William von Hippel (5:54)

Hi. It's great to talk to you, Mike.

Mike Carothers (5:56)

So let's start with an explanation of what this paradox is between autonomy and connection and why it's important. And let me just have you explain that.

William von Hippel (6:07)

So the paradox is that the two most fundamental needs that humans evolved are the need for connection and the need for autonomy. And the need for connection comes from both of these happened after we left the rainforest about 6 million years ago. So I, I can't tell you exactly when, of course, but somewhere in the ensuing few million years, as we moved to the savannah, we evolved a strong need for connection because that's how we stayed safe. We cooperated with each other, we worked together to drive away predators and then eventually to become the, you know, apex predator on the planet. So connection is our most fundamental need. But secondarily, we also evolved a need for autonom. And by autonomy, I mean self governance, choosing your own path in life. Now the problem is connection is all about cooperating and friendship and relationships. And that means putting your own needs aside sometimes. Whereas autonomy is all about self governance and what suits you the best, which means sometimes you have to put your relationships aside. So the consequences that these two needs are, two most fundamental needs are in permanent tension with each other. And the key is finding a balance that allows us to be happy. That's the social paradox.

Mike Carothers (7:18)

And can you give me an example, a quick example or two, of the social paradox in life and in action?

William von Hippel (7:26)

Sure. So let's, let's talk about rich people versus poor people. And we could talk about, there's a million examples. So you tell me anything that's interesting to you. We could go in that direction. But here's a classic example. Poor people need each other. They live in these dense networks of interdependence because they're barely getting by. And so if they want someone to house sit their dog, they can't afford to hire it out. They have to ask friends to do that. If they need a new tool because, because theirs broke or they don't have the right one, they have to borrow one. They can't just go to the shops and buy one. And so poor people are densely interconnected with each other and they tend to get together with their neighbors several times a week on average. Rich people, in contrast, are not interconnected with each other. They don't need each other at all. Rich people often don't even know their neighbors. And if they run out of their favorite coffee beans, they can drone a latte in. They don't need to go over to their neighbors and borrow it and create a conversation, et cetera. And so the consequence is that rich people keep making decisions in their life about what, what suits them the best. And in making these decisions, they're continually cutting off connections Such that in the end, poor people actually spend much more time with their friends than rich people do. Which, if you think about it, it's ironic given that the point of being rich really would be to have total freedom, which you ought to use for social connection. Now, how do we know this? There's a bunch of evidence for rich people spending less time with their friends, but you could say, well, that's what they want to do, right? I mean, people are voting with their feet, they know what's best for them. But actually, the data suggest otherwise. And I'll give you one key data point if, if you look at how often people attend religious services. So now we've got something that you do if you believe in God, but of course you don't do if you don't believe in God or don't believe that God wants you to attend services. So people tend to attend services for reasons not to do with their social goals, but reasons to do with their religious goals. And what we find is that attending services has a huge impact on happiness. It makes people much happier if they go to religious services a few times a week than if they only go, you know, once a week or even once every few months. More importantly, however, the effect of attending religious services on happiness is greater for rich people than it is for poor. Rich people get more bang for the buck out of going to services than poor people do because they've cut themselves off from their other connections. And so in countless different domains, wealth is just one of them. We tend to cut off our connections when in fact, those are what make us happy.

Mike Carothers (9:46)

And do we know that?

William von Hippel (9:50)

Do we?

Mike Carothers (9:50)

In other words, do rich people who cut themselves off realize they've cut themselves off and are therefore unhappy about it? Or do they think, well, I'm a rich person and that's what we rich people do.

William von Hippel (10:04)

No, they don't know. The irony is that. And we can come back to talking about why this is if you'd like. But the irony is that we've evolved to continually grab autonomy whenever we have the chance to do so. And so every individual decision that the rich person is making makes perfect sense. It's what makes them happier in the moment. But the long term cost is huge. It makes them layless, way less happier in the longer term. We see this in countless domains. It's not just rich and poor. So, for example, in 1840, about 10% of humanity lived in cities. Cities are about 5,000 years old. That's when the first proper city existed 5,000 years ago in the, In Mesopotamia. And so, you know, it took in 5,000 years. Slowly, 10% of humanity, all of the world, moved to cities. Well, in 1840, Americans started moving to cities en masse. And by 1900, the rest of the world started moving to cities en masse, Such that by 2007, half of the world lived in cities. So we're now in a world where more than half of humans live in cities, whereas just 150 or so years ago, only 10% lived in cities. Now, given that half of all of humanity's move to cities, you'd say, oh, well, cities must make you happy, right? Cities certainly provide autonomy. They give us opportunities, they allow us to make our own choices in a much bigger way than the country does. But ironically, they actually make us less happy. People who live in the country are happier than people who live in the city, even though all of humanity is moving to city.

