A (3:44)

I love that definition that you're feeling what isn't there. Because as soon as you said that, I could feel it. I mean, that's exactly what it is. It's that absence of something that you want or need or miss or something.

B (3:58)

And it's a terrible feeling. It is really bad for you. In fact, the Surgeon General defined loneliness as the number one medical problem in the United States today. Not cancer, not heart disease. Loneliness. Most people don't realize how bad it is for you. In fact, social isolation is as dangerous for early death as cigarette smoking. Most people have no idea about that. If you ask them to list risk factors, they'll say, cigarette smoking, obesity, genetics, don't wear your seatbelt. Nobody puts down loneliness, but my gosh, it's right near the top of the list. And if people would make it a priority to connect, I call it the other vitamin C Vitamin connect. It is the most powerful force that most people don't make use of. I urge people, you know, if you go to the supermarket, talk to the guy at the checkout counter, he needs it or she needs it as much as you do.

A (4:52)

So help me understand why. What it is about loneliness that makes it so dangerous? Is it the loneliness itself or when you are lonely, you tend to do bad things like drink more, smoke more, eat more, or is there something inherent about loneliness that is harmful?

B (5:11)

All of the above. When you're feeling lonely, your immune system suffers and you are putting out stress hormones that are caustic. And then what? You also said you're inclined to try to fill in the emptiness with things like online gambling or drinking or drug use or dangerous liaisons or dangerous business deals, reckless going online, connecting in chat rooms where you don't know who you're talking to. And it's. It's really just about people trying to find a meaningful ways of connecting. And I can't tell you how many patients I've prescribed a dog for. I mean, dogs are the world's great. I dedicated my last book to dogs. I said, it's no accident that God spelled backwards as dog. You know, it's. Dogs are the world's best connectors. And, you know, so if you have a dog, chances are you're not going to feel lonely or nearly as lonely.

A (6:13)

Yeah. And anybody who's ever had a dog knows that that relationship is very fulfilling. But it's still a human dog relationship. It isn't the same as connecting with people.

B (6:27)

And in fact, I tell people, young people, what is the purpose of growing up? What is the goal of growing up? And the answers I get are like, get into the best school you can get into. Lay the foundation for making a good living. And I say, no, no, the purpose, what you want to do while you're growing up is fall in love. You want to fall in love with a person, that's fine, but with a subject, an idea, an activity, an ant. The great entomologist E. O. Wilson, who just died, fell in love with ants in a parking lot in Alabama because he was a lonely kid. So he went out to the field next door and started studying ants and became one of the great entomologists. Professor at Harvard, author of many book. But it was born out of his feeling lonely as a kid in Alabama, and he found his companionship in ants.

A (7:19)

But what is the reason, do you think, that people have such trouble connecting with people? Because, you know, there's a lot of people, there's like billions of them. So you would think that connecting with people would be easier than it apparently is. Why do some people find themselves lonely?

B (7:37)

The reason people stick with loneliness is they're afraid. They're afraid of being rejected, they're afraid of being sued. They're afraid of saying the wrong thing. You know, in this age of PC, everyone's afraid to say the wrong thing. They're afraid of looking stupid. And so they hold back. They hold back on life out of fear. And they create their own little bubble, their own little prison, which is toxic.

A (8:02)

And so you said a few moments ago that you need to connect and that one thing you could do is talk to the cashier at the store or wave to the person next to you. That's not really a connection. That's just a kind of a polite, hi, how are you? See you later. So how does that help?

B (8:18)

Well, it actually is a connection. You'll get a little drip of dopamine when you do that you'll get a little affirmation. You can wave to a stranger all clear across the parking lot. If it's a snowy day or something, you say snowy day, and he waves back. It takes a half a second. That is a connection. It's not a lifelong connection. You'll never see the person again. But don't take it lightly. Small talk is very big talk. Small talk is the root into deeper relationships, for sure, but it all begins with small talk. You know, the strong, silent man is a lonely man on his way to a heart attack. You know, it's not a good recipe. So make the little chit chat. Make the. Don't take it lightly. It's very, very, very important.

A (9:05)

I remember hearing, maybe it was from you, and we've talked in the past, that that intense pain that loneliness causes is evolutionary, that we're not meant to be that way. We can't survive if we're all alone. And that that's a motivation, a push to get rid of that feeling. And the only way to get rid of it is to go connect with people.

B (9:30)

That is so true. It's wired into us. It's wired into our endocrine system. Even, you know, any of you listeners who've had children, the moment you give birth, either through, you know, the normal way or through adoption, the moment you become a parent for the first time, nature sees to it that you enter into a permanent state of psychosis. Your whole body changes, your brain changes. You fall madly, insanely crazy in love with this little peeing and pooping machine whom you don't even know. And yet you almost instantly become not only willing but eager to give away your time, your money, your sleep, your dignity. And you know you gotta be crazy to do it. And you say, this is so much fun, let's do it again.

