oh my God, I need to tell my therapist. And then we wait a week to like deal with the thing or bring it up and nothing's happening with it. We're just in kind of a timeout until we talk to therapy and then come back to it. Where's the line between that and the progression of your experience in therapy to where when you're touched with a situation that you would normally like, need to talk to your therapist about, you're able to address there? Do you have any words about that?
- [14:58]
B
I do. I think it's one where I think even beyond like being more like frequently going to therapy or just, you know, really finding the right person, I'm always someone who I'm just like, for fascinated by like mental health and psychology and all. Like, I've always like exclusively kind of like read non fiction on that topic. So I think I'm someone who like, I almost didn't maybe even give myself credit. Like, I know the tools, like, I know the things that are like valuable and helpful when like something you know, comes up that's outside of my control, which is life. And I feel like it's. I love having like the progression and the relationship and the like camaraderie almost with like this therapist that I've now been going to for almost like five years at this point. But I also like she even has had in her own personal life, like things lately where we've had to like push out appointments and there was like a big gap recently and it's like I was okay and I was able to kind of make those things work. And I still want to stay consistent with it. But I think it's kind of like, I think there's a timeline, at least for me, and I like to imagine other people experience it of like, you're going to therapy and you're checking that box and you're doing that thing and you're investing in it, but it's like then also taking that and like doing the things that you're learning and that you're talking about. And I think there's unfortunately a little bit of lag time there. But I think now I'm at a point where it's like, I've been in it for so long and I so like even a lot more recently I was like, I am so tired of like feeling the way that I feel about this diagnosis that I cannot change and cannot cure. So I just, just want to figure out what I need to do to feel better. And I know that's not just me going to therapy. Like that includes other things.
- [16:38]
A
Yeah, thank you. And that, that works because I was. We made this joke with a friend of mine. Like, we both stopped going to therapy before we got into a relationship. And we talked. We were like, man, if we were in therapy throughout that relationship, we wouldn't have been in that relationship. And that, that the conversations that my therapist and I have been having, like to process the ending of that relationship because I've been seeing them sometimes twice a week, other time. Well, now we're in. Now at this point, it's every other week just because, like, there's not much to talk about for me week to week. And what we're working on just doesn't require every week sessions anymore, which I'm grateful for. Right. Like start, you know, putting my money towards other things. Like I was able to get a massage last night and that felt good. Like I needed that deep tissue. Yeah, yeah, that was good for me. So let's talk about, you know, your diagnosis. 23rd, 2023 of August, right after the Dirty 30. That takes a whole new meaning to the Dirty 30, don't it?
- [17:44]
B
Sure does. It sure does. And I'm grateful that it was after my 30th because I feel like I was like, I like celebrated my 30th and then it was like quick, like quick after. But all that to say it was in my experience, there was like a build up to it. So I, you know, obviously looking back, didn't know in the moment that this happened, but I got BV first and I never had that before. And so like went to the doctor. I think I got like an antibiotic to clear that up, but I had a really negative reaction to that antibiotic. I started having like vertigo and like just feeling like absolute. And so to offset that, I was on like. So I was basically for three months just like, so, so sick. So it was like BV strep throat reactions to this medication that I was taking. I'm like weirdly sensitive to any and all medication always, so it was not great. And then even after all that, I was noticing like some discomfort and like a sore that I had never experienced before. And of course I'm researching to be like, what else could it be? Because I think like my, my mind went there, but I was like, no, no, like this can't be what that is. And so I like, message my doctor and she's like, I would like for you to come in so I can check this out. It sound like, immediately she's like, it sounds like herpes. And I was like, and so go in, do the test. I think at the time I. And I was surprised I did this, but I think I even reached out to my mom and I was like, going. She knew how sick I had been. And I was like, I'm going through all this. There's a chance it could be this. I'm freaking out. Can you come into the city? And when I get the results, like, we can, like, open them together. Because I'm so nervous about it. And then I, like, couldn't end up waiting. So, like, I ended up, like, opening it and seeing the results. And she, like, got in and I, like, shared it with her. But I mean, it was like this drawn out process in so many ways. Just of all the different things, like, my body was going through and I was going through and I was feeling awful. And then it like all kind of like, looking back, it was all related. And it was after, like a night, a long day of day drinking, turned into a girl's night, turned into another. Like, it was like an unfortunately messy, like, not. This was not from someone that I was in a relationship with. This is someone I met that day. This is someone that, you know, looking back, took advantage of. I was lit, like, just absolutely. So, like, there's definitely, like, also trauma included in, you know, the diagnosis itself. Like, there. That was hard for me to kind of get past. But I think it's also looking back now. It's something that, you know, in. In all things, I'm like, okay, let's see. I try to see. I try to stay positive. I try to see a silver lining in things. And I think it's taken some time, but it's also something that through this diagnosis, I have been grateful in the fact that I have had two outbreaks in over two years. So it's not something physically that I deal with on a frequent basis. It's type one, which I've heard may or may not mean less frequency of outbreaks, different things. But it's certainly, I guess it's. It's forced me to be like, all right, I. I'm always someone who. I teach fitness classes. I take care of myself. I'm into health and wellness. But I was like, I wasn't really taking care of myself. And I think that was like, came to fruition. And I think now I'm truly able to say, like, I take so much better care of myself. And that's certainly been a reflection of this diagnosis. Kind of like bringing that to light and for. And you know, wanting. Making me want to do it even more.
