Mike Carruthers (3:07)

Can use in your life today.

Amir Raz (3:10)

Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome. Thank you for spending some time today listening to Something you should Know. And we start today with something I know you've heard of handwriting analysis. It's been used as evidence in court trials and actually helps send people to jail. But is it really a science? Well, first you have to understand there are two types of handwriting analysis. Forensic handwriting analysis is when an expert testifies that two signatures were made by the same person or that a signature is a forgery or not. Stuff like that. It sounds simple enough, but two Supreme Court cases, one in 1993 and one in 2001, have cast grave doubts on the validity of handwriting analysis. You see, there's no standardized way of testing and any analysis appears to be completely subjective. One study compared experts, so called handwriting experts, with average people in analyzing handwriting samples, and the experts did no better than average people and both groups were wrong 52% of the time. Now graphology, that's something else. That's where someone tries to figure out a person's personality based on their handwriting. In France, employers often use this, or used to anyway, as part of their screening process for new employees. But there's no evidence, none, that this has any validity to it. In fact, one of the basic principles of handwriting analysis that, like fingerprints, everyone's handwriting is unique, has never been proven. It just doesn't appear that your handwriting has very much to say about you except for the words you actually write. And that is something you should know. How do wealthy people get wealthy? It's an important question and there's no simple one answer. And a lot of the advice on getting wealthy is somebody's opinion. But today I want you to hear some of the very best wealth advice I think you'll ever hear that's based on research and looks at how most wealthy people acquire their wealth. Sure, there are TikTok stars and tech billionaires and sports superstars and you can try to go that route. But there are more reliable ways to build wealth. Brad Klontz is here to tell you about them. Brad is a financial psychologist whose work has been featured in USA Today, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and Washington Post, and he's been a guest here before as well. He is co author of a book called start thinking 21 harsh truths to take you from broke to financial freedom. Hey, Brad, good to have you back.

Brad Klontz (6:05)

Thanks for having me.

Amir Raz (6:06)

So I think if you were to ask most people what makes a wealthy person wealthy, the answer is money. That it's about your cash, your net worth, your whatever money measurement you want to use. Wealthy people have a lot of money. So what is wealth to you?

Brad Klontz (6:23)

For me, it's when you own as much of your time as possible. Time is your most valuable resource. It's not about material items. As a matter of fact, I think many people are, I would consider, quote, poor with regard to all the material items they have because essentially they have to keep funding those items and paying for those. And so it can keep them stuck in situations that aren't ideal for them.

Amir Raz (6:49)

When you talk about owning your time or owning more of your time, it starts to sound a little like retirement. Like you don't have to work. So now you have all this time that you're trying to get more time to play golf or do whatever you want, but that's not what you're talking about.

Brad Klontz (7:07)

I actually think that retirement is for dead people. So it's not about not working. Because what is work? Work is essentially activity designed to pursue a purpose or result. And so I feel like it's a big mistake to think that sitting on the beach and sipping Mai Tais is going to lead to a lifetime of happiness, because that's not usually the case. But for me, it's about flexibility. There's a. When you talk to people and you really get down to it, many people aren't entirely satisfied with their 9 to 5 jobs, or they're looking to pursue a passion or a purpose that's beyond what their company or their boss is telling them to do each day. And so I think it's ideal to spend your time making money doing things you're passionate about. But I think that most people, if they were really honest with themselves, would prefer to own more and more of their time. Not that they would just sit around, but that they could pursue things that are the most fulfilling for them.

Amir Raz (8:08)

I don't know the statistics, but my guess is that most people don't consider themselves wealthy. So why not? Where do people go wrong?

Brad Klontz (8:18)

Well, I think part of the reason that I talk about wealth the way I do is because I see so many people go wrong by buying stuff to try to make them feel better themselves, feel better to try to impress others and show their status. And then they later wake up and realize that they. They can't, quote, retire or they can't have more of their time. To spend with the people they love because they've essentially been misinformed around how people get wealthy and how wealthy people spend their money. And so that's been a big part of my research and my educational efforts are trying to teach people what we have discovered in the research around how people become wealthy and how wealthy people typically spend their money. Because as a culture, we've got it all wrong.

Amir Raz (9:02)

And so how do we get it right? What's the formula?

