Eleven Inventions That Changed the World & The Right Way to Make Love and Money Decisions - SYSK Choice

Summary

Something You Should Know: Episode Summary Episode Title: Eleven Inventions That Changed the World & The Right Way to Make Love and Money Decisions
Host: Mike Carruthers | OmniCast Media
Release Date: January 25, 2025

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In this enlightening episode of "Something You Should Know," host Mike Carruthers delves into two transformative topics: the profound impact of eleven pivotal inventions on human perception and society, and a systematic approach to making significant love and money decisions. Featuring expert insights from Susan Denham Wade, author of "A History of Seeing in 11 Inventions," and Myra Strober, a labor economist and professor at Stanford University and author of "Money and An Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Biggest Decisions," this episode promises listeners both historical perspectives and practical decision-making strategies.

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Section 1: Eleven Inventions That Changed the World

Guest: Susan Denham Wade
Timestamp Highlights: [00:33] – [22:20]

Susan Denham Wade opens the discussion by exploring the fascinating origins of everyday food products, shedding light on why some common items bear peculiar names. For instance, Philadelphia Cream Cheese didn’t originate in Philadelphia but was named there to evoke an image of high-quality food products from the esteemed city. Similarly, Gatorade was ingeniously named after the University of Florida's football team, the Florida Gators, despite containing no alligator.

Mirrors: Reflecting Individuality and Society

At [06:07], Susan introduces the invention of mirrors, tracing their origins back to Anatolia around 8,000 years ago. She explains how the advent of mirrors coincided with a societal shift from egalitarianism to a heightened sense of individualism. This technological breakthrough enabled people to see their reflections, fostering self-awareness and personal identity. Susan states,

“...the appearance of mirrors tends to coincide with individuality. So this is an example from a long time ago of how a change in technology, in visual technology and seeing something different, caused a fundamental shift in mindset.” [08:08]

Photography: Capturing Permanence and Self

Moving forward, Susan discusses the revolutionary impact of photography. Initially celebrated for immortalizing landscapes and art, photography quickly found its true calling in portraiture.

“All very well to see the great sights of the world and the great works of art, but what people really wanted was themselves and each other... approximately 90% of photographs taken in the first 50 years of photography were portraits.” [10:53]

She further explains the somber expressions in early photographs, attributing them to the lengthy exposure times required by the daguerreotype process, which made it challenging for subjects to maintain natural smiles.

“It's pretty hard to hold a smile for that length of time. So they were probably advised just to keep it fairly serious.” [12:08]

Telescope: Expanding the Universe's Horizons

At [13:03], the conversation shifts to the telescope and its monumental role in altering humanity's understanding of the cosmos. Although often credited to Galileo, the first public telescopes were developed by Dutch spectacle maker Lipperhei. Galileo's enhancements to the telescope allowed him to make groundbreaking observations, such as discovering Jupiter's moons, which challenged the geocentric model of the universe and ignited scientific controversies.

“Galileo's discovery showed that the Earth wasn't necessarily the center of the universe,” [16:16]

Eyeglasses: Enhancing Lifespans and Igniting the Renaissance

Susan highlights the invention of eyeglasses around 1278 in Italy as a catalyst for the Renaissance. These early convex glasses extended the working lives of artists, artisans, and scholars by mitigating age-related vision issues, thereby contributing to a flourishing of art and scholarship.

“The invention of spectacles... happened just on the cusp of what became the Renaissance, the amazing and in Italy the amazing flowering of art, scholarship, architecture...” [19:35]

She also touches on the modern surge in myopia, linking it to increased indoor activities and reduced exposure to natural daylight since the advent of television.

“Our Eyes need daylight for their health, and especially children as their eyes are growing and developing.” [22:20]

Impact of Television: Shaping Consumer Culture and Politics

At [22:20], Susan discusses the transformative role of television in creating consumer society and influencing political landscapes. The medium not only introduced a plethora of consumer products but also changed political discourse, as exemplified by the Kennedy-Nixon debate where Kennedy's poised television presence contrasted with Nixon's less favorable screen image, ultimately impacting election outcomes.

“Television created the consumer society... it also convinced us that we need a lot of stuff that somehow we managed to live without before we saw it all advertised on television.” [22:20]

Section 2: The Right Way to Make Love and Money Decisions

Guest: Myra Strober
Timestamp Highlights: [30:12] – [48:41]

Shifting gears, Mike Carruthers engages with Myra Strober to explore why individuals often struggle with making significant love and money decisions and how to approach these choices more effectively.

