How Therapy-Speak is Destroying Relationships & Why We Need More Fun at Work

Summary

Podcast Summary: Something You Should Know Episode: How Therapy-Speak is Destroying Relationships & Why We Need More Fun at Work
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guest Experts:

• Isabel Morley: Clinical Psychologist and Couples Therapist
• Bree Grof: Senior Advisor at SY Partners and Author of Today Was Fun

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers delves into two pivotal topics affecting modern life: the detrimental impact of "therapy-speak" on relationships and the essential role of incorporating fun into the workplace. Through insightful conversations with expert guests Isabel Morley and Bree Grof, the episode offers practical advice and profound reflections aimed at enhancing personal relationships and professional environments.

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Part 1: The Perils of Therapy-Speak in Relationships

Guest: Isabel Morley
Duration: [05:08] – [27:31]

Understanding Therapy-Speak

Isabel Morley introduces the concept of "therapy-speak"—the use of clinical terminology from therapeutic settings in everyday conversations. Terms like "narcissist," "toxic," and "gaslighting" have permeated casual dialogue, often leading to misunderstandings and strained relationships.

Isabel Morley ([05:25]):
"Therapy speak is when people take clinical terms often used in therapy, whether they are disorders or terms like boundaries and holding space, and bring it into their everyday conversations with people."

The Problems with Casual Clinical Terms

Morley emphasizes that using these terms outside their clinical context can lead to unilateral blame, where one party is solely held responsible for relationship issues. This oversimplification ignores the complexity of interpersonal dynamics.

Isabel Morley ([07:25]):
"The main problem with how these words are used is that it lays unilateral blame on the other person."

Impact on Relationships

Labeling someone with a clinical term not only strains the relationship but also stunts personal growth. It creates a permanent label that reinforces negative perceptions and hinders constructive communication.

Isabel Morley ([10:19]):
"When you call somebody a disorder or you label them as toxic or a red flag, it really points the finger and says, you're the whole problem."

The Role of Confirmation Bias

Once a label is applied, confirmation bias takes over, making individuals more vigilant in seeking evidence to support their belief, thereby creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of negativity.

Isabel Morley ([26:42]):
"You filter all the rest of the incoming data to pull out evidence that reinforces your belief, and you ignore any data that would contradict it."

Alternatives to Therapy-Speak

Morley advocates for expressing feelings and concerns without resorting to clinical labels. She suggests using personal statements that reflect one's emotions and experiences.

Isabel Morley ([19:22]):
"Instead of saying, you are such a narcissist... How about try saying, wow, I was really embarrassed that everybody had their spouse there and that you walked in 20 minutes late and didn't even seem to notice that I was standing by myself and looking pretty anxious."

The Influence of Social Media

The proliferation of therapy-speak is exacerbated by social media, where terms are often used inaccurately and without proper context, leading to widespread misinformation.

Isabel Morley ([27:01]):
"They are learning these terms on social media. They think they're experts, and nobody is talking them out of using this clinical lens."

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Part 2: Infusing Fun into the Workplace

Guest: Bree Grof
Duration: [33:59] – [53:30]

The Importance of Fun at Work

Bree Grof challenges the traditional notion that professionalism equates to seriousness. She argues that integrating fun into the workplace can enhance employee engagement, morale, and overall job satisfaction.

Bree Grof ([34:12]):
"The quality of our working days really matter. This has been my mission in my career with the premise that when you try to get to Friday, when you try and wish away the work week, you're also just wishing away your life."

Benefits to Business and Employees

Fun at work not only boosts employee happiness but also drives performance. Engaged and connected employees are more likely to share innovative ideas and collaborate effectively.

Mike Carruthers ([43:27]):
"Employee engagement drives performance... If people are engaged, connected, enjoying themselves, that drives performance."

Practical Ways to Incorporate Fun

Grof offers actionable strategies to introduce fun without disrupting productivity:

1. Micro Mischief: Small, playful gestures like adding umbrellas to coffee cups can lighten the mood.
2. Humorous Problem-Solving: Encouraging creative and funny solutions to work challenges.
3. Building Connections: Learning personal details about colleagues to foster camaraderie.

Mike Carruthers ([37:51]):
"Order umbrella picks for your workplace and as you have your morning coffee, you put a little umbrella in yours and give one to a colleague."

Balancing Expectations

While incorporating fun is beneficial, it's essential to balance it to avoid creating unrealistic expectations. Grof emphasizes that fun should enhance the work environment without becoming an obligation.

Mike Carruthers ([50:04]):
"Sometimes it just takes the right kind of fun or the right kind of, like, nudge or the right kind of joke to get someone a little bit out of their shell."

Overcoming Challenges in Certain Work Environments

Even in high-stress environments like call centers, fostering a supportive and joyful culture among colleagues can provide resilience and enhance performance.

Mike Carruthers ([51:16]):
"One of my first consulting clients was the call center of a cancer center... the break room was such a source of joy and camaraderie."

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Conclusion

This episode of Something You Should Know provides a compelling exploration of how language shapes our relationships and the workplace environment. Isabel Morley’s insights caution against the casual use of therapeutic terms, highlighting the importance of nuanced communication in maintaining healthy relationships. Concurrently, Bree Grof’s advocacy for fun at work underscores its significance in fostering a productive and fulfilling professional life.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own use of language in personal interactions and consider simple yet effective ways to make their workplaces more enjoyable. By embracing these strategies, individuals can cultivate better relationships and more vibrant work environments, ultimately leading to a more balanced and fulfilling life.

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Notable Quotes:

• Isabel Morley ([07:25]):
  "The main problem with how these words are used is that it lays unilateral blame on the other person."