Brad Klontz (9:06)

Yeah, so essentially the concept of owning more and more of your time is crucial because what we, what we think is when we buy more stuff, then we've made it. That's actually not the case. And so the average millionaire, for example, in the United States is self made. And most of them are employees and professionals. They're not necessarily entrepreneurs. As a matter of fact, you know, entrepreneurship is a great way to lose money. It's a dangerous way to try to get money. And I'm pro entrepreneurship. But just understand that most people are getting there and meeting their financial goals because they're saving and investing a percentage of every dollar they make. And when you do study the mindset of these self made, wealthier people, they tend to describe themselves as frugal. So interestingly, they are more likely to downplay outward displays of wealth, which makes sense when you think about what it takes to become wealthy, which is essentially not spending your money or at least all of it, and then saving and investing some of it.

Amir Raz (10:05)

Well, it's interesting how sometimes people are who have a lot of money are described as kind of cheap. Like, gosh, he's got so much money and he never spends any of it. Well, that's probably why he has so much money, because he never spends any of it.

Brad Klontz (10:19)

That's right. And you know, I think the United States is fairly unique in the amount of consumerism and materialism that we suffer from. And I'm reminded of birthdays when you're a kid. And it's like we're sort of obsessed with getting this really cool toy because we think it's going to make us the coolest kid on the block and it's to make us happy and we're going to immerse ourselves in the joyful experience and then a week or two later you've kind of forgot about it. And the problem with that mindset, which is basically how we're wired as human beings, is that in adulthood it loses its luster relatively quickly. But then you're stuck with the credit card bill that can go on for months and Months and months and keep you from really achieving that financial freedom that so many of us crave.

Amir Raz (11:05)

So what are the things wealthy people do? What do they have in common that poor people don't do? What is the roadmap to wealth?

Brad Klontz (11:15)

Yeah, and so when I talk about poor, I differentiate that from broke, because poor for me is a mindset. You can have a poor mindset and make a bunch of money and you just blow it all and you have a very low net worth. You can be broke and have a rich mindset and be well on your way to financial freedom and success. And so there's a lot of things and there's a lot of mindset differences. You know, one is spending habits. So one of the studies that we conducted, we looked at people at 11 million in net worth and we compared them to a group, group of people that had 500,000 in net worth. And then we asked them how much money they had spent on their last house, vacation, watch and car. And what was shocking is that these people in the ultra wealthy group had like 20 times more money, but they only spent twice as much on those things, which is really, really sort of surprising. I was surprised when I saw that research I, I had. I knew that they were frugal based on surveys, but I was like, really like, because you would, you would expect mathematically it'd be 20 times as much. So that's one is they just don't spend the way we think they spend. And social media is just setting so many of us up to feel deprived and give us a false narrative around how wealthy people behave. And since we want to be them, we'd go spend in ways that they actually don't. Another thing is that in psychology that has been studied a lot is locus of control. And so the people who are the most successful in life, financially, income, net worth, doing best, better in school, doing better at work, better relationships have what we call in psychology an internal locus of control. And so that means where is the location of control in your life when you think of the outcomes you're getting in life? And the wealthier, more successful people have this internal locus of control. So they're looking at, you know, I'm getting a certain salary, for example, and perhaps I'm not happy with it. Well, whose fault is it or who has the power to change that? And external locus control would say, well, it's my boss, it's the economy, it's the unfair system we're in. And by the way, you can find all sorts of examples to prove that, right. If that's your mindset, an internal locus of control says, well, maybe I need to negotiate a better raise. Maybe I'm working in an environment where I'm not being appreciated. Maybe I am not working hard enough. Maybe I need to let my boss know all that I'm doing and I'm not a good, I'm not doing enough marketing of myself. So it's really that mindset that we've studied many, many times that is very consistent across the board with people who tend to have better results.

Amir Raz (13:46)

So when you say that people who are wealthy are frugal, what does that mean? Like, are they using coupons at the grocery store? Are they going to the early bird dinner before 4? Like, what does frugal mean?

Brad Klontz (14:01)

So sometimes it is annoyingly frugal and people will complain about it. Um, but really it, it comes down to another rich mindset that we, we found in research and by the way, over a hundred thousand people we've done studies on and it's called money vigilance. And so it is very specific beliefs around money that they tend to have. Beliefs like it's important to save for a rainy day. What, what's sort of surprising is the number of people who don't believe that very strongly. I'd be a nervous wreck if I didn't have enough money saved for an emergency. If people ask me how much I made, I'd probably tell them I make less than I do. There's this, there's this mindset towards, I have a clear vision of the future and I have financial goals. And so I'm willing to do what it takes right now in terms of cutting back, managing my money very closely paying attention to it. There's some vigilance associated with it that is very much associated with higher income and higher net worth, higher net worth moving forward. And I'm sort of reminded of a squirrel who's, you know, if a squirrel's not very nervous about the approaching winter, they're not going to spend all this time gathering nuts and hiding them. And they'll probably end up starving as a result.

