A Smart Guide to Friendships & English Tips From A Master Grammarian - SYSK Choice

Summary

Something You Should Know – Episode: A Smart Guide to Friendships & English Tips From A Master Grammarian

In this enlightening episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers delves into two pivotal aspects of daily life: cultivating meaningful friendships and navigating the complexities of the English language. Featuring expert insights from psychologist Dr. Marissa Franco and grammar authority Ellen Jovan, this episode equips listeners with practical strategies to enhance their personal connections and refine their language skills.

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1. Mastering Email Management

[00:00 - 05:00]

Mike Carruthers kicks off the episode by addressing a common modern dilemma: email overload. Drawing from Caitlin Sherwood's book, Overcome the Email Overload, he outlines six actionable rules to reduce inbox clutter:

• No Reply Needed: When sending emails, explicitly state that no response is required to prevent unnecessary replies.

• Conclusive Statements: End requests with phrases like "hope this helped" to avoid the endless exchange of "thanks" and "you're welcome."

• Use FYI in Subject Lines: Clarify that the email is for informational purposes, reducing the need for a reply.

• Avoid Leading Questions: Steer clear of statements that end with questions, such as "Peter and Laura did a great job, didn't they?" to prevent obligatory responses.

• Limit Unnecessary Replies: When CC'd, respond only to the sender to minimize inbox traffic.

• Eliminate Redundant Communication: Address only the intended recipients to keep emails concise and relevant.

These strategies not only streamline communication but also free up valuable time for more meaningful interactions.

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2. The Science of Friendship with Dr. Marissa Franco

[05:43 - 28:05]

Dr. Marissa Franco, a renowned psychologist and author of Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Make and Keep Friends, joins Mike to explore the intricate world of friendships.

The Importance of Friendships

[05:52 - 06:25]

Mike highlights the profound impact of friendships on mental health, citing research that equates loneliness to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. He emphasizes that human connection is as vital as basic needs like food and water for our well-being.

Notable Quote:

"Research finds that loneliness is as toxic as smoking 15 cigarettes a day and that our level of connection actually predicts how long we live, even more so than our diet and our exercise."
— Mike Carruthers [05:52]

Friendships Over Time

[06:25 - 07:26]

Franco discusses the natural ebb and flow of friendships, noting that approximately half of our friends fade away every seven years. Additionally, she reveals that about half of our supposed friends don’t reciprocate the friendship, underscoring the importance of mutual investment in relationships.

Key Insights:

• Loneliness Alters Perception: Loneliness can lead to negative self-perception and reduced trust in others, creating a self-sustaining cycle of isolation.
• Interventions Focus on Thought Patterns: Effective strategies to combat loneliness involve reshaping negative thought patterns rather than merely increasing social interactions.

Notable Quote:

"The most successful interventions against loneliness are not the ones that have focused on connecting people with others, but actually on changing people's maladaptive thought patterns that are triggered when they're lonely."
— Mike Carruthers [07:26]

Making Friends as an Adult

[08:06 - 15:39]

Contrary to the ease of forming friendships in childhood, adults often struggle due to lack of conducive environments and heightened fear of rejection. Franco explains that adults miss out on the continuous, unplanned interactions that naturally foster friendships during youth.

Strategies for Adults:

• Build Social Infrastructure: Engage in regular activities like improv clubs or language groups to create opportunities for natural interactions.

• Overcome Rejection Sensitivity: Understand that fears of rejection are often unfounded, as most people are more open to connections than we anticipate.

Notable Quote:

"One of my biggest tips for making friends as an adult is to assume people like you so you'll actually initiate with people."
— Mike Carruthers [10:27]

Deepening Friendships Through Vulnerability

[15:39 - 22:07]

Franco emphasizes the role of vulnerability in transforming acquaintances into deep, lasting friendships. Sharing personal struggles and expressing genuine appreciation fosters trust and solidifies connections.

Key Points:

• Affection Matters: Compliments and expressions of appreciation reinforce the likelihood of reciprocal friendship.

• Risk Regulation Theory: People invest more in relationships where they feel secure from rejection, enhancing friendship longevity.

Notable Quote:

"When we share affection with someone, we tell people, hey, you're not going to get rejected. And remember how I said fear of rejection is one of the biggest barriers to friendship?"
— Mike Carruthers [19:30]

The Lifespan and Dynamics of Friendships

[22:07 - 24:42]

Discussing the transient nature of friendships, Franco notes that it’s normal to outgrow some relationships. The resilience of a friendship often correlates with how long it has already lasted. Additionally, she examines the impact of social media, highlighting that its effect on loneliness depends on its usage—facilitating real connections versus replacing face-to-face interactions.

Notable Quote:

"Social media has been a net negative for our connections because in 2012, with the rise of smartphones, there was a stark increase in loneliness, especially among young adults."
— Mike Carruthers [24:40]

Embracing Rejection and Curating Friendships

[26:27 - 28:05]

Franco encourages listeners to view rejection not as a setback but as a natural part of curating a meaningful social network. Initiating connections, even when met with rejection, is portrayed as a success in building a life aligned with one’s values.

Notable Quote:

"If you're building the skill of initiating, if you're putting yourself out there, if you're living up to your values, I see it as a success, even if the outcome isn't what you hoped for."
— Mike Carruthers [26:56]

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3. Navigating English Language Complexities with Ellen Jovan

[30:10 - 49:52]

Ellen Jovan, a grammar expert and author of Rebel Without a Tale and Tips from a Roving Grammarian, provides clarity on some of the most perplexing aspects of the English language.

Why is English So Complicated?

[31:05 - 31:23]

Jovan attributes English’s complexity to its global nature, encompassing diverse dialects and regional variations that often operate in isolation from one another.

