Unknown (4:28)

You don't know anybody until you talk.

Tiffany Reese (4:38)

To.

Sarah (4:53)

Hi, my name is Sarah. Me and my husband, we met in February of 2018. We got engaged in March, the next month, and we got married in May. So it was a whirlwind courtship, engagement, marriage, the whole thing. It was wonderful. Shortly thereafter, by August, I found out I was pregnant with Tough, my son. I was pregnant with him at the rodeo in Las Vegas. And there's a Tough Hedemann. He's an old bull rider. And then there's also a Tough Cooper. He is a roper. We talked to his mom and I said, my husband wants to name our kid Tough. She said, well, just know that that's what you're gonna get if you do it. And I said, okay, well, I'm not too scared of that. We need a tough boy from Texas. He was tough from when he was in my belly. It wasn't because of what happened, although.

Tiffany Reese (5:41)

It proved to be so poetic.

Sarah (5:44)

Yes, I was 31 years old. I had waited a long time to finally have my babies. I had been going to a regular obgyn. Everything was going well. But I had started to feel not a real personal connection. I felt like a number next pregnant person in the door, out the door, go through the motions. And maybe I didn't need a lot of attention. There was nothing dramatic about my pregnancy. I never even got morning sickness. One of the last times I saw my ob, I walked by her in the doctor's office. She just looked at me like she literally had no idea who I was. And I had been seeing her for 20 plus weeks. And I said, okay, I need to find something else. Looking up midwives, I was directed to Ena Mae Gaskin's Guide to Childbirth. The premise is basically that your body is made to birth. I Was thinking, well, I can do this. I don't have any problems. I'm healthy. Beginning of 2019, I googled birth centers in Dallas. I called two birthing centers around to schedule a tour and Origins was the first one to call me back. I liked what I saw on the website. It seemed like, oh, they have got a lot of experience.

Unknown (7:02)

And at this time, Amy Tate, Gina Thompson and Kaitlin Wages owned the birth center together.

Sarah (7:10)

Yes, the three of them owned it. I was only ever associated or had any really contact with Amy. The other two must have been owners. But in the background we toured it. Me and my husband went. It's this old Victorian looking house in downtown Dallas. It's got a beautiful park next door. The key factor though, for me and my husband when we went is there's Baylor, Dallas. They showed us around. They also showed us this beautiful mirrored cabinet that had all of their safety equipment. They opened it up, they said, here's all of our safety stuff in case we have any type of emergency. If you're not going to give birth at home, this is where you want to give birth. It is quaint, it's cozy, all the things. But then look right in the backyard, there's Baylor. I told my husband, I really think I can do this. I'm made to do this. I'm all fired up and if anything goes wrong during labor, I can be transferred to the hospital. He was like, I'm here to support you. If I were the one giving birth, I wouldn't do it. But not in a worrisome way because I think he felt the same security. If things aren't going well or something happens, the hospital's right there. I've got like three best friends. I told them, they were like, are you sure this is a good idea? They were the only ones who were really openly apprehensive about this. My mom was like, well, this is different, but if this is what you want to do, okay. I don't think she really understood it, but she was in the end, I think, supportive. When I transferred to the midwife, I was around 34 weeks, so I was very far along. Then I started looking into a doula. There's a doula place, North Dallas. Doula Associates, ndda. They're the well known one in Dallas. Found a doula. I love her to this day. I know she's been a doula a bunch of times. And I was like, she could really keep me grounded. So I've got my husband, my doula, my midwives, Amy and Megan. Were my two primary midwives. We were already at weekly appointments because I was 34 weeks along. I was thinking, okay, this is the best of both worlds. Since I am low risk. They would test my urine every visit, Blood pressure check the baby with the Doppler thing. And they would call it baby mapping. They would just feel to see what position the baby was in.

Tiffany Reese (9:40)

So then you're 39 and a half weeks when you go into labor.

Sarah (9:45)

Yep. On April 21st, I started having contractions in the morning. I texted my doula, had my little contraction timer. It was Easter Sunday. Of course, then I just feel bad for going into labor on Easter. I have to legit be going into labor right now, don't I? So I thought, well, maybe it's not it. In the morning, my contractions were two minutes apart. I said at 10:15, like, things are getting a lot more intense around here. They're coming very, very frequent every two minutes. My doula says, okay, you should call the midwife. The midwife, she says, come in. So I got there, they all showed up. Amy, Megan, There was a midwife in training. And then my doula and me and my husband. So it was the four of them and then us. When I was texting my doula, all that, it was about 10:30, and my water broke at 1:30. It was going pretty quick. I felt it, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Wow, this is really happening. They looked at the little diaper thing I was wearing, for lack of a better word. They could see the meconium staining. And she was like, there's a little bit of meconium, but it's not worrisome. We're just gonna have to do a little extra monitoring, which means we're gonna take your temperature, and then we're gonna have to check his heart rate. And as long as his heart rate is steady and you don't have a temperature, then everything's fine. With the meconium, you're not at risk. I wish I would have done a Google search. Cause once your water breaks, you're at risk for any type of infection. And that's why they were worried about checking for my temperature. This is 1:30 in the afternoon on April 21st. I labored all day, all night. I remember I got a little bit of sleep in between random contractions. She told me, if they're coming any more than every five minutes, they're not dilating you at all. It's really just having contractions for the sake of having them. So that was pretty Annoying because mine were all very intense. She was like, I can't for the life of me figure out why you're not progressing. Let me check you and see where you're at. And so she went in there and felt. She said it was a band of scar tissue. That's what it felt like. Previously, I had had an abnormal pap and they had done one of those LEEP procedures. So she manually broke that scar tissue. I'm not on any type of pain help at all.

