A (3:19)

Real quick, Let me ask you this. So I'm John. I have HSV2. What made you lead with that in your introduction? Out of curiosity.

B (3:30)

Oh, this is a kind of a podcast for that, so my meeting could take a little back seat. But, you know, they're linked together, at least for me, in terms of get my identity. Okay. Yeah.

A (3:41)

And that makes sense. I was just like, wait a minute, why you say that? Because one of the things that I think I do with this platform is I try to give people the opportunity to see themselves and be themselves, express themselves, like, outside of the herpes diagnosis, which I'm glad you followed up with the sex addiction, because that'll be a lot of what we talk about here and your experience with that. But I just wanted to hear from your words, what made you leave with that? And the fact that we're on a podcast where I literally interview people at Herpes makes sense, so I'm gonna let it slide here.

A (4:19)

So starting with the first question, like, how you find me, what made you reach out? Uh, let's speak a little bit about.

B (4:27)

Um, so I found you for looking for support groups. Um, I was, you know, I had a bad outbreak in October, Lasted about a month, kind of coming and going.

B (4:39)

Get a blood test, everything, you know. And in November, I started feeling really isolated. I started feeling really alone. And I told a couple people from my recovery programs about it, but, you know, they don't have this. So it's that same feeling of they can't fully relate. They were supportive, but they can't relate. And I was talking to one person.

B (5:00)

And they said, you should look for a support group. And I found this one. And I don't know, just that day, I was feeling really, really bad that day. Like, almost like panic attack levels. And I decided to, you know, reach out. And luckily we jumped on a call, like, half an hour later.

A (5:18)

I think I was talking to you while I was on the train. I was on the train, and we were kind of in and out, and it was just enough for us to be able to get through the call for me to, first off, thank you for being patient with me in that the. The signal kept dropping and you weren't always able to hear me. But, yeah, I thought that you had a very interesting experience worth sharing here. And I want to shout out Chris Pickering from Pickering Fitness. He spoke on Beck Antonucci's podcast about struggling with erectile dysfunction at a young age. So it. It made me think about different vulnerabilities and other things that maybe we struggle with or have an identification with. As you were sharing about your experience with sex addiction, and I was like, oh, maybe it would be helpful to just share your experience as well and maybe experience a little bit of freedom from that. So can you talk to us a little bit about your. With sex addiction, how it was described to you, how you found out, and then. Anything else that you want to share?

B (6:29)

Yeah, I have been in sex addiction recovery for three years now. Currently 14 months sober, which I'm grateful for.

B (6:40)

For. Sex addiction for me isn't just about the sex addiction. It's about, you know, I think someone put, you know, someone mentioned it to me, and it kind of, I think, was actually my therapist. He's like, it's not just sex addiction. It's addiction to sexuality. You know, it could be any forms, you know, healthy masturbation, it could be porn, it could be sex, anything where I'm just using that to regulate myself. And I've probably been this way since I was, you know, 32 now. Probably been this way since I was 18. I never was really addicted to drugs or alcohol. Never really did anything like that. Probably because I was scared to death of my mother finding out and killing me. So this seemed like the safe bet. And I think a couple times I started realizing that I had a problem.

B (7:27)

But, you know, I guess like any addict, I didn't care. I kept pushing myself, you know, getting myself into situations I shouldn't have been in, putting my health at risk, obviously, which, you know, could be a consequence. But what kind of made me realize it was I got myself into kind of a very dangerous situation in terms of seeing a sex worker because I couldn't stop. Ended up having to steal money from my parents to pay for an extortion, which definitely kind of broke their hearts, but it kind of woke me up. Like, that's what I needed to make me realize and finally admit that I had a problem and I needed help.

A (8:06)

What do you mean, pay for extortion?

B (8:10)

The person threatened me. I was seeing them on and off, and then they had my, like, I was, they had my personal number. They kept bothering me, calling me multiple times a day, threatening me, threatening my family. And, you know, that's when I realized, like, no, this is not just something I can just do on the side. This is something serious. And, you know, I couldn't stop. It was compulsive.

A (8:36)

So I wanna, I, I wanna, let's take a little, let's, let's sit here for a second, right? Because one of the things that I want to highlight too is that seeing a sex worker is not inherently a bad thing. Now when you speak about it from the addiction perspective and being extorted, like those aspects of it, like those poor consequences outcomes, like that's, that sucks. Now I want to ask, was this starting out as maybe a healthy expression or relationship with you and the sex worker?

B (9:14)

I think it was just me thinking that maybe we were friends. And honestly, you know, I had to admit to myself that they saw me as a means to survive for money, and I saw them as a means to not myself out promotionally. And I've been doing that before I realized it. You know, looking back on it, if I had a bad week, I would go and engage. If I had a good week, go and engage. And now when I, looking back, I'm like, now that's just me relying on that. No matter what, bad week, something lift me up, good week, something to bring me up.

A (9:46)

That's okay. Because I was looking to, at trying to figure out how do you know something's an addiction, right? I can have sex, I can do drugs, I can smoke cigarettes, I can drink, right? You can do these things and it not be an addiction. And then you can do these things and they are an addiction. So the way that you described it, it didn't matter if you had a good week or a bad week, you just found a reason to do it. So what's the difference, I guess, between it being an addiction and just being a healthy form of expression or connecting with the person?