Amir Raz (15:11)

We're talking about building wealth and the wealth mindset. My guest is Brad Klontz. He is author of the book Start Thinking Rich. Dell Technologies Black Friday event is live. And if you've been waiting for an AI ready PC, this is their biggest sale of the year. Tech enthusiasts love this sale because it's all the newest hits, plus all the greatest hits all on sale at once. Savings on Dell technologies most popular PCs that accelerate AI with Intel Core Ultra processors are here like the XPS 16. So if you're ready to step up all the things you like to do, streaming, surfing, multitasking, whatever Dell technologies AI ready PCs are the perfect upgrade. And for the best of Intel Core Ultra processors, look for Intel Evo edition laptops engineered to do it all. Just visit Dell.com deals whether you're treating yourself or thinking of others, these Black Friday prices were worth the wait. But it's only for a limited time. Shop now at Dell.com/deals. The new Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist. And it's the fastest charging Apple watch getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. Introducing the all new Apple Watch Series 10 now available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generation, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. So Brad, in a real practical way, what does this look like? Like how much are you supposed to save? What is it you're aiming for? Because the idea of owning more of your time, I get that, but I don't get what the steps are to get there.

Brad Klontz (17:13)

Essentially it is this. Every dollar that comes into my life, a percentage of that I am setting aside for my financial freedom, that could be in an IRA, it could be in a 401k. I mean it, you know, that is actually much less important than this mindset. And so if people could get this when they're 10, 12 years old, they will be multi, they'll be millionaires for sure. You could work in a fast food job, for example, for your entire life and be a millionaire by retirement age. If you have this mindset, it's probably the most critical mindset and the earlier you have it, the better. Every dollar that comes into my life, a percentage of it, I'm saving and investing. Now what percent? Well that really does depend on, you know, how wealthy you want to become and how fast you want to become wealthy. So the standard financial advice is 10% of your income. I always shot for 30%. There's an entire group of people, it's called the fire movement, which is financial independence. Retire early. These people try to put aside 50% of their income or more because they want to achieve that freedom faster. So essentially it's that mindset that I think is really, really important. And Mike, what is so fascinating about this is that in my grandparents generation you didn't have to have this mindset because the government was going to take care of you with Social Security, your company was going to pay your pension. All that has shifted. Like, there's. There are. A lot of us are afraid there won't be Social Security companies have offloaded their liability of funding your retirement, and now it's, you have to contribute to do it out of your own salary. And maybe they do a match, maybe they don't. So essentially, our entire culture has shifted in the last few decades to put it entirely on the shoulders of us as individuals. Yet so many of us are sleeping on this because we weren't taught it.

Amir Raz (18:59)

And that's, you know, that's one of the things that kids aren't taught much about how to handle money. And if you're, if no one ever teaches you and you have to learn by, you know, trial by fire, and, and with all the temptation in the world, it's very easy not to know what to do and just go, you know, screw it and throw down the plastic and buy whatever you want and end up in trouble.

Brad Klontz (19:23)

That's absolutely right. And, and that is a mindset that we have found comes from real life circumstances with, with this sort of like, there'll never be enough money, so why bother trying? And the unfortunate part is, like, I learned this relatively late in life. I grew up, lower income. And, you know, the biggest factor in terms of wealth building is time, too. Like, you can put aside a lot less if you start earlier and achieve the same goal than if you wait 10 or 15 or 20 years. Now you're having to set aside 10 times the amount of money each month to try to hit a retirement goal. So it's. The earlier we do it, the faster we put it in place, the easier it will be for us.

Amir Raz (20:04)

One of the things that people, I've heard people say is, well, but I own my home and it keeps going up in value, and if I sell it, you know, I'll be a millionaire.

Brad Klontz (20:15)

Yes. So homeownership is a really interesting topic. You know, one of the worst things I see on social media are all these, like, misinformation. Like, I hear things on, like, college isn't worth it anymore. And so as a scientist, I go. Is that right? So I go research and I'm like, oh, nope. Turns out it still is. The average college grad makes about a million and a half more during their lifetime. And now there's a new meme that it's better to rent than it is to buy. And I understand the math on it because because the argument is that if you rent, you're going to pay less in f because of phantom costs and all this homeownership stuff. And then if you just invest all that, the rest of that money, you'll perhaps be better off 20, 30 years from now. People don't invest the other money. So the great thing about a house is it's a bit of a forced savings, and it's great for net worth, but it's also not. It's. It's also, what are you going to do with that net worth? You know, maybe you can cash out when you sell, but where are you going to? You're going to have to go find another place to live. And all the other houses in your neighborhood have got up in price, but.

