Has Tipping Gone Too Far? & Why You Don’t Do What You Want

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Something You Should Know

Episode: Has Tipping Gone Too Far? & Why You Don’t Do What You Want
Date: April 16, 2026
Host: Mike Carruthers | Guest Experts: Michael Lynn, Dr. George James

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Episode Overview

This episode explores two timely, personal topics. First, it delves into the confusion and cultural evolution around tipping—why it exists, why norms are shifting, and what’s actually expected of us. Michael Lynn, professor and leading tipping researcher, weighs in on the social and psychological factors driving tipping behaviors today. The second half features therapist and consultant Dr. George James, who discusses why people hold themselves back from doing things they want or need to do, and how to “give yourself permission” to act more boldly and with self-compassion.

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Segment 1: The New Tipping Culture

Guest: Michael Lynn, Professor of Services Marketing, Cornell Hotel School
Timestamps: 06:28–27:28

Key Points & Insights

• Origins of Tipping (06:47–07:38)

  • Tipping in eating/drinking establishments may have begun as a way for customers to "forestall the service workers' envy."
  • “Consistent with that, the word for tip in many different languages around the world translates to drink money or money for drink.” – Michael Lynn (07:21)

• Global Tipping Practices (07:38–09:52)

  • The U.S. tips more frequently and in higher amounts than almost anywhere else.
  • Cultural values like extroversion and uncertainty avoidance explain differences: “In nations where people have a strong desire to avoid uncertainty…they tend to tip a larger number of service providers.” – Michael Lynn (08:44)

• Motivations & Timing (09:52–11:02)

  • While many believe tipping incentivizes better service (especially if you’re a regular), the incentive exchanges are often unclear, particularly since tips are usually left after service.
  • “Services are… called an experience good. We don’t know what we’re going to get until we buy them and receive them…withholding payment gives that worker an incentive to do a good job.” – Michael Lynn (10:34)

• History of Tipping Controversies (11:02–12:12)

  • Periodic backlash isn’t new—some states even outlawed tipping in the early 1900s (laws later repealed).
  • “But there's always been opposition to tipping…The current digital tip request…has created a backlash.” – Michael Lynn (11:43)

• The Digital Tipping Backlash (12:12–14:16)

  • Many consumers find being asked to tip before service manipulative.
  • Tipping, especially for things like restaurant carryout, is not the norm: “Surveys tell us that only about 25% of consumers say they usually or often tip for restaurant carry out. It’s not a norm if three quarters of the country isn’t doing it.” – Michael Lynn (13:50)

• Tipping Percentages and Trends (14:16–16:11)

  • The “expected” tip has crept up from 15% to close to 20%, driven by factors like cashless payments and social dynamics.
  • “Part of the motivation for tipping is to get some kind of social position…In order to get that preferential perception, I have to give an above average tip.” – Michael Lynn (15:44)

• Where Does Your Tip Go? (18:34–19:57)

  • Most of the time, servers keep the bulk of the tip, though tip pooling is common with other tipped staff (busboys, bartenders).
  • “If you tip a server, that server is going to keep almost all of the tips.” – Michael Lynn (19:45)

• Who Should You Tip? (19:57–21:50)

  • “You get to decide and you get to decide what the legitimate reasons or motivations for tipping are.” – Michael Lynn (20:14)
  • Tipping can be motivated by gratitude, supporting low-wage workers, or ensuring better future service.

• What if the Experience Wasn’t Great? (21:50–23:27)

  • No universal answer, but if the problem wasn’t the server’s fault, you might not want to lower the tip.
  • “There’s no God of tipping…Yes, there are social expectations…90% of people think you should tip waiters and waitresses. Many fewer think you should tip baristas.” – Michael Lynn (22:40)

• Psychological Factors and Tip Influencers (23:27–25:03)

  • Many subtle cues increase tips: a server introducing themselves, writing “thank you” or drawing a smiley, squatting to eye level, or touching customers lightly.
  • “If the waitress draws a smiley face on the check, they’ll get a larger tip.” – Michael Lynn (24:18)
  • “I did a study…server got a dollar more per table when he squatted down next to it.” – Michael Lynn (24:40)

• Norms: Before or After Tax? (25:03–25:48)

  • Traditionally, tips are calculated on pre-tax amounts, but there is variation.

• Surprisingly Unclear Social Norms (25:48–27:23)

  • About 30% of Americans don’t know the “expected” 15-20% range in restaurants.
  • “I was shocked to learn that roughly 30% of the country doesn’t know you’re supposed to tip 15 to 20%.” – Michael Lynn (26:00)

Memorable Quotes

• “There’s no God of tipping… there are social expectations… but you get to decide.” – Michael Lynn (22:23)
• “Surveys tell us that only about 25% of consumers say they usually or often tip for restaurant carry out. It’s not a norm if three-quarters of the country isn’t doing it.” – Michael Lynn (13:50)
• “If you tip a server, that server is going to keep almost all of the tips.” – Michael Lynn (19:45)

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Segment 2: Giving Yourself Permission

Guest: Dr. George James, Therapist, Author of "I Give Myself Permission"
Timestamps: 28:32–49:53

Key Points & Insights

• Why We Don’t Do What We Want (28:32–30:42)

  • Many people put themselves last; external expectations often override personal needs.
  • “Some people are looking for someone else to give them permission. Some people just put limits on themselves and what they think is possible.” – Dr. George James (29:54)