Common Pitfalls in Decision-Making

Myra identifies two primary reasons for flawed decision-making:

1. Lack of a Systematic Approach
2. Separation of Love and Money Decisions

“The conventional wisdom is that love and money decisions are intertwined, that you make love decisions with your heart and money decisions with your head. And that's just not right.” [31:07]

She emphasizes that most significant life decisions inherently involve both emotional (love) and rational (money) components, necessitating an integrated decision-making process.

Five-Step Framework for Smart Decisions

Myra introduces a five-step framework, each beginning with the letter 'C,' designed to guide individuals in making informed and balanced decisions:

1. Clarify – Define personal desires and priorities independent of external influences.
2. Communicate – Engage in open dialogues with those affected by the decision.
3. Consider a Broad Range of Choices – Explore all possible options beyond the immediate obvious.
4. Check In – Seek feedback and insights from trusted individuals, especially those with differing perspectives.
5. Explore Likely Consequences – Anticipate both short-term and long-term outcomes of each choice.

“Our framework helps you convince yourself that this is the best decision that you can make given whatever circumstances you're facing.” [35:09]

Application and Real-World Examples

Using the scenario of moving to a new city for a job, Myra illustrates how the framework can uncover underlying love-related implications, such as family adjustment issues.

“If you don't plan... you're certainly not going to get what you want.” [43:02]

She shares anecdotal evidence, including her co-author's use of the framework in their marriage, highlighting its practical benefits in real-life situations.

Addressing Cognitive Biases

Myra touches on cognitive biases like confirmation bias, where individuals favor information that aligns with their preconceived notions, potentially skewing decision-making processes.

“You may need help figuring out what you need. But yes, confirmation bias could be a real problem.” [43:18]

By adhering to the five-step framework, individuals can mitigate these biases and approach decisions more holistically.

Integrating System 1 and System 2 Thinking

Referencing Daniel Kahneman's theories, Myra distinguishes between System 1 (fast, instinctive) and System 2 (slow, deliberate) thinking. She advocates for employing System 2 thinking when navigating major love and money decisions to ensure a balanced and thoughtful approach.

“You need to make these very big love money decisions using System 2 thinking, and particularly, I think our framework is helpful.” [46:47]

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Closing Insights

As the episode draws to a close, Mike Carruthers reinforces the importance of both understanding the historical impact of technological inventions on society and adopting structured decision-making processes in personal life. By integrating Susan Denham Wade's exploration of transformative inventions and Myra Strober's decision-making framework, listeners are equipped with both a broadened perspective on human progress and practical tools for navigating life's pivotal choices.

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Notable Quotes:

• Susan Denham Wade

  “...the appearance of mirrors tends to coincide with individuality. So this is an example from a long time ago of how a change in technology, in visual technology and seeing something different, caused a fundamental shift in mindset.” [07:57]

  “All very well to see the great sights of the world and the great works of art, but what people really wanted was themselves and each other... approximately 90% of photographs taken in the first 50 years of photography were portraits.” [11:58]

• Myra Strober

  “The conventional wisdom is that love and money decisions are intertwined, that you make love decisions with your heart and money decisions with your head. And that's just not right.” [30:30]

  “Our framework helps you convince yourself that this is the best decision that you can make given whatever circumstances you're facing.” [35:09]

  “You need to make these very big love money decisions using System 2 thinking, and particularly, I think our framework is helpful.” [46:47]

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For those intrigued by the intersection of technology, society, and personal growth, this episode of "Something You Should Know" offers a compelling blend of historical insights and actionable advice, all delivered with Mike Carruthers' signature engaging style.

Transcript

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on.

[Podcast Host]

Something you should know the interesting ways some food products got their names, then inventions that dramatically changed how we see the world. Television, eyeglasses, the smartphone, even mirrors.

[Susan Denham Wade]

And that being able to see their own reflection gave people the idea that they could see themselves as others saw them. Got them thinking about, well, who am I? I am actually a different person. I'm not just part of the so.

[Podcast Host]

You'Ve probably been told to stand up straight and suck in your gut, which turns out to be bad advice. And why do we have so much trouble with big decisions about love and money?

[Myra Strober]

The conventional wisdom is that love and money decisions are intertwined, that you make love decisions with your heart and money decisions with your head. And that's just not right.