- [21:07]
A
Yeah. As I'm, I'm reading through what you wrote and I'm like, oh, okay, that, that. And you're, you're covering everything. I'm so two years. How has dating been for you? What is dating look like?
- [21:21]
B
Yeah, you made a face like it's, it's dating. I got the diagnosis in August of 2023. I spent a month living in Portugal in October of 2023, which was like a pre planned thing I was doing. While on that trip, I both met someone that I was like, we like really hit it off, like spent a week together, whatever, shared it with him. He did not react well, which was like my first potential partner sharing this with. And it was not ideal. And then weirdly, also on that trip, someone that I had been seeing previous, previously, like longtime friend, but like him and I had hooked up during the pandemic, there had been kind of like this on and off again, like, will they, won't they? But reached out to me on my trip and was like, basically like, I want to do this for real, whatever. And I'm sitting there like, all excited. Something I'd been wanting to hear for a long time. But then I'm like, oh, but now I have this new diagnosis that's like new information. And so I get back from my trip, we reconnect, we like go on a couple dates, and I'm like, you know, like, normally we would hook up right away and I'm kind of like hesitant because I hadn't, I had shared it, I guess, with the one person in Portugal and they react poorly and I share it with them. And they were just like, you know, I don't know a lot about this, but like, I'm not going anywhere and all this stuff. And we're like, which in my mind I was like, okay, best case scenario, like they're not reacting poorly. We like end up dating. We dated for almost a year. And what I will say is I think the timing of it all was helpful in that moment because I don't know if I would have truly been ready to like, deal with all the emotions and all the things. Like I think dating someone so quickly after the diagnosis and someone who also didn't share the diagnosis but accepted it and didn't reject it was so beneficial because during that relationship, like, I did not feel. I didn't think about it. It was like the only time period kind of since that I was like, I didn't. I didn't think every day, like, I have this diagnosis that's like, you know, changes things. And we broke up last October, and that's when it hit me. Like, I was like, oh, like. Like I was like, now I have to, like, meet new people and put myself out there and like, do all this stuff. And I think right from that, I went on some dates with people and I found myself, like, kind of cutting myself off before it, like, progressed into anything physical.
- [23:39]
A
Can we talk about that? That self rejection happened?
- [23:43]
B
Yes.
- [23:43]
A
How we manage that? Because I recognize this for myself too. And I used to think that it was because, oh, I'm too big of a personality or I'm too intense. And it's amazing what we tell ourselves just coming from what other people have told us versus what we know to be true about ourselves. Yeah. And that's oftentimes where the rejection comes from. It's a lingering rejection that is outside of ourselves. I guess I'm feeling a little brave so I can, like, share something that I've noticed for myself recently. I have a roommate who's very social and is always, like, trying. He's hyping me up and always trying to put me on, introducing me to people. And he'll. He'll just. Have you met Courtney? Like, if you ever say, how I met. How you met your mother, like, have you met Ted?
- [24:38]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [24:39]
A
Very bad. And I'm. I catch myself, like, having been so focused on this isn't the setting, like, that person probably not here. And I think back to social media. Like, a lot of times on social media, if I'm just watching stories or scrolling through and I'm seeing what people post. A lot of what I've been seeing lately is like, women bashing men for coming up and talking to them or like, I don't bothered. I'm just here to dance. I'm just here to socialize. I'm not here to meet people. And I think that I've internalized that so much that I'm just like, oh, she doesn't want to be bothered. And I just shy away from it. And I know that that isn't always true, but also the only way to really know is to ask. And that didn't really occur to me until very, like, recently. It's like, oh, I'm approaching this interaction with the outcome in mind that we're going to not even like, not even exchange names. Not even how's your night? Not even who do you know? Right. The small talk, casual stuff. I'm bypassing all of that and getting to the point of, you know, after the interaction where she goes home, goes to social media or the group chat and says, this guy tried to talk to me ill. Oh. So I just prevent that from happening after playing that entire scenario in my head briefly. Yep.
