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- [00:01]
Tiffany Reese
If you love Something Was Wrong and want to help support the show and listen ad free, become a community contributor on Apple Podcasts or purchase a sticker from our sticker shop@broken cyclemedia.com thank you so much. Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences and includes topics that may be upsetting this season we'll be discussing friendship, betrayal, religious abuse, stalking, sex, sexual assault and other serious topics, so please listen with care. Some names have been changed for safety or anonymity purposes. The podcast and any linked materials should not be misconstrued as a substitution for legal or medical advice. Sources and resources can be found in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. This season on Something Was Wrong, we're diving into a topic that's often overlooked, yet many can relate Friendship Betrayal in the media and in society at large, betrayal is often explored through the lens of romantic relationships. But the devastation caused by betrayal within a close friendship can be equally impactful, yet far too often overlooked. While romantic heartbreak is publicly acknowledged and socially validated, the pain of being betrayed by a trusted friend is frequently minimized, dismissed and misunderstood. Friendship betrayal happens when someone once considered safe and deeply trusted violates the foundation the relationship was built upon. And as survivors and experts will share throughout this season, the damage can reach far beyond hurt feelings. Friendship betrayal can fracture a person's sense of identity or belonging and emotional safety in ways that are uniquely isolating. Romantic breakups often come with community support and friendship based rituals for grieving. When romantic relationships end, friends often rally around one another, offering comfort, validation and a path of healing. Meanwhile, friendship based trauma exists with more quiet isolation. Yet friendships are often the relationships that shape us most intimately, their voluntary bonds created through mutual trust, shared history, jokes, vulnerability and acceptance. Friends become the family we choose. In a 2026 article by the Cut discussing the recent reality TV show Summer House Friendship Betrayal, Scandal psychologist Dr. Rebecca Schwartz Mehta discusses the importance of friendships. She says, quote, these end up being really intimate relationships, sometimes even more intimate emotionally than our romantic relationships. It's because of this intimacy that feeling played can be so disorienting and upsetting. Not only does a friend's betrayal make us reconsider the friendship, it makes us reconsider ourselves. It can make us question our judgment. How did I let this person in? End quote. She goes on to say, quote, it's also hard to heal when we don't even have the language to describe the hurt when we say breakup. That's usually about romantic relationships. Estrangement tends to mean family stuff. In some ways. We expect more conflict from romantic and family relationships, which might make that conflict easier to talk about and seek support for when it happens. End quote According to the same CUT article, psychologist Marissa G. Franco hypothesizes, quote, people are less likely to talk through things with their friends than they might do with a romantic partner, so there's less closure, she explains. Franco notes that this can lead to something called ambiguous loss, where the person is physically absent but often in your thoughts. End quote when trust is broken in a friendship, the impact can be destabilizing. Survivors frequently describe withdrawing from others, questioning their own judgment, struggling to trust again, and losing confidence in their sense of social safety. This season we'll explore the hidden trauma of friendship betrayal, the lasting emotional wounds it leaves behind, the complex grief it can create, and the resilience required to heal from being harmed by someone who once felt like a trusted confidant. Friendship betrayal becomes even more complex when it intersects with faith. Religious communities are often built upon values of trust, service, accountability, and moral leadership. Congregants are encouraged to be vulnerable with spiritual leaders, to seek guidance from them and to trust. Those in positions of ministry are acting as faithful stewards of that responsibility. When that trust is violated, the damage can extend far beyond the loss of a friendship. Researchers sometimes refer to this as spiritual or religious betrayal, a rupture that occurs when a person entrusted with religious authority abuses that position or causes harm. In these situations, survivors are often forced to grapple not only with the loss of a relationship but with questions about faith, community, identity, and belonging to for many people, pastors, missionaries, ministry leaders, and faith mentors occupy a uniquely trusted role. They are often viewed not only as friends or advisors, but as representatives of deeply held beliefs and values. When harm comes from someone in that position, it can create layers of trauma that are difficult to untangle. In Chapter one, we meet Marie, a faithful woman with deep ties to her church community who never imagined the betrayal she would navigate when she first met her former pastor, Sergio. He was her husband at the time's close friend as well as her pastor at the megachurch Thomas Road. In Marie's case, the betrayal wasn't confined to a friendship it unfolded within a faith community she loved and trusted, not only a close friend and her former husband's confidant, but a pastor, missionary, and spiritual leader entrusted with serving others. The betrayal she experienced challenged her understanding of trust on multiple levels. It forced her to confront the painful reality that someone who publicly embodied faith, service, and moral authority could privately cause profound harm. And, as Marie would soon discover the wounds left by betrayal are often deepest when they come from someone who claimed to be acting in the service of God. Thomas Road Baptist Church was founded in 1956 by Jerry Falwell Sr. The congregation started as a smaller one, consisting of only 35 members. It rapidly grew in the 1960s and 70s and is now considered a megachurch, ministering to a congregation of about 24,000. Falwell Sr. Went on to found Liberty Christian University in 1971 as a private university grounded in evangelical beliefs. Both are located in Lynchburg, Virginia, a city of nearly 80,000 residents. Considering their size, both college and church have a vast impact on Lynchburg and its residents. Sergio's leadership role at Thomas Road Baptist Church and presence at Liberty University surely afforded him even more trust and confidence from his community members. And Marie was no different. That's why the betrayal she experienced at his hands left her changed forever. I'm Tiffany Reiss and this is Something was wrong.