• Fear and Narratives (30:42–32:13)

  • Fear of looking foolish and desire for safety inhibit action.
  • “There are these narratives that we believe about ourself…shaped in our households, in our communities, in our society…they’re not always true.” – Dr. George James (31:36)

• Examining and Challenging Narratives (32:13–35:01)

  • Example: Many mothers feel pressured to be perfect and can’t prioritize themselves.
  • Personal anecdote: Dr. James describes how changing a family belief about showing affection (kissing his father) led to more meaningful connections.
  • “The stories we tell ourselves about who you are…sometimes they’re true, but sometimes they’re not, and we have to examine it so that we can give ourselves permission.” – Dr. George James (34:20)

• Taking Emotional Risks and the Value of Trying (37:07–38:18)

  • Risk-taking, whether emotional (showing affection) or practical (trying something new), can foster growth.
  • “How many times when we take that risk, does it actually…we learn from it or we grow from it, or the great experience comes from it? I think many times.” – Dr. George James (37:54)

• Fear of Judgment and Regret (38:18–43:12)

  • We often overestimate others’ interest in (or memory of) our actions.
  • “My experience is that nobody cares. Nobody cares about you. They’re all worried about them.” – Mike Carruthers (38:38)
  • “I don’t want to regret not doing it…That’s the worst feeling in the world.” – Mike Carruthers (42:44)

• Practical Suggestions: How to Start (40:24–42:03)

  • Start with what’s top of mind for you, take one small first step, seek support when possible.
  • “You don’t have to, like, jump in the deep end. And oftentimes we are not going to be able to give ourselves permission by ourselves. We will need support and help.” – Dr. George James (41:19)

• Emotional Risks Beyond Achievement (42:03–43:12)

  • Emotional risks can include forgiveness or choosing to invest time in loved ones.
  • “To take the risk, to forgive. Like, that’s…a huge emotional undertaking.” – Dr. George James (42:09)

• Trying and Deciding Against (43:12–45:53)

  • Even when you try something and realize it’s not for you, there’s value in resolving the curiosity.
  • “You can take the risk…realize that’s not the thing for you, but at least you know you tried it.” – Dr. George James (44:21)

Memorable Quotes

• “There are these narratives…they’re not always true, and that is a place where we can push back and give ourselves permission.” – Dr. George James (31:36)
• “We create these stories and narratives about whatever the thing is that we’re trying to give ourselves permission to do…And oftentimes it’s false until we actually take up the enough courage or get enough support to actually do it.” – Dr. George James (36:30)
• “It’s a snowball effect, right? One thing…it just keeps rolling into the next thing. And…not having regret, like, I could say, like, I had that moment.” – Dr. George James (48:33)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Tipping Norms:
  “Surveys tell us that only about 25% of consumers say they usually or often tip for restaurant carry out. It’s not a norm if three-quarters of the country isn’t doing it.” – Michael Lynn (13:50)

• On Permission & Personal Change:
  “The stories we tell ourselves about who you are, what you can do, what you shouldn’t do, based on all the roles we play…sometimes they're not true, and we have to examine it so that we can give ourselves permission.” – Dr. George James (34:19)

• On Regret:
  “I don’t want to regret not doing it…That’s the worst feeling in the world.” – Mike Carruthers (42:44)

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Timestamps of Major Segments

| Segment Title | Start | End | |----------------------------------|---------|---------| | Tipping Culture | 06:28 | 27:28 | | Give Yourself Permission | 28:32 | 49:53 |

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Tipping: The practice has always been complex, and the “rules” are less universal than we think. Digital payment systems, increased demands, and cultural changes are fueling confusion and backlash. Ultimately, tipping remains a personal decision within broad, imperfect social conventions.
• Self-Permission: Barriers to self-care, risk-taking, and putting yourself first are often internal narratives, not external realities. By questioning and challenging these stories, and by taking small steps, you can live more authentically, avoid regret, and foster personal growth.

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Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Michael Lynn]

Almost every restaurant today will ask you for a tip when you get restaurant carryout. The fact is, surveys tell us that only about 25% of consumers say they usually or often tip. It's not a norm if 3/4 of the country isn't doing it.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also why drivers of cars have so much trouble seeing bikes and motorcycles, and why we deny ourselves the things we really want to do and how to do them anyway.

[Dr. George James]

The stories we tell ourselves about who you are, what you can do, what you shouldn't do, based off of all the different parts and roles we play in our life. Sometimes they're true, but sometimes they're not, and we have to examine it so that we can give ourselves permission.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Michael Lynn]

Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and

[Mike Carruthers]

practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you Should Know with Mike Carruthers There are words and phrases that show up on LinkedIn profiles and on resumes. They probably shouldn't be there, and we're going to start with those words today on this episode of Something you should Know. Hi, I'm Mike Carruthers and welcome. So if you're working on your resume or writing your LinkedIn profile, it's common and tempting to use impressive sounding words to make you sound more impressive. The problem is, it doesn't really work. Hiring managers tend to agree that these words are pretty meaningless. Extensive experience. You could have extensive experience as a web designer and still be the worst web designer in the world. How long matters less than what you've actually done. Another one is world class. If you are world class at anything, the obvious question is according to who? If it's just according to you, you probably shouldn't use it. Results oriented. That shows up a lot. Well, why would you be anything else? So it's probably pretty pointless. Proven Track record. We all have a proven track record. It's what you've done specifically that's important. Guru. It's great when customers affectionately describe you as a guru in your industry, but refer to yourself that way and it's obvious you're trying too hard to impress other people. And creative. Creative is one of those words that has been used so much it really doesn't mean anything. Just like extensive, effective, proven, influential and team player. And that is something you should know. Tipping has become one of the most talked about and frustrating parts of everyday life. It used to be simple. You. You tipped for good service. But now you're asked to tip everywhere, sometimes before you've even received anything. Suggested tips are higher, the expectations are less clear, and a lot of people are starting to feel a little fed up. At the same time, millions of workers rely on tips to make a living. For them, tipping isn't optional, it's essential. So what's the right thing to do? What counts as an appropriate tip today? Is it okay not to tip if the experience isn't great? And how did tipping evolve into what it is now. My guest has been studying this for decades. Michael Lin is a professor of services marketing at the Cornell Hotel School. He's a former busboy, bartender and waiter, and he spent over 40 years researching tipping and has published more than 80 scientific papers on the top. He's also author of the book the Psychology of Scientific Insights for services customers, workers and managers. Hey, Michael. Welcome to something you should know.

[Dr. George James]

Hello.

[Michael Lynn]

Thanks for inviting me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So tipping has really gotten to be a real topic of conversation. It didn't seem like it used to be people just tipped and people didn't talk about it. But I first want to know, where did this all begin? How did we start tipping people for service?

[Michael Lynn]

There is no definitive answer, but there are lots of ideas out there. The anthropologist George Foster believes that tipping originated. Certainly tipping and eating and drinking establishments originated as a way of forestalling the service. Workers envy that it's natural for us to envy people who are better off than us. And when you're in an eating and drinking establishment, as a customer, you're enjoying yourself, having a good time, whereas the workers are toiling away to serve you. And so tipping, he argued, is a way for the customer to say, hey, don't envy me. Here's some money. You can have a drink on me later after work. Consistent with that, the word for tip in many different languages around the world translates to drink money or money for drink.

[Mike Carruthers]

What does tipping look like around the world? Is it pretty common? Are there places where you just don't tip? Are there places that tip more than we do? What does it look like?

[Michael Lynn]

It is common in some places around the globe. It is not common in every country, and nowhere is it as common as the United States.

[Mike Carruthers]

And even in the amount of what you tip is different in different places. I remember being in the UK and tipping as an American and getting a look like, woo, thanks. Because they don't tip as much.

[Michael Lynn]

That's correct. In the United States, we tip more service providers and we tip larger amounts than any other country.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I wonder why that is, why there's so much variation in tipping.

[Michael Lynn]

Researchers have looked at why tipping customs vary, and it tends to be related to the characteristics of the national populations. For example, extra countries where the people are more extroverted tend to tip both a larger number of service providers and also to tip larger amounts. Differences in the values that the populations hold also matter. For example, in nations where people have have a strong desire to avoid uncertainty, they just really can't tolerate uncertainty, they tend to tip a larger number of Service providers, although they don't tip larger amounts when they do tip. Basically tipping, there are differences in tipping norms, but those differences also have causes and I think they relate back to the motivations for tipping. If you tip to get the server's attention and to get, you know, treated really well, then as an extrovert, you're going to value that more. And national populations that are extroverted that value the benefits of tipping are going to be more likely to adopt the custom. Tipping also helps to reduce uncertainty about how you're going to be treated. And the more you value that reduction of uncertainty, the more you're going to support and adopt tipping norms.

[Mike Carruthers]

What you just said, it's to ensure that you're going to get good service. But my experience is you tip when you're done. So the tip doesn't come until the service has been rendered. So you're not insuring anything. You're just paying for good service or you're not paying if the service was bad.

[Michael Lynn]

Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of reactions or responses to that. First off, in a repeated exchange, that is, if you're going to a place where you're a regular and you're going to encounter that server again, your tip today can buy future service. The other argument is, look, services are what are called an experience good. We don't know what we're going to get until we buy them and receive them. Right. And I can't be sure I'm going to get good service by withholding payment. It gives that worker an incentive to do a good job. And that's a little reassuring to me that I now have a good incentive to make sure they're going to meet my needs.

[Mike Carruthers]

So we're going through a thing now where people are very upset about tipping and concerned and don't want to and all of that. It's a real bump in the tipping road. But has tipping generally just been a pretty calm, normal part of business up until now, or have there been other bumps in the road along the way?

[Michael Lynn]

Oh, no, there have been a lot of bumps in the road. There was a guy who wrote a book arguing against tipping. Way back in the 1900s, I want to say seven or eight states passed laws outlawing tipping. Now those laws either were repealed or ruled unconstitutional, so that by the 1920s, none of those laws existed. But there's always been opposition to tipping. It is true that the current digital tip request and the expansion of people who are asking for tips and the amounts they're asking for has created A backlash. And there's more anti tipping sentiment today than there was 10 years ago. But the idea that there's opposition to tipping, that's not new at all.

[Mike Carruthers]

The opposition today seems to be. Well, I know why. It's not that I'm opposed to tipping. I don't like to be asked before the service is rendered to tip because I've got nothing to base it on other than you want this.

[Michael Lynn]

And you're not alone. People have done research on this and consumers find it manipulative and don't see the point and are unhappy about these pre service tip requests.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, well, it seems like tipping now has become more of a surcharge, like it's expected regardless of the service. It's just a surcharge on top of whatever the price was. And I think people are really put off by that.