Tiffany Reese (12:16)

Because she felt like it was blocking.

Sarah (12:18)

Yeah, like it was stopping my cervix from dilating further. I was just in between contractions, so I was already blind with pain. I don't even know what time this whole scar tissue thing happened. It could have been that night, could have been the next morning.

Tiffany Reese (12:31)

Was there any discussion at this point about going to the hospital?

Sarah (12:36)

No, I think it was just once we get that scar tissue broken, then you'll be able to dilate and then you'll have your baby. So I'm thinking, let's freaking do it. I can't explain to you how exhausted I was physically. When you're in labor, it's running 18 marathons on your body. But I was actively also, like physically working out. I am doing these stairs up and down. I am doing squats. And when it got to actual birthing time, I just didn't have any more left in me. I was gassed. Having been in labor since 10:30 in the morning, My husband, he had a bad feeling. When I look at these pictures, I can see the fear on my husband's face. We just kept being like, are you sure everything's okay? His heart rate's okay and you don't have a temperature. Everything's fine. And then it got to a point where I was like, you're ready to push. And I remember I kind of got like a boost of adrenaline, like I could do this. My adrenaline wore off pretty fast. Cause I was pushing. I believe four plus hours is what someone had told me.

Unknown (13:42)

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Sarah (14:12)

In the.

Unknown (14:13)

Early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan.

Sarah (14:21)

This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.

Unknown (14:24)

We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect he has been identified.

Sarah (14:31)

As Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of.

Unknown (14:33)

The most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

Unknown (14:37)

I was targeted, premeditated and meant to sow terror.

Unknown (14:40)

I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi. Produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.

Sarah (14:52)

He's awoken the people to a true issue. Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system.

Unknown (15:03)

Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery. You can join Wondery on the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple podcasts.

Sarah (15:15)

I was pushing four plus hours. He sat with the crown of his head out for a long time. So he was in the birth canal for hours. I remember at some point in time somebody said there was meconium dripping out. I just was in so much pain, I couldn't see straight. I don't know what finally scared Amy, but we have a video of the birth, well, of part of it. And you can see when she gets panicked. I don't know if she finally maybe didn't hear the heart tones. Later on my doula was telling me, I don't believe that they were actually hearing the babies heart tones with the Doppler. I think they were hearing yours who.

Tiffany Reese (15:59)

Was doing these things.

Sarah (16:01)

I'd say honestly it was everybody because sometimes it was the student. Amy said, stand up. You gotta get your baby out. I sense this is not good. Stood up. Put my leg up on the side of the tub like Captain Morgan. That's how I gave birth. Basically my husband was beneath me and was gonna like catch the baby. I don't think he should have been in that position. He's in the tub soaking wet. She said, you have to get this baby out now. And then she said something along the lines of like, I'm gonna have to help you. And she's got a scalpel in her hand and you can see in the video, part of me wishes she would have just given me the pisiotomy and helped me get him out. Whatever would have stopped the situation from happening. She didn't have access, like I feel like to me or my baby to get in there and help with the scalpel. Even if that's what she was gonna have to do.

Tiffany Reese (16:47)

That's very scary, though.

Sarah (16:49)

Yeah, yeah.

Unknown (16:51)

That video was so chilling. I was able to, like, zoom in with my video. So I was only looking at her. When I got to the part where she was talking. You can see her panicked, in my.

Sarah (17:04)

Opinion, at the very end of the video, before it goes out, I finally scream like, I can't stand on this leg anymore. I was on one leg, obviously. Cramping everywhere. I need someone here to help get this baby out. And it's not my poor husband. He's never done this before. This is his first birth. If you've been to hundreds or thousands of births, get in and help. Not my poor husband, who's probably gonna be scarred for life. I think that's when my husband sensed, okay, this isn't right, this isn't good. So he squeezes my belly from the top.

Tiffany Reese (17:39)

Were they directing him to do this.

Unknown (17:41)

Or his instincts were just kicking in?

Sarah (17:43)

No, he just kicked in. He just started pushing on the top of my belly as hard as he could. I was pushing and then his head came out. And then everybody seemed relief. And then that was when the scalpel went flying. He was covered in meconium and it was dripping out of me. One more push, one more squeeze got him out. I mean, once his head came out, he came out pretty quickly. My son ended up being born at 8:55 at night of April 22, which was Monday night. 34 hours of labor from my very first contraction to him coming out at around 9:00.

Tiffany Reese (18:18)

How long had it been between when your water broke and when he was born?