- [08:21]
Marie
I'm Marie. I finished my degree in psychology as a single mom. I have extensive work experience in the mental health field. Now I am doing a lot of things on my own which are more related to advocacy and helping other women. And I have two awesome kids. My most important role in this life Originally I was born in Hartford, Connecticut and moved to Long island when I was a child. We lived on top of a liquor store. My grandparents owned it and they built an apartment above the store for my parents and us. My biological parents had four kids within three years. That, that had to be stressful. They didn't have much money. I remember all of us kids and my mom going down when I was really little into the store and then going back up and we would all get a drink. My biological mom was an alcoholic, so that could not have been helpful. But from what I've heard, the alcoholism is one of the things that led to us being removed from the home. I think I was around five years old. We were taken out of our home by social services, put into foster homes. Me and my twin brother stayed together in foster care. The loss of foster child experiences is incredible because people might consider, oh, they lost their parents because they were separated, but it's so much more than that. We lost our extended family, our toys, our way of living. Whether it was normal or not doesn't matter. We lost family gatherings and traditions. There were other things that also contributed to the feelings of powerlessness, experiencing sexual abuse in a foster home. And it wasn't just a one time instance. It was constant and verbal, emotional, physical abuse. In foster homes, I definitely learned I have no power and survival for me was just immediately giving in to people before they harmed me. It conditions a child to just grow up with these really false beliefs about themselves and the world. Children internalize everything. They carry that belief until they recognize that it's a false belief. I was 7 when I was adopted. My adoptive parents took us in. Then they got my older brothers and took them in. Gary's the oldest, then Brendan, then me and my twin brother. They adopted all four of us and then had three more children of their own. Every time they were expecting another child, I was just praying it was a girl and every time it was a boy. So I ended up with six brothers. So I'm kind of in the middle.
- [11:24]
Brendan
Hi, my name is Brendan. Marie as a kid she's kind of goofy. She was very ambitious. She did a lot. She had a large friend group. She played flute. She did cheerleading for a few years. She played volleyball. Loved a good party, but wasn't like a party girl. It did do the typical sort of teenage sneaking around once in a while when she got older. Nothing drastic or anything. Always fairly level headed. Pretty sure she was in the who's who of high school students at one point. I think she was academically pretty good as well. She always liked having fun, but was also serious when she needed to be. Marie is very independent and self sufficient. She's been raising two kids on her own for the better part of a decade and a half. She is extremely loyal as a person, very friendly and outgoing. She does love hosting. She used to cook just massive amounts of food for all of her then husband's friends whenever they would come over. But she was always happy and willing to do that. She's also fiercely protective. She loves her kids more than anything and will do anything to protect them.
- [12:43]
Tiffany Reese
And how would you describe her as a mom?
- [12:45]
Brendan
She's always been able to sort of find that balance, which is very hard to do between being too lax and too harsh. She definitely found a happy medium. She knew what worked for her kids and wasn't pushing some other way of parenting. She was naturally gifted at it, I would say, which not everyone is. They are also her best friends.
- [13:06]
Marie
I came to Lynchburg, Virginia in 2000 to go to Liberty University. My two older brothers were already attending Liberty. My parents are religious, but I wouldn't describe it as very relational. I didn't have much freedom to make my own decisions. I believed that I had to go to college in even though I really didn't know what I wanted to do or study. And I grew up in a Christian home, so it felt like we had to go to Christian college. So I decided to go there. I visited my oldest brother at Liberty when he had been there, and I liked it and it's a beautiful area. Then I decided to study psychology, but I didn't know what I really wanted to do.
- [13:56]
Tiffany Reese
How would you describe your experience overall and what your experience of the culture was?