Mike Carothers (11:26)

And yet, in that case, it is an either or. There are, you could say, the suburbs, where they're not. It's not rural, it's not little towns, but it's not big cities either. It's kind of somewhere in the middle. And what about those people?

William von Hippel (11:42)

Yeah, that's a great question. It turns out somewhere in the middle is a perfect way to describe that people in the suburbs are somewhere in the middle with regard to their happiness. They're somewhere in the middle with regard to most of these things. Now, if you look at, you know, why would people in cities be happier? In principle, there's more opportunity for connection in cities than there is in countries, because, you know, in cities, you're cheek by jowl with a gazillion other people. Whereas if you live in the country, your nearest neighbor could be a quarter mile away. Well, it turns out that if you ask people in the country and in the city and in the suburbs, do you know somebody who you trust with your house keys? Like, in other words, do you have a really close friend who you can really count on? People in the country are most likely to say yes, then the suburbs, then the cities.

Mike Carothers (12:21)

And so if you gave all you took a bunch of poor people and gave them a million dollars, would they become more autonomous and leave their friends behind? I mean, what's the desire?

William von Hippel (12:34)

Yeah, they would do that. And the sad truth is they shouldn't, but they would. And so if you look at lottery winners, they're our best example of what happens, right? There's somebody who was just meandering through life, and then suddenly an outside force, random chance, gave them a million dollars or more. And when, when that happens, they typically end up less happier than they were before, even though we know that rich people are happier on average than poor people. And a big part of the reason they end up less happy than they were before is they sever a lot of their connections. So let's say that I used to be a roofer. I'm out on the hot roof every day, you know, with my fellow roofers, putting on shingles and things like that. So now I win millions of dollars. Why would I want to go out in that terrible weather on top of somebody's roof when I don't have to? Well, what I forget is that all my friends do that. I'm tightly connected to those people. And so they make decision after decision about what they want to do right now without stepping back and thinking about, well, what's the actual long term cost to my connections with the end result that they typically, even though money makes us happy, they typically end up less happy or certainly no more happy than prior to winning gazillions of dollars.

Mike Carothers (13:40)

We're discussing this social paradox, the need for autonomy and the need for social connection. My guest is William Von Hippel. He's author of the book the Social Autonomy Connection and why We Need Both to Find Happiness.

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William von Hippel (16:33)

Yes. So there's competing forces here. And so let me put it in context. So, first of all, a big part of what makes human beings happy is status. And it's too bad, but we've evolved to want to always be at the top of our heat because that's our best chance of getting someone to choose us as a mate, getting somebody to want us to be on their team, to be our friend, et cetera. And so when we look at rich people being happier than poor people, it's not money per se that makes them happy, it's the status that comes with it. And so if we look, for example, in the United States over the last 70 years, we can see that Americans now are about three times richer in real terms than they used to be. They're three times more purchasing power, and arguably five to 10 times, if you measure it, taking into account some of the modern conveniences like computers and things. But if you. And. And so in principle, that should make us happier because we've gotten a lot richer. But it doesn't. Life satisfaction, on average in America, happiness is exactly where it's been for the last 70 years. But what does happen? And at any one point in time, rich people tend to be happier than poor people. Now, the effect isn't huge, but the effect is clearly there. And so then you'd say, well, wait a minute, but you're saying that poor people have better connections. They do. And so we can look at it in a variety of ways, and we can see cases where you can undo that. So let's take, for example, poor people who attend services, a poor Person. Rich people are happier than poor people. But a poor person who attends religious services regularly is happier than a rich person who never goes. So the social effects of going to church regularly, even for somebody who has pretty good connections because they're tied in tightly with their neighborhood, that those social connections they gain are more important than all the wealth that the rich person has.

