A Hostage Negotiator’s Advice for Difficult Conversations & How to Stay Alive Longer

Summary

Episode Summary: "A Hostage Negotiator’s Advice for Difficult Conversations & How to Stay Alive Longer"

Podcast: Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guest 1: Ryan Dunlap, Former Police Detective and Hostage Negotiator
Guest 2: Professor John Tregoning, Professor of Vaccine Immunology at Imperial College London
Release Date: July 14, 2025

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Section 1: Mastering Difficult Conversations and Negotiations with Ryan Dunlap

Overview:
In the first segment of the episode, Mike Carruthers welcomes Ryan Dunlap, a seasoned former police detective, SWAT hostage negotiator, and crisis intervention officer. Ryan shares his expertise on handling high-stakes negotiations and provides actionable strategies for navigating everyday difficult conversations.

Key Discussions and Insights

1. Understanding the Nature of Negotiations ([06:44])
   Ryan emphasizes that negotiations are often about de-escalating emotions and bringing parties back to reality. Unlike the dramatic scenarios portrayed on TV, most negotiations involve individuals in mental health crises or emotional exhaustion rather than malicious intent.

2. Success Rates and Realities ([06:44])
   Hostage negotiators boast a 94% success rate in defusing tense situations. However, Ryan recounts a personal experience where negotiations failed, highlighting that while rare, not all situations can be resolved peacefully.

3. Common Misconceptions ([09:37])
   Many people are intimidated by the idea of negotiation, with research indicating that 89% tend to avoid it. Ryan's goal is to embolden individuals to engage in negotiations confidently.

4. Tailoring Negotiation Strategies ([10:11])
   Ryan explains that there is no one-size-fits-all strategy for negotiations. The approach varies based on whether the situation is collaborative or contentious. For example, collaborative negotiations allow for open expression of needs, while contentious ones may require different persuasion techniques.

5. Managing Emotions in Negotiations ([11:45])
   Emotional regulation is pivotal. Ryan outlines three critical components:

   • Self-Awareness: Knowing oneself to avoid being swayed by emotions.
   • Self-Confidence: Trusting one's principles and boundaries.
   • Self-Control: Maintaining composure during heated discussions.

   Notable Quote:
   “The challenge comes in trying to listen well and communicate effectively when we're feeling offended or angry. Those emotions can completely derail a conversation.” ([11:45])

6. Transforming Contentious into Collaborative Conversations ([26:37])
   Ryan illustrates how understanding the other party's true needs can lead to win-win outcomes. Instead of compromising, sometimes it's possible to fully satisfy both parties by addressing their underlying interests.

7. Practical Example: Asking for a Raise ([28:51])
   When negotiating a raise, Ryan advises understanding the employer's constraints and aligning your request with the organization's goals. He suggests presenting data on industry standards and highlighting how your contributions add value to the company.

   Notable Quote:
   “If you go into the conversation understanding how the organization defines value, you will recognize that there could be a gap between what they see as valuable and what you see as valuable.” ([31:02])

Conclusions

• Active Listening: Truly hearing and validating the other person's perspective reduces defensiveness and opens avenues for mutual understanding.
• Preparation: Effective negotiation requires anticipating the other party's needs and possible constraints.
• Flexibility: Adapting your strategy based on the nature of the conversation leads to better outcomes.

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Section 2: Enhancing Longevity and Health with Professor John Tregoning

Overview:
In the latter part of the episode, Mike engages with Professor John Tregoning, an expert in vaccine immunology, to delve into the science of longevity and healthy living. Professor Tregoning shares research-backed insights on how to extend both lifespan and healthspan—the period of life spent in good health.

Key Discussions and Insights

1. Defining Lifespan vs. Healthspan ([35:25])
   Professor Tregoning differentiates between lifespan (total years lived) and healthspan (years lived in good health). He advocates for focusing on improving healthspan to ensure quality of life in later years.

2. Simple Health Practices ([35:31])
   Fundamental habits such as:

   • Avoiding Smoking
   • Regular Exercise
   • Balanced Diet
   • Moderate Alcohol Consumption

   These practices not only improve quality but can also extend lifespan.

3. Social Connectivity ([35:57])
   Engaging in meaningful relationships and social activities is crucial. Activities that combine physical, social, and cognitive elements—like dancing—offer synergistic health benefits.

   Notable Quote:
   “Doing things that you love with people that you love will increase the quality and quantity of your life.” ([35:57])

4. Genetics vs. Environment ([47:30])
   Health outcomes are influenced by both genetic predispositions and environmental factors. Understanding one's family history can inform preventative measures, though genetic factors can sometimes be irreversible.

5. Caloric Balance and Weight Management ([39:48])
   Maintaining a healthy weight through balanced calorie intake and expenditure is essential. Different strategies work for different individuals, such as exercise-centric approaches or intermittent fasting.

6. Alcohol Consumption Risks ([43:23])
   While moderate drinking may have some social benefits, excessive alcohol intake is harmful, particularly to the liver and increases the risk of various cancers.

   Notable Quote:
   “Alcohol is a poison, and the more alcohol you drink, the more damage you do to your body.” ([43:23])

7. Gender Differences in Health ([46:23])
   Men and women face different health challenges. Women are more prone to autoimmune diseases, while men are more susceptible to heart disease and accidents, especially as they age.

8. Future of Aging and Care ([49:12])
   Advances in exercise and preventative care can delay aging-related frailty. However, inherent biological processes mean that some aspects of aging are inevitable. Enhancing old age care and social support can improve the quality of life in later years.