- [14:01]
Marie
It was okay. The culture at Liberty was pretty happy and the people were really nice. The professors were nice. I had good experiences with other students and my roommates. I had two roommates. One was from Arkansas and one was from Tennessee. So imagine the New Yorker coming in. It was such a great experience because I got to learn about the South. The only issues I had was it was very strict. There was a dress code. I had to wear dresses and skirts to class every day. That was really annoying. And then what made it even more frustrating was they started doing construction. So to have to walk through construction sites and mud in this type of clothing was annoying. I would borrow my roommate's clothes, they would borrow mine because we only have so many skirts and dresses. The problem is they were a lot shorter than I was. So then I'd get written up for the dress code because standing, you had to put your arms down and the skirt or dress had to reach down to your fingertips. That was the standard. I would get written up pretty often for stupid stuff. We would have to clean our rooms. We had what they call convocation Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. All of the students had to attend this. And it was basically like a church service. Jerry Sr. Jerry Falwell, the founder of Liberty and Thomas Road, would be at that convocation at least once a week. And they would have other speakers. We would leave, go to the convocation, but the RAs would stay back and check everybody's room to make sure it was clean according to their specific standard. I had the garbage that week. We left, went to convocation, came back and had a write up because there was a soda can, one empty can of soda in the garbage. I had cleaned, left. But my roommate decided to have a drink of Coke and threw the can in the garbage. They ran a very tight ship. You had to sign out to leave for the weekend. When you signed out, it was like time you were leaving, time you were getting back. You had to provide the information of the adult or where we were going to be and their contact information.
- [16:25]
Tiffany Reese
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- [19:10]
Marie
I met my ex husband in 2002. I was attending Liberty University at the time. I had a friend that lived in my dorm that was Hispanic in and I was taking a Spanish class and I'd been interested in learning Spanish and I had asked her to teach me some Spanish. So she was teaching me and she told me that I should start attending her church or come to church with her, which was a Spanish church. She said if you're submerged in the language, hearing it in a place like a church every Sunday, you would learn faster, which is true. So I I started attending with her and the man that translated ended up being my husband. So I met him in church. He was really good looking and athletic. I found out that he had played baseball in the minor leagues. He's not super charismatic, but he presented to be successful and godly and have great character and a leader. I didn't know at the time that he was actually dating someone. I found that out after we were already engaged. But it was a very fast relationship. He put a lot of pressure on me. He wanted to start dating and I was very unsure. I was 20 at the time and he was 31.
- [20:39]
Tiffany Reese
So definitely in different places of your life.
- [20:42]
Marie
Very different at that time I was very dependent. I was very sheltered when it came to the real world. I had not learned life skills. I had no confidence at the time. I didn't recognize that I was anxious. But looking back I realize now that I didn't know how I was going to survive on my own. I was in college and that helped because I I had living arrangements but it just scared me what I was going to do outside of college once I finished. He was very controlling. Looking back, it goes back to my self worth, how I viewed myself back then. I was convinced that he was more responsible with money, especially because of his age and his leadership in the church. I needed to trust him and I should be dependent on him. His idea was for me to deposit my checks from work into his bank account and then he would write the check for my rent and for whatever I owed for each utility. At first I didn't fight it at all because I'm like he knows more than I do. What I believed about myself is that I wasn't smart enough or good enough I needed him to do these things for me. If he tells me to do something or suggests things to me, I, considering his age, would do it. Within six months, we were engaged. My ex husband gave me it's now or never because I was telling him, I need to wait, I want to go slowly. So that put me in a position like, I have to choose. Yes. Because I might be missing out on something. When we were engaged, that's when I started to recognize the serious control. By that time I just thought, well, I can't back out now. And I didn't think that my parents would support me because he was a Christian and they've already spent money on the wedding. I remember thinking, well, this is just the way it is. No good decisions can come out of that thought. But a lot of the decisions I made in early adulthood were based on that belief. When I got married, my ex husband's control got worse. My marriage was for me, pretty miserable. But there were things that I had in my life that gave me joy and that was the community I was a part of, the church that we went to and the people that we connected with and became friends with, and then even more so, my children. Being a mom was the absolute best thing. And I know it's stressful being a mother, but I absolutely loved it. And so that allowed me to enjoy life during those miserable years. We were attending a church and my ex husband decided that we were going to leave that church. My ex husband made every decision and I was just supposed to follow. He decided to attend Thomas Road Baptist Church and there was a Spanish ministry. This was in 2007, 2008. The first day we went, my ex husband and the leader of this Spanish Sunday school class, Sergio, hit it off right away. They became instant friends. That's how we met Sergio and his wife.
- [24:12]
Tiffany Reese
What was Sergio's exact position within the leadership to your understanding?
- [24:19]
Marie
He was the main leader of that Sunday school class. He was still working at Liberty University. If I remember correctly, he was working in financial aid.
- [24:31]
Tiffany Reese
What was your overall impression of Sergio and his personality at that time?