• Isabel Morley ([10:19]):
  "When you call somebody a disorder or you label them as toxic or a red flag, it really points the finger and says, you're the whole problem."

• Bree Grof ([34:12]):
  "The quality of our working days really matter... the quality of our workdays matter. And I believe they should be fun."

• Mike Carruthers ([43:27]):
  "Employee engagement drives performance... If people are engaged, connected, enjoying themselves, that drives performance."

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Mindful Language Usage: Avoid using clinical terms outside their appropriate context to prevent misunderstandings and relationship strain.
2. Express Personal Feelings: Communicate emotions and concerns through personal statements rather than labeling others.
3. Integrate Fun at Work: Small, intentional actions can significantly enhance workplace morale and productivity.
4. Balance and Authenticity: Ensure that efforts to incorporate fun are genuine and do not create undue pressure or unrealistic expectations.
5. Foster Connections: Building meaningful relationships with colleagues can create a supportive and enjoyable work environment, even in high-stress settings.

By implementing these strategies, individuals can foster healthier relationships and more enjoyable workplaces, contributing to overall well-being and success.

Transcript

[Isabel Morley]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class.

[Isabel Morley]

I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.

[Mike Carruthers]

Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

[Isabel Morley]

And breathe.

[Mike Carruthers]

Oh sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.

[Bree Grof]

Today on something you should know the tricky ways airports get you to spend more money then Therapy Speak should we be using therapy words in everyday conversation?

[Isabel Morley]

I will say therapists do joke that we never have to tell people in our lives. This is my boundary. You're being toxic. I think you're a narcissist because it's not effective to do that. The main problem with how these words are used is that it lays unilateral blame on the other person.

[Bree Grof]

Also, some great driving hacks from people who drive all day long. And can a workplace be fun and still be professional?

[Mike Carruthers]

I think what we've done is we've sort of equated professionalism with seriousness. But ultimately I really believe that people want to enjoy their days. It's not a controversial thing to say that people enjoy laughing.

[Bree Grof]

All this today on Something you should.

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[Bree Grof]

Something you should know Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you Should Know with Mike Carruthers. We all know that stores are designed and laid out to get you to spend more money, but did you know airports are as well hi and welcome to this episode of Something youg Should Know in airport Lingo. The time between when a passenger clears security and boards the plane. That's called dwell time. This is when passengers are most likely to spend, especially during the crucial golden hour, the first 60 minutes beyond security, when passengers are in a more self indulgent mood. The display boards listing flight information are there in part to keep you updated on your flight, but also to Reassure you that you have plenty of time to wander and shop. One hour of dwell time is great, but two hours, that's even better. So airports are constantly trying to get people through security faster. Well, that's not always been my experience, but the effort is there. One study found that for every 10 minutes a passenger spends in the security line, they spend 30% less money on retail items at the airport. Several years ago, the TSA announced it would give $15,000 to the person who came up with the best idea for speeding up security. I have some ideas. Shops and restaurants are often clustered together to evoke sort of a Main street feel because people like to shop in more bustling environments. And you'll notice that while the floors in airports for most of the airport are hard surface like linoleum, the gate waiting areas are carpeted. This is an attempt to make holding areas more relaxing, like your own living room. Because happy, relaxed travelers spend more money. And that is something you should know. You often hear people talk about other people using psychological terms. They'll say things like, oh, she's so bipolar, or he's such a narcissist, or those people are so toxic. And those are very clear in descriptive terms. But should we be throwing around these rather clinical sounding words in casual conversation? It seems those words can cause some problems that you may not realize. That's according to my guest, Isabel Morley. She is a clinical psychologist and couples therapist. She is a contributing author to Psychology Today and has been featured in all sorts of media. She's author of a book called They're Not Gaslighting. Ditch the therapy speak and stop hunting for red flags in every relationship. Hi, Isabel. Welcome to Something youg Should Know. Hi.

[Isabel Morley]

Thank you so much for having me on.

[Bree Grof]

Sure. So let's define some terms here. What do you mean by therapy speak? And what's the problem with using therapy speak when you're not in therapy? And just help me understand this issue.

[Isabel Morley]

Therapy speak is when people take clinical terms often used in therapy, whether they are disorders or terms like boundaries and holding space, and bring it into their everyday conversations with people. And so sort of apply all of this therapy knowledge into their everyday lives. And while that can be a really great thing because it helps people understand and explain and get their needs met, it can also be very easily misapplied and lead to a lot of problems.

[Bree Grof]

You know, I hadn't really thought much about this till I saw your book, but when you hear people throw around those clinical terms, well, he's a narcissist. Or, you know she's toxic. Those are pretty powerful words that have a real impact.

[Isabel Morley]

That's the problem, is that these are clinical terms and we give a lot of deference to medical terminology. And people tend to respect and listen to others when they use those words, even if they're being used incorrectly. And I make a strong case that I don't think these therapy terms even need to leave the therapy room and certainly not to be misused and weaponized in our relationships.

[Bree Grof]

Well, these therapy terms have been around forever, but why is it now that people are using them in everyday conversation to describe other people?

[Isabel Morley]

I do hold therapists a little bit responsible for the proliferation of therapy speak because we have introduced terms as we educate our pat and we try to help them understand their experiences. And perhaps not with enough caveats of when and how those words should be used. But I will say therapists do joke that we never have to tell people in our lives. This is my boundary. You're being toxic. I think you're a narcissist because it's not effective to do that. But that is what many people are now doing.

[Bree Grof]

And why is it not effective if someone is a narcissist or someone is a psychopath, I mean, why not call it out?

