Julia Baird (5:56)

Thanks so much for having me.

Garrett Graff (5:58)

So do we have Any idea when people first started looking up and going, gee, I wonder if anybody else is out there or some other creature or, ooh, what's that over there? And when people first started getting interested in what you would call a ufo.

Julia Baird (6:16)

So I have to imagine that this is a question, you know, sort of this idea, are we alone? Is one of the two or three most fundamental questions of human existence. You know, it's right up there with the questions of what happens after death and is there a God? You know, three questions altogether, by the way, that I think may not be totally unrelated as we come to figure out, as best we can, the answers to any of them.

Garrett Graff (6:52)

So the focus of your book is the US government's involvement and interest in UFOs, which is interesting because the fact that the government is interested kind of gives the whole subject some credence. But when did this all start? And why is the government interested?

Julia Baird (7:13)

It all begins in June 1947. There's an Idaho businessman named Kenneth Arnold who is flying in his private plane in the Pacific Northwest near the Cascades. And he sees a series of fast moving, bright objects in the sky that he likens to flying saucers. And he lands, tells some buddies about it. He gets picked up by the media, and very quickly kicks off this summer of the flying saucer. And week by week, summer of 47, there are now flying saucer sightings all over the United States. Ultimately, across that summer, there are sightings in 34 states, up and down North America, even up into Canada. And it hits at this very specific moment in our national anxiety, that summer of 47. The government is worried about these flying saucers, not because anyone thinks that they're aliens, but because they are, are afraid that these are secret Soviet spacecraft being built by kidnapped Nazi rocket scientists. And that these flying saucer sightings might herald a new technology that could invade the United States in this early stage of the Cold War, after the end of World War II.

Garrett Graff (8:52)

When they're doing that, though, are they doing this in secret? Are they telling people, yeah, we got our eye on this, not to worry? Or are they saying, yeah, let's take a look at this?

Julia Baird (9:01)

Well, the summer of 47 is just this moment of huge upheaval for the US national security apparatus. That summer, you know, literally within a couple of weeks of Kenneth Arnold sightings. Even as these flying saucers dominate newspaper headlines across the United States, the U.S. congress passes what we now call the national security Act of 1947. And it creates this modern national security apparatus. It creates the unified Department of Defense. It creates the position of the Secretary of Defense. It creates the National Security Council, it creates the CIA, creates the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and it creates the Air Force as a standalone service branch. The Air Force up until then, of course, had been part of the Army. So in that summer, sort of the Air Force's first crisis is to try to identify what these flying saucers are. And the Air Force, you know, simultaneously tries to, like poo poo that they appear to be anything threatening. But also, there's some fascinating paperwork from that era that shows that even behind closed doors, that the Air Force didn't have any idea what any of this stuff actually was up in the sky. And so you have the Air Force sort of racing to try to figure this out. They enlist J. Edgar Hoover's FBI for some help, then get into a classic bureaucratic tiff with the FBI, and the FBI basically says, we're getting out of the flying saucer business and leaves it all to the Air Force. And the Air Force, through that fall of 47 and the beginning of 48, really struggles to figure out what any of this stuff actually is.

Garrett Graff (10:55)

How much of any of this is being driven by popular culture? Movies, books, comic books? Is that a result of what you're talking about, or is that fueling what you're talking about?

Julia Baird (11:09)

It's both. As I said, none of this starts with the idea that these are aliens invading. It starts with this fear that these are Soviet spacecraft. And what you see happen in the late 40s and early 50s is that popular culture Hollywood begins to pick up this idea of these flying saucers and imagines them anew as aliens, you know, as invading extraterrestrials, as Martians. And that what you see created in the late 40s and the early 50s is this flywheel really, that becomes the way that our society thinks of these issues in the subsequent decades, where you have sort of popular culture fueling public sightings, that then fuels national security concerns and anxieties, that then fuels more popular culture interest, that then fuels more public sightings and sort of on and on and on. And, of course, part of the challenge of that is this idea that UFOs are real. All a UFO actually is, of course, is an Unidentified Flying Object. And there are obviously Unidentified Flying Objects. It's just in the public mind, sort of UFO becomes this shorthand for alien spacecraft, right?

Garrett Graff (12:47)

And it's a big jump to go from I don't know what that is to here come creatures from another world to colonize our planet. I Mean, that's a pretty big leap.

