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- [00:00]
Wondery Host
Wondery subscribers can listen to Something Was Wrong early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:12]
Matt Murphy
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- [01:46]
Tiffany Reiss
Next is intended for mature audiences only. Episodes discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional, physical and sexual violence, animal abuse, suicide and murder. I am not a therapist, nor am I a doctor. If you're in need of support, please visit SomethingWasWrong.com resources for a list of nonprofit organizations that can help. Opinions expressed by my guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of myself or or Broken Cycle. Media resources and source material are linked in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. Something was Wrong Season 19, featuring Amy's episodes began airing January 11, 2024 and finished airing February 8th of the same year. In the five episodes, Amy's tenacity and resiliency became resoundingly clear as she and her loved ones recounted all they faced amidst years of stalking and cyber stalking through what felt like a never ending criminal justice and legal battle. Amy would eventually put her stalker Morrison behind bars and she would share in hopes of finding more of his victims she returns today to share about all that's transpired in the parole process since season 19 ended and all that she continues to work for in honor of other victims of stalking. The Broken Cycle media team is immensely grateful for Amy's continued candidness and advocacy, as well as the time, energy, and awareness she's offered our listeners.
- [03:57]
Amy
Hi, this is amy from season 19 of Something Was Wrong. I shared my story of being stalked, sending my stalker to prison, serving the maximum sentence possible in the state of Colorado, and finally the beginning of the parole process. Going into the recordings, prior to hearing them back, I felt like I was in a really good place because here it is all laid out, all the nitty, gritty, nasty details that oftentimes I was hesitant to share with people even when they knew my story. But it was important to get all those details out. Listening back to the episodes was healing. It was emotional. I was very grateful to my friends, my family, and those who also told their stories because they're also victims of Morrison's through what he did to me. I was grateful that they were all willing to participate. That meant a lot because I think their perspectives helped support the story. There were parts of their story that they had not shared with me in an effort to protect me with what I was dealing with. And so there are parts that I also learned through hearing others experience with it as well. In particular, I think of Natalie and the experience she had where someone was on the Airbnb site. I did not know that, and had I known that, I would have been freaked out for her. And I'm upset that she had to go through that. The fact that they had the opportunity to share their side of the story, too, because I was the primary victim. I'm the one telling my story. But there were so many people impacted listening to it back. I think I realized during the time that he was stalking me. I thought I was holding it together pretty good and protecting those around me. And I think in hearing their stories, I realized that I shouldn't have been so hard on myself in having to keep this so separate from my life. I knew I held a lot of guilt and embarrassment that this happened to me because if I hadn't sent the pictures or if I had done this, that or the other, then it wouldn't have happened to me. I've let all of that go, but I don't think I fully let it go until I heard the episodes back. Hearing their perspectives and their side of what they experienced, I realized that they could tell that I was not okay. And I wish I just would have been more upfront about what I was experiencing from an emotional standpoint and my mental health. The response that I got is those who did know at least a little bit about what was going on had no idea the extent of what was actually happening. And those who had no idea reaching out and saying, oh, my God, Amy, I had no idea you were going through this. How did you just keep everything together? And the sad reality is, as a victim of this type of crime, I don't get to lose it. I don't get to fall apart, because I do have a life I have to keep together. So part of me was glad that people had no idea. I think now that I'm on the other side of this and my story's out there, I wish in hindsight, I would have been even more open with people. I had a number of people reach out every week. I feel like someone learns of my story or has heard it, sees something I post on social media, and they reach out and say, I had a stalker or I was sexually assaulted or something related to what I experienced. It's shocking to me how many people actually have something similar that's happened to them. I'm grateful that folks have come forward and felt comfortable to share their story with me. That's something that transpired after listening to the episodes, too. My motivation in telling my story to you all was I wanted to find other victims. I was already aware of one going into the podcast. If I could find one other victim and get them to come forward, then this has been so worth it. I've gotten so much more out of it than finding one victim. There was a victim that came forward after listening to my story on something was wrong. I'm so grateful that she came forward and she reached out to you, Tiffany, you were able to connect us. We still talk.