Notable Quote:

"English is more than one language. American English is different than British English in many ways."
— Ellen Jovan [31:05]

Commonly Confused Words

a. Further vs. Farther

[31:23 - 32:41]

Jovan explains that while “farther” typically refers to physical distance, “further” can denote both physical and metaphorical distances. However, usage often overlaps, and strict adherence is less critical in everyday conversation.

b. Lie vs. Lay

[32:41 - 33:50]

The distinction between “lie” (to recline) and “lay” (to place something down) is elucidated, with Jovan acknowledging that many native speakers find this confusing and often use them interchangeably.

Notable Quote:

"Even very sophisticated people often can't remember the difference between 'lie down' and 'lay down'."
— Ellen Jovan [32:49]

Responding to "How Are You?"

[33:50 - 35:06]

Jovan discusses the nuanced differences between replying “I’m good” versus “I’m well,” underscoring that while traditionally “well” refers to health status, modern usage has blurred these lines.

Notable Quote:

"I'm doing well or I'm fine, thanks, how are you? So I kind of avoid the different, choosing between those."
— Ellen Jovan [34:10]

Punctuation Puzzles

a. Semicolons and Colons

[35:19 - 37:33]

Jovan demystifies the semicolon, describing it as a softer pause than a period, suitable for linking related independent clauses. She contrasts this with the colon, which typically introduces lists or dramatic statements.

Notable Quote:

"Semicolons create a quiet suspense and bridge related ideas without the stark separation of a period."
— Ellen Jovan [35:19]

b. Apostrophes in Possessives

[37:45 - 39:02]

Clarifying the use of apostrophes, Jovan differentiates between possessive pronouns (e.g., “its”) that do not require apostrophes and contractions (e.g., “it’s” for “it is”).

Notable Quote:

"Its tail was wagging. No apostrophe needed. But it's raining."
— Ellen Jovan [37:45]

Prepositions and Sentence Structure

[40:12 - 41:41]

Addressing the myth that sentences should not end with prepositions, Jovan encourages embracing natural language flow over rigid grammatical rules learned in childhood.

Notable Quote:

"You should get rid of that superstition from your childhood English classes and move along with the language as it evolves."
— Ellen Jovan [40:12]

Collective Nouns and Subject-Verb Agreement

[41:59 - 43:42]

Jovan explores the challenges posed by collective nouns like “couple,” which, despite being singular in form, often take plural verbs in practice.

Notable Quote:

"There is a schism between the singular form of 'couple' and how we treat it in sentences. In the UK, for instance, it's more common to use plural verbs with collective nouns."
— Ellen Jovan [41:59]

The Oxford Comma Debate

[47:42 - 48:32]

Jovan discusses the contentious use of the Oxford comma, explaining that while it can clarify complex lists, its usage is often a matter of stylistic preference rather than strict grammar rules.

Notable Quote:

"It's not wrong to leave the comma out or to include it. It depends on the complexity of the list."
— Ellen Jovan [47:42]

Affect vs. Effect

[48:42 - 49:21]

Finally, Jovan clarifies the distinction between “affect” (a verb meaning to influence) and “effect” (a noun meaning the result), which remains a common source of confusion among English speakers.

Notable Quote:

"Your behavior affects me. Your behavior has an effect on me."
— Ellen Jovan [48:42]

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4. Fun Fact: The Power of Chewing

[49:52 - 51:26]

Closing the episode on an intriguing note, Mike shares a study by Dr. Chiron Wang, revealing that the average lean person chews 21 times per bite compared to 17 times for the average obese person. Increased chewing releases hormones that signal satiety, helping to curb appetite and potentially aid in weight management.

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Conclusion

This episode of Something You Should Know seamlessly intertwines the art of maintaining fulfilling friendships with the intricacies of the English language. By leveraging expert advice and scientific research, Mike Carruthers provides listeners with valuable tools to enhance their personal and professional lives. Whether you're looking to deepen your social connections or refine your communication skills, this episode serves as a comprehensive guide to making informed and impactful changes.

Notable Quotes:

"Making friends feels like a risk, and it is a risk. Intimacy is a risk. We might be rejected, but it's actually far less likely, it's far less risky than we think it is."
— Mike Carruthers [25:13]

"Understanding that friendship does not happen organically anymore is key for adults trying to make meaningful connections."
— Marissa Franco [15:39]

"English is an adventure, and that's what keeps it exciting."
— Ellen Jovan [44:23]

For more insights and practical advice, tune into future episodes of Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

Bingo Blitz rules.

[Marissa Franco]

If your bingo has ads in it.

[Ellen Jovan]

That'S not a bingo.

[Mike Carruthers]

If it doesn't have the coolest tournaments.

[Marissa Franco]

Mini games, and the most breathtaking design, Nope, not a bingo. If your bingo moment makes you feel so excited that you just want to.

[Mike Carruthers]

Burst in joy and scream out loud, Bingo.

[Marissa Franco]

Sorry.

[Ellen Jovan]

So you're playing Bingo Blitz.

[Marissa Franco]

Now that's a bingo step for a.

[Ellen Jovan]

World of excitement with Bingo Blitz, the number one free bingo game.

[Marissa Franco]

Download Bingo Blitz and play for free. Now that's a bingo. Today on something you should know. Simple ways to reduce the number of emails you get then how friendship works, why we need friends, and why friends often come and go.

[Mike Carruthers]

It's absolutely normal to go through these breakups with friends and actually every seven years we lose about half our friends. Also, about half of our friends don't consider us their friends. What we do know is that the longer a friendship has lasted, the more likely it is to continue to last.

[Marissa Franco]

Also some interesting intel about how you chew your food and some common questions and answers about the English language, how we speak it and how we write it.