[Isabel Morley]

The main problem with how these words are used is that it lays unilateral blame on the other person. And so rarely is it the case that one person is the only objectively wrong person in that dynamic relationship or interaction outside of abusive relationships. Both people contribute to communication issues. Both people have to negotiate boundaries, be flexible, work on emotion regulation skills. But when you call somebody a disorder or you label them as toxic or a red flag, it really points the finger and says, you're the whole problem.

[Bree Grof]

Yeah, but here's the thing. If you say that Bob, he's so toxic, I know exactly what you mean. I mean, it's a good term to use. Well, I may not know exactly what you mean, but I have a pretty good idea of what you mean, and I don't think any other word would be as good as that. So I get why people use it because they're very descriptive. I mean, I know what a narcissist is. So if you tell me Bob's a narcissist, I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Isabel Morley]

And here's the thing. I agree with you. And I am certainly someone who has done it myself, especially when I was younger, because these words communicate something very quickly and very clearly, and especially when you're talking with friends and family, it's nice to have quick relatable point to make and everybody understands what you're saying. Therapy speak and its misuse and weaponization is this next level where people are using these words directly, accusatorily in their relationships with their parents, their friends, their co workers, their bosses, their spouses, and not just sort of trying to describe an experience, but really labeling and accusing the other person of being this full blown disorder or term.

[Bree Grof]

Well, it also seems that when, and I think what you're talking about is when people use this therapy speak in a negative way, there are words in therapy speak that are nice. You know, he's very compassionate, he's an empath, he's a. Those aren't the words you're talking about, are they? Or are they?

[Isabel Morley]

You know. No, I haven't really addressed those terms, but you're right, there is a lot of positive therapy speak. I'm thinking of validation being a big one. That I think is fantastic. But when people are using therapy speak and misapplying it, it tends to be to avoid taking responsibility for their own part of the problem. And my concern is it stunts people's own self growth because they're saying, this person is so terrible in this way. And I'm going to focus on that. They're a narcissist, they're a sociopath, they lack these abilities and skills and they're not doing any self reflection and doing any self growth that would benefit them for their future relationships.

[Bree Grof]

Yeah, well, it kind of becomes a permanent label. Like if I call you a narcissist or I call you a psychopath, that becomes your label. That's who you are, that's who you think I think you are. And chances are, just because I called you a narcissist, it's probably not true.

[Isabel Morley]

For the most part. No. I mean, therapists joke about this all the time, that there's just no way that everyone's boss and everyone's ex is a narcissist. Right. Statistically speaking, it's up to 5 or 6% of the population at most. So it's just not possible. But it's definitely tempting to have the escape route of calling another person something that is so definitive and absolves us of blame. But then it leads to this question of if you think that this person you're in a relationship with is a narcissist, a sociopath, has bipolar is borderline. What does that mean for you? Telling them that they have this big problem and expecting them to change it, to take responsibility and apologize. I think people don't realize that the work doesn't stop at identifying a label.

[Bree Grof]

Well, that is such a great point. Because if I declare that you have this disorder, well, now what I mean, I put this label on you, and so what are we going to do with it?

[Isabel Morley]

Right. And then anything the other person does could feed into that conclusion very easily. So they have to walk on eggshells to not give you any more evidence for your conclusion about who they are, what disorder they have. And the point that I make to my clients all the time is if you have genuine concerns, person you love has a disorder or is abusive or toxic in this way, you have to think about how you're going to approach that with this person and if you want to be in a relationship with them, when so often I see people sort of lob these accusations and expect the other person to just live with it.

[Bree Grof]

Like you said, yeah, I'm perfect and you're a mess. And so now what are we going to do with that? But you have to, I'm sure you understand the appeal of doing that, of labeling someone else as having the problem. It takes a lot off your shoulders. So there is real appeal there.

[Isabel Morley]

Every grad student will tell you that we have all gone through the phase when we learn about how to approach diagnostic impressions. There is this immediate temptation to view everyone in your life through a clinical lens. And finally, you have an explanation for every time somebody hurt you, disappointed you, made you feel a certain way. You can label them, you can explain them in this pathology that makes you feel better. However, grad students are taught out of doing that in years and years from their professors, whereas now people are learning these terms on social media. They think they're experts, and nobody is talking them out of using this clinical lens.

[Bree Grof]

Well, and some of those worked. I mean, you call somebody a psychopath or a sociopath, that's some pretty heavy hitting there. That boy. I mean, that carries a lot when you throw big words like that around.

[Isabel Morley]

If you think somebody you're in a close relationship with is a sociopath, you need to be finding a way to get out of that relationship.

[Bree Grof]

I would think so, yeah, Real fast.

[Isabel Morley]

But as fast as possible.

[Bree Grof]

Since it is so tempting to think that way, to label people because of their behavior, well, they're a narcissist or they're toxic or whatever. Or what's a better way to think?

[Isabel Morley]

Can I tell you? I think the better way and the most unsatisfying answer, which is to accept and even embrace how complicated and messy and imperfect humans are that even humans who are well within the normal range of psychological and emotional functioning are going to do pretty terrible things to each other sometimes. And that's not necessarily pathology. That is situational. That is a skill deficit. That's a growth opportunity. Right. But we have to understand that humans, even at their best, do a lot of bad things. And we need to figure out how to work with people and work with ourselves to improve and continue to communicate.

[Bree Grof]

So let's go down that path for a little bit. People, even in the range of normal, do horrible things to each other. Like. Well, I don't want to hear that.