Amir Raz (21:14)

As you get older, you can downsize, you can sell your big house, move to a little house and pocket the difference.

Brad Klontz (21:21)

That's right. And that's what a lot of Americans do, which is why it's like upwards of 90% of millionaires in the United States are homeowners. So I think it's a really great goal because part of that element, too, of like, you're going to pay your mortgage every month, and so part of that mortgage is going to go towards building your net worth. And if you didn't have that expense, for most Americans, the money's just going to disappear because people don't have very clear financial goals. And I'll mention this too, because I think it's probably one of the biggest hacks. And we did a study on this, and we got people to increase their savings as a percentage of income by 73% just after doing this for about an hour. So I'd love to share it with you. Essentially what we had people do is get a very clear and exciting vision of their top three financial goals. And when I say vision, we had them close their eyes and picture this thing. Is it a house? Is it retirement? Well, what are you doing in retirement? Is it a college fund? How does it feel letting you know? Having money to send your kid or grandkid to college got people really excited about it. We actually had them create visual images. So, like vision boards, you can imagine. And what we saw when people got really excited and could taste it, that's kind of what you need to do. You need to be able to taste it and feel it right now, because that's how we're wired. We want to consume now. And then what we had people do is set up separate accounts named after those goals. And then this is probably the most important part. Now you're all excited. You got a clear vision of the goal. Then you automate. So you take money that's coming in your checking account and you automatically deposit a certain dollar amount to these goals. Maybe it's your paycheck to your 401k, maybe it's a college savings fund, maybe it's a European vacation savings fund. Whatever it is that money gets, gets sent to those financial goals before anything else. We call it paying it. You're paying yourself first in personal finance, and then it's automated so you never have to revisit it. So it capitalizes on the status quo bias, which is basically, we like, we'll just keep things the way they are because it takes too much energy to change it. And we saw an incredible, massive shift for these people by just going through that exercise.

Amir Raz (23:33)

Yeah, that sounds. And that sounds so right. In fact, I remember someone saying, maybe it was you before, about how naming accounts is a big deal. Like if you just are putting money into a savings account and it's all very vague, but if you have a new house account, that somehow that brings it alive and it makes it more desirable and more easy to picture it and really, you know, make the effort.

Brad Klontz (24:06)

That's right. And when you do see money in a checking account, I fall prey to this myself. I'm arguably one of the world's leading experts. And it happens to me when I see money in the checking account, I have this sense of like, oh, yeah, we've got some money. And so then I'm more inclined to spend more, frankly. And so what I like to do is take that money immediately, move it out into these larger, more important goals. Because the bottom line is, when I'm staring at one of my son's names is Ethan. When I'm staring at Ethan's college savings fund, I am not going to go steal from that for something that matters less to me, like any other purchase, frankly, you know, because I have an emotional attachment. That's what's so powerful about naming those accounts, because you're actually protecting that money because you've set it aside on something that really, really matters to you.

Amir Raz (24:57)

So I imagine there are people listening to this saying, okay, but wait, you know, wouldn't that be great if I could make all these accounts and put all this money aside, but I wouldn't have enough money left over to pay the bills, and I'm not living extravagantly. It's just, life is expensive.

Brad Klontz (25:16)

Maybe you can't do 10% of your income but you can invest a dollar this month. And if you commit to investing a dollar this month for your top three financial goals and you put those systems in place, they will be there for you the next time you get some unexpected money, perhaps a raise, perhaps a bonus. You know, we tend to trend in an upward direction in terms of our income as we get older. And so putting those things in place, even if it's a dollar, even it's 1% of your income, if you can start taking action there, I know for a fact you'll be able to do 2%, 3%, eventually you'll get up to a much higher percentage by putting that in place.

Amir Raz (25:59)

The other side of the coin of saving and investing, which can be hard, is you can also find ways to make more money. And I know that's a part of your whole pitch.