B (10:23)

Well, um, I have to fully admit, when I was acting out, I honestly didn't care about the person. They were a means to an end. I got myself in some situations where the person was in their addiction and my, you know, my conscience was screaming, you shouldn't be doing this. And I didn't care, you know, I didn't really care about them. I just, I didn't see them as a person. That's, you know, that's the truth of it. I didn't see them as a person, which is probably one of my Biggest regrets. But I was addictive. I didn't care. I just wanted to my means to my end. And, you know, I had to realize that I was seeing these people for their body, not for them for their body. And that's when my therapist is like, yeah, no, this is an addiction, because you're not actually trying to develop a friendship. You're just seeing them as an object and, you know, something I have to live with.

A (11:14)

Yeah. So was there a particular act that you were looking for? And you don't have to go, like, into too much detail by any means. Was there an act you were looking to fulfill, or was it just a matter of achieving orgasm?

B (11:28)

I think it was just me looking for that dopamine hit to feel better. A little bit of backstory. My father had been suffering from depression probably since I was 16, and I think that was, you know, not. I'm not blaming him, but it was definitely a kind of big emotional weight because I had to push myself. I had to be there for my family. And honestly, you know, looking back on it, 18, 19 years old, I couldn't do that. And this was my way to numb myself out, to push myself to limits that I never could have done before. And, you know, looking back on it, that's what I needed to survive back then. But, you know, it. It wasn't the right thing to do, looking back on it.

A (12:11)

So you kind of had to become the man of the family while you were still a kid.

B (12:18)

Yeah.

A (12:19)

And you didn't really get to have the play or the kid experiences, and maybe some of that was contributing to you. I don't want to say making up for lost time, but living out, you know, in a way that now, as someone older than 18, 19, you know, those earlier years where you were kind of forced into adulthood, where you said 16 was when your father had depression, so you had to become the man pretty early. And you missed out on some years of adolescence and being a teenager and being able to.

A (12:54)

Have those experiences with your hormones and being able to have the space to express that, like, among your. Your peers. I think about, like, route being.

A (13:07)

In that transition around friends. And then when you're curious about sex, being able to be curious about sex in ways where, like, the environment is a space for curiosity about sex. But then you're thrown into having to become a man, and you don't really know what that looks like. You're just thrown into having to be a man. And you have these urges and desires, and now you have the means of acquiring them with Information that you as a child wouldn't have gotten. So it creates this new system of potential expressions for you to express sexually. I hope what I'm just saying makes sense, but let me know if you need any elaboration there. But is that accurate?

B (13:51)

Yeah, honestly, that's what I was trying to do. I think I got thrust into a situation where I felt that I had to become. And something my friends talk about in recovery, we all got the hero syndrome. I felt like I needed to become the hero. I had to become the unbreakable person. And, you know, no, but no one's like that. No one can. No one's unbreakable. And I realize that now. But I pushed myself, and I kept telling myself that I have to be the rock. I have to be unbreakable. I can't show weakness. And before I knew it, something, you know, sexual just turned into an addiction where I would just look to it to constantly just regulate my emotions and just navigate myself during the week. And, you know, started off, you know, maybe innocent and curiosity. But then eventually it came to the point. Point where it was just me needing it constantly. I just couldn't stop.

A (14:41)

Yeah. Was there anything else that you might have expressed feelings or expressions of addiction toward outside of sex? Like maybe before that.

B (14:56)

That. I've also been a compulsive overspender probably since I've been about 17, 18. Get gift money for high school graduation and then spending it. And that was something I put on the back burner. Something actually recently been really focusing on and doing better on. But I was a compulsive overspender and a sex addict. And I think, you know, I realized lately is that the two of them were kind of interlinked, especially when it came to paying for sex at times, because it's like I get the hit off of paying for money and then, you know, spending on something I wanted the physical just. It was. It was really struggling to really kind of deal with early on. I was like, why is this so bad? Why can't I stop when some people can? And I was like, oh, wait a minute. I'm spending over addiction too. No wonder why.

A (15:42)

Yeah, so it was the spending beforehand. So you noticed that with, like, graduation money that you were having an addiction to spending. Was it the things that you got, or was it the act of spending? I think I heard you say the act of spending gave you a dopamine hit.

B (16:01)

Yeah, it was the act of spending and actually just getting stuff. Because, you know, looking back on it, I admit I tried to buy my happiness. Because I think in reality, deep down, I wasn't happy. I was insecure about myself. I was insecure about love, how people, you know, if people put up with me because I'm adopted by a different nationality. And I think that created some issues where, you know, looking back on it, I always had this viewpoint growing up, which, you know, I realize is not true, but I had this viewpoint, if my birth mother can give me up, what's going to stop my adopted parents from giving me up? And what's going to stop other people from giving me up? And was an emotional void I had for years.

A (16:43)

What the fuck do you do with this emotional awareness?

B (16:49)

Me right now? Go therapy and talk to people.

B (16:53)

And actually being grateful that I'm aware of these things now because I think deep down I buried them. I buried them for so long. I was so insecure about myself that people were just putting up with me, were going to kick me to the curb. And I was trying to buy happiness because I wasn't happy. I was unsure of myself. I was unsure if people legitimately cared about me. And this was my escape. This was my route to feel better by buying whatever I could and having, you know, sex or, you know, in relationships, being a love addict, too, just trying to fill that empty void. And it never worked.