[Ellen Jovan]

I get asked a lot about affect and effect. The one with the e is a noun and the one with an a is a verb. So your behavior affects me. That would be an A. Your behavior has an effect on me.

[Marissa Franco]

Would be an E. All this today on something you should know. Dell Technologies Black Friday event is live and if you've been waiting for an AI ready PC, this is their biggest sale of the year. Tech enthusiasts love this sale because it's all the newest hits plus all the greatest hits all on sale at once. Savings on Dell technologies most popular PCs that accelerate AI with Intel Core Ultra processors are here like the XPS 16. So if you're ready to step up all the things you like to do, streaming, surfing, multitasking, whatever, Dell Technologies AI Ready PCs are the perfect upgrade. And for the best of Intel Core Ultra processors, look for Intel EVO Edition laptops engineered to do it all. Just visit Dell.com deals whether you're treating yourself or thinking of others, these Black Friday prices were worth the wait. But it's only for a limited time. Shop [e-mail] deals something you should know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something youg Should Know with Mike Carruthers hi, welcome to Something you Should Know. Like a lot of people, I start my day pretty much every day checking emails because there is a lot of it. I get a lot of emails and I kind of like to get through it and weed them out and throw away the junk and file the other stuff. And it turns out a lot of people start their day checking their email inbox to get rid of the clutter. And so maybe the solution would be to try to stop the clutter from coming in in the first place. And there are six basic rules that can really help cut back on some of that inbox clutter, according to Caitlin Sherwood, who wrote a book called Overcome the Email Overload. First of all, when you send a message, you can sign off by saying no reply needed. That way you won't get the reply of thanks or great, which just clutters up your inbox. Another suggestion when making a request, finish with thanks in advance to prevent the thanks you're welcome loop that tends to go on when completing a response to an email request, end with a conclusive statement like hope this helped use FYI in the subject line, which helps to specify that the message is solely for informational purposes only and doesn't need a reply. And don't write statements phrase like questions like Peter and Laura did a great job, didn't they? Because your co workers will feel compelled to answer the didn't they question and you then end up with more pointless emails. When you receive an email and you're not the intended recipient, you're on the CC list, but you must reply. Send your responses only to the sender instead of to everybody and that way you'll cut down on all those other people's clutter as well. And that is something you should know. Friendship is interesting. There's no manual on how to make or keep friends. Friends come to us in different ways at different times. Some stay, some go. But I think we all have a sense that friends are important. Still, some of us are better at friendship than others. Some people have a lot of friends. Some people don't have any friends. Here to talk about the importance of friendship and how to make and keep friends is psychologist Dr. Marissa Franco. She's been studying friendship for a long time. Her work has appeared in Psychology Today, the New York Times, and Scientific American. She's author of a book called Platonic how the Science of Attachment can make and Keep Friends. Hi Marissa. Welcome. Thanks for being here.

[Mike Carruthers]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Marissa Franco]

So this is kind of an obvious question, maybe, but why are friendships so important?

[Mike Carruthers]

So many reasons. I mean, connection is related to our mental health and well being. Research finds that loneliness is as toxic as smoking 15 cigarettes a day and that our level of connection actually predicts how long we live, even more so than our diet and our exercise, for example. So I think just like we can consider food, oxygen, water, essential to our well being and our homeostasis, so is human connection.

[Marissa Franco]

And yet I hear, I think I've heard that people tend to have fewer friends than they used to. Is that true?

[Mike Carruthers]

That's absolutely true. And we've also been finding that people are spending more time with their romantic partners and alone over the past few decades and less time with their friends and everybody else.

[Marissa Franco]

Okay, so friendship is good for you. So why is loneliness bad for you?

[Mike Carruthers]

So we tend to think of loneliness as just a feeling, but it's actually a way of perceiving the world. So because historically when we were lonely, we were separated from our tribes, we were in danger, that that led to loneliness, kind of leading to a bunch of ways of viewing the world and relating to others. So when we're lonely, according to the research, we actually think that people like us less. We actually like other people less. We actually report having less faith in humanity. All of this is so that we can protect ourselves at times of loneliness. But obviously this can also be very self sabotaging, such that loneliness can become a self perpetuating cycle because of how it affects how we perceive and relate to others.

[Marissa Franco]

Well, that's clearly a problem if what you're saying is so that if you're lonely, it makes you act in a way that alienates people and makes you more lonely. So loneliness gets you more loneliness.

[Mike Carruthers]

Exactly, Mike. And actually the most successful interventions against loneliness are not the ones that have focused on connecting people with others, but actually on changing people's maladaptive thought patterns that are triggered when they're lonely.

[Marissa Franco]

Which means what?

[Mike Carruthers]

Which means that if you think people don't like you, or if you're very cynical about not liking other people, reframing those beliefs, trying to think differently so that you can be more open to connecting with people.

[Marissa Franco]

It does seem that friendships are much easier for kids. Kids seem to have very little trouble making friends and adults seem to have a lot of trouble making friends.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. So I don't think it's as much about being kids as much as it is about the settings that we're in when we're kids, which provide for factors that sociologists really consider central for making connections, such as continuous unplanned interaction. So I'm seeing you consistently without planning it. And shared vulnerability. And when we have these factors in place, friendship tends to happen more or less organically. But as adults, we tend to no longer have these environments. Because at work, sure, we're seeing each other every day. Well, maybe less so now with everybody working from home. But we're not necessarily having that vulnerability in the workplace where people may only know one side of us. And so because of that, I think, unfortunately, a lot of us might rely on this script from childhood where we just need to wait for friendships to come into our lives organically, not realizing that as adults, it no longer works that way.

[Marissa Franco]

Yeah, I had never thought of it that way. I thought it was more of a, you know, kids are just more willing to go up to somebody and say, hi, want to be my friend, and adults don't do that.

