Effective Strategies to Be More Persuasive & Genetics, Evolution and Why We Get Sick

Summary

Something You Should Know: Effective Strategies to Be More Persuasive & Genetics, Evolution, and Why We Get Sick

Release Date: June 9, 2025
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guest Experts: Dr. Abby Morono & Nicole Carless

---

Mastering the Art of Persuasion with Dr. Abby Morono

In this segment, host Mike Carruthers delves deep into the psychology of persuasion with Dr. Abby Morono, a renowned scientist and practitioner in human behavior. Dr. Morono, recognized by the U.S. Department of State as a top behavior analysis expert, shares invaluable insights from her expertise and her book, The Upper Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social Engineering.

Understanding Human Decision-Making

Dr. Morono emphasizes that effective persuasion hinges on comprehending how people think. She states, "You need to understand how people think in order to get them to think in the way you want them to" (02:05). This foundational understanding allows one to align their intentions with the audience's thought processes, making persuasion more natural and effective.

The Role of Cognitive Biases

Highlighting the impact of cognitive biases, Dr. Morono explains concepts like the halo effect, where an individual's attractiveness can lead others to ascribe unrelated positive traits to them. She elaborates, "With the halo effect, we tend to rate people who are more attractive as more intelligent or more trustworthy without actually having the same evidence that they are" (09:58). Recognizing these biases is crucial for anyone looking to enhance their persuasive abilities.

Appearance and Perception

Addressing the often-debated topic of appearance in persuasion, Dr. Morono asserts, "If you want to be perceived as more competent, the way you dress, the way you carry yourself, absolutely does matter" (10:15). She discusses the importance of dressing appropriately for the context to influence others' perceptions positively, thereby opening doors to more effective interactions.

Building Quick Rapport

One of the standout strategies discussed is the ability to establish quick rapport. Dr. Morono shares practical tactics such as maintaining a genuine smile and orienting one's body towards the person they are interacting with. She notes, "A genuine smile... can increase a little oxytocin" (23:49), underscoring the biochemical underpinnings of human connection and trust.

Practical Application

Dr. Morono provides actionable examples, such as tailoring communication to match an individual's risk aversion or leveraging loss aversion to encourage information sharing. These strategies are grounded in her five foundational principles of human decision-making, which include the brain's role, the drive to survive, the need to connect, the mind-body feedback loop, and individual self-identity.

---

The Power of Altruism and Volunteering with Nicole Carless

In the following segment, Mike Carruthers welcomes Nicole Carless, a health and science journalist and author of Your Brain on the Power of Connection and Community During Times of Crisis. Carless explores the multifaceted benefits of altruism and regular volunteering.

Health Benefits of Altruism

Nicole Carless presents compelling research demonstrating that altruistic behaviors, such as volunteering, offer significant health benefits. She states, "Participating in regular volunteering can help improve cognitive function and slow cognitive decline" (33:03). Moreover, volunteering is linked to enhanced immunity, reduced stress, anxiety, and loneliness, and even increased longevity.

Altruism Defined

Carless defines altruism as actions aimed at improving others' well-being without expecting anything in return. "Altruism can reduce stress, anxiety, and loneliness," she explains (33:03), highlighting its role in fostering both psychological and social well-being.

The Mechanism Behind Altruism's Benefits

Delving into the science, Carless describes how altruistic acts activate the brain's ventral striatum, responsible for the release of dopamine, the "happy hormone." Unlike other activities that offer short-lived pleasure, altruism provides a more sustained sense of well-being, often referred to as the "helper's high." She elaborates, "Altruism can create a more durable and sustainable lasting sort of feel good" (41:08).

Building Resilience Through Altruism

Beyond immediate feel-good effects, Carless discusses how altruism builds long-term resilience. Engaging in acts of kindness equips individuals with the mental and emotional strength to better handle crises. "Altruism can be a catalyst to building resilience," she asserts (42:22).

Practical Tips for Getting Started

For listeners eager to incorporate altruism into their lives, Carless offers practical advice:

• Identify Your Interests: Choose volunteering activities that resonate with your passions and interests.
• Start Small: Even small acts of kindness, such as buying a stranger's coffee, can have significant benefits.
• Consistency is Key: Regular volunteering fosters deeper connections and more profound personal benefits.
• Volunteer with Others: Participating alongside friends or family can enhance the experience and make it more fulfilling.

---

Perceptions of Physical Attractiveness: "Dad Bods" vs. "Mom Bods"

In the concluding segment, Mike Carruthers addresses societal perceptions of physical attractiveness, particularly focusing on how men and women view changes in body shape as they age.

The "Dad Bod" Phenomenon

Jennifer Walken, a psychologist at the Joan H. Tisch Center for Women's Health, explains the appeal of the "dad bod" to women. "The dad bod becomes a symbol of attractiveness to women, suggesting that he could be a good husband and father" (52:39). This body type conveys a sense of reliability and prioritization of family over personal vanity.

The "Mom Bod" Dilemma

Conversely, changes in women's bodies are often perceived less forgivingly by men. Walken notes, "Women judge themselves more harshly than most men ever will. What women might see as overweight or heavy, men often see as normal or healthy and likely attractive" (53:50). Despite societal shifts towards body positivity, ingrained biases persist, affecting how men perceive their female counterparts as they age.

