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Something Positive for Positive People
SPFPP 411: Access Points for Exploration - with Kiki Maree
01:06:55
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- [00:03]
A
Hello, welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brain. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non profit organization supporting people who are navigating herpes stigma. And a couple quick announcements before we get into today's podcast episode, which has a guest, which has a guest that's willing to put her face out there. I guess it's not like super uncommon that I have a guest that's willing to have their face out there and on camera, but it's, it's not been consistent, let's say that. So if you're someone who too is okay with speaking about your experience with herpes and navigating stigma, I would love to have you be a guest on the podcast. I do not want to interview people anonymously anymore. Like I don't care what your first name is. Like I can call you whatever, but I have no reason to say your name on the podcast episode. To be completely honest, we're two people who are having a conversation together. Neither of us should have any reason to say each other's name name. But yeah, it feels like over the years of evolution of Something positive for positive people, there's no longer a need to like have to create that comfort for people to be willing to just anonymously say whatever it is that they want. Like, I don't really ask for much more than just being able to have a conversation about your experience with herpes the same way that people are offering it to the those of us who need it or needed it or will need it. It's just one way to reciprocate some type of energy into the community, into this space to be able to support people in their own healing. All right, now, couple quick announcements. The Herpes Sigma Expo for the fall is in New York City. It is on August 29th, which is a Saturday. And it will go from 10:00am or well, no, 11:00am, let's call it 11:00am until about 6:00pm it's just a day of support. I look forward to being able to get people to show up, meet each other, mingle, have food together, role play, some rejection handling as well as some fun stuff in regards to speaking about sex, sexual health and pleasure. And then we'll do a little bit of yoga. So if that's something you're Interested in, visit SPFPP.org Expo this is the last one that I am planning to do. Things are going to be looking different as we out 2026 and into 2027, but those are things that you'll hear throughout different variations of intros for the podcast that come to be. All right, so I mentioned we have a guest and I am going to let our guest introduce themselves and then share how we connected and then we're gonna take it old school. We're gonna do the podcast the way that we used to always do it when I had like four, four guests over the course of a week and three interviews in a day. So we, we, we jump starting how things used to be. Go ahead.
- [02:54]
B
Hey, thank you so much for having me, Courtney. I'm absolutely stoked to be here. I love your podcast so much. It's. Yeah, it's such a, such a gift. So, a little bit about me. My name's Kiki Marie. I am an Australian sexologist and I, I mainly work with women and, and vulva havers, but I also work with couples around, sort of more around female sexuality and dynamics and, and patterns that can show up between people. And one of the things that I love to do is to reduce shame and stigma around all topics of sexuality. And so, yeah, this is one that's quite near and dear to my heart, but I like to jump into those spaces whenever and wherever I can. And yeah, that's what led me to you. I saw one of my colleagues, I think she did. It would have been a fair few years ago now. I think she did a couple of episodes or one episode with you talking about, I'd say she'd be talking about nutrition and, and herpes because that's kind of her area of specialization. And so you kind of came up on my radar then. And then it's been a bit, a bit of time since then, but I started getting back into the podcast circuit and I thought I'd reach out and see if I could share some, some useful tips for your community, some insight, my own experience and yeah, continue to help to reduce these spaces of shame and stigma.
- [04:29]
A
Before I forget, I need you to tell people how they can find you so that even after they're listening, maybe they just want to scroll your Instagram or your website or something like that. So can you share that here?
- [04:38]
B
Yeah, so yeah, I'm pretty active on Instagram actually. It's probably the best place to connect with me. I usually get back to people that are in my DMs pretty quickly. So my main Instagram account is at Yonilicious, but I also have a backup because I do get sort of shadow banned or deleted here and there. So I've got Kiki Marie K I K I dot mar as my Backup otherwise. Yeah, my, my website has a bunch of free resources on there and some courses and things, which is johnilicious.com au
- [05:15]
A
do people do that thing where they're like, kiki, do you love me?
- [05:19]
B
Yes.
- [05:23]
A
I thought about it. I didn't want to say anything until like, I had to wait until we talked a few times because I want you to be like, oh, we got one of those people again. I just knew it was a common thing for you. All right, so you mentioned having, you know, found the work and you mentioned having your own personal experience as well. Out of curiosity, like when you say my own personal experience, what do you mean?
- [05:48]
B
Yeah, so when I was around, I guess I was 16 or so, I had my first outbreak on my mouth of herpes. And yeah, I mean I'd been surrounded like people in all of everyone in my family pretty much had cold sores when I was young. So I was very familiar with oral herpes and who knows how long I had had it for. That was just my first experience with it sort of having an outbreak with it myself personally. And it was huge. It was like, like the, I know it's pretty common, like the first outbreak to be pretty big, but my mouth was like a, a golf ball to the point where it felt like my skin was going to split and it, and it was sort of touching up near my nose, it was so swollen and. And my next few outbreaks were pretty huge like that. And yeah, so that's been, I guess my personal experience with, with, yeah, have. Having actually having herpes, but then also having sort of seeing behind the scenes of how emotionally difficult it can be living with herpes and disclosing and, or having the discussion. I learned that from you having the discussion.
- [07:07]
A
I was so ready. I was ready to say something.
- [07:11]
B
I was like, I know I'm going to say disclose because it was, it's what I, you know, what I was taught. So it's what I've used forever. But I learned that from you and I love it so much to the, the discussion piece around it. So, yeah, just, just noticing all of the, the. Yeah. Having like a behind the scenes insight into how tricky it can be and how heavy it can be for people that are dating and, and so it kind of lit a bit of that fire and passion in, in me in the work of helping to reduce shame and stigma and finding ways that I can do it within my community. Yeah, I guess that's my, my personal experience. I, I also have had a couple of lovers where we've had the discussion around STI and aesthetic status. And I did notice that I was much more aware during the sexual encounters and much more. Even though I know lots of people that haven't told me that they've. That they've had herpes or maybe they. They didn't. They didn't know. I was pretty carefree with condoms for a lot of my sexual history. Once I did know that somebody. Somebody's status, that they did have a genital herpes. Genital herpes. I was, yeah. Way more diligent and aware. And it was really interesting to see sort of that side of it as well, when a condom would come off, even though, you know, they weren't having an outbreak, that I would feel a little bit more scared or there was more fear involved. And I sort of noticed my own fear and prejudices coming up in those experiences. So, yeah, there's sort of. I've been in that. On that side of things as well. Personally.