[Isabel Morley]

Me neither. Listen, if I could find a pathological reason why someone's hurt me, I would love to have that explanation as opposed to finding out that they just didn't consider me, that they didn't care about my feelings, that they put themselves first in a way that really made me feel unimportant. That's a terrible way to feel. So if there's an out to that feeling, and I can call them a narcissist, of course I would want to do that.

[Bree Grof]

But.

[Isabel Morley]

But the truth is, people do hurt each other. They do put themselves first sometimes. And that's not a reason to pathologize them. That's a reason to look at how we can continue to grow and change. And there's a reason to have compassion for ourselves too, when we are the person who missteps and hurts another.

[Bree Grof]

We're talking about therapy speak and reasons why we shouldn't use it in everyday conversation. My guest is Isabel Morley. She's author of the book They're Not Gaslighting. You. Ditch the therapy speak and stop hunting for red flags in every relationship. You know, it's interesting. If you own or run a business, you're just sort of expected to know how to hire people. Well, sorry, I've been in that position. Maybe you have too. Hiring is a lot harder than it looks and the results are too high stakes. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. With Indeed, you don't have to struggle to get your job post seen on other job site. Indeed's sponsor jobs help you stand out so you can hire fast. With sponsored Jobs, your post jumps right to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you reach the right people faster. Look, if you feel real confident, like you can hire someone all on your own and nail it, great. But it's so much better to have Indeed guide you through the process. With Indeed Sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. You just pay for results. Millions of businesses use Indeed. In fact, in the minute I've been Talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed According to Indeed Data Worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com something just go to Indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Have you ever had that experience? Well, everyone's had this experience. You buy some clothes online, they get delivered, you open it up and then there's that wave of, of disappointment. The quality's poor or it doesn't fit or the fabric's not what you thought. It's such a letdown. Well, that has never happened. When I or my wife order clothes from Quince, Quince has the kind of stuff you'll actually wear on repeat, like breathable flow knit polos, crisp cotton shirts, and comfortable, lightweight pants that somehow work for every occasion. And the best part, everything with quints is half the cost of similar brands. You see, by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint's gives you luxury clothes without the markups. Now, since I started buying clothes from Quints, I really, I haven't bought clothes from anywhere else. And each time the clothes arrive, I'm always delighted and never disappointed. And you know something weird? When I tell people about how great Quince is and how I love buying clothes from them, I often hear back, oh, Quince. Yeah, I shop there. I love them. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.comsysk to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comsysk so Isabel, it's one thing to say, okay, we shouldn't call people these names. We shouldn't use these terms in labeling people. But when the urge strikes, what do you suggest we do instead?

[Isabel Morley]

Love this question. Because using these words is a way to avoid being vulnerable. And therapists always want to bring people back to their deep emotional experience and when it's appropriate and safe to be vulnerable with the people in their lives. So instead of saying, you are such a narcissist for showing up late to my work party, you never think about me. And you're so self absorbed. How about try saying, wow, I was really embarrassed that everybody had their spouse there and that you walked in 20 minutes late and didn't even seem to notice that I was standing by myself and looking pretty anxious. That really hurt my feelings.

[Bree Grof]

I wonder too, what those words do to the person they're aimed at. In other words, if you call me a psychopath, well, I'm going to respond to that. I'm not going to like you very much for calling me that name. It's not a benign thing to call me names. And I will respond either verbally or tell myself something in my own head.

[Isabel Morley]

Absolutely. You're going to think it's unfair. You're going to want to explain yourself. You're going to want to pick your own term to throw back in their direction. Right. How borderline of you to get this upset about something this small. That's classic. And again, it tends to create this one upping of scorekeeping, of labeling. And everyone is missing the point, which is that people have hurt feelings or there are really problematic patterns in a relationship that are not being addressed, or there is pathology. But the way people are approaching how they express their concerns that it exists make it impossible for the other person to actually consider if they need to get help.

[Bree Grof]

When I think of times that those words come up, that therapy speak, psychobabbly stuff comes up in a conversation, it's often between people talking about someone else rather than to their face. You know, that Fred, man, he is such a. He's so toxic. And maybe that's okay because, you know, I'm not, We're not throwing it in his face. But I wonder what that does. If there's an effect there, it kind of normalizes that type of speech around the kitchen table.

[Isabel Morley]

It definitely makes it seem appropriate to use these words casually. It makes everyone think that they are an expert in using the words correctly. And we all want to be part of the zeitgeist. We all want to be up with the language that our peers are using. So I think it encourages more and more use of it. And again, to be honest, I don't have a huge problem with the more casual use when people aren't being incredibly serious or accusatory or even weaponizing these words. My concerns really began when I saw couples coming into my practice calling me beforehand to let me know, just a heads up, my partner is a narcissist or an undiagnosed sociopath, or having them in session say it to each other in front of me. And then I realized just how out of hand this had all gotten.

[Bree Grof]

Wait, really? People call you ahead of time and say, just to let you know, my partner is a undiagnosed sociopath?

[Isabel Morley]

Yes. And I've had people say they have talked to their individual therapist. They've come to this conclusion. They just want me to have that information going into the session because obviously, I will need to help fix their partner for them. And I'll tell you every single time it has not been accurate.

[Bree Grof]

Every single time.

[Isabel Morley]

Every single time. And again, this is where I hold therapists responsible, because we should not be diagnosing people we have not met. And the joy of being a couples therapist is you get to see both people in the room explaining their emotions and their experiences, and you see how reasonable or unreasonable they are. Whereas if you're getting one side of the story, it's easy to think the other person is a total monster.