- [26:06]
B
100.
- [26:09]
A
That's my self rejection, which has nothing to do with herpes. It's that. But that's.
- [26:13]
B
And that's kind of the interesting part, I think that is like that I think is something I realized so much more recently of kind of like. But then it's like a nice. I don't know. I try to see. I think it's been a buffer that I maybe needed before of just like, it's not as if like. Because I was more of like a relationship person previously. And I think like, I also kind of went through like a year or so where it was a lot more just like a lot of different sexual experiences and like really having fun and like putting myself out there and trying different things. And I feel like now I just feel like I'm like, what do I do now? Like, it just. It just feels different. But I know so much of that is like, it's not as if people aren't, you know, asking me out or, you know, like pursuing me. And I. I finally just because I was like, I should try it. I joined like one the of of the dating apps that's like specific to.
- [27:04]
A
Which I love how you say one of like there's any more than just the one that exists.
- [27:09]
B
I. Well, fair. I was like, I don't know. I think.
- [27:11]
A
I know we don't have that. We will not say their name. You know, I'm bad. I'm banned off of there. Oh yeah. I've email tried to get reinstated. I've been like, hey, what do I need to do?
- [27:21]
B
I don't know if you're missing anything. I have been on that thing for two weeks and I'm like, this is. There's no one like, like there's like four people in my city. Like, so I'm just kind of like.
- [27:32]
A
So people have been proposing that a lot of these profiles aren't even real people.
- [27:38]
B
That's what I also kind of worry about.
- [27:40]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Like, you'll see these people like, oh, where are they at? You'll be excited about maybe matching or whatever. And I wouldn't be surprised if they just like paid some people to chat and yes, exchange photos just to keep it going. But yeah, I, I'm, I'm not good for their business because I'm literally trying to get people to not need. That makes sense for me to be there 100. And then there's just like, also, I don't need y'. All. This is.
- [28:11]
B
I'm very quickly also like, I. It's more that I'm kind of like, I gotta put myself back out there. I've been so weird about dating ever since like my last relationship ended. And in my head I'm kind of like, okay, it could be nice to go out with people who share this experience. So that's like not even on the table. So it's not something I have to get in my head of like, oh no. If this progresses, then this conversation has to happen. And like, in a weird way, I think my like very short term experience on this app that they need a UX designer. Like, this is the worst app I've experienced.
- [28:44]
A
I feel like, have you tried Field F E L D?
- [28:49]
B
That is literally one that I've thought about because I also think like my personality and kind of like the things I'm into, I also feel like I would just fit within that world in general. And I also imagine like, there's more openness in that space where it would be a little less.
- [29:04]
A
I can, I can speak to that a little bit. Like, I've had a lot of positive experiences on field, which has just been like more of a sex positive sex forward, pleasure and safety dynamics being discussed up front. You still might catch some of the people who might use the word clean or who are like these three flu. But I think overall, for the most part, these are people who are much more comfortable with talking about sex in general. So therefore sexual health being a part of that, it's a lot easier. Before we get too far away from it though, the self rejection piece, how do you, how do you manage that? How do you navigate that? The self rejection? What do you do, if anything at all?
- [29:50]
B
I think very much like it's a work in progress, of course, but I think it's something where in my very recent experience, like putting myself on this app, I went on my first date from the app last night. I've like been out.
- [30:04]
A
Tell us about that. Tell us about how the day went.
- [30:07]
B
Like, I'm, I'm someone. Like, it's hard because I never liked dating apps before all of this. So it's Kind of what I Of those things where I was like, he was cute. He was nice. Like, I feel like I'm fun. So I feel like I have fun.
- [30:19]
A
Okay, hear me out. Yeah. I have never heard a woman who was like, he was cute. He was nice. Be like, yeah, I want to that dude. Or, yeah, we're.
- [30:27]
B
I don't want to fuck this dude. Like, don't. Like, I don't. And I feel like, so that's hard. Yeah. So I feel like it's kind of. Yeah. I don't know. It's like my. Yeah, my friend's like, how was the date? And I was like, it was fine. It was fine. Like, it was fine. So that's hard.
- [30:45]
A
What is it? Is it. Is it that he's not hot, or is it that he doesn't have much going on? Talk to me about this, because I think this can be useful information real time. You're coming off this date from last night. Where did y' all go? What did y' all do?