Julia Baird (12:58)

It is. And it's one that the government and the national security apparatus and the intelligence community and the Air Force all really struggle with in the years ahead. Because on the one hand, the government wants to reassure the public that these UFOs, whatever they are, don't pose a threat to national security. But at the same time, it's pretty clear that the government does not know what many of these UFOs actually are. And time and time again, you see the government trying to pull together study groups or commissions or committees to look at this phenomenon and try to put public concerns and official concern to rest, but doing so without really being able to solve what the underlying mystery actually is.

Garrett Graff (14:01)

In the 70 or 80 years since the government has been doing this, since 1947, is there any sense that, yeah, we really think that there are aliens or is it still, we don't know what it is? Because there's this sense, and you hear about it in talks of Area 51, that the government is hiding aliens and alien creatures. And I mean, is there any inkling that there's anything other than we just don't know what that is?

Julia Baird (14:35)

One of the puzzles to me in looking at this is our government appears to be just as baffled as the ordinary public and far less interested in figuring out the answer to any of this mystery than I think it should be. To me, as a taxpayer, as a citizen, as a journalist, I want the government to be more interested in the subject of UFOs than it appears to be. And that there's a fairly significant number of respectable credible witnesses to UAP UFO phenomenon that have come forward that I want the government to try to do better, to answer. You know, there has been, you know, a lot of attention since 2017 to this series of sightings by Navy pilots, Navy aviators who have come forward to describe encounters with phenomenon in the sky that they believe represent technologies that are more advanced than anything that the U.S. government has. You know, some of this has been backed up by instrument data, by, you know, infrared videos and things like that. And the thing that's just really striking to me is the government isn't more interested in figuring out what that mystery is. And I hope that this new conversation that we're having about UFOs in the modern era helps spur more serious investigation of some of these credible sightings.

Garrett Graff (16:28)

We are having a down to earth discussion about UFOs. And my guest is Garrett Graff. He is author of the book the Inside Story of the US Government's Search for alien life here and out there. You know today anyone can sell anything online and if you use Shopify to do it, you are setting yourself up for success. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Whether you're just setting up shop or you have a physical store, or even if you've had a million orders or more, Shopify will help you grow your business. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers. They have the Internet's best converting checkout 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And what I love about Shopify and what you can see when you peek inside. No matter how big or small you are, Shopify offers everything to manage and control your business. And what's really great is you don't need to know anything about web design or coding or anything. Plus Shopify's award winning help is there to support you every step of the way. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase go to shopify.comsysk to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.comSYSK Dell Technologies Black Friday event is live and if you've been waiting for an AI ready PC, this is their biggest sale of the year. Tech enthusiasts love this sale because it's all the newest hits plus all the greatest hits all on sale at once. Savings on Dell technologies most popular PCs that accelerate AI with Intel Core Ultra processors are here like the XPS 16. So if you're ready to step up all the things you like to do, streaming, surfing, multitasking, whatever, Dell Technologies AI Ready PCs are the perfect upgrade. And for the best of Intel Core Ultra processors, look for Intel Evo Edition laptops engineered to do it all. Just visit Dell.com deals whether you're treating yourself or thinking of others, these Black Friday prices were worth the wait. But it's only for a limited time. Shop now@dell.com deals so Garrett, since you focus on what the government is doing and what the government knows or doesn't know about UFOs, what is your sense? Does the government, do you think know a lot that it's not telling us or the government is looking for things but doesn't really see anything and it's just it's all explainable or what I.

Julia Baird (19:30)

Think you know both are true. The government certainly doesn't share everything that it does understand about UFOs and UAP sightings and that there are some layers of a public cover up Because UFO sightings intersect with two of the most sensitive areas of sort of day to day government secret keeping. One is our own advanced technologies, you know, what public UFO sightings actually represent. You know, classified planes, rockets, satellites, spacecraft, drones that the US has developed but doesn't talk about publicly. I mean that's certainly some chunk of public UFO sightings that the US government doesn't like to talk about. The second layer that the government doesn't like to talk about is its own sensor technology which is, you know, the US has enormously complex and enormously advanced sensor systems that, you know, it doesn't really like to talk about what UFOs and UAPs it detects because that would then give away some of that answer of what the US government is able to see, listen, to, watch, hear, you know, detect on a day to day basis, you know, information that would be enormously valuable for our adversaries.