Evolutionary Perspectives

Walken ties these perceptions back to evolutionary psychology, suggesting that in ancestral environments, physical attractiveness was a key indicator of health and suitability as a partner. "Back in our cavemen days, it was the best predictor of women's health and how good a partner she would be" (53:50).

Implications for Modern Relationships

Understanding these biases is crucial for navigating modern relationships. While individuals may strive for personal growth and self-acceptance, societal perceptions can influence interpersonal dynamics and self-esteem.

---

Conclusion

In this episode of Something You Should Know, Mike Carruthers effectively unpacks complex topics ranging from the psychology of persuasion and the health benefits of altruism to societal perceptions of physical attractiveness. Through expert insights from Dr. Abby Morono and Nicole Carless, listeners gain actionable strategies to enhance their persuasive abilities, enrich their lives through altruistic behaviors, and navigate the nuanced landscape of modern attractiveness standards.

---

For more insights and episodes, visit OmniCast Media and subscribe to "Something You Should Know" on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

Since Mint Mobile became a sponsor here, I'm kind of tuned in to when people talk about their cell service and they complain about how much their wireless bill is and it happens all the time. Perhaps maybe you've thought your plans a little expensive. Well, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you from high jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages with their premium wireless for just $15 a month. Why would you pay more if you don't have to? And look, all Mint Mobile plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan. Bring your phone number along with your contacts. So I think I've argued away any objection you might have. So now just just ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. I have Mint Mobile. It works spectacularly well and I can spend the summer thinking about how much money I'm not giving to the big wireless company I used to this year skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless [e-mail] something that's mintmobile.com something upfront payments of $45 for a 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Today on something you should know. An easy way to make pain less painful then how you can become a more persuas.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Persuasive. You need to understand how people think in order to get them to think in the way you want them to. Because that's really what persuasion is. I have something I want you to do or something I want you to think. So I need to try and align your thinking to that.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also an interesting difference between men and women when it comes to physical attractiveness and how being kind to others can be good for your health. And it doesn't take much.

[Nicole Carless]

It doesn't have to be these really big and grand gestures. Scientists have found that even small acts of kindness can benefit your health. Specifically the kind of sweet spot is three acts of kindness two days a week.

[Mike Carruthers]

All this today on something you should know. I know a lot of business people listen to this podcast because I hear from them on LinkedIn or in emails and if you're one of those people, there always comes that day when you have to hire someone, which I've had to do as well. And it's tough. Usually you need someone right away you want to hire the right person. But how do you determine that? Which is why I've come to discover that when it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Indeed has something called Sponsored Jobs. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps right to the top of the page for your relevant candidates who so you can reach the people you want faster and it makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. And that's what you want. More applications from relevant qualified candidates. Indeed works in fact, in the minute I've been Talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed according to Indeed Data Worldwide. Look, there's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com something just go to Indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast, indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Something you should know fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today.

[Narrator]

Something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

[Mike Carruthers]

If you don't like needles when you go to the doctor, I have something for you to remember or tell your kids to remember the next time that happens. Hi and welcome to something you should know. Millions of people hate getting shots when they go to the doctor, but did you know this? If you hold your breath, the pain won't be as bad. Spanish scientists found that a sharp intake of breath triggers your brain to dampen the nervous system, leaving you less sensitive to pain. What they did was they squished the fingernails of volunteers for five seconds. While this was going on, some of the volunteers took slow breaths and other volunteers held their breath. And those who held their breath reported the pain as much less severe by about half. This technique only works when you know the pain is coming and you start to hold your breath beforehand, which is why it's perfect for when you get a shot at the doctor. And that is something you should know. Being persuasive and influential, that's a skill I suspect almost everyone wishes they were better at. So what are the building blocks to being persuasive? What do you have to do to get people to allow you to persuade them to get them to do what you want or think? Think what you want them to think. That is what Dr. Abby Morono is here to discuss. Abby is a scientist and practitioner in the field of human behavior. And she is recognized by the US Department of State as being in the top 1% of behavior analysis experts. And she is author of a book called the Upper Mastering Persuasion and Getting what yout Want with the Science of Social Engineering. Hey, Abby, welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Thank you for having me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So as I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking, you know, I know people who I consider pretty persuasive. And I think in general, we admire people who are persuasive. I'm not sure why that is, but there's something admirable or charming or there's something about a persuasive person. What is that?

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Well, I think charm is the way that we tend to verbalize it, but it's hard to know why we are drawn to those kinds of people. But it's the underpinning psychology. They understand how to make us feel comfortable. They understand how to make us feel seen and validated. And we're drawn to people that have that ability to create that rapport and positive feeling that feels authentic. It's that I don't know why I want to be around this person, but I do.

[Mike Carruthers]

And is it your sense that that is something people do naturally or is it an art they have learned?

[Dr. Abby Morono]

I think it's a bit of both. I think some people are naturally really talented at recognizing what other people need and how to make them feel validated and just do it naturally. But even with a natural ability, if you have an understanding of human psychology, you can be a lot more effective. And some people who are not naturally very charismatic, they can end up being the most charismatic because now they can start to understand, okay, well, how do people think? What is it that people need? What is it that makes people feel comfortable? And they can start actively doing those things.