   Notable Quote:
   “I think one of the things that I kind of learned as I was researching the book is to do things that link cognitive, social, and physical together and you get much more synergistic benefits.” ([51:21])

Conclusions

• Holistic Health Approach: Combining physical activity, social engagement, and cognitive stimulation leads to better health outcomes.
• Preventative Measures: Early and consistent health practices can significantly impact both lifespan and healthspan.
• Personalization: Health strategies should be tailored to individual needs, considering genetic and environmental factors.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Something You Should Know offers valuable insights into two critical aspects of life: effective communication and personal health. Ryan Dunlap equips listeners with practical negotiation techniques applicable in both personal and professional settings, emphasizing the importance of emotional regulation and active listening. Meanwhile, Professor John Tregoning provides a scientific perspective on enhancing longevity and maintaining health, underscoring the significance of social connections and balanced lifestyles.

Listeners are encouraged to apply these strategies to improve their interactions and overall well-being, embodying the podcast's mission to deliver actionable wisdom for a better life.

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For more detailed discussions and actionable advice, consider listening to the full episode of "Something You Should Know."

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

With the Venmo Debit card, you can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show. You can Venmo that.

[Ryan Dunlap]

Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank in a pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. The card may be used everywhere MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.

[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know how watching someone fold towels could be the best few moments of your entire day. Then advice for the next negotiation or difficult conversation.

[John Tregoning]

You have to have the goal here to be able to tell somebody else what they want so accurately that when you're done describing their side of the argument, they say, yes, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Because when people feel heard and felt and seen, their guard decreases.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, a great way to improve your email messaging and the latest science on how to live a long and healthy life.

[Unknown]

This idea that actually quality has a quantity of its own. That if you improve the quality quality of your life, you can actually increase the quantity too. Doing things that you love with people that you love will increase the quality and quantity of your life.

[Mike Carruthers]

All this today on something you should know. You know, it's interesting. If you own or run a business, you're just sort of expected to know how to hire people. Well, sorry, I've been in that position. Maybe you have too. Hiring is a lot harder than it looks and the results are too high stakes. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. With Indeed, you don't have to struggle to get your job post seen on other job sites. Indeed's Sponsored Jobs help you stand out so you can hire fast. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps right to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you reach the right people faster. Look, if you feel real confident like you can hire someone all on your own and nail it, great. But it's so much better to have Indeed guide you through the process. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. You just pay for results. Millions of businesses use Indeed. In fact, in the minute I've been Talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed According to Indeed Data worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more [e-mail] something. Just go to indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. H Hiring Indeed is all you need. Something you should know Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers I think I may have mentioned this years ago on this podcast, but it just came up in conversation and I think it's worth repeating if you haven't heard about it. Hi and welcome to this episode of Something youg Should Know. So There is an 18 minute YouTube video and it's about how to fold towels. Yeah, right, fold towels. And it's narrated by a woman who barely speaks above a whisper. Over 2 million people have viewed this video so far, and most likely not because they need to learn how to fold towels. Instead, it's because an increasing number of people report experiencing something called Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response asmr and it's a whole body tingling that listening to soft monotone voices can trigger. ASMR is a neurological experience that causes some people, not everybody, but some people, including me, to experience what has been termed a brain orgasm. A tingling, pleasurable sensation similar to goosebumps. It begins at the head or neck and works its way throughout the entire body. The most common triggers of this sensation include educational videos, having your hair cut, feeling empathetic, enjoying music or art, and listening to slow enunciated speech or experiencing close personal contact with someone. It feels so good that people keep re watching this incredibly dull video just to get that experience over and over again. What's interesting is that science does not recognize this as a thing. It doesn't ever appear to have been studied or written about scientifically. It is simply a self reported experience, meaning people say it happens to them but no one really knows what it is or why. Nevertheless, it feels good and I'll put the link to that video in the show notes and that is something you should know. Every day you negotiate with your family members, people at work, strangers, even with yourself. To navigate in this world requires that you negotiate what you're going to do, what you want other people to do, and to deal with conflicts. And it's all a negotiation and there are some strategies anyone can use to be better at it, even if you don't consider yourself a big negotiator. Here with some insight into this is Ryan Dunlap. His negotiation expertise comes from being a former police detective, a SWAT hostage negotiator, and crisis intervention officer. Ryan has facilitated hundreds of high stakes interviews, interrogations and negotiations. He's author of a book called how to Untie a Balloon, A Negotiator's Guide to Avoid Popping Under Pressure. Hi, Ryan. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[John Tregoning]

Thanks so much for having me, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

So before we get to dealing with difficult conversations and negotiations, since you're a hostage negotiator, I'm always curious because we see it on tv and that's really, you know, the only place we see it. Most of us, I'm curious, like, what do you have to negotiate? Because I don't know if this really happens, but on tv, they want a plane and they're going to fly to South America, and they want $10 million in cash, and you're not going to give them that. So what is there to negotiate?

[John Tregoning]