- [08:56]
A
Yeah. When you say carefree about condoms, are you saying not really not using them, or are you saying because I use condoms, I don't have any worries no more.
- [09:06]
B
More on the side of only using them if I was ovulating and then not really worrying about it elsewhere.
- [09:13]
A
Got you. Okay. I was just curious. Thank you. Yeah. And I. Because I was going to take the conversation in two directions, I was like. But if that's not what you meant, then I need to clarify. So your dating experience, Dating relationships. I'm finding that I am hearing from more people who are concerned about their oral herpes, and I just call it oral genital more so than type one. Type two, because so many people get diagnosed by just a visual, and they're like, oh, it's type two because it's genital. And I think that that misinformation is what perpetuates stigma. Because we assume that type 2 is only contracted via genital to genital sexual contact because you can't get herpes type 2 orally. But the reality is more HSV1 cases have been occurring at least since I was beginning in the stages of advocacy in 2017, because people who have HSV1 orally are performing oral sex on people who may not be aware or don't care or think they're not going to get herpes. So my question for you is, what's been your experience with having the discussion as someone who has cold sores performing oral sex on partners or even. Even making out with partners?
- [10:37]
B
I've never had the discussion unless I've had an Outbreak or I feel like I could be. I've never really said to somebody, yeah, I do have oral herpes before kissing, before giving a blow job. It's not really been something that I've ever thought about, which kind of is been a lot of the, I guess, photo for my work. When I do talk about reducing stain shame and stigma of like, you know, how you don't ask somebody about this before you kiss and that sort of like, it's a skin condition and there's not that sort of seriousness around it. Let's like, bring that lightness in. Not necessarily not chatting about it, but. But also using the. Using that energy of like, okay, it's a skin condition, it happens sometimes. And just because you have it doesn't mean you're always infectious, doesn't mean you can always transmit it, doesn't mean that, yeah, we have to treat it as if it's something that is going to destroy your life. You know, I. And so it's kind of been. Well, I can see it's kind of an issue because it therefore can mean that I have. I could transmit it or that there's like, there's a lack of discussion around. Also for me is a little bit of like, fuel to that. That reducing the shame piece and the stigma piece of. Let's kind of take a softer approach as you would with oral herpes.
- [12:11]
A
Yeah. And you mentioned that you got your first symptoms, your first outbreak that you can remember in high school. What was. Excuse me, I came out of nowhere. What was like, it was normalized for you, but did things like progress or change for you? When. I guess when. When you had physical symptoms and you needed to communicate this to partners. I guess I'm curious, like, where was the crossroads between I have oral herpes or cold sores, My family has cold sores, everything's fine. Like, this isn't something that I really have to deal with in terms of stigma to a point where you may have first noticed it or realize that, oh, this is something that affects people sexually, I guess.
- [12:59]
B
Well, I remember, I think because my first outbreak was so huge, there was. Was still like a little bit of an element of shame there. And I also didn't really like when my outbreak happened. Like, I remember I would always be like, I wish it kind of happened on like my lower lip or something because it felt. Because it was like so close to my nose or something. I don't know. I just. I really just disliked the location of the outbreak and how huge it was. I felt, I definitely felt Shame around it. I felt like, you know, it was just. So when I first walked into the pharmacy, I. Oh, one second. My toy. My dog has a noisy toy. I'm just taking it off him. Yeah. When I first walked into the pharmacy with it, I was like, I'm pretty sure this is a cold sore, but it's. I've never seen one look like this before. I was covering my mouth, you know, I was like, I don't want anyone to say. Say this. I didn't really think of a face mask back then. And yeah, it. There was definitely shame there. So even though I'd been, you know, had seen cold sores my whole life and kind of understood that it was something that came and went and that was kind of it. There was that sort of uncomfortability there. And that when it would come, you know, for years after, I'd have maybe one or two a year and there would be huge again, I felt really, like, shy and kind of like, yeah, when my partners would see it, they'd be like, whoa, you know, that's. That's huge. And yeah, to have partners sort of recoil from being sort of anywhere near me and not wanting to, like, lay on the same pillow as me or. Yeah, there was definitely, like a huge change with how I was interacting with the world, I guess, and that changed my perspective a lot. I definitely was happy when the sores, like, got smaller. I still have fear that they're going to get that big again, but, yeah, that felt better and easier to manage. And yeah, I certainly was, like, scared that I could. There was now a fear that I could transmit without knowing it because sometimes it would kind of come out of nowhere. And so I. Yeah, I sometimes, and oftentimes it actually happened not long after a blowjob. I'd feel like a tingle and I'd be like, oh, my God. Oh, no. Like, this isn't good. And then I would talk to the partner about it instead of before, which I know you chatted about on. I've heard you chat about on the podcast before, like having that discussion beforehand versus afterwards. But I think because it's oral herpes and that sort of fear, collective fear around it isn't really there. It hasn't felt so pertinent. But it does. It has since then. Sort of, you know, since those experiences have been like, oh, fuck, that's thing.
- [15:56]
A
Yeah. I'm looking at your face and it looks kind of like you're processing this in real time. Is that.
- [16:02]
B
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I've had Chats with partners here and there before. But for the most part, it's definitely been like an after the fact, because it does. And also that happens maybe once every couple of years. There'll be a tingle and I'll be like, oh, that's right, I have oral herpes. Oh, that's right. I can transmit it without necessarily seeing a sore, which I also didn't learn until much later in life as well. I think I didn't learn that until my probably late 20s. I thought there had to be a saw to. To be able to transmit it. So, yeah, I think that lack of education and so many years of therefore thinking, oh, unless I have a sore, I'm good. Fed into that sort of. Yeah. Lack of conversation around it.