- [30:59]
B
So. And here's what I will say, too. So I work in the hospitality industry, so I have very good taste in food and beverage, and I have a.
- [31:06]
A
Very specific kind of. Of personality. So I think that this says a lot, too.
- [31:10]
B
Yes. Yes. So I. I feel like while I'm, again, very much also myself trying to be open, I feel like I'm quick to judge if someone's like. Like, if someone asks me out and they want to take me to this lame spot, then I'm like, well, I don't want to do that. Right? And so I was excited because this person was like, hey, let me take you out. And named off, like, a really great cocktail bar that also happened to be in the neighborhood I live in, when she didn't even know, like, where I lived. So I was like, conveniently, this works out. I can walk over to this cocktail spot. I know it's solid. I'd been there before. I like it. Good vibes, like, live music. Like, it's just a good spot. And I was like, okay. Has good taste. Like, I respect that. And I think just like. And I don't know. I like. It's not that I'm someone. I think things can build in terms of, like, attraction or chemistry or vibes or whatever. Is it relatively short? Like, I was like, let's keep it to a drink. Let's just. Just meet each other. But I just. I don't know. I. I don't know if I was super attracted to him. He's not an Unattractive person. I just didn't immediately feel that. And then I think it also felt like, I don't know. I. I like nerdy. I like people that are into their own things. But I feel like he gave me a little, like, maybe too lame. Like, I don't know, like.
- [32:21]
A
All right. The point that I wanted to draw out of that experience, like you sharing, is that none of that had anything to do with herpes. You didn't reject yourself and prevent yourself from getting into that experience. Oh my God. Did you meet him off of that dating app for people with herpes? Yeah. Oh, well, that just negated the point. But I guess, like, I can still maybe pull something out of that, which is that you were able to be on that date and be present and be yourself and be with him. And I don't know how much of it comes down to the. When we date people with herpes. Right. It's like no one has it on one hand, right?
- [33:03]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:04]
A
And on the other hand of it too, I think that we have an idea of the kind of person who has herpes between who's avoiding it and then someone who is dealing, you know, actively working through it or has worked through it. And even me, like, I'm somebody who's working through it. Like, I always have. Like, my stigma is just different than what most people have in mind, is like, I have to tell people very quickly because they ask, what do you do? Or. Right. And so there's a little bit of stigma that I deal with around that. But I don't have a problem telling somebody before we have sex or somebody that I'm interested in hooking up with. But yeah, I think there's a certain thing that maybe you've picked up on that because that person is on the dating app for people at Herpes, and that maybe there's not that same consistent authenticity, so to speak. I think that, yeah, because if you're around people and I use the example of, like, a friend of mine, after I got diagnosed, I was hanging out at his house with his family, and I was in my phone. Haha. He. In the chat of that particular app that we were talking about, I don't.
- [34:16]
B
Even have it on my phone. Mine's on my desktop.
- [34:18]
A
No, don't let it be. Don't let it be on your phone. And I remember he looked at me, he goes, like, you all right, man? You don't seem like yourself. And that's when I realized, like, the inconsistency of I'm more myself with these people than I am with the people that know me, who are around me. And that was when I, I had a decision to make of not letting myself just separate myself in these two Personas and stop masking around, you know, the people around me and keeping them from knowing what my herpes status is or that I was dealing with that at all. And it's just been such a freeing experience because now that same confidence that I have around people who know that I have herpes is the same kind of confidence that I have around people who, you know, might find out whether or not.
- [35:08]
B
Yeah, I think that has honestly probably been the most challenging thing for me because I think as a person person, I am someone who, like, I'm very outspoken about mental health. I'm very outspoken about other experiences I've been through that are also stigmatized or also have certain, you know, degrees of whatnot. And I feel like this, I can't even, I mean, I understand why I feel the way I feel about it, but I also do think, like, the isolation around, like, I mean, so many of my, like, closest people, I haven't told, like, the people, the audience, weirdly, in my life that knows is not even the people I'm necessarily, like, the closest with in this, like, given moment. And I think that can be. It's like, weird yesterday, like, oh, where'd you meet this guy? And I just, like, use a place. I'm like, hinge. Like, like, it's like, oh, show me a photo. I'm like, can't. Don't have that app. Like, so it's like, just. And I don't, I don't want to lie. Like, I don't. But then it's like, I feel like when it's out there, it's out there, and I, I think sometimes I worry about just, like, other people again, like, other people, like, my own stigma was my own stigma. That's something I'm continuing to work through. And I think other people, like, I still pick up on the comments of just, like, the shit people say. And I, I don't know, I, I, I wonder if that will likely be, like, a next step of just continuing. Like, I feel like this month I was like, okay, my goals for the month. And it's like, across the board. It's not just related to, like, goals of dating or whatnot, but I'm like, go on a date, like, check and, like, share with, like, one other person. Person. Because I just feel like I need to keep, like, not keeping this, like, so close and Getting more and more comfortable talking about it because the isolation around that, I think is worse than the experience I've had dealing with it.