[Mike Carruthers]

And before we get into the psychology of it all, it's my sense, and I want to get your comment on this. It's my sense that we are more persuaded by some people than others because of their looks, their attractiveness, what they're wearing, how tall they are, things like that. Right?

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Yes. And you pick up on a really important point. When I talk about influence, we all are biased because the brain is so powerful, but it's so energy hungry. It weighs 2% of our body mass, but it takes up 20% of our energy. So in order to get us through our body, our daily interactions and not be overwhelmed all the time, it takes mental shortcuts. It needs to simplify information. And that's where Biases come in, we take information in and we try and understand it as easily and quickly as possible. And that leads to missteps in thinking. For example, a very well known bias is the halo effect. We see someone who is attractive and we tend to assume that because we have they are rated as having a positive characteristic in one area, like attractiveness, they have positivity in other areas that aren't necessarily related. So we know with the halo effect, we tend to rate people who are more attractive as more intelligent or more trustworthy without actually having the same evidence that they are. And there are hundreds of, of biases that we all fall for. And there are some people that think, oh, well, I don't have a bias. And that in itself is a bias. And the bias that we don't think we have a bias is called our blind spot bias.

[Mike Carruthers]

I like that we have a bias that we don't have any bias. That's the best. And so is there a message there that if you want to be persuasive, you need to look the part and appeal to those biases as best you can?

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Yes, and this is one that I always get a little bit of backlash on because people say, you know, if we are dressing more formally, we are perceived as more intelligent and more professional. And then you do get that backlash of, well, you know, this is a modern times, we should be able to wear what we want. Fine, no problem, you can wear what you want. But it doesn't mean the perception has to change. There are facts about how we perceive other people that just are the way that they are and it might not be what you want it to be. And you might feel, well, that's an offensive characteristic or that's an offensive judgment, but it doesn't mean that the judgment isn't there and you can argue against it or you can use it to your advantage. So if you want to be perceived as more competent, the way you dress, the way you carry yourself, absolutely does matter.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is it a case of, of the way you dress and how you present yourself matters based on who you're talking to or are there objective ways that you know, if you wear a tie and a coat, you're going to be perceived better than if you wear a T shirt and shorts, or does it really depend on who you're talking to?

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Well, it depends on the context. So if we're talking about a professional context, then absolutely it is. On average, you're perceived as more competent and more confident. And even though there is a societal move towards being more Casual, that perception of confidence and competence has remained the same, that people who dress more formally and not just confident and competent, but also more intelligent people who dress more professionally are perceived as more intelligent. And the important fact that is perceived, it doesn't necessarily mean they are. But perception really does matter because, for example, perception of trustworthiness, I always say it's like a double sided coin where you have to be trustworthy and you have to be confident, but you have to be perceived as confident too because say, the perception is what opens the door. If someone's going to trust you, they need to perceive you as trustworthy first. And then once you're in the room, that's where actual trustworthiness is important to keep you in that room. Otherwise you'll just get kicked out. But you have to have both parts. The door has to be open and you have to be able to stay in. So just being trustworthy or just being competent, if you don't know how to present yourself with the right perception, then you're doing yourself a disservice.

[Mike Carruthers]

I am so glad to hear you say that. What you said about this whole notion of, you know, well, things are more casual now and you don't have to, that doesn't change the way people perceive you. Just, just because you think you should be more casual doesn't change anything. And I've always, I've always liked when people dressed up. I like when people put on a tie and a coat. But sometimes when I do it I feel odd because nobody else is doing it. So then I dress down and then I. But, but I don't like that.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Yes. And we can kind of feel like we're sticking out like a sore thumb. But is that necessarily a bad thing? Because if everybody else is dressing down and you're continuing to stay formal, then you're kind of giving yourself the upper hand in perception wise. Anyway.

[Mike Carruthers]

Beyond the looks and how people perceive you, there is an art and I suspect a science to being persuasive. And can you guide me into that?

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Yes. Well, when you read a lot of the influence books on persuasion and influence, what I have found is they are very surface level and that they're great. But what they teach you is do X and you'll get Y. So if you're learning to be persuasive, you get okay, do X technique and then you'll be more persuasive. But the problem with that is it doesn't really teach you why. It doesn't let you understand why you're being More persuasive. So how can you take that approach and tailor it to different situations? So the way I thought the best way to present how to be persuasive is people need to understand how people think. Because to be persuasive, you need to understand how people think in order to get them to think in the way you want them to. Because that's really what persuasion is. I have a goal or I have something I want you to do or something you want you to want you to think. So I need to try and align your thinking to that or your behavior to that. If I don't understand the roots of how people make decisions in the first place, that pure psychology, how am I going to reach that goal effectively? And how am I going to know what barriers there are in there? So it's understanding human decision making. And like I said, I created a framework that's the underpinnings of how human beings make decisions. Which sounds really complicated, but I thought of it as like, if you think of a plant, you can have thousands of different types of plants and they're so different. You have a cheese plant versus a cactus versus a lily. Completely different. But if you really go to the root of it, they all need the same basic stuff, right? Soil, water, sunlight. And people are much the same because we are 99.9% genetically identical. So within that, there has to be commonalities, if understood, can be exploited. And that's really where the art of persuasion comes in. It's understanding those commonalities in how all human beings make decisions. So then you can take that and. And then create tactics from it.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I certainly want to find out what those commonalities are. I'm speaking with Abby Morono. She's author of the book the Upper Mastering Persuasion and Getting what yout Want with the Science of Social Engineering.

