← Something You Should Know
Something You Should Know
How to Find the Best Airfares Every Time & What Burnout Really Means
00:50:06
Airfare myths debunked, the truth about burnout, plus how hunger and waiting quietly influence your decisions.
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- [00:01]
Mike Carruthers
You know, over the years I've had to hire producers and writers and I've learned something very important. Hiring is expensive. Hiring the wrong person is a whole lot more expensive. And when that happens, you have to do the whole thing all over again when you need to get it right the first time. This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In fact, sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non sponsored jobs. Instead of hoping the right person stumbles across your listing, you're putting it in front of people who can really help your business. So spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results when you need the right person to cut through the chaos. This is a job for Indeed Sponsor Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs Today on something you should know how being hungry can change your thoughts and behavior. Then understanding how to score cheap airfares. What does and doesn't work like booking
- [01:46]
Scott Kaise
on Tuesday at 1pm or booking you know exactly 63 days ahead of time. That stuff that work anymore. The biggest thing that you can do to get cheap flights is get the timing of your booking right.
- [02:00]
Mike Carruthers
Also why waiting can feel so unpleasant and how to make it less so. And a lot of people believe they're burned out and believing it is itself a cause of burnout.
- [02:12]
Amy Morin
If you believe you're burned out, you'll start to look at everything you're doing through that lens. Yep, the reason I was struggling on Tuesday was because I was burned out. The reason I didn't participate in that meeting is because I was burned out. And when people start doing that, it obviously can become a self fulfilling prophecy.
- [02:27]
Mike Carruthers
All this today on something you should know. One thing I discovered after shopping on Wayfair is that it's almost impossible to stop at just one thing. I went there thinking, well, I might order a thing or two for the house and instead I just kept finding things that we actually need. I replaced the old cover on my gas grill that's been sitting out in the California sun for years and looked horrible. I picked up some new cutting boards for the kitchen because the old ones looked horrible and my son found a new nightstand for his room. I even grabbed some new grilling tools. None of it was anything I went there looking for. I just kept scrolling and thinking, oh, we could use that. What impressed me was the quality. The products feel solid and everything arrived quickly and I can see why. Wayfair has Wayfair Verified, where products are hand vetted for quality before they make the cut. Plus, with millions of verified customer reviews, it's easy to shop with confidence and if you join Wayfair Rewards, you get 5% back on every purchase. Honestly, it was such a fun shopping experience. You gotta try it. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase and start saving on your next home Upgrade. Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair Every style every Home Wayfair Every Style Every Home Something you Should Know Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers if you have an important decision to make, you probably don't want to make it when you're hungry. And there's a scientific explanation for that that we're going to start this episode with. I'm Mike Carruthers. Welcome to Something you should know. If you've ever noticed, everything seems like a good idea when you're starving. It turns out hunger has a big effect on you. Researchers have found that when blood sugar drops, people become more impulsive, less patient, and less and more willing to take risks. In experiments, hungry participants made poorer financial decisions, showed less self control, and were more likely to choose immediate rewards over better long term outcomes. That's why experts suggest avoiding important conversations, major purchases, or significant life decisions. When you're extremely hungry, sometimes the smartest decision you can make is to eat something first and decide later. And that is something you should know. People like to travel. Nearly 90% of all Americans have been on a commercial flight. Yet booking airfare can feel a little like gambling. You find a fare, it looks pretty good, but should you grab it now or wait and hope it drops? Does it really matter what day of the week you book your flight or what time of the day you search, or what travel website you use? And is your browser somehow watching your search and quietly raising the price? There's no shortage of advice about how to get the best deal on airfare, hotel and rental cars. The problem is that a lot of it is outdated, misleading, or just plain Wrong. So what actually works? When should you book, where should you look? And what are the expensive mistakes travelers make without realizing it? Here to separate the genuine money saving strategies from the travel myths is Scott Kaise. He is founder of Going.com, formerly called Scott's Cheap Flights. They track airfare deals and then alert their more than 2 million members around the world. Thrillist has called going.com the travel world's best kept secret and it has received praise from the New York Times and the Washington Post. Hi Scott, welcome to something you should know.