[Michael Lynn]

But you can argue that it's a voluntary surcharge. You don't have to tip.

[Mike Carruthers]

But I've heard stories of people who didn't tip and got chased out the restaurant by the server first and screaming at them for not tipping them.

[Michael Lynn]

I've heard those stories too, and no doubt that does occur, but it's so rare. More commonly, of course, the people who are asking for tips want them and if you don't give it to them, they're going to be unhappy with you. But just because people are asking for tips doesn't mean that consumers are giving them. Almost every restaurant today will ask you for a tip. When you get restaurant carry out, that is, you order it, you go pick it up and take it home to eat, they'll ask you for a tip. The fact is, surveys tell us that only about 25% of consumers say they usually or often tip for restaurant carry out. It's not a norm if 3/4 of the country isn't doing it right. And even though that worker might be a little upset with me because I didn't leave a tip, I'm not the only one they're going to be upset with.75% of their customers are going to share that disfavor and that diminishes its impact on me a little bit.

[Mike Carruthers]

So most of my years of growing up, the expected tip at a restaurant was 15% for a long time and now it's at least 20%. How did where'd that jump come from?

[Michael Lynn]

Well, first off, the norm has been 15 to 20% since at least the 1950s. Okay. The average tip has increased from about 15% to 18, 19%. Today it's not quite 20%. But you're right, restaurants are asking sometimes for 30% tips today. Again, just because people are asking doesn't mean consumers are giving. And I wouldn't interpret request as indicative of what the social norm is. But the question of why has tipping increased over time? Why is the average increase from 15 to close to 20%? We don't know that either. And I can come up with a couple of potential explanations. One is that the use of non cash payments has increased and we know that people who pay with credit tend to tip more than people who pay with cash. Another possibility is that more and you know, the population of the country has become more urban and urban consumers tend to tip more than rural consumers. My favorite explanation, although I don't have any empirical support for it, is that part of the motivation for tipping is to get some kind of social position. I want the server to like me more than they like most of their customers to give me better service than they give most of their customers to think of me as high status. In order to get that preferential perception and treatment, I have to give an above average chip.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Michael Lynn]

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[Michael Lynn]

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[Michael Lynn]

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[Mike Carruthers]

$50,000 in qualifying purchases on your new card within the first six months of card membership terms apply. Learn more at go MX Graphite. We're talking about tipping, and my guest is Michael Lynn. He's the author of the Psychology of Tipping. So, Michael, when I tip, I tip the waiter. I think that I'm tipping the waiter, but then I hear things like, well, often they pool their tips and they share their tips with the staff. And so what's the rule on that?

[Michael Lynn]

The vast majority of the time, the server gets to keep at least the bulk of the tips. Under federal law, if you take a tip credit, meaning you pay your workers less than the standard minimum wage, because the difference is going to be made up for in tips. If you pay that sub minimum wage, then you can only require servers to share their tips with other traditionally tipped workers. So it's very common for waiters to have to share their tips with the bartender and often with a busboy, but not with the cooks, not with the hostess, for example, because those are not traditionally tipped occupations. Now, under recent developments in that federal law, if you don't claim a tip credit if you pay this regular minimum wage, then yes, you can require servers to share their tips more broadly, not with management, but with other hourly employees. And that does happen. New York City, for example. I think tip pooling is far more common than it is elsewhere in the country. But the vast majority of your listeners, if they tip a server, that server is going to keep almost all of the tips.

[Mike Carruthers]

There's also the question of who do you tip? Like how. How down far down the chain do you go? Or do you know? It's. It seems like I don't really know. I mean, what. I don't know if it's etiquette or like, how do you decide?

[Michael Lynn]

First off, I think you just need to realize that you get to decide and you get to decide what the legitimate reasons or motivations for tipping are. Some people tip because they want to express gratitude. And if indeed a service provider has gone above and beyond the ordinary and you want to express gratitude, by all means do that. If they haven't gone above and beyond the ordinary, you may not feel as compelled to give them a tip. But if you realize that servers are making a low wage and you kind of, and they seem like nice people who are hard working, and they deserve, you know, to have a livable wage. And you want a tip to help make up for that. That's a perfectly legitimate and I think a really strong argument for tipping, especially waiters and waitresses who don't even make the standard minimum wage if you want to buy future service. Look, I don't like the idea of tipping for restaurant carry out, and I don't think, I know it's not a norm, but I tend to go to the exact same restaurant over and over again. And after the first couple of times, I started noticing they made errors in my order and I started tipping and I don't get those errors anymore. So I tip for future service. Do I like it? No. But I get to decide whether it's worth the cost or not.

[Mike Carruthers]

So one of the. One of the things, when you're sitting at the restaurant table trying to decide what to tip, there's other factors that come into play that, you know, maybe the service was slow because the kitchen was backed up. Maybe your food came and it was cold. It's not necessarily the server's fault. But overall it contributed to a less than ideal experience. Does that, should that be reflected in the tip to the waiter or should that be a complaint to the manager? Or should you just suck it up?

