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S24 Ep23: Your Money or Your Child's Life

Something Was Wrong

Thu Dec 04 2025

Summary

Something Was Wrong – S24 Ep23: “Your Money or Your Child’s Life”

Release Date: December 4, 2025
Host: Tiffany Reese, Broken Cycle Media
Guests: Max (survivor) and Max’s dad

Episode Overview

This powerful episode of Something Was Wrong dives into the world of the “troubled teen industry,” with survivor Max and their father recounting Max’s journey through two notorious institutions: Sage Walk Wilderness School and Mount Bachelor Academy. Through candid recollections and critical discussion, the episode exposes the manipulation, trauma, and systemic failures embedded in these programs, while exploring the family dynamics and desperate decision-making that often precede such placements.

Main Themes & Purpose

Examination of the “troubled teen industry” and its exploitative practices
Personal narratives of trauma, survival, and family impact
Institutional manipulation and the business of behavioral rehab programs
The lingering effects of forced wilderness therapy and boarding schools on youth

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: The Troubled Teen Industry (02:49 – 06:31)

The troubled teen industry includes wilderness therapy and therapeutic boarding schools marketed to desperate parents.
Sage Walk Wilderness School and Mount Bachelor Academy both had histories of documented abuse and ultimately closed following investigations, lawsuits, and declining enrollment.
- Notable Quote:
  “One complaint said this case involves institutionalized physical and psychological child abuse.” – Tiffany Reese (05:48)

2. Max’s Childhood and Family Dynamics (07:09 – 13:42)

Max describes a childhood in a high-achieving, suburban environment with little supervision and significant family instability (parental divorce, remarriage, ongoing conflict).
Early behavioral challenges and likely undiagnosed neurodivergence led to therapy, heavy medication, and ongoing family stress.
- Max:
  “They were like, my child has problems. Let me just try to fix it. ... if you look at the environment at the time, it would make a lot of sense why I was having behavioral outbursts.” (09:25)
Max’s dad recognizes the emotional dysfunction passed down from his own upbringing.
- Dad:
  "I decided, well, I’m just going to work super hard and I’ll provide for my family, and I’ll be 1950s working dad... There was lots and lots of yelling in the house.” (11:40)

3. Adolescence Escalation and Parental Desperation (13:43 – 19:39)

As family issues and substance abuse escalated, Max experienced increasing behavioral problems, self-harm, and disordered eating.
The family endured contentious custody battles, geographical moves, social isolation, and Max withdrawing further.
- Max:
  “The behavioral problems were increasing. I would steal alcohol ... I had started cutting at that time. I was bulimic. So it was all ramping up really intensely.” (15:54)
Dad describes feeling increasingly alarmed and powerless, seeking advice from therapists, peer groups, and law enforcement-oriented parental programs.

4. Choosing Wilderness Therapy (24:09 – 30:02)

Max’s dad was referred to Sage Walk via community, therapy professionals, and program marketing. The program was expensive and sold as a last-resort, potentially life-saving option.
- Dad:
  "The sales pitch is when you balk at the it’s going to be $25,000... They go, well, what’s more important, your money or your child’s life?" (26:46)
He describes feeling manipulated and isolated in the decision-making process.
- Dad:
  “It’s like paying people to come in your house. And kidnap your child. It was the worst thing I’ve ever done in my life.” (30:06)

5. The Transport – “Go with them” (30:26 – 34:27)

Max recounts the trauma of being “transported” (forcibly removed from home by strangers in the night), a common practice in the industry.
- Max:
  “Your life is never the same after that one singular moment. ... I have weapons by my bed because if that ever happens to me again...” (32:58)
The transporting agents intimidate Max, emphasizing their “legal right” and control.

6. Life at Sage Walk Wilderness School (34:27 – 55:10)

Max describes dehumanizing intake procedures: blindfolding on remote drives, humiliating medical exams, enforced uniforms, and harsh rules.
Isolation, survival tasks, and neglect were routine: rationed food, little medical care, military-style drills, punitive responses to minor infractions.
- Max:
  “If you try to run away, you will die out here because nobody’s going to be able to find you if you take off your orange clothing.” (36:37)
Emotional regulation and connection are intentionally broken down.
- Max:
  “There was definitely a scarcity mindset that was impinged upon you throughout these experiences.” (39:45)
Counseling advertised as part of the program was nearly nonexistent; staff were typically young and unqualified.
- Max:
  “I never saw anyone who would have been a Licensed therapist, as far as I know. I never was put on any type of plan.” (47:28)