A (10:15)

We're talking about loneliness, and we're talking about it with Dr. Edward Hallowell. He is a psychiatrist, author of several books and one of which is called Connect. You know what's weird about hair loss? It doesn't happen all at once. You just sort of notice it one day, huh? I've got three brothers. Every one of them has lost his hair. And so when I noticed mine was thinning a few years ago, I didn't want to wait around to see how that turned out. That's when I found hims. And what sold me was how simple it was. No appointments, no waiting rooms. Everything happens online. You answer a few questions, a licensed medical provider reviews it, and if treatment makes sense, it just shows up at your door. I use the spray maybe 30 seconds a day. And from everything I've read, starting earlier really matters. For simple online access to personalized and affordable care for hair loss, ED, weight loss and more, visit hims.com something that's himss.com something for your free online himss.com something featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information. Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. I don't really like buying clothes online just because the odds are so bad. I've sent back more things than I've kept, so I didn't expect much from Quince. And yet I was wrong. Dead wrong. I love Quince. Everything fits. I don't think we've sent anything back. I mean, they're cashmere sweaters. I've got two of them. They are ridiculously soft. They hold up. And they didn't cost a fortune. I mean, we've bought so much from Quint's jeans, shoes, shirts, belts. The prices are amazing. And that's because Quince works directly with top factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying for brand markup. You're paying for quality clothes that actually last. So at this point, before I buy anything new, I check Quint's first. Not out of loyalty. Well, maybe a little out of loyalty, but mostly just experience. Quince delivers. So refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I-N-C-E.com sysk so Ned, it's my sense that around Valentine's Day, you know, Valentine's Day is wonderful for people who have a valentine to celebrate it with, but that for people who don't have a valentine or who don't feel connected, who feel lonely. It makes the loneliness even worse to watch all these other people celebrate all the love in their life.

B (13:17)

Absolutely they do. My advice to you is maybe take that holiday as a chance to developing some kind of connection that can become meaningful. Maybe it's a time to get a dog, or maybe it's a time to go back to church or synagogue. Or maybe it's a time to take up some hobby that you've wanted to take up. Even something as simple as crocheting or cooking or starting a little garden inside your house. There are things you can take up that will serve as points of connection and then you can find other people who are interested in that, you know. And you know one of my favorite lines, I use it all the time. It really, it's a line to live by. Never worry alone. So when you're feeling upset, worried, concerned, reach out somehow. Doesn't have to be in person, it doesn't have to be, you know, against your grain. But don't worry alone. That's when bad things happen. That's when you do self destructive stuff. That's when you feel intense despair. That's when people commit suicide, you know, when you're worrying alone. So never worry alone is a really good watchword. And another thing you can do is when you're feeling these bleak black moments where you're sort of ruminating. We know from brain science there's a certain network in the brain that takes over. It's called the default mode network, the dmn, which I call the demon. What you want to do is don't feed the demon. And what do you feed it with? Your attention. Well, do something else. Fry an egg, dig a hole, do a crossword, do something else. Shut off the DMN's oxygen supply, which is your attention. And by the way, the reason that we feed it is contentment is too bland. You don't say he or she was riveted in contentment, but you do say he or she was riveted in despair, loneliness, misery, foreboding. It's riveting and that's why you keep feeding it with your attention. You got to be ruthless and shut it off. Redirect your attention onto something else. And it literally can save your life if you do that. But try to keep those two phrases in mind. Never worry alone and don't feed the demon.

A (15:37)

That is some really great advice because everyone who has ever, and I assume it is everyone has ever worried alone knows that when you bring somebody else in on your worry, it somehow lightens up.

B (15:50)

It's magical. It's magical and it really is. Suddenly the worry turns into problem solving. It is magical. It's like my thought experience. Imagine you're standing in a big dark warehouse by yourself. You feel terrified, paranoid. If you're there with someone, you laugh. There's something about the presence of another person that instantly, as you put it, lightens the load. And the next thing you know, you're problem solving. How do we get out of here?

A (16:21)

I've heard it described as a paradox, really, that we are with social media. And the Internet, we are more connected than ever. And yet a lot of those social media kind of connections aren't real connections and exacerbate the problem of loneliness because you're connected, but not in the way that people used to be connected. What do you think about social media connections? Is it that? Is it exacerbating the problem?

B (16:51)

I take issue with that point. It's all a matter of how you use it. My family, for example, uses social media to great advantage. We have a, you know, I don't know what the word for it is, but we're all on the same little platform and we send each other messages and it facilitates, deepens human connection. Now the danger is when it replaces human connection, that's the danger. So it's all a matter of how you use.