- [16:54]
A
Yeah. I was gonna ask you about. God, I lost it. Not how you have the discussion. Oh, I remember now. It was about the way that you. I'm curious about, like, the perception of you being someone now who you've had your content, you've talked about, you know, yoni health, which. We'll talk more about that specifically to understand it better and, like, what you do and how people can benefit from that. But going into speaking about herpes, it's not like you're saying, oh, yeah, I get cold sores. I only get cold sores. I only get cold sores. Right. But it's. I have herpes. And, you know, here's how it manifests. I think that a lot of people who get cold sores call them cold sores and don't call it oral herpes. Especially when we see people online who maybe have larger followings or have this moment where it's kind of like a place of privilege. They may be in the realm of fitness, they may be in health, they may be in entertainment, and they'll be like, oh, yeah, yeah, I just got a cold sore. It's no big deal, you know, and maybe there's some blissful ignorance around the fact that that's still herpes, but what stands out to me is the way that you talk about it in the sense of like, yeah, I get cold source. This is herpes. Right. I'm curious to know how that feels. For you to speak to it as herpes versus cold sores, especially within your communities and the online presence that you
- [18:32]
B
have, it feels really good. And I think I intentionally try as often as I can to not use the word cold sores because of the. It is a. It is a place of privilege. You know, it's like, I can talk about it in a way that doesn't automatically trigger that fear response in people. And so. And it feels really important I guess again to kind of feed into that. It's a skin condition, it's fucking common. Let's not have this shame that's around it. I like growing up hearing my mum talk about it. I mean, I know she definitely used terminology that was like shameful to do with genital herpes versus oral herpes. And also what was great was that she also educated me that you can transmit it from your mouth to your genitals. So she was always saying to me and my brother, my brother started getting oral herpes way younger than me. But she was always telling us, like, make sure, you know, you're really careful because you can transmit it. So I always knew that it was herpes. I always knew that it was transmissible between oral and genital, the mouth and the genitals. So I. But I still always use the term cold sore because that's just like colloquially what was used until I learned that it could help with stigma around genital herpes. It felt so good to be able to use one word that could help to sort of bring light to the fact that it's something very common and something that everyone has and also potentially a way to sort of educate that it's something that can be transmissible also to the genitals. So yeah, I like, I like using that term.
- [20:21]
A
Thank you. With your family, the people that I come across lately, there are people who are deathly afraid of passing herpes on to their kids. You're someone who had herpes pass on to you as a kid, clearly, and it was in the family and there were no concerns about it. I have, I would like to hear from you, and this isn't necessarily a question, but more so I like to hear about your experience of how it was talked about, how it was perceived in your family. For the parent who's like deathly afraid of touching their kid, because I don't have, I don't have kids, I didn't know any of my relatives that had any cold sores. So the only thing that I can think of to say is like, I think you would fuck your kid up more by not showing them love and affection than by giving them herpes, essentially, you know, and it's a wild thing to say it like that, I get it. But what we're talking about here is oral herpes, a skin to skin contact virus that is clearly just in the family. But that shame is so prevalent that it will keep a Parent from loving on their kid with fear, physical affection, or, you know, kissing them, or even making any type of bodily contact because of their own stigma and shame. And then there's the unwillingness to even talk to anyone about it or let alone their kids to be like, hey, you know, mommy or daddy has this. This is herpes and I don't want you to get it. So when you see this, just know that it doesn't mean I don't love you, but I'm not going to kiss you and be as affectionate. Right. That's what makes the most sense to me. But, but I don't have the experience that you have having it normalized essentially in your household. And what I'm asking of you is to just kind of speak to what that was like.
- [22:16]
B
Yeah, it was. Yeah, it felt like very much just like a part of life. I think my perspective was, if you don't have it, it's strange. And that kind of sort of carried into my sexuality of like assuming that, you know, while it changed when I had a discussion with someone who let me know that they had genital herpes, you know, my internal world changed a little bit. Throughout my entire sexual history, I just kind of assumed that everyone had herpes and. Or they could, not that they did. But whenever I didn't use a condom, I was like, they could very much have herpes. But I'm happy to take the risk right now. I don't care.
- [22:59]
A
And so I think I don't want to forget. I do not want to forget to talk to you about that specifically. Okay, okay, I'll try to risk. All right.
- [23:08]
B
But yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so I feel like it actually was a huge benefit, I think, having those discussions, seeing cold sores. I don't really remember. I don't really remember any conversation around, like, you know, I knew it was sore and you know, I wouldn't want to like touch. Touch it. That would have been communicated to me in some way from a young age before I can remember. But I don't really, really remember anything outside of that. It just was, I guess, just kind of like a non normal thing in my, in my family. I saw my grandmother, I saw my dad, I saw my mom have cold sores and herpes outbreaks on their mouths. So I was just like, okay, that's just like something that adults, I think a part of me was like, oh, adults get that, you know. And then however, I did like, there was like really bad language used around genital. Genital herpes, which was different. It was almost like. Yeah, there was a kind of immoralization of. Of the disease of it being okay. So if it's on your mouth, that's normal, but if it's on the genitals, then it's dirty. Or specifically, I remember my mom using the term germy and that, you know, I mean, I. I don't know how much that fed into, like, the, like, my feelings around it, but I know it wasn't at all, like, language that I would be using. Talking to my kids about feels kind of like telling also of the time and where I'm from and kind of like a. Yeah, there's not like there was a lot of conversation around anything to do with sexuality. And yeah, so I. I would say that for. I mean, from my side being a kid in a family with herpes, I was happy that I had an understanding of it. I definitely wouldn't prefer my parents to not touch me or cuddle me and kiss me. I definitely prefer to contract it than to have that for sure, you know? And I mean, I don't know exactly. You know, I was already sort of intimate with people when I did have my first outbreak, so I can't know for sure, but I would say that I would have contracted it through. Yeah. Like 16 years of being around my family members with. Who have HSV1.