[Mike Carruthers]

I can see that too, that adults may be a little bit more afraid of initiating with other people. And that's honestly one of the biggest barriers that I see when it comes to making friends. We're all so, so afraid of rejection. But the truth is, Mike, that we're actually a lot less likely to be rejected than we think. There's research on a phenomenon called the liking gap, where when strangers interact and they predict how much the other person likes them, they tend to underestimate how much the other person likes them. Which is why one of my biggest tips for making friends as an adult is to assume people like you so you'll actually initiate with people. And now the research also finds that when researchers sort of manipulated people to think that they would be liked, even though that wasn't true, people actually became more likable because they were more open, more agreeable, more friendly. It's called the acceptance prophecy. Whereas people that think they'll be rejected suffer from something called rejection sensitivity. And what happens is when these people are exposed to ambiguous circumstances, like someone's quieter, they tend to escalate by shutting down, being withdrawn, and they sort of will and manifest the same rejection that they fear.

[Marissa Franco]

So when we see someone do something like get quiet, or somebody does something that we perceive as rejection, we blow that up. And it's often just all in our head.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. And you know what? I will say, surprisingly, from my read of the research, who's most likely to reject you is the person that fears rejection the most because they're engaging in self protective behaviors to protect themselves against rejection, which tend to manifest as rejection of other people.

[Marissa Franco]

Well, because I've always thought that, you know, if you're, if you're at a function, if you're at a party or some sort of event, and there's lots of people there and people are, you know, Reluctant to go up and talk to. Well, why are those other people there? They wouldn't be there if they didn't want to talk to you. They would have stayed at home.

[Ellen Jovan]

Exactly.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. There was a really interesting study of networking events that found that 95% of people wanted to meet new people, and yet most people interacted with people they already know. But I think it's really helpful to know this information, because now if I go into a social event, I know everybody's just waiting for. For me to introduce myself, and they're more than likely going to be very open to it if I do.

[Marissa Franco]

To make a friend is to do what? Because every friend has to start as an acquaintance first or just someone you meet. What's that progression look like?

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. So one thing that I suggest to people is to build social infrastructure, which to me means recreating environments that give you continuous unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability. So that means joining an improv club, joining a language group. Don't join something that's one off. Because when you just go to something, that happens once, you don't capitalize on something called the mere exposure effect, which is our tendency to like people the more familiar that they are. So it's normal and natural when we first meet someone for us to be uncomfortable, for it to be awkward, for us to be weary. But according to the research, if we can stick with it for a few months, what will happen over time is that not only will they like us more, but we'll also like them more. And this happens completely unconsciously. We don't even have to talk to each other. But if we've been exposed to each other's faces, over time, we'll come to like each other more and more.

[Marissa Franco]

Well, what are some of the things that bring people theoretically more together? I mean, meeting somebody, an event. At an event, you might meet 10, 15, 20 people. They're not all gonna become friends. So what is it that makes the friend stick out?

[Mike Carruthers]

So we all tend to have something called disregard criteria, which are snap judgments we might make as to whether someone will be our friend. And this might be based on someone's age, someone's gender, someone's race, these sort of criteria that we use very shallow criteria to determine whether someone can be our friend. And so we'll be more interested and open if someone doesn't violate our unconscious disregard criteria. Other than that, I would say commonality. If we hear that people have things in common and why commonality leads to friendship is because, you know, people ask me what's the secret to be being more likable and it's actually to like people. There's a theory called the theory of inferred attraction, which basically indicates that people like people, that they think like them. And when someone has something in common with us, we assume that they'll like us more, which makes us more comfortable continuing on with the friendship.

[Marissa Franco]

So, like in romance, you can't go up to somebody and say, will you be my friend? Because that's going to typically make the person run away. Because there's something weird about saying, will you be my friend? Just like, will you be my girlfriend or my boyfriend or whatever. And so are there preferred more successful ways to start the relationship and continue to build the relationship, or it just kind of happens or it doesn't.

[Mike Carruthers]

I would say friendship absolutely does not happen organically. In fact, people that see it as something that happens without effort are more lonely over time, according to the research. So if I. If I had to talk to someone who has no friends and wants to make a new friend, I would say find a hobby or interest that you can engage in with a community over time. Right. So you can capitalize on that mere exposure effect. You have to attend to overcoming something called overt avoidance, which is our tendency to avoid interacting with people generally. Generally because they scare us. But also covert avoidance, which is our tendency to. When we show up to interact with other people, we actually close ourselves off mentally. We're on our phone, we're talking to the one person we already know. We're not introducing ourselves to others. So you also have to come overcome covert avoidance by saying to someone at that book club you join, hey, my name's Marissa. How did you like this book? How long have you been coming here? After you've been going for a few times, pick the person that you feel like you connect with the most so far and then ask them, like, hey, I'd love for us to keep connecting. Would it be okay with you if we exchange contact information and then reach out to them to meet up either before or after the next book club event? And importantly, you'll still have that social infrastructure of the book club, which will continue to nurture the friendship over time, even if you're not consistently reaching out to them. But it's a good idea to also consistently reach out to them to build the friendship.