7. Institutional Gaslighting and Parental Manipulation (48:14 – 49:01, 55:27 – 56:08)

Letters home from participants were scripted and monitored, with staff warning parents not to trust complaints from their children.
- Dad:
  “Before I even got any sort of negative feedback from Max, they already told me it’s very common for your child to make up stories... so you’ll come get them for you.” (48:36)
Parents are repeatedly pressured to pay for extended stays and further transfers:
- Dad:
  “They’re fucking smart. They got it down.” (55:27)

8. Trauma, Isolation, and Aftermath (49:03 – 58:07)

The isolation and “solo” time in the wilderness were particularly traumatizing.
- Max:
  “I think I spent the first four days of it just crying. ... They just let you experience that because they think…you need to be on your own while you’re dealing with that, which is a really wonderful way to destroy someone’s attachment style...” (52:11)
Max discovers they will not be returning home, but transferred directly to Mount Bachelor Academy—another high-control, unregulated program run by the same parent company.
The ripple effects of Max's absence and trauma impact the entire family—especially the younger sister.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“What’s more important, your money or your child’s life?” (Max’s Dad, 26:46)
– A line emblematic of the coercive sales strategies used by the troubled teen industry.
“It’s like paying people to come in your house. And kidnap your child. It was the worst thing I’ve ever done in my life.” (Max’s Dad, 30:06)
“Your life is never the same after that one singular moment...” (Max, 32:58)
– Referring to being forcibly transported.
“If you try to run away, you will die out here because nobody’s going to be able to find you if you take off your orange clothing.” (Max, 36:37)
“There was never any real therapy. The staff were in their 20s, maybe early 30s, and none of them were licensed.” (Paraphrased, Max, 47:10 – 47:28)
“It’s the worst kind of scam because they use people that are desperate for a solution, and they know you’re desperate. They’re fucking smart. They got it down.” (Max’s Dad, 55:27)

Important Segment Timestamps

[02:49] — Troubled teen industry background, history of Sage Walk/Mount Bachelor, abuse allegations
[07:09] — Max’s early years and family context
[13:43] — Escalation of family conflict, Max’s behavioral health and self-harm
[24:09] — Dad’s perspective: desperation, isolation, referral to Sage Walk
[26:46] — The manipulation and coercive sales pitch: “What’s more important, your money or your child’s life?”
[30:26] — Max’s experience being transported (“kidnapped”) for wilderness therapy
[34:31] — Arrival at Sage Walk: rules, daily life, deprivation and punishments
[47:17] — False promises of counseling and “healing”
[48:14] — Letters home and institutional gaslighting
[49:03] — Trauma from staff, “Monsoon” and suicide watch, emotional breakdown
[55:27] — Extension of stay: financial and emotional manipulation
[56:14] — Being transferred/funneled to Mount Bachelor under pressure
[58:13] — The aftermath: family impact, lingering trauma

Final Reflections and Teasers

The episode concludes with Max recounting the transfer to Mount Bachelor Academy, their exhaustion, and the trauma of nearly two months at Sage Walk. Max’s father expresses regret, insight into institutional manipulation, and the enduring harm to the family as a whole.

Teaser for Part 2: The next episode promises to explore Max’s experiences at Mount Bachelor, including further examples of degrading “life steps” and the punitive, performative rituals imposed on students.

Tone & Language

The episode is deeply candid, often raw and emotional, mixing Max’s dry humor and searing sarcasm with moments of heartbreak and clarity. The host, Tiffany Reese, offers space, affirmation, and attentive questioning, ensuring the survivor’s voice is at the center throughout.

“Your life is never the same after that one singular moment. ... The level of trauma and PTSD I have around kidnapping and home invasions is not irrational because it’s based in something.”
– Max (32:58)

“It’s the worst kind of scam because they use people that are desperate for a solution, and they know you’re desperate. They’re fucking smart. They got it down.”
– Max’s Dad (55:27)

For more resources or to connect with survivor support, see the episode notes provided by Something Was Wrong.