A (17:30)

So what's the difference between being a sex addict and then being a love addict? Because I thought they might have been the same thing. But now that I'm saying it out loud and sitting here with you, I'm thinking you don't see the person as a person. You still see them as a means to an end, on one hand, through sex and sexual acts and through the end of love. Being, perhaps having the emotional connection and the intimacy, but.

A (18:00)

Seeing them as that, or I'm sorry, not as people, but only seeing them as a means of achieving that.

B (18:09)

For me, I identify as a love addict because, you know, for a while I'm quick to develop feelings and get attachments to people for relationships wise. And I remember with my ex, you know, looking back on it, I noticed this when I first entered recovery, you know, before I met my ex, I could not stop compulsive sex with sex workers, friends with benefits, you know, all that other kind of stuff. Soon as I met my ex, though, all of that stopped because I was getting a bigger dopamine hit from her. Oh, my God, this is someone who's not a family member and she cares about me. She likes me. That was like the biggest dopamine hit all the sex addiction just came right to a halt, stopped. And I was getting that addiction off her, a love addiction. And, you know, that's when I realized looking back, I'm like, oh, yeah, no, I was getting overly attached to her because I was having. I was expecting her to fill the void that I couldn't fill for myself.

A (19:07)

Yeah. So what I'm hearing here is there is. And please describe to me how addiction feels for you. But the way that I'm hearing it is there's this drive toward.

A (19:21)

Outcome, and it just needs to be an outcome. And you've mentioned dad depressed, being adopted, so having to be the man of the house. So there's a lot of childhood markers of events that have occurred that can contribute to how you see the world and how you respond to it.

A (19:43)

And as I'm thinking about what addiction maybe feels like, is that compulsion towards some form of soothing. And you can get it. You got it from your relationship, so you didn't need it from sex. You didn't need it from spending. You didn't need it from any of those other places because the addiction had sort of something to attach to. So addiction being sort of like a force that is a. It's a driving force towards something. It doesn't have to be five things that you can get addicted to, because if you have one of those things where the addiction is just being tended to, then the other four don't really matter. Is that accurate?

B (20:30)

Yeah, that's actually. That's kind of what my therapist says. It's like, you know, I think we say this about recovery. You take care of the addiction that's going to kill you first, and then you take care of other ones. Because my therapist was like, oh, people, A lot of people are multiply addicted. Not everyone admits it, but can people tend to be multiply addicted? And, you know, for me, it was soothing. That's what it was. For me, I was looking. I guess it was a form of control for me because I felt like my life was just spiraling out of control. Things were, you know, stressful at home, things were bad. You know, my mother was under stress and everything. And then this comes along and I feel good afterwards or I feel good during it. And then I was like, oh, this feels good. Let me go back to that. And then we go back to it. Let me go back to it. And just to the point where I was relying on that to regulate me and keep me centered and to keep me going. Because honestly, I think if I didn't, I probably would have Had a nervous breakdown. Under the stress, I probably would have had to stop college and everything, but I. You know, it was definitely the thing that kind of kept me going because it gutted me emotionally. I was. I was numb. And I remember feeling that way sometimes when some relatives would die, we'd be at a wake, and I just sat there. I just didn't feel anything. And, you know, looking back, I was like, why did I feel that way? Oh, because I was just so, I guess, addicted. And so in my high quote, unquote, I didn't feel anything. I was numbed out. I was emotionally dead to describe myself.

A (22:00)

Man. So the addition also sucked the life out of you. Is that accurate to say? Yeah, and. Oh, go ahead, Go ahead.

B (22:12)

No, I was emotionally numb. And I even remember this. When my grandmother passed away, I didn't cry once. I kind of just was like, they're sitting with it. And I think probably that urges to go indulge in my addictions.

A (22:26)

Birth grandmother or adopted grandmother? Adopted. Which one?

B (22:31)

Adopted grandmother.

A (22:33)

Okay, so you don't think that maybe it didn't have anything to do with the fact that y' all weren't blood adopted or. How long. What age were you adopted?

B (22:41)

I was adopted. Six months old.

A (22:44)

Okay. All right. So when you say your dad was.

B (22:47)

Depressed, I mean, my adopted family.

A (22:50)

Got it. Okay.

B (22:51)

My birth mother is my birth mother. Otherwise, if I refer my mom and dad, I'm gonna talk about my adopted family because they're my. Thank you.

A (22:58)

Thank you for clearing that up, because I. I didn't even think to inquire on that.

A (23:04)

So was it just that maybe you didn't have a connection to. Well, no, because you. That's all you knew. But did being adopted shape or form any kind of barriers? I guess when you found out you were adopted, any barriers to your family to feel like, oh, this isn't my family, or, oh, I'm not connected to them? Did that happen for you?

B (23:26)

Yeah, that's. I think that's probably one of the main, core reasons why I'm a sex and love addict and codependent and seek validation. You know, I was. You know, I definitely did love my grandmother, was close with her, or I tried to be.