Sarah (18:23)

It was 31 hours with the meconium in it the second it was broke. So that also ups the ante. Now that I've researched things, they got him out and put him on my chest for just a second. I have a picture where I'm so relieved. This is brutal. It was war, but I've done it. And then they pulled him right off of me. I think her hands are on him in the picture, taking him immediately away. He never cried. He was covered in the meconium. They could see it. So they wanted to start suctioning, but immediately they were calling for the ambulance. They took him over to that pretty cabinet with the mirrors and they open it up and they have a little place there where they set him. And they started trying to suction him, but the suctions weren't working. He had so much meconium in his lungs and in his throat, so he didn't have any air. His discharge summary says the transport team was contacted at 2,100. But after five minutes of waiting for arrival, the transport team decided to expedite arrival and go to the birthing center using their personal vehicle. So the NICU nurses. We were supposed to wait for security, but they went ahead and got in their own car and came over because they knew where the birthing center was. There are angels sent from above because they realized the emergency. And if they would have waited, they wouldn't have made it there in time. He had no respiratory effort and no heart rate when they arrived. According to this, he was not alive. They were trying to intubate him. They got him intubated. It says a large amount of meconium suctioned from the tube following intubation. Then it said the heart rate noticed to be rising. Chest compressions were stopped. The total time for chest compressions was two minutes. They were still waiting for the ambulance to arrive. So waiting for another five minutes, the infant stabilized and was transferred to Baylor Universal Medical center for further management. So the NICU nurses got him stable in the birthing center in their little medical cabinet. He was born at 8:55 and he didn't get to the hospital until 9:40. So that was a very long time. I feel like we could have just ran him across the street and gotten him help faster. My husband went with him by ambulance to Baylor. I had to deliver the placenta. Still. I just remember telling myself, this isn't happening. My doula. After the birth, she called another one of her doula friends to have her come replace her. My doula was spent. This was a long day, emotionally draining. And I think she really knew the gravity of what had just happened, Whereas I didn't understand anything yet. I did not know how serious this was. Even at this point when they took him away, I just thought, okay, maybe he had a hard time breathing. And they're taking him to the hospital. I still had to deliver this placenta. I do not have any recollection of delivering the placenta at all. Afterwards, she said, you can't go until you go pee. I remember I sat there and tried and I tried. I was so frustrated. And she's like, I could catheterize you. And I'm like, good, please. You know, I remember her saying, it's going to hurt. And I'm thinking, kidding me? From what I've been through for the last however many days, like, I could literally care less. If you catheterize me, how do you.

Tiffany Reese (21:36)

Get to the hospital?

Sarah (21:38)

Someone drove me. Julie was there. Amy went with me, too. By the time I got there, he was already in a NICU bed. He was seizing the ambulance on the way to the hospital. When he went to the nicu, he had no reflexes. They would scrape the bottom of his foot. Your toes are supposed to curl. None of that happened. If they pull their arms down, they're supposed to kind of spring back up. That didn't happen. All these little check marks. They were assessing him and determined that he had moderate hie, which HIE stands for hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy. It's essentially lack of oxygen to the brain. He was already in a NICU bed on the cooling blanket. The faster they initiate it, the better chance it has of working. So they cool their body down to like, 92.3 degrees. They want him to go essentially into hypothermia. This allows the brain to heal itself instead of continuing to swell. Once the cooling is initiated, they can be on it for 72 hours. After that, 72 hours, they have to warm them back up to normal body temperature. It's such a delicate process. When he warmed him up, he started having continuous seizures. He was on loads of phenobarb and Versed and stuff like that that were supposed to stop them, and they didn't. He's obviously fully intubated at this point. I think he was five or six days old in the hospital before they put him on my chest again with all of his tubes this time and intubated and EEG on his head and all this stuff. They told us that he was brain damaged. Now, the extent of the brain damage, they said we're not going to be able to see until we're able to do an mri. But you should expect to see large, large areas of brain damage. It's been long enough that his lungs are clean. There's no more meconium in it. He's not breathing because his brain is not telling his body to breathe. That's how much brain damage there is. So that's why he's on a ventilator. And at that point in time, my husband said, that sounds like we just have more to pray about. Of course, I'm just a wreck. I'm like, you're not understanding what he's saying. I would go to the hospital every day, all day long, from 8am to 8pm my mother and my husband made me return home every night so I could try and be a, quote, normal person. But I was not. I was sick. And I had this sick feeling in my stomach. And I Remember knowing I can't live with this feeling in me. I'm like, it's my fault. I shouldn't have been at this birthing center. You know, I should have been here the whole time. Why wasn't I here? He was born April 22nd was the 25th. That's when they warmed him up. Seizures nonstop until May 6th. We went home at night and we were anointed with oil from Jerusalem, which my mom had gotten on her trip to Israel. Anointed with oil. On behalf of my son, our family prayed. And when we walked in the NICU the next day, he was breathing room air. That same very day, they pulled out his nose cannula, they put him to the breast, and he started breastfeeding by mouth for the first time. There's two therapists, Karen and Jenny. Jenny is a speech therapist. Jenny was the one who, when they put tough on the breast for the first time, she was crying and she was saying, suck, swallow, breathe. That's what he's doing. He's not brain dead. His brain is telling him to do this. Then Karen comes rushing in because they're friends and she's the occupational therapist who checked Tuff's reflexes when they first got him in there. Then Karen checked all of his reflexes, and he all of a sudden was doing everything. His toes curled, you know, his arms popped back. Then she's in tears and she said in her 30 something years being at Baylor, she had never seen a miracle like, tough. He never had a seizure again. Slowly but surely, they took all the tubes off of him and they realized he didn't need it. And we walked out of the hospital May 14th. We knew he'd seen a miracle. Got the MRI back and it came back as normal. It showed a few areas of low blood flow. Ischemia is what they had said. But overall, they still considered it a, quote, normal mri. And we were told to expect something far, far worse. We had the greatest team taking care of us. But Tough to me is nothing but a miracle. A miracle straight from God. Obviously, everything that the nurses and the doctors did saved his brain from any further damage that was caused by the lack of oxygen through the cooling therapy and the cooling blanket and the sweet nurses and therapists.