[Bree Grof]

Well, as you said in the beginning, when you label someone, when you label your partner or someone else, your friend or whoever, the conflict is with, when you use one of those fairly powerful clinical terms, you are putting the blame on them that the reason there's a problem is because you're bipolar, you're toxic, you're a narcissist. Whatever it is, the blame is 100% you.

[Isabel Morley]

That's everyone's favorite go to move. I think everyone who comes to couples therapy is secretly hoping that the therapist will say, yep, the other person's the problem. Let's take care of them and send you on your way. Because it's hard to see our own flaws. It's hard to see the ways in which we're contributing to the problem. Because, and I really believe this, we're all doing our best. Even the sociopaths out there are doing their best to operate in this world in the ways that make sense to them. And because we're doing our best, we cann easily see how we could be contributing to the issue at hand.

[Bree Grof]

So I'm curious what the procedure is like. Let's say you really turns out you really are a psychopath or a narcissist or you're bipolar. And I don't mean to laugh, because we've been talking about using those terms when they don't apply. But if they actually did apply, what's the procedure? Because it seems like you're not gonna really be able to fix that in couples therapy with your partner. Maybe that's something you go do on your own or with another therapist or something.

[Isabel Morley]

Absolutely, yes. And this is the way in which I'm concerned that we have lost the value of accurate diagnosis. Because knowing that someone you love, your partner has a disorder should set both of you free. It can help them get the right treatment, which, yes, should be with their own therapist, their own prescriber, their groups, whatever that looks like. And it can help explain parts of the dynamic that might be difficult in your relationship and shed light onto what might be going on for the two of you. But it can't just be solved in a couple's context.

[Bree Grof]

You know, it occurs to me that, you know, you could see something on Instagram or Facebook that, you know, describes a narcissist, and you see three signs of narcissism, and you go, oh, that's my significant other. And you. So you therefore, even in your own head, if you don't say anything out loud in your own head, you have decided this person is a narcissist. And from there, it seems like now, because you've labeled them, that you're constantly looking for evidence to support that opinion. That confirmation bias of you find things to confirm what you've decided is true.

[Isabel Morley]

Absolutely, yes. You filter all the rest of the incoming data to pull out evidence that reinforces your belief, and you ignore any data that would contradict it. So confirmation bias is so powerful when you have decided on a label, and it leads to increased vigilance so that you are really actively seeking out data to confirm your belief, making it almost impossible for someone to not appear like a narcissist.

[Bree Grof]

So therapy speak these clinical terms that we've been talking about, how did they get out of the clinic? Because you didn't used to hear people say these things a lot. People didn't throw those terms around as much as they do now. I imagine social media has a role to play in this, and this is.

[Isabel Morley]

The way in which I appreciate social media because it's lowered the stigma around therapy and clinical terminology in a way that has helped people understand themselves and seek help more openly. Whereas in the past, you would just say somebody was quote, unquote, crazy and leave it at that. But, yes, now there is much more openness to talking about these words and terms in a way that has been really complicated.

[Bree Grof]

Yeah, because it's good in one way and not so good in another.

[Isabel Morley]

And I argue that a pendulum can swing too far in the other direction. I don't think it was good when we refused to talk about depression and anxiety or encourage people to seek help. And we had taken a good thing too far or we over pathologize people in our lives and ourselves in a way that gets in the way of a happy, functional life.

[Bree Grof]

Well, it seems to me that expectations are different, that people expect their lives to go better than they probably could ever go. But that's the expectation because that's what we see when we see people on social media. They never post their horrible days. They only post when things are going great.

[Isabel Morley]

How many influencers do you see on Instagram and TikTok who seem so happy with their lives, who have the perfect marriage and who never fight with their kids? And that's the expectation now that that's what you should be able to have. You should wake up every day feeling rejuvenated and ready to tackle work. And if you don't feel that way, you must be depressed or your partner must be a sociopath or there is something pathologically wrong if you are not living this wonderful, perfect life that it seems like everybody else can.

[Bree Grof]

Achie well, this therapy speak stuff, I mean it is so tempting to use those labels. And you said you've done it, even though you now try not to. But I've done it. And it's hard not to. But I think at least we can be a little more careful about it. I've been talking to Isabel Morley. She is a clinical psychologist and couples therapist and the name of her book is They're Not Gaslighting. You ditch the therapy speak and stop hunting for red flags in every relationship. There's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. I know several people who sell stuff online. They have an online store, so I've heard the stories of how complicated it can get. But the people who use Shopify, they tell a different story. Shopify is the e commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. In fact, 10% of all E commerce in the US is handled by Shopify. From household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting off the ground, Shopify is so popular because they have already dealt with or anticipated any question or potential issue you could have like their intuitive design studio with hundreds of ready to use templates to build you a beautiful online store. And Shopify has these great AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography. All the things that would take you a ton of time. And of course you've got to get customers to your store. So Shopify makes it easy to create email marketing and social media campaigns to bring you new customers. And they can help with things like managing inventory, international shipping and processing returns. Turn your big ideas into With Shopify on your side, Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com sysk go to shopify.com sysk shopify.com sysk losing weight is a big topic now. You see a lot of dramatic pictures in the news of celebrities and others dropping a lot of weight with these new medications and if you've looked into it yourself, you quickly get that sticker shock when you see the price. That's where hers comes in. Hers is transforming women's healthcare by giving you access to affordable weight loss treatment plans. HERS connects you with a medical provider who will work with you to determine the best treatment options for you and then if prescribed, you get medication as part of a doctor developed weight loss program complete with ongoing care, check ins, dosage and medication adjustments and 24. 7 online support. No additional cost. Weight loss by hers is realistic, it's not restrictive and it's very affordable. Hers provides access to both oral medication kits and GLP1 injectable options with oral medication kits starting at just $69 a month with a 10 month plan when paid up front. Start your free online Visit [e-mail] something that's f o r h e r s dot com something for your personalized weight loss treatment options forhers.com something weight loss by hers is not available everywhere. Compounded products are not approved or reviewed for safety, effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescription required. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased. Traditionally, fun and work are almost opposites. Work well, that's something you do that is serious. It requires your full attention. To incorporate fun into work would be a distraction. It would interrupt the flow. It would hamper your work and make you less productive. Still, for several years now that I'm aware of, there have been efforts made to incorporate more fun into people's work and it has met with some resistance. Probably because what would be the payoff? Why would a business want their employees to have fun at work? To what benefit they can have fun outside of work. If they're having fun at work, well then they're not working and we can't have that. Well, here with a fresh look at this whole idea of making fun part of work and the reasons why it is a good idea is Bree Grof. She is a leading voice in the future of work and company culture. She's a senior advisor at the global consultancy SY Partners. Her clients have included Target Pfizer, Microsoft, Calvin Klein, NBCUniversal and more. Bree is author of a book called Today Was Fun, a book about work. Seriously. Hi, Bri. Welcome to something you should know.