[Podcast Host]

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[Mike Carruthers]

Something YOU SHOULD know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something YOU should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi and welcome to SOMETHING YOU should know. Have you ever been in your kitchen and looked in the cupboards or in the refrigerator and looked at some of the food and wondered, why is it called that? Where did that name come from? Well, here are the origins of some popular, somewhat random, but some popular foods that may be in your kitchen. First of all, Philadelphia Cream Cheese. It didn't really come from Philadelphia. It started in New York. It was called Philadelphia Cream Cheese because that city was associated with high quality food products. Gatorade, as you might imagine, does not contain any alligator in it. It was a kidney specialist from the University of Florida who helped develop it for the school's football team, the Florida Gators. So they named the drink Gatorade. The product name Spam was chosen for the canned meat from a contest. There is no official explanation for its meaning, but most people assume Spam stands for spiced ham. The Frisbee the flying disc Frisbee comes to you courtesy of the Frisbee Pie Company of Bridgeport, Connecticut. The empty pie tins were perfect for throwing like a frisbee. And since it was the Frisbee Pie company, they became known as Frisbees. The first plastic version was called the Pluto Platter Flying Saucer. Wham O bought the rights and stamped Frisbee on it instead. Marshmallows started out as medicine. In the 1800s, juice from the roots of the marsh mallow plant were extracted and cooked with egg whites and sugar. It was whipped up and given to children to soothe sore throats. And that is something you should know. Now, I love it when I see a topic to discuss here that I didn't actually know was a topic to and that's what you're about to hear. We're going to discuss the history of what we see and how we see it, because how we see ourselves and how we see the world has changed. And what's caused those changes are certain inventions, certain technologies that alter our vision. I mean, imagine the first mirror when people could actually see themselves clearly the way other people do. That had to change a lot. It's pretty remarkable. Or the telescope, television, the smartphone, all these things have altered our view of ourselves and the world in some way. Here to explain all this is Susan Denham Wade. She's author of a book called A History of seeing in 11 inventions. Hi, Susan welcome to something you should know.

[Susan Denham Wade]

It's great to be here, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

So explain first how you came up with this idea and formed it into a topic for discussion.

[Susan Denham Wade]

Well, the inspiration for the book was the 2014 Internet meme that became known as the dress. This was a photograph of a dress that was bought for a wedding that found its way onto the Internet. And the dress was striped. And the reason it went so viral and was actually one of the first global memes was because when people looked at the image online, they couldn't agree whether the stripes of the dress were white and gold or or blue and black. This went all around Twitter with various celebrities weighing in on their opinions. It was discussed on newscasts. And this really intrigued me and got me to wondering, wow, if people in the same time and place can look at the same thing and see something different, did people who lived hundreds or even thousands of years ago see their worlds differently? And that was the question I set out to answer, and that was the beginning of the journey.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so where did that journey take you? What did you find from looking at all this?

[Susan Denham Wade]

Well, I found that indeed people have seen their worlds differently over time, and that there have been a variety of technologies that mankind has either harnessed or discovered or invented that have really changed the world as we saw it. But not only that, each of these visual technologies has coincided with a really major inflection point in human history. So one of the big conclusions that I came to was that the world seen differently becomes a different world.

[Mike Carruthers]

So when you say, as you just said a few minutes ago, that in earlier times people saw their world differently, what does that mean?

[Susan Denham Wade]

Well, if you take for example, the invention of mirrors, the very first known mirrors were discovered in a proto town, one of the very earliest settled communities, which is in Anatolia, which is now part of Turkey. And this was a settlement of about up to 8,000 people, which existed between about 8,005 and a half thousand years ago. And archaeologists exploring this site came upon these mirrors at a time when the society fundamentally changed. As far as they could tell, up until the point that we're talking about the society, the archaeologists described it as fiercely egalitarian. There were no signs of different status. Food and other implements were shared. People's homes were more or less the same size. And then around the layer of the site where these mirrors were discovered, archaeologists noted a shift in the psychology of this community to identify a much greater sense of individualism and the emergence of a sense of self, which I think is completely mind blowing, that we don't know what came first, the sense of self. And then that generated a desire to find mirrors or whether someone had created these mirrors. And that being able to see their own reflection gave people a self realization, the idea that they could see themselves as others saw them. And that got them thinking about, well, who am I? Am I? I am actually a different person. I'm not just part of the group, I'm an individual. And in later history, with the development of psychology, for example, in the 19th century, well, actually going right back to the Romans, the mirror has become symbolic as a tool for exploring the self. But it's incredibly interesting to me that going right back through human history, it appears that mirrorless societies tend to be highly egalitarian, without much of a sense of individuality. And it's only. But the appearance of mirrors tends to coincide with that individuality. So this is an example from a long time ago of how a change in technology, in visual technology and seeing something different, different, caused a fundamental shift in mindset.