B (23:42)

But I think when it came to my parents, I always had this doubt. If I screwed up, if I did bad, they would kick me to the curb and anonymously. I hate to say this, but I, you know, part of my family didn't treat. Not my immediate. Not my, you know, my mother's immediate family, but, like, second cousins, Third cousins, like other branches of the family, I guess, always felt, like, odd. I always felt like the black sheep of the family. Didn't look like them, and I wasn't really fully accepted. But then again, they don't really accept our family as it is too, because they have, like, I don't know, they have like this attitude. But, you know, it definitely felt even more worse because it's like, oh, they don't accept us. And they definitely don't accept me because I don't look like them. And, you know, same thing on some of my families. You know, my. Both my parents, sides of their families, you know, immediate family was fine. Outside the immediate family, though, I felt excluded and I felt alone. And I think, you know, it definitely kind of shaped me to kind of like, look for any type of attachment where I could. And, you know, I think even growing up in school, early on in elementary school, I was, you know, bullied at times. Eventually, you know, stopped by middle school and I was fine for the rest of my years. But after that, you know, still, same thing. Trying to fit in, trying to find that group.

A (25:03)

Let's talk a little bit about the word attachment. I know we ain't talked about herpes yet, so I, I. When you said attachment, I had a little bit of a sensation in the body to follow up about that. Can you speak to me about how attachment plays a role in your experience with addiction? Just that can be your personal experience or whatever you and your therapist have talked about.

B (25:31)

Yeah, attachment was probably the reason why I turned to casual sex a lot. Is my addiction because I wanted the intimacy but without the fear of rejection. I paid for that or I just hooked up with this person. Okay, I'm giving that intimate feeling, but I don't have to ask you out. I don't have to be an actual relationship because I'm afraid at my core you're going to reject me. You're going to toss me to the curb. So this was a way into it without getting the emotional attachment. And I could cut this person off anytime I needed. And, you know, that wasn't really, that wasn't healthy. That was not healthy. And it definitely really kind of hampered even, you know, how I viewed my relationship, my last relationship, because I, you know, even though I tried with that one, didn't end up working out. Well, mostly because of me and, you know, my things. But, you know, attachment for me was I was too afraid to take those risks. I was too afraid to, you know, venture out and meet new people, which is why my Therapist says I am what they call socially anorexic. Where I want to socialize, but I'm afraid of rejection so I don't socialize. I cut off my nose despite my face.

A (26:45)

What you're describing to me sounds more like non attachment. Like you, you can't attach to people because you're attached to what you get from them. And if you can't get the thing from them, then it's easy for you to discard them. That's how it sounds to me. Is that, am I hearing that wrong or what?

B (27:07)

No, I think it's in, I think it's in like two different forms. It's in that form definitely in terms of like the sex and the intimacy. And then the other part it's just like, oh, I complained that, oh, I used to feel lonely. I don't have that many friends as I used to have. Well, was I venturing out to meet new people? No, because I was afraid, oh, I'm going to go out and try to meet new people. And they're just going to say, who the heck is this guy? We don't want to talk to him, get away from us. That's what I always say. So like I'm not going to go. And then my therapist finally convinced me of just start going out and making new friends. And I have been doing that and it's been game changing for me lately.

A (27:42)

So the thing that you mentioned about, you mentioned fear of rejection. Is that something that you had.

A (27:53)

And now. Oh, go ahead.

B (27:55)

Yeah, no, I always had that which is why I turned to this next nation and in. Honestly, I think this is why November, that's part of the reason why I reached out to the support group, this support group because, you know, it feels like this weird. There is a stigma, you know, not just with herpes, is a stigma anything when talking about sexuality, you know, healthy, unhealthy. And you know, it's weird because I do have a couple friends that are like, you know, covering alcoholics or you know, covering drug addicts or whatever. And there's like, I always feel like there's this weird kind of like feeling when you talk, when you tell somebody where if someone tells you that because then usually the response is, oh, that's great, you're recovering, great for you. And I made the mistake early on of telling somebody I was a recovering sex addict and that kind of ended the friendship because there's that weird stigma to it. They people like, like, oh, like, oh, that's weird, you're weird. Or you know, You're a pervert or something.

A (28:49)

That's what I was thinking. I was like, they must have heard it like, oh, you have a problem. Not that you recognize this pattern of behavior, and you're actively doing the things and taking the steps that a healthy person would take to alleviate the. Or solve what. I don't even want to call it a problem, but to engage with whatever it is that the condition, the pattern is for you to work through it. And it pisses me off that people are like that. It pisses me off that when you are doing the right thing, how easy it is for someone to make us feel bad for doing what we should be doing.

B (29:33)

Yeah, that's actually. You know, it's funny. I just thought of this. That's why, you know, when you ask me, oh, why did you introduce yourself as herpes 2 positive immunolate? Because I'm being open about myself. Because I think I'm really starting to accept that I'm not just the sex addict. I'm not just a herpes 2 positive. I'm John. This is part of me, but it's not the whole thing. And I think that's part of the reason why, you know, I looked for that support group, though, you know, and because I needed the support. I needed people to understand that, you know, I have this because there, like I said, there is that stigma. And I felt like I really needed support because, you know, I've been describing it as, like, I feel like I have a nail in the coffin already, which isn't true, but this is just my, you know, fear saying, oh, who's gonna want to be with the sex addict? You know, it's different than, oh, you're being a recovering alcoholic. You can survive without, you know, alcohol, whatever. We'll just go to a dry place. But, like, sex addict, like, okay, there's sex and intimacy. There's sex in a relationship. What does that mean for somebody? And then, oh, that I'm only my sex addict. I'm a love addict, and I'm herpes 2 positive. What does that mean for me? Is that another nail in the coffin? And it's kind of like, you know, that's. I think that's why I reached out for the support group, because lately I've been feeling really.