[Marissa Franco]

Marissa Franco is my guest. She's an expert on friendship and author of the book how the Science of Attachment can make and Keep Friends. There are just some things you come across that you have to tell people about and because I like you have a cell phone and I know it can get expensive, I'm telling people about Mint Mobile. They offer Premium Wireless for $15 a month when you purchase a three month plan. Now I have Mint Mobile and before that I was paying a lot more than that for my wireless plan. And I'm wondering why would anyone do that? You see, all Mint Mobile plans come with high speed data, unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with your existing contacts too. So ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile's deal and get three months of premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. To get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com something that's mintmobile.com something. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com something $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month new customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. You know, today anyone can sell anything online. And if you use Shopify to do it, you are setting yourself up for success. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Whether you're just setting up shop or you have a physical store, or even if you've had a million orders or more, Shopify will help you grow your business. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers. They have the Internet's best converting checkout 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And what I love about Shopify and what you can see when you peek inside. No matter how big or small you are, Shopify offers everything to manage and control your business. And what's really great is you don't need to know anything about web design or coding or anything. Plus, Shopify's award winning help is there to support you every step of the way. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase go to shopify.comsysk to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.comSYSK so Marissa, is there any sense of how long it takes to make a friend? How how long it takes to go from 0 to 60 to get to a friendship?

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, there's a researcher, Jeffrey hall, who has, you know, his Study on how many hours does it take, and he finds about 150 hours. But I guess part of me is a little bit skeptical because I know that making a friend also depends on how we interact. And there are certain ways we can interact that make us more likely to become friends with one another. So there is a study that followed basically new friends over 12 weeks to predict who would stay friends over time for whom would the friendship intensify. And one of the most important factors was whether people shared affection towards each other. You know, compliment each other, praise each other. And that's, I think, is really, really important for solidifying connection, according to a theory called risk regulation theory. Risk regulation theory argues that basically we decide how much to invest in a relationship based on our perception of how likely we are to get rejected. If we think we won't get rejected, we invest more. And so when you share affection with someone, when you say, oh, I've just really enjoyed your company, or you really made me think when we've hung out together, or I just really appreciate this, like, thank you so much. When we do things like that, we tell people, hey, you're not going to get rejected. And remember how I said fear of rejection is one of the biggest barriers to friendship? So the more that we can make people feel like they won't be rejected, the more they'll want to be friends with us. And so the implications of this is if you want to belong, make other people feel like they'll belong.

[Marissa Franco]

So not all friends are equal, right? You have good friends, you have a best friend, you have some minor friends. So how do people end up where they end up on that hierarchy?

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, one of the big factors, I would say, is vulnerability. Are you able to feel comfortable being vulnerable with each other, Sharing your struggles, sharing what's really going on? There's this study on, it's called, like the 36 questions to fall in love that was covered in the New York Times. But it's based on the study that when this researcher gave people questions of increasing intimacy to do together, they found that at the end of just a short period of time for people answering these questions, they reported being being pretty close to each other just within an hour. And so that research really finds. And other research that finds that actually when we're vulnerable, people like us more. Where I think a lot of us have the misconception that people like us less. But in fact, when we're vulnerable, we show to people that we trust them and that we like them. And so when we can really, really Be vulnerable with each other. That's when we see the friendship really deepening.

[Marissa Franco]

And to be vulnerable means what it.

[Mike Carruthers]

Means to share something that you fear is risky or exposing. Like me sharing what I'm struggling with, me sharing my relationship issues, me sharing even what has put me in a bad mood today. It's me sharing information that. It's me sharing information that we're in. I might feel like you can use it against me, or I might feel like if you don't respond positively to this information, I'm going to be particularly affected by that. And that's why when people do respond positively, it really builds our sense of trust with them.

[Marissa Franco]

What about the lifespan of a friendship? Some friendships last forever and some fade away and some break up.

[Mike Carruthers]

Absolutely. And I wanted to share that it's absolutely normal to go through these breakups with friends. And actually, every seven years, we lose about half our friends. Interestingly, also, about half of our friends don't consider us their friends. So that's technically not a friendship because friendship is founded on reciprocity. And so because of that, I think generally we can think that friendships are going to fall away. What we do know from the research is that the longer a friendship has lasted, the more likely it is to continue to last. But in general, we will be losing friends throughout our lifespan.

[Marissa Franco]

Wait, you said half our friends don't consider us friends?

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, yeah. Half our friends don't reciprocate the friendship. Isn't that sad?

[Marissa Franco]

Well, I don't know. I don't think I get it. How could you think someone is a friend and they don't.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, it just happens, I guess. People have different definitions of what they might consider a friend. And so it's hard, I think, for us to put our finger on. And that's one of the. I would say the difficulties of friendship. It's so ambiguous. Right. We don't have the. The sort of proof that someone's invested in us like we might have with someone who's married or we share blood with. Which is why I think friendship can really bring out some of our insecurities.

[Marissa Franco]

Well, how has social media, like you say, and people say they have friends on social media, but those aren't friends. And I also wonder if social media interferes with friendship because it's an easy way to keep in touch with people, but you're not really in touch with people. People.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. So it's. It's a really mixed bag in the research, I would say, because social media's link with loneliness really Depends on how you use it. If you're someone who uses social media to facilitate in person interaction, you're sliding in someone's DMs on Instagram to be like, let's hang out. You're going to be less lonely. But if you use it to replace in person interaction, if you're just interacting with people over social media and you're not seeing people in real life, then it's going to make you more lonely, you know, interestingly, I would say when we take a step back and look at the larger research on this topic, that social media has been a net negative for our connections. Because actually, in 2012, there was a stark increase in loneliness, especially for people between the ages of 18 and 24. In 2012, people between the ages of 18 and 24 had the best mental health of any age group, and now they have the worst. And what happened in 2012, that was the popularization of the smartphone.

[Marissa Franco]

No coincidence there.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, it's really fascinating, you know, like these smartphone usage, especially for the younger generations, have been found to decrease their level of empathy because we develop empathy through looking into someone's eyes. And so when we're not doing that, we can't really read other people's feelings, which is so key to being able to connect with people.

[Marissa Franco]

So what about friendship? Do you that we haven't talked about? Do you think people either don't understand or would benefit from knowing that they may not know from all the work you've done?