[Mike Carruthers]

So if the invention of the mirror was so transformative and people could see themselves as individuals rather than just part of the group, I mean, imagine what photography must have done. Because a mirror, a look in the mirror, is a fleeting thing, but photography lasts forever.

[Susan Denham Wade]

All the excitement about photography when it was first announced, this amazing technology that could capture an image permanently was all about about how it was going to represent the great landscapes of the world and the great monuments of antiquity and the works of art. And none of the inventors or promoters of early photography mentioned the idea of portraiture. But as soon as photography was announced, people set up portraiture studios. And this was the absolute killer app for photography. All very well to see the great sights of the world and the great works of art, but what people really wanted to see was themselves and each other. And photography studios set up all around Europe and around the usa and people, for the price of a day's wages, could get an image of themselves to keep forever. And the market for it was huge. Something like 90% of photographs taken in the first 50 years of photography were portraits.

[Mike Carruthers]

When you see early photography, early portraits, no one's smiling, no one seems to be particularly happy at all.

[Susan Denham Wade]

Well, in the earliest photographs, the earliest process was called a daguerreotype. They took about 10 to 15 minutes for the exposure to happen. So people had to stand very, very still in that time. So the photographic studios developed all kinds of props to help people stay still. So if you see people standing up often, you'll see them. There's a Pedestal that they've got an arm resting on, or they're sitting on a chair with a slightly unnaturally raised arms. And all of these were devices to help people stand really still for that time so that the image could take on the film used at the time. And so I guess it's pretty hard to hold a smile for that length of time. So they were probably advised just to keep it fairly serious.

[Mike Carruthers]

Another one of these inventions you talk about is the telescope, which not only changed the way we see the world, but the universe.

[Susan Denham Wade]

Usually credited to Galileo, but in fact, the first telescope to be brought forward publicly was from a Dutch spectacle maker whose name was lipperhei. But he tried to patent his telescope, but he was refused because the patent office decided it was too easy to copy. And unfortunately for him, the patent office was right, because people started making telescopes all around Europe. And Galileo was this very talented mathematician and craftsman. And he spent. He got the idea of the telescope, he heard about the idea of the telescope and made his own very much, much more powerful than the original Telescop telescopes that were made. And he trained his telescope on the night sky and saw things that amazed, truly amazed the world and changed forever, really, how people saw their world. What he saw was around the planet of Jupiter, three smaller stars. The planets were called the wandering stars. They were all considered to be stars, but. But it had long been observed that the planets move through the night sky in a different way than the other, what were called the fixed stars. But he saw that there was this smaller group of stars that followed Jupiter across the sky from night after night. And this was a radical thought because up until then, the received view of how the universe worked was the Earth was at the center, and the sun, the Moon and all the other planets, the stars, rather the wandering stars and the fixed stars, rotated around the Earth. But there had been some theorizing in the previous 50 years, most famously by Copernicus, that this might not be the right way to view the universe. Then, in fact, the sun might be the center of the universe and the planets revolved around it. But this was a heresy because there were various passages in the Bible that suggested that the Earth was the center and so on. But Galileo's discovery showed that because these mini stars followed Jupiter around, he concluded that they were moons of Jupiter, and that demonstrated that. That the Earth wasn't necessarily the center of the universe. This was radically controversial at the time. And indeed, Galileo eventually was hauled up in front of the Inquisition more than once. And he spent his final years under house arrest. So it didn't have a happy ending for him, but it did kick off a whole new way of viewing nature.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're talking about some important inventions that have really altered the way that you and I see the world. And my guest is Susan Denham Wade, author of A History of seeing in 11 inventions.