[Mike Carruthers]

Hi, Mike, how are you?

[Bree Grof]

I'm great. And so what is the purpose? Why are we talking about this? What would be the benefit of incorporating fun into work? Why do it? What's the goal?

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, two things. First is that when you overwork, you underlive. And we only get so many hours and days on the planet. And so the first thing I want people to know is that there's always an opportunity cost to anything, right? But especially when we prioritize our work over our lives. And the second thing is that the quality of our working days really matter. This has been my mission in my career with the premise that when you try to get to Friday, when you try and wish away the work week, you're also just wishing away your life. That we only get so many Mondays. And so the quality of our work days matter. And I believe they should be fun.

[Bree Grof]

To which many people would say, yeah, well, fun sound maybe at your job, but. But it's not much fun here. We leave fun at the door.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yes. So I hear two super common arguments about this. Two ends of the spectrum. One is like, well, work is called work for a reason. It's drudgery. It's why we get paid, because it's painful and people wouldn't do it otherwise. That's one end of the spectrum. The other end I hear is, oh, work should be your life's purpose and your calling. And if it's not, you're doing it wrong. And I'd actually reject both of those ends of the spectrum. I mean, I understand why people feel them both. But also I think there's a simpler middle ground where work could just simply be fun, could just simply be a nice way to spend our time on the planet. Because work fundamentally is fun. It's nothing more than creating value, creating value that people then exchange money for. And it's fun to make things that people enjoy. It's fun to build with others. It's fun to show off our skills and build new things skills. So when we simmer work down to the basics, it is. It is fundamentally fun. What I'm trying to do is get a lot of the other cluttery stuff away from it. You know, performance reviews that suck the soul out of you and all the rest of it.

[Bree Grof]

But whether or not your workplace is fun, that's a tone that gets set from the top. I Mean, I've worked at jobs in different companies, same job, but the experience can be very different if the tone is set at the top, that it's okay to be light and fun.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yes, it's incredibly important because when you see an executive team laughing in meetings and smiling and not taking themselves so seriously, that absolutely sets a culture for fun and enjoying your days. But even if you don't have that, I still think it's possible, I know it's possible to create sort of a corner of organizational sunlight, almost like you're a cat. If you ever see cats, they squeeze themselves into the one sliver of sunlight in an apartment or a house. That's what people can do for themselves, is how can you create, even for your own working days, even if you have one or two direct reports of small team, how can you make life a little bit more joyful within your sphere of influence, even despite anything else that's going on in the business?

[Bree Grof]

Well, it would seem before anything much can happen here, you would have to get yourself into that mindset. You have to actually believe that work can be fun and then think of ways to make it fun. And can you just an example or two of, like, how do you make work fun?

[Mike Carruthers]

I'm a big fan of mischief at work, just like the micro mischief. So this could look anything like, let's say you order umbrella picks for your workplace and as you have your morning coffee, you put a little umbrella in yours and give one to a colleague. And now you're not having mediocre office coffee, you're having an umbrella drink. And it doesn't slow down the day, doesn't threaten anybody's bottom line. It's just a little bit of mischief and delight. Another example you might ask your team, oh, we have this problem. Normally you might say, okay, let's just figure out some solutions. There's this inventory thing going on. But instead maybe you say, what is the most hilarious way to solve our problem? And it opens up a whole new line of thinking. And it's just honestly more fun to work and run businesses like that. Lastly, I always think connection is such a great antidote to not having fun at work if you can like the people that you're with. As you said it almost sometimes the nature of the work isn't quite as important. So just learn something about a colleague. And some of my favorite questions are ask somebody's middle name. It's not too intrusive of a question, but it's also kind of intimate in a way because you hear family histories, or you make someone blush, or maybe you find out what their pets names are, and all of a sudden now you know that they have a dog named Rover and you get to see pictures on their phone and you have a connection that you didn't before. So those are some sort of micro joy, micro fun places to start.

[Bree Grof]

You know, as you were saying that, it seems like you would have to navigate the people that you're working with, because I can think of people who would find putting an umbrella in their drink would find that quite charming. I know other people who would go, hey, what are you doing? And get upset about it. So you kind of have to tread lightly, it seems.