- [25:40]
A
Yeah. And thank you for sharing that because I don't know what it is, but lately I've been having more conversations with people who reach out. And this isn't like in a shamey way at all, but these are people who would be diagnosed with genital herpes who are afraid of passing it on to their kids. Mothers being pregnant, getting pregnant and giving childbirth. I understand the fear there. And we have things that we work around for. If there is an outbreak during labor, then performing a C section. I know people really want that experience of delivering a child vaginally. And if there's hints of an outbreak, then I think they just boost you with antiviral so that it reduces the chance of you having an actual outbreak when delivering the baby. But what is more common lately is that there are parents of people. These parents are living with herpes and genital herpes specifically and like afraid of touching their kids because they think that they're going to give it to them. And. Right. There's a fear that is not rational, but it's. It's very much hyper. It's exaggerated. That's the word I was looking for. It's exaggerated in the media, by media, but because it's like, oh, you know, you don't want to. You don't want to do this. You don't want to give your kid, you don't want to give herpes to anybody. And it's assumed that if you just touch someone that they're going to get it, but the reality is that that isn't the case. And so I'm hoping to, you know, be able through, to speak to the experience of navigating this in a way that's like, hey, one, just because you have it doesn't mean. Mean that whoever you come into contact with is going to get it. Just because you share intimate moment with someone, if you do have sex, if you don't have sex, if your kid touches your pocket, your pants pocket in your waistline, that doesn't mean that they're going to get it. And the internal fear that I hear in people's voices when they're asking these questions, and, you know, I have to tell them, I was like, hey, you know how herpes transmits, right? I don't think you need to worry about giving your kid herpes unless we need to have a different conversation, right? But they get it, and it's just something there that they're just frightened of. And so I hope that you just sharing the experience that you just did in regards to, like, what your upbringing was like and the normalization of it and, you know, it not really being an issue. I hope that this helps them get to a place where they're like, you know what? I should be able to talk to my kids about this. It's a real thing that they, too, may come across in adulthood or middle school whenever it is that they come into contact with it. Not to say that it is exclusively something that requires sexual activity, but it's sensual contact. And there are people who feel like they can't tell their parents, that feel like they can't tell their families or their friends. And these are people who really, really struggle, that are even beyond just me being there for support. Support is something that is activating to them. So thank you.
- [28:49]
B
My pleasure. And it's interesting. I haven't really even thought about that. You know, I have. I have friends that have herpes and have had kids and have birthed vaginally as well. And I haven't seen that in the spaces that I've been in. So I really appreciate that insight into what, what other experiences people are having. And I, I do feel like, you know, a lot of it is to do with just shame that exists around sexuality in general. You know, I think the moralization that we have around bodies that we have around sex, you know, someone's own inner experience with, and relationship to their own body, to their experience, to their diagnosis, I think that can also be a place of healing and understanding and deepening the understanding and yeah, even getting better education in the condition itself and, and knowing just how common it is and trying to protect someone from something that is so, so common is in, in and of itself kind of like a, yeah. Kind of like an impossible task or like maybe even a fruitless one if they come across it in their life anyways. And also I think, you know, finding spaces like this, you know, podcasts like this or Facebook groups that have people in a similar experience can be so helpful in reducing that shame and, and understanding that, yeah, they're not alone, that it's a very common experience and, and getting that permission piece. Yeah. From hearing voices like mine and like yours and other people with the same experience. Permission to come to a better place with, with, with whatever's happening for them.
- [30:41]
A
Okay, I wrote it down so I didn't forget. So I want to know about this. Like, it seems like the, the free willingness to forego condom use in sexual experiences. Right. So you know that you have herpes. And my question is, like, what goes into the thought process of who you do and don't wear condoms with besides, are you ovulating?
- [31:08]
B
I would say one of my kinks is taboo. Ness. And so a lot of the times I'll go into, you know, and I mean, I've been in.
- [31:18]
A
All right, hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. All right, so, so, you know, I do not edit these. I have no desire to edit these. We talked a little bit before about where not to take this conversation. All right. In the event that it's starting to get there, remember, just, just do like this. All right? If you feel like, if you feel like you do want to introduce it or talk about it, we can. But I, I, I can manipulate or manipulate. I can maneuver around that topic if we need to. All right. Just because we're the doors open and now you're responsible for, for like cracking it, closing it a little bit. All right, Okay.
- [31:54]
B
I mean, I've got a lot of taboo kinks and okay, one, one of them, you know, one of just for an example, is like consensual non consent or like. Yeah. Like just finding the edges of things. And so for example, I might be going to a sexual experience thinking I'm going to use A condom. And then because I put that rule to myself, suddenly it's a fun edge that I can play with and arousal kicks in and I'm like, oh my goodness, like, what if I don't it like, let's just not use a condom. And then I don't use a condom. And then I'm like, cool, now I have to go get tested again. Oh my goodness, I'm so annoyed at myself.
- [32:37]
A
Wait, wait. All right, we gotta, all right, we gotta break this up into pieces. So first off, I. I'm curious, how do you. How does this get negotiated? So, and I'll give you the background on why I'm asking this. So I have been historically very involved in sex education sex positive spaces. And that is a completely different world than the vanilla world that exists, you know, outside of those pockets where you are most likely having a conversation with someone about what you're. Your likes are, what your dislikes are, what brings you pleasure, how to be talked to, how to be touched. Right. And coming out of that world and like being in the vanilla world, being in the sex positive world and then being back in the vanilla world with kind of this blended experience of sometimes this, sometimes that. What I'm finding is that more often than not, these conversations are very not normal. And I know talk to people about like how to best take care of themselves in navigating these. So is it that you are more so going with the flow of the partner who you know is like, it? I don't want to wear condoms anyway because I know, like, if you date men, like I know many of us, my mantra is I love condoms. I have to tell myself this. I have to convince myself this when I, if I don't like, is going on a fucking streak. So I, everybody that I, I have been, am sexually active with, I wear condoms with. Right. So for me, if I tell myself I'm wearing a condom, I cannot not wear a condom. Or it's a slippery slope. So for you, what I'm hearing is that this is fun for you to have a rule and then break it. And it sounds like you might be more of like that a bratty M effort.