[Podcast Host]

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[Susan Denham Wade]

The very first eyeglasses were convex glasses, which is the ones that correct for long sight. They were most useful for people who were reaching middle age. So just as today we reach our 40s or 50s and we find it more difficult to see close up and convex glass lenses can help us, convex spectacles can, can refocus our eyes to, to improve our that sort of vision. So if you were born very short sighted around the time that the first spectacles were invented, around 1278 in Italy, I'm afraid you, they wouldn't have been much help to you. But what was so important about, about glasses and the time, at the time they were first invented was that they extended the useful life of so many of the artists, artisans and scholars of that time because they, they allowed them to keep working beyond a time when ordinarily their, their failing eyesight would have forced them to stop. And I don't think it's a coincidence that the invention of spectacles, as I say, towards the end of the 1200s happened just on the cusp of what became the Renaissance, the amazing and in Italy the amazing flowering of art, scholarship, architecture, that happened in the next couple of hundred years. It wasn't until around 1450 that concave spectacles, which, correct for short sight, were invented. But obviously that again would have been a massive revelation for people who were born short sighted. Although there were many, many fewer short sighted people then than there are. There's been a massive increase in shortsightedness in particular over the last 70 years, since the invention of television in fact. And the explanation for that is not that television itself damages our eyes, but ever since televisions came into our lives, children in particular have spent more time inside. And that does damage our eyes. One report suggests that for every additional hour spent outside your chance of developing myopia, that's short sightedness reduces by 2%. And that's because even on the Dallas day, natural daylight is about 10 times as bright as artificial light. And our Eyes need daylight for their health, and especially children as their eyes are growing and developing.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I would think that television is one of the big game changers in your list of inventions because it not only changed how we see the world, it really brought the world into our homes, good and bad. We could see things we could never see before.

[Susan Denham Wade]

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, television, you know, created the consumer society as we sat watching, happily watching TV shows through the 50s, funded by advertisers who showed us all the lovely products we could buy, and we obediently went out to buy them, whereas previous generations, you know, did without those things. Now, I'm not saying that a lot of those products haven't made our lives easier and better, but they have convinced us that we need a lot of stuff that somehow we managed to live without before we saw it all advertised on television. And politics drastically changed by television. You'll remember. Well, probably not yourself, but you'll know the story of the television debate between Nixon and Kennedy just before the election, presidential election between those two. Those who listened to it on radio named Nixon the winner of the debate. But those who watched it on television saw Nixon looking a little sweaty. He'd been ill. He had a dark shadow under his makeup of his beard coming through. Kennedy, who was a much more sickly person on the whole, had spent the morning sitting in the sun, had a crisp white shirt and exuded relaxed good health. And those who watched the debate on television, and it was the most watched program ever, I think something like 60 million people watched it, declared Kennedy the winner, and sure enough, he won that election. And, you know, more recent times have seen telegenic candidates become president once again.

[Mike Carruthers]

And then there is the smartphone, which not only has changed the way we see the world, in many ways, it is the world that we see because we spend so much time looking at it.

[Susan Denham Wade]

We spend hours and hours a day checking our phones. Many, many people have their phone by their bed. It's the last thing they look at before they go to bed. It's the first thing they look at when they wake up in the morning. It's become the dominant feature of our lives, really. Increasingly, with all the apps available, pretty much every aspect of our lives can be channeled through this little screen in our hand. It's not just a phone. In fact, the phone is one of the least used features of a smartphone. It's our encyclopedia. It's our car key, it's our bank, it's our email. It's our encyclopedia. It's our entertainment device. It's pretty much everything that it's our window onto the world. And what that's meaning, it seems to me, is that we're using our other senses less and less. So we are, I'm sure we're all guilty of sending a text to someone, even if they're in the next room, rather than putting our head around the corner and having a conversation or texting a friend or one of our family members just to say hi and have a little catch up, just because it's kind of quicker and easier, rather than speaking to them on the phone. And this is actually not great for our mental. And eventually leading on from that physical health, because we really need to hear each other. There was a research study done Wisconsin University that put a group of young girls, school children, ages, I think 7 to 12, in a stressful situation where they were asked to give a presentation to some strangers. And after that, and they had them wired up to measure the level of cortisol, the stress hormone, in their bodies. And after they'd been put in this situation, a quarter of the girls were allowed to go and be with their mothers and talk to them face to face. A second quarter was allowed to speak to their mothers on the phone. The third quarter was allowed to text with their mothers, and the fourth group had to go and sit quietly alone. And what the researchers found was that the girls who spoke to their mothers on the telephone calmed down as much as the girls who were with their mothers and talking to their mothers face to face, whereas the girls who just texted their mothers calmed down as little as the girls who just sat quietly alone. And although researchers, serious researchers are very wary about jumping to too many conclusions from what they find, the title of the research was why We still need to Hear each Other. And if you think about it, verbal and oral communication has been our primary form of communication for tens of thousands of years. This is. Language is what, one of the things that made us human. We are hardwired to learn to speak. No child needs to be taught to speak. They just pick it up naturally. It's part of our. It's in our DNA. Whereas everyone has to be taught to read and write. It's not an innate human skill. It's a learnt, learned ability.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, as I said at the start, this is a topic that I didn't really know was a topic. You actually really created the topic by putting these 11 inventions together and looking at the world through them. And it's been a lot of fun. Susan Denham Waite has been my guest. The name of the book is A History of seeing in 11 inventions and you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Susan. This was fun.