[End of Summary]

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Transcript

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Rocket Money Advertiser (1:00)

Think about the last time you had to cancel a subscription. There was probably some waiting on hold, some guessing at your password, some mind numbing small talk, and maybe after all that, you still weren't able to cancel it. Good news, it doesn't have to be this way. Thanks to Rocket Money, Rocket Money tracks, manages and can cancel your subscriptions for you. When you connect your account, you'll see a complete picture of all of your recurring subscriptions all in one place. Rocket Money organizes your subscriptions by due date and notifies you when something is coming up so you'll never be caught off guard when you get charged. If you see a subscription you want to cancel, Rocket Money simplifies the process. Instead of waiting on hold for an hour, you can cancel it right from the app. Rocket Money will even try to get you a refund for the money you spent on subscriptions you forgot about. Stop wasting time trying to cancel subscriptions the hard way. Make your life easier and go to RocketMoney.com cancel. That's RocketMoney.com cancel or download the app from the Apple app or Google Play stores.

Tiffany Reese (2:00)

Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences and discusses upsetting topics Season 24 survivors discuss violence that they endured as children, which may be triggering for some listeners. As always, please consume with care for a full content warning, sources and resources for each episode, please visit the Episode Notes opinions shared by the guests of the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of Broken Cycle Media. All persons are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Responses to allegations from individual institutions are included within the season. Something was wrong and any linked material should not be misconstrued as a substitution for legal or medical advice.

Tiffany Reese (2:49)

In our final two episodes this season, Survivor Max and their dad join us to share their experiences navigating institutions in the so called troubled teen industry. Max was transported to the wilderness Therapy program Sage Walk wilderness school in 2007 at the age of 14. Sage Walk Wilderness School began operation in Oregon in the late 1990s and served adolescents between the ages of 13 and 17 with behavioral, emotional or academic challenges. In December 2005, it was acquired by Aspen Education Group, a large provider of programs. While SageWalk allegedly promoted a model that combined wilderness challenge therapy and skills development, the program came under great scrutiny. In August 2009, a 16 year old student died of heatstroke after being required to carry an 80 pound backpack during a hike in high temperature conditions. After the child's death, SageWalk faced heightened scrutiny, investigations and a wrongful death lawsuit. Additional allegations surfaced over the years describing neglectful supervision and pressure placed on students to comply under physically and emotionally taxing circumstances. Although not all allegations resulted in formal findings, they contributed to the program's loss of credibility, declining enrollments and its eventual closure in 2011. After spending nearly two months in the wilderness, Max was then sent to Mount Bachelor Academy, a private therapeutic boarding school for adolescents located in Prineville, Oregon. Mount Bachelor, as it's often called, operated from 1987 until its closure in 2009. Originally founded by College Health Enterprises and later also owned by Aspen Education Group, the program served teens typically ages 14 to 18, with behavioral, emotional, academic or substance use issues. However, during its years of operation, it also faced serious allegations of abusive practices. In 1998, for example, former employees and parents accused MBA of depriving students of sleep, subjecting them to screaming tirades, cold weather, punishment and other harmful treatment. In 2009, the Oregon Department of Human Services concluded a seven month investigation finding multiple instances of abuse and neglect, including sexualized role playing, forced isolation, punitive labor and other degrading acts. As a result, MBA's license was suspended and the school announced its closure in November 2009. In subsequent lawsuits after its closure, former students alleged physical, emotional and sexual abuse while residing at the school. One complaint said this case involves institutionalized physical and psychological child abuse. Students were subjected to sleep deprivation, denial of restroom use, and rotted food. At one LifeSteps session, a female student was forced to spread her legs in front of each of the 15 male participants and their adult male counselor.

Max (7:31)

At the time in Davis, everything was so cookie cutter. There was a really big agriculture component that interacted with the university. So essentially you end up having working class families, students and then children. If you're a little outside the norm, a lot of people take notice. It's very, very suburban and very high achieving. Around elementary age, my mom was running a daycare out of our house and my dad worked for PG&E. One of my first memories is me waking up and hearing them arguing and yelling at them to stop fighting. They were unaware of how it impacted us. I have two older brothers who are eight and 10 years older. They would kind of take over the role of parenting in a lot of cases. And I have a younger sister. She and I would basically run around with my brothers. Not a lot of supervision generally. I think that was very common around that time. So very much felt like latchkey kids between the ages of 8 and 10 was when my parents divorced from each other and then remarried each other. I remember like going to their wedding. It was at the local Catholic parish. It was a big ordeal. I'm sure there's pictures floating around somewhere of me and my sister being like the flower girls. They would have pretty explosive back and forth arguments. One week my dad would be living in the house and then the next month he would be out and he'd be gone for like two months as a result of the conflict in the house. Not feeling like there was enough parental supervision. Even though my brothers were very good about taking care of us. They were like 17 year old boys living in the late 1990s. So they had a lot of really problematic traits that kind of got passed down to my sister and I in some ways that's when the behavioral problem started up. Was probably around 10 years old. When I say I was having behavioral problems, it was like if I was told no at a store I would have a three hour meltdown. I think a lot of where that stemmed from was my parents not knowing that I'm very likely neurodivergent. It would sometimes be like if a sensory experience was too overwhelming. That was also interacting with having to go to, like, a private school and wear uniforms. And the kids there were particularly mean compared to the ones in the public school system. So I was just very unhappy there. And as a result, was in a lot of therapy. I saw a psychiatrist. I was medicated on, like, three different meds by the time I was 10. Unfortunately, it made me have larger outbursts, made me a lot angrier. They also were like, my child has problems. Let me just try to fix it. That's what you're supposed to do as a parent. But it's a little misguided because if you look at the environment at the time, it would make a lot of sense why I was having behavioral outbursts.