- [24:36]
Marie
When I first met him, my impression was that he was very charismatic, always happy. He was really good at talking to people. He was funny, he would make jokes and he seemed like he had really good character. I also had the impression that he was a really good husband and a really good father. He adored his wife. The way he would celebrate her publicly, you know, for her birthday and on social media. I had the impression that he was very invested in people and really cared about People. The four of us became very, very close. But the friendship was really based off of my ex husband and Sergio. They were the friends, and then they would hang out a lot and do things. My ex husband would tell me that they had to go plan something or have a meeting together. All four of us also would hang out. I didn't really develop a strong relationship with Sergio's wife. Soon after meeting him, they had invited us to their house for dinner. His wife was like, in the kitchen or something. And he was telling me that his wife really likes me and she really wants to be good friends with me and was just telling me all these amazing things that his wife said about me. And I remember being surprised because at that point, we had known them for like, maybe a couple months, and she didn't seem to want to hang out or anything. It felt so out of alignment with my experience with her. I just had a hard time connecting with her. But I believed him because I didn't even consider that he could be making that up. My ex husband and Sergio worked together, and they were able to grow the congregation. The number of people that attended the church, Thomas Road, allowed them to use the Pate Chapel, which is the chapel right next to the main sanctuary, and start an actual Spanish church. So my ex husband was part of that process in building the congregation. And that's when Sergio became a pastor and he was able to eventually quit his job at Liberty. I think it had only been two years. Their relationship did get closer and closer, but when he met Sergio, the control and abuse got much, much worse. And it got much worse really fast. After he met Sergio, he started taking pictures and videos of me. He had never done that before. He. He became very obsessive over those pictures and then, like, walk away, you know, and not actually have any form of intimacy. That was very strange to me. I never can remember a time where he wanted to take pictures of me or videos. And I don't understand how he went from that to suddenly meeting them. Right before my son was born, my ex husband had lost his job, that the company did a lot of layoffs. He couldn't find a job here, and so we had to move to Florida where there were more job possibilities. We put our stuff in storage, and he decided we would go to Florida, live with his brother in Orlando until he found a job. Then he found a temp to hire in Miami. So we lived in Miami with no furniture, just an air mattress. And then he purchased a sofa. The kids had no toys. We had a couple of pots and dishes that another woman that he had known in Miami had given to us and sheets that she had given to us. And he had sold one of the vehicles and insisted that he needed the vehicle to go to work and come back. I became what felt like a prisoner in my house while he was away all day. Mind you, My son was 1 and my daughter was 2 at this time. But we lived in an apartment that was really beautiful, and that was the blessing. It was on property that had a ginormous pond in a paved path that went along it that was a couple of miles, and there was a sand area. And so my kids, you know, especially at that age, that really satisfied them. He wasn't hired for that position after doing temporary work. So then he got another attempt to hire in Melbourne, Florida. That was a beautiful area. We moved into this beautiful house with no furniture, just an air mattress. He had excuses that I always believed, and I would challenge the excuses that he had for not getting our furniture. Then he got a job in Pennsylvania. And this was all within a span of a year. We moved to Pennsylvania in not a nice house, and I was even more restricted. We finally got our furniture, and that was nice, living in a house with furniture. But his control just got worse and worse. Each place was unfamiliar. Everything was taken from me. No vehicle, so I couldn't leave. It felt like imprisonment. But he had justifications for why it was always about money. He was making a good amount of money, and we were renting four properties that we owned in town, in Lynchburg. So there was no reason. Even when I would confront it, he would tell me people didn't pay their rent for our rental properties. By the time we reached Pennsylvania, our basic needs were not even met. Even food. I had to ask him to purchase groceries. He would allow me to spend only $50 every two weeks. It had to be when the kids were asleep at night, I put them to bed. And then he would give me the debit card because I had no access at this point to any credit cards, debit cards, cash, nothing. I could only use the debit card if he. He let me. And the moment I got to Walmart, he would be calling or texting, like, where are you? Why are you taking so long? I'm with the kids every day, all day. And he would leave at like 8 in the morning and come back at like 8 or 9, 10 o' clock at night, restricting every ounce of freedom. And then he would check the receipts. And if I went $1 over $50 or if I got lotion he would go off. So it would scare me to even try to provide for my kids because of his reaction when he would check the receipts. His reaction wasn't just anger towards me, but it was very degrading. I wasn't allowed to buy them toys, even for their birthdays. I never received gifts. Did he say why he never had an excuse for that? No. For Christmas we would go to my family's house and my parents would get us gifts and sometimes my brothers and sister in laws. So his reasoning would be, oh, they're going to get us gifts. I felt obligated to obey. And he would use that term too. He would say, don't ask questions, just obey. He treated me like a daughter. I felt incredibly trapped. My ex husband was raping me consistently. He never did that before. So that was another new behavior. My worth was just completely destroyed. I would start crying and say, you hurt me physically. I was in pain. And he would just walk away from me and be like, you're so emotional. Complete disregard. And every night was scary to go to bed. He slept in the living room. It made no sense. It was like I was just an object. I didn't feel safe. I felt like I was being attacked every night and not by a stranger, which made it worse because I had to live with this man. I had tried to leave a couple times before, but he would come find me. I would try to stay at a friend's house and he would harass them. I couldn't put other people through this anymore. I didn't have parents that would help. I didn't have any money. So even if I wanted to leave, I couldn't because I didn't even have access to money. There's no escape. And he will come find me. And I know he has an incredible support system. It took a lot of effort for me to get away.