It's a good question. A lot of times what we're doing in negotiation is de escalating someone and bringing them down to reality. They found themselves in a situation that they probably didn't expect to be in because of emotions as we started our conversation with. And now they're having an unreasonable response to pressure, fear, and stress. And so they're looking for an escape measure. And so in those situations, really what we're doing is de escalating, and we are reality testing, and we are helping them recognize the real possibilities of that conversation. So it was not uncommon to go into some of these situations and tell people, hey, what's your understanding of how you're going to get out of this? Because the helicopter is not a realistic thing. Me bringing a truck and letting you disappear out of here with $10 million cash, not a realistic thing. And so in those situations, there's some strategy to navigating these conversations with people. You don't want to lie, but you also want to avoid telling them no. And so that kind of gets into a thicker conversation of how to navigate these conversations. But really what you're doing is you're helping them rationally assess reality. And the hard thing about negotiation is a lot of times you can't move the conversation forward if people are unreasonable, irrational, or not ready. And I think that's the big thing that you have to take away from this, is that irrational people and unreasonable people can't be negotiated with. We're not negotiating with them. We're de escalating. Hostage negotiators are 94% successful in these difficult conversations, but not 100%. And sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes words fail. My last negotiation is a great example of that. The gentleman I was negotiating with, unfortunately, unfortunately did not heed warning and was subsequently shot by a sniper. Now, he lived, which is why I tell the story. And I remember a conversation at the end of the ordeal when he was being wheeled into an ambulance, and he was tearful, and he says, man, I can't believe they shot me. And I said, well, I told you they would. I also think it's important to recognize that hostage negotiations are incredibly rare. A vast majority of what we dealt with were crisis negotiations, people who had exceeded their ability to cope with present circumstances. These were mental health crises or momentary crises of just emotional exhaustion. Most of these people weren't bad folks. They were having bad days. And so bringing them back down to reality is much easier than the one off that you get with a terrorist or someone whose aim is to just hurt people. That's a very different style of negotiation for.

[Mike Carruthers]

So I'm curious, when people find out that your world is the world of negotiation and conflict resolution, what do people say to you? What do people think of that? What is their response to finding that out?

[John Tregoning]

I think the general sense that we get from people is that they're a little intimidated by the process of either negotiation or conflict Res. Most people will tell you they don't like it. In fact, research will tell you 89% of people avoid it. And so we're really trying to pull people into their courage so that they can navigate difficult negotiations or difficult conflicts. Well.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, my sense is, and my experience is there's no like one right strategy for negotiating. There's no this is how you be a negotiator. Because negotiations are so varied.

[John Tregoning]

Every conversation is different. Is it contentious or collaborative? Right. The way I'm going to collaborate or negotiate with someone in a collaborative setting is going to be very different than in a contentious setting. In one setting, I might be free to express my needs and put those things on the table and say, he here's what I'm looking for and listen freely to someone else, say, hey, here's what I need. And then we talk things out. In a contentious negotiation, it's a little different in those spaces. You might have to use a number of different persuasion or influence strategies to try to either elicit truth from someone, help someone find their voice, because sometimes people know that they need something, but they don't know exactly what it is that they need. Sometimes we're competing against someone when we feel like we can't get our needs met. And so it looks very, very different depending on what we're negotiating. But generally the sense becomes the same. There's a process of Communication across the table. Both people have a perspective that needs to be heard. And at some point we're going to find some consensus about how we're going to move forward, whether we get all of what we want, some of what we want, or none of what we want. The goal is to have a conversation where we can understand those needs and see how reasonable it is to have those needs. Methods.

[Mike Carruthers]

So one of the things that happens when you're negotiating, depending on what it is, of course, but emotions seem to get in the way. People get upset, people get angry. People think you're being a jerk for wanting what you want or whatever. And those emotions can derail everything, can't they?

[John Tregoning]

They absolutely can. That's probably the biggest problem that we have when it comes to navigating difficult conversations and negotiations. It's wrestling with our own internal feelings. Because we usually go to the convers with a good sense of what we know we should do. We know we should listen well. We know we should communicate effectively, give other people an opportunity to be heard. The challenge comes in when we try to do that when we're feeling offended or unheard, misheard, misconstrued. When we're upset or angry in some way, those emotions can come in and completely derail a conversation. So the first thing that we really have to understand about negotiation is that we have to be able to regulate our own emotions on the front end so that we can navigate an effective conversation through the back end.

[Mike Carruthers]

And how, maybe an example would help of, of how you would do that in the moment.

[John Tregoning]

It's a little bit hard if you haven't practiced it. And really that's, that's the challenge here is if you show up to a fight and the first time you want to learn how to throw a punch is in the middle of a fight, you're probably not going to do too well. Understanding how to regulate emotions is a process that starts well beyond or well before rather, the actual conversation takes place. There are three things that are, that are most important when it comes to regulating emotions. Self awareness, which is how well you know yourself. Self confidence, which is how well you trust yourself. And self control, how well you control yourself. And so all of those things take practice. How well do you know who you are so that when you show up to a conversation, you're not searching for yourself? How well do you trust yourself to adhere to your beliefs and stated values? Right. If I say I'm a good person, will I maintain that good character all the way throughout a contentious conversation? If I know that I've got these particular principles and these boundaries that I don't want crossed from someone else on the other side of the conversation, am I willing to hold myself to said boundaries as well? These are all things that tend to happen. And so what we really have to do is be in tune with who we are, trust ourselves in the process, and control ourselves. That takes a lot of practice. But if we're in the moment, let's say we haven't done the work, we haven't done the practice. One of the greatest things that we can do in the moment when we recognize, hey, this is a tough conversation. And I'm not quite sure I've got the right mindset to navigate this in such a way that I'll be proud of myself when the conversation's over, giving yourself space and grace to pause and think through it and to ask for those things and say, hey, I recognize this right now. In the moment. I'm feeling stressed out. I'm feeling overwhelmed. Is it possible we could revisit this conversation? So when we give ourselves space, time, and an opportunity to regroup, we can usually come back into a conversation. And even if the emotions haven't subsided, we can at least acknowledge them, and it makes it easier for us to move through those emotions.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're talking about navigating life's difficult conversations and negotiations. And my guest is Ryan Dunlap, author of how to Untie a Balloon, A Negotiator's Guide to Avoid Popping Under Pressure. Have you ever had that experience? Well, everyone's had this experience. You buy some clothes online, they get delivered, you open it up, and then there's that wave of disappointment. The quality's poor or it doesn't fit, or the fabric's not what you thought, it's such a letdown. Well, that has never happened. When I or my wife order clothes from Quince, Quince has the kind of stuff you'll actually wear on repeat, like breathable flowknit polos, crisp cotton shirts, and comfortable, lightweight pants that somehow work for every occasion. And the best part, everything with quints is half the cost of similar brands. You see, by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quints gives you luxury clothes without the markups. Now, since I started buying clothes from Quint's, I really, I haven't bought clothes from anywhere else. And each time the clothes arrive, I. I'm always delighted and never disappointed. And you know something weird? When I tell people about how great Quince is and how I love buying clothes from them I often hear back, oh, Quince. Yeah, I shop there. I love them. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to Quince.comSYSK for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-N-C-E.comSYSK to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comSYSK losing weight is a big topic now. You see a lot of dramatic pictures in the news of celebrities and others dropping a lot of weight with these new medications and if you've looked into it yourself, you quickly get that sticker shock when you see the price. That's where hers comes in. Hers is transforming women's health care by giving you access to affordable weight loss treatment plans. Hers connects you with a medical provider who will work with you to determine the best treatment options for you. And then if prescribed, you get medication as part of a doctor developed weight loss program complete with ongoing care check ins, dosage and medication adjustments and 24. 7 online support. No additional cost. Weight loss by hers is realistic, it's not restrictive and it's very affordable. Hers provides access to both oral medication kits and GLP1 injectable options with oral medication kits starting at just $69 a month with a 10 month plan when paid up front. Start your free online Visit [e-mail] something that's f o r h e r-s.com something for your personalized weight loss treatment options. Forhers.com something weight loss by hers is not available everywhere. Compounded products are not approved or reviewed for safety, effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescription required. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased. So Ryan, let's get real specific here and talk about if you could pick like a specific negotiation or difficult conversation and then how people can best deal with it and what are the kind of problems that people run into.