A (17:18)

Would seem that because loneliness is so painful and a lot of people suffer that pain in silence, it must be because, at least in part, that it's just so difficult to get up and go, try to connect with people. It's just really hard for them to do so. What's your advice for those people who would love to connect but just don't even know where to begin?

B (17:45)

I'll tell you a quick story. Do we have time for a quick story?

A (17:48)

Sure, of course.

B (17:49)

Oh, great. Okay. Well, so I consulted some 20 years ago to the Harvard chemistry department because they had their most gifted graduate student committed suicide and left a note explicitly blaming Harvard. As we looked into it, the chair of the department, Jim Anderson, a wonderful man, basically put his research career on hold to figure out what was going on. And we discovered it was one of many suicides in that department in the previous decade. And the reason for it was the community was horribly disconnected. It was like a dungeon. It was just there was no connection. Everyone was paranoid. There were two coping styles, work harder or get drunk. And most people did both every day. So you had an entire department of, with five Nobel prize winners in it and some thousand brilliant little genius postdocs and graduate students miserable because they were so disconnected. So we had to figure out a way to connect them now with that group of people, really smart, often middle European, barely English speaking, very high IQ folks. If you said, let's have a mixer, nobody would show up because it's not in their comfort zone. And so we had to figure out, how do you bait the trap? How do you bring people out of hiding? Because they were hiding. They were paranoid. Well, one of the universal answers to that question is food. So we'd reach out to the best restaurants in Cambridge. And we'd cater weekly buffets where there'd be wonderful good food, there'd be some beer and wine. And these introverted shy grad students would come out of hiding for food. And the next thing you know, they get talking to one another in spite of themselves. And the next thing you know, there's a softball team, there's a symphony club, there's a. They started putting wax boards next to the elevators. So instead of making small talk at the elevator, they could draw equations and tell each other what they were working on. You meet them where they are, and lo and behold, over the course of the year, we really changed the culture of that department. So it's a grim statistic, but it's very significant. There have been no suicides since. The proudest award I ever got was the chemistry department gave me the department medal. I'm the first non chemist who has ever received that. But well done. Yeah, thank you. But it really drove home to me, number one, how lethal disconnection is. I mean, literally people dying, but how plantable it is, how startable it is, because it's in every. Even the most introverted, reclusive person wants to connect. Loneliness hurts everybody. So you just have to find the right way. And like in our case, food was the catalyst. Food was what got the ball rolling. Then. Then people jump in and take over. And the next thing you know, the town can go from being isolated and separated and paranoid, as so many places are these days, to connecting. Maybe you have a block party, maybe you have a yard sale, maybe you have a let's root for the local team movement or something, that people can join in and connect with each other without making them self conscious about it. That's the key. Most people don't want to sit down and talk about their feelings. They're afraid of that. It makes them feel very awkward. But if you give them some task to do, some project to jump into and some food to eat and even better, some wine to drink, you got a connection thing going. And it's so great to see it happen because it's what people need. And you just see them brighten up like a Christmas tree. I mean, it's just. It's a wonderful thing. And it can be. You can start it truly anywhere.

A (21:43)

Well, and there's so many ways to reach out to people if you're willing to take the risk. I mean, you certainly have your phone and you can text and there's other electronic ways to just reach out and touch someone.

B (21:56)

Zoom. I mean, Zoom has been a godsend. And you with your podcast, I mean, you are doing a tremendous service. You have a big following. That's a huge service. It's. People don't realize you have regular listeners, and that's a big deal. And they don't understand by listening to you, by tuning in regularly, they literally are extending their life. I mean, that is a proven fact. Reducing social isolation extends life. And what you're doing with your podcast is a wonderful way of reducing social isolation. So, yes, it is ironic that we have unintentionally conspired to create circumstances where one of the things we need absolutely most is really hard to get, but it is not impossible to get. And that's why I'm saying use your imagination, but reach out, you know, another. Another, you know, reach out to someone you're on the. On the outs with. Forgiveness is a wonderful tool for connecting and. And, you know, forgiveness is a gift you give to yourself.

A (23:01)

Well, anyone who knows that feeling, and I assume it's everyone who has had that feeling, that deep sense of loneliness, knows how horrible it is. And I think this is such an important conversation to have. Edward Hallowell's been my guest. The name of his book is Connect, which he wrote several years ago. And I promised him I would mention his new book, which is about ADHD, called ADHD 2.0. And you can find a link to those books in the show notes. Thanks for coming on, Ned, and talking about this. It was good to hear and it was a lot of really good information. Thank you.

B (23:37)

Thank you, Mike. I really appreciate your having me on. You're a terrific host.