[Susan Denham Wade]

Well, thank you very much, Mike.

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[Mike Carruthers]

When it comes to major decisions in your life, there are a couple of categories that are huge. They are love and money. And as you may have noticed in your own life, we tend to struggle with those decisions and end up regretting some of them. So why is that? Why do we mess up some of the biggest decisions in our lives? And how can we make better love and money decisions? Well, here to discuss that is Myra Strober. She is a labor economist and professor at Stanford University and author of a book called Money and An Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Biggest Decisions. Hi Myra, welcome to something you should know.

[Myra Strober]

Thank you, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

So I would imagine that everyone listening can think back to a decision regarding love or money or both that they regret. So why do you suppose that is? I mean, why do we mess up what seems to be such an important decision?

[Myra Strober]

I think there are two reasons. One is that people don't make these decisions in a systematic way. That's the first reason. And the second reason is that people tend to see money and love decisions as separate. So money decisions concern money and love decisions concern love and never the twain shall meet. But in fact, most life's decisions, especially the big ones, are both love and money decisions.

[Mike Carruthers]

But it seems to me it's not only the decision you make, because you could make what appears to be the right decision. But things don't always go according to plan. Things don't go the way you think they're going to go. Life has a way of serving up curveballs that if things had gone the way you thought, that decision would have been great. But it didn't go that way. But how would you have known?

[Myra Strober]

You certainly can't predict the future, but you can ask yourself, when you make your decision, what are the likely consequences of this decision? What are the likely things that are going to happen? So, for example, if you're considering moving to another city for a job and you have a family, you might think this is a money decision. The money is so much better in this new job. But in fact, it's a love decision too, because your family is involved. And if six months down the line, your daughter is depressed because she can't adjust to her new school. Had you thought in advance what are the likely consequences for my daughter of this decision, you might have predicted that she would have a difficult time. You might have taken some steps to ease that transition, and the situation might be a little bit better had you anticipated the consequences.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, see, that's a good example of what I mean, that your daughter might have trouble adapting to her new school. She might thrive in the new school. There's no way to know until it happens. And it only happens after the decision. And then you have to deal with the consequences. But you can't have predicted that. I mean, it's kind of a. It's kind of a crapshoot.

[Myra Strober]

No, I don't really think it's quite a crapshoot. Of course, you can't know everything. For instance, you can't know that the, the girl next door to where you moved is going to make life difficult for her. You could, you couldn't know that. But you, you know your daughter, you know if she adjusts easily to new circumstances or not. You could have a conversation, you should have a conversation with your daughter about this move, unless she's under the age of five, and ask her, what is this going to be like for you? Are you looking forward to it? Are you concerned about it? What are you concerned about? And then you could take steps to try to mitigate the effects of this for her.

[Podcast Guest]

So I guess maybe what my point was is that it is human nature to think about the road not taken. And so you'll always wonder, what if when faced with a choice like what you're talking about, should I move there, should I take that job, should I marry that person or that person, you're always going to wonder, no matter what you choose and how great a decision, what if you had done something different?

[Myra Strober]

Well, I think that may be true, but we have a very flexible five step framework for making these decisions. And what the hope is, is that after you've taken these five steps, you have convinced yourself that this is the best decision that you can make given whatever circumstances you're facing. So, you know, you might be taking a walk in the beautiful woods and think about what might have happened, you know, had your parents been born millionaires. But you need to deal with reality and you need to convince yourself, and I think our framework helps you do that, that this is the best decision that you could make given what you knew at the time.

[Podcast Guest]

So what are those five steps?