Mike Carothers (18:19)

So what is it about religious services that has this effect?

William von Hippel (18:24)

Well, we know that it's not simply the act of believing in God because we can pull that apart by looking at, well, what happens among people who never go to services but pray or don't pray. And that's a really good way of looking at people who believe versus who don't believe. And we know believe believing is important because lots of people who don't believe in God feel that life is meaningless and they, they're struggling and they feel kind of lost. Now not everybody feels that way, but lots do. People who have religion hardly ever feel that way. They feel that life has meaning and purpose and that religion provides them that meaning and purpose. So the mere act of prayer we can, you know, knowing effort, therefore evidence that you believe we can see it makes people happier, but it doesn't have nearly the effect of going to services. And so what the data suggest is that if somebody can get you to socialize, if they can push you and hang out with lots of other people who are like minded in at least some ways, who are going to be friendly to you, that's the best thing that we can do for your happiness.

Mike Carothers (19:21)

But has anybody looked at going to services versus joining a bowling league or going to the Moose or something?

William von Hippel (19:28)

Yeah. So yes and no. Americans used to be members of all sorts of service organizations. So when I was a kid, my best friend's dad was a member of the Lions Club or Elks or you know, one of those clubs. And lots of dads were, lots of parents were. And that in the 19, up until the 1950s, these were, these service organizations were very popular and people went to them regularly and they socially interacted in those contexts because that was an important part of American civic life. But those service organizations have by and large disappeared. That, you know, most people don't even know these clubs anymore, much less do they join them. So things like social media and, and these other modern things have replaced them. The data suggests that it doesn't have to be services. There's nothing special about that. But there is something special about this. Regularly getting together in person, face to face with other people.

Mike Carothers (20:21)

What is the point of all of this, I mean, it's clearly fascinating, but what do we do with this? And therefore what?

William von Hippel (20:29)

Yeah, therefore what? That's a great question. So for me, the what is, you need to understand the problem if you want to try to fix it. And for me, the problem is this, you know, in the history of humanity up until recently, I know it's 10,000 years, but up until recently by, from an evolutionary perspective, all of us were hunter gatherers. And hunter gatherers live very difficult lives. The classic version of hunter gathering is immediate return, which means that you eat today what you kill today. And those people don't even save for tomorrow. They don't. If you kill something, everybody eats it that night and chances are it's just gone. Every day they have to go out there and try again to find something to eat. So these are people who have no savings, live in a premedical world where they buried more 40% approximately of their children on average. So they, they lost lots of their own children before they ever came close to reaching adulthood. And they had, their sources of entertainment were few and far between. They sat around and chatted with each other, invented a few games, but certainly didn't have television or didn't go skiing, didn't play golf. You know, all the things that we take for granted now that we enjoy. So they didn't have safety, they didn't have comfort, they didn't live in temperature controlled homes, none of those things. And yet here's the remark fact, the data all suggest that they were happier than we are. So how could it be that somebody who has so little and who suffers so much could be happier than us who have so much and suffer so little? And I think the answer to that question comes in that their connections, they found a much better balance between autonomy and connection than we do now. So their connections were regular and every day, and our connections just aren't anymore.

Mike Carothers (22:05)

But it doesn't seem like you have to go back to hunter gatherer days thousands and thousands of years ago to see a difference. There's a difference between today and 50 years ago or 100 years ago.

William von Hippel (22:19)

Absolutely, you're absolutely right. In one sense it's a very old problem. In another sense, it's actually a very recent problem as well. And so even as recently as the 1960s and 70s, people in cities tended to be quite close to their neighbors people, technology and wealth has made us much more independent of each other than we used to be. And so we're now much more autonomous agents. We saw each other all the Time, you know, the. A milkman delivered milk to my door when I was a child. Nobody gets that anymore. There's a million ways in which we interacted with each other, even in. In the 60s and 70s, that we just don't do anymore. And so the. The problem is, is as old as agriculture, right? It's. Well, not as old. It's. The problem is sin cities, really. But in fact, the problem's gotten much worse in the last few generations. And so if we look at. At the 1970s, for example, we could see that about 30% of people across the board, across the economic spectrum, in the 1970s, about 30% of Americans got together with the neighbors two or three times a week. Their neighbors, not just other friends, but their neighbors. And only about one in five. So one in three Americans got together their neighbors regularly every week, and one in five hardly ever got together with them at all. Now it's switched in just 50 years. Now only one in five Americans gets together regularly with their neighbors, and about a third of them almost never do it all. And that one in five is more likely to be people who are poor than people who are rich.