[Michael Lynn]

Oh, wow. Look, if you're a waiter or waitress, it's. The obvious answer is no, don't deduct from my tips because of things outside of my control. But as a consumer, you have to say, why am I going to pay this extra amount when the whole experience was less than satisfactory? And I'm not prepared to tell people what they should or shouldn't do, by the way. No, I don't have that authority. No one else does either. Miss Manners, Amy Vanderbilt. There's no God of tipping. Okay. Yes, there are social expectations on the part of the service workers. To some extent those may be shared depending on the circumstances. For example, 90% of people think you should tip waiters and waitresses. Many fewer think you should tip baristas, for example. So how widely shared those expectations are varies.

[Mike Carruthers]

What about. I've heard stories of that. There's psychology to the idea that if the waiter writes like a little smiley face on the bill, that people tend to tip more. If the bill comes in a little booklet, the people tend to tip more. Is there any real research on that?

[Michael Lynn]

Oh, there's a lot of research on that, yeah. Yes. If a surfer introduces themselves by their own name, they get a larger tip. If they call the customer by the customer's name, they get a larger tip if they touch the customer briefly on the arm or shoulder during the service encounter, they get a larger tip if they write thank you and they get a larger tip especially. And if they draw, if waitresses draw a smiley face on the check, they'll get a larger tip standing close to the table as a. And by close, I mean say half a foot away from the table as opposed to a foot and a half away. You'll get a larger tip if you squat down next to the table. You know, the server squats down on their haunches. It makes their head at the same level as the customers and that facilitates eye contact. It makes the server appear to be physically closer. And that's been shown to increase tips. In fact, I did a study of that and found that the server got a dollar more per table when he squatted down next to it. There are a lot, there's a lot of research looking at specific behaviors servers can do to increase tips.

[Mike Carruthers]

What about this idea of it always comes up like at the table when you're figuring out the tip and someone will say, well, you don't tip on the tax. Oh no, it's fine, you tip on the total. And I don't know what is the standard etiquette there.

[Michael Lynn]

Traditionally you tip on the pre tax amount. But you're right, nowadays restaurants are trying to calculate that and giving you here's what 15% of the bill would be. And often they're basing that on the total amount. Again, who's to say who's right or wrong? There are differences of opinion. Servers will say tip on the whole amount. Traditionally it's you tip on the pre tax amount.

[Mike Carruthers]

You've been studying this for a long time. Is there anything that surprises you or has surprised you in your research about tipping and how people do it and all?

[Michael Lynn]

The thing that surprised me the most in my research was doing surveys asking people how much you expected to tip in this country. And I was shocked to learn that roughly 30% of the country doesn't know you're supposed to tip 15 to 20% in restaurants. I thought, how could you not know that? Etiquette books have been teaching this for decades and yet 30% of the country doesn't know that's the norm.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that is surprising. But you've certainly provided some insight here. And ultimately, you know, it's up to the customer to tip or not tip or raise or lower the tip. You don't have to listen to the restaurant or convention. It's up to you.

[Michael Lynn]

If you fail to give a tip when it's wanted, people will be unhappy and they'll be unhappy with you. But you may not be the only one they're unhappy with. And you have to decide if it's worth that extra cost or not to make this person happy.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I think you've addressed and cleared up a lot of questions that people have about the whole topic of tipping. I've been talking to Michael Lynn. He is author of the book the Psychology of Scientific Insights for Services, Customers, Workers, and Managers, and there's a link to that book in the show notes. Michael, thanks for addressing all these questions.

[Michael Lynn]

Well, thank you for having me on and asking these questions.

[Mike Carruthers]

You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried.

[Dr. George James]

This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute.

[Mike Carruthers]

Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin.

[Dr. George James]

The sun is relentless, but so is our gear.

[Mike Carruthers]

Level up your [e-mail] to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for Whatever

[Hilary Frank]

hey, it's Hilary Frank from the Longest Shortest Time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and of course, kids of all ages. But you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest, shortest time is for you, find us in any podcast app [e-mail].

[Mike Carruthers]

Isn't it interesting how we often put ourselves last? We say yes when we want to say no. We prioritize what others need, what others expect, what others want. And somehow our own priorities keep getting pushed down, down the list. At first it feels like we're being helpful, even generous. But over time, it can start to cost you. It can cost your time, your energy, even your sense of who you are. So why do we do this? Why is it so hard to give ourselves permission to do what we actually want or need to do? If this sounds familiar, you're going to want to hear this. My guest is Dr. George James. He's a licensed therapist and corporate consultant who's been featured on the Today Show, CBS Mornings, and in the New York Times. He's author of a book called I Give Myself Permission. Take Risks, Be Imperfect, Live Boldly. Hey George. Welcome. So why? Why is it so hard for us to give ourselves permission and Put ourselves first sometimes.

[Dr. George James]

What I've noticed, fortunately, through my work as a therapist, as a speaker, I've been all over the country, I've talked to so many people and I think I started to see this really around the pandemic where I people were struggling and making life changes and choices. And I saw that so many people put themselves lower on the list. They put everything and everyone else higher that they don't necessarily give themselves permission. Some people are looking for someone else to give them permission. Some people just put limits on themselves and what they think is possible. And it's not that they just flip a switch and give themselves permission and it's all over, but that they have to actually go through a mental process to look at what are the barriers, what are the challenges, what are the blocks that are keeping them from giving themselves permission to really live in a more fulfilling life or even just putting themselves higher on the list to practice self care or do the thing that they really want to do, but somehow have been telling themselves no.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, sometimes it seems we, we don't give ourselves permission to do something because we don't want to appear foolish. We don't want to try something that we really probably don't think we can really accomplish. And you know, it's just better to play it safe.