[Advertiser]

Introducing the new Dell AI PC. Powered by the Intel Core Ultra processor, it helps do your busy work for you so you can fast forward. Editing images, designing presentations, generating code, debugging.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Code, summarizing meeting notes, finding files, managing.

[Advertiser]

Your schedule, and managing and responding to Jim's long emails. Leaving all the time in the world for the things you actually want to do. No offense, Jim. Get a new Dell AI PC at Dell.com AI PC how those ahead, Stay ahead.

[Mike Carruthers]

I am hardly what you would call a trendy clothes shopper. I know what I like. I buy things that last and that I will wear for a long time. And so now I shop almost [e-mail] and I've come to discover that a lot of people, men and women, shop there too because they have quality, well made clothes for summer that you are going to love, like organic cotton silk polos. I've got a couple of those European linen beach shorts, comfortable pants that work for everything from backyard parties to nice summer dinners out. Here's the best part about quints. Everything with quints is half the cost of similar brands. And how they do that is they work directly with top artisans. They cut out the middlemen. So you get luxury clothes without the big markups. And Quint's only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices with premium fabrics and finishes. Quince is all about really great clothes at a very reasonable price. If you saw my closet, what you would see are the quince clothes hanging right in the center. And my other clothes, they keep getting pushed to the sides and the same thing will happen to your closet. Oh, and you're going to love their website. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.comsysk to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comsysk so Abby, you said there are commonalities in the way people make decisions. What are they?

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Yes. So the first one is we are our brains. And that simply means that all thought and behavior originates in the brain. It doesn't just drive us, it defines us. So we have to have a basic understanding of the brain. And again, that's where the cognitive biases and things come in. And then the second principle is the drive to survive. And this is the most deeply ingrained human drive there is. We seek safety and avoid threats. Meaning if you appear as a threat to a person, it doesn't matter what approach you take because you have now encroached on their safety. So their brain is saying to them, you are the danger and they want to escape the danger. The third principle is that we are designed to connect and cooperate. We are a social species. There is absolutely no denying through our evolutionary history, our survival has depended on our social relationships, meaning we are actually wired for survival. And maintaining social relationships is crucial to that. Which is why when we have positive social interactions, we get a boost of oxytocin. So if we take this understanding, in order to build trust, we need to understand, okay, well, how can I create bonding? How can I utilize this social aspect of human beings? And then principle number four is the mind body feedback loop. We are interconnected with our thoughts, feelings and physical states. So our inner states, the emotions, feelings, thoughts are, are affected by the physical environment, like the temperature outside, if there's noise, the people around us, and then vice versa. So they affect each other. If I control one, for example, if I control the lighting, I can then control how focused someone is. Or if I change my emotion, I can change my perception of my interactions. So changing inner can change outer and vice versa. And then the final principle to understand is that we all have a unique self identity and that's where that.01% comes in. So I, like I said, we're 99.9% genetically identical, but we are very unique. And understanding everyone's individual self identity and the way they perceive themselves and define themselves, we can understand what it is that matters to that person and how to relate to them and how to validate them. And if we take these five principles individually, they're all very effective to understand for influence. But when we're creating tactics, if we understand them as a whole and how to appeal to all of them, or how to not accidentally contradict some of them, we can be a lot more effective in our influence approach.

[Mike Carruthers]

So can you take those things in as simple way as you can and put them into practice? Give me an example of those things at work.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

So for example, one technique I call speak their language. If you understand someone, you can speak their language in a way that makes them feel understood, valued and relatable. And that doesn't mean copying their accent or slang, it means matching their communication style. What are their priorities, what are their world views? And when people feel receptive, or when people feel understood, even they're more receptive to your message. So let's say for example, you're pitching an idea to someone who is very risk averse. Instead of calling your plan disruptive and bold, you describe it as tested, strategic and designed to minimize long term risk. Because you've understood what matters to that person, you've understood what triggers their survival drive. So let's take that principle of survival. If someone is risk averse, if they feel that there might be a risk to it, they're going to activate that survival drive. So knowing that and then understanding their self identity, we can adapt our message so we change the way we communicate. We're not imitating, we're not pretending to be them, we're kind of meeting them where they are. So that is a really simple example of how we can change the way we communicate when we understand Someone. And it doesn't mean that we're using manipulation or anything to coerce them. It simply means we're just being adaptable and we're being influential.

[Mike Carruthers]

So if you could take another one of your five principles there and put it in action just like you just did with that one.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Yep. So loss aversion is a cognitive bias where we think things are worth more if they belong to us, so we are more afraid of losing them. So if you're trying to get someone to provide you information, you can utilize this natural tendency to have loss aversion as framing the consequence of withholding information as something they might regret later. So I teach this to federal agents that are trying to get cooperation. And one way they utilize this is when they're talking about giving your side of the story. So if you're speaking to a suspect, we can utilize loss aversion of if you're not able to provide me this information. You know, I've seen so many cases where people withheld information that they thought wasn't important and it came back to haunt them. So in that the way you're framing it, you're showing them that if you don't provide me this, you're losing something rather than saying, you know, please give me this information, it will help us. We're also utilizing that natural tendency to be loss averse by saying the consequences of not providing me this is you're going to lose the ability to have something or you're going to lose the control over this case.