Max's Dad (10:32)

I was a child of a functional alcoholic, but definitely not emotionally functional. My father, he went to work every day, and he tried, but he just didn't have the capacity sometimes to be a loving father. When I grew up, I said, I will never be like that. I got sober when I was 27. I met Max's mom when I was 30. We got married after about dating a year. I thought I was really all together with my sobriety. I had no capacity to express myself. I couldn't be okay in my own shoes. I couldn't be myself. If things were going good, it made me uncomfortable, and I would literally create a problem that would turn into a disaster so I could be comfortable. I was often depressed. I never relapsed. But there was lots and lots of yelling in the house. Max saw a lot of angry parents, a lot of slamming of doors, people stomping out, people leaving, people saying, I'm not coming back. It was super, super chaotic, especially for somebody that young. I know it was really hard for. I just did not have the capacity to do anything differently. I did best when I was at work, but my job was really stressful too. I worked in the gas department. You work with a commodity that's inherently dangerous, and you get used to it and you make jokes about it just because it is scary. As a construction worker, you're not supposed to be scared. So I developed a whole different Persona. I decided, well, I'm just going to work super hard and I'll provide for my family, and I'll be 1950s working dad. I'm going to come home, play with my Kids. When she was a toddler, she would vary between being upset and very happy. And a lot of times she seemed like she was uncomfortable in her own skin. But she was really fun. She liked to explore. She was very much into nature and bugs and animals and very compassionate. I'm the type of person that I'll go all through the house chasing a spider so I can put it outside. And she was the same way. She liked to play. Her big brothers would roughhouse with her, ages 3, 4, 5, 6. She was kind of like a daddy's girl and it was just really nice. And then as she got older, there was just so many things going on in her house. She, like myself, sort of became the disruptor instead of saying, I don't think things are going well and I'd like to discuss them. As a child, you do other things. You act different ways to like say, I need some help. But unfortunately I wasn't in a place to really offer the kind of help or pay attention to her. And so when she got older, it got a little more strained and a little harder.

Max (13:43)