Garrett Graff (21:13)

Is there a sense of all of the reported UFOs, which ones have, what percentage of them eventually get explained or versus how many we never figured out?

Julia Baird (21:27)

The modern Pentagon office that's in charge of this says that it's able to answer now all but about 2 to 5% of the sightings that get reported to it.

Garrett Graff (21:40)

That's a surprising figure I think for a lot of people that the Pentagon or whoever is looking at this can actually explain almost 95 to 98% of all UFO sightings as to what they are. That's pretty good batting average.

Julia Baird (21:57)

And some of that is, you know, just a huge percentage of these things are very straightforward. Oh, that looked weird to you, but you know, that was a, just an obviously scheduled plane or a known satellite crossing the sky. But you know, there are some chunk of this as a phenomenon that we just really have no idea what it is.

Garrett Graff (22:20)

But when those pilots see things and sometimes there's these fuzzy videos of lights moving in a way that you know, would be hard to imagine. Do those things ever get figured out? I mean you often hear, oh is a weather balloon or something. But are there some real baffling things that like that is so incredible we just, we couldn't possibly begin to explain it?

Julia Baird (22:42)

Yes, absolutely. And that to me, you know, is the core of this whole mystery, which is, you know, what is that, you know, 1 to 2 to 5% of known recorded sightings that just no one can answer. And you know, we know that those sightings exist. We know that people have investigated some chunk of them and that they remain just as puzzled as anyone. You know, what more should we be Doing to try to dive into and uncover and unravel those mysteries.

Garrett Graff (23:19)

Whenever there's a discussion about UFOs and the government, Area 51 comes up. What is Area 51?

Julia Baird (23:30)

Area 51 is the Air Forces and CIA's secret flight test site. You know, it dates back to the early stages of the Cold War. It's where the U2 spy plane and other secret classified planes have been developed and tested over the years. You know, I think part of the lure of it in these UFO conspiracies is that the government is incredibly secretive about what flies out of there. You know, it, it doesn't like talking about what, what's being tested there. We know that that is where the government takes secret planes to be tested and evaluated, whether those are manned or unmanned systems. And you know, I think a lot of people have imagined that that's where the government sort of would take a crashed spacecraft if the government ever managed to recover one. But I think after looking into all of this and having covered national security for 20 years in Washington, I'm pretty dubious that the US government is capable of a sophisticated long term cover up of a crashed alien spacecraft.

Garrett Graff (24:52)

You know, it just seems, as with all conspiracy theories, the reason not to believe that the government has aliens or has captured aliens or alien spacecraft and they're keeping them somewhere. That human nature is that people aren't very good at keeping secrets, people can't keep their mouth shut and that by now this would have leaked out, somebody would have taken a picture, like a real picture, or somebody would know something and it would get out.

Julia Baird (25:22)

Yes, and that in fact is just my sort of most basic reasoning for why you shouldn't believe the government conspiracies about secret UFOs or bases under Area 51 or bodies is, you know, the government is capable of keeping secrets, but the government is not really able to keep secrets that are really big, that are known by a large number of people for very long. And so, you know, do I believe that the government could cover up a crashed alien spacecraft, you know, for a couple of hours, a couple of days, a couple of weeks, a month or two, maybe a year or two? Probably. But the idea that there is some massive government program that has been ongoing for 80 years where no one has accidentally emailed a budget briefing to their roommate about the UFO program, I just don't really believe. And my challenge with really any government conspiracy is that they presuppose a level of competence, foresight, planning and strategy that is just not on display in the day to day work that the government.

Garrett Graff (26:46)

Does, and the day to day work the government does is to be out there looking for things or do they react to reports or are they scanning the skies or what?

Julia Baird (26:58)

Little of all of the above that you see the government really studying the skies on a daily basis. But what they're searching for are adversary technology, Russian satellites, Chinese spacecraft, Iranian drones. The government will react to some of these sightings if they come in in certain channels or appear to threaten national security. You sort of saw that last year, that flap over the Chinese spy balloon which sort of started out as a UFO sighting. But I think the core of the challenge is that whatever that percentage is, 1%, 2%, 5% of sightings, the government just really is just as baffled as the rest of us.