[Mike Carruthers]

Do you think though that once you understand the five things that you outlined that you're fairly able to then adapt them to your situation? Like, okay, now I get that, so now let's do it this way. Or is this something that really has to be studied because a lot of persuasion is done on your feet. I mean, you don't have time to prepare your presentation. You gotta do it right now.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

And that's a fantastic question. So this is where the ability to establish quick rapport comes in. In we know that the best way to get information and to get someone to do what we want them to do is FaceTime, as in more time with them. If you have the ability to understand how to present yourself, you're more likely to get quick rapport. So if I know what creates oxytocin, so let's go to that connect and cooperate principle. If I know what creates oxytocin and makes someone feel bonded to me, I, I'm going to be able to understand them quicker because they're going to give me more information, they're going to think I'm more likable, they're going to be more trusting towards me. So for example, let's take a quick tactic. When we have a genuine smile, it creates oxytocin in the brain. So if we're interacting and I greet you and I don't greet you with a smile, I'm doing myself a disservice. If I greet you with a smile, I can increase a little oxytocin and then other factors like my body orientation matters. So if I'm talking to you and my body is orientated away, but I'm facing you, research has shown that it creates a reduced perception of empathy. Whereas if I'm orientating towards you and maybe I'm also slightly mimicking your behavior, we know that it creates more oxytocin, we know that it creates more trust and more feelings of closeness. So all of these things, when you understand how people think and what makes people feel comfortable, you can utilize those tactics to create faster rapport. So you do get to know that person. Because if I want to influence you to buy something, I need to understand what your motives are. I need to understand what matters to you. And the best way to do that is to make you feel comfortable just telling me information, just telling me a little about yourself. And if I utilize those tactics that create bonding, you're more comfortable telling me more information. Maybe I ask about a recent holiday you went on because you have a picture of a holiday. I ask about your family and you open up a little more small conversation about hobbies or profession or wherever I direct attack, wherever I direct the conversation, I can find out things that matter to you and then I can utilize those inside my influence approach.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is there also just something to the fact that you're showing interest and acting or maybe you are interested in what they have to say about their hobbies or whatever. That has an effect as well.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Yep, absolutely. And again, that goes into the connect and cooperate principle of we are naturally social creatures and we like to be liked. And it feels good when people are reinforcing our self concept. So say if I see myself as someone who is a logical thinker, if you say, wow, you're, you know, you have a lot of attention to detail. Oh, you've just reinforced my self image. That feels really good and it creates more liking towards you. And if you're showing me interest in my life, in my career, then it creates more liking towards you and more bonding. So just being able to create a conversation and showing interest in someone is in itself a tactic of creating cooperation.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, as I said, I think persuasion is one of those things that people wish they were better at and knew more about. And now we do know more about it. I've been speaking with Dr. Abby Morono. She is a scientist and practitioner in the field of human behavior and she is author of the book the Upper Mastering Persuasion and Getting what yout Want with the Science of Social Engineering. There's a link to her book in the show notes. And Abby, thank you.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

Amazing. Thank you so much.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, some summer days you just don't want to cook, going out or even getting takeout. I mean, that's gotten so expensive. So our solution is Factor Factor delivers fresh chef crafted meals. They're ready in just two minutes and then you're eating a restaurant quality meal that is so good and cheaper than going out or getting takeout. With 45 weekly menu options, you can pick gourmet meals you will love here. This is right off their website. On their menu, salmon piccata with cauliflower mash and garlic broccoli or chimichurri filet mignon and shrimp or smoky Gouda chicken with red potatoes and green beans. Now being a Factor veteran, let me explain that these are not frozen meals. These are fresh restaurant quality meals delivered to your door. Now you don't have to, but we always put them on dinner plates because they're too good to eat out of the container. They come in two minutes in the microwave and you're having a real delicious dietitian approved gourmet meal. That is so not fast food. Now here I'm gonna make this very easy to try. Get [e-mail] something50off and use code something50OFF to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code [e-mail] something 50 off for 50% off plus free shipping factormeals.com something50OFF and that promo code is in the show notes.

[Advertiser]

You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your Progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies so you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[Mike Carruthers]

Do you make it a point to Help other people to volunteer or help with caregiving, or as it's commonly said, do you give back or pay it forward or whatever you want to call it. You've probably heard that helping or volunteering is good for you, that there are health benefits to it and there are psychological and social benefits as well. And the way that all works and how you can take advantage of it is all very interesting. Here to discuss it is Nicole Carless. She's a health and science journalist whose work has been published in Salon and the New York Times and Marie Claire and other places. And she has a book out called you'd Brain on the power of connection and community during times of crisis. Hi, Nicole, welcome.

[Nicole Carless]

Hi, Mike. Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So I think most of us have heard from the time we were very young that it's good to help other people. People in need need our help and we should help them. That altruism is the right thing to do because helping other people helps other people. But it's also good for the person doing the helping. And so my first question is, how is it good for the person doing the helping?