- [36:47]
A
So, yeah, tell me about the support that you've received and sharing with your friends. Like, what does that look like to have talking to a friend about it go? Well.
- [36:59]
B
I think it's been. Because again, it's kind of funny. It's like my younger sister and my mom are two people that know and like, they're wonderful. But I also think they just, like. I think I just get the sense that they. Because they know it's been hard for me. So I think, like, they seem to be, like, sad for me almost, which, like, isn't helpful. And it's not them like, acting a specific way, but I think they're just like, they don't totally understand it. They, like, have a lot of questions. Questions. They're like, oh, I'm so sorry this happened. And then I feel like my first friends that I shared, it was also a little bit like they were pissed at this guy. They're like, this guy, do we need. Do we need to go find him? And I'm just like, it's not like I'm like this. It's like I'm like, no. So there's that. But I think even that, like, one of them. I'm grateful. I mean, majority. But I feel like I. One of my friends that I shared with is someone who's just like such a sex positive person. She's done the sex parties, she's done that. Like, she is someone who immediately was like, I know people. Like, she's like, I know people. I know people who have been diagnosed and then they're still, you know, like, it's fine. So she was just like, in that space where I think it was like a nice person to share with and talk to about it. And then I feel like another one of my close friends. It very clearly was like her first time, like, hearing this experience from someone. So I think, like, obviously not ill intended or unintentionally. I think definitely, definitely said some things that, like, rubbed me the wrong way. But it was also me so freshly dealing with this news and this new thing. So I think, like, it's been a mixed bag. And that's what I think I worry about more of, like, everyone that I've told to date I trust has, like, not shared with other people. They've had, you know, fine reactions. And I think I'm like, okay, safe. Like, that's a good whatever. And so I think When I start to open that up, I worry about that piece of it. But it's also. Again, it's like the balance of. It might feel nice to just be like this. Why is this such a big deal? Why is this big secret that I've been holding on to that's been weighing on me when it could just be like, my friends are good people. Like, that's why they're my friends. Like, it's. It is what it is. Like.
- [38:59]
A
So, anyway, yeah, thank you. Because I think what. Like how earlier I mentioned a lot of people don't tell their therapist, a lot of people don't tell their friends. And a lot of times what we miss out on is being reminded who we are outside of our diagnosis. When we get the diagnosis, we immediately absorb and we start to take in and project how we think people think of us rather than how people actually do see or think of us, because we just wear. We lose it. Like, we really just get lost in it. And so to be able to share with friends, to be able to share with people close to us, I know how resistant. I know how much resistance there can be to such a thing. But it doesn't have to be that resistance. We don't have to have that resistance at all. And I think that it's so important that we do share with people who can remind us who we were prior to our diagnosis. Diagnosis, because that's who moves forward in the dating and the. That's who. If we're rejected, we're rejected for being incompatible with who we're trying to assess for compatibility. But if hers is at the forefront, we're looking exclusively based on that. And it's just a matter of, does this person. Is there? Are they okay with me having herpes, yes or no? Great. We can be in a relationship. We're going to get married, have kids, and then it's like, well, wait a minute. I have completely different values, political views, views on how to raise kids, if you even want kids. And we bypass all that. And by the time we finally look up after having gotten into the relationship with someone just who accepts us for having herpes, it's too late. And now we're trying to figure out how we can make it work. And then, bam, all this time passes of just trying to situate and organize what life can look like or changing things about yourself and what you do and what they do, trying to make a puzzle piece fit together. That just might not be the case.
- [41:09]
B
Yeah.
- [41:10]
A
And I think that that's really what can help with that self rejection is the reality of touching base with people around you in order to be reminded who you are outside of your herpes status.