Garrett Graff (27:48)

Well, you said in the very beginning that people have this kind of human nature question of are we alone in the universe? Is there alien life out there? And I guess people have wondered that for a long time. But truly over the last 80 years, the interest in all of this has really ramped up and it's interesting to hear the story and the government's involvement in all of it. I've been speaking with Garrett Graff. He is a former editor for Politico, a contributor to Wired and cnn. He's written several books and his latest is called the Inside Story of the US Government's Search for Alien Life Here and Out There. And there's a link to his book in the show Notes. Thanks for coming on and talking about this, Garrett.

Julia Baird (28:33)

Well, thanks so much. It was a pleasure talking with you.

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Garrett Graff (29:56)

Shopify.com realm the new Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist. And it's the fastest charging Apple watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. Introducing the all new Apple Watch Series 10, now available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generation iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary what do you think of when I say the word grace? Someone who has grace has something. Yeah, there is graceful, as in how someone moves. But as a human characteristic, grace is something maybe a little bit indefinable. You know it when you see it. And I think we tend to like people who exhibit grace. So why don't we dive into it and see if maybe we could all exhibit a little more grace in our lives. And here to help me do that is Julia Baird. Julia is an Australian journalist, broadcaster, and author. Her latest book is called Bright How Grace Changes Everything. Hi Julia, welcome to something you should know.

Mike Carruthers (31:17)

Thank you for having me.

Garrett Graff (31:18)

So, as I said, it seems like grace is maybe a little tough to define. I know it when I see it. But how do you define grace? What is it?

Mike Carruthers (31:27)

Well, that's part of it. Part of it is it's great mystery. And people do say exactly that. Like, I'm not quite sure exactly how to define it, but the moment I see it, I know, I know. And really, I think it's acts of great generosity, courage, decency, and so on. But to me, at the heart of grace is something that is undeserved. You will be loving the unlovable, forgiving the unforgivable. You'll be showing mercy instead of measuring merit. You'll be giving people the benefit of the doubt, not holding them to or judging them by their worst possible moment. It's something that's expansive and in one sense actually doesn't make sense, but it can change lives. It really is the very best of humanity.

Garrett Graff (32:13)

I think when I think of graceful people, at least the people I'm thinking of, it's hard to imagine that they sat down one day and said, you know, I'm going to be more graceful. I'm going to Exhibit more grace to the world. In other words, it's not something that you decide to do, it's more who. Who you are.

Mike Carruthers (32:34)

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. My mother was a great woman of grace. And you do meet people like that sometimes who have a kind of light about them, who are open to people, who see the best in people, who leave you feeling better about yourself and the world in general, who just are fundamentally deeply kind. But I think in a way that lets us off the hook, because grace is not something that's just inherited or just easy. It's not, you know, Kleenex and puppies and like, a simple path. To me, there is a really powerfully difficult thing about grace. I see it as requiring a lot of grit. You can decide to be that way, you can decide to live that way. If you decide to forgive someone, it's not the easiest thing to do, necessarily. And often you can decide you're going to. And you still wake up the next morning with all the pain and the grief and the annoyance and the irritation with that person. And you might have to decide to forgive again. You might have to decide that's how you really want to be and you're going to work towards it and you've got to train yourself towards it. I mean, I think it's. I just don't think it's necessarily easy or simple. I think it can really change you to live that way, and I think it can change you to receive those kinds of acts, to be allowed a possibility of redemption. But fundamentally, it's about opening yourself up to recognize the humanity in another person. So the difference, say, between. I see the difference between grace and compassion. There'll be. Maybe you have a neighbor down the road who's got cancer and you've always got on well with this neighbour. You're worried about them, you drop them off food, meals, you know, mow their lawn, whatever it is they need to have done. That's compassion and empathy and kindness. Now, what if that neighbor had always actually been a real jerk who had been rude to neighbours, you know, just hostile to the kids in the area, whatever, just not pleasant to be around. And they had cancer and you still did the same thing for them. That's when someone fundamentally isn't deserving it, but you're doing it because there's a need and there's a human there. And then if you sat long enough with that person, you might work out like, oh, he. I don't know. That's a man who lost his Parents when it was orphan when he was 2 years old, and has had chronic illness his whole life and has just, you know, suffered a lot and which has calcified around him and made him a really angry person. I don't know. So do you see that the difference there is. It's not about ease necessarily, or just being that way. I think you can definitely meditate it on it, train your mind on it, and be more like that.

Garrett Graff (35:38)

When the people that you think of, that you know, that do this, it's hard to imagine they sit down and go open up, make notes about, I'm going to have more grace. It's like, it must be something else. They say to themselves. It's because you don't hear that word a lot, like, I'm going to work on my grace. It's something else, isn't it? I mean, how do people come at this?