[John Tregoning]

I think one of the conversations that a lot of people can really connect to here would be a conversation with a significant other or spouse where you go into a debate or a conversation. It's not a debate. It might feel like one, but you go into a conversation with a significant other and maybe it's just simply on the basis of a misunderstanding. That's the simple way a lot of conflicts happen. You had an unspoken expectation and your significant other didn't meet that expectation. And now you've got to have a conversation until someone comes up and says hey, you didn't do the thing I needed you to do. And however they said, it raises some hair on the back of your neck. And rather than meeting them where they're at and saying, oh, you know, I apologize, that wasn't my intention, maybe we defend ourselves because that's what happens with pride and ego, right? And we say, well, yeah, I might not have done that, but you didn't do this. And it becomes a blame shift, shifting conversation. A lot of times what happens is we find ourselves in these really difficult conversations because of misunderstanding or expectations that haven't been met and not clearly articulated. And so rather than escalating those tensions, we can become really, really good listeners. When someone calls something out and says, hey, you didn't meet my need this way, or you said something that hurt me in some way. Instead of protecting ourselves, which is what our natural inclination is, we do is say, hey, tell me more about that. Help me understand what it was that I did that caused you to feel the way you did. We validate those feelings first and then we offer perspective. Hey, that's not what my intentions were. Do you mind if I take a moment to explain why I did what I did or why I didn't do what I did? What is it going to take for me to help make this right? That's a lot of what conversation is. It's not just talking about what hurt me. It's being willing to listen to how we might have unintentionally hurt others without taking it personally and giving them an opportunity to express themselves, giving us an opportunity to express ourselves and trying to meet in the middle so again, so those needs can be met. And both people walk away from the conversation feeling like they've been heard, that they've been valued, and that they're appreciated.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that meet in the middle thing, I think that stumps a lot of people. Like, the purpose of negotiating is to compromise. That that's the goal is I want $100, you only want to pay 50, and we settle at 17 dol. And there there's a negotiation, but that doesn't seem right to me.

[John Tregoning]

Well, and that's not always the truth. There's a great illustration of this where in the negotiation space when we teach and train on this, it's the problem of the orange. Both people are negotiating or arguing over an orange. And the initial problem would be or solution would be to cut the orange in half and give one party half and the other party the other half. And you think that they would be equally satisfied because at least they got some Orange. The problem is, during the inquiry, you discovered that one person needed the skin of the orange for orange zest, and the other person was hungry and wanted to eat the substance in the middle. And in that space, you could actually satisfy both of their needs by giving one person 100% of the skin and the other person 100% of what was on the inside that can be consumed. So one of the challenges with negotiating is assuming that we know what the other person actually wants or needs. And so what we do is we break this down into the difference between someone's position, what they say they need, and their actual interests and needs, what they actually need. And so through conversation, if we can give ourselves to the process, we might discover that it's not 50, 50 always. It can be 100, 100. It can be win win, because we don't always fully articulate what it is that we want, because we don't always know. And so that's where dialogue comes in and makes things very, very helpful. And I can get the skin and you can get the substance, and we can both be satisfied Sometimes. Not always, but sometimes.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, when somebody says, well, what is it you really want? I think people get very protective, like, well, I don't want to show all my cards here. So they don't tell what they really want because they want to hold something back.