[Nicole Carless]

So I found there are numerous health benefits to altruism, like participating in regular volunteering. Specifically, it can help improve cognitive function and slow cognitive decline. Research also suggests it can help build immunity to protect against disease acceleration. Some research shows that people who volunteer regularly, live longer, have fewer hospital visits, and are overall in better health on a day to day basis. Altruism can reduce stress, anxiety and loneliness.

[Mike Carruthers]

And you define altruism as what altruism.

[Nicole Carless]

Is when we act to improve someone else's well being. I use the word altruism interchangeably with kindness, caring and generosity. It really is a stylistic choice to do that because at the end of the day, it just boils down to an action that benefits another person's welfare without the expectation of receiving something in return.

[Mike Carruthers]

The benefits to doing this, I think everybody has felt them. I mean, anytime you've done something nice for somebody, even like, you know, helping somebody who's lost, give them directions to get to wherever they're going, there's something about it that just feels right, like, wow, that, you know, I was. I was really glad to help that person. And that feeling is, I think, kind of at the core of this whole topic. Right. I mean, that desire and fulfillment of helping is a real human thing.

[Nicole Carless]

Absolutely. I think that's for a few reasons. One, because it's a novel experience and that really factors into these health benefits. That I discovered by interviewing neuroscientists and psychologists. It's not just, you know, meeting up with friends. And sure, that feels good too, but it really, it gives you a sense of purpose and it can really, you know, require a certain level of vulnerability in this interaction when you're helping someone and also when you're asking for help.

[Mike Carruthers]

The people who do this and who do this well and who do this just as part of their life, do they have other things in common? Is there a certain type of person drawn to altruism?

[Nicole Carless]

That's a really good question. I think that what can draw a person to altruism is that they've been on the other end of an altruistic exchange. So maybe in a time of their life where they've really found themselves to be in crisis and need help, people, strangers or people in their community really stepped up to help them. And we remember that. We remember when people are kind to us, when people have gone above and beyond to help us. And research shows that when you're on the receiving end of that act that you really, you want to pass that on, you want to carry that on. And it can be a life changing interaction where then you do want to engage in more altruism in your life.

[Mike Carruthers]

And generally when I think, when people think about altruism, they think about helping at the shelter or I mean, I don't know what they think. What do people think when you say what kind of altruistic things do you do? What is it people tend to do?

[Nicole Carless]

Part of what I want people to take away from the research that I found is that it doesn't have to be these really big and grand gestures. Scientists have found that even small acts of kindness can benefit your health. Specifically, the kind of sweet spot is three acts of kindness two days a week. And the reason behind that is that, so it doesn't really become another item you have to check off your to do list every day, that it's something that you kind of look forward to. And once again, it's this novel experience that you're experiencing. But an act of kindness, you know, can just be buying a stranger's coffee. It can also just be being kinder to people who are in your life doing, you know, we think like we have to do it to a stranger, someone we don't know. It could just be, you know, helping a family member with grocery shopping or just showing up to their house with a tea or coffee or a treat. It doesn't have to be regular volunteering. However, the science does show that there are major health benefits to regularly volunteering, especially later in life.

[Mike Carruthers]

And when people, you talk to, people who do it, are they doing it for the health benefits? I would think not. But I mean, that's more of a side benefit as much as it's not the reason people do it.

[Nicole Carless]

You know, what you're, I think kind of alluding to here is intention. And that's actually a really important part of, in experiencing the health benefits that I've found of altruism. And so the intention, you know, really has to be to help the, you know, to be of service, to help the people that you want to help. At the same time, there's nothing wrong with going into an active altruism and knowing there are health benefits to this. And I'm going to feel really great after this. And maybe there is a part of me that is doing this because I know that people who volunteer regularly have fewer hospital visits or have maybe less disease. So I know, I know that there's nothing wrong with going into an act of altruism knowing that you'll benefit from it as well. But I do think that people really want to be of service to others. It's really, you know, neuroscientists tell me it's not a nice to have. It's not something that's fluffy for good brain health. It's actually a must have for good brain health.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what is the mechanism, what is it that makes it so? If I go buy somebody a cup of coffee or I help an old lady across the street, how does that help my health? What's the connection?

[Nicole Carless]

So I think what's important to understand that is to first take a step back and look at how chronic stress affects the brain. So chronic stress kills brain cells, and specifically it affects the brain's frontal networks, which are responsible for our higher order thinking, critical thinking, problem solving, and creativity. You know, what, what makes us special as humans? And so when chronic stress shuts this down, we are forced into a fight or flight mode and the sympathetic nervous system is activated. So neuroscientists believe that what is called an open posture, something that can, you know, make you feel more open, this can bring the brain, the front, front part of the brain, back online. And curiosity is one way to do that. And curiosity can do that through an act of kindness. So even though an act of kindness, when you're in that fight or flight mode can feel hard to access, and it can actually bring the brain, the frontal cortex, back online and activate that parasympathetic nervous system, which is when we feel safe and cared for and more relaxed.

[Mike Carruthers]

But I'm still not clear, I'm still not understanding the magic that happens here of you're healthier, you're less likely to go to the hospital because you help somebody.