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, I kind of mentioned this, but I wanted to just sort of bring out this theme. And my read of the research is that in general, the world is a lot safer than what we assume and what we predict. I already talked about the liking gap, wherein researchers found that when strangers interact, they underestimate how much the other person is to like them. There's also a phenomenon called the beautiful mess effect, which basically finds that when we're vulnerable, we think people are judging us more than they actually are, and we underestimate how positively they're perceiving us when we're vulnerable. Similarly, when we share affection, we assume it'll come off as more awkward than it will, and we discount how much other people will appreciate it and be thankful for it. And so in general, I think making friends feels like a risk, and it is a risk. Intimacy is a risk. We might be rejected, but it's actually far less likely, it's far less risky than we think it is. And so I want to encourage anybody who's listening today and is scared to ask someone to hang out who they think is really cool, that, hey, they actually might be a lot more likely to be open to it than you think. Particularly at a time like now, when so many of us have lost friends in the pandemic and are even more open to wanting to connect with you now.

[Marissa Franco]

I wanted to ask you because I know I've had this thought. As much as I might like talking to someone, I don't necessarily want to be their friend. I mean, I've had that situation. I've been at events or parties or whatever, and it's great talking to the person, but I don't see them as friend material for me, even though it's perfectly fine and pleasant right now, it's going to stop right here.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. And that's real. I think when you're making friends, inevitably you face the risk of rejection. Right? And I see rejection as a friendship expert. I really see rejection as a good thing. Because if you're curating the life that you really want, if you're going for the people that you really want to be part of your social network, inevitably rejection is a consolation prize for that. So if you're getting rejected, that means you're initiating. That means you're going for the people that you really want relationship with. That means you're really curating your life. So at the end of the day, like if you're building the skill of initiating, if you're putting yourself out there, if you're living up to your values, I see it as a success, even if the outcome isn't what you hoped for.

[Marissa Franco]

Well, for anyone who wants to understand how friendship works and how to make friendship work, this really has been a great conversation. Marissa Franco has been my guest. She is a friendship expert whose work has appeared in Psychology Today, Scientific American and the New York Times. And she's author of the book how the Science of Attachment can make and Keep Friends. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you, Marissa.

[Mike Carruthers]

Thank you so much for having me, Mike. Looking forward to listening to the episode.

[Rob Benedict]

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[Marissa Franco]

If you're listening to this podcast, you most likely speak at least some English. And English is a tricky language. There are a lot of rules, and sometimes the rules contradict other rules, and then there's pronunciation and punctuation that doesn't always seem to make sense. And English is in some ways more than one language. American English is different than British English in many ways. So to help us understand and use the language better is Ellen Jovan. She holds degrees from Harvard and UCLA, and she has studied 25 languages. She's author of a book called Rebel Without a Tales and Tips from a Roving Grammarian. Hey, Ellen. Hi. Welcome.

[Ellen Jovan]

Thank you, Mike. I'm so happy to be here.

[Marissa Franco]

So I've heard, we've all heard that English is a complicated language. Why is it so complicated?

[Ellen Jovan]

One of the complications with English is that there is just a ton of variety. That's what you get with a global language with many different dialects spoken by people who don't actually always have contact with one another. And it's one of the things that I find exciting and adventurous about the English language.

[Marissa Franco]

So here's an example of a question I think a lot of people have that we have two words, further and farther and farther technically refers to physical distance, you went farther, you didn't go further, you walked farther. But does it really matter?

[Ellen Jovan]

Further and farther is an interesting one for me because I ran into a person in Maryland when I was sitting at my pop up traveling grammar advice stand and she was very angry about that. She didn't like that people said further when they met for distance. For physical distance, she wanted them to use farther. And so that was an example for her of a nails on the chalkboard kind of thing. The reality for me, I definitely do not care about that one. And in fact, if you go, you know, look it up, you can see that further is used often and has been historically for both physical distances and for metaphorical distances. Like, for example, I went further down the block, I investigated the matter further. I could do both of those, even though the sense is slightly different. But some purists will insist on using far for anything where you can kind of measure it with a ruler.

[Marissa Franco]

Same thing for lie down or lay down. It's hard to always remember what's right. And again, does it really matter?

[Ellen Jovan]

Yeah, there's a lot of discussion about that. I talk to an awful lot of people about lie down and lay down. And in a lot of people's sort of natural dialects, they grow up speaking, they just use lay down. In cases where I, for example, would use lie down, I need to lay down for a bit there, I would say lie down. They're both words that begin with L. They're short, they sound the same you use to lay when you have an object, he should lay that down on the picnic table versus he should lie down. So the one with lay has an object, a thing right after it that is being acted upon in casual speech. Even very sophisticated people, actually not just casual speech writing too. Very, very sophisticated people often can't remember the difference. And you know, I've met plenty of advocates for just, oh, just get rid of it. Let's just have it be one word so we can stop worrying about it.

[Marissa Franco]

I think people who are interested in this topic, everybody has like their at least one little thing that they're a stickler about. And one that I hear a lot is like when you say, how are you? And some people say I'm good, and other people say, no, no, no, no, you're well, you're not good. What say you?

[Ellen Jovan]

I actually have trouble with this because I was raised as a, you know, to say I am well. You're supposed to say, well, because that says that tells about your health, your well being, that kind of thing. Whereas if you say I'm good, it's like proclaiming that you're morally good. So that was a big deal when I was a kid. It just doesn't really match up with how people use these things. I think now I am, well, can sound pedantic to a lot of people, especially in the younger half of the population. So I often reply with things like I'm doing well or I'm fine, thanks, how are you? So I kind of avoid the. The different, you know, choosing between those. I can't say because of my childhood. I just can't say I'm good. It just isn't. It doesn't feel comfortable for me because I would feel as though it's an error.