Mike Carruthers (36:03)

Going back to your original point, people know it when they see it, right? So if I could talk about, briefly about this study, which really excited me, and that's the reason I wrote this whole book. I've done a lot of work in the area of awe, in what it means to be struck by something, be stopped in your tracks, be amazed by something that you don't, might not understand, that you might marvel at, that makes you feel small. And yet a lot of research around, all showing that it makes you feel more connected to each other, to the world. Like it's psychologically really good for us to feel small sometimes, and it makes people more altruistic. There was a study done of 2,600 people in 26 countries, and it asked them to write their accounts of awe. What were your personal experiences of, or what is the most common way in which you experienced it? And they found across all these countries, with all the different histories, dialects, you know, demographic groups and cultures, the number one, I would have said the natural world, but that was not it. The number one thing, we're seeing it in each other. We're seeing great decency, great courage, great generosity, and also people overcoming obstacles with great abilities. I think that one of the things that the research shows is that when we see people acting in this way, we are much more likely to do it ourselves. We're much more likely to react in the same way. There was one study which showed a group of college students a series of videos. And they showed some videos which were really funny. And then another group which showed people in distress, but people trying to do something about it, trying to help out. Now, the funny videos did Absolutely nothing to their brains, which is interesting because I watch a lot of funny videos. But the second group had that fight or flight, that kind of, oh, someone's in trouble, we need to do something about it. And then watching that suffering be eased in some way by someone else was incredibly soothing for them. And they were they. After the study, they were much more likely to carry out an act which was looking after other people. So I guess that's a different way of answering your question. We might not be repeating the word grace to ourselves, but when we witness it, we do it more.

Garrett Graff (38:33)

The people who do these acts, these, like the person who drops the meals off and mows the lawn for the jerk. Like, is it the occasional lawn mowing and meal dropping off, or is this a life, a lifestyle?

Mike Carruthers (38:50)

Think of the impact of the children, of the person who's doing that dropping off for the jerk. Like, you'd be like, whoa, why would you do that? Like, that person's such a horrible person. And then if you begin to understand it, that there is a need there and that you're meeting it. And actually, it also might crack the jerk open a little bit. You never know how he might be after being treated that way or after being shown some kind of love or care. So I think that's a different way to look at it. So your question again was, was really.

Garrett Graff (39:25)

How often do you have to do this? Is this a way of thinking all the time and a way of acting all the time? Or are you just dropping off the occasional meal to the occasional jerk? And that's fine.

Mike Carruthers (39:38)

I think any act is just fine. But the example. Well, some of the examples which I find really inspiring here, to me, there is so much grace in the medical system and I've spent quite a bit of time. I've had serious health issues, so I've been in and out of the medical system for years and I've spent months in hospital and I've watched the doctors and the nurses care for people and they don't say to them when they're coming in. So who do you vote for? Are you nice to your neighbours? Do you keep a tidy house? Whatever your metric is of whatever a good person is, that person will come into a hospital and will need help and they will give it. And when you see them doing that day in, day out, there's something actually very profoundly moving about that. It's the same with paramedics and it's the same with blood donors. So blood donors who once every two weeks usually go to off. Go off to a medical center, ask a series of very invasive questions, have a needle stuck in their arm and have their actual stuff of their life drain out of them to give to someone. Not because that other person's done them a favor in the past or because they're impressed with them in some way. They don't even know who it's going to be. And again, could be the jerk down the road. But again, it's a human that has a need and you're affirming your own humanity by doing that and by offering that up. And I find those quiet, often unrecognized acts really quite moving. There's a certain devotion, not just to your fellow neighbor, to a bigger idea of who we can be in that.

Garrett Graff (41:22)

So this thing you call awe, which I think we've all experienced, that you see something and it's wow. You have that moment of wow. What's the connection between awe and grace, if there is one?

Mike Carruthers (41:38)

Well, that study that I mentioned before, the most common way people report seeing it is in each other. And I had spent years looking at. Because I'm a big ocean swimmer, I just went this morning and I have spent a lot of time talking to people that chase storms or run safaris in Africa or like pursue or in different ways. Although I'm very conscious that it's also in art and architecture and big sporting events. They're called collective effervescence. And music. There's very many different ways to experience it. And I think it's so psychologically healthy and wonderful for us to do like it is the most wonderful thing. And it's also wonderful to share in other people's forms of awe. So when I read that actually the most, the most common way in which people experience it is by seeing this moral beauty in each other, which I began to call grace. And I wondered why we didn't talk about that more.