- [06:45]
Scott Kaise
Thanks so much for having me on.
- [06:47]
Mike Carruthers
You know, it almost seems like a sport that people play when they're trying to get cheap airfares, that the goal is to get the cheapest airfare. And then there's all these theories about, you know, you can't book it on a Tuesday or maybe you do book it on a Tuesday. I don't know what the theories are, but you have to do it in the afternoon. Or is there, is there an art to getting cheap airfares?
- [07:13]
Scott Kaise
There is absolutely an art to getting cheap flights. But to zoom out just a tiny bit, I think the reason why people have a real infatuation with getting cheap flights in a way that they don't necessarily have with getting cheap hotels or cheap activities is because airfare is the most volatile purchase that we regularly make. You know, the same flight, I remember watching a flight once from Atlanta to Amsterdam that on Monday cost $800 round trip, search it to the next day, on Tuesday, $300 round trip, search it the next day, on Wednesday, $1300 round trip. And we're talking about the exact same flight. And so that's why, you know, folks know if you get lucky, you can get a flight that cost a fraction of what it might cost on a different day. And that's very unusual. That's not like buying a gallon of milk or a carton of eggs. In terms of how to get cheap flights, you know, there's a lot of different things that you can do. But I'll start off with my top tips. I won't bury the lead. It basically depends on the type of trip you're looking to take. You know, if it's a flight, if it's a trip where you have some flexibility, a vacation that sort of like. Or if it's trip that you just have to be at a certain place at a certain time, your sister's wedding in Nashville. Let's start with the, with the latter, if it's somewhere where you just have to Be there certain date, certain time. You don't have a lot of flexibility. The biggest thing that you can do to get cheap flights is get the timing of your booking right. And you know, you mentioned some old things that kind of used to be true. We can get into later if you like, like booking on Tuesday at 1:00pm or booking, you know, exactly 63 days ahead of time. That stuff that doesn't work anym. Nowadays the best way to get cheap flights on those inflexible trips is to target at what we call a Goldilocks window. It's a certain amount of time before your flight when cheap flights are most likely to pop up. So if it's a domestic flight, about one to three months in advance, that's when you're most likely to see those cheap flights pop up. For international, more like two to eight months. It's a wider window. But if you're traveling during the middle of summer peak season, you need to add a couple months to those recommendations. They tend to, the cheap flights tend to go earlier than they do. If you're traveling off peak for the flexible vacations though, for the ones where you know it's a trip, you could go anytime, anywhere, you've got some flexibility. The best thing you can do is to take advantage of that flexibility and do a little process I call reverse your search. So the normal way, Mike, that people search for flights is that they do a three step process. Step one, they decide where they want to go. Step two, they decide when they want to go there. And only on step three do they look well, what is the flight cost? And by setting the flight price as the final step, it's not terribly surprising we end up with some pretty expensive flights. And so if you want to get cheap flights, I recommend folks look, take that same three step process, flip it on its head. Step one, where are there cheap flights available right now? Out of my home airport. This is, you know, something that you might find flights from over to Rome for 500 bucks, over to Hawaii for 350, round trip down to Buenos Aires for 600 bucks. Step two of those places that are cheap, decide which one interests you the most. Oh, I'd love to go to Rome. You know, I've been. Or I'm a real history buff. Sounds great. And then step three, choose which dates work for your sick schedule. And so by setting prices the top priority rather than the last priority, that's how you end up being able to get cheap flights and take three or four vacations for the price you used to Pay for one.
- [11:02]
Mike Carruthers
Okay, so a couple of nuts and bolts. Questions. There are several places you can go to book a flight online in not only the airline's own websites, but Travelocity orbits the other ones as well. Do sites have different prices or are the websites all different windows to the same thing?