B (30:48)

I guess, scared and nervous up until the last couple days because my sex addiction was like, oh, my God, we're gonna die. Causing me to go into fight or flight mode. Because, you know, it was trying to tell me that, you know, my sex addiction is trying to tell me, hey, this is the only thing about us. We're just sex addicts. And because we can't partake in this because of herpes at the moment, you know we're going to die. But then, you know, lately I've been like, well, herpes right now is not affecting me going to work. It's not affecting me what I eat. It's not affecting me. You know, all this other stuff, all these 95% of my life is the same. It's only affecting the sex addiction part. And the sex addiction part is what's causing me to panic and freak out. Because right now, go to work, hanging out with friends, still doing my hobbies, everything's the same. I'm still me. I'm not always herpes infected. I don't have leprosy. I'm still the same.

A (31:42)

If you yourself are someone who is in recovery for sex addiction.

A (31:50)

How do you know if entering a relationship where there's a healthy sexual relationship, how do you know when you're in addiction versus you're in relationship?

B (32:04)

I'll be honest, I don't know. Because at least for right now, in my recovery, I'm still finding out new. I'm still working on myself. And, you know, for a lot of people in, you know, or love addicts, they decide not to date for a while. And right now I'm like, if I go to date, I'm going to be dating for the wrong reasons. I'm going to be reading, I'm going to be looking for validation, not to feel alone. And I have to be fully comfortable with myself. And once I come to terms, because I'm still in the transition period of accepting that I'm herpes too, positive that I have to make some lifestyle changes occasionally. And once I come to terms with that, I'll address it because I have had feelings. I'm like, oh, maybe I should start to date soon. And then this happened. And now I'm kind of like, we'll give it time. I might feel different in a month or two. I might feel different tomorrow. But right now, I'm not ready for that yet. And I'll know when I'm ready for it because I feel like something's been changing with me, that I feel more confident in myself. And I think that's why, you know, like I said, I said, I'm herpes deposit. I'm a sex addict. I'm being more open with myself because I think I'm getting tired of just trying to hide who I am because I Know, these things don't define me. I'm more than this. And I feel like I want to embrace that. I'm tired of just pretending I'm not who I think I am.

A (33:24)

That's why I wanted to interview you.

B (33:25)

Ah.

A (33:26)

Like, just when I spoke to you on the phone, I had this moment of being like, what the fuck can I do for you? Like, you're. You're in therapy. You're saying the things from being in recovery as well, that I would question a person about or inquire on or challenge them on. If we're having a support call, like, you're already verbalizing the things, and you're at a place where I wonder, what. What do you need? What can I do for you? And the only thing that I felt in my body to ask you to do was just to share your experience and put that out there. I know that you mentioned feeling anxious. I can't remember the. Any other words that you had mentioned on our call. But if you can go back to that space, can you explain what you were feeling at the time that we were having our call? Like, how are you feeling?

B (34:19)

I was feeling very scared. I was feeling anxious.

B (34:24)

I was a lot, for a lot of different reasons. Number one, because the outbreak in October was, you know, kept coming and going, and I was on the pills, and I think I was getting some bad side effects, too, from the pills, because I was feeling really depressed. And I think I was starting to get to the point where it's anxious because I was feeling everything. I was feeling scared that the outbreak was never going to go away. I was scared if I stopped taking it, the outbreak is going to come back. And one of my healthy things has been exercising on an exercise bike, which I haven't done in over two months now because of the outbreak. I'm giving myself time to heal now. And, you know, I, you know, I went to a second opinion for a doctor. I'm not taking a daily suppressant at the moment because I'm not in a relationship. And my doctor was like, okay, finished my last pill yesterday. And I admit this morning I woke up really nervous because I'm like, what if this comes back? What if this. What if I have another outbreak immediately? And I started getting that panicky feeling, which is, you know, I understand that, yeah, they come and go. But I'm like, right now I feel like I'm still in the trenches. I'm starting to get out, starting to go to the back of the line to relax. But that thought popped up. What Happens. How am I going to feel if another outbreak comes up? Will it go away? But I have another refill. I have some extra pills at home. Like, okay, I'll just take it if I need to. Like, I'm starting to come to terms with it. But I was afraid that it was never going to go away, that I would never be able to use my exercise bike. And my sex addiction was telling me, oh, well, we're going to be celibate and a monk. And my sex addiction was, like, screaming and screaming at me, like, oh, my God, we're gonna die. Which is why I was feeling scared and nervous.

A (35:56)

So you get dysregulated. You have an intense, intense emotional response. And to get back to your. In yoga, there's the three states of everything. There's rajas, which is motion, satva, which is stillness. And then. I'm sorry, Thomas, which is stillness or slowness. And then there's satva, which is like a perfect state, which would be us in regulation. So something dysregulates you and your emotions or your inside world does this. It's constantly in motion. And then to ground yourself, that's where you seek some form of connection through your addictive behavior. Is that an accurate representation?