[Mike Carruthers]

Look, you're gonna pick your battles, and I'm not trying to get anybody fired. So maybe if the place you need to start is just wearing fancy socks, maybe they have a little flamingo print on them, like, then you start there. Whatever. Sort of smallest version of breaking the shell of formality and professionalism is a really, really good place to start. And I'll also share the story because I get that question a lot. Like, oh, we couldn't do this in our business. It's much too professional and formal. And so then I tell the story of what surgeons will sometimes do in the or, which is arguably the most serious of all workplaces. When you have someone's life on the line in front of you. There's a great example from Dr. Peter Attia, the author of Outlive. He tells the story of when he was a Johns Hopkins surgeon doing kidney transplants. He and his team would listen to clips of Napoleon Dynamite while they were doing surgeries. And if you don't know Napoleon Dynamite, it's a throwback 2004, very ridiculous, dry, hilarious film. These clips would have them laughing all throughout the kidney transplants. And you would think, wait, did it compromise the outcomes? Did they live? Like, did the surgeries turn out okay? And he said, actually, over the course of three days, they did 13 kidney transplants listening to Napoleon Dynamite, and everyone had remarkable outcomes. And so I shared that story, because if surgeons in the OR can have fun, then we definitely can in a budget meeting or whatever. Feels very formal. So you work your way up to it.

[Bree Grof]

If there's no harm done, then why would anybody object to it? Except that I think there are those people who just at their core, believe that work is no place for fun. And so, again, it does depend on the people.

[Mike Carruthers]

People will have different appetites for this, and that's okay. Although I will say I have never met A leader, especially in all of my years consulting, who didn't a little bit want to have fun. And sometimes it just takes the right kind of fun or the right kind of, like, nudge or the right kind of joke to get someone a little bit out of their shell. But ultimately, I really believe that people want to enjoy their days. People. It's not a controversial thing to say that people enjoy laughing. And I think what we've done is we've sort of equated professionalism with seriousness. And when we really think about what it means to be professional, it's doing high quality work on time, being reliable, being kind to be able to say, we get all of our work done and we have time for a laugh.

[Bree Grof]

So you make a good case for having fun at work, because having fun is fun. And so that's good for morale. It's good for people. People like to laugh. But what about benefits to the business? You mentioned those doctors performing surgeries and the outcomes were better when they were having fun and laughing. But are there real substantial benefits to any business for doing this?

[Mike Carruthers]

There's two big benefits, one I find more valuable than the other, but I'll cite both. The first is employee engagement drives performance. And this has been studied all up, down, left and right. You can find Gallup's research on this is prolific over the years, research that having a best friend at work improves business outcomes. So there's definitely a business case to be made that if people are engaged, connected, enjoying themselves, that that drives performance. And intuitively, it's actually pretty easy to see that if people are feeling confident and comfortable, they're more likely to share their best ideas, to really care about supporting colleagues and doing what they need to do to be a good member of a team. So there's that benefit, and that is all over the place. You can find it in every business book ever written about culture. I actually think the existential argument is one we're not talking about enough and is actually far more important. You only get so many Mondays. Every day that you spend at work is a day that comes from the finite bank of days that you have on the planet. And when we are doing no more than trying to get through the week because work is extracting from us, and we feel we hold a mental model that we just empty ourselves for our employers so that we can refill ourselves on the weekend, that leaves us in a place where we are enjoying two sevenths of our lives each week at best. And I don't think that's okay. It's not what I want for myself. It's not what I'd want for my daughter. Also, it's not what I'd want for any of the people and the teams that I've led. I would never want them to feel that their existence was only input to the company's bottom line. I also want them to have enjoyed their days at the company because that is valuable too. And ultimately customers provide a share of wallet, which is important. It drives the business. But employees are devoting a grand portion of their lives and I think we haven't valued it to date in the way that we should have.

[Bree Grof]

Well, I like what you say, and you talked about this earlier, that there's this image people have that your work has to be your calling and your passion and do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life and. But that just isn't practical for so many jobs. And it makes people feel like somehow they're a loser because they don't have this passion. But most people probably don't have that passion in the way that it's been written about. And this is something else to replace that because that doesn't exist in a lot of places. That is much more realistic and has clear benefits and outcomes that trying to find your passion is never going to do. It's just not.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, it's too much. And some people on this planet will feel like that and that is beautiful for them. But I also want the barista serving coffees to feel delight in making latte art. To me, that impact is plenty. And so it's important to take down the wild expectations that every day has to be joyful or purposeful. Because the truth is it's. You know what, I'm only shooting for most days. My motto, especially on hard days, is most things. Most days, that's actually plenty. If most days, at the end of the day you can say today was fun, then I think you've won.

[Bree Grof]

What are some other ways that people can push the idea of fun into work without ruffling anybody's feathers, but just kind of push it along?

[Mike Carruthers]

Okay, here's a few other simple ones. Our language really matters at work. So one thing I recommend is saying Happy Monday, Happy Tuesday, Happy Wednesday, Happy Thursday. Normally we just say Happy Friday with the understanding that, oh good, it's the last day of the week. But if you are alive and well and at work, then it's a happy day. So try, try a Happy Monday. A few other things you can do. Sometimes the best way to have A good day is to make someone else's day and enjoy seeing a smile on someone else's face. One way you could do that is sending what I call a love bubble, which is a short little email message, could be two lines long, just to say something that you noticed and appreciated about them recently, like, hey, Joe, you were super masterful in that meeting. I don't know how you got everybody all aligned, but it was awesome. That's it. And they're going to think about that for the rest of the day. You will have made their day. And you're also starting to perpetuate a, a positive feedback of we say nice things to each other and build each other up another. In that vein, if you've ever seen a political thriller where there's a fixer and they say to the president, consider it handled. Well, wouldn't you love if someone did that for you at work? You've got all these things on your plate and someone says, hey, that presentation, consider it handled. I would go and I'd want to kiss that person if HR wasn't nearby. So why don't you do that for somebody else? Hey, I got the draft of that thing that we need to do. Hey, I'm going to look at the inventory or finance numbers for you. Consider it handled. And then just see what a smile that puts on someone else's face and also how much it'll do for you, too.