Mike Carothers (23:47)

Well, see, that. That's something that I have always wondered about because I can remember growing up there was that neighborhood, and I grew up in the suburbs in Connecticut, and neighbors were social with each other. You know, we. My mother used to walk into the back door of the house next door just unannounced for coffee in the morning every once in a while and. And we had parties together and that same neighborhood. That never happens anymore.

William von Hippel (24:16)

Yeah, and that's. I believe, I don't know it, because nobody knows exactly why these cultural things happen, but the data suggests that this is a function of technology and wealth, that as you get wealthier and you get more technology, you start just separating from your neighbors. And so, like, for example, I was walking down the street the other day in a construction site. I live in Australia now, so I'm in Brisbane. I'm walking by a construction site. When I walked by construction sites when I was a kid in the 70s or 60s, everybody's sh. It's. If it's break time, they're all schmoozing with each other, having a good time, laughing and telling stories. Now when I walk by them, the guys are all sitting in a line. They're next to each other, but they're all ignoring each other, looking at their phones. And so those tight connections that we had in a. More. In a world that was not as technologically based as it is now those tight connections are largely disappearing. We rarely walk into our neighbors homes anymore unless we live in the country.

Mike Carothers (25:13)

Right, right. And then it does seem that in the smaller the community, the more social and the more everybody knows.

William von Hippel (25:20)

Everybody, they know, everybody knows. There's a downside. They're in everybody's business. And so if you have an affair, it's going to go through the town really fast. But the upside is they're tightly connected. They, they, they are not surprised when somebody walks into their kitchen door and just sits down at the counter. Whereas that would boggle my mind if my neighbor did that.

Mike Carothers (25:39)

But it isn't just, I mean, the technology problem. I get that. And I've always been so fascinated by and disturbed by the fact that when you see people together who are on their phones with somebody else, why are they together? But I remember, I think I may have mentioned this on another episode or a similar topic, but I remember having a conversation with someone who I knew and I said, I met this guy and he lives on your street. Do you know him? And she said, I make it a point not to know my neighbors. And I thought, what an odd, what is the benefit of that? Why? And I didn't really get an answer, but what a strange, I thought that was a very strange outlook on life that make sure you don't know your neighbors.

William von Hippel (26:33)

It is, but it's, it's sort of understandable if autonomy is paramount. If you don't want people in your business, then you want your friendships to be elsewhere. You want your romantic relationships to be elsewhere. Because if you start dating the person too who has this down and it ends badly, you've got an awkward situation whenever you see them. If you are tight with your neighbors and then they expect things from you when you're busy and you don't want to deliver, you've got an awkward situation. And you can avoid that awkwardness by just making sure your friends are elsewhere. And in a way that's a good thing because it does give you more autonomy, but the cost is huge. If you make it a point not to know your neighbors, you're literally making it a point to disconnect yourself. And we know very clearly the data show that makes us unhappy.

Mike Carothers (27:13)

Well, as I said at the very beginning here, this is an interesting topic that I don't think people ever think about this difference between autonomy and social connection and why we need to balance them. I don't think people take this into account.

William von Hippel (27:29)

Yeah, it's a super interesting societal change. And by the way, it's not universal. If you look at lots of countries in the world, people still get together with neighbors just like Americans did in the 50s and 60s and even into the 70s. It's just that in wealthier countries that are becoming more urban, we're seeing this very clearly. But lots of parts of the world have the advantage that this, this isn't happening. They don't have this problem yet.

Mike Carothers (27:53)

I wonder if even in small communities where people were more social, if even they are less, they're still more social, but they're less, more social because of technology and other things.

William von Hippel (28:06)

Yeah, that's a great question. I have to admit. I don't know. I've not been able to find those data, but it's a great question and I suspect you're right. I suspect that even people who live at least in well connected countries like the US and countries like the US that are very mobile, I suspect that even the smaller town folks on average are a little bit less connected to each other than they were 40, 50 years ago, despite the fact that they're way more connected than they're in cities.