- [41:23]
B
My job, no, like that. That's been a recurring exercise in therapy of just like, Rachel, let's like sit down and write about yourself and all the things that make you you. And she's like, oh, how interesting. Like, this is a full page of all these different things. And it's like, oh, yeah, like, deep down I know this, but I do. I think it's something where like my very, very brief experience that will likely not last very long on this app is like, this can't be my dating pool. I was like, I have so much to give. And I am like. And I am, if anything, honestly the best version of myself that I have been. Looking back at relationships, like, worked on myself, my relationship with alcohol, how I take care of myself, how I show up for myself and other people, like, it's the best it's ever been. And so it's like, okay, great. Like, that means the person I date, maybe they share this diagnosis with me, maybe they don't like. And I think that's the piece that I like. And I think it weirdly took me downloading the app and getting matches with like all these like, you know, six year old men in Maryland, like, hey, like, let me fly out. And I was like, this can't be my soulmate. Like, what's happening here? And I just said, like, what soul mate?
- [42:27]
A
That's your sugar daddy.
- [42:29]
B
Like, and sure, like, I'm open to. I, I own my own business, I work hard with love. But like, you know, so.
- [42:38]
A
Yeah, that, that's not the pool. And I, I think that being able to hear, you know, about the experience that you're having, because it doesn't sound like you're having a negative experience. It doesn't sound like you're having a positive experience. It sounds like you're having experiences and then you're making the most of them. Is that the case?
- [42:58]
B
I think that's. I kind of laugh because I feel like this and this, these types of things always seem to be this way. But I'm like, this was very well timed because if you caught me on Tuesday, I was, was having like a very low day that I think I was mostly blaming on this diagnosis. I don't know how I'm gonna feel. Like I feel better, da, da, da. And like, you know, three days later, whatever it is, I'm like. And I do think, like, it, it was nice to go on a date and show up and feel confident and get ready and, like, meet someone new and have them be interested in me. And I think there's also this, like. I think in those, like, periods, I do feel like there's kind of times where it almost feels like this, like. Like animal magnetism. And I feel like I've been feeling that of, like. I feel like people are kind of coming back from, like, past parts of my life and, like, reaching out. And I'm like, okay. I think I'm, like, exuding this energy that I maybe haven't, like, really felt in a while. And it's nice to start to feel, like, confident and excited and open to these things that I had been, like, pretty openly closed off to for a while. I was like, I'm just not dating right now. And it's like, like. And it's like, for the. You know, for reasons, like, it's fine to take a beat and figure it.
- [44:02]
A
Out, but I wanna. I wanna expand on that, that I'm just not dating right now because this has been heavy on my heart lately of people because we can't do a thing or it's not going well. The outcome that we get of it not going well is kind of like what we begin to accept and then form an identity to of like, oh, well, I'm just not gonna date. And I'm now a person who's not dating. I'm not dating. I'm not dating. But you want to be dating, right? And I. I'm trying to figure out wording for that, because the whole thing about something positive for positive people. I hope that it's clear that my intention is to empower people with choice. A lot of us who got herpes, we weren't given a choice in whether or not we were putting at risk for getting this or exposed to it. And so choice was taking away from us. So now we are empowered with the ability to give others that choice for themselves. And there's power in that. The power of choice is being exercised every time we put ourselves out there, every time we initiate this conversation, every time we disclose or discuss our status with someone, every time we unlock that vulnerability and are willing to share with someone else. We are reclaiming our power by giving power to other people of choice. And then we also get to make the decision and choose whether or not we move forward with them. But I think that a lot of people get beat down to the point where it's like, oh, you know, I'm never dating again. I'm just Going to be single, I'm going to be celibate. I'm not going to put myself out there. I'm done with dating apps. And we do that and it creates this negative of perpetual internalized stigma where that to me is probably the ultimate rejection. Accepting that you're just going to get this outcome that you don't want and then making yourself want it is a form of self rejection.
- [46:05]
B
Yeah, yeah. 100 and I. It wasn't out of nowhere. Not that, like it ever is. Right. But I think it was like, I also had like, Like, I laugh because it's so ridiculous. So to quickly go back to the first technically person I shared the diagnosis with, like a romantic setting that I like on a whim, met on a literal island off the coast of Portugal, like, whatever, totally hit it off, spent a week together. We were vibing, I shared it. He, like, literally recoiled, like bad vibes, right? Randomly run into this person again last year in Mexico, like, like, totally random. I'm like, okay, something is pulling us together, whatever. At that point, he's kind of like, I can't stop thinking about you. All these things, like, whatever, tries to hook up, I turn it down. I was like, you know, I'm not really feeling it. Then I set up a trip to Portugal again. It's my favorite place on the planet. And I go for like a post birthday trip. And I'm just like going there, it's happening. And he reaches out and he's like, oh, like, tell me about your trip. Like, my, you know what, can I, can I join? I was like, this is my trip. It's already set. Whatever. If you want to join, you can join. So I'm thinking there's all this build, like, obviously at least. I'm like, we're gonna have sex. Like, I'm like, that's for sure happening. This man meets me in a different country, changes his travel plans to take me out to a nice dinner, and that night tell me he's not comfortable with it. And I'm like, then why?