[Myra Strober]

Well, the first one is clarify. Clarify for yourself what it is that you want. What's important to you and what's important to you, not to your parents or your spouse or somebody else in your life. Try to figure out what you really care about. And then the second step is communication. Then you need to communicate that to whoever else is in your life making these decisions with you. And you know, as you communicate and you listen to the other person's hopes and dreams, you may revise your own. You may start thinking about some issues that you hadn't thought about before. So first clarify and then communicate. And then you need to consider a broad range of choices. So let's go back to the moving decision. You've been offered a job in another city. Your family agrees that you need more money. It's a good career step for you. And you have already clarified that your career is important to you. But what are the other possible choices? Have you looked around in the same city where you are at other possible jobs? Or did this, this new job possibility come out of the blue and it seems so attractive and you're going to take it? So unless you convince yourself that in order to get what it is you're looking for, you must move, you may well be sorry later on because you didn't do the kind of seeking that would give you a broader range of choices. The fourth step is check in. So it's the five Cs framework. These all start with Cs. Clarify, communicate. Consider a broad range of choices, and now check in. So you want to check in with family and friends and other people whom you admire and ask Them, have they faced these kinds of decisions? What did they do? How did it turn out for them? Share your thought process with them. I'm doing this because I want more money. I'm doing this because I think my career will be furthered by this. Ask them about family ramifications of decisions that they may have made. And the last step is what I talked about before. Explore the likely consequences. And you need to explore the consequences both short term and long term. So let's go back to the daughter who is not happy in the new environment. Maybe she's not happy, you know, six months after you move, but maybe she's in a school that's far better than the one that she left. And three years from now she'll realize that this was a really good move because her school life and her education is far better than it would have been. So you know there are short term consequences and longer term consequences.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, your five step process certainly makes sense. It sounds good, but how do you know it works? I mean, is there research? Did you, how do you know that doing those five steps are better than any other five steps that somebody would come up with?

[Myra Strober]

I taught a course at the Stanford Business School and also in the undergraduate part of the university for more than 40 years on the topic of work and family. Over that time I've had thousands of students who write back to me and say, I mean, not all thousands write back, but many of them write back and say, thinking about these issues when I was in your course has really helped me down the line. I feel that I have better decisions. I feel that this helps me. When I have a big decision to make. I think about the class. And in fact, my co author, Abby Davison was a student in that class and the man who took the class with her is now her husband. So they have used this framework for their entire marriage and now they have two young children. And the anecdotal evidence is that people feel helped by this framework and this way of deciding.

[Mike Carruthers]

When people make decisions on their own and don't use your process, where is it you think people tend to go wrong?

[Myra Strober]

Well, I think they haven't really gone through steps one and two. They have not clarified for themselves what it is they want. Most of us are stuck for life with, you know, our parents voices in our heads and our parents for the most part, not all parents, but our parents pretty much told us what they want for us. And somewhere along the line of reaching an adult, we need to put our parents voices in the background, develop our own Voices and make decisions based on our own voices. But I think lots of people still are not making decisions that. That are going to benefit them as much as. As might be the case. Well, I think the second place they go wrong is in communication. So a lot of these decisions are fraught because couples are in different places in their lives, and they haven't taken the time to come together and figure out what it is they can both agree upon. And I think a lot of these fraught decisions come when couples have other issues underlying this particular decision.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, what you said about really taking the time to figure out what it is you want, not what somebody else wants, that's a step I think a lot of people skip because there are so many other influences and there's so many assumptions people make about what they want that they don't really stop and go, hey, wait a minute, let's really stop here. What is it I want?

[Myra Strober]

Right? And so think about somebody deciding to apply to medical school. Their whole life up to that point, their parents have said, this would be a good career for you. Their older brother is already in that career. And so they talk to their older brother, and their older brother says, you know, this is just a wonderful career. I just love medicine. I love being a doctor. Well, the next step is to talk to some other people who don't like being a doctor or who thought they might and decided otherwise. You know, if you stack the deck toward a certain decision, you don't really have enough input to figure out if this is the right decision for you.

[Podcast Guest]

Well, and, you know, we've talked about it on this podcast before. I think people do tend to fall into that confirmation bias trap where they just look for things that confirm what. What they. Their gut is telling them.

[Myra Strober]

Yes, I think that's right. And that's why, you know, you may need help figuring out what you need. But yes, confirmation bias could be a real problem. You do want to talk to some people who have a different perspective and see what you think about that.

[Podcast Guest]

But it would also seem that as you make these decisions, it's not just a snapshot in time. There's got to be course correction, because the decision, you know, you decided to take this new job, but then the guy that hired you left, and now you've got a new. So there's always things that happen. It isn't frozen in time that I made this decision, and now we go forward the way I decided.

[Myra Strober]

True enough. I mean, you know, there's an old Yiddish saying that man plans and God laughs. Because planning only gets you so far. There are things that happen that nobody anticipated. Nonetheless, if you don't plan, you know, you're certainly not going to get what you want. So, yes, you have to have course corrections, and you and your spouse need, or your partner need good communication. So when this new curve ball comes onto the field, you have somebody to talk to about it, and, you know, okay, what are we going to do next? And it's. We. Even though it's a job decision, it involves love, it involves your family, and, you know, they need to be supportive of you, and they need to know what they want.