Tiffany Reese (26:13)

Did Amy Tate or anyone from Origins reach out to you while he was in nicu? What was your contact like with them post delivery?

Sarah (26:22)

We all kind of kept in contact, really, probably via just text message. I wasn't mentally doing so well most of the time while he was there until he started Getting better. I would tell them what was going on, keep him up to date. When he did start getting better, I'm like, told the whole world. Everyone was really thrilled. We went afterwards with Tuff to Origins, took a picture with the midwives, like all the babies do, you know, you go for your post visit. So we did all of that.

Tiffany Reese (26:50)

Bringing him home must have been such a big deal.

Sarah (26:53)

Oh, my gosh, yes. But we had to wean him off of phenobarbital. That's a very powerful drug. They told us he had infantile spasms. It was a type of seizure. There was this therapy called acth, this hormone that. He got injections twice a day in each leg for two weeks straight. So we had to continue to do those. When we brought him home for the infantile spasms, he had a spinal tap, two weeks. He had all these pokes and prods, EEGs and lines in his belly buttons. All of these things that, you know, were extremely painful. And it makes me so sad for him that he had to go through that. My doula, she wrote me a summary. She had said things were a little shocking with how they treated him after the birth. Access to the baby was substandard, to say the least. She said they did include me in the resuscitation as a partnership and respectful in searching me out for advice and assurance that they were doing the best things.

Tiffany Reese (27:50)

Asking the doula if they're doing the right thing.

Sarah (27:54)

Yeah, my doula was a nurse, but she's not there as a nurse. That's why she had said to me in this email that she was really trying to stay in her lane. She says, I'm not a nurse when I'm a doula. And I really try to compartmentalize that. But once it came down to a life or death situation, she said, I didn't really care about staying in my lane and being fearful as my license as a nurse because she was driven strictly by her instincts to do everything that she could for him and for me. If my doula wasn't there, how much worse would it have been? He was in physical therapy for the first year of his life. Remember, they said he needed to crawl by nine months. There was this big looming deadline in my head. He's gotta crawl by nine months. He was like eight months and 30 days, and he got the knees and crawled. We were screaming and jumping and crying. It was so huge. They told us, we'll see if he walks, we'll see if he talks. They just kept kind of inching out this Milestone thing. That baby who was supposed to be brain dead, he was riding his balance bike flying down driveways at 17 months old, but he was appropriately named. And now we have three more brothers and sisters. That was always the plan. We were going to fill up the house. So now we have four. Four babies. And he's the sweetest big brother in the world. It wasn't until a year later when I was watching a movie with my husband and there was a woman giving birth in the movie, it sent me complete panic, attack, meltdown. And my sister in law gave birth a year later, and that sent me into a meltdown. I was physically starting to have panic attacks about this subject. I just remember thinking, if I had just gone straight to the hospital, you know, they would have known his heart rate, they would have known why I wasn't dilating. I probably could have asked for some drugs by then and I could have been able to push through the pain. You know, just all these things that of course, I put on myself later. That isn't fair. And that was when I started thinking of, was this right? Was my son really in the best of care? We saw the meconium in the birthing center. That's where it all went wrong. I was low risk until I wasn't. As soon as you introduce something like the meconium, it changes everything. It changed my birth and it changed my son's story. We were just constantly being reassured that everything was fine. My mom told me later that in the NICU that night, when everybody rushed in and Tuff was already on the cooling blanket, we were all in the waiting room. My mom said, I'll never forget that. Amy looked at her and said, I'm just so sorry, but these things just happen. Our world is destroyed, right? Our family doesn't know what's happening to their first grandchild from me. And I'm like, no, these things do not just happen. Like, I know bad things happen, okay? But this one was avoidable. I feel like there was enough warning signs. And if I hadn't been blind with pain and exhaustion, I would have been the one to say it. Me and my husband, we weren't even at our first wedding anniversary yet. By the time that this whole thing happened with Tuff, he said to me something like, I knew you wanted to do this, and I was fully supportive. But had I known you like I known you now, I would have physically carried you out of that plate. Like, we would have been gone. We just literally didn't know each other like that. I didn't know what I could and couldn't say to you. I don't think it was malicious, but they were not competent in what they were doing. Amy's license says June 6th of 2018. So that's less than a year before my son was born. Meanwhile, Megan was less than a year. She was August of 2018. I think about the birth every single day and it's, quite frankly, exhausting. This summer I was doing a little bit of Internet Facebook sleuthing. Amy's Paige. I've had her muted for a long time. I haven't outright unfriended her, but it causes me a lot of anxiety seeing her all the time. But somehow I stumbled upon Kristen's profile and then I saw we had a mutual friend, Amy. And then I deep dived. And that's when I found Markita and her story. And I was utterly shocked. I saw the kind of work Kristen was doing. It made me think, there's more people out there than just me. This hasn't just happened to me in tough. I don't know why I didn't assume this before. I didn't know these type of things really did keep happening. And not only happening, but happening there. Maybe with different midwives, but still at Origins. So I reached out to Kristen, then she reached out to me again in December and I heard about this podcast. I haven't heard anything from amy in probably 5 plus years. Not anything after Tuff was 3 or 4 months old. I don't post much. She randomly liked to post and went deep diving maybe into my socials and started liking and commenting. And obviously it's just because of this podcast. It was the day I reached out to her. Yeah, the very day I thought, oh, wow, here she comes. Because all of a sudden her name's been dropped. But she hasn't asked in the past five years. Hey, how's Tuff doing?