[Marissa Franco]

What about punctuation? People get so confused about punctuation. For example, I can't remember the last time I used a semicolon because I don't really know when to use it.

[Ellen Jovan]

I don't think that there is a daily minimum requirement for semicolons. I do use them. I'm kind of attached to the semicolon. And in fact, I sometimes look over my email before I send. When I look over my email before I send it, I sometimes have to take out a semicolon or two because I can go a little bit crazy. I'll even use a semicolon in a tweet. But the most common place for them is between what could be two complete sentences. So in a place where you could put a period, but you want to bring them more closely together, they're related ideas. And you want. You. You just want the pause between them to be less. Less stark, so that people connect them more in their. In their brains or. Yeah. And there can be a certain kind of quiet suspense to the semicolon. I think I like it.

[Marissa Franco]

Wow. I never looked at it that way. Versus the colon, which I think has a more structured use. Right.

[Ellen Jovan]

Well, colons are funny because most often in normal daily life, the way people would use them is in front of a list and not in front of all lists. For example, I might say she ordered three items. Books, desks, and. What should my third one be? Ping pong tables, you know, the usual list. So on the left of that colon you have three items, and on the right of the colon you have the three items. There's almost like an equivalency happening there. You can also do that kind of thing when you have a dramatic. This is a more, I think, literary use and people should be cautious about this. But sometimes you'll see A sentence, colon, and then another sentence. And often it's kind of a ta da. This is a big deal. Like, I'm setting this up for you. Here we are, we're arriving at this dramatic second piece. But I don't recommend people play around with that too much unless they read and get us. You know, they read and they get a sense of how experienced authors are doing it. It's mostly a more banal list kind of thing.

[Marissa Franco]

It's sometimes there's an apostrophe in there and sometimes there's not. And I think I overuse the apostrophe. So what's the rule?

[Ellen Jovan]

Do we need to put you on an apostrophe diet?

[Marissa Franco]

Apparently so.

[Ellen Jovan]

Well, what's confusing about it with the apostrophe is that usually when we think apostrophe, well, in many cases we think possessive. Like if I say Mary's chair, it would be Mary apostrophe S chair, the chair of Mary. But these possessive forms of pronouns, that's what you have with it or hers or theirs or ours with those. There are no apostrophes, and the its work similarly. Like, its tail was wagging. No apostrophe. So in that case, if you have an apostrophe in an its, it's going to its. See there, right that second. I just used one. It's going to be a contraction. So either for it is or it has. So here I'll give you two examples. It's raining. It apostrophe s raining, or it's been a long time since we last spoke. It has been a long time since we last spoke. Both apostrophes. Its tail was wagging. No apostrophe at all.

[Marissa Franco]

Oh, here you have an example in the book. Is it I saw a UFO or I saw an ufo because UFO begins with a U, so. But nobody says an ufo.

[Ellen Jovan]

That's a funny example. In Standard English, people typically will use an before a word beginning with a vowel, and they'll use a before a word beginning with the consonant. So the A versus an UFO example, I included, because often this is for the overthinkers, though this is for the overthinkers among us, because I've seen people look at something like ufo, which literally on the page in writing, begins with what we think of as a vowel. But the issue is not how it's spelled. The issue is how you say it. And when you say ufo, if you think about it, how do you pronounce the letter? When you say the letter U, it has A Y sound at the beginning Y, and that therefore requires a vowel in front. So a ufo.

[Marissa Franco]

So you pick one of these that you find interesting or people ask you a lot about.

[Ellen Jovan]

Okay, I have a good one for you. People often ask me about sentences concluding in prepositions. And a preposition is one of these relationship words. Like if you think of a desk, here are some prepositions. Over the desk, under the desk, near the desk, for the desk. So these are words. These are little relationship words. And a lot of people, I'm including myself among those people, were taught when we were kids that we should not end with a preposition. So, you know, in the sentence, that's the woman I was telling you about, some people will interrupt themselves mid conversation or they'll rewrite their email so that it says something like, that is the woman about which I was telling you. And it sounds very stilted. It's not a particularly natural structure for most of us. Doesn't really coincide with how we speak. But people will remember. Oh, Ms. Smith in eighth grade English taught me that. So I'm going to rearrange my sentence and I have to. That's probably the one thing when I tell people that actually you can end with a preposition if it feels appropriate and more natural to you. I mean, you don't need to seek it out every opportunity you get, because some of them can be awkward in their own way, but often it's the best way to do things. And you should get rid of that superstition from your childhood English classes and move along and get with the English program which allows you to do that.

[Marissa Franco]

Here's. Let me see if I can think of an example. Oh, yeah. So here's an example of something that confuses me sometimes. I saw this couple. They were nice. Well, it's a couple and then it's they. So what? Something's not right there.

[Ellen Jovan]

You are really getting right to the tough ones here. So a couple is what is known as a collective noun. It has a singular form. This is what it means. It has a singular form, but refers to multiple entities. And people struggle so much with what to do, especially with verbs that go with the word couple. So, yes, no one's going to say, what was your sentence? I saw a couple. No one's going to say, I saw a couple. It was nice, right? You can't do that. You can't refer. Even though it's singular, you can't say, it was nice. You have to say they. So there is a schism between the singular form of couple and then what you want to do with it later. Now, in English, I would do what you did. I would switch to they, where this causes confusion, mostly because most people just put they and not even think about it. But people argue about the verbs that go with couple. Would you say, let's see, the couple, that nice young couple is moving in next door. That nice young couple are moving in next door. A lot of Americans will say is automatically, and I probably would in that case, too. But there's language variety. If you cross the Atlantic and you're in the uk, you're going to be more likely to hear nouns like that used with plural verbs. That nice young couple are moving in next door.