Mike Carothers (28:34)

Well, I find it interesting that you don't hear people lamenting about the loss of social connection. I don't hear people saying, I wish we got together with the neighbors more often. I wish that somehow we've grown accustomed to this. And I think for many people it seems all right. In other words, if you don't perceive a problem, then there's nothing to solve.

William von Hippel (28:58)

Lots of people think, well, okay, we're not getting together with our neighbors as much, but does that really matter? Because neighborhood neighbor, I've got my wife and my close family members. But ironically, the data show. Actually, it's not ironic, it's merely a fact that the data also show that we're not spending as much time with our spouses even anymore. So we're literally moving away from everyone. And we don't know why that is. We, we don't know why people are getting more alone time. We know that this isn't what we evolved to do. We're a very gregarious species. We're meant to be together. But I suspect, but don't know that part of what's happening is that there's so many sources of entertainment and work and opportunity that we like. Let's say that my spouse and I both loved to exercise in the 1970s. We would. There's only a few ways to exercise. We would go run together or go to the gym together. Now there's 4,000 ways to exercise. And she says, I'd rather do Pilates. And I'm like, like, oh, I want to do hiit training. And so we just do what we each individually want to do and go our separate ways. And so it's not just with people who are kind of peripheral in our lives. It's also with people who are the most important to us across the board. We're spending more alone time and it's just not a good thing.

Mike Carothers (30:09)

Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation because it's opened up my eyes. I mean, this is something I've never really thought much about, this social paradox. But clearly it's a thing and it's important to understand it. I've been talking to William von Hippel. He's author of the book the Social Autonomy Connection and why We Need Both to Find Happiness. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. William, thanks. You've been here before and every time we talk it's always interesting. Thanks.

William von Hippel (30:39)

Thank you. It's fun to chat.

Mike Carothers (30:42)

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Jennifer Tates (35:05)

Hi, Mike. It's great to talk to you.

Mike Carothers (35:07)

So talk about human stress, why we do it the way we do it, why it affects us the way it does.

Jennifer Tates (35:14)

You know, Mike, a huge downside to being human is that we have a knack for taking stress and majorly multiplying it. I mean, we take something that's somewhat stressful or very stressful and then we add on to that thinking even worse than what's actually happening. And the more that we think in ways that just disempower us, our body does a number on us, and then we easily judge our body's response. Then we cope in ways that totally backfire. It's like you're stressed about a work demand, and then you start procrastinating or trying to get things perfect in a way that prevents you from getting the deadline met, or you feel like you need to fall asleep at night. And rather than, you know, having faith in your body, you tell yourself if you don't fall asleep right now, tomorrow is going to be terrible, which just makes you tense. And then maybe you pick up your phone, and then there's no way that sleep is going to come. So there is very real stress in the world. But we, in our. In and in our lives, of course, especially right now. But we have a knack, unfortunately, for just taking it and making it that much worse and then spreading it all around us, making the people around us also experience what we're feeling and feeling like we're dumping it and making it contagious.

Mike Carothers (36:30)

Well, that sounds horrible.

Jennifer Tates (36:32)

It's. It's kind of upsetting, but it's also incredibly liberating because if we appreciate the stress cycle of knowing what our minds do that makes things that much worse and appreciating this habit of overthinking and ruminating and how that takes something that was upsetting for a couple minutes and makes it stressful for hours and days and years, or taking something ambiguous and making it that, you know, horrible. We can free ourselves. There's so many ways we can free ourselves at different points, whether with our minds in our bodies or through behavior. So we don't spread stress to the people that we care about and take work stress and lead to turn that into relationship stress, well, it makes you.

Mike Carothers (37:11)

Wonder why we do that in the first place. I mean, what. What purpose does it serve?

Jennifer Tates (37:16)

I think as people, we. You know, there's a famous book called why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. I think as people, we have this knack for thinking and overthinking and getting lost in language that just makes things super judgmental and chaotic. But again, if we understand what we're doing, we can entirely change our relationship and improve our quality of life.