[Nicole Carless]

There's also another part of the brain that neuroscientists have seen that's activated during an act of kindness, during an act of altruism. And that's the ventral striatum. And we know that that's responsible for feeling the happy hormone, which is dopamine. But scientists have found that it's not the same thing that happens in the brain when you go and eat really good food or do something that's more of a self focused activity, that that part of the brain can actually be lit up for a longer time. So the researchers suspect that actually altruism can create a more durable and more sustainable lasting sort of feel good. And this, you know, we kind of in society refer to this as the helper's high.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, well, I think everyone has probably heard of the helper's high and probably felt that helper's high of doing something nice for someone. And it just, you know, it feels like a high. It feels good, you really helped. And it lasts a while. It doesn't last a long while it seems, but it does last for a while. And then it goes away, I guess, until the next time you do something.

[Nicole Carless]

And something that I think is important to talk about too is that feel good feeling that we're talking about is really important. But that's not necessarily what I think we are chasing when we engage in acts of service. I think what we're actually looking is for. For is a way to build resilience mentally, emotionally and physically. Because at the end of the day we're always going to be facing a crisis. We're not going, you know, there's nothing we can do to make us happy permanently long term. And it's not a sustainable feeling. But I think that what I ultimately found in my research is that altruism can be a catalyst to building resilience. So I mean, even though we just talked about like the helper's high and even though that fades, what we do know is that there are health benefits to helping others and it can help us build resilience individually and as a society.

[Mike Carruthers]

There are people who will say that the reason they don't volunteer, they don't want to go down to the animal shelter or the homeless shelter and help because it makes Them sad. It's hard to watch. And other people I've heard say, well, you know, I mean, so what if you go down and you serve a meal to the homeless? It doesn't address the problem. Yeah, it's nice to give them a meal, but they'll need another meal after you've gone home and you really haven't helped the problem. To which you would say, well, I.

[Nicole Carless]

Would say that then maybe that's not the right volunteer opportunity for the. For those people. The whole point is to do something that makes you feel good, that does give you that sense of purpose, that will, you know, give you the benefits that I talk about. For some people, maybe that's just not the right opportunity. Throughout my research, I found that basically volunteering depends on what season of life you're in. So you can either be in a season of giving, receiving, or witnessing. And maybe for those people, they're not in a place in their life where they can give.

[Mike Carruthers]

What about giving money? Does that count? Does that have the same benefits as volunteering, or is that something entirely different?

[Nicole Carless]

That's a good question. So research suggests that giving money doesn't have the same effects, the same health effects. But I always say that that doesn't mean if that's the only thing you can give in the moment and that's what you want to do, then why not? And specifically, I'm thinking about a situation where people are on Instagram and a big wildfire happened, and someone sharing a GoFundMe for their friend or family, and, you know, in that moment, that's something that you can do to help, and you will feel better. You'll feel less, you know, like the world is in crisis and more like you were able to do something and to help people in this situation.

[Mike Carruthers]

I know people, and I actually remember being in this situation once when I was younger of wanting to volunteer and not really knowing, like, where to go or who to call or where to show up. Like, I was willing, but I didn't know what to do.

[Nicole Carless]

You know, it's actually really difficult to volunteer to volunteer your free time regularly. People work, people are parents, people have family members to take care of. People, you know, are burned out and want to go home and relax. They don't necessarily want to go and volunteer again. So what I'd like to see is I call for what I describe as a culture of caring, where as a society, we prioritize the act of caring for others, where we see caring for others as a strength and not a weakness. And what that can look like is in the workforce, people actually giving workers time to go and volunteer if they want to. Like I was saying before about caregivers, caregiving and isolation, more providing more societal support for caregivers. So if they do want to volunteer as well in their communities, they have the time and space to do that.

[Mike Carruthers]

So where do you begin? Like, if you haven't done this before, if you haven't really thought much about this, like, what's the prescription here to get your toe in the water?

[Nicole Carless]

Well, it depends, you know, where you're at in your life. If you really feel like you are in a season of giving and you have the space to regularly volunteer, I think that the first place to start is just thinking about what your interests are and what you're really passionate about and then thinking, you know, what works for you logistically. You know, I. If you know, you're really into marine mammals and you want to help the elephant seals, but you live an hour and a half from the rescue center, are you realistically going to be able to, you know, travel an hour and a half, twice a week or whatever it is? So I think just being really realistic with yourself as well. And I think also, you know, once you start just remembering, like, it doesn't have to be perfect, it can take some time, honestly, to maybe enjoy it. And part of, you know, the health benefits, it's not just from giving to others, but it's about connecting with people in your community too. So really connecting with the other volunteers. So I would encourage people to be social as well and to be open to making new connections with, you know, people who are also volunteering as well.

[Mike Carruthers]

And I would imagine it's easier if you do it with someone. You know, it can be a little intimidating to go by yourself someplace you've never been to volunteer and not really know the lay of the land. But doing it with somebody else probably makes it easier.