They started the process of divorcing for the second time when I was 13, and I don't think it ended until I was 15 or 16. It was a really tumultuous custody battle that definitely bled over into like our day to day life. My mom pitted us against my dad and vice versa. My mom would tell us really nasty things about him trying to turn us. And then my dad did the same thing with my mom. So we were like squarely in the middle of that divorce. I was actually really close to my dad up until that time. That time period also was right around the time where my mom decided that since my two brothers were out of the house, she was going to take my sister and I and my move up to the Tahoe area. We were extremely fortunate to be living out there as kids. Unfortunately, there was a lot of stuff, I think, working in the background that my sister and I weren't seeing at the time. My mom was working graveyard shifts in Truckee, so she was having to do that and then come home and try to be a parent while my dad was working full time staying in Davis. And we would drive the two and a half hours every other weekend to spend a weekend with my dad because that was part of the custody agreement that they had reached. So a lot of like split holidays, a lot of split summertime. And at that time I had come off of the medication that I had been prescribed. That's around the time that my mom started relapsing, she struggled with substance abuse her whole life. She's been sober for a long time now. As much as her stuff impacted me, I also just want to acknowledge her experience and where she's coming from. We then moved from Tahoe to an even smaller town that had 250 people in it. The only things that were there were a post office, a park and a bar. I've now been moved twice within two or three years, responding to an environment that is not at all responding to me. These behaviors are being modeled for me also, where I'm like, okay, well, I guess drinking is a reasonable coping skill. The behavioral problems were increasing. I would steal alcohol from a nearby liquor store, steal her cigarettes, convince people who were older than me to like get these things for me. Because I knew that that was something that I could do. I had started cutting at that time. I was bulimic. So it was all ramping up really intensely. My dad was watching this happen from the background and being like, this is getting really bad. What ended up happening was that the judge ruled that my dad would get full custody. I don't know how soon after that ruling was made. He literally drove the two and a half hours up, came to the door and was like, get your things, we're leaving now. And took us that day. I was homeschooled for maybe half of the year when I was living in the mountains. And that was also something that my dad really didn't like because he was like, if you are already naturally socially isolating, you need to be in school so that you can be around other people. He enrolled me in Holmes Junior High. What's funny is that the school counselor there paired me up with the other alternative kid. She thought she was doing me a favor. She was like, oh, you two are kind of weirdos. You guys will be perfect for each other. That was probably one of the worst decisions they ever could have made because we were both very rebellious and very strong willed individuals. And what's funny is that this person's dad also happened to be one of my dad's very close friends. We were quite a pair. She ended up introducing me to my friend group. I had the innate understanding that, like, I could essentially extract what I wanted from older men by being nice to them. So it was very easy for me to get things and then bring them to my friends. Eventually I started skipping school. My dad would travel for work, so he'd be gone like five days out of the week sometimes. So there's nobody to tell you what to do or to watch out for you. So of course I'm going to go run off and do whatever I want. My sister had someone who would take her to all of her appointments, so we had like a quasi babysitter who would come check on us. And then my dad's best friend lived down the street and he would sometimes come and check on us. We had free rain a lot of the time and even when my dad was there, he and I would get in so many arguments that I almost don't even remember him being there. In my mind it was like he either wasn't there or we were fighting. What would you fight about? Anything, but especially my appearance and my behavior because I was dressed pretty. Alternatively, at that point I'm like a barely 14 year old running around in a schoolgirl miniskirt, combat boots, a teeny tiny little tight shirt, and like cat ears. The makeup was a really big thing, the hair. For some reason he just really harped on that it was hard for me to take him seriously because he had told me so many stories about what he had done in his youth. At that point was when I started running away. Also spend time out of the home for multiple days at a time. There were a few times where my dad had to call the police to like get me home because he didn't know where I was and I wouldn't respond to him. He was able to find me pretty quickly the couple times I had run away. But he also knows that you learn from your mistakes, quote unquote. He's seeing all of this happening and assuming that the absolute worst outcome is going to come for me because he saw what it did to his life. And he's also watching what's happening to my mom's life. He's looking at a kid who is struggling and he didn't even know how to get himself help. How in the world is he supposed to help me in that situation?

Max (30:26)

I was up late one night on Yahoo. Instant messenger talking to my ex. I heard my dad get up and I thought that he was going to work. Our computer at the time was in the living room. So I told my ex, be right back. Turned off the computer and like, dipped into my room, waiting for my dad to leave. But I was noticing instead of him leaving around 5, it was a little closer to like 2:33 in the morning. That was my only indication where I was like, that's strange. So I just pretended to be asleep. And then it got weirder when he came and opened my door and was calling my name. So I pretended to wake up. I don't remember if they were like right behind him or if they were in the room already, but I just remember my dad telling me, like, hey, there's two people here who are going to take you somewhere. You need to listen to them and go with them. He left. My thought about it was always, you had the audacity to come into my room, tell me to go with these people, and then you flee. That to me was very insulting. So now, knowing that he wasn't even supposed to say that really changes how I view that entire situation. The people who transported me was one man, one woman. I don't remember really anything about them at all other than that there was some significant height difference between the two of them. They basically told me bring a pair of clothes because I was in, like, my pajamas. I think they told me the only thing I could bring was a notebook and a pen. And I was like, well, what about my phone? And they're like, oh, you won't need that. I just had to, like, get in the car and go. I was scared. I had no idea where I was going. I didn't know why I couldn't talk to people. I'm just going to do what these adults tell me to do. You know, it's one thing for me to rebel against my own parents, but then once it gets into, like, strangers, there's too much unpredictability. I'm also the type of person, or I was, at least at that point where I was like, maybe if I put my head down and get through it, it'll be over and it will be easier for me. I was at least able to put together this is happening probably as a result of my behavior previously. So if I show that I can be like this, quote, unquote, good, well behaved kid, then maybe I will receive a lesser version of whatever I'm about to experience or like that behavior will essentially prove that I'm, quote, good enough to stay home. It's such a sharp interruption to your life. Your life is never the same after that one singular moment. It really changes everything, or at least it did for me. The level of trauma and like PTSD I have around kidnapping and home invasions is not irrational because it's based in something, but it is an unreasonable level of fear that I have around a need for security in my own home. I have weapons by my bed because if that ever happens to me again, there is someone coming into my home with ill intent and I am going to be like, as ready as I can for that. We drove all the way from Davis, California up to Redmond, Oregon, Basically straight shot, probably with taking the break that we did, it's gotta be at least 10 hours. We made one stop in Klamath Falls at a stationery shop. And they told me, don't try anything, don't try to run away, don't try to tell people that you've been kidnapped because we have paper showing that we're allowed to do this. Put it in my mind before I even got out of the car that they had total control of the situation and that anything that I could or would do would not make a difference. And did you believe them? Absolutely, because my dad had given me to them, essentially.