[Dr. George James]

I completely agree that a lot of times we want to play safe and for sometimes for good reason, right? Maybe we tried at one point and it didn't work out and we're impacted by that or and it's a negative feeling or sometimes it's our anxiety, the fear of like what if, as you mentioned, I appear foolish or what if it doesn't work out? Or the, the, the thought that we have to be right, that it's okay to be imperfect. It's okay to maybe like for it not always to work out exactly the way we plan. And that in itself is scary and overwhelming. But sometimes we learn the biggest lessons about ourselves, about the people we care about, about the things that we're trying to do. So. So yeah, it is playing it safe sometimes it is staying in the lane that we've been taught. And one of the things I really try to highlight is that there are these narratives that we believe about ourself and narratives that have been told to us. And these narratives are shaped in our households, in our communities, in our society in lots of different ways about who you are and who you should be and who you should not be. But all those things are not always true. And that is a place where we can push back and give ourselves permission.

[Mike Carruthers]

So give me an example of that. Like what. What are the kinds of things people have come to believe about themselves that. That may not be true?

[Dr. George James]

There. There are lots of moms that I've interacted with that just feel like things just have to be perfect. And some of it is because they might know if I don't do it, it's not going to happen. Or I'm thinking about this more or first, and I need to do this for my household or for my children and. But yet might not take the time for themselves or think that they. They can read the book that they wanted to read or start an organization or business. They feel like they have to do so many things, and it's overwhelming. And. And the story has been, if I don't do that, I'm not a good mom. In my own life, it was learning multiple things, like thinking about affection, that I learned from my family. In particular the affection between my father and I. I realized when I was in. In grad school that there wasn't that there. And I saw my dad, My cousin, actually kiss my father on the cheek. And I was blown by. By this. And it made me think about, wait, do I even kiss my father? And so I went through this process of saying to myself, I'm gonna kiss my father. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do it. It was a big production in my head because the story was, you don't do that. That's not right. There's something wrong with that. Two men don't do that. Like, all these things of growing up, of thinking these things that were really false, but I held and I didn't realize it until the day when I did actually kiss my father. And it was a. The story is, I dropped him off the airport, and I was going to do it and just run because for whatever reason, I was so nervous about this, and I missed his cheek and kissed him on the ear. And so. But after that, though, I kissed him every day until my father died. And it is something that has stuck with me because now I show affection to my own children. And so the stories we tell ourselves about who you are, what you can do, what you shouldn't do, based off of all the different parts and roles we play in our life, sometimes they're true, but sometimes they're not. And we have to examine it so that we can give ourselves permission.

[Mike Carruthers]

I love that story. That's a great story, because I think every man has struggled with that. Because when you're A little kid, you kiss your father, but there comes a day where that just isn't done anymore. And you think, well, why can't we show affection as adults? What's that about? And why is it wrong? And as you pointed out, the world didn't stop and the sun didn't explode when you kissed him on the ear. And then you did it every day. I love that.

[Dr. George James]

Yeah. No, and, and I share that because it's so meaningful for me, because that shifted my connection with my father and our affection that we share. And then it shifted how I show affection to my own children. Like they know because I tell the story, but without that, they wouldn't know the difference. That was a shift in my own family because I had to go through the process, do the work, and, and then give myself permission. And now it's a norm. It's a complete difference from what used to be to what it is. And I think that's what people can do. Whether it is about showing affection or whether it's taking time for yourself, practicing self care, spending time with a child or grandchild, there's so many areas that I think we can give ourselves permission that we don't.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, I'm just curious if you remember this from that experience. Like, what were you worried would happen that was holding you back? What did you think might go wrong?

[Dr. George James]

So to give some context, I grew up in a time and a frame where the thought of showing affection to another man, that that would mean something about sexuality and sexual orientation, which it doesn't. And also coming from a cultural context where my family's Jamaican through thinking that, like, that's just, just not what you do. So all these different things. So I was worried that maybe he would be unhappy or disapprove or maybe that I was doing something wrong and all of that was false. And that's what happens for many of us. We create these stories and narratives about whatever the thing is that we're trying to give ourselves permission to do about what we think can happen or should happen. And oftentimes it's false until we actually take up the enough courage or get enough support to actually do it. Realize, yeah, it might be challenging, but not the way we thought. Like you said, the sun didn't explode and he didn't even say anything. And it was now became a normal part of our relationship.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it's a risk. And if you didn't take the risk, life would have gone on as usual and nobody would have noticed and nobody would have cared but you. But and so that's the easy way out. And I think that's what most of us do, is we just like, it's just not worth the risk.

[Dr. George James]

Yeah. I think, you know, and many people are. Can be at different sides of the risk tolerance. Right. How much can they tolerate some type of risk versus not. And, but it is a risk. It's an emotional risk. It's even a part of us that says, like, well, if this goes wrong, what will that mean? And we say that in so many different parts of our lives. But how many times when we take that risk, does it actually. We learn from it or we grow from it, or the great experience comes from it? I think many times. I'm not saying that we should always take the biggest risk, but I think when we do take some risk or put ourselves in uncomfortable places or really kind of push ourselves, we can see so many great things that can come from it. Even if it's not the intended goal, there's usually some growth that will come from it.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, and I think another concern is, which always fascinates me is we worry what other people will think. We just. We're so afraid that people will judge us. And my experience is that nobody cares. Nobody cares about you. They're all worried about them.