Brad Klontz (26:10)

It's never been an easier time to have side hustles to increase your income. And I'll give you a quick example. My son, 11 years old, wanted a job and you know, he wanted to do a car wash, wanted to do a lemonade stand. All this stuff that quite frankly is annoying for me as a father to put in practice and make the neighbors feel guilty. So I was thinking, well, are there other ways he can make money? And sure enough, there's, I'll just give you the specifics. There's a bunch of these that we talk about, but you can review products on Amazon. And so this last month, he made 60 videos in his spare time as an 11 year old. And he's, he made about $5,000 this month, which sounds insane and it is kind of crazy, but there's all these opportunities around us. And it didn't, he's 11, you know, I mean, so. And he's learned how to make videos and edit videos and all this stuff that he does on the weekends instead of being on his iPad the entire time. And so I think there are a lot of opportunities to increase your income if you don't want to make all the hard cuts that are painful that nobody really likes to make. It took some learning, had to figure out how to do it, had to, you know, but this is an opportunity that's quite frankly available to everybody right now.

Amir Raz (27:23)

I really like this advice because it's so doable and I love the fact that you pointed out that most people, most millionaires today are not, you know, the superstar tech millionaires. They're professionals, they're working people who just have the right mindset and automate things. So the money just goes where it needs to go and anybody can do it. I've been speaking with Brad Klontz. He is a financial psychologist and author of the book start thinking 21 harsh truths to take you from broke to financial freedom. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for coming on again, Brad. This was great.

Brad Klontz (28:02)

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Mike Carruthers (28:05)

Future you faces some big expectations.

Amir Raz (28:08)

Work out more, go to bed earlier.

Mike Carruthers (28:10)

And most importantly, make smart money decisions.

Amir Raz (28:13)

Thankfully, today you has bank of America.

Brad Klontz (28:17)

One place with tools and guidance to help balance tasks from budgeting to saving.

Amir Raz (28:21)

So you can just be you with big plans.

Mike Carruthers (28:24)

Do more with a bank that asks what would you like the power to do?

Brad Klontz (28:27)

Explore our tips and more@bankofamerica.com futureyou.

Amir Raz (28:35)

You can get the most important meal of the day any time of day. I'm Talking about the $5 big deal breakfast meal from Jack in the Box, available all day and all night. A breakfast Jack with a freshly cracked egg, a hash brown and French toast sticks for five bucks. Sounds good for breakfast, lunch and dinner at Jack. Every bite's a big deal. Order Jack's five dollar Big Deal Breakfast meal now. The power of suggestion. It can make mediocre food or wine taste fabulous. Suggestion can alter your memory of an event. It can convince you to buy something you had no intention of buying. It can make you feel better if you're sick. It can make you sick if you're feeling better. The placebo effect is all about the power of suggestion. But how does it work? Why does it work? Are some people immune to the power of suggestion? Here with some insight into this fascinating topic is Amir Raz. He is a neuroscientist and renowned expert on the science of suggestion. He's author of a book called the Suggestible the Science and Magic of How We Make Up Our Minds. Hi Amir. Welcome to something you should know.

Mike Carruthers (29:54)

Thank you very much, Mike. Great to be here.

Amir Raz (29:57)

Well, I love this topic because everyone, I think everyone has had some experience with the power of suggestion generally. I bet we're more susceptible to suggestion than we realize or wish we were. And I don't think we really understand how it works. Is that a fair statement?

Mike Carruthers (30:16)

It's a fair statement. And I can tell you that if you think that you're excited about suggestion. I've been dedicating the better part of more than three decades of my life to study suggestion and to understand the brain mechanisms and the psychology and the sociology of it. So it's definitely an exciting field of study and it's completely applied to our everyday and every moment life. Absolutely.

Amir Raz (30:41)

So let's first talk about. Because suggestion takes many forms. I would assume you would agree with that, that it's not just people making suggestions to you, it's who's saying it, it's how they're saying it, it's what they're saying. So talk about the world, the landscape of suggestion.

Mike Carruthers (30:58)

Yeah, I mean, first of all, there's no question that suggestion comes in many shapes, many colors, many forms. There are many types of suggestions. Of course, it's not just the question of who's making the suggestion. It's also the question of the when of the context that the suggestion is made. And it's also a question of whether you're even aware that the suggestion is being made. Suggestions can be made outside of our awareness. Suggestions can be made about us, about others. Suggestions can have all kinds of ulterior agendas and unspoken reasons behind them. Sometimes suggestions are meant to sway our behavior or affect us in some way. Sometimes the suggestions are meant to help us. Sometimes they're meant to hurt us. Suggestion is a very tricky field because we are aware of turn of phrase, or if you want, in terms of art, like the power of suggestion. Everybody hears about the power of suggestion, but very few people know what suggestion actually is or what we mean when we say suggestion. And very few people know the science behind suggestion and how we can leverage suggestion to both influence people and their behaviors and how we can protect ourselves and avoid the effect of certain suggestions.

Amir Raz (32:13)

So the science of suggestion is what does that mean? What is the science? What do you study when you study the science of suggestion?