Max (34:31)

We pulled up, it was in the middle of nowhere. It was just a tiny highway, this weird building with a bunch of cars parked in front of it. And then everything else was desolate, very flat, had a lot of sage and a lot of juniper. Those were like the only two things that really grew out there. It was end of August, beginning of September. If I'm not mistaken. That was probably the perfect time to be out there because it was after it was super hot and right before it was super cold. The transporters took me into the building which was their intake office. I don't even know if this office was used for anything other than doing like the handoff between the transporters and the staff members and then doing this precursory, probably just cover your ass type of medical checks so that they don't get sued for something later. There were four other adults Maybe three. One of them was supposedly a physician who gave me, like, a very brief physical. Height, weight, blood pressure, check the joints, reflexes kind of thing. The only thing that they made me do that felt weird to me even at the time, was that the doctor actually made me, like, bend over in front of him so that he could put his finger. Finger on my spine. And then as I stood up, he traced it for, like, scoliosis. I was like, bro, can you not touch me like that? He said to me, oh, you have a slight case of scoliosis, but nothing worth mentioning. And it made me really irritated because then why would you bother saying that? What does that then mean for, like, the experience that I'm about to have? That statement thematically defined my experience with adults in the program where I was just like, you are ragingly incompetent, and I can't even tell you that to your face or I'll get in trouble. They made me take off any extra makeup that I had. They made me brush all the product out of my hair. They did not give me a shower. They're like, use these wet wipes to take off your makeup. After that, they put me in the back of one of those big SUV type cars. They blindfolded me and drove me, I don't know how long down dirt roads until we got where we were going, which was literally the middle of nowhere. Blindfolding us was to, like, make sure that we didn't know the route out. Cause they were so scared of us running away. When I initially stepped out of the van, I think I was teetering on delirious because all my sleep had been in the car. You get out of the car, you're in the middle of nowhere. There's nobody else in sight besides the people that you're gonna be with for the next however long of your life. There was kind of a fire pit in the middle of the camp. Off to one side. They segregated by sex. All the girls were together in one area, and then all the boys were together in another area. And if the boys walked past the girls camp, or vice versa, the staff members would instruct everyone to stand up, get in a line, and turn and face away from the opposite sex so that you couldn't even see them walking past you. I remember the staff being a lot more involved than the students were in terms of introducing us to what we were having to do. Because they didn't want the students to, like, whisper too much in my ear about stuff. We had uniforms. It was a neon orange short sleeve Shirt, neon orange, yellow and green camo pants. I remember very specifically being told, if you try to run away, you will die out here because nobody's going to be able to find you if you take off your orange clothing. All that we had were our long johns underneath and that blended in perfectly. I keep thinking of this teenage girl. I remember seeing her on runaway watch and being like, I definitely don't want to do that. Because they had taken a lot of her clothes and they took her shoes and she was only allowed to sit in her sleeping bag. That was all she was allowed to do and like use the restroom. We would get brand new hiking boots. When we would arrive, we didn't ever have a chance to break them in. In the process of breaking mine in, my left pinky toe got completely mangled to the point where it's permanently disfigured now. And they were telling me like, oh, it's just a blister, don't worry about it, we'll like wrap it up. And then they wrapped it up. It didn't do anything. It kept popping re blistering and there was no medical care at all. Every time I look at my feet, I'm like, there's the wilderness. Everything that you needed, you would carry with you. So you carried all of your water, all of your food, you carried all of the group supplies. By the time you loaded your pack up, you're looking at between like 60 and 80 pounds. We got the once a week shower where we got the gallon of cold water and like super watered down Bronner's. All we had was the gallon. That was it. So it was like you either washed your hair or your body. I do not remember how we brushed our hair or our teeth. I hadn't thought about it