Unknown (33:09)

I waited to reach out to her all the same day, back to back.

Tiffany Reese (33:14)

Call Gina, call Caitlin, call Jennifer Crawford, et cetera.

Unknown (33:17)

None of them returned for comment. And then I email Amy and she right away calls me and leaves me this voicemail where she's just kind of like instantly spiraling. And then she sends me an email and it's pretending like I did not.

Tiffany Reese (33:37)

Reach out to her at all. She instead is like, I'm writing you because your podcast says something about me. And I got a negative review on my Google reviews. My name has been in the podcast because Kristin mentioned that she was her midwife before transferring care to Jennifer.

Unknown (33:55)

And so it wasn't until we had allegations that we're going to reach out to her.

Tiffany Reese (34:00)

She was just mad that her name.

Unknown (34:01)

Was mentioned and she was like.

Tiffany Reese (34:03)

Which is concerning because you're connecting me to Origins. Literal facts that are in public court documents because of all the lawsuits.

Unknown (34:13)

She was in emotion and anger at the moment and in shock, maybe. She called again and then I texted her.

Tiffany Reese (34:21)

I was like, I have availability later. I'll give you a call.

Unknown (34:24)

So then we end up connecting.

Tiffany Reese (34:30)

Hey, Amy.

Unknown (34:31)

Sorry, took me a second to get to the phone.

Sarah (34:34)

No worries.

Tiffany Reese (34:35)

I'm sorry.

Unknown (34:35)

We've been playing phone tag all day.

Amy Tate (34:38)

That's okay. I don't know what I can really add to your story, and I do want to clarify with you because my name does seem to be mentioned quite a few times. And now I have this review on my website. I have not had anything to do with Origins since late summer 2021. I was forced out of a business that I was running solely.

Unknown (35:10)

The reason I hadn't reached out to you before was because, quite frankly, there was no, like, allegations against you. That it was more like the passive mentioning of your name as just kind of like a fact. And we were able to confirm that through like, the court documents and stuff. And then I never had any allegations against me ever.

Amy Tate (35:33)

I'm still. I mean, I still have not had any allegations against me.

Tiffany Reese (35:37)

Yeah.

Amy Tate (35:37)

Because I practice safely and true midwifery care, unlike some people. I just feel like I'm in some way being like, in, like there are. Even though I get it, like, no allegations have been made. It does seem that people are thinking that I'm somehow a. Associated with these outcomes, which I am so, so, so sad that they happened, but also so thankful that I have absolutely no, nothing to do with them.

Tiffany Reese (36:13)

So there have been a few people.

Unknown (36:15)

That have come forward alleging that they were under your care at Origins before you left and they're reporting negligence.

Amy Tate (36:30)

So I don't think that that is factual information. I can't speak to anything without knowing what it is.

Unknown (36:39)

Right. I can shed a little bit more insight on that, on that piece, but that's when, like, the shift happened. And that's why I wanted to connect with you because obviously that's a very different situation. I don't know if you recall Sarah and her son.

Tiffany Reese (36:55)

Tough.

Amy Tate (36:57)

I do recall Sarah. Absolutely. I recall Sarah.

Sarah (37:00)

Yes, I do.

Amy Tate (37:02)

I can't speak to her case without permission. I think that there was something called meconium aspiration syndrome that led to her case, but I can't really go into Great detail about it.

Unknown (37:22)

Yeah, I know it's tricky with HIPAA violations and all that kind of stuff to like speak to it. So I was going to ask you more like general questions, more of like your processes in terms of how long would you consider too long that someone is pushing before you transfer them?

Amy Tate (37:41)

It really depends on the medical standard stability of both mom and baby.

Unknown (37:47)

Yeah.

Amy Tate (37:48)

So if heart rate is stable and there are no signs of distress. So you're listening to the heart every 5ish minutes every other contraction, basically while people are pushing and baby sometimes shows you that they're not doing great by having what's called a deceleration. And if a baby were to have a deceleration, then that would be concerning and you would listen longer. You may make a change immediately. I think that that that person actually videoed their birth.

Unknown (38:29)

Yeah, they did. They did provide that.

Amy Tate (38:33)

Yeah. So like during listening, if baby stable, then you can continue to push for it. You know, it depends how long, but three to four hours is very common for first time moms to push.

Unknown (38:53)

Okay. Okay.

Amy Tate (38:55)

Even in a hospital setting where they're medicated, sometimes if we transfer people, we see them push for 4, 5 hours at the hospital. As long as baby stable.

Unknown (39:07)

Okay. And then what? There was another claim, like records being changed after the fact or things being.

Amy Tate (39:16)

In forever changed in my. And when I was there, I've never.

Sarah (39:22)

Okay.

Amy Tate (39:24)

I have never experienced that.

Unknown (39:26)

Okay. Were you aware of Gina and Caitlyn's practices when it came to that?

Amy Tate (39:32)

I never worked directly with Gina and.

Unknown (39:35)

Caitlin because it sounds like they had you working the floor by yourself essentially doing everything before you left, is what I gathered.

Amy Tate (39:44)

Yeah, I mean, I would not disagree with that statement. Yeah, I mean they did, they did.

Unknown (39:50)

A lot of like business stuff. Yeah, more of the, like running of it. One of the claims was that she wasn't aware that shoulder dysplasia was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go back.