[John Tregoning]

There are a lot of reasons why people hold back. Sometimes there's a lack of psychological safety, or in a space like what you just suggested here, there's an adversarial approach. And so we feel like holding on to some information gives us some benefit that allows us to navigate the conversation better. Again, every negotiation is different. But I think one of the things that we have to do is recognize that every negotiation doesn't have to be contentious. And if we approach it with the mindset that sometimes, even though the other person might represent a barrier for you getting what you want, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're working against them. And there are some ways that we can use conversation and mutual appeals to connect with a person on a human level and still express the things that we fully want without losing an edge in the conversation. There are a lot of different schools of thought on this, and research goes one way or the other. Some people say, never speak first. Other schools of thought say, always speak first. Some people say, don't show all your cards. Other people say, show your cards. And really, what it comes down to, Mike, is what is your primary tactic and technique for navigating negotiation that allows you to maintain your authenticity, to approach the conversation the best way you can. For me, I'm a diplomat. I'm not going to be a person who goes into a negotiation and strong arms, anybody. And I'm more likely to put all my cards on the table and have an intellectual conversation about all of the factors, as opposed to someone who comes in and reveals a little bit, uses a communication style known as strategic ambiguity to drip a little bit of information, to try to control the tone of the conversation. But that's because I'm not good at strategic ambiguity. And if I negotiated that way, I'd fail miserably every single time. So diplomacy works for me. It might not work for all people. And the real strategy here is recognizing that there are different appropriate strategies for different problems. And this was something that we experience as hostage negotiators at any given time. I think TV makes it seem like it's just one guy or gal who shows up and tries to save the world. That's not the case. When we would show up at situations and scenes, There were usually 10 of us. We all had a different style and approach. And depending on what we were facing, we would deploy the right style and approach for that particular situation. And the same is true for us in our personal lives.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I think what you said is really important that not every difficult conversation or negotiation has to be contentious. Because I think there's a belief that it is, because that's why we're negotiating, because we disagree. We're on opposite sides of the table here. And so by definition, it's contentious.

[John Tregoning]

The context that I have for going into this is even in difficult business negotiations that. That I've been in, or difficult marital negotiations that I've been in with my wife, or life and death negotiations I've been in. Sometimes the most contentious conversation that I think I'm going to go into is really just a really big misunderstanding that is intertwined with strong emotions and feelings. And what it is is that we defend ourselves from the illusion of threat or the feeling of threat. And so we end up gearing ourselves up for this really contentious conversation where we could also spend time, energy and effort into connection and making sure that we fully understand who's on the other side of the table and what they need. And what you'll find is that you can take what started as a contingent conversation and make it very collaborative. Or it can make. Or it can remain competing. It just depends. But I'm careful to always assume that negotiations start from a place of an adversarial positioning between two sides, because it simply isn't always the case. It is sometimes. And when that happens, you do have to approach it with a different strategy. But more oftentimes than not, we can be two people on opposing teams moving towards the same goal.

[Mike Carruthers]

So can you, maybe with an example, explain how you take a contentious conversation and turn it into a collaborative conversation?

[John Tregoning]

Assuming that you are navigating a conversation with someone and you come to the table and you think you want completely different things, you might start, rather than stating your position, asking more questions. You can never go wrong with asking questions. Tell me more about what you need. What is it you're looking for? What is this going to do for you that you can't currently do? And by understanding how someone is going to use or deploy or access or benefit from whatever this thing is that we're negotiating, what it does is it equips you and arms you with the understanding of how to approach that conversation in a way that benefits you and them. Right. So what we're doing is we're building rapport. Rapport is the key that opens the door for more. We're demonstrating that we're listening and we're understanding because we're reframing and regurgitating what that person is saying in our own words. And the goal here is to be able to tell somebody else what they want so accurately that when you're done describing their side of the argument, they say, yes, absolutely, that's. That's exactly what I'm looking for. Because when people feel heard and felt and seen, their guard decreases. Right? And now you can approach that conversation, say, man, that's so good. Thank you so much for sharing. I appreciate that. Here are some things that I was looking at, or here's some things that I need. Here are some things that are going to work best for me. Here's. Here's where I think we're aligned. We focus more on where we connect rather than where we disconnect. We focus more on building bridges than building barriers. And what it does is it gives the other person an opportunity to see another potential outcome other than the principled outcome they came to the conversation with. So that by the end of the conversation, you've made an ally, not an enemy.

[Mike Carruthers]

So a common negotiation, almost everybody, I don't know, a lot of people have, is to ask for a raise. And you go into your boss and really, it's a fairly simple, simple thing on the table that you want more money, and they probably don't want to give you a Lot more money, and you'd want to get as much as you can get, but there aren't a lot of other seemingly issues on the table. It's strictly money. And how do you. When there aren't a lot of other issues, how do you discuss it?

[John Tregoning]

Yeah. So what we have to do before we go into a conversation to ask someone for a raise is we have to put ourself in their shoes. So the first question I'd ask is, what restrictions or restraints does your boss have? What are the things they can't control, and what are the lines on the field, so to speak, that they cannot move? Because it's always more than money. There's always something else happening. The boss that you're talking to may absolutely want to give you a pay raise, but their hands might be tied from hr. The other side of this, though, is that if you're going to ask for a raise, simply going to a business and saying, hey, pay me more money. Here's how much revenue you have. Take a bigger chunk and give it to me without connecting that to some benefit for the organization is really a lost cause. Most folks are going to say no. And the other side of this is people like to go in with some hostilities and say, well, I put my name in a hat for another business. They're going to pay me 20% more. And if you don't pay me a raise, and I'll take that. And that sometimes can work, work until it doesn't. Right. What I think is most important is we go in and understand what, what, what the limitations are for the person we're asking, what are the organization's goals as it pertains to the role that you're in. Go in with some information about understanding what the, the industry norm is for your particular role, to know whether or not you're at the bottom 50%, top 50%, top 10%. So you can actually speak to a number that makes sense. But I think what's really important here is understanding what's important to your supervisor. Do you have context for how they see you? Have you taken the time to ask questions about your performance and what's most important to them, where the value is? Because if you go into the conversation understanding how the organization defines value, you will recognize that there could be a gap between what they see as valuable and what you see as valuable. And the more you can shrink that gap, the more effective you're going to be at saying, I've done these things for the organization that are in alignment with what you see as valuable and because of these things and industry norms and this, that and the other thing, here's what I'm asking for.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I suspect it's safe to say that most of us are never too far away from our next difficult conversation or negotiation, whether at work or at home or somewhere out in the world. And this is really helpful advice. I've been speaking with Ryan Dunlap. He's a former police detective and hostage negotiator who's been involved in a lot of high stakes negotiations and he is author of a book called how to Untie a Balloon A Negotiator's Guide to Avoid Popping Under Pressure, and you will find a link to his book at Amazon in the show Notes thank you Ryan. I appreciate you coming on.