- [47:26]
A
Like, I think that speaks to the caliber of men you're attracting though. Because willing is that, you know, people are begging for attention from their boyfriend, their partner, and you got this man who just wants to take you out, gets to meet you out of the country, goes to dinner. Like, the amount of time, energy, money, effort goes into that.
- [47:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. But then it was this weird emotion of like, that all happened. So I'm imagining one thing and then it was like this weird kind of switch of, like, not comfortable with it. Can't. Pulls away, acts weird, haven't spoken since the trip. Like, just weird.
- [48:07]
A
Like, yeah, but shout out to you. Shout out to you for getting that kind of effort. Like, now you know that you are capable of receiving that level of. Of effort from somebody, and a lot of people don't let themselves receive that despite having herpes like that. That's what I want to highlight here. That is incredible.
- [48:27]
B
I know. I like that. I like that take.
- [48:30]
A
And he's someone who had to meet you where you are. You were like, hey, I'm doing this. I'm going to Portugal. And sex wasn't even on the mind. Or, I mean, I guess sex wasn't happening for him.
- [48:44]
B
I know. I'm like, okay, like, if that's your.
- [48:48]
A
Choice, like, and while you wanted the outcome of sex, right, like, you were still there for the journey, you still took your trip, you still went. He. You gave him the invite. And that's one of the things that's a perfect example of choice, right? You make the recommendation, you give him the choice, and you. That's it. Like, you gave him power in that situation, and that, therefore, is empowering for you. Yeah, yeah.
- [49:15]
B
No, and that's. It's interesting. I think I. I don't know. I think I was really frustrated by the outcome, and I think it was less about the person. I think it was so much weighing on. I was like, oh, I can. I can still have this diagnosis and fly to a different country and meet a man, and we can have, like, a little cross, you know, whatever. And then it just felt like, oh, no, I can't do that because of this. Which, again, is also not true. Like you told yourself. I know. Yeah.
- [49:44]
A
Yeah. But I guess this is. This is a great time to speak to the importance of community, because, like, we talked about this in the women's group this past Monday. When I say the word community, I see two words. I see common unity. And the common unity here, obviously, is herpes. But then there's also the common unity of being willing to examine this and take the wisdom from it. What is there to learn from living with herpes and going through the process of having stigma affect us, our behavior, socially, and all of that stuff? So that was like being able to share that in a room full of people. How many people would have had, like, different narratives attached to that? Like, you're like, oh, man, I can't even date and have.
- [50:28]
B
It's like, wait, you did all that?
- [50:31]
A
Like, I just want somebody to say, Hi to me. I just hold my hand. I just want somebody to. I want somebody to do what they say they're gonna do. You got all of that? So now you know that you're capable of it again. The more we practice doing the thing, the better we get. Get at it. So if you're practicing setting the expectations of this is where I'm at, you can meet me here and then you find that there are men willing to meet you there. The next thing is just going to be about identifying consistency.
- [50:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, that's real. That's. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [51:04]
A
Speaking of, support groups meet Mondays, 7:30pm Eastern Time. And yeah, there's a process to get, get into that thing. So just hit me up if you're interested. We are close ish to time. I like to ask if there's anything that you want to share or if there's anything you want to leave listeners with before I let you go.
- [51:25]
B
I think. Yeah, no, I think kind of just reiterating the, the piece for me that I think pulled me to this space and I think just really seeking out like I think across the board the community side of it is so important and I think there is something so valuable whether. And it's. It's finding the spaces where they exist. But I do think just being able because it was until this that I had spoken with anyone who shared the experience. And I think it feels different to talk to a therapist or talk to a family member or friend who, you know, best case are supportive and wonderful and help helpful but like not having gone through it themselves. I think there is something so different to be able to talk to people in that space. And I think in a weird way, not just the community of it, but I think I even, I think at times it kind of helped to remind me that I may be further along than I give myself credit for. Like I think which is like because there I have some bad days. Right. And like we all do get it. But like there was, I think there's just so much negativity and there's. Yeah. And there's just very clearly people that I've, you know, briefly spoken with that are not where I met. And I'm kind of like, well, I'm here. So I don't have any interest in playing like therapist or you know, X, Y, Z for you to get to where you need to be. But that's a nice realization because I don't think I felt that way until more recently, which is progress and exciting and makes me feel hopeful about about just even the confidence to say, like, yeah, that's not my dating pool. Like, my dating pool is much more vast, and that's exciting. And having that mindset versus, like, the limiting beliefs that I think I maybe started with.