until I talked to somebody who went to another program and said that they had to brush their teeth using like a mixture of water and dirt because at least the dirt was abrasive and it would get the plaque off your teeth. We had food drops. A van would come out weekly and give you your allotted food for the week. And if you didn't ration that correctly, you basically just had to wait until the next food drop. And there weren't any instructions about how to ration your food either. In addition to the food drops, a lot of stuff around our food was controlled. We were only able to use three spices per meal. So we had to choose which little spice baggie we wanted to pull from. And that was very heavily monitored. It was very strange if we couldn't bow drill fire. Not only did we not get fire, we didn't get hot food. Also, you had to finish what you made. They wouldn't let you waste food. I don't remember what would happen if you did, but it was made to be like a very big deal. So if you made something that you didn't like, you were forced to eat it. There was one time where I tried to make something that they called breakfast farina. It was usually made sweet, and I was thinking, like, maybe I'll try it Savory. I think I put onion and something else in there, and it was absolutely disgusting because the onion wasn't cooked all the way. I could not even finish it. And I remember having to like, pull the onions out and like, smush them them into the dirt as I was eating so that I could get through my food so that I wouldn't be punished for not finishing it. There was definitely a scarcity mindset that was impinged upon you throughout these experiences. I'm not really sure what the purpose of that was other than establishing further control. Something that I've realized is very ironic about this whole process is increasing the scarcity around food is the opposite of what you're supposed to do when someone has an eating disorder, which was one of the reasons I was sent there. So it actually exacerbated that food scarcity issue. What was awful to see was that the staff always got hot food. The staff could make fire anytime they wanted. In terms of setting everything up, we had one 4x6 tarp per person. That tarp is what we use to essentially create a. A frame off of a tree. And we would have to learn all these different knots to like, secure everything. And we had to, like, run drills in the morning where we had to put all of our stuff in a very certain way, do all these things, and then get into a specific position. Standing order. The staff would literally have a stopwatch and time us. And so if we didn't get it within the time, we had to undo it. Wall timed, redo it. Wall timed. And the process would repeat as many times as it took for us to get it right. Even when we were doing it, I was like, this is just wasting our time. It was very clear to me that it did not have a purpose other than like a system of power and control over us. It was definitely based off of a military drill of some sort. Of we would leave right after sunup for our big long hikes. No less than 10 miles a day. I think we netted about 30 to 35 miles in a weekend. Some of the things we ended up doing the most of was we had some workbooks we would work out of. We were only allowed to work up to a certain point in the workbook. We weren't allowed to have more advanced skills building a sundial or, like, learning how to tell direction from shadows. I was like, why can't we learn this? And he was like, well, we don't want you to use that to run away. And this guy who was our teacher, his name was Owl, presumably because he's the wise one coming out with knowledge. There were a lot of little infractions that we could get in trouble for, and the consequences ended up eating up a lot of time. So I think that they were looking for things that we would do wrong. One of their big things was water is life. We can't waste water. Which I absolutely agree with that sentiment. But what it would end up presenting as was if you so much as, like, spilled a little bit of water, you had to come up with a song and interpretive dance that was apologizing to the water for wasting it. There was one girl, I don't remember what she and I did, but we got in a lot of trouble. One time the staff got really upset with us, and they were like, you guys need to perform an entire song. So, like, whatever song you happen to know, you have to go from beginning to end with interpretive dance. We ended up doing a Taking Back Sunday song. There was that line about gun to my head. They were like, well, that's awfully violent. The perception was that I'm depressed because I'm listening to this music. And because I'm listening to this music, then I'm going to go ahead and kill myself. I cannot even tell you how many different iterations of that I was told throughout the programs. The music was blamed for my problems.

Max (49:03)