Mike Carothers (37:39)

Well, I imagine. And you and I were talking before the conversation started about the fires in California, because we're both close by. If you've lost your house, if you've lost everything, as I have friends who have, have. I can't imagine many Things more stressful than that. I can't imagine making it worse in your mind than it really is. But maybe you do, because maybe you think this is the end of the world when in fact, you know, people adapt and recover and move on.

Jennifer Tates (38:09)

I just want to start by normalizing. I. I can't begin to imagine the pain that people are going through. And I actually can sort of imagine because I'm working with people that have lost their homes, and so the pain is really, really real. But telling yourself not only did you lose your house, but you're also living through an apocalypse is just taking it and making it so much bigger than what is. And I'm also really profoundly moved by people's resilience. I just actually saw a client last night who lost her house. And I have a daughter similar age to her daughter. And I ran over to where she's staying and brought her some clothes. And I was struck by her resilience. And she said something that I don't know if I could have had the courage to say, but, like, thank God if we're alive and home is where the people that you love are. And of course, emotions come in waves, and they're certainly going to be expected to be waves of tremendous grief and loss and panic. But also there are waves of being able to enjoy a meal with loved ones sitting across from you, even if it's not in your home, and appreciation for the people around that are trying to help. And humans are notoriously bad. It's what's called effective forecasting, or predicting how they'll feel in the future. And people ultimately are able to cope with difficult things far better than their minds let on.

Mike Carothers (39:30)

Yeah. I have found when I stop myself, and I imagine most people have had this experience that you can really work yourself up into a. You know, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. But if you stop and think about it, you know, so you won't even be thinking about this a week from now or two weeks from now, but in this moment, it feels like the end of the world.

Jennifer Tates (39:55)

It feels like the end of the world. And one thing that we can all do is, you know, half of the time we're not in this moment. We're thinking about something that happened in the past or something that's going to happen in the future. But we know that the more present we are, the more likely we are to be happier. And 50% of the time, our mind is going elsewhere. But if we can come back, anchor ourselves, feel our feet on the ground. What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What am I doing? We can feel a lot more able to manage and navigate. And I think the people that are really. And again, I don't want to minimize. This is a really big thing that people will be thinking about for years and decades and maybe for the rest of our lives. But even if someone does go through a traumatic event, I'm blown away by something that, you know, exercises that I do with my patients that significantly improve PTSD in a matter of five sessions. And so there are things to do that are different than what we might normally do that can offer hope even in the hardest of times.

Mike Carothers (40:56)

It does seem that there are people who handle stress better than others. Just like naturally, they just seem to have that water off a duck's back kind of approach to life that nothing bothers them. And then there are other people at the end of the spectrum who take everything as if it's just the worst. And is it worth trying to move your position on that spectrum before we even get into exercises to help?

Jennifer Tates (41:27)

Absolutely. So I talk about first and foremost our stress mindset, what we make of our ability to cope with both stress and emotions. If we believe that we can't cope, that it's just too much, I can't. And that our body stress response is going to kill us, that we're going to, you know, heart palpitations mean that we're at risk of heart disease and premature death. That does a number to us that becomes a negative self fulfilling prophecy. But believing that you can cope, the most common measure of stress is actually called the perceived stress scale. If you believe you can cope and that your body's stress response is serving you, it's helping you prepare for action and it's adaptive, then that actually just learning those two things that you can cope with stress and your body is on your side dramatically helps people, reduces our cortisol correlates with being able to persist in more challenging goals.

Mike Carothers (42:24)

I'm sure everyone has had the experience of being in a very stressful situation and getting so involved and consumed by the stressful situation and how you're responding to it that you later look back and go, what was that all about? Why was I so stressed? Why did I react the way I did? I wish I hadn't done that. And so I'm wondering if you could talk about some first aid in the moment, things that people can do. And sure, you have to remember to do them and make yourself do them. But some things in that moment of stress when Things really feel out of control that you can could grab onto and try to do. That would really help. Sure.