- [11:25]
Scott Kaise
Basically all windows to the same thing. The sort of open secret in the travel world is doesn't really matter where you search for your flights. Google flights, Expedia, Orbitz, whatever you prefer is basically fine because they are all pulling from the same plumbing on the back end where the airlines are loading their flight.
- [11:45]
Mike Carruthers
Okay, so next question is, you mentioned you saw a flight from Atlanta to Rome, I think you said in Amsterdam. Amsterdam. And it went all over the place. What caused that? Is it simply supply and demand?
- [12:01]
Scott Kaise
It is supply and demand and other factors. So airfares are kind of a unique beast when it comes to purchasing things. So it doesn't behave like buying a gallon of milk, where the price goes up depending on how much you're buying, but otherwise generally stays stable. With an, with airfare, it's partially responding to people's demand, but it's also responding to things like the price of jet fuel, how much cargo the airline has booked for that flight, how, you know, you might see prices, for instance, drop in economy because people are actually booking more in first class. And the airline is looking at that flight and saying, well, we're making good profit at the front of the plane. We can actually try to just fill up the back with cheaper seats. There's, you know, myriad factors that is causing the price to shift. But what's tricky for the airline and the reason why it's so volatile is once you sell a seat to a passenger, you can't take it back if the price were to go up later. And so, for instance, my family and I are traveling this summer to Europe. We booked our flight flights nine months ago. They were a lot cheaper nine months ago than they are today because that was before the, the war in Iran began, before the price of oil and jet fuel really spiked. And so if the airline knew that the price of oil was going to be going way up, they probably would have charged a higher price back then. But they didn't know they were just going off of their sort of looking at the previous year, how many people booked, what they could expect to pay and that sort of thing. And so the airlines are trying their best to sell at the highest price that they would think they might reasonably able to get a customer, but also trying not to leave money on the table, because if they charge $2,000 for every seat right now, they're just not going to sell any. But if they charge $200 for every ticket right now, they're going to sell out immediately. And then the price, their costs might go up three, four or five months from now. So it's a very challenging job for the airlines. It's a difficult balance. And this is why you see the price of flights change almost every, you know, every day, if not every hour.
- [14:20]
Mike Carruthers
My sense, from my experience purchasing airfares is that airfares haven't really gone up a lot in the past 10, 20 years, especially when, adjusted for inflation, that, that they seem to be pretty steady with certain times where oil prices go up and they spike, but airfares will spike. But generally speaking, airfares are a pretty good deal, it seems.
- [14:50]
Scott Kaise
Generally speaking, over the past 15, 20 years, airfare has gotten significantly cheaper than it used to be. And the reason why is because airlines went from making almost all their money on economy airfare like they did in, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s, to nowadays making most of their money on things other than economy airfare. Nowadays, airlines are making most of their money on things like credit cards, selling points and miles, selling first class, you know, business class, premium economy seats, selling cargo, all, you know, bags and seat selection, all these other factors that make it that the economy airfare that you pay to be on that flight is just way less important to the airlines than it used to be. And so when, you know, if they're making 60, 70, 80% of their revenue from a flight on these other factors, they kind of look at the economy seats as just, you know, it's a little gravy on top. Let's try to fill those seats if we can. But it doesn't matter to them nearly as much as it used to.
- [15:59]
Mike Carruthers
So address this idea that I've heard, I'm sure other people have heard it too, that when you're searching for a flight online, that somehow the airline or the website is watching you and seeing, oh, you're checking the same flight over and over again, you must really want it. So we're going to raise the price the more you check it kind of thing. Is that really going on?
- [16:24]
Scott Kaise
It's not. And, you know, this is one of those myths in the airline war, you know, the clear your cookie myth or search an incognito myth that is harmless. There's nothing wrong with searching in incognito or clearing your cookies. But it's also Useless. It's not going to do anything to get you cheaper flights. The funny thing is though, in one hand the logic sort of makes sense the way you describe it. On the other hand, let's say we are. Let's say I'm shopping for a pair of jeans and I look at a few pairs and I ultimately don't buy it. Levi's, Dockers, whatever, pants seller, they're not looking at me and thinking, he keeps looking at these pants, he might buy them, we better jack up the price on them. No, the way that most retailers handle someone like myself, they call it an abandoned cart. Somebody who thinks about purchasing it but doesn't is they hit us with a discount code rather than a price increase. And that is, you know, the most common way in business that if you have a customer who's thinking about making a purchase but doesn't, you want to entice them to usually with a discount. So I find it's funny that we all generally accept this, except with airfare. And somehow we decide that the logic must be reversed and the airlines are actually going to jack up the price.