Mike Carruthers (32:21)

The science of suggestion is basically an umbrella term for understanding how factors such as expectation effects, motivation, placebo effects, hypnosis, and other situations such as context, how do they influence people's decision making, people's voting behavior, people's ability to observe certain things, if it's through perception, through sensation, if it's their pain thresholds, and so on and so forth. So this can affect your enjoyment from a meal at a restaurant, if I make certain suggestions about the chef, about the ingredients, about how great the pedigree is, and so on. And it can also, in a more clinical kind of hospital context, it could affect recovery time, it could affect pain thresholds, it could affect things that are related to blood flow and so on. Suggestions are really part and parcel of our physiology.

Amir Raz (33:30)

So could you give some very specific examples of some of those principles of suggestion, like the placebo effect in, like, you know, in a restaurant and like, because we've been talking about suggestion kind of in the abstract, but like, so, for example, how does it work?

Mike Carruthers (33:48)

So I invited a whole bunch of my friends who are known to be wine connoisseurs, people who spend a lot of time and money on fine wines and on fine dining, people who spend time not just reading about it and not just learning about it, but also drinking good wines and traveling the world and collecting good wines, wines and so on. And I told them that my doctor told me that I should drink a little bit of wine to do, to, to, to lower my cholesterol or whatever it is. And I told them, I, I, you know, I have some wines. Would you like to join me? And I bring out wines and I tell them stories about the wines. I tell them stories about the wine that, that, that I have. And it's very easy to demonstrate that the story that I tell about the wine is actually a lot more important than the actual wine itself. In other words, if I tell a very fancy story about a wine that I got from France or from a particular mansion or a particular region, if I tell them how much I paid for it, if I tell them who gave it to me, if I tell them the whole story around it, that would affect to a large extent the ranking that the wine is going to get.

Amir Raz (35:00)

Something in my life that I've noticed that I'd like to get you to comment on is I'm much more suggestible depending on who's doing the suggesting. There are certain people that I give a lot more stock to, and not because necessarily they deserve it, but somehow your doctor, My doctor. When my doctor tells me something, I'm much more likely to listen to what he says than if you told me that thing. And I don't even know how great a doctor he is, but he's my doctor, so he must be right.

Mike Carruthers (35:38)

Factors such as trust and chemistry, the interaction between individuals, things that have to do with the twinkle in your eye and body warmth and bedside manners and your ability to laugh at a joke, these are all very important parameters in determining how people will react to what you say, into the suggestions that you make or receive, in addition to the academic credibility, to the clinical training, to the intellectual prowess of a particular professional or a friend. A suggestion that you would get from your physician is one thing. A physician could, you know, physicians come again in many flavors, and there's a spectrum of them. And some of them, you know, would charge you an astronomical amount for one hour of consultation. You will make that suggestion different. It would come with a different weight attached to it. If you have to wait very, very long time before you see the doctor, if you have to pay a lot of money in order to see the doctor, it would change the weight that is associated with that suggestion. Many factors influence the way that we accept or reject suggestions. And the funny thing is that sometimes they're not even known to us because sometimes we receive suggestions without even realizing that we receive them. And the most interesting thing about suggestion is that they work. Whether you believe it or not, whether you detect them or not, they still work because we're all suggestible to some extent.

Amir Raz (37:07)

Well, and that story about the doctor, as you say, if I had to pay $1,000 to get his advice, I'd take it much more seriously than if I saw him in the park having a beer and he said the same thing to me. I go, oh, okay, sure, that's right, that's right.

Mike Carruthers (37:22)

And there are ways to heighten the effect of suggestion, you know, more than just the fee that the physician is going to charge you if you have to wait for three months before you see the physician, if the physician shows up and seems busy, if the physician spends a lot of time with you, or a little bit of time with you, and so on and so forth. There are ways that we can, from studies, evidence based ways, to increase the power of suggestion, to increase the effect, and to milk the suggestion for more than what it is by playing with certain parameters. And this is really the science of suggestion.

Amir Raz (38:05)

There is a link, at least in people's minds between suggestibility and being gullible, that the more gullible you are, the more you are prone to succumb to someone's suggestion. Right?