Jennifer Tates (43:10)

So there's so many things and this is why I love this topic because different things work for different people. But a couple first aid things that come to mind and I love this question is even, you know, we all get spam emails and we get robocalls and we just ignore them, right? We just hit do not disturb or we have a junk sorter that we don't even, it doesn't even meet our guy our eyes or we don't even get lose any focus to it. But oftentimes when we're upset, we fail to realize that we're in our own kind of spam in, in the pile of our own spam. We all metaphorically and somewhat literally have different states of mind. And when we're feeling intense emotions or going through something very difficult. It's human nature to be an emotion mind. An emotion mind is different than reasonable mind. And simply noticing, I'm in emotion mind, it's the middle of the night, I woke up, I'm thinking really anxious thoughts rather than getting into the exact anxious thoughts and trying to refute them or distract yourself from them, just telling yourself, I'm in emotion mind. This is a junk call. This is a spam email. I am just an emotion mind. And then you can kind of more readily untangle rather than trying to like, you know, respond to something that's ridiculous. So that's one option is calling out emotion mind, which can help people from this noxious habit of getting lost in these ruminations and you know, telling other people all the things that are going wrong that just makes them feel even more real. Another one that I really like is creating a hope kit. It sounds simple, but literally collecting a few objects that give you a sense of perspective. You know, if you have a picture of some loved ones or a song that really reminds you of better times, or a card someone left you having a collection of things that widens your focus. So if you get a disappointing email or you learn that something that you worked for didn't happen, instead of being narrowly focused in such a painful, myopic way on all the things that are going wrong, a broader sense of all the things that are going right. I mean, I could easily, if I worked on something and it didn't, you know, an article or something and then something an editor didn't like it, just realizing, okay, I have, you know, beautiful healthy children and that's what actually, of course there's Room to validate. Of course I'm disappointed, but when our mind plays these tricks on us, like, life's not fair to have kind of a wider, wider perspective. And a hope kit can really do that. And there's a lot of research that has found that even for people with cancer or that feel very, very depressed, having a hope kit can actually create real hope.

Mike Carothers (45:52)

One more.

Jennifer Tates (45:53)

Oh, Mike, there's so many to choose from. One more is doing the opposite. A lot of times we feel stressed and we act in ways that stress us out further. We feel stressed and we send a grumpy text, or we procrastinate or we cancel plans. We decide we just don't have time to see friends for dinner. But a very powerful thing is actually doing what you would do if you felt differently. A lot of times we wait to feel differently, to do differently. But the only way to actually change how you feel is to change how you live. And so if you feel, like, sluggish, I don't want to go to the gym class today because I'm tired and I'm in a bad mood. That you will perpetuate your bad mood by skipping the things that, you know, generally nourish you. And some people try this, but don't do it all the way. And we need to do this all the way. If you're trying to get some work done, but also checking your email throughout and telling yourself you're gonna do a bad job, so why bother? You're not gonna be able to actually cross the thing off your list. But I love opposite action. I think it works all around whether you're feeling grumpy with your spouse and acting in ways that perpetuate feeling grumpy, because then they're grumpy towards you and it keeps you in a vicious cycle. But we could all interrupt vicious cycles with virtuous ones by changing our behaviors in more positive directions.

Mike Carothers (47:13)

Yeah, I love that one. And I try that one frequently. That, you know, you should probably do the thing you exact exactly feel you shouldn't do or wouldn't do, because that's what's going to make you feel better. Because you should go out to dinner even though you don't feel like it. And when you do, you'll feel better.

Jennifer Tates (47:31)

Yeah. And even if you don't immediately feel better, you're setting in motion the steps to start to live better.

Mike Carothers (47:38)

What is it that goes on when people get in those kind of panicky modes? Road rages, perhaps a stereotypical example. But you know, you get so upset, you get so stressed out and later you, you look back and go, what the hell was that about? What? Why did I, Why did I get so upset? Why did I get it so upset?

Jennifer Tates (48:02)

You know, emotion mind, when we're, Our emotions are intense, the limbic system is on fire and we just cannot think clearly and we really zoom in and we have a hard time with perspective. Which is why I like these exercises that just quickly really help us see I'm in a motion mind. Let me get some perspective. Let me listen to this podcast. Rather than focusing on the driver that cut me off, we get flooded. But people are also incredibly good at getting better in just minutes. Like literally minutes through small things. It's like little wheels on a big suitcase. You don't need something big outside of yourself. Listening to a song on the radio or relaxing your face, face and your grip on the steering wheel can automatically give you a little bit more spaciousness. So we can easily rev ourselves up, but we could also choose to reset our minds and bodies and act in ways that help people.