B (36:45)

Yeah. And that is honestly what the real struggle has been lately. Because when I am in that fight or flight mode, my brain is telling me sex addiction is the way to solve this. And, you know, it took me a while to figure out what healthy sexuality for myself was, you know, and then I figured it out, and then I'm like, okay, now this isn't, you know, I have to be safe. I can't, you know, endanger a partner or whatever. But when I'm feeling this way, my body and my brain telling me, oh, my God, we need some form of sex to regulate ourselves. But when I'm having an outbreak or I'm still healing from an outbreak, it's not a possibility. So I'm kind of just like sitting there like, okay, I have all these emotions. I feel completely overwhelmed. And my addiction is telling me that I need this, but I can't do that. And that was really kind of what was making me struggle. And it made me realize, oh, my God, I think I'm going through sex addiction withdrawal again. It's that same feeling I had three years ago, because my sex addiction's like, we're never going to have anything again. But I don't really. You know, it's that thing we say is like, I want it, but I don't need it.

B (37:52)

And it was tough.

A (37:56)

All right. Thank you for everything that you shared to this point. I had one other question that popped up for me, which was to be in a relationship with someone who's in recovery. Because you said this to me on the phone, I believe that you're in recovery for the rest of your life. Maybe you didn't say that. Maybe I heard that. But, like, you're always in recovery. So what does it look like to be in a relationship, let's say with you or with a person who is in recovery? What can the relationship dynamic look like? Because, like we said, there's a stigma to everything. So someone might go, oh, I'd never date someone. Someone who's had a sex addiction or who's had an addiction before who has a diagnosis. Right. And I've been looking at this for myself, just looking at different mental health conditions and looking at what it's like to date someone who has a mental health diagnosis and what you need to know and what you need to do as a partner. Unless you have a diagnosis yourself, you don't really understand. So do you feel like your options are only limited to. To people who maybe also are in recovery, or do you. What. What can we speak to as. As far as you can, being in a relationship with someone who is not in recovery for sex addiction, but who can understand what your needs are in a relationship?

B (39:20)

I think for me, I mean, I'm not in a relationship, but I think for me, I. This is saying what I think I need. I. Well, number one, I need to communicate with this person openly, and I need this person to communicate with them, or I need them to communicate with me, not, you know, trying to, I guess, play it safe, dance around certain subjects. Like, if there's a subject we have to talk about, then I want to talk about it. And that's something, you know, I've been doing lately. Ironically, after your call, I told my parents about my diagnosis because I felt like I was constructing a mental prison for myself, you know, And I think that's, like, a weird thing because, like, you know, I was trying to look for advice for some people, something like, oh, we're not into sexual relationship. Why'd you tell your parents? It's like, well, if you trust and your parents support you, why wouldn't you tell them? And I did. And I was really worried, like, oh, my God, because they know I'm a recovering sex addict, obviously. Because, you know, the extortion thing, I was worried, oh, my God, they're gonna think badly of me and my mom's like, okay, I had shingles, remember?

B (40:22)

And it was nice and supportive, but, like, communication is what's really what I need. I think that's what. Honestly, I'm gonna say this, and maybe I don't fully believe it, but I'm trying to believe it. Herpes 2 diagnosis is starting to become a little bit of a blessing in disguise. It's affected me, but I'm getting better at communicating. I'm really being open with people about how I feel. I'm not. I think what I realized, like, I was slowly sipping back into my old habits of smiling, pretending that I was feeling okay. In reality, I wasn't. I was scared, I was nervous. I felt like crying. I did cry at times, come to terms with this. And now I'm kind of being open. I'm just saying, yeah, no, I'm not feeling too great today. I feel like crap just being honest about it. I think it's helping me more with my honesty, probably the last three years than recovery has. It's really helping me be honest with myself and with other people and communicating. Hey, I'm not doing good right now. I need a little space. I need a little help. I need you to be gentle with me because right now my brain is spinning and I feel like my whole world's flipped upside down. And I just need some time to just sit or be by myself or be around people. And it's been helpful. It's really helpful just communicating how I feel because I've gotten so used to not communicating how I feel.

A (41:34)

So what I hear is as.

A (41:38)

An emotionally aware person, self aware person.

A (41:42)

You are taking the onus of communicating. So you need to feel the safety in the relationship to be able to communicate or you're going to communicate well. All you need is to be understood in that communication. And it can be a healthy relationship dynamic as far as we know or can speculate. I love the accountability.

B (42:08)

That's. Honestly. Yeah, you summed it up. That's. That's what I've been needing from other people. And instead of waiting for them to initiate it, I'm starting to initiate it because I've always been like, I'll talk about when I get confronted about it. Because that's the addict secret behavior. And, you know, lately I haven't been doing that. Lately I've been really open with people. Actually told one of my meetings that I was herpes 2 positive. And I did it not just to feel better, but I also kind of wanted to remind other sex addicts that, like, you know, because some, because, you know, some of us do struggle. Some of us, you know, haven't, don't have sobriety. I'm just like, I remember telling one person, like, it's just not worth it. It's not worth it considering how awful and painful October was, how I still have nerve pain, tingling left over and still healing. It's not worth it. It's worth it to get the help for it. It's not worth it to, you know, hurt myself physically.