Mike Carruthers (38:19)

Gullibility does not equal suggestibility. Feeble mindedness is not the same as suggestibility. Suggestibility is basically your ability to accept or reject or in general, to respond to some kind of a communication that is telling you to do something or is telling you to think about something. And some people would add that it's an uncritical acceptance of a particular opinion or an idea or a behavior. And the tricky thing about suggestion is sometimes we get suggestions that we're unaware of. And that's where it gets interesting, because it sort of interferes with our autonomy, with our free will. A lot of people don't like to think of themselves as suggestible agents because it tells them in a way, it interferes with their autonomy and it interferes with their ability to be the authors of their own actions. They feel that somebody else is Manipulating them or deceiving them or causing them to do something that is against their will.

Amir Raz (39:20)

So what's an example of that? Give me an example of a suggestion that I'm not aware of.

Mike Carruthers (39:26)

So let's say that, you know, let's start with some silly ones and then, and then move up. So let's say that I say to you, you know, what's the mike, what's the name of that liquid that we sometimes drink? Oh, it escapes me. I guess I have a senior moment that, you know, white liquid that cows sometimes. Dr. That's enough. What I just said is enough to trigger in the minds of most people the notion, the concept of milk. I didn't say the word milk, but I said enough things around it. I said cows, I said drink, I said white, I said liquid. There's enough information there that through some kind of a very simple semantic triggering semantic activation, most people in our culture will think about milk. But I didn't say milk. So I can create a situation. Of course this was very childish. It was sort of a caricature of and very crude way of invoking milk in people's mind. But in a very carefully crafted way I can bring about concepts and ideas in people's minds without talking about them directly. Not even as far as they're concerned. They're not going to even register that I'm talking about them obliquely. They're going to think that I'm not talking about them at all. But there's going to be enough information there that they will connect the dots. I will know how to get them to connect the dots or for their mind to connect the dots through some kind of a cognitive fill in system that I know a little bit about as a researcher, as a scientist, as a cognitive neuroscientist. And they will sort of do that, not even feeling that they're doing that. By doing, by putting them on this garden path, by creating this trajectory for them, I can actually lead them to thinking about ideas. I can lead them to doing certain things when they think that they are the authors, they are the people who came up with this, because I didn't even talk about that.

Amir Raz (41:17)

But clearly some people seem more suggestible than others. And why? What's the difference?

Mike Carruthers (41:25)

Suggestibility is a complex profile that allows some people to respond more to some suggestions, again based on where they come from and also depends on the showmanship of the person doing the suggestion. So for example, I used to be a magician for many years and part of the shows, part of the performance that I would do is. I would do theatrical acts of mind reading. And sometimes people will come to me after and ask for some serious advice on their life. And it was very strange for me that, you know, as an entertainer who acts like a wizard and very clearly disclaims that, you know, this is all for entertainment person. This is all a performance. Still, people come and they ask you for advice because they take the suggestion very, very seriously. So some people are suggestible, almost like a fingerprint. It's like a biological trait. They're very, very suggestible. When they hear something, they believe it. They're not. They don't have a very critical way of thinking or processing information. If you tell them that they look tired, they begin to feel tired. If you. If they. If you suggest to them that they, you know, that they see, seem hungry, they begin to feel hungry. Some people are like that. Other people are extremely skeptical, and it's very difficult to penetrate them with a suggestion. It doesn't mean that they're not suggestible. It just means that there's more resistance to pile through. Suggestibility is probably a very strong biological trait. It has a biological component to it. And the propensity or the proclivity or the tendency to be suggestible is also a function of culture. It's a function of upbringing, it's a function of education.

Amir Raz (43:04)

The placebo effect, I think, is something that people find interesting. This ability that human beings have to respond to something because we believe in it, we believe it works, and therefore it works. Can you, at least medically speaking, can you explain the placebo effect?

Mike Carruthers (43:25)

A placebo effect is really a very interesting expectation effect where what people think plays a very big role, as opposed to the ingredients that are actually bioactive or chemically active in the drug or in the medicine that they're taking. So I can give you something that is actually inert, inactive, but I can tell you a story about it or what it's supposed to do. And I can create your expectations going. I can get your expectations going on it. And as a result, just because I tell you this is going to reduce your pain, this is going to be good for you. When you take it, you're going to feel better. You're going to actually feel better, but not because of what you're thinking, but because what you're thinking because of your expectation. Expectations work no differently than biological agents that we introduced to the body, but in reverse. They start from what the brain wants to experience or feels that it's going to experience, and it cascades downstream as opposed to a situation where you're taking a particular molecule and it changes your physiology in a way that goes upstream. We're not fully sure exactly if they're using the exact same systems, but in some cases we can demonstrate that they're using similar systems. When it comes to placebo effects, it's a lot more complex than just using molecules or something like that, because we can even help people or change people's physiology by letting them take imaginary pills. They don't even need to take pills at all. They can just pretend. They can just act like they're taking pills if they go through the ritual of taking a pill. So we can give them imaginary pills to take. We can even then see some changes in people's behavior. And because this is happening, because we can demonstrate that this is true, the placebo effect really is a very strong expectation effect that can change our physiology in a big way.