- [08:14]
Tiffany
When one of the other victims came forward, she had reached out to the podcast. She had shared with me that she's been a day one listener if something was wrong. And also a survivor of Morrison. As soon as she started hearing Amy speak on episode one of her season, that just continued to be confirmed for her through it. That's always our hope when we're putting these stories out there, that we're going to find more victims. And especially was Amy's hope, her whole family's hope and prayer that this was going to happen. Then to see that actually come to fruition while the season is releasing was pretty incredible and very moving. Thankfully, you also had so many people in your Corner that were willing to speak up for you and advocate alongside you. So we were really able to deliver to the listeners a really full picture of the situation. It helps from a victimology and a criminology standpoint, being able to have such a rich picture of you within the content and your loved ones, your support system, and all the people who are ultimately impacted by Morrison's actions. Then also being able to really show people who Morrison was through the recordings and all the evidence that you provided. The monstrous person that you have unjustly had to deal with. Matching with this person on a dating app and having a few exchanges with this person, Literally something that everybody that's dating nowadays has probably done at least once or twice in the modern dating app world. As a team, we were really honored to work on the story.
- [09:57]
Amy
Thank you. What's been fascinating with uncovering and connecting with other victims is realizing that this is a large web from a distance standpoint. They live a long ways away from where I'm located. And I know Morrison's reach is large. I think it's even larger than what I initially thought. I identified a third going through my case file that I got access to. When I got the case file, I knew it was a large file. I had heard it was like 100,000 pages. I have about a little over 20,000 of them because I definitely extracted a lot of the pages out of it. I heard that at the sentencing. I assume it's because there's photos. What was surprising is the photos of me were not extracted. They are all in there, which at this point, I've just become numb to, unfortunately. The whole purpose of me wanting to get the case file was to identify other victims and reach out to them so they knew who this guy was. Identifying other victims. There were some that were obvious to me, and then there are some that weren't so obvious. I think what surprised me is as I've reached out to these victims, it's like a 50, 50 shot. I even get a response. I know each person's journey is different. And given the trauma of the stalking that Morrison did, I wouldn't be surprised if they felt like I was him, because they still don't know who this person is or whatever. It may be some interesting aspects to the case file. They outline and detail the process for executing the search warrant play by play, which was fascinating. Who was there, how they're going to do it, when they're going to do it. That was very interesting. I knew there were a lot of law enforcement agencies that participated But I didn't realize it was that many. And there was a K9 unit as well. It says they asked to interview Morrison and he declined, of course. So they separated him from his parents first thing. And then they interviewed his parents. And his parents mentioned that he had an incident in college. He put bodily fluids on a girl's door. No charges were ultimately pressed, so he's not convicted of anything yet. This crime occurred through the search warrant. Play by play. There were a number of zip drives. The zip drives would have a first name of a woman and then whore. First name whore. And they found multiple of these. So when I say there's multiple victims, there are multiple victims. They found Nazi memorabilia in his room. There's just a lot of information from the technical side or the IP side of stuff. Given the nature of the cyber stalking, it was not surprising, but the extent of it was. I keep going back through the case file thinking I'm going to see something I didn't see before. I think I've resigned myself to the fact that I've identified all of the potential victims and I've reached out to all of them. My dad has said it's not your responsibility to necessarily protect all of the victims. I get what he's saying because he's trying to protect me and my emotional well being. But there's something within me that doesn't want to stop trying to identify other victims until there's an adequate number of us that are aware of each other. I feel like he's winning to some degree in this because he's been charged with one stalking crime and he knows all of the crimes he's committed. Just to refresh your memory, he got the maximum sentence in the state of Colorado, thank God. But that sentence is four years with time served and two years parole or probation. He's been in jail since November of 2021. So we're coming up on a third year. As crazy as it sounds, it's something I didn't comprehend, or maybe I couldn't at the time. Once he was sentenced and in jail, I had this moment of peace, like this is done. It's something that after the second parole hearing in May in particular became a very real realization of mine more than ever that now I just go into the next phase. It's almost like chapters. You feel like it's the last chapter. And I now realize that there's many chapters ahead of me. I just will have to focus on each one one at a time. I've heard multiple survivors talk about too it's like just when you get one parole hearing done, six months later you're prepping cause you're gonna have to go into the next one. And there's responsibilities you have as the victim in those parole hearings. Although you get bits of peace in your life, you don't get full peace ever.
- [14:53]
Tiffany
Nor does your family or loved ones who are constantly worrying about you as well.
- [14:58]
Amy
Exactly.
- [15:05]
Wondery Host
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- [16:48]
Tiffany
Vacation and I love it because it.