[Podcast Guest]

I can just think back in my own life of some decisions I've made that I didn't really. I kind of, like, already had it in my head what the decision was going to be without really going through any process of. It just felt right. It just seemed right. This is an opportunity I can't pass up. I suspect that happens to a lot of people where they just say, wow, I've got to grab this right now and go. And never do what you're talking about.

[Myra Strober]

Yes. That's what I have learned over the years, is that people tend to do that. And, you know, it's rare that a decision this big has to be made certainly within 24 hours or maybe even within a week. And people need to take the time to go through our process to check in with other people whom they admire and make sure they check in with people who have a different perspective than theirs and take the time to make these decisions. You know, take the decision, who am I going to marry? Certainly you have to make that decision in part with your gut. I mean, you don't want to marry someone, never mind marry, but live with them, be a partner with them. It doesn't matter whether marriage is involved, particularly or not. But, you know, is this the person I want to spend the rest of my life with? Well, that is surely a biggie. And you want your gut to be involved, but you want your head to be involved, too. And you want to think about the financial implications of this decision. And making that decision solely with your gut is not going to necessarily work out.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it's interesting.

[Mike Carruthers]

We make decisions all day long, big ones and little ones, and often don't think about the process of making the decision. We just make the decision and then have to live with the consequences.

[Myra Strober]

You know, Daniel Kahneman talks about system one thinking and system two thinking. System one, you make the decision with your gut and you move on. System two is more like the framework we are proposing. And you need to make these very big love money decisions using System 2 thinking, and particularly, I think our framework is helpful. The second thing is that love and money decisions are intertwined. You know, the conventional wisdom is that you make love decisions with your heart and money decisions with your head. And you know, that's just not right. Even when you're deciding you know how to invest your portfolio, you might think that that is only a financial decision, but it isn't. Because the question now is, what do you want? What do you want this money to do for you? To whom do you want to leave the money if there's money left over at the end, and why? And what are their needs? So there are no purely financial decisions and no purely love decisions. They're all intertwined.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it is so easy, even with really big decisions, to go with your gut, you know, oh, this just feels right. And I enjoy hearing what you say about, you know, there's a system, there's a way to analyze this that isn't quite so romantic as going with your gut, but may yield a better decision. I've been talking to Myra Strober. She's a labor economist and professor at Stanford University. The name of her book is Money and An Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Biggest Decisions. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Myra. Enjoyed the conversation.

[Myra Strober]

Thanks, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

How many times have you been told to stand up straight and suck in your gut? Well, the stand up straight part's probably fine. It's the sucking in your gut thing that could be a problem, even though some people do it all the time. When you suck in your stomach, it prevents you from breathing properly. That shallow breathing can actually lead to anxiety and poor balance and, and crummy posture. It can also lead to incontinence and a whole host of other problems. So stand up straight, that's fine, but relax your stomach muscles and that is something you should know. If someone asks you what podcast you listen to, I hope you'll remember to tell them about this one. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Mint Mobile Representative]

Hi, I'm Sarah Gabrielli and I've traveled to every single lesbian bar in the country for my podcast, Cruising.

[Myra Strober]

Dancing was a no, no, no women dancing. That would be something that, yes, the cops would grab you for. There were no black owned female gay bars. We needed a place of our lawn in those days. We went to the bars to socialize because there was no other way. When you went to Brady's bar, you knew you were safe.

[Mint Mobile Representative]

This is Cruising, a documentary podcast about queer spaces, history and culture. Each episode of Cruising features a different space and tells the stories of the humans that run it and the humans that call it home. You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Season one and two are available now, so be sure to binge them before season three, which will go beyond the bars to queer bookstores, farms, peace encampments and more. Premiering February 4th.

[Amy Nicholson]

If you were caught up in the Barbenheimer frenzy, if you love ranking the Mission Impossible films, if you are just an all around movie fan, I have a podcast for you. Hello, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm a film critic who writes for the New York Times and I'm also the co host of Unspooled, the ultimate movie podcast. Each week my co host Paul Scheer and I unspool famous films to see if they are truly all time classics. From the original 1984 Karate Kid to Children of Men to more recent pictures to Dune, yes to Citizen Kane, we cover it all. Listen to Unspooled Wherever you get your podcasts.