Amir Raz (45:27)

Does it also work? I imagine this has been studied because when I think of a placebo, I think of a sugar pill. Like, here's something that doesn't do anything, and you get some effect. But what if you take real medicine but really sell it and really tell a story about it? Does it make it more effective even though we already know it is effective?

Mike Carruthers (45:49)

Absolutely. The story that goes with a medication is as important as the story that goes with a placebo. Every medication that you take, every placebo that you take, the component of the story is very important. The understanding that you have, the expectation that you have as to how it's going to work, why it's working. How many people have been tested, has this been shown to be effective? Who gave you? How much did you pay? All these things, the color of the pill, the size of the pill, all these things are extremely important. How much do you pay for it? How many people do you know who took it and it helped them? All these factors are very important in the big equation of how effective it's going to be. And there are ways to make drugs even more effective, effective drugs even more effective by tweaking and by tailoring the story to the individual.

Amir Raz (46:44)

Do we know that medicine knows that and doctors do that? That's going to help, or that's not part of medicine? That's not a doctor's job to sell the story.

Mike Carruthers (46:57)

It's a very interesting question. I have been in some of the top medical schools in North America throughout my career, and I can tell you that what most doctors, or doctors to be, if we're talking about medical students, know about placebo effects and expectations effects and in general social factors in medicine is usually very minimal. Medical schools are very busy places where they're, you know, the physicians to be are busy cramming a lot of information that has to do with biochemistry and clinical know how. And usually these things are the domain of psychology or I would say soft non specific factors that medical schools offer little by way of teaching about. On the other hand, when I was teaching in medical schools, I was able to introduce courses, elective courses to young physicians about placebo effects, about expectations effects and those were very well received. It's going to take some time and it's going to take some effort and it's going to take a lot of science in order to convince people in medicine, medicine is a very conservative profession, to demonstrate to them the importance of understanding these effects and how to leverage them clinically.

Amir Raz (48:19)

Well, great. I think this is really helpful for all of us who we know we're subject to suggestion and we know we can make suggestions in a way to other people to get them to do what we want. So it's interesting to understand some of the science behind it. Amir Raz has been my guest. He is a neuroscientist and author of the book the Suggestible the Science and Magic of How We Make Up Our Minds. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. It was good talking to you, Amir. Thanks.

Mike Carruthers (48:50)

Thank you very much, Mike. It was a pleasure.

Amir Raz (48:56)

Do you know what your glabella is? Your glabella is the space between your eyebrows. Here are some other unusual words that you probably didn't know were words that were put together in a cool Little video on YouTube by the people at Mental Floss. That tingling feeling you get when your foot's asleep, that's called paresthesia. If you're having trouble getting out of bed in the morning, you're suffering from something called dysania. If you get a prescription from your doctor, you might notice some gryphonage. Gryphonage is a doctor's illegible handwriting. An aphong is a silent letter like the K in knife. And do you know what your Google ganger is? Okay. Google ganger is the person who shows up when you do a Google search for yourself and somebody else shows up in it. And if you feel awful after eating or drinking too much, that feeling is called is called crapulous. It's perfect. And that is something you should know. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I certainly hope you enjoyed it enough to tell someone else about it so they too could enjoy this episode. It's easy to do. Just use the Share button on the app that you're listening to this on, send them the link and let them become our next new listener. Working hard every day to bring you exciting information and interesting guests are our producers Jeffrey Havison and Jennifer Brennan. The executive producer is Ken Williams. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. What if we could disagree in a way that encouraged empathy even during an election year? With a new episode of Thread the.

Mike Carruthers (50:42)

Needle, A Better Way to Disagree, I'm.

Amir Raz (50:44)

Your host, Donna Shield Dugan. I use my background in journalism and draw from my life experiences to explore topics that matter to fellow feminists like you. In this episode, activist and professor Loretta Ross charges us to try her calling in technique. I'm always going to hold people accountable for the harm that they do.

Brad Klontz (51:05)

The question is, am I going to.

Amir Raz (51:07)

Do it with anger or am I going to do it with love and grace? And I choose love and grace because it makes me feel better about myself when I walk through the world that way. You can listen to Thread the Needle on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Radulf Bantwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Red Ulf Bantwein.

Mike Carruthers (51:59)

Wherever podcasts are available.