[Nicole Carless]

Yeah, I always say that if you want to catch up with a friend, you know, it's really easy to go grab a coffee and go on a walk together. But if you really want, like some peak, you know, optimal health benefits and something that would be like, really memorable for the both of you, it would be going to go volunteer together. And I've personally, I have done this with friends and like, it's, it's such a fun thing to do with a friend or family member.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is there any research, anything that you looked into about, like, when you volunteer, do people tend to. And is it a good idea to volunteer at the same place frequently or hop around and, you know, this week we're gonna do this, and now we're gonna go over here and do that, and, you know, maybe we'll go back to that other one. But, you know, it's more of a variety rather than just staying with one organization or one plan of attack and doing that.

[Nicole Carless]

I personally think that you'll experience the benefits more if you stick to something regularly because you will be connecting with other volunteers, you will be creating friendships, and you will be really. You'll be able to see your impact more over a longer period of time than just one day.

[Mike Carruthers]

And, you know, people have a tendency to help maybe more at Christmas or, you know, that there's seasons for this where, you know, there's plenty of. There's plenty of volunteers at the shelter on Thanksgiving, and, you know, it's in June that they need help.

[Nicole Carless]

Right. I do think that people frequently during Christmas, oh, I want to do something to give back. And then oftentimes what people find is a lot of, you know, these. These volunteer opportunities, they're booked.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

These.

[Nicole Carless]

These organizations don't need more volunteers. So that's, you know, another reason why, you know, to maybe try to do this if. If you can, if you're in a season of giving, to do this, like you said, in June and spring. So then, you know, when Christmas time does come along, you. You know how to volunteer with this organization, and you're connected to them already.

[Mike Carruthers]

And what about. Because this happened to my son, like, you know, he wanted to volunteer and he went down to this place, and what they had him do wasn't what he thought he was gonna do. You know, they basically had him stacking boxes in the back that, you know, really wasn't connecting with the people in need. I mean, as a job that had to be done, and he was willing to do it, but he didn't get the fulfillment out of it that he thought he would because he was in the back stacking boxes, and it didn't really feel like he was really helping anybody.

[Nicole Carless]

You know, I think what your son experienced can happen actually, pretty frequently. People can maybe be disappointed by their experiences, but I think what the issue is that it's hard to volunteer in our culture and in our society. And I think we need to make it more accessible and easier for people to do regularly and when they want to.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I'm really glad you brought up the point that helping out, that volunteering isn't always easy. You know, you have to find the time in your schedule. Then you have to find a place, an organization, someone that can use you and that offers you something that you can do that you will find fulfilling. And then you have to approach that organization. I mean, there is a lot to it and yet the rewards are pretty spectacular. I've been talking with Nicole Carlis. She's a health and science journalist and author of the book you, Brain on the Power of Connection and Community During Times of Crisis. There's a link to her book in the show Notes, and I appreciate you coming on and talking about this. Thanks, Nicole.

[Nicole Carless]

Good. Thank you, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

As men age and their midsection gets bigger or women are typically forgiving. However, when women get heavier as they age, men are less forgiving. Why? Well, when women see a man with a dad bod, they think he's a family man, he's a nurturer, he's putting his family before himself. But when men see women with a mom bod, they think she's lazy, she still hasn't lost the baby weight. This is according to Jennifer Walken, a psychologist at the Joan H. Tisch center for Women's Health, the dad bod becomes a symbol of attractiveness to women, suggesting that he could be a good husband and father. He has pursuits outside the gym, and he's not going to stand you up for dinner because he has to get in a workout. Meanwhile, to men, physical attractiveness to their significant other is just a bigger deal, she says. After all, back in our cavemen days, it was the best predictor of women's health and how good a partner she would be. But there's a bit more to it than that, says Jennifer Wolkin. Women judge themselves more harshly than most men ever will. For instance, when you ask women about their ideal body size, it tends to be thinner than what men prefer. What women might see as overweight or heavy, men often see as normal or healthy and likely attractive. And that is something you should know. We are at the conclusion of this episode, a good time for you to take a moment and use that share function on your podcast app thing and send this episode to someone you know and suggest they give a listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Advertiser]

You might think you know fairy tales and you might think that they are cute and sweet and boring, but the real Grimm fairy tales were not cute at all. They were very dark and they were often very grim. On Grim Grimmer Grimmest, we tell a grim fairy tale to a bunch of kids, perfect for car rides or screen free entertainment. Grim Grimmer Grimmest activates kids imaginations and instigates fun conversations because fairy tales speak to all of us at a very deep, primal level and they raise interesting topics and questions that are worth chewing over together as a family. Every episode is rated Grim, Grimmer or Grimmest. So you, your kids, your whole family can choose what is the right level of Grim for you. Though, if you're listening with Grandma, she's just gonna go for Grimmest. Trust me on this one. Tune in to Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest and our new season available now.

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

[Narrator]

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep, or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

[Advertiser]

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

[Narrator]

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas and.

[Mike Carruthers]

I don't he's too old.

[Advertiser]

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dune 2 is overrated.

[Dr. Abby Morono]

It is.

[Advertiser]

Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites.

[Narrator]

Must sees, and in case you missed.

[Advertiser]

Ems, we're talking the Home Alone from.

[Narrator]

Grease to the Dark Knight.

[Advertiser]

We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks, we've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look, and we've talked about.

[Narrator]

Horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, a Ganja and Hess.

[Advertiser]

So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

[Narrator]

Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your.

[Advertiser]

Podcasts, and don't forget to hit the follow button.