- [34:30]
B
Yeah, definitely just daytoday, like overall brat for sure. I don't, I don't necessarily see yourself. Yeah, every. Any kind of rule for sure.
- [34:44]
A
Wait, wait, so you're like, yeah, I'm gonna give myself this rule just so I can like slowly break it and then break it?
- [34:51]
B
No, it's not intentional. That's the thing. I'm intentionally thinking I'M not going to. I'm going to use a condom, like, definitely tonight. I don't want to go for another test. You know, for example, when I was living in Bali, I'm like, I don't know if I trust the test. I don't want to deal with that. I don't want to do it again. And so I'll be like, I'm definitely going to wear a condom. And then in the heat of the moment, I'm like, well, it. And, you know, I mean, I'm talking about, I've had sex with a lot of people, and there have been many different situations. You know, there have been situations where I've, like, been, okay, I'm not going to wear it. I am going to wear a condom. And I have. It's not every single time, but a lot of the times.
- [35:30]
A
Give me that right there. So you go from doing the thing that clearly feels better, right? And you're having to essentially rein it back a little bit for yourself because it's easy to hit the gas, it's harder to pump the brakes, so it's easier to go in with, oh, you know, I'm not going to wear condom. This feels so good. It Take the condom off. But what you're saying is you might go in like, yeah, I'm not going to wear a condom. But then there's a turning point where you make the decision to wear a condom. What influences that decision at the turning point?
- [36:03]
B
So, I mean, when. When I don't use a condom, that there's never a condom involved. It's more like, oh, let's like, just put it near the entrance and then. And then the skin contact. And I'm like, okay, too late. And. But then. Then if I do use a condom, usually that it would be something along the line lines of, I've just recently had a test and I can't be to go and do it again so soon. Or. Or the partner I'm with is like, I. I actually really want to use a condom. Or. Or a partner has. We've had a discussion. They. They do have herpes or another sti. Or they're not sure. And I'm like, if I get in my head about it, I'm like, you know what? Actually, maybe not, you know, so, like, I feel like there are a few different. Like, it could also be depending on just, like, how horny I am in that moment. If I'm not super horny when there's a. Like, the condoms are out, I'll be like, yeah, let's go for it. But if I'm like very horny, maybe I'm a little like altered state of consciousness. Consciousness from horniness, then maybe my decision making isn't as grounded as it would be when I'm not as horrible phony.
- [37:16]
A
All right, so just wanted to clarify that first off, people can have sex if they have herpes without condoms and with condoms and still not pass it on. And the thing that you're speaking to that I wanted to highlight here is safe sex is communicative sex. So you're communicating not just with the other person, but also with yourself. Like, hey, here's what I'm going to do. Here's where I'm comfortable with the changes. And it sounds like you're self accountable, you know, fuck, all right, I had sex with this person without a condom and I probably shouldn't have done that. Let me go get tested. And it sounds like you're okay with the possible outcomes of doing that and what that means.
- [37:59]
B
Yeah, not afterwards.
- [38:01]
A
You said what?
- [38:02]
B
Not afterwards. Afterwards I'm like, oh, for sake, why didn't I just use a condom? You know, like, then I'm like constantly checking, like my smell, like, oh, has it changed? Like looking at my, my cervical fluid, is it. Are there changes? You know, like, now I'm worried. And so afterwards, usually the conversation is, let's not do that again. Let's just either both get tested first or like use a condom. So, yeah, but. And the other thing is, I guess I thought of it a couple of times now. So is that I, from as far as I know, haven't transmitted HSV1 ever. And I've kissed people and I've given blow jobs many times very close to an outbreak or tingles. And so, yeah, like sort of to your point that you can still still have contact and not transmit the disease.
- [39:04]
A
And that's something else to understand too, for people, I think, as it relates to oral sex, to genital sex, friction. Friction is so important, right? So I always tell people, hey, if you're gonna have sex, like, lubricant is important, right? Because we're not creating additional friction, creating tears in the skin where the viruses are more, more actively capable of transmitting. And I think that with oral sex there's a lot more. There's a lot less friction depending on, I mean, depending on what people into. Like, I know people who like a good dry rub. I know people who, you know, do various things, but condoms, lubrication. And then when we're talking about oral sex, like, there's typically more saliva involved. And people think that they transmit herpes through saliva. And you know how you've done performed a lot of oral sex. I, too have, and to my knowledge, have not passed it on to a partner who's been like, hey, Courtney, we hooked up last, and you're the last person I was with. I'm having these symptoms, right? So these are experiences that most people who are living with herpes who have an active and healthy sex life have no reason to go out into the real world world or the public and be like, hey, guys, I'm having great sex with herpes, and I'm not transmitting it to people because they don't have a reason to. Right? So this having become just sort of like my thing now. This is where I'm, you know, putting it out there for people who like you. I don't think you have a reason to ever just be open about and tell the world about your experiences with herpes. Right. Other than feeling drawn here and us being able to connect and being able to offer what you have to the community and be able to have this conversation. So, again, like, I can't thank you enough for being here and being willing to have this in depth of a conversation about your experiences. There are two things that I want to touch on. One of the things that you said, well, you were getting into the kink stuff. So what's important here for me in talking about this and just to, like, declare my intention, is that we're able to see more of an expansive way of engaging in sex and having sex in ways that maybe aren't exclusively tied to intercourse. Because I think that people believe when they get their diagnosis that their sex life is over, when the reality is it can be over if that's what you choose for it to be. But it's always going to look different. So it'll look like more communicative, or it'll look like in certain seasons or when certain things are happening, right? Like, maybe there are alternative options to be proposed. So as we're navigating this conversation again, remember to hit the. If we start to get into that section of things and you don't want to talk about it, or if you're flowing and you're fluid, I might look at you like this. My eyes get big, and you'd be like, no, fuck it, I'm doing this. And then we can talk about it. All right? But I want to make sure to cover that. And then I want to talk about what you said about kind of like, Self exams, checking your fluids and odor and just making sure that things are cool. And that'll transition us into talking about the work that you do. And then we'll close out.