[Dr. George James]

Yeah, no, I agree. I think. And look, our world is that we do judge and we do critique and we do have thoughts. I mean, that's part of what we sometimes do with social media. Now, look, there's some really great things about social media, and there are also some really hard and difficult things about social media. We compare and we judge and then we hear about other people. So then we say, oh, that's what's going to happen to me. But to your point, no, we don't. We don't really always care about what someone else is doing or. Or it doesn't even matter. Right. Like, at the end of the day, if I realize that the amount of time I'm spending at work or the meetings, you know, the thing I also say also is that, you know, sometimes we'll say like, oh, all right, yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna have that family time. I'm gonna spend dinner with them. I'm gonna play with my child or grandchild. I just gotta do one more email. I just have one more meeting. But it's never one more email. It's never one more meeting. We take up that time and all of a sudden we miss the moments. We don't take the risk of saying, let me not show up. For this meeting or let me pause that email for later. Let me just sit on the floor and have a good time and laugh and enjoy the people that are around me. Even that is a risk that sometimes we don't take.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, I can imagine listening to you and thinking, you know, okay, this sounds great, you know, I should kiss my father. But I don't know how to. I don't know how to start this. I don't know where to begin because it's so much. It's so much easier to leave things the way they are. So where do I get the push to take the risk and start doing these things? It's great to talk about it, but doing it, that's tough.

[Dr. George James]

It is. The doing is hard. And I encourage people to start with the thing that maybe has been coming up for you. I've been telling people that this year. The thing that's been coming up for me is salsa. Salsa dancing in particular. I grew up where some of my friends are amazing dancers. And the thing that I remember is looking at a couple that were in their 70s and 80s and just seeing them just dance and look so, so amazing and beautiful. And like, that's just been coming up for me. So you start with the thought, the thing that comes up for you. Then you think about what is the first step that you can take? Well, for me, with salsa dancing, it's been, well, acknowledging that's something that I really want to do. Acknowledge it to yourself, be honest with yourself. Then the next step is, well, what thing can you do to get closer to it? Well, I have to look up, where can I take lessons? So you start small. You know, you don't have to, like, jump in the deep end. And oftentimes we are not going to be able to give ourselves permission by ourselves. We will need support and help. You might need a coach, you might need a trainer, you might need a salsa dancer instructor. You might need something that will get you there and that helps you in the doing. And when you get stuck, that's what we really review. What is the narrative and story you're telling yourself that keeps you stuck? Is it that I think I look foolish? Is it I think that I'm going to fall? Is it a thing that I don't think I'm good enough? What are the thoughts that come up that keep you stuck and you want to review that and get some help, maybe even professional help to deal with it?

[Mike Carruthers]

In what other ways might we take risks that maybe we haven't thought much about?

[Dr. George James]

I even Encourage people to take risks from an emotional place. Like to take the risk, to forgive. Like, that's, that's a huge emotional undertaking. And like you said, we could just keep going on with our life and no one would know. But the thought of, like the emotional pain that I have because of that situation or because I didn't forgive, I could live a different life if I just take that risk. That's really what it's about.

[Mike Carruthers]

One of the things that I have found that I work into my life is that I have the advantage of the view that I don't want to regret not doing it. That there will come a day if I don't do it. I'll look back and wonder, what if? And I don't want that. That's the worst feeling in the world that I, to me, I just. So I'd rather give it a shot usually than not, just because I don't want that. What if? Regret.

[Dr. George James]

Mike, I think I'm pretty similar, that there's a lot of parts of me that even when I examine. Oh, my immediate thought is I don't know if I could do that or maybe other people do that better or whatever it is I still end up with. I'm going to be willing to try. And I think I also want to take this moment to acknowledge that many of us do have real life obstacles and barriers. There's some people who can say, look, yeah, I do want to go back to college and get that degree, but I. I don't have the time or resources. Well, maybe you can take that one course and take one course for that semester and it might take you a few years, but in taking that one course per semester, every semester for a years, you do get to that goal. Last year, the thing that came up for us was like we were going to try to learn to ski because our children ski. And it's not something I did growing up. It's not something I even thought I could do growing up. My wife and I took some lessons. I didn't want to do it because I didn't want to fall on my butt. I didn't want to. I didn't want to have. I didn't really want to get injured. And I did it. And at the end of it I was like, you know, this is great, but I don't know if I want to continue doing this. You can take the risk or give yourself permission and realize that's not the thing for you, but at least you know you tried it.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, at least, you know you tried it, there's a lot of, there's a lot of comfort in that, that you, you know, you tried it and it, you would, you know, I used to do, years ago, I, I tried stand up comedy and, and I was pretty good at it. I, I wasn't bad, but I just didn't like the lifestyle, so I gave it up. But if I hadn't tried it, I would always wonder, I wonder if I could have really made it. I wonder if I would have really been good at that. And I know now that that wasn't for me. But if I didn't try it, I would have never known.