Amy Tate (40:08)

So. Well, that person has never made a claim and against me.

Unknown (40:15)

Yeah, she did. She did tell me that, which is why I want to make sure I reach out and we discussed it. And then there are a few others who have.

Amy Tate (40:26)

There are people that, that have been in care and come back to care and now because they're being contacted and kind of rallied, honestly, you know, have you ever heard of a witch hunt where you just kind of go after anybody you can find and you feed them information?

Unknown (40:50)

Yeah, they said that you would say that. Actually they said that that's what Origins has claimed this whole time.

Amy Tate (40:58)

Well, that's what Origins was claiming. And I doubted it. I did. But now it's like every single midwife who ever came across, who ever transferred somebody legitimately, whoever had somebody, you know, who. Who had not a bad outcome. But there's one person who's upset now because they wanted me to be their midwife and I wasn't on call.

Unknown (41:24)

Like, I mean, I can't speak to all of that.

Amy Tate (41:30)

Confusing, if that makes sense.

Unknown (41:33)

Yeah. My perspective from the people that I've spoken to is that they feel that they had really to Kristen initially and.

Amy Tate (41:44)

Was helpful to her. So now I'm like, what's going on?

Unknown (41:49)

Kristen did not share anything negative with. With me about you or I would have reached out sooner.

Amy Tate (41:57)

I had no very little interaction until after her outcome.

Tiffany Reese (42:03)

So that makes.

Unknown (42:04)

Right.

Sarah (42:05)

Right.

Unknown (42:05)

She said that you left and then Jennifer, who was a student, became her quote, midwife who had no business practicing. Did you know that they were gonna handle the clients that way? That they were gonna be passed off to a student?

Amy Tate (42:23)

I knew that they were unethical and I told them that they needed to provide someone to be her preceptor because I would no longer do it.

Sarah (42:34)

Yeah.

Unknown (42:35)

Did you ever feel like when you were leaving, like the need to alert the authorities, did you worry that what Gina and Caitlin were doing were criminal at the time?

Amy Tate (42:46)

I did not. I was very blindsided by the takeover. They are very good con artists and they kept everything very close to their chest.

Tiffany Reese (43:05)

Okay.

Amy Tate (43:06)

After I left, there were some things that started happening that made me feel like there wasn't much oversight at the old practice. I had nothing to do with the practice after that.

Unknown (43:20)

And they're basically. Their claim against you was essentially that you had breached your contract, but your claim. No, they're claim not.

Amy Tate (43:28)

No great claims. That later when they sued me for saying I was going to open a birth center later and.

Unknown (43:35)

Gotcha. The subsequent lawsuit. Right, Right. Sorry.

Tiffany Reese (43:39)

Yes.

Unknown (43:39)

Yes.

Tiffany Reese (43:40)

Okay.

Amy Tate (43:41)

Read the answer from my attorney because that's the real story.

Unknown (43:44)

Yeah.

Sarah (43:45)

Okay.

Amy Tate (43:46)

That's what really happened. I didn't know I needed a heavy hitter lawyer. I thought I was just like negotiating to get out of a terrible situation with them.

Unknown (43:56)

Yeah.

Amy Tate (43:57)

One is when I hired somebody and spent the mass part of my savings to put the real story out there. Read that story. That's the real story of what happened. And then they decided they had nothing. So be very careful because I do have a real good attorney and some of what you're insinuating has never been brought until this started. I hear you Understand that people can say anything. Like I could say right now, Amy.

Unknown (44:25)

I've been doing this a long time. I'm very well aware of how everything works. But I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Bye bye.

Amy Tate (44:34)

Bye bye.

Mr. Ballin (44:43)

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Sarah (45:42)

She reached out to me March 16th. I'll just read it to you. It says, I honor your feelings and memories, even if they are different than mine. It was an honor to be a part of your labor and birth. And I remember that day so clearly. The meconium was trapped behind his head and unknown until birth. It was a shock and we acted quickly to support and stabilize while NICU was en route. Julie, a hospital trained CNM and I both remember the day so well. And then she sent a link to meconium aspiration syndrome. That was her message.

Tiffany Reese (46:22)

So basically she's not sorry and you're wrong.

Sarah (46:25)