- [16:49]
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- [17:31]
Amy
The parole hearings the first one was May of 23. The second one just happened this previous May. Per usual, quite eye opening. And if the first parole hearing wasn't shocking enough, the second one was a bit more shocking. Maybe it's because the reality of his release is just right around the corner. He said a lot of scary, crazy things yet again in this last parole hearing. Leading up to the parole hearing, we also have to provide victim impact statements. Again, I'm grateful to all of the other victims that also provided them because it isn't just me who's impacted in this. It's numerous people who have also been brought into this mess. The way that the parole hearing worked for me, I am not there in person. I am attending via phone. So there's not video for me either. The victim advocate calls me ahead of time and loops me in with the parole board chair who's conducting the hearing. Once the hearing is done, then I get back on with the victim advocate and have a conversation. We join the parole hearing and I can't see anything. It's before the parole board chair hits record. I hear some scuffling and the parole board chair asked him, what is that you have with you? And he said, oh, it's just a book I got from the library. The parole board chair asked him to put it away and that stuck with me. I reached out to the victim advocate afterwards and I said, I need to know what that book was. I know with Morrison there is no coincidence and he is very calculated. Sure enough, it was a biography on Adolf Hitler. To me, that's in line with some of his previous behaviors. So that's how it started. At one point early on, he asked if he was still going to be able to make lunch because he didn't want to miss lunch and completely interrupted the parole board chair. In the first parole hearing, he said that being in jail has been the best experience of his life. He made a note in the second parole hearing to say that it's been the second best experience of his life next to his childhood. He mentioned his family and his parents throughout the second parole hearing. And yet you haven't talked to your parents since you went to jail. He had mentioned that he spent more time outside since he's been in Colorado and incarcerated than he did in his time in New Jersey, although he hasn't had the opportunity to go out and explore. He absolutely wants to come back to Colorado. To me, although he put it in context of a vacation. I took that as one of his victims, as a direct threat that he's coming back here. Why would you go back to the state or even articulate. You want to come back to the state where you have a victim that you stalked? I have pages and pages of notes that I'm just jotting down as the parole hearing was going on. And I'm just giving you a few of the notes because the insanity is incomprehensible in a lot of ways. I think one other thing definitely worth noting is he's been working in the library. The parole board chair did ask questions around what's going to make you successful when you get out of jail and what are your plans? He told the parole board chair that he wants to work in a library when he gets out. For those who have been in a library recently, there's a lot of technology in those facilities and access to technology. Of course he wants to work in a library. He wants access to computers. I looked at my permanent protection order, and it says that he's just not to contact me in any capacity. That's one thing I asked for in my victim impact statement, is that he couldn't have access to electronics and all these things. I think the world we're living in, that's very hard to monitor. In his parole hearing, when they asked what you're going to do when you're released on parole, the first thing he said is, well, I know the victim has a protection order on me, so I'm not going to contact her. Was like, why did you even point that out? That was just odd to me.
- [21:26]
Tiffany
So much about him hasn't changed from the earlier recordings. Even in the recording when he first was sentenced, anytime the judge would try to point out to him your feelings or your family's feelings or how it was impacting other people, he basically would just be like, I haven't denied that I did that. There's no sense of empathy, compassion, or anything for anyone but himself.