[Marissa Franco]

Well, as you say, there are a lot of influences on language, and those influences eventually make changes in the language. And then there are people who are, you know, kind of holding the line saying, well, those changes are not proper English, but eventually they become proper English.

[Ellen Jovan]

Absolutely. There's always going to be a tension between generations. You know, so we grow up, we have our own slang, we speak in a certain way. We're used to certain things. There are, I don't know, educational trends that affect how we're taught. And we grow up and then things evolve. You know, young people don't want the slang of the generation above them. They want their own. They have their own way of speaking. And there are always going to be little gaps demographically between different groups. I think it's actually really interesting and fun, and it's something that, for me, keeps English being an adventure.

[Marissa Franco]

And what I love, what fascinates me about slang, not that I know much about it, is how the word cool has transcended everything. Cool has been cool forever.

[Ellen Jovan]

It does seem to have enduring power. I used that when I was a teenager, and I still use it.

[Marissa Franco]

Isn't that amazing that that one word, there's no other slang word. Well, it's not even slang anymore, but there's no other slang word that has lasted as long as that.

[Ellen Jovan]

I can't personally verify that, but it is one of the. Well, here's the thing. A lot of times I think it's important to recognize our own limitations in knowing what our usage actually is. This happens to me a lot. Someone will say to me, I never do XYZ like on Twitter. What's interesting about Twitter, someone will say, I never use XYZ in this way. But then, not that I do this a lot, but I have done that. You can use the Twitter feature to find an example instantly in their own tweets that contradicts what they just said. So people think they know what they do. And some are very self aware and are probably pretty well informed about what they do. But others just as they just think they know what they're doing because they remember what they were told in school and they think they're following it, but they're not necessarily. And I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I think in analyzing our own language use, we need to remember that those words that are tumbling out of us every single day, all day long, for some of us, we don't always know exactly what we just said.

[Marissa Franco]

There are times in English where you say or read a sentence where the word is repeated like he had had enough. Is that correct?

[Ellen Jovan]

Yes, I love examples like that. I think they're fun. So. And he had had enough. You have, for people who like the technical names, that is an example of past perfect. So you have a form of the verb to have first that's used across all perfect verb combinations. For example, I have eaten the cheese is present perfect. I had eaten the cheese is past perfect, I will have eaten the cheese is future perfect. And when you do had, had, what you have is the past perfect of the verb to have. So in that case, you have to use have for the first form, because that's just how it works. A form of have in this case had, and then you end up with another had, because that's just how it goes. So I had, had. I had had too much to eat when dessert arrived.

[Marissa Franco]

So here's something that happens when you write a sentence that contains a list. Like if I were to write I got my coat, hat and gloves, that's the sentence. I got my coat, hat and gloves. I would put a comma after my coat, comma, hat and gloves. But Microsoft Word and I imagine other word processing programs tell you that there should be a comma after hat. It should be my coat comma, hat, comma and gloves. I don't typically do that. Who's right?

[Ellen Jovan]

It's not wrong to leave the comma out. It's not wrong to put it in. So this is an example of one of those gray areas. The comma before the and, which is known as the Oxford comma, The serial comma, or the series comma, depending on where and when you learned about it, is one of the biggest obsessions grammatically of Americans I have found. I get asked about it constantly. I put it in these days. But when I worked as a freelance reporter and I was following Associated Press style. I usually left it out. So it really doesn't matter that much unless you have a situation where the list is complicated. For example, if there's an and in one of the items on the list, it's better to go comma heavy so people can tell where the boundaries are between items.

[Marissa Franco]

Is there anything else that people ask you a lot that they're confused about when they're writing or speaking English?

[Ellen Jovan]

I get asked a lot about affect and effect. So is it A F, F, E, C, T or do you write the word beginning with initial e e, F, F, e, C, T. And so usually the one with the e is a noun and the one with an a is a verb. So your behavior affects me. That would be an A. Your behavior has an effect on me would be an E. That is the those are the most common differences. There are some specialized instances for each, but that covers the bulk of cases that people will encounter.

[Marissa Franco]

Well, I always enjoy talking about how the language works because everyone has questions about it, they're confused about things, and it's it's always good to get some clarification on a lot of the most common ones. My guest has been Ellen Jovan. She is a grammar expert and author of the book Rebel Without a Tales and Tips from a Roving Grammarian, and there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Ellen. Thanks for being here.

[Ellen Jovan]

Well, I love grammar and I'm always happy to speak about it. Thank you for having me on.

[Marissa Franco]

How many times do you chew your food? Well, if you were to count, you would want to count 21 times per bite. That's the number of times the average lean person chews. According to a study, the average obese person chews only 17 times per bite. You've probably heard that chewing more can result in weighing less, and apparently it's true. Dr. Chiron Wang, author of the study, says the act of chewing releases hormones that tell the brain when to stop eating and will eventually start to suppress the appetite. So chewing your food more can help you weigh less, and that is something you should know. Reviews are always helpful because it helps us with the rankings, but it also helps us know what people think. So please leave a review for our podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'm micahruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know, ladies and gentlemen. What are you doing? What do you mean? Just keep it simple. I'm making the promo. Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros. Two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav bro. No. Oh, dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple. I've seen promos on tv, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are get tired of it already. We need some oomph. All right then fine.

[Ellen Jovan]

Let's try to do it with your voice.

[Marissa Franco]

Brav Bros. Good job. Hi, this is Rob Benedict and I am Richard Speight. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit.

[Ellen Jovan]

Of a left field choice in the best way possible.

[Mike Carruthers]

The note from Kripke was he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type with.

[Marissa Franco]

15 seasons to explore. It's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.