[Dr. George James]

And that's the point, right? That moment in your mind and in lots of our minds, should I do it? Can I do it? I don't know if I'm going to be good at it or I know I could be good at it, but I don't have the time for it. All those things that get in the way and, but the moment you said, you know what, I'm going to try it, I'm going to do it. I'm going to find a place where I'm going to show up or maybe learn how to do it or put myself up there, sign up for it, all those things. And now in doing it, you're like, oh, this other thing, I didn't realize the lifestyle. I wouldn't have known fully about the lifestyle if I didn't experience it. And now I can make a different decision.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I certainly understand the dilemma of wanting to take a risk, but if you don't, there's no real bad consequence other than, you know, you live with the fact that you never did it. But you know what I mean, if you had never kissed your father, yeah, it would have bothered you maybe, but nobody would have noticed and life would go on. So it's pretty easy to maintain the status quo. And yet you didn't. You took a risk, but you could have not. And then it wouldn't be a story to tell, but there'd be another story to tell.

[Dr. George James]

Yeah. And you know, Mike, what I realized that especially even why I love telling that story and why it's so meaningful for me, because it has filled me with lots of different aspects of purpose. Right. Like being able to kiss my father allowed me to, to feel connected to my father, and then has allowed me to feel connected to my daughter and son, but has also allowed me to be authentic when I talk about relationships, has also allowed me to say, like, yeah, it might not be hard for you, but that was Hard for me, and I found a way to get there. And so even though, yes, I could go on, and if I never did that, because there are things that probably I didn't get to, I never did or might not do in my life, this being able to give myself permission to actually do it has fueled me in other places on my life that I would not have known. I wouldn't have known that it would have been in a book. I wouldn't have known that it would have been a story. I would have known that it would have been a way that I can encourage other people until I did it. And so I think there's some things that, yes, it is just maybe for us, or I give the example of, like, playing with her child or grandchild, you don't realize that time that you spend with the people that you love, how important that is for them and for you and the work you might do and your creativity and your productivity, it fuels so many different parts of your life. But if you don't do it, you could end up moody, cranky, sad, overwhelmed, depressed for something that is really, in one level, small, but actually a big thing.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, well, when you do those little things, it gives you courage and strength to maybe try something else. Like, you could say, well, you know, I did that thing where I kissed my father, and it was great. So, you know, maybe I need to do more of that. It's a little encouragement to move on to the next one.

[Dr. George James]

It. It's a. It's a snowball effect, right? Like, one thing, it just keeps rolling into the next thing. And. And to your point of, like, not having regret, like, I could say, like, I had that moment. All right, so to go even further, my father died in 2016. Now, you know, almost fully, almost full 10 years ago. What if I didn't do that? There could be a part of me that would regret or wonder what that next level of connection could be with my father. And life shifts and changes, and we don't know when that might happen. And so I'm not saying that we should live out of fear of something bad happening, but the thought of, like, I was able to say, like, I. I'm grateful that I had that experience with my father and how that has shifted, because I could have missed it. I'm grateful for the conversations I've had with people. I'm grateful for the place I've been able to support people.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I really love this message of give yourself permission. And the story about your father illustrates it so perfectly. I appreciate you sharing it. Dr. George James has been my guest. He is a therapist, a corporate consultant, and author of the book I Give Myself Permission, Take Risks, Be Imperfect, Live Boldly. And there is a link to that book in the show notes. George, great. This was perfect. Thank you.

[Dr. George James]

Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much for the opportunity and for the questions and the conversation.

[Mike Carruthers]

Have you ever been driving and almost had an accident? Or maybe you did have an accident with a motorcycle or a bicycle and said, I never saw it, I didn't see it. It came out of nowhere. It sounds like an excuse, but it's actually a known phenomenon. Researchers call it looked but failed to see. Your eyes can look right at a motorcycle and a bicycle and your brain doesn't fully register it. Why? Because motorcycles and bicycles are smaller and less visually obvious and harder to judge for speed and distance. And your brain is scanning for bigger objects like cars and can literally overlook what it's not expecting. That's why one of the most common serious motorcycle crashes happens when a car turns left, right in front of an oncoming motorcycle or bike. The driver didn't ignore it, they just didn't see it. So the next time you check for traffic, don't just look. Look specifically for motorcycles and bikes. And that is something you should know. I bet you know people that would enjoy this podcast. Sure you do. And if you would tell them about it, they would appreciate it and so would we because it helps us grow our audience, which we really like. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. I know you like interesting and thought provoking conversations and ideas because you listen to something you should know. So let me recommend another podcast I know you will enjoy. It's the Jordan Harbinger Show. Jordan has a real talent for getting his guests to share stories and offer thought provoking insights. Over the years I've sent a lot of people to listen and I get feedback from people who are so glad I introduced them to the Jordan Harbinger Show. Recently. He discussed Scientology and the children who are raised in that organization. It's a fascinating conversation and he talked with Dr. Rhonda Patrick about how to protect your mind and body from the modern world. And it's tougher than you think. I've gotten to know Jordan pretty well. We talk frequently and I tell you he is a very smart, insightful guy who does a hell of a podcast. Check out the Jordan Harbinger show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Hilary Frank]

Hey, it's Hilary Frank from the Longest Shortest Time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. There is so much going on right now in the world of reproductive health and we're covering it all. Birth control, pregnancy, gender, bodily autonomy, menopause, consent, sperm. So many stories about sperm. And of course, the joys and absurdities of raising kids of all ages. If you're new to the show, check out an episode called the Staircase. It's a personal story of mine about trying to get my kids to school to teach sex ed. Spoiler. I get it to happen, but not at all in the way that I wanted. We also talk to plenty of non parents so you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the Longest, shortest time is for you, find us in any podcast app [e-mail].