- [53:08]
A
Yep. And you've had this for two years. It's been two years, and you've already had so much growth, so many experiences, and you've only just recently found something positive for positive people, which I think speaks volumes to the caliber of the different directions that we can go into for our healing process. Right. So your avenue was. Okay, you connected with your therapist. Your therapist told me. Told you about me. And, you know, here we are now, like, doing a fucking podcast episode. That's incredible to me. Like, this is. This is awesome. Like, I love that you're. All of the stories that we share, they're unique because of where I am in time. Where. Where you are in time. Because I've done interviews when I was not in a good place, and I've done interviews when I was overly enthusiastic and happy. And right now, I can say that I'm at a baseline. And I also want to just thank you for getting. For being here now and giving me the space, too, to, like, kind of be a little brave and just share some of my personal experience. There isn't much that I've shared, but to be able to, like, get back into the rhythm of talking openly about my dating life, despite being with Herpes, like, I. I think it's coming. I'm still not fully ready to just be like, here's what I'm doing and got going on. But it feels. It feels good to have been able to step into that. So thank you. I very much appreciate you, the timing for you coming on here and being able to share your experience. And then we already talked about anonymity, so that's it. I don't think I had to say your name at all.
- [54:45]
B
No, I don't think so. I probably said it, and that's why I'm not concerned about that.
- [54:49]
A
But, yeah, okay. I'll be telling people, like, I have no reason to say your name. So, like, yeah, we're on video.
- [54:55]
B
Yeah.
- [54:56]
A
Yes. But, like, I'm only going to use audio. Are you willing to share just, like, what this experience is for you while we got a couple minutes? Like, how. How was the interview for you?
- [55:07]
B
Good, I think it's something where I think twofold. I think, you know, slightly selfishly, I'm like, I think this will be a good experience for me. Me to be Able to kind of, like, talk freely about this, like, talk about it in a way. I think it's even, like, progress to, like, not get emotional talking about it. I think early on it's very. Just, like, heavy and tied in with other things. And I think, yeah, I don't know. I. I just again, think the organization, the podcast and everything just, like, immediately spoke to me in a way of, like, this is what, like, this needed to exist. Like, and I think it's not the lack of resources that, like, some of us are probably led to believe is. Is the reality. And I think just like, yeah, I saw that, like, herpes awareness day is, like, coming up on Monday. And, like, which I was just, like, I'm very aware, but, like, what does this mean? And, like, what can I, like, you know, I don't know. I think there's a. There's a future potentially where I'm a bit louder about it. And I don't know what that looks like because I think current state for me is like, I own my own personal company. A lot of that is very tied into something where I think there's a fear of, like, putting it all out there and then, like, so many people know. But I think there's also a reality where I'm kind of like, you know, this has been something I've been dealing with. It hasn't been easy, and I would love to also be someone who can help other people who are experiencing it. And. And that, I think, goes so far for me to be able to say, like, oh, my gosh, like, it's, you know, and then it's kind of like a reminder to yourself of. Of, like, it's really not that big. Like, I'm just, like, physically, not a big deal in the slightest. Emotionally, that has been the challenging part. But even that, like, progress has been made. So no. And I. And again, I love hopping on a podcast. I can, like, talk all day, so that experience is always fun for me, but.
- [56:50]
A
I was on mute. All right, good. Well, thank you. I appreciate you being on here and sharing your experience. And I mean, that's really what the process is. If anybody's curious about. About being a podcast guest, just go to spfpp.org podcast scroll down a little bit, fill out the intake form, and I will reach out to you. And it's as simple as that. As I mentioned, we've got the Monday support groups virtually 7:30pm Eastern time, and this is every Monday. They alternate. First and third Monday are the women's groups. The second and fourth are the men's groups and December 12th event in New York City. It'll be in Brooklyn. I'm sorry, Brooklyn, New York. So if you're in the one of the surrounding areas, if you're in town for the weekend, come through 5pm to 9pm and then we'll probably just migrate to somewhere else. But yeah, I'm looking forward to being able to facilitate this space and keep it going. That's it. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like rate, review, share, subscribe to this podcast, the organization and get involved however you you see fit to do so. Till next time, stay present. And now here's that long pause between me scrolling to the part where it says I'd have been pissed if I wasn't recording. All right, here we go. Stop recording. And now you got to hit the stop.