- [21:52]
Amy
Exactly. He's always admitted that he's done the crime, and he continues to, but there's no empathy or emotion or apology. And these parole hearings, he has not changed. The first parole board chair said some very direct things to Morrison. This parole board chair, I think, took a different approach. When I thought back to how he handled it all, he ultimately let Morrison tell him he wanted the mandatory release date. So here he is, up for parole, and at the end of it, Morrison had talked himself in so many directions that the parole board chair at one point was like, sir, are you asking to be released on your mandatory release date? And he said yes. I thought, wow, he's very smart and he's obviously in this role for a reason because that was a win in this parole hearing. He wasn't released early, so he was okay with the mandatory release date, which in the parole hearing he was talking about being December. At the time I thought it was April or March and that was bumped up from what it was originally going to be. So I'm jotting down notes like how does he keep referring to his mandatory release date as end of December of this year? Obviously he was privy to some information that I wasn't. And this is kind of his tone as he's talking to the parole board chair. December's actually better because his flag football team's been doing pretty good and they did really well last year. He doesn't really want to be there for the holidays because he doesn't get along with his brother in law. All signs are pointing to he will be released the end of this year. I'm still waiting for official confirmation, but every month I check his inmate doc page and his mandatory release date keeps getting bumped up. Two weeks every month, which if you line that up with the amount of months we have left in the year, it's right up at the end of the year. The hardest part of this has been the unknown, this crime. There was so much unknown that that was what made it so painfully difficult. I don't know when I'm going to hear from the victim advocate or from the system is what I will say because they have to notify me as a victim about his release, where he's being released, all of these things. But it's never as much ahead of time as it really should be. I feel like I need to be proactive on my end, asking the right questions, reaching out to the right people, so I know what I'm dealing with. I have wanted him to be out of Colorado from the get go. I don't know why they sent him here anyway since it's a stalking case and they brought him closer to me. I want him to go back to New Jersey once his sentence is served and he does as well. What he has filed for is something called interstate so he can serve his parole in New Jersey and not in Colorado. As a result, he has some hoops to jump through. One, the state of New Jersey has to welcome him back, meaning he has to have a place to live, he has to have a job, and he has to come to them with a plan so he can't just go back. A lot of what I'm processing right now is I don't know if he's going to be released and go back to New Jersey to serve his parole or if he will be forced to serve his parole here in Colorado. If he does interstate, he still has to get himself to New Jersey. He has to pay his way and get his way back there. And if he doesn't interstate and he is in Colorado, then that is a whole nother part of this journey that I have yet to process. I'm hoping I will know sooner rather than later where he's going to be serving his parole. Because as you can imagine, if he's going to be in Colorado, that opens a whole nother piece of this for me emotionally. It's something I have to be prepared for to happen again. I feel like I'm being re victimized by him being released and I don't feel like I'm on the other side yet as a survivor, but I will be eventually. I can't assume anything relative to his release. I have to be prepared and that's very overwhelming. I have to compartmentalize and process each piece one at a time. And it's something I'm doing now leading up to that release. Although I do have fearful moments, I refuse to live in fear. I will be prepared for his release and that is all I can really do given the circumstances and the position he's put me in. When Morrison's released, regardless of where he's released, I'm not going to be here. I'm going to be somewhere else for my mental health. When I do come back, then I can cocoon. I want to come home to peace. This is the other part of what I've been processing. I haven't had peace since I realized he's going to be released. I think one of the hardest things is I want to refuse to let him steal my peace. And yet he has stolen it from me so many times. But I know who he is going into the release. I have a name, I have a face. For so many years I didn't know who he was, where he lived. When he's released, at least I know who I'm looking for or what I'm looking for. That gives me a little peace going into this next phase.
- [27:22]
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- [27:44]
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- [28:50]
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- [29:24]
Amy
I'm still on this journey to find other victims and hopefully empower them to come forward and if they want to press charges against Morrison to do so. There's a few things that are going against us in this journey to keep Morrison in jail and away from harming people. It's statute of limitations relative to stalking. Three years in most states is the statute of limitations which now he's been in jail for three years. If charges haven't been pressed thus far, then it will have to be new charges once he's released if and when he starts up this activity again. The reality is it is not done and this is a forever journey until we're no longer cohabitating on this earth together. One of my priorities was trying to get these fake accounts of myself that Morrison had created taken down Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, wherever else I'm not aware of it actually ended up being a very difficult task. It was too overwhelming for me to actually pursue. And now given where I'm at, I'm glad that the ones that I'm aware of are still out there. One of the updates is he or someone is active on the Facebook profile, not posting actively, but has been changing some of the settings behind the scenes, how you can view friends. For example, I follow the profile and one time I could see the close to thousand friends on Facebook and then a few weeks later all of them are removed and now I could just see my one mutual friend. Then I checked again earlier this week and all of the friends are back up there. There's just some funky stuff happening behind the scenes and I am monitoring it. The only person I know who does have the login is Morrison. So he or someone else is active on that account and must be doing it from inside the system. I have been trying to reach out to all sorts of parties, trying to get engaged in the advocacy, community awareness and legislative support and all of the things. I did not know where to start. I was on a business trip actually with some public officials. My representative within the area that I live just happened to be on this trip. I thought, well, if there is an opportunity in a professional way, I want to broach the conversation of how do I get involved. He was very supportive and said, I'm going to connect you with the head of the Judicial committee here in the state of Colorado. And he did that. When we got back, that kind of spearheaded where I went from there. So I met with the head of the judicial Committee. He connected me with a couple nonprofits, one of which was supporting some legislation around online facilitated misconduct. This was specific to dating apps and remote tracking. It's really just to keep dating apps and sites more accountable and putting some safety measures in place. And this bill also addressed deep fakes, which is a huge problem in this country with AI right now, deep fakes and remote tracking, which to my knowledge we did not have in the state of Colorado. And the hope is that we can build upon this legislation not just apply to dating apps, but all technology companies. I did testify at the legislature here in Colorado this past year, which that's a whole other experience. They provided support from Talking Points reviewing my testimony to make sure that it was buttoned up in the way that it needed to be. It feels so good to be able to do it and to take action. But I was way more emotional than I anticipated when I testified the first time. There were two Other survivors who also spoke about their experiences. Both of them had been sexually assaulted through meeting somebody on a dating app. I did not know their stories. Going into testifying in person, I heard the first story, and her story was so shocking to me. And so going into telling my story next was difficult because not only is telling my story emotional, but then hearing these other stories, it was a lot. I think now that I've had the exposure and I know what to expect going forward, I hope to have less emotion from that capacity because I want to be taken very seriously. And although some emotion was good to show, I felt like I was too emotional. I did not expect that. The bill did pass, and so I was happy to support it.
- [33:53]
Tiffany
You're so amazing. I just love that you're taking the power back in a lot of ways and you're literally helping to make change to help be preventative to other people being harmed through these apps. This kind of legislation is what we hope for at a federal level and we want to see in all 50 states and internationally. This is needed, gets us one step closer. So it is a huge win for survivors.
- [34:20]
Amy
Absolutely. I am a person by nature that if I see something wrong, I want to fix it and I want to bring good out of it. I want to bring change. That's just part of me I've had to accept. But through that, it helps me heal because I feel like I'm bringing something good out of a really terrible experience. From that perspective, it does help you heal and move forward by helping others and hopefully bringing change to legislation and advocating and bringing awareness. It's empowering. And the more I focus on that side of it, the more I heal from the nasty bad parts that I continue to have to deal with. I think being a voice as a victim who's experienced that is a big piece of this. So often stalking is downgraded from other crimes because someone hasn't lost their life yet. That's one thing I'm trying to bring awareness to is stalking is a precursor to a lot of crimes. I don't think that we talk about that piece of it enough. I think there need to be harsher penalties for stalking crimes and cyber stalking crimes.
- [35:30]
Tiffany
Prosecuting these crimes. Is prevention of these crimes escalating?
- [35:35]
Amy
Exactly. There needs to be better legislation, longer sentencing for stalkers. Like the statute of limitations being three years was mind blowing to me because what are the prior victims of Morrison going to do at this point? He can't be prosecuted for them, even though we know he's guilty of a Lot of the same crime with a lot of victims. It's really on the criminal side of the legislation and creating harsher penalties for stalkers. One of the things that's been shocking to me is the lack of jurisdiction speaking to one another, especially in my situation where we're talking about multiple jurisdictions. Since I was the victim, everything's been handled here. I'm grateful because the state of Colorado has good stalking laws compared to other states, but there's a lot that still needs to be done. This jurisdiction issue has just been mind blowing because it is stalking and cyber stalking in particular. The federal side of law enforcement is overwhelmed with other crimes that we get pushed to the back burner and we're not prioritized. But I do think that the jurisdictions need to be talking to each other across state lines and international lines more frequently because these stalkers are acting in multiple jurisdictions.
- [36:55]
Tiffany
That's the tricky thing, especially with cyber stalking. If we look at season 20, Jessica Pauley, her victims are in so many different states, and she's constantly moving states. So it makes it really hard even for the FBI to figure out who has jurisdiction when somebody's constantly on the run and using the Internet and dating apps, especially the kind that'll let you change your location and these various different things.
- [37:20]
Amy
Yes. Another thing I think needs to occur is just like there's a sex offender list that's a national kind of database of sex offenders. Why do we not have a national stalking database? To me, that's one of the simplest ways to protect others and to hold these stalkers accountable for multiple jurisdictions to know what they're doing in other jurisdictions and what they may or may not have been convicted of. I will say the stalking survivor community that are trying to bring awareness and advocacy is pretty small. There are some other survivors that I'm trying to make contact with, one here locally in particular, to help me be more educated. I want to help write legislation. And my understanding is that's very difficult and hard to navigate. That's not going to stop me. I just want to know the right avenue and where to begin and who are the representatives that I need to be talking to who would support that.
- [38:17]
Tiffany Reiss
You've accomplished so much in such a short amount of time amidst being stalked. You're amazing.
- [38:26]
Amy
Thank you for that. I feel like there's change and there's positive things coming. I have my days. I just feel deflated, frustrated, and unmotivated in some capacity. So you just re energized me to keep going with it.
- [38:40]
Tiffany
So thank you I think also rest is productive. That is also a part of advocacy that we don't talk about enough. Part of that is allowing yourself time when you need it. And then there's other times where you feel energized and you feel like you can accomplish a lot that day.
- [38:59]
Amy
I couldn't agree more. I think I've been saying no a lot more. Granted where I'm at in the healing or acceptance or processing side of all of what I'm going through right now, I need downtime and enjoying the little things again. One thing Morrison said in this last parole hearing is he's in the best shape of his life. That triggered me to say, I want to be in the best shape of my life, mentally, emotionally, physically. I need that. I need to focus on self care for when he's released and feel your.
- [39:29]
Tiffany
Most confident in doing what you can to prepare 100%.
- [39:34]
Amy
I'm motivated.
- [39:35]
Tiffany Reiss
Part of our process too is having those days of deflation as well. You're a human who's live grieving and navigating a lot. You will have that ebb and flow.
- [39:47]
Amy
Live grieving, I have not heard that term and that is so relevant to me right now. I wish I could heal and not get emotional, but I have learned the emotional side is a package deal. I'm trying to be better at accepting it. I was in therapy when all this was really rearing its head and I got to a point where both my therapist and I said, you know, I think I'm in a good place and I can take a break. I just reconnected with her this week because I can't do it all on my own and sometimes that's hard for me to accept. I'm going to re engage with her and hopefully help process some pieces of this that I either haven't or I'm struggling to do. My parents, they're still huge support system and have always been and continue to be. I'm very grateful to them and my entire support system. They've been wonderful. And I think with Morrison's release coming very soon, the support is ongoing and I'm so grateful to them. I'm so grateful to you both for letting me share my story. And it's been such a healing journey for me. The impact and bringing attention to such an important subject. I'm very grateful to you both and your entire team. I probably wouldn't have found one of the victims without you. We achieved our goal and now I just want to find others. I want to prevent him from hurting others.
- [41:08]
Tiffany
And I believe you'll do that because everything you accomplish to set out to do, I feel like you conquer it where you're able. You're a very resilient person. You allow yourself time to grieve and to feel things, but you bounce back. I just can't thank you enough for even being willing to come back, speak to us and share more because you've already given us so much and shared so much and changed so many people's lives by sharing. We had so many stalking survivors submit their stories since season 19. It's been an honor to be a small part of supporting you through this. We continue to wish you the best. Thank you.
- [41:51]
Tiffany Reiss
Tiffany put everything perfectly. But you are tenacious but also resilient. I wish you didn't have to be so, but you are a gift to the world.
- [42:01]
Amy
I appreciate that. I'm so glad to hear other stalking survivors have chosen to come forward because we need so many more to come forward for real change to be had.
- [42:14]
Tiffany Reiss
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. What Came Next is a Broken Cycle Media production co produced by Amy B. Chesler and Tiffany Reiss. If you'd like to help support what Came Next, you can leave us a positive review, support our sponsors or follow Broken Cycle Media on Instagram Broken cyclemedia. Check out the episode notes for sources, resources and to follow our guests. Thank you again for listening.
- [42:47]
Tiffany
If you like something was wrong, you.
- [42:49]
Wondery Host
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- [43:09]
Luke Lamana
Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history. From COVID experiments pushing the boundaries of science to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about. Each week on Redacted Declassified Mysteries, we pull back the curtain on These hidden histories, 100% true and verifiable stories that expose the shadowy underbelly of of power. Consider Operation Paperclip, where former Nazi scientists were brought to America after World War II not as prisoners, but as assets to advance US intelligence during the Cold War. These aren't just old conspiracy theories. They're thoroughly investigated accounts that reveal the uncomfortable truths still shaping our world today. The stories are real. The secrets are shocking. Follow Redacted Declared Classified mysteries with me, Luke Lamana, on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts to listen ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app.