[John Tregoning]

That was great. I appreciate you.

[Ryan Dunlap]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies just to see if you could save some cash? Well, Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money. When you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Potential savings will vaccinate not available in all states it can be overwhelming to manage a business, especially when you're first starting out. Your to do list just keeps growing every day with new tasks and that list can easily begin to overrun your life. Finding the right tool not only helps you out, but can simplify problems you haven't even encountered yet. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify can help you easily build a beautiful online store to match your brand's style. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com realm. Go to shopify.com realm shopify.com realm.

[Mike Carruthers]

I imagine as we all get older we spend at least a little time thinking about things like how long will I live? What will I die from? What will finally get me what can I do to postpone that inevitable end as long as possible and live as well and as healthy as possible? And certainly there's no shortage of advice for any of that. But Professor John Tregoning has studied the science of all this and he is here to talk about the best ways to live long and stay healthy. John is professor of Vaccine Immunology at Imperial College London and has published over 60 academic papers. He's author of a book called Live A Curious Scientist's Guide to Wellness, Aging and Death. Hi John. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Unknown]

Hi, thanks for having me on.

[Mike Carruthers]

So explain how you came at this because you're a scientist but you're also a human being who thinks about the same things about your life as I do about mine. Like, you know, how long will I live? Were you just curious about these questions and decided to do some research? I mean, what got you going on this?

[Unknown]

Where I started was I was entering my kind of late 40s, I was beginning to creak a bit around the edges and I started worrying about, you know, how am I going to get sick, how am I going to die? And I did start looking across all these systems and I think the where it ended up was that actually relative, there's relatively little we can do to change things. There are obviously some, some key things and we can talk about those. But this idea that actually quality has a quantity of its own, that if you improve the quality of your life you can actually increase the quantity too.

[Mike Carruthers]

And when you say improve the quality of your life, you mean by doing things like what?

[Unknown]

There are some very simple things which, and the ones which will come as no surprise to many people, you know, don't smoke, do regular exercise, eat well, reduce the amount you're drinking. But I think the really key one that I ended up on is that social connectivity and, and doing things that you love with people that you love will increase the quality and quantity of your life.

[Mike Carruthers]

But the things that will get us will get us no matter what. I mean, something's going to get you at the end, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah, absolutely. Health is a sort of zero sum situation. Since we are all going to die, there is always going to be a main cause of death. That has changed over the last 150 years. It used to be that many, many more people died of infectious diseases and because of vaccination and clean water that has changed to the majority of people die of heart attacks and actually through preventative medicine and through surgery, the number of people who, the sort of proportion of people who die of heart attacks is declining and the proportion of people who say die of cancer is increasing. But there's always. Because that kind of pie chart always has to stay at 100%. Things are going to change as we get better at preventing different types of infect different types of disease.

[Mike Carruthers]

But when you look at the individual pieces of that pie, when you say cancer is increasing, is the piece of the pie increasing? Or it's only increasing because the heart disease one is decreasing?

[Unknown]

It's much more like that. So heart disease is decreasing and therefore something else has to replace it within the pie. And that's inevitable going to be the case. And I think, I guess the longer term challenge is thinking about well, what is the thing that, where we say, you know, if people are going to die, the majority of people are dying of this is, is an okay within our health care system, within our society is that is what was the kind of preferential end that we expect people to have.

[Mike Carruthers]

And in your view, what is that?

[Unknown]

The, the nicest idea I heard was this idea of health span as opposed to lifespan. So if you can increase the amount of time that you're health happy, then maybe you're increasing your lifespan is a bit less important. So if you die and you've been healthy very close to the point of death, then maybe that's, that's an okay way. And, and the challenge is because everything's so interconnected. You know, often people say, oh, having a, you know, a sudden cardiac arrest in your sleep might be the best way. But there's two bits that first is if you're having a heart attack, it's probably there are other factors in your life where there might be risk as well. So you can't like guarantee that particular way. But the other thing is it gives the people who love you less time to say goodbye. So actually if you, if I was to drop dead today, that would be an enormous shock for people to, you know, to process. Whereas if you have six months where you're still able to talk and process it, that maybe societally that's a better way.

[Mike Carruthers]

One of the things that caught my interest when I was looking at your book is the fact that there are so many things that could get us. There are so many diseases and there are so many poisons in the world and so many like, it's amazing that we're here.

[Unknown]

It's extraordinary. The human biology and biology in general is wonderfully complicated. And I'm so lucky to be a research scientist and to be pulling apart a string in the enormous kind of jumper of humanity. But because it's so complex, that means there are lots and lots of ways for it to go wrong. And you're right. The kind of extraordinary thing is that most of the time it doesn't go wrong. We have all these kind of working parts and somehow they have tolerance in them and they've evolved this tolerance so that we do survive through thick and thin.

[Mike Carruthers]

There is certainly a push and has been for a couple of decades now of, of people trying to be healthy and eating right and exercising. And then we hear all these little tricks like only eat between certain hours of the day. What do we know works?