Honestly, it was dealing with that staff member, Monsoon. She was one of the staff leads. She was a little bit older than the other folks who worked there and she definitely had more of like a iron grip type of approach to things. My recollection is that she made my life really difficult for no reason. She was looking through one of my journals that I was writing and I was wondering what it would be like to fall off the edge of a cliff, looking down the edge of a cliff, being like, hmm, wonder about that. She read this and took it as me wanting to kill myself. So she put me on suicide watch for like 10 days. She monitored anything that I wrote. She like listened really closely to anything that I said. And we had this really stupid check in system where she would be like, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you want to kill yourself right now? She would ask me that multiple times throughout the day in front of everybody else. And I'm like, I never wanted to kill myself in the first place, but now I'm at a fucking 10 monsoon. But you can't say that. That was 10 days of that. And then we had a phrase. You always want to start a hike when you're a little bit cold. Because if you start when you're warm, by the time you're actually moving, you're going to be really hot. I was really cold one morning and I was like, I don't want to start cold. So I'm going to like keep my little long johns on under my pants. I started getting really, really hot where I knew, for me, that it was not safe. I've always overheated. I get heat stroke really easily. We're like, halfway through our hike in the middle of nowhere. There's literally no roads around us. Not even dirt roads were on hiking trails. I was like, I need to stop and take these off. And she told me, we're not stopping, and we're, like, actively walking as we're having this argument. She said, you should have started cold, like I told you. And I was like, nope. And then I literally just stopped. I went wandering out into the woods. Because the other two staff members were male staff members. I didn't want to, like, take my clothes off in front of them. I think she gave up on that one. Thankfully, they didn't restrain me or anything like that. Later on, each person would go on what they called a solo, where you were separated from the camp. I think I was on mine for seven days. It was always towards the end of when you were staying. So I think at that point, they knew that through this whole process, you were, like, worn down enough to not want to run away. You were told, go far enough away from the camp so that you guys can't see each other. But if you needed help, you could access it. You could go a long, long way off and still be able to see people. I think I spent the first four days of it just crying. And when I came back, everybody noted how loudly I was wailing while I was gone. But nobody comes out to check on you. They just let you experience that because they think that it's your processing, whatever, and you need to be on your own while you're dealing with that, which is a really wonderful way to, like, destroy someone's attachment style or ability to, like, trust that adults will take care of you emotionally in any way. So you're starting to develop this pattern of chronic emotional abuse and neglect that then is persistent, at least for me, throughout the next, like, 13 to 15 months when I'm in the rest of the programs, that's pushing close to a year and a half of this chronic issue, in addition to everything that had happened in the past before that. So if there was any chance of rectifying the problems that had started to occur in childhood through early adolescence, that ability was essentially destroyed. They did, like, a modified traditional ceremony of some sort when you came back from your solo, because you were supposed to transform in that time period. You'd make this massive bonfire, and there'd be, like, Smoke signals. There was all this chanting that people would do, and you were, like, presented with your new name. And your new name was based out of a typical native naming process. I don't remember what mine was. The staff would assign it to you. You didn't get to pick, but that was also how you knew who had been in the program for a certain amount of time. If they weren't going by their legal name, you knew that they had been through their solo. And then it was like, you also were a little bit closer to, like, staff in that way. You didn't know staff's names because they had these weird monikers. And then you also had those weird monikers. So it also kind of served to, like, separate you from the rest of the group in preparation for you then leaving the program. Because very shortly after you would do your solo, you would usually leave, which.

Max (58:13)

You find out that you're going to Mount Bachelor via letter. How long after that do you think it is before they actually took you? And who took you? I think it was a couple days. I remember being very distraught, but for a short period of time, they did not let me shower. I must have been so filthy. When my dad picked me up, my dad actually took me me from the sagewalk office and drove me from redmond to prineville, probably about an hour and a half or so. They encourage you to take them the same day because if you stop at a hotel, the kid might run away. He brought my younger sister with him, who would have been 12, maybe 13 at the time. I do remember the drive pretty well. I'm sure I was mad at my dad. I was also happy to see them, though, because I was separated from them for a long time. We stopped at a grocery store, and I remember there was always a huge conversation before someone leaves wilderness of, like, since you've been out here so long and you haven't had xyz, make sure that you eat in a very specific way so that you're not getting sick after. I remember picking everything at the grocery store, like, super carefully. That was really exciting for me. I think at that time, I was trying to formulate how I was going to convince my dad not to keep me in the program and bring me home. I was on my best behavior, telling him all of the things that I learned, like, through this process. If he sees that I'm good enough now, maybe I can go home. Then he pulled into the program, into the driveway. There was this little, like, intake office on the lower part of campus, and I just refused to get out of the car. He went and got the staff from the intake office. They came out and told me that I needed to get out of the car. And they were very nice and very convincing because there were two authority figures who were strangers to me. It's when the strangers in authority come in where I get really, like, compliant. And so I got out of the car, and I remember my sister was sitting in the backseat behind me the whole time. So she, like, witnessed this entire exchange. And then the staff took me into the intake office. When I got there, it was fully daytime. And by the time the staff had assigned me to two students to show me around campus and take me to, like, the dorm that I was staying in, it was dinner time.