- [17:42]
Mike Carruthers
I think just about everyone has been in a position where they wanted to book a last minute flight because something came up. And usually when it comes to airfares, last minute means very expensive. So I want to see what your suggestion is in just a moment. Something I've noticed over the last year or so is that Quince is quietly taking over my closet. It wasn't intentional. I bought a couple things a while ago. A cashmere sweater, a polo, some pants. Recently I ordered some jeans. Now I've got over 20 things in my closet from Quince and my wife started ordering clothes and my son. Now every time one of us is wearing something we really like, the other one will ask, is that from Quince? And most of the time it's from Quince. What surprised me most is these aren't clothes you save for special occasions. They're the ones you reach for all the time. The fit is great, the quality is outstanding and well, they just hold up. And then you find out why the prices are so reasonable. You see, Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're paying for premium materials and instead of expensive brand markups, that's why they can offer everything from organic cotton tees to premium denim and Mongolian cashmere at prices that really surprised me. Upgrade your everyday Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.comSYSK get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N c-e.comSYSK starting or growing your
- [19:29]
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- [20:54]
Mike Carruthers
Scott Kaise is with me and he is sharing some very valuable advice on booking travel. Scott is a travel expert and founder of the website going.com and Scott, is there any way, if you have to make a last minute flight because of some business meeting or a funeral or something, is there some special secret place where you can go and, and get like a cheap seat at the last minute or the marketplace is the marketplace.
- [21:22]
Scott Kaise
So points and miles is almost always going to be the best bet for a last minute flight purchase. But otherwise speaking, you know, last minute and cheap flights, it's an oxymoron. It's something that two phrases don't usually belong in the same sentence. It used to be, you know, 50, 60 years ago. But what the airlines realized there was a famous study by British Airways back in the 70s where they, they looked and saw, you know, who is it? They, they took the normal approach, you know, the closer you got to take off, they're like any unsold seat is just, you know, it's empty, it's lost potential revenue. They Call it spoilage. And so we should discount the price to try to fill up those seats. But this study that British Airways did in the 70s, they found that who is actually purchasing these last minute tickets, it didn't tend to be vacationers like you or I who are very price sensitive. It tended to be business travelers who are both price insensitive. They don't care what it costs. It's their company paying, but they're also very motivated. They have to get to that business trip. And so what they realize is we're not in the business of selling all our seats. We are in the business of trying to make as much money as possible. And so that they ended up reversing the strategy and instead of slashing the price on last minute seats, they actually jack up the price on last minute seats because those business travelers will pay it. You know, if they sell one seat, last minute seat for $2,000, that's better than selling nine seats for $200.
- [22:57]
Mike Carruthers
Is there any advantage, if you're really price sensitive of calling the airline? Do the people who answer the phone have any negotiating ability at all or they're just, just giving you a price and you say yes or no?
- [23:13]
Scott Kaise
They're just giving you a price and you say yes or no. The only thing that you might be able to have somebody do you a solid, as it were, is if you are in a situation where you're, you missed your flight and then you know you need a replacement flight, you're, you're on the cusp of missing your flight because of traffic or something like that. A lot of airlines have an informal, what's called a flat tire policy where they, you know, instead of having to purchase your own, they might put you on the next available one free of charge. But this is on a kind of per case basis.
- [23:48]
Mike Carruthers
Typically, if you book a flight for a united flight on united.com is it going to be the same price as Travelocity or is it going to be different?
- [23:59]
Scott Kaise
Typically it