Mike Carothers (48:54)

Often I've heard the advice when you're stressed out is to write it down, to write down your thoughts and what's bothering you, that that somehow has a magical effect.

Jennifer Tates (49:05)

There are a couple things about that that I like. I like something called worry time, which is when rather than having worry as an all day ticker brain, that's just you're kind of doing something, but there's a lot of energy and space taken up by worries. You could batch your worries and save them for another time, maybe write them down for 20 minutes later in the day, so more of the day you're present and then you have this time to actually sit with them. And there's also something called expressive writing, which is a specific way of writing with a beginning, middle and an end and really going deeper into your feelings. A lot of times we're just kind of scratching the surface and not really addressing how we really feel. And actually one way to significantly reduce this habit of overthinking is writing about something. If something's really upsetting to you, rather than just telling yourself. A lot of things that people are upset about are very real. It's not just thoughts to sing, but they're real pains and losses and disappointments. If you write about that, you can give yourself a little bit of closure. You can actually process what feels splintered and messy. And in studies where people were asked to write for 30 minutes a day for, sorry, 20 minutes a day for three days, six months later, they had reductions in depression and rumination. And so there's something about putting it down that helps you kind of close it out.

Mike Carothers (50:26)

Anything else or any real magic trick that we haven't talked about that really seems to resonate with people that you can share. Share.

Jennifer Tates (50:36)

It's all a magic trick. I mean, it's all a magic trick. Like even in this moment, just taking a minute to appreciate that you're able to enjoy your senses, look at the sights in front of you and the sounds that you're listening to right now. I mean, there's so much magic. And I think also just remembering a huge aspiration is to just not make things worse and a hard time by not making things worse, by not taking something annoying that happened during your day and dumping it on your kid or making it a reason to derail from your health goals. Not making things worse will automatically make things better and also come with this priceless feeling of knowing that you can count on yourself regardless of what shows up in your life. And I think that's really what peace of mind is, is knowing that you can make things better in very difficult times, not just for you, but for the people around you.

Mike Carothers (51:26)

Well, that is some great advice. And this is the perfect conversation for a podcast because people can go back and listen and rehear what you said and get your advice again and implement it into their lives. Jennifer Tates has been my guest. She is a clinical psychologist and assistant clinical professor in psychiatry at ucla. The name of her book is Stress how to soothe your body and mind in Minutes, and there's a link to that book in the show notes. Jennifer, thanks.

Jennifer Tates (51:56)

Thanks Mike. It's been a real pleasure. I'm so grateful that we had the time to talk.

Mike Carothers (52:04)

When you're writing a document on your computer, what font do you use most often? Some fonts are more attractive than others and size counts. Research from Wichita State University revealed which fonts people find most appealing. Georgia and Times New Roman were rated the most attractive, while Aries, Courier and Veranda were considered the easiest and most legible fonts. There is a font called Comic Sans and you'll probably find it in your list of fonts that you have. Comic Sans came in last place. Size seems to matter too. People like Times New Roman when it was bigger. People liked veranda in a 10 point size and Ariel in a 12. And that is something you should know. If you had a podcast and I listened to it all the way to the end like you just did, I would probably tell people about your podcast. So I'm going to ask you to do the same thing. Tell people about my podcast and ask them to listen. Send them the link. It's really easy to do. There's a share button somewhere on the app that you're using. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. No.

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Jennifer Tates (54:22)

Hello, I am Kristen Russo. And I am Jenny Owen Youngs. We are the hosts of Buffering the Vampire Slayer. Once more with spoilers. A rewatch podcast covering all 144 episodes of you guessed it, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We are here to humbly invite you to join us us for our fifth Buffy prom, which, if you can believe it, we are hosting at the actual Sunnydale High School. That's right. On April 4th and 5th, we will be descending upon the campus of Torrance High School, which was the filming location for Buffy's Sunnydale High, to dance the night away to 90s music in the iconic courtyard, to sip on punch right next to the Sunnydale High fountain, and to nerd out together in our prom bed. Best inside of the set of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. All information and tickets can be found@bufferingcast.com prom come join us.