- [33:42]
Tiffany Reese
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- [34:59]
Marie
There was a woman that actually called me while I was living in Pennsylvania and it was my ex husband's, his friend's wife. One of his good friends was a police officer. The four of us would hang out every so often. We'd have each other over for dinner when we were living in Lynchburg. I hadn't talked to her in a long time, but she happened to call me and wanted to check in. I said, actually I'm not doing okay. And I told her everything that was happening. She was like, you need to get out of that. She was like, I'm going to call you back. She had talked to her husband. He's saying you need to get out. So she is the one that helped me. I would not have been able to get out of this relationship without her. I could start crying just talking about what she did for me. A week or two after that phone call, my ex husband was planning to go to Lynchburg. And of course if he was going, I had to go. So me and my two kids were going. This woman planned to meet me at my house. She contacted the Domestic Violence Prevention Center. She let me know this is an option, but she let me make my own decision. I think that's a really huge part. I didn't have freedom in my home with my ex husband, but she gave me a sense of freedom in telling me there's this option that you have and I will help you if you want it. So it was the first time in a long time that I actually had a decision. I left everything except for my kids. I was 29 years old at the time and I had a much different vision of how I thought my life would be at 29 years old with now a 2 and a 3 year old. But I was also concerned for my children's safety. I decided to go to that shelter. When we went to Lynchburg, she met me. I only packed one small bag because I had to make my my ex husband believe I was just going for the weekend. She picked me up and I told My ex that we were going to hang out and she brought me to the Domestic Violence Prevention Center. She texted my ex husband Marie and the kids are not coming back. They are safe. They will go through the court system and you'll be able to get visitation and stuff like that. At the Domestic Violence Prevention Center I immediately got a protective order and resources that I needed, SNAP benefits. I was immediately able to at least have something legal for my protection and then immediate needs met. And that was the first time I could actually like buy food for my kids without being so limited. Even though I had SNAP benefits and it was a good amount on the card, I would still go to the store and that mindset was still there. The crazy thing is that you have to be out of the shelter at 8, 8:30 in the morning and then you can't come back until 3:30, 4:00. And during that time you have to be applying for jobs and stuff which really is not effective at all. Especially for me who had two very young children. Trying to go to the library where I can rent a computer for 30 minutes to an hour at a time while trying to entertain a two and three year old is crazy to think anyone could do that. But I'm so, so thankful for this woman that helped me because after getting me established in the ywca, she came every single day for an entire month, picked me up, brought me back to her house, let me use her car. She would watch my kids, I would go run errands, look for jobs, do whatever I needed to do. She would let me use her laptop. She's an angel. When I was in the YWCA shelter, the processing that I did was overwhelming. Without having his voice in my head every single day, I recognized the lies I had been told over and over and over again. I recognized the control. And eventually throughout the years that followed, I recognized the mindset that I had that led me into a relationship with my ex husband and led me to marry him. I was able to identify it was my whole belief system, my belief about myself, especially my self esteem and my confidence. Processing all that really helped. It was hard because I had to come to terms with my own responsibility. And there's a difference between fault and responsibility. When somebody abuses as me, that is not my fault. But I've learned to recognize the responsibility I have making better decisions and identifying my beliefs and identifying which ones are true and which ones aren't. Taking more control over what I want my life to be like and who I want relationships and friendships with. After living in the YWCA for one month. A friend allowed me to stay at her house for me and the kids to get established. And then just a couple months after separation, I moved back to Lynchburg because we owned houses there, and the cost of living was a lot cheaper than New York, where my family was. He had moved everything into a house that we owned, and he said, you can live there, no strings attached. That's where I decided to live with my kids. So he moves all of our stuff in, but when I come home after he moves it all in, I see his diploma on the wall, all of his stuff. Besides actually leaving him. My first real boundary with him was gathering all of his stuff, putting it outside at the curb, and saying, come and get your stuff. I would get it soon because I see that rain is in the forecast tonight. So he had to come and get it. A couple weekends later. He had the kids. I went out with a friend. I went to come home, and he was in the house. He wasn't supposed to be there. I see his car in the driveway of the home that the kids and I are living in. I realized he had my kids in my house. I decided not to go inside, not to even bother, because I knew it was going to be such a. A battle to get him out. So I went to a friend's house for the night, and the next morning, I had plans with my friend, but now I had no clothes. Then I decided he's not going to control my life still, even though I've separated and set boundaries. So I went home. While he was there, he kept trying to talk to me. I came in, he followed me around, and he was trying to persuade me that we shouldn't be separated. The holidays are coming up, and we don't want our families to know, so I should just come back with him and then leave after the holidays. And then he says that he'll sell all the houses and buy one big, nice house, as if a house is going to fix things. It really threw me off guard because I'm like, when have I ever shown any type of materialism? Like I was willing to live in a homeless shelter? So I. I was not engaging with him. Just kept walking around, getting my stuff, getting what I needed to get. Then he basically blocked me from leaving because I wouldn't agree with him. I finally pulled out my phone to call police, and then he let me leave. I called this friend, the angel, and told her what had happened. She's like, you need to call police. I didn't want him Arrested. He had my kids. I didn't want them to witness this or be part of it. And my friend's husband knew that. So he contacted my ex husband and was like, hey, you need to go to the jail, turn yourself in. You violate the protective order. So he spent one day in jail, but using the law and the legal process actually helped because he did finally end up obeying the protective order because he knew the consequences. He knew that I would maintain these boundaries. His image seems to be very important to him, and he has a good career, and that helped me in this situation. Because he doesn't want to lose his career, that would be a really horrible impact for him.
- [43:57]
Tiffany Reese
During this time that you're getting resettled in your new city and reestablishing your life, how are you bouncing back from that mentally?
- [44:09]
Marie
It was very challenging because of the chaos, getting out of that mindset. There was so much processing.
- [44:17]
Tiffany Reese
After you moved back to Lynchburg, you reconnected with Sergio and his wife. Can you walk us through how that took place?
- [44:25]
Marie
I had stayed with my kids in the YWCA shelter for one month. As soon as I moved out of the shelter, I was contacted by either Sergio or his wife. I forgot which one contacted me and how, but they invited me to their house. They had found out that I had separated and they wanted me to come over for dinner. They sounded very supportive, so I'm assuming they actually care because I was afraid to tell people based on what they would think, especially in the Christian environment. I went to their house. They told me that I should come back to the church. At the church, I have support, and I told them I just didn't feel like dealing with people who asked questions because my ex husband wouldn't be there with me. They persuaded me that I belong in that church because people know me and they want to support me. That's how I started attending again, because I believed them. He did let me know that he supported me being separated. At first he had mentioned reconciliation, but after a very short time, he was basically saying it's okay to get divorced, which actually really surprised me. But I already believed it was okay for me to get divorced. And then the second time they invited me for dinner, they were telling me that a woman that I was friends with that had been attending the church but wasn't attending anymore, she was going through separation with her husband. They used this time that I was at their house to tell me that I shouldn't convince her to get a divorce. Sergio's wife was telling me this, but Sergio was standing right next to her and it was weird. She was just telling me, we know how you are very negative toward marriage. Which is wild accusations because I'm not against marriage because of the abuse I experienced in my marriage. I had the right to be separated and divorced. But she was basically telling me how I am and it wasn't true. I was like, that's not what I'm doing. But I am telling her, stay away from him because he's cheating with another woman. He says, I'll stop cheating if you let me come back home. And that's not healthy in any way. That doesn't show any real commitment to her or to the marriage other than that we didn't hang out. I had Bible studies at my house that Sergio came to a couple times. The reality was though, that once I started attending, I didn't get support, mind you. I was coming out of homelessness with two young kids, one child still in diapers. They were 2 and 3 years old. It's interesting because I was very dependent in some ways, but then very independent in other ways. So I had this idea my whole life that I should never ask for help. And so I never did. I just noticed patterns that the church would bring these food boxes and baskets to people that were not members of the church to increase membership of the church. But yet the needs of our own church members were not met.
- [47:53]
Claire
My name is Claire and I have been friends with Marie for over 15 years. We met while we were working together and we were kind of unlikely friends. I was a college student and she was a single mom with two toddlers. But we began spending a lot of time together and just doing life together. And we've stayed close ever since.
- [48:15]
Tiffany Reese
How would you describe Marie's personality?
- [48:18]
Claire
She is kind, thoughtful, generous. She always will look to see the good in people. She's just one of the best humans that I've ever had the absolute blessing of knowing. For the first couple years of me knowing Marie, her biggest issue and hurdle in her life was actually her ex husband. She has kind of been in this survival mode for so long.
- [48:49]
Tiffany Reese
Do you remember when you first became aware of Sergio in Marie's life?
- [48:54]
Claire
I can remember two specific times that I was even in the same space as him. He wasn't really a huge presence outside of whenever she would go to church. When we had the kids at like a family fun event, him and his family were there and he came up and he was talking to Marie in Spanish, which I did not speak Spanish, and it was very like uneventful. I. I remember we were sitting at the edge of a field and he was the only one that came over
- [49:23]
Marie
to talk to us.
- [49:24]
Claire
Like it wasn't him and his wife or him and a kid. He didn't acknowledge me at all, which was fine. And then the only other time that I was in the same space as him was at a birthday party for Marie's daughter. Because Sergio's daughter and Marie's daughter were friends. Marie would talk about Sergio and Laura in Refuge to church.
- [49:46]
Tiffany Reese
Do you think the fact that he is a pastor also gave him an extra sort of sense of safety?
- [49:54]
Claire
Oh, for sure. It is in our nature to just trust the people who are in our leadership. I don't think that there were any red flags, or at least none that she recognized right away because she was up to her neck in this trauma.
- [50:13]
Tiffany Reese
Did you ever notice anything in those limited physical interactions that you had with them, anything that flagged for you?
- [50:21]
Claire
Not at the time, no. And I was with Marie all the time.
- [50:26]
Marie
I started helping with things in the church. There were a couple of men in the church that had approached me after I started attending again. They told me that my ex husband had asked them to follow me and find out things about me. They were really surprised that they'd been asked that at the time. I really should have taken that really seriously. If I could go back in time, I would have reported that to police. Even if they weren't able to do anything, at least it would have been documented. But I didn't. It did concern me. It scared me because these men were willing to tell me and to say they're not going to do this. But then it just made me wonder. How many men in the church has he asked and how many men would say yes? As I was attending the church with my kids, my friendship with Sergio and his wife was very different because our friendship was always based on. On my ex husband and Sergio's friendship. So now me being alone in the church and separated from my ex husband, it didn't feel as connected. Coming back to the church after separation, the dynamic really changed. It was just more of this Big Brother type relationship. I even went on two missions trips with him in the church. The first trip he and his wife went on, there was one thing that was strange. We had a meeting weeks before we had left. And in that meeting, Serge's wife said that they were going over the expectations. And one of the expectations is that we could not wear a bathing suit and we were going to be at a pool one day. We had to wear shirts and a T shirt. She talked about, like, dressing appropriate and modestly. I remember being really surprised. We get to Bolivia out of respect. I didn't pack a bathing suit. We get to the pool one day during the week and I'm in shorts and a T shirt. And that's all I have. Everybody else is in a bathing suit. Even the missionaries in tankinis. And Laura herself, Sergio's wife, was in a bathing suit. And I was just like, I'm so confused. Obviously it was targeted to me. That was so mean. It was so hot. And I was like, I can't believe she did that. But I don't really believe it was her. I always felt like she didn't speak to me from freedom. It always seemed like she was only telling me things because Sergio told her it was the next trip. She did not come. She was pregnant. It's that second trip that I noticed the behaviors did shift. And it wasn't until the end of the trip, I was at the airport and we were saying goodbye to the missionaries, and then we boarded the plane. I remember Sergio confronting me, basically, and telling me that he saw when I was at the airport, even though all the women were with each other, I wasn't talking to the women. I was talking to the men. And I said, no, I was with all of those women. I stayed around them and hung out with them, first of all. And second of all, why does it matter? He was like, no, I saw you talking to this one guy. I forgot his name, by the way, the guy that he said I was talking to, which I did for like maybe five minutes or less. He was actually a single man. Sergio was making a big deal out of it to me, basically trying to persuade me that it was inappropriate that I was talking to this other man at the airport. The story that he was saying, in every story that he said after that to me about me was making me feel like I'm so inappropriate and I'm so obsessed with men. I'm seductive. And the stories were never accurate. I can see why he was doing that, because if I believed him, it would have completely changed my identity. I had been at that church about four years, from the time I separated from my ex husband to the time he started showing up at my house.
- [55:00]
Tiffany Reese
He being Sergio?
- [55:02]
Marie
Yes.
- [55:03]
Tiffany Reese
Were there red flags or incidences that happened that made you uncomfortable?