[Bree Grof]

Is there ever a concern that once you start bringing fun into the workplace, the more you do that, the more people expect more of that? You know, if you, for fun, bring in donuts for everybody one day, then next week, isn't it kind of expected, well, where's the donuts? Like, you have to be careful with that.

[Mike Carruthers]

I do sometimes get this question both from leaders and employees. Leaders worry, well, if I'm generous and fun, then everyone's going to screw around and not get any work done. And then where does that leave me? Team members think, well, conversely, if I'm doing my most brilliant work and over delivering for the boss, then they're going to expect that of me every time. And so it creates this culture where everybody's holding on a little bit and holding back. What I have found to be so revolutionary, when one party starts with an act of generosity, more often than not that's received with gratitude, appreciation, and wanting to reciprocate.

[Bree Grof]

I wonder if there are businesses or departments within businesses where this wouldn't work because the work tends to be, I don't know, negative, like call centers where People are calling all day to complain, and the calls are constant. That it's hard to work in fun when you're just dealing with people who are screaming at you. Is there any hope there?

[Mike Carruthers]

There is hope, absolutely. And it comes from diversifying your sources of joy at work. One of my first consulting clients was the call center of a cancer center. So they were receiving the calls from either people with cancer or people whose loved ones had cancer who were desperately trying to get themselves or their loved one to be seen by a doctor. And it wasn't always possible. There wasn't always a match with a doctor. This is life or death situations. And so these people were being screamed at. That's why we were there, to try and look at the culture and see how we could support these people the best we could. The bright spot of that culture is that those co workers were so immensely kind to each other, supportive of each other. When one person had to just go outside, get a little air, everyone knew exactly what to do to help that person. Some people needed to be left alone. Some people needed a friend. In that moment, the break room was such a source of joy and camaraderie. So if it's not the work itself, which, by the way, was highly fulfilling to them when they could match a doctor and a patient. But if it's not the work itself, then it's the colleagues. If it's not the colleagues, then it's the sense of growth. It's realizing that there's so many ways to spot and amplify the joy in our work. Sometimes it just takes a hot second to take a deep breath and realize that it's there. It's there for the taking. We just have to look for it.

[Bree Grof]

Well, ask anybody who's been working for a long time. You know, what was your favorite place to work? It's always gonna have been the place that had fun. And it sticks with you. And you look back fondly, but also probably find you did some of your best work. Work. Bree Grof has been my guest. She is author of the book Today Was Fun, a book about work, seriously. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Bree, thank you for coming on and talking about this. It was great.

[Mike Carruthers]

It was wonderful. So thank you.

[Bree Grof]

UPS drivers know a thing or two about driving because, well, that's what they do drive. So maybe we could learn from their knowledge. And one thing UPS drivers try to do is not turn left. Why? Well, by obsessively tracking their drivers, as UPS is known to do, they found that a significant cause of idling time resulted from drivers waiting to make left turns, essentially going against the flow of traffic. That's according to a former UPS public relations manager. So drivers are instead encouraged to drive in right hand loops to get to their destination. Consequently, many of the routes are designed to avoid left turns, and UPS says the policy has saved millions of gallons of gasoline and reduced carbon emissions. Another thing drivers are encouraged not to do is drive in reverse. According to a UPS spokesman. We generally will tell them that the first rule of backing up up is to avoid it. The way UPS sees it is that backing up increases the likelihood that a driver will unintentionally bump into something or someone. Again, advice we could all use, and that is something you should know. And so now that this episode is over, take a moment while you're thinking of it, it's still fresh on your mind, and hit the share button on your phone or wherever you're listening and send this episode to someone you know and that would really help us out out. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Unknown]

You might think you know fairy tales and you might think that they are cute and sweet and boring, but the real Grimm fairy tales were not cute at all. They were very dark and they were often very grim. On Grim Grimmer Grimmest, we tell a grim fairy tale to a bunch of kids. Perfect for car rides or screen free entertainment. Grim Grimmer Grimmest activates kids imaginations and instigates fun conversations because fairy tales speak to all of us at a very deep, primal level and they raise interesting topics and questions that are worth chewing over together as a family. Every episode is rated Grim, Grimmer or Grimmest. So you, your kids, your whole family can choose. What is the right level of grim for you? Though, if you're listening with Grandma, she's just gonna go for grim.

[Bree Grof]

Missed.

[Unknown]

Trust me on this one. Tune in to Grim Grimmer Grimmest and our new season.

[Sarah Gabrielli]

Available now from the podcast that brought you to each of the last lesbian bars in the country. And back in time, through the sapphic history that shaped them, comes a brand new season of cruising beyond the bars. This is your host, Sarah Gabrielli and I've spent the past year interviewing history making lesbian and queer folks about all kinds of queer spaces. From bookstores to farms to line dancing and much more.

[Isabel Morley]

For 11 years, every night women slept illegally on the common.

[Bree Grof]

We would move down to the West Indies to form a lesbian nation. Meg Kristen coined the phrase women's music, but she would have liked to say it was lesbian music. And that's kind of the origins of the Combahee River Collective.

[Sarah Gabrielli]

You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes air every other Tuesday, starting February 4th.