[Unknown]

The very simple message is that if you can match calories in to exercise or expenditure out, you'll maintain a healthy weight weight. Different people need to approach that in different ways. So some people may be able to comply through exercise. I personally, the way I manage my weight is by doing more exercise rather than controlling the amount of food I take in. But other people find that doing intermittent fasting is beneficial. So they can say actually if I don't eat on these two days, or I eat less than these two days, it manages my calorie intake for the week. So that's good for them. And they then other people say would prefer to not eat breakfast. So there are different methods, but actually the simplest thing is controlling your balancing your in and out on calories. And then on top of that it's thinking about the quality of the food intake that you're having.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so talk about this idea. Cause we've heard a lot about it lately of calorie restriction, that eating thin people live longer than fat people. And I guess we maybe know that, but. But there's something more to that, isn't there?

[Unknown]

There seems to be in laboratory models. So if you look at fruit flies, if you restrict their calories, they can live longer. And the reason people use fruit flies is because they don't live very long. So you can fit more experiments into a certain amount of time. Whether that really translates into humans, but with the kind of much more complicated lives and behaviors that we have have, it's not yet clear. But the calorie restriction, the theory is that you can kind of tip the clock back or at least slow the clock of kind of degenerating or reverse damage to your body. I think personally it's within the broader category of maintaining a healthy weight for your lifestyle.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that certainly makes sense. I mean, we know that people who are very heavy have a shorter life expectancy than People who are thin. I mean, that's pretty well accepted, right?

[Unknown]

Absolutely. So the living with excess weight, living with obesity comes with a range of health risks. There's type 2 diabetes, there is putting stress on the, on the heart. There is damage potentially to the kind of. To the joints. And it is all very cumulative. So, so excess weight is definitely a problem. And losing that excess weight, however you. You can approach it and do it, is going to give you certainly an improved health span and probably lifespan as well.

[Mike Carruthers]

That seems too simple, though. It's just too simple that people want to complicate it somehow.

[Unknown]

Yeah, and I think that's the point. Right. So I think it is simple. Sorry. I think the ideas are simple. I think compliance is hard. I think changing the way we behave is difficult. So I might be sounding preachy, but. But, you know, I know that drinking beer isn't good for me, and yet I carry on drinking beer. So it's very easy for me to talk about things that I don't do and then. And act as if that's very easy to change. It's hard to change ingrained behaviors. It's hard to change the things that we kind of enjoy, even though we know they're not necessarily doing us any good.

[Mike Carruthers]

So when you say I think this confuses people, confuses me. When you say, I know drinking beer isn't good for me, what does that mean? It isn't good for you?

[Unknown]

Alcohol is a poison, and the more alcohol you drink, the more damage you do to your body. The biggest area of damage it does is to your liver, but it can also cause cancers. It increases not only in your liver, but in your guts and actually in other parts of the body. It causes inflammation and it's a sort of logarithmic scale. So 1 drink is somewhat bad, 2 is more, 3 is really bad, 4 is very bad. And it's the cumulative effects. If you're doing. If you're drinking four alcoholic drinks a day every day, you are going to do continuous damage to yourself. So we have to appreciate there is a risk to drinking alcohol. I'll say the flip side, because I do think that there's some interesting data the other way around, and that is that there is some evidence that having one drink a day maybe have some protective effect over all cause mortality. And I think that may be more to do with the social aspects between the interrelation rather than the alcohol itself.

[Mike Carruthers]

But it doesn't affect everybody the same. And I think that's baffling to some extent because there are some people who drink a lot and end up living a long time and dying of something completely unrelated. And then there are other people who drink a lot and die from the drinking or drinking related problems.

[Unknown]

And when you say drinking a lot, if you're into the sort of bottle of whiskey a day territory, you will almost certainly die in your 50s. There are certain thresholds beyond which everyone is at very high risk. But coming back to the question of why do we all know somebody or have heard of somebody who smoked and drank until they were 95 and to seems seem to be very well, is that you have to think about humanity as a very heterogeneous population. We're very, very different and diverse. And that means that different people will behave differently with different stimulation. So different kind of toxins or different poisons. And I think medicine as a discipline, we tend to think about statistical likelihoods and population. So you could look in a room of 100 people and you could say 70 of these people would be more likely to die if they do this. But that means 30 of the people who won't be. So we can like reduce it down and say this is the risk of this. What you don't know as an individual is whether you're in the 70% of people who will die if you drink heavily or the 30% who won't die. And you'll only find that out by testing it. And unfortunately testing it may well lead to you dying.

[Mike Carruthers]

What about the difference between men and women in all of this discussion? Is there much of a difference? Is there any protective benefits of being one or the other in any of these things?

[Unknown]

Yes, there is. So women are much more likely to have autoimmune conditions. So autoimmunity is where your body's immune system turns on itself and starts, starts attacking bits of your body. So things like lupus or Ms. Or type 1 of diabetes, these are all autoimmune conditions and they tend to be a bit more prevalent in women, whereas men are more like. It depends a bit on the age of the men. Young men are more likely to die of violent death or accidental death. Older men are more likely to die of heart attacks and maybe drinking and smoking related injuries. So there are some things driven by biology and some things driven by society which will affect the causes of death in men and women.

[Mike Carruthers]

When you look at the way people die or when they get sick, how much of it seems to be related to family history? Because we hear it's related. We hear there's. If you have, if your father had a heart attack, you are more likely to have a heart attack. But how much more?