A (43:02)

I can't wait to come to your TED Talk, man. I. I can't wait. This is just like an interview whenever you get a chance to listen to this and see how you feel about it, and maybe you want to proactively orchestrate your story and be able to tell it with the beginning, middle, and end your own way outside of just the herpes context. Unless you want to include that, let me know where it is so I can make myself available to, to come to that, that, that, that talk that you're going to do, man, I see really big things for you. I appreciate your willingness to, especially so freshly into this, be here to share your experience, because I think that this is how we heal. We heal through not only having our stories witnessed by other people and being able to share them, but through what's possible on the other side of knowing it's. It's out there. Right? So we're having this moment right now. It's 5:13pm Eastern Time on Wednesday, December 3, 2025. Somebody could listen to this in 10 years and be like, damn, that's me. I want to do something different for myself. And you did that by showing up here and being willing to share your experience. That. That sounded like I was ending the podcast, but I actually, because you, having told your parents and you, you spoke a little bit about this, but I want to just ask, like, how do you feel now after having told your parents? Right. Has anything changed for you? Do you regret it? Was this what you needed?

B (44:36)

It definitely lightened the load because I think what for me, because I still live with my parents, because I was a caretaker for a while for them, still trying to figure out what an adult means for myself. But I felt like I was sneak. I felt like I was back in my old addictive habits, keeping secrets, sneaking off to the doctor, sneaking my medication in, and it was eating away at me because I'm like, I don't want to live this way anymore. I want to be open and honest with other people. And that finally, after our Conversation. And actually another recovery call afterwards. I was like, no, I'm going to be honest about this, because I don't want to live in secrets anymore. And we say recovery, at least our meanings. You're only as secret. You're only as sick as your secret. And I was keeping it a secret. I was feeling sick about it. And like, someone said, I was constructing a mental prison for myself, and I wasn't aware that I was. And it's been great because I was getting tired of coming home after work, smiling and saying, yeah, my day was good. And I would go to bed, listen to music, try to calm down mid panic attack. And now I'm like. I would go home and be like, yeah, no, I kind of barely got through the day. And then just stay like, okay, all right, leave me alone. Because sometimes I felt overstimulated, like I was doing too much, being overwhelmed. And because they're. Because I had communication, I was like, hey, I'm not doing too well today. Hey, I'm really nervous today. I'm really scared right now. And we would take it easy. They would kind of, like, be there if I needed to talk to them, but then they'd be kind of like, okay, we'll take care of some of our own stuff. We'll kind of let you be for a little bit. If you need to lay down, listen some music or relax for a little bit, Try to calm yourself down. Go ahead. Reduction force anything from you, because you're communicating this to us.

A (46:11)

And that same thing that applies in relationships applies with your family, friends, people close to you. Hey, I need to just be able to say, this is how I'm feeling. I know what I need. Like, if you're gonna be supportive, just support me in meeting my own needs. You're not keeping the secret and coming to them to meet your needs without them even knowing what your needs are. God damn, that's deep. That's deep. And, like, I can admit, too, something that I've struggled with as well is asking for what I need. Not only is it asking for what I need, but even taking. Making space to acknowledge that I do have a need. Because for so long, I've tried to appear needless. And this was a conversation I had with my dad a few years ago about this. I would be like, you didn't get. You didn't do anything for me. He was like, so you never asked me for anything? And I realized, wow, I didn't. I would always say, hey, my mom said I need. Or my mom told me to tell you that, and I'm witnessing that even now, how difficult it is even to ask for things like sexually, like if I just want some head or if I want to have sex. Right. Just being able to ask for that is something that is a challenge also because there's even a stigma around like asking directly for sex. Right. Like you're supposed to be smooth or be cool or like you got to do it in such an artful way that is also manipulative. So there's this line too that you got to navigate even in that. So while I may not identify as someone who has an addiction, I think that there are these tendencies that you've spoken about about throughout the podcast interview that we've done. The secrecy, the ongoing drive and force for an outcome, the attachment or even non attachment, the objectification. There are all these things that have maybe one or two might not indicate a need for treatment necessarily, but the combination of things and the consequences and the, the harm that can be done to self or another person being where we can look at what the line is for addiction. So I, I just thank you for bringing all of this into my awareness and it's something that I can take immediately and start to self reflect on for myself and my own personal behavior. So I, I thank you for that.

B (48:41)