Garrett Graff (42:42)

You know, what I noticed is, well, you know, you only see awe if you're kind of looking for it. I mean, you might see something and I might see something and you're awestruck. And I'm like, eh, you know, I'm sorry, I was on my phone, I couldn't help but I missed that. What was that like? You know, you've got to be present, you've got to pay attention, you've got to look for it and you can find it almost anywhere if you're willing to look for it.

Mike Carruthers (43:07)

That's exactly right. It's like it's almost a holy thing, paying attention to the world and being open to it and just sitting with it and it really will change you. Like, since I decided to deliberately hunt or because I think that we often think, oh, we'll just be serendipitous, we'll stumble across it. Like when we go on holidays, we'll go somewhere pretty and I might catch a sunrise or a sunset on my way to or from work or I've just seen a tree burst into bloom or whatever. We can think, you know, that that's the way it occurs in our lives. Instead of, no, I recognize this has got this really intrinsic value of its own and I'm going to hunt it down. There was a study or walks and they got a group of people who went on a 15 minute or walk each day for six weeks and people who went on just a, a normal walk. The difference being the OR walkers were being told to pay attention to the world and what really intensely and what was happening around them. They were, and they were asked to take photos and write a journal. At the beginning, those who went on the OR walks, their photos of themselves, like was mainly their faces. Here I am, first day of my OR walk, blah, blah, blah. By the end of it, their faces had actually shrunk in the frame as they were trying to point to something behind them. Look at this tree over here. Look at this mountain. Oh, look, you can catch a bird. They themselves become less important in the story. And it struck me as a really fantastic antidote to narcissism actually, and to getting out of ourselves. And that's what happens when we pay better attention.

Garrett Graff (44:44)

I still want to try to understand why, like why you become the person. What motivates the person to say, I'm going to do that thing that, you know, the meals drop off to the jerk guy. What motivates that change in behavior? Because usually it's something, I mean you don't just wake up one morning and go, you know, I'm going to go take meals down the street. Something motivates you. What is it that motivates people to show more grace?

Mike Carruthers (45:16)

You've either seen it or you've experienced it yourself. Or you fundamentally have a way of looking people in which you appreciate that everyone is just dealing with their own crap that everyone, like we can have if we sit in other people's shoes, we're much more likely to be generous minded to those around us. Like, okay, that guy, as I said, like, who knows what's going on in his own life, like, but he's someone who's sad and alone. And this is something that might. Might kind of crack him open. This is someone who maybe hasn't been shown a lot of love by people around him. I think it's. I think it's that kind of thing. I mean, what do you think? Like, have you ever been motivated to do something like that? And where do you think that's come from?

Garrett Graff (46:09)

Yeah, it's usually, I think, because you've seen it somewhere else, or maybe you've done it before. Maybe not deliberately, but when you did it, it felt so good. You want to do it again?

Mike Carruthers (46:21)

Yeah, Yeah. I was. I was really interested when I spoke to a lot of super donors for my book, Super Blood Donors. And that's people who, you know, have been doing it their whole life, sometimes for, like, you know, 50 years. Some people plan their holidays around blood donation. Some Australians who go over to America because they've got family there, they'll be hopping around all the major sites and they'll be like, oh, this is what I was like when I gave blood in Phoenix or Miami and New York. And they're so committed to it. I was talking to researchers and they're like, we don't really know why people do this. Like, and on one level, it doesn't really make sense. Why would you go and give blood? And they talk about an impure altruism, which is when you get something from it. That warm and that fuzzy feeling that you get from thinking, oh, you know, I'm helping another human being. Someone might walk because of this. Someone might live longer because of it. There should be. Could be some kid who could go on to have a life because of this. And the idea of it being impure because you get something for it really kind of amused me because there is a purity to that. Like, if they are the warm, fuzzy feelings and they're impure, then I say, you know, we need a lot more of them. I think that feeling is. Is a good one also. I mean, the converse. To be constantly in combat and angry with people and not giving them the benefit of the doubt, it just kind of eats away at your own self in a way. If you can let go of hostilities and grudges and problems you have with the jerk down the road we keep talking about, then maybe your life is better off for it.