[Unknown]

We are a product of our genes and our environment. The nice phrase is that in the genes load the gun, the environment pulls the trigger. And so if you say, you look at me and my father or something, and their father, if the father's died of a heart attack, some of it may be that it's environmental, that if you live in a family who has a tradition of eating too much or, you know, exposure to risk factors may be similar across families. But there is a genetic element to a lot of our health. And some conditions are very, very obviously genetically driven. So there's a disease called cystic fibrosis where the lungs are unable to pump the mucus out. They get very much damaged. And that's a single gene. And if you have that, you're going to get the, that condition. Whereas there are other things which are like, increase the risk. So the breast cancer, there's a gene associated with breast cancer called BRCA1, BRCA2. If you have those, you are more likely to get breast cancer. And so there, there's a sliding scale of things that will definitely cause disease, things that will increase your risk, and then things that if you don't expose yourself to those kind of environmental damage agents, you won't get those diseases.

[Mike Carruthers]

So as people get older, we often see that they deteriorate so that even though they're living longer, life in old age can be very difficult. Are we making any progress on that? You know, it's like that old saying about how, you know, you'd like to have more years, but you'd like to have them in your 20s and 30s and 40s rather than in your 90s and 100 hundreds.

[Unknown]

I think you can delay the onset of that frailty. And that's where the doing exercise and mixing in, you know, cardio and strengthening and stretching exercises is where reducing your exposure to risk factors, all of which will reduce frailty. But frailty is inevitable and it's kind of inbuilt into our systems. The, the, basically the bits of our body that replaces our skin, they're called stem cells that they stop producing as many cells, so your skin becomes more paper thin. The same happens in our muscles. The regenerative properties of our bodies decline, so as they get damaged and cut over time, they don't get replaced as well. So I think that is the inevitable path we're on. But we can delay the kind of damage aspects of that. And actually, if we look better into old Age care, we can improve that, we can connect people better. We can make sure that when they reach that point in their lives they are well cared for.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is life expectancy going up at all? In fact I had heard it was going down in the west, but where are we with that?

[Unknown]

It depends on the country. There is some fairly bleak data that I've seen about the USA that does say it is coming down and that's not about people into their old age. It's a increase maybe in drug related and violent death in, in the kind of 20s and 30s. So you know, there, there are, as societies change, we are going to see patterns changing. So I, I, I don't, it's quite uncertain times we're living in and I don't know where it will go.

[Mike Carruthers]

But do, where are we now? Do you know what the, what the life expectancy for men and women is?

[Unknown]

It's about 78 and probably 78 for men. 80 for women. It's pretty stable around that number.

[Mike Carruthers]

From all the research you did into this, is there one piece of advice, one thing that came out of that that you think you really want to emphasize to people?

[Unknown]

I think I come back to the social element. I think in the end, I think one of the things that I kind of learned as I was researching the book is to do things that link cognitive, social and physical together and you get much more synergistic benefits. So going dancing because you're thinking about what you're doing, because you're moving because you're with people is really good for you. So look for activities that combine physical and social and cognitive and you'll get much more benefits from doing those.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I like your idea of health span rather than just lifespan that, that it's not always just about how long you live, but how well you live into your old age and then the steps you take to get there. I've been speaking with John Tregoning. He is a professor of vaccine immunology at Imperial College London and author of the book Live A Curious Scientist Guide to Wellness, Aging and Death. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Professor, thank you for this discussion.

[Unknown]

Okay, lovely to speak to you.

[Mike Carruthers]

Writing a business email is different than writing a personal email, especially when it comes to the use of emotions. And according to Inc. Magazine, there are a few things we should stop doing. First of all, expressing fake concern. Many business emails, especially to strangers, will begin with sentences like I hope you're well. The implication is I've now expressed interest in you, so therefore you're now obligated to read the rest of this message. However, the recipient knows you don't really care about him or her as a person, so the phrase comes off as fake and manipulative. It would be better to just get to the point or Discussing your own emotions. Today's social media centric culture has strengthened the belief that expressing your emotions makes you seem more authentic, more real, and therefore more credible in business. However, nobody really cares about your emotions unless you're actually friends, so it's best to drop emotions out of what you write. Instead of saying, I would be delighted to speak with you personally about this and would love to tell you more, it would be better to say, are you open to a brief telephone call to discuss this? And that is something you should know. I would love to read your review of this podcast and all you have to do is post it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox. Wherever you listen, we read them, we appreciate them, and having a lot of reviews helps us. So please leave a rating and review when you have a moment. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Unknown]

You might think you know fairy tales and you might think that they are cute and sweet and boring, but the real Grimm fairy tales were not cute at all. They were very dark and they were often very grim. On Grim Grimmer Grimmest, we tell a grim fairy tale to a bunch of kids. Perfect for car rides or screen free entertainment. Grim Grimmer Grimmest activates kids imaginations and instigates fun conversations because fairy tales speak to all of us at a very deep, primal level and they raise interesting topics and questions that are worth chewing over together as a family. Every episode is rated Grim, Grimmer or Grimmest so you, your kids, your whole family can choose. What is the right level of grim for you? Though, if you're listening with Grandma, she's just gonna go for Grimmest. Trust me on this one. Tune in to Grim Grimmer Grimme and our new season.

[Ryan Dunlap]

Available now from the podcast that brought you to each of the last lesbian bars in the country. And back in time, through the sapphic history that shaped them, comes a brand new season of cruising beyond the bars. This is your host, Sarah Gabrielli and I've spent the past year interviewing history making lesbians and queer folks about all kinds of queer spaces. From bookstores to farms to line dancing and mud.

[John Tregoning]

For 11 years, every night women slept.

[Unknown]

Illegally on the common.

[John Tregoning]

We would move down to the West Indies to form a lesbian nation.

[Mike Carruthers]

Meg Kristen coined the phrase women's music, but she would have liked to say.

[John Tregoning]

It was lesbian music.

[Mike Carruthers]

And that's kind of the origins of the Combaheever Collective.

[Ryan Dunlap]

You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes air every other Tuesday, starting February 4th.