Yeah, I think part of the reason why I came, you know, I decided to do this was, you know, I was thinking about this a lot, you know, like I said for, you know, I can only imagine, you know, because obviously I've experienced it. You get this diagnosis, it is emotional toll. It does like feel like your whole world's upside down. You do feel like, oh my God, I'm never gonna have a life, no one's ever gonna love me. But I feel like, you know, like I said, when you're a sex addict and your sex is the weight for you to numb your pain out or you know, you get those urges to numb your pain out and then you can't because this interferes with that. If you're having an outbreak, if you're in pain, you have blisters, whatever's going on. I realized I'm like, oh well, I'm not the first sex addict with herpes. I certainly won't be the last. But I still like, I don't really find people talking about that who are sex addicts and have herpes too. Because it's something like, how do I navigate this? How do I navigate when my self soothing method or you know, well, obviously I'm trying not to do that so being sober from it. But it's like, what do you do? When my body is in so much emotional pain, it's saying, I need to escape from this pain. Let me get sexually triggered. Let's get those urges to act out because we want to numb ourselves out. And then you realize, well, that's what got me into trouble in the first place. That might be the reason why I have this, for all I know. And it's also like, well, what if there are physical. If you partaking this causes physical harm to me and to other people? It's like, then I'm left kind of like this weird situation of like, well, what do I do? How do I navigate this? What. What does this mean for my life? What does it mean for healthy sexuality? All these different things? And it's like I feel like there's another whole added weight to it of being a sex addict, because it's like, you know, other people can partake in sex in a normal, healthy way. For me, I kind of describing it lately of like, it's like opening the bottle, and I can't put the bottle down. So what do I do when this happens? Because it's like it did. It did trigger addiction withdrawal. And I'm like, this is new. This is scary. This is uncertainty about the future. Who's ever gonna love me? Those thoughts absolutely popped into my head, oh, he's gonna love a sex addict. Who's gonna love a herpes 2 sex act, all these things. And then actually I started thinking about when you said on the phone call of if I ever decide to date and I start meeting someone and you know, this person, if they do have interest in me, they'll have interest in me for me. Not just for the sex addiction, not just because I'm herpes 2 positive. They'll look beyond that. And maybe right now, I don't fully believe that, but I'm having. Starting to have hope that, yeah, maybe this will mean I'll find a better connection than what I have been before. I'll know when I'm ready because I have to come to terms with this, and I'm still struggling with that.

A (51:29)

And it's also, like you said earlier, right, this. This ended up being a superpower, right?

B (51:35)

You.

A (51:35)

You start to believe a thing, and you start to then have the hope, right? And it's just something that as you have more experiences with it, you start to experience more of that thing that you're experiencing. Like, the more we do a thing, the better we get at it. So the More you have self acceptance, the more self accepting you're going to become. So I, I just. Man, I'm excited. I appreciate this interview, this podcast episode. And I want to ask before, because we're just getting close to time, I want to ask if there was one thing that you wanted to leave people with or if there is any, any number of things that you want to leave people with. I invite you to just have the space to share what it is that you want to have. Somebody who might be where you were six months ago, two years ago, even, or even before in recovery. I think about all of your intersections of identity, from being adopted to having to take care of your parents at such a young age, dealing with the father, with depression, dealing with sex addiction, love addiction, and the spending addiction. Whatever it is that you want to share, I want to just leave you the space to go ahead and do so. And then when you feel complete, you let me know and then we'll wrap this up.

B (52:57)

I think I kind of want to let people know that, you know, I think there's people that have definitely gotten herpes too. And they're not, they're not addicts. They're just people struggling emotionally with this and, you know, feeling like, oh my God, this is my whole identity. This has ruined me completely. And, you know, obviously herpes 2 is a little bit different than sex addiction, but I think I kind of speak for any recovering addict of like accepting and knowing that, yeah, this is part of me, but it's not all of me. And I think this is why I'm saying this, you know, for myself. So I hope I believe this myself too, because I'm still trying to believe it. Like, yeah, herpes 2 does suck. It is part of. It is part of me. It's part of something I have to live with, you know, for the rest of my life. Just like addiction. But I learned to live with it, though. It doesn't deny me from having a life. It doesn't deny me from being around friends, family, doing all the things I love. It's an inconvenience, just like addiction is at times and some days gonna be worse than others. I understand that, but I think I want to say, is this like these people? And all of us is like, we're not just herpes too. I don't say, I don't write herpes 2 on any type of government forum. When I'm signing stuff, I write my name down because that's who I am. I'm not just. I don't write my Name as John Sex love, you know, spending social anorexic herpes 2 positive person. I just write my name down. That's it. I'm me. This is part of me, which I would honestly, I wish it wasn't. But I got to live with it. Just like I live with addiction. And I've gotten to that point with my addiction that I'm more than my addiction. I'm not just a sex. I'm not just sex crazed addict, addict. I'm me. And maybe with herpes too, in time. And I think I'm slowly getting there. I'm realizing it's not just me. I'm me. It doesn't define me. I'm more than just the diagnosis. And I think that's how I'm trying to feel.

B (54:57)

Man.

A (54:57)

Thank you. We can talk about this off the recording if you want, but if you want people to be able to contact or connect with you.

A (55:10)

Let me know and we can sort that out. I don't want to put that in here and have people blowing you up. So, yeah, I appreciate you, man. Thank you. This was a great conversation and I think this will be very useful to people.

B (55:26)

I appreciate it and I appreciate having the time to talk about this.

A (55:30)

Yes, sir.

A (55:32)

All right, so that concludes this episode of Something Positive for positive people. Please, like, rate, review, share, subscribe to the podcast and just share this with people. We have the herpes survey still accepting responses@spfpp.com org herpes survey help us get the most accurate information that we can possibly get in regards to herpes and stigma so that we can have more accurate representation of this community so that we can get better treatment, that we can get better testing and we can get better treatment. Testing. What's the other thing? Information in general about it. So.

A (56:15)

Oh, I just hit the stop button up here. I was trying to set myself up to hit stop without that long pause in between me hitting the button and then having to find it and hit actually stop. So that's it. I appreciate you all for listening. And till next time, stay present.

B (56:32)

Still.