She didn't even know what I remember. That's the funny thing. She hasn't heard anything from me. She sent me a link to Maconia masturbation syndrome. Obviously, I understand what that is. I have to live through it. I'm still, still living through it. The timing couldn't be better for my rage because this week I had to take Tuff to the neurologist again. He had to have an eeg. He's sitting there saying to me while they're putting the things on his head, mommy, what's wrong with my brain? I have to tell him, nothing is wrong with your brain and you are perfect. But we have to make these check ins and we have to do this stuff when I'm long and Gone. He's gonna have to keep up with his own paperwork and make his own appointments, all because of this one day. I wrote her back. I just gave it to her. Some of what I said was, it does seem like we do indeed remember the day differently. Julie is a cnn, but you and Megan were the midwives in charge of our care. And you being the owner of Origins at the time, I feel like it defaults to you. I'm fully aware of meconium aspiration syndrome now, unfortunately, I wasn't at the time I was giving birth. One thing you might be forgetting was that when my water broke there at the birthing center, I had meconium stained amniotic fluid, which then put me at a much higher risk for mas Meconium aspiration syndrome. So it shouldn't have been a shock that meconium was present at delivery. And she's saying it was a shock, like she didn't know it was there. What are you talking about? My water had been broke from over 31 hours with meconium by the time my son was born. And I said, had the risk been explained to me that your child could be brain damaged or die, then I would likely have chosen to transfer. With this vital information, I was owed at least the full explanation of the risks of staying. Then, no, he was not stabilized. I have hospital paperwork that shows he had no respiratory effort and no heart rate when the NICU team arrived. In fact, he was not alive. I told her there's a survivor group of origins with over 40 people in it. I tell her about the mental side effects for me and my husband. I wrote her this very heartfelt eight page thing to her, like, here's what I think you did wrong. Here's where you can do better. This is how it affected me and others around. Basically. I hope we can kind of move forward. The Christian woman in me is trying to forgive Amy Tate, but she writes, sarah, I'm glad you shared your feelings. I respect them and wish your family nothing but the best. I do want to clarify that Julie was not a student at the time. She was a CNM but training in out of hospital birth as she had only worked in the hospital. Tuff did have a heartbeat the whole time. We performed NRP and called over the NICU team. They had MAs at the hospital and told us it took longer because they had to come over separately. We used suction, oxygen and the Doppler the whole time and they intubated when they got there. Also, the survivors of the Origins group was started Long after I was bought out. I do not know the people in that group. And then she wrote, I will also never forget Tuff. So then I wrote back, here is the paperwork from the trained medical professionals about what happened to him, and I'll let that be the end. It's a screenshot from his actual Baylor University paperwork that says, on arrival, infant noted to have no respiratory effort and no heart rate. Infant suction due to visible meconium noted in mouth and PPV initiated. After 30 seconds of effective PPV and while awaiting intubation equipment, chest compressions initiated. Due to absent heart rate.

Tiffany Reese (50:14)

I'm sorry. She's trying to rewrite history. How would she know that when they weren't even monitoring him all the time?

Sarah (50:21)

I'm not sure. After I sent her the thing with the paperwork, she wrote, we repeatedly state our sorrow, love, and prayers for Tuff and your family during and after the transport. You have always been in thought and prayer. I can only speak to the heart rate we were getting during the neonatal resuscitation we performed as we waited for the transport team. I do appreciate you sending this over. Many blessings, I'm happy to say again, I'm so deeply sorry for the trauma you experienced. She has yet to say I did anything. It's probably maybe for legal reasons. She doesn't want to say that. She'll say, I'm sorry for the trauma you went through. It's like doing something to somebody and going, I'm sorry that it made you feel that way. Actually, that's not the same thing. I went to Origin's website, and it says, if your healthcare provider needs your records, please sign release to this email address. I haven't heard anything from them. And I'm like, you know what? I'll just go straight to Amy. Hey, Amy, I'd like a copy of my medical records. She says, I'm so happy to send them to you, Sarah. What is your email address? And I gave her the address. Then she wrote, I'm also happy to meet again and hear you. I value all of your feedback and honor your feelings. I pray peace over your heart. But I still don't have any medical records, so there's that. That's what irritates me the most. I'm not holier than thou. You don't have to talk to me like I'm a holy roller. Okay? But I feel like that's what she tries to do. Amy owns her own birth center now. Swiss Avenue Birth and Wellness Center. It's literally on the same street. That Origins was on another small little Victorian house. My point in saying all this is that it wasn't the name of Origins that has done all of this. It's the Midwives. Yes, it was a hell house. There's a lot of bad stuff that happened in there. But who was facilitating that? Origins got shut down and now we just have like four different Origins that have sprouted up in its place.

Tiffany Reese (52:22)

Amy Tate was Jennifer Crawford's preceptor.

Sarah (52:26)

Yes.

Unknown (52:27)

And then Amy left. Cause Gina and Caitlyn were allegedly overseeing Jennifer Crawford.

Sarah (52:35)

She might have switched his Amy left. I mean, this is Jennifer's own words. It's screenshotted June 20th of 2019. Now don't forget my son. He was born April of 2019. So just two months later, Jennifer started first day, first birth. It was an honor to be a part of the love and compassion that goes with out of hospital midwifery care. What is Sad is that March 25th of 2020 she posted midwifery is hard. This beautiful sleeping baby and her sweet family are in my continued thoughts and prayers. I don't know who that is referencing, but that is referencing another baby lost. March 25th of 2020. She just has this on her facebook here. World lost a baby and who knows how many that there are. According to Jennifer's Facebook July 18th of 2020 she writes a post still in awe. My dream is finally coming true. So thankful for my amazing preceptor Amy Tate and all my midwife mentors who cheer me on. They have their name and then they have these letters behind it. Do we all know what all these letters mean? Do you go and Google licensed Midwife or CNM Certified nurse Midwife? They've got these letters behind. To me it meant something in the medical world. If the state of Texas would allow a place like Origins to have many, many, many babies born there, one would assume that if this is legal, then they have gone through a rigorous check. If I could implore any woman to please do more research than I did, if I could go back and tell myself everything, I would say think of your baby, not of you and your birthing experience that you want to have. I think that every birth can be magical in itself, whether it is inside the walls of a hospital or in a birthing center. But to me it's not about me. It's about your unborn baby who doesn't have the choice of how's he going to come out. If I wanted to go all natural, I could have done that within the safety of a Hospital. I think midwives are great. I saw a wonderful midwife group after Tuff with my subsequent children that delivered in a hospital. I got admitted and I was, quote, trying to go natural again. I gave myself like a 12 hour limit. I'm not gonna go through 30 something hours of this again. And so I hit my 12 hour mark. I got an epidural. I do not know why I ever suffered for days on end in this kind of pain. So I put my makeup on, I have my fake eyelashes, and, you know, the whole thing. I was the happiest girl in the world. Midwife. She said, we don't have to call it, but you might be in for a long push. And after what happened last time, I don't want this to be any type of emergent situation. I said, you know what? I am perfectly fine with a C section if what's safest for my baby is to call the OB and get him here right now and let's just get him out, let's do that. And she said, I do think that that's what's safest for you and your baby, as long as you're okay with that. And this is a midwife saying this. She's not here trying to push for natural birth. And I respected her more for that. And I said, call the doc. I've already got my makeup on. You're telling me I could hold my baby within an hour? Like, let's do this. My second son, Rocky, came out and I just wanted him to breathe. That was it. I could care less what amount of drugs they pumped into me or didn't. I just wanted to hear him cry. And he did. And he's perfect. He's fine. He's all mine. And it didn't matter that I had a C section with him. That was the safest option at that point. At the end of the day, it's you and your baby that come home or don't come home. Whoever you birth with, an ob, a midwife, they all just go back to their lives and keep going. They can forget what happened or how traumatic they really were because only you go home with your baby and are left to deal with the doctor appointments. You can feel like they're part of your family and get that warm and fuzzy. And the birthing center is beautiful and great. It's just a business. Birthing is business. And I hate to say it like that, but it's 100% true. And I think that that's why we didn't get transferred to the hospital. Because they probably would lose out on money.