- [42:16]
B
All right, Sounds good.
- [42:18]
A
Perfect. All right. Last you left off, that was cnc.
- [42:22]
B
Yeah. So I would say that, I mean, some of the most wonderful experiences, experiences that I've had and that I've also seen in my work is when people are able to find the struggles that they have in their sexuality as a. As an access point, deep into a deep understanding of their body, their desires, their. Their sexuality, their relationship to others. And, you know, for example, if somebody does have a diagnosis of an SCI and std, that is an opportunity for more learning, for more growth, for more understanding, for. You know, I learned so much through. I mean, I. I studied a lot about STIs in STDs at university, but it wasn't until I experienced having chlamydia that I really understood it on a different level. And I. I can interact with my body on a different level. And the same is true for people who are experiencing erectile disappointment. That can be an entry point into understanding pleasure and sex and intimacy beyond penetrative sex. And the same can be said for people who experience. Yeah, like, so for myself, in my history, there is a. I had a couple of experience of violations, boundary violations. And so this for me has been an access point into exploring my intimacy and connection with others, of. Of a violation that's in control with. With myself. And that's not to say CNC is always something to do with a trauma or something big that happens in our intimacy, but all of these little, I guess, hurdles or struggles or things that come up that doesn't just make sex easy or changes the way that we view sex and intimacy can be such an access point into a deepening, like I was saying, like a deepening of an understanding of what it is that we desire or how we can show up in our sexuality differently. So a lot of my CNC stuff is more fantasy based and it's more relational as well. So. Yeah. So. And. And it's layered. So to kind of, I guess unpack it a little bit and, and go into it.
- [45:01]
A
I was gonna say it sounds like you're talking around, talking about it, like, just go.
- [45:07]
B
Yeah. I kind of wanted to give, I guess, some like, different perspectives and context. But. But so from my experience, I had. Yeah. A boundary cross when I was in a relationship. And that was at the very early stages of my sexual journey. I. Before that Just having sex was really exciting for me. Like the idea of sex, touch and seeing somebody naked, I was so excited by that. It was very new and exciting and novel. And then after this boundary violation happened, I feel there was like an entanglement of my arousal with. Yeah. With a trespassing of my boundaries. And so then I started getting really excited by the idea of either me having sex with somebody else when it's not allowed
- [46:05]
A
and.
- [46:06]
B
Or my partner having sex with somebody else when it's not allowed. Like. Yeah. Sort of like in the form of cheating or if it was something a little bit more taboo. That really excited me. And so, yeah, it's not exactly. Doesn't fit neatly into the category of consensual consent, but it does feel like it's associated with it. And so, yeah, I guess that's also why I'm sort of like stepping around because I'm trying to find a way to communicate it in a. In a way that fits into that box of cnc. But yeah, so that, I guess that's one example of. Of the more like taboo aspects of the things that light me up and get me excited. And, and yeah, it's one. It's one. It came from a struggle in, in sexuality and sort of to tie it in, I guess, to this conversation. I know that for some people that have had a diagnosis, it's been really hard for them, but then it's been one of the best things that has happened to them because it's meant that they've had better communication. They've been able to meet partners that are able to have those kinds of conversations. They've known their body, they've been able. And you know, even also in the king space as well, some really fun play around, like scenes where there like a medical scene where somebody is a nurse and they're wearing gloves and, you know, there's still intimacy that's happening and it's like a role play scenario that's really hot and sexy and fun and. Yeah, so I guess, yeah, I'm trying to find ways to tie into. Into this topic to make it relevant.
- [47:52]
A
Well, you did already. You did already. And then when you kept talking, I didn't want to cut you off. But what I heard is like that that early experience was an access point into like how you mentioned there was a podcast I did years ago with someone. I think it was Veronica Yan's Y A H N S where we talked about something that, like the thing that kind of traumatized us being activating and possibly turning us on because excitement and fear feel like the same thing. We view positive emotions with excitement, but fear is viewed as with negative emotions. But we're still having a chemical response in the body. And now it's a matter of, like, what narrative we choose to give it. Is this sensation in the body fear, or is it excitement? And whenever that feeling comes up, we got to do something with it. We're going to do nothing about it. Fear, or we're going to fight flight, Freeze, bond, whatever, or we're going to move forward and we're going to respond. So I like to call it the forward response, where you recognize you're activated in some kind of way, and then you take actions with that excess energy that has now been activated within you. It's kind of like powering up or going Super Saiyan or transforming or supersonic, depending on what era of time people are from. But that. That. That's very true. And like, speaking for myself, like, my earliest sexual experiences had to be, like, sneaky. Like, I had to very much. Like, it had to be very low key undercover, like, might get caught. And I know that that's something that has tied to things, like, we had short time limits, right? Like, where it's like, hey, this. How much time we got? All right, bet. Challenge accepted. I'm gonna set this. I'm set this timer, right? So, yeah, there's. These are things that. Let's tie it to the nervous system real quick. So when we're in survival mode and operating from that place for so long, we don't have time or space for our nervous system to recognize what's fun for us and what's play for us. And for someone who is operating after a diagnosis, I think that it can put us and lock us into this kind of a fear state of survival. Survival to where it's like, oh my God, I'll never be able to. And we think about all of the things that we wish we would have done that we now can't. Or we don't think about that at all because now we're blocking things out because we don't want to have to think about them. And we don't want to experience or feel the sadness or the rage or the full spectrum of emotions that are. That grief. But going back to what you said about, like, this as an access point. Well, you didn't say that herpes was an access point. You mentioned that the trespassing of your boundaries, which I love, the way that you put that, that became an access point into your sexuality. And Even this as a sexual trauma, right? A herpes diagnosis for many of us is a sexual trauma as it does shift and change our sexual identity. But this is an access point. It's an access point of discovery, of reconnection or connection for the first time, despite how, you know, traumatizing or triggering it may have been, or activating it might have been. If we're willing to go there, if we're willing to extract the usefulness of what it now means to live with herpes, like, we can come out on the other side of this. But that can only happen if we are willing to move forward. And a lot of us just kind of freeze. A lot of us want to fight it, a lot of us want to run away from it. But the thing is, having herpes, like, we got it, you can't run away from this because it's there. You can't fight it because it's too small. So now we're left with we can freeze or we can move forward. And like, that's my mission, to teach people. So it makes me excited. Like, I light up when people come here and they talk about how active and happy and fulfilling their sex lives are. Because that's what people feel like they've lost. They feel like they've lost their ability to be sexual. They feel like they've lost their sex lives entirely. But the reality is that's not the case. It doesn't have to be the case unless we choose that for ourselves. And yeah, we got to be willing to possibly deal with. I don't even want to call it rejection anymore, but like a declining of the offer to move forward sexually with somebody. You make an offer and they say yes or no and they accept it or they decline it. And that feels a lot more realistic than being rejected because like, in all actuality, we don't even know if that's the only thing that they were rejecting or saying no for. So that's a whole nother conversation.