- [55:09]
Marie
Yes, there were many red flags that I didn't recognize at the time. I look back and I see those red flags even before he started coming to my house, harassing me. My divorce had been finalized and Sergio showed up at my door one day with groceries. And I was very surprised. He told me he wanted to help me and he decided to bring me groceries. This was in the middle of the day. My kids weren't there and I was just taken off guard. I didn't feel comfortable with this because he's a married man. I was very confused, but I was like, whatever. He is a pastor. And because I'd known him for a long time and I believed he was a man of good character and a godly man, I didn't see it as a red flag, as confusing as it was. So I let him in. He brought in the groceries. There were a few times more that he did that every few weeks. Sometimes he would already be at my house on the front steps with the groceries when I'm just arriving to my house, which I thought was very strange. How did he know that I was about to be home? He always seemed to have really great timing. I never asked for the groceries. I never said I needed them, mind you. This is after I had finished my undergrad as a single mother. I now had a career and a decent income and I had gone through the court system and was getting child support regularly. Now that I'm literally financially stable is when he is bringing these groceries and just telling me he really wants to help me, as if he suddenly cares. After a few times of this, I had asked him not to come back. I don't feel comfortable with this. During the time that he was coming to my house, he was also invading my life. His wife's sister was living at his house and he told me there was so much friction between her and his wife, they fight all the time. And was trying to persuade me to have his sister in law live in my house and she could pay only $100. But he was telling me that this would benefit me because then I'd have someone to help me with my kids. And I'm like, I don't need help with my kids and I don't want anyone living with us. Especially his family member. He had attempted to persuade me to have his mother in law come to my my house and organize it. She's from Argentina. He said, she's lonely here, she really needs something to do. I allowed her to come one time to organize my kitchen, which I really didn't need it, but she spent hours in my kitchen, completely organized it. And then he tried to persuade me to have her come weekly. And I'm sure if I agreed to that, then it would be like daily. For some reason after that one time I was like, that's weird. Why is he trying to get his sister in law to live with me, his mother in law to be at my house every other week. Then he was still showing up to my house. Every time he showed up, I'd be like, what now? That house I was living in, there were windows on the side of the door going the whole length of the door and windows on my front door. So sometimes I'd just be in the foyer area and he'd be there and it's this whole awkward moment, like, oh, he saw me so I can't ignore him. So I'd open the door and he was always there to help. He would do weird things. Like he had me get my laptop one time and say, oh, I just want to show you something. He would tell me which website to go to or what Facebook page. He was showing me different photographers because I had started a photography business and their social media and what they do for marketing. Trying to give me advice. Mind you, he's not a photographer. There was one time he left my house and as he was leaving, he was like, okay, I want to see that when I look at your business page. He left my house and I'm thinking, who the hell does he think he is? It was weird, but I'm just thinking, he's weird. I never followed any of his advice because I just truly did not care about his opinions. I think because of his position as, as a pastor. Those positions do give people leverage, whether they acknowledge that or not. But it makes me also wonder if it gave him authority. People naturally listen to pastors, so I wonder if he believed because of his position. I will listen to him.
- [59:48]
Tiffany Reese
He felt his authority far extended what it actually did.
- [59:53]
Marie
Absolutely. That is the perfect way to communicate that he was using his position of authority to extend authority in every part of my life.
- [60:10]
Tiffany Reese
Next time on Something was Wrong.
- [60:13]
Marie
He was telling me this is how it actually went, that I kissed him. I remember just feeling so numb and so scared. And it was at that moment that I knew something was really, really wrong. To the point where I felt unsafe.
- [60:32]
Claire
He looks directly at the camera the first night and bolts out the door. You know that he knows that the cameras are there. Later that night, we were in my living room watching a movie and her phone dings again. And she was like, he is breaking into my house again.
- [60:53]
Tiffany Reese
Something was Wrong is a broken cycle Media Production created and produced by Tiffany Reese thank you to our incredible team. Associate producer Amy B. Chesler, Audio Engineer Becca High and Social Media Marketing Manager Lauren Barkman Specialty. Thanks to Sarah Stewart for our amazing season 26 artwork, Stephen Wack for add Audio editing and our partners at AudioBoom. Thank you endlessly to every Survivor guest and expert who has contributed to our community. We are eternally grateful for your bravery, energy and time. If you love something was wrong and you want to help, support the show and listen ad free. Become a community contributor on Apple Podcast Podcasts or purchase a sticker from our sticker shop@brokencyclemedia.com or tell everyone you know like your neighbor, sister, brother, yoga instructor, florist, telemarketer, reiki healer, stylist, trainer, mentor, parents, cousins, aunties, uncs, coaches, librarians, matcha artist, dance instructor, balloon artist, wedding planner, bridesmaids, bank teller, driver, dog groomer, dentist, orthodontist, honest esthetician, tattoo artist, house cleaner, accountant, tax preparer, insurance agent, mail carrier, crossing guard, barista, beekeeper, notary, public lifeguard, camp counselor, flight attendant, dog walker, pet sitter, Pilates instructor, spin instructor, tarot reader, acupuncturist, landscaper, electrician, plumber, contractor, real estate agent, mortgage broker, optometrist, veterinarian, park ranger, farmer's market vendor, Little League coach, PTA president, school librarian, substitute teacher, driving instructor, wedding officiant, travel agent, locksmith, Ferris wheel operator, hot air balloon pilot, llama farmer, falconer, puppeteer, professional mermaid or that one friend who's somehow just in everyone's business? If you know, you know. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe. Friends Foreign
- [62:56]
Amy B. Chesler
hi friends, this is Amy B. Chesler, and if you've been loving listening to Something Was Wrong, you'll definitely want to check out Broken Cycle Media's sister podcast, what Came Next. With more than 170 episodes available, the series explores what happens after survivors share their stories publicly, diving into healing, justice, advocacy and the lasting impact of trauma and media exposure. Co created and co produced by Tiffany Reiss, the show gives survivors a platform to discuss not just what happened, but where life led them next. Follow and listen to what came next. Wherever you get your podcasts.