Garrett Graff (48:02)

I gotta go meet that guy.

Mike Carruthers (48:05)

Yeah, I know. He's gonna be inundated with soup now.

Garrett Graff (48:08)

I'm gonna bring him a casserole and have a little chat with him.

Mike Carruthers (48:11)

See how you feel.

Garrett Graff (48:12)

See how he feels.

Mike Carruthers (48:13)

Warm fuzzies and hey, yeah, I know it could be at the start of a whole thing.

Garrett Graff (48:18)

It seems like in a conversation about grace that somewhere in there is forgiveness, that that's kind of what this is about.

Mike Carruthers (48:28)

I've been grown up being taught and really believing that forgiveness is a very important and powerful thing. You give someone another chance, you allow them to be better the next time and you free yourself from any of the like tight and horrible feeling of resenting someone or holding on to something they did bad, some way in which they harmed you. And I wanted to write about this book because I did find occasions in which forgiveness just was absolutely eye wateringly present. I talked to a, talk to a man who was almost murdered when he was 10 years old by someone who put like a pick through his head, who he later, decades down the road, that man confessed and the little boy, then a man chose to forgive him and was the only person visiting him in the final days of his life. I find stories like that incredible. And he says to me, well, I had to show my kids that there was another way that we have to break this cycle. If we don't break this cycle, then we're always hating and we've always got grudges and we will never get out beyond it. And there was something quite beautiful in him personally actually. His name was Chris Carrier and he's one of these gentle souls. But forgiveness is hard won, hard fought for for him.

Garrett Graff (50:01)

Well, anyone who looks at the world today would likely agree that the world and the people in it could use a little more grace. And this is a great and optimistic way to approach the topic. Julia Baird has been my guest. She's an Australian journalist and broadcaster and she's author of a book called Bright How Grace Changes Everything. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Thank you, Julia.

Mike Carruthers (50:26)

Thanks so much, Mike.

Garrett Graff (50:31)

As you intuitively know, getting in the middle of a dog fight can be very dangerous. Naturally, you feel an urge to intervene when dogs are fighting, especially if your dog is involved. However, the mutual roaring and snarling kind of scuffle is actually a cue to stand back. The whole thing usually seems much longer to us, but the dogs should resolve it in less than a minute. When you panic or shout at the dog, it can escalate matters and add to the frenzy. Of course, the dogs are prone to injury in a fight, but a relatively minor bite can become a much bigger tear if the dogs are pulled apart after they happen to clamp down on one another. Now, you might not have known this, but in A serious dog fight, the aggressive dog is often silent. Take this as a cue that he means business. There really is not a safe way to intervene unless you have an air horn or a water hose or something that will startle the dogs into giving up the fight. You can also try throwing a blanket or jacket over the dogs. Try to stay cool and call out for help. But trying to separate a serious dog fight could result in severe injuries to you and to your dog. And that is something you should know. Hey, we're here three times a week. We publish episodes on Monday, Thursday and Saturday every single week. Not to mention our rather extensive back catalog of hundreds and hundreds of episodes. If you know somebody who would enjoy this podcast as much as you, I invite you to share it with them and help us get some new listeners. I really appreciate that. I'm micahruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

Rob Benedict (52:12)

Hi, I'm Laura Cathcart Robbins and I am the host and creator of the podcast Only One in the Room. Every week, my co host Scott Slaughter and I invite you to join us and lose yourself in someone's incredible Only One story. We talk to real people dealing with issues like infertility, the death of a loved one, human trafficking, and women who fake it. Oh, and we want to be fair, so we talk to celebrities too. Emmy winners like actor Jon Cryer, supermodels like Amber Valletta, and rock stars like Ryan Dusick. Everyone is invited to share their only one story with our listeners. With 21 seasons and counting, we guarantee you that only one in the room has a story that you'll connect with. This podcast is for anyone who has ever felt alone in a room full of people. Which is to say that this podcast is for everyone. Download Only One in the Room on Apple or Spotify today.

Garrett Graff (53:13)

Hi, this is Rob Benedict and I am Richard Speight. We were both on a little show you might know, called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen of course every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers.

Julia Baird (53:48)

It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was he's great. We love him, but we're looking for, like, a really intelligent Duchovny type with.

Garrett Graff (53:59)

15 seasons to explore. It's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.