Unknown (56:54)

What do you hope that listeners will.

Tiffany Reese (56:57)

Remember when they're hearing these stories this season?

Sarah (57:00)

If you have any doubt in your head, get a second opinion or go to the hospital. If something isn't right, advocate for yourself, advocate for your baby. If something is off, it's okay to get out of there. I had that bargain with God that if he'd save my son, I'd tell as many people as possible. I need to tell his story, not only for his sake, but for my sake. I need to get this off my chest. I finally this week joined the Origins survivors group. There's big stuff happening because of what went wrong at Origins. I'm very proud of Kristin and all the girls. I'm kind of late to the game, but I'm getting involved. I know you'll move on to other stories and things will happen. But you know what? This needed to happen for the birth community and obviously for Dallas. But where else this is gonna reach? I hope that Malik's Law gets pushed through and we can make birthing safer. It's not about attacking the midwives. It's about making birth safer for the moms and the babies. Cause that just should be the bottom line.

Tiffany Reese (58:01)

Sarah and Tuff, thank you so, so much for sharing your story with us. I appreciate all of your energy and time. I know it's not easy to revisit, and I genuinely appreciate it so much.

Sarah (58:14)

Absolutely. I'm happy to finally be able to tell our story almost six years later. Very grateful.

Tiffany Reese (58:28)

Monday, April 21, 2025. Our team reached back out to Amy Tate with a full document with quotes of allegations that would be included in episodes 12 and 13 this season. The following day, she sent her final statement in regards to these allegations. Hi. Thank you for your message and for the opportunity to respond. I understand that I am being named in an upcoming episode of Something was Wrong in connection to care I provided as a midwife. While I cannot discuss the details of any specific client experience due to confidentiality, I want to express my heartfelt empathy to any family who has experienced pain, fear, or lasting harm in their birthing journey. Birth is one of the most sacred, vulnerable moments in a person's life as a provider, I've always held that responsibility with deep care. If a client remembers their experience differently than I intended or if my presence contributed to harm in ways I did not realize at the time, I carry that seriously. Since 2021, I stepped away from Origins and built a new practice, continuing my work, which is rooted in reflection. Integrity and transparency. My license remains in good standing and I continue to serve families with the same commitment I've held throughout my career to walk beside them with care, clarity and humility. Thank you again for the opportunity to respond and for amplifying voices that often go unheard. With respect. Amy F. Tate LM CPM Clinical Director Swiss Avenue Birth and Wellness Collaborative Next time on Something Was Wrong.

Unknown (60:20)

Then all of a sudden I just remember, I just hear this pouring sound as if someone was pouring water on the floor. I'm like, what is that? I found out it was me. I was hemorrhaging because the placenta had abrupted from the wall. I delivered the placenta and normally a placenta is the size of like a large dinner plate, and mine was the size of a small pancake. So it just shows you, like, how damaged and how unhealthy that placenta was.

Tiffany Reese (60:50)

Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle Media Production created and produced by Executive Producer Tiffany Reese Associate producers Amy B. Chesler and Lily Rowe with audio editing and music design by Becca High. Thank you to our extended team, Lauren Barkman, our social Media Marketing manager and Sarah Stewart, our graphic artist. Thank you to Marissa Travis and our team at WME Wondry, Jason and Jennifer, our cybersecurity team, Darkbox Security and my lawyer Alan. Thank you endlessly to every survivor who has ever trusted us with their stories. And thank you each and every listener for making our show possible with your support and listenership. Special Shout out to Emily Wolf for covering gladrag's original song you Think youk for us this season. For more music by Emily Wolf, check out the Episode notes or your favorite music streaming app. Speaking of Episode Notes, there every week you'll find episode specific content, warnings, sources and resources. Until next time, stay, stay safe friends. If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey.

Unknown (62:24)

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Unknown (63:11)

This case is one of those roller.

Unknown (63:12)

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