- [52:37]
B
But I really love that.
- [52:39]
A
Go ahead.
- [52:40]
B
I love that like the, the declining of the offer and just sort of as you're speaking, then you're. I. I remembered that I had BV for I would say 12 months. And I can imagine that there's a similarity there of the like self monitoring and hyper vigilance and like, I was always like checking for ascent and really worried that my partner wasn't wanting to go down on me and just being like, oh my God. Just like there was so much shame around. The smell. Yeah, mainly the smell. I didn't really have so many other symptoms. Like, I wasn't itchy and there was a discoloration, I think, of my cervical fluid, but not hugely, not noticeably.
- [53:29]
A
While you're there, while you're here, can you. Yeah. Speak about that, like, and then transition into the work you do because you were mentioning the fluid and the checking. So, yeah, please go on.
- [53:43]
B
Yeah, so with bacterial vaginosis, it's something I think, also another access point into our body, getting us to understand and check our cervical fluid and that being a way to be intimately connected with our body. And I think it's also a really good discussion. Discussion to have, you know, when, you know, when we're speaking about discussions around STIs and STDs. Bacterial vaginosis can be one that's kind of left out. And it is one of the ones that does carry. Also carry a lot of shame for women involved with habas because of how we're conditioned in our society to feel shame around our genitalia in general. Like, there are so many comments from such a young age around vulvas and vaginas. And so, yeah, it's such a. Yeah, it's such a deeply personal and oftentimes really hurtful experience to allow somebody into your space and then only to sort of then have that fear there and that monitoring that's happening. And so I know for myself, yeah, it took me a very long time to treat it. It was really difficult to treat. And however, I guess what was kind of getting me excited to share that was, yes, I mean, I had maybe two partners during that time until I met my. My husband now. And during that time, you know, neither of the partners really cared. Like, they're like, oh, I would. I would show them. When it would smell different, I'd be like, smell it now. Like, it smells different. They'd be like, oh, wow. Yeah, it does. And. But that. That shame was always there. I guess I was always sort of seeking reassurance and trying to make sure, like, I had, you know, had a shower before. And yeah, it was like, it was a lot in my. And it definitely did impact my sexuality. And then I met my husband, who really loves stinky things and was like, having, for some reason, like, I think I got thrush at the same time as bv. And so there was a lot of, like, fluids happening and I was dancing a lot. And so I was wearing, like, tight clothes and sweating. And anyway, it got out of control. It was the worst that it had been when I met my. My current partner. And this was around seven years ago now. And this. We were in a. Like, a hammock tent, and the smell was so, so strong. The whole hammock tent was just, like, filled with it. And my partner was like, oh, yes, it smells so good. Yes. And, like, getting off on it, so. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, who gives a? I then was able to treat it, and it went away. And I was like, okay, actually, I'm happy about that. But the. All of the shame and the monitoring, it was just, like, out the window with the. With a partner that was, like, embracing and not giving a. And it was a very. Like, once. Not once. I'm gonna say once in a life. It was a pivotal moment for me of, like, oh, this is, like, what it feels like to have sex with someone that's, like, fully embracing all of you, regardless of what's going on. And I can imagine that that would be a really nice experience to have if you. If you do have genital herpes as well. Of, like, being able to fully let go and be like, it. Who cares? Like, we're all in this and we're embraced. Exactly. For who and how we are. Yeah. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, man.
- [57:17]
A
That's. Damn. The first thing that I was gonna say is, like, I bet he was very disappointed when the smell went away. If he just, like, looked at you different, it's like, oh, hey, you, You. Is it. Is it bad? No. Oh, start doing on his own. Like, how can I. How do you give someone dv, like, looking that up online? I could just imagine. So I thought about. More funny than anything else. That was. That was my experience. But, no, I think that that is a very beautiful experience for y', all, because, again, like, it's communicative.
- [57:49]
B
Right.
- [57:50]
A
And he learned something about himself, and you learned something about him and yourself. Right. Like, the. When people are with each other, like, I imagine that there's this desire to want to explore and expand and deepen the connection with whoever it is that you are so intimately tied to and connected to by exploring the things that they like. Right. So you might not be into that thing, but it's like, you know what? The fact that you like this. I'm actually kind of aroused by this, and I want to. I want to. Here, let me give you that. Yeah, babe. I just. I just ran six miles and lifted weights and dance. Oh, I can't wait for you to get home. Yeah. Just. Just. And, you know, people. People be saying things, and I have a lot of conversations with different people who do different things and talk about things. So, like, I. I was surprised because I hadn't heard of this one specifically, but I know of. There's a phrase, bug chasers. Like, there's people who, you know, want to have sex with people who have stis. Right. And that's different than what you were describing for you and your husband. But, yeah, like, I kick shame. People do what they like, and as long as everybody involved is okay with it and you're safe and you're not harming anybody and it's legal or whatever, like, that's between y'.
- [59:16]
B
All.
- [59:17]
A
And it's kind of similar as we think about her herpes, because there are people who are deathly afraid of passing this on. There are people who think that it's their sole mission in life and responsibility never to pass this on to somebody. But the reality is I've been way better equipped to handle this compared to the person who might have had it, had sex with me, knowing that they have it, who probably is like, oh, I had sex with that guy and I didn't tell him I have herpes. Right. Whoever that person is, maybe thinks to themselves or thought to themselves, like, I could never tell anyone about this. I don't ever want to put anyone through that. And then they had, like, a moment of weakness, maybe, like a drunk night or something, or where they just were like, you know what? Fuck it. Someone did this to me. Like, it's a number of things that people can think, but I'm not handling it the way that someone thinks that they would have handled it or that they handled it themselves. So give people the choice. Let people love you. Let people have, you know, if you want to explore relationship, like, let people do that and let yourself do that. Give yourself permission for that. And that was one of the things that you said. You mentioned permission earlier. I forget the context, but I thought that that was beautifully said at the moment.
- [60:35]
B
I think it was sort of. Yeah. Finding people that are in the same situation as you, like, you are sharing your. You're a permission giver to anyone listening to this podcast. You know, it's like, oh, my God, this person can have sex with this diagnosis. This person can talk about it openly. This person can love themselves. Like, it's such a. It's such a gift. It really is.
- [60:57]
A
That is what you were saying. Thank you. I'm so happy you remember. All right. So, Kiki, do you love me? Are you riding? No. We are close to time, and I know you gotta get out of here soon as well. We already did the how can people connect with you? But I just want to leave you with like, is there anything that you've wanted to cover in this space that you haven't had the opportunity to cover?
- [61:23]
B
No, not really. I mean, I think the. I did, I think before hopping onto the podcast, I was like, I want to let everyone know that I do have a free resource that is all about body image neutrality. So it's more kind of geared towards people who are feeling a lot of like dysmorphia around their body. But I think it could be really useful for anyone that is self surveying a lot insects. And so I've got like a bunch of tools in there for people to. And we could share some here now as well for people to implement when having sex if they find themselves like so in their head worrying about. Yeah, transmitting or you know, what the other person's thinking and sort of watching for every little micro movement and facial expression. Like I know I was when I had BV with other lovers. Yeah, some like really grounded ways to come back to the body. Because when we're self surveying, we only have. We have finite attentional resources. Resources. So if we're too busy thinking about all of these other things and not feeling our pleasure and being in our body and connected to our breath and connected to the present moment, then we miss our arousal cues and then arousal becomes more difficult and then, yeah, things like having erectile disappointment can occur and it can be hard for women involved with habits to have engorgement and all of those things that are needed for more delicious and successful sex. So yeah, I wanted to have that as a little free resource for anyone that's. That's feeling that that could help them if they feel like the diagnosis is impacting their ability to drop into the moment in sex. Yeah. And then I do also actually, I don't know if this is relevant, but I have a Yoni Love program for anyone that's feeling because yeah, a lot of my work is centered around working with. With the pelvis and working with women involved havers with connecting to their pelvis, understanding their anatomy, understanding their arousal anatomy and yeah, what like keeping connected to their pelvic diaphragm, their pelvic floor, their pelvic health. Because this is something that is. Can become like a pretty big issue for a lot of people because of like clenching and holding and tolerating pain and sexual and or just being bored insects or like activating the pelvis. A lot of activating Activating the pelvic floor in yoga and in Pilates, and, you know, we hear a lot of that. So, yeah, there can be a lot of dysfunction in the pelvic diaphragm. So, yeah, have a. A Yoni Love Core program. A free one that's, like, connecting into it or. And also, like, self massaging and just. Yeah. Understanding our body better. So that's also what I do. And something that I would love to share with people who are feeling disconnected through their diagnosis to their genitals and to their anatomy. That one is definitely more vulva focused. But, yeah, I have those on offer if anyone's feeling that there could be of support.
- [64:34]
A
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing and thank you for offering these resources and then let people know how they can connect with you one more time.
- [64:42]
B
Yeah, best way is through Instagram, at Yonilicious or at Kiki Marie.
- [64:48]
A
All right, then. Is there anything else that you want to say or leave us with or tie the episode with the bow together?
- [64:57]
B
Tie with a bow. I think just. Yeah. If, you know, my main intention in coming on here was to help reduce stigma and shame, and if that is something that you're experiencing, that, yeah, you find. Find compassion for yourself. And I think that's a really beautiful antidote for shame and to keep showing up for yourself and to know that you're worthy of love and pleasure and connection and intimacy and that your diagnosis doesn't define who you are. It's a condition, a skin condition that you have. And that's it.
- [65:36]
A
Thank you so much. All right, y'. All, that concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please, like, rate, review, share, subscribe to this podcast and also reach out to me and let me know you want to be a guest. Like, I need more people. It would be nice to, you know, hear different experiences outside of my own, because that's really all that's been happening these last several episodes with you, exception of, like, a handful. But, yeah, if you're somebody who feels like you're ready to share your experience and you want to be of service and help other people, that's the number one thing that I need. 2027 is going to be amazing because I'm speaking this into existence now. We are having a herpes stigma conference. This will be a hybrid thing. It'll be in person in New York City. Somewhere in New York City. I just got to find a venue, and I'm looking at the availability, but the date will be at the end of August of 2020. 7. So go ahead, start saving y' all money now, because these are going to be ticket purchase things. And, yeah, that's going to be a big thing. And that's, like, the reason that I'm not going to be doing any more of the expos or those kinds of events, because I want to prioritize preparing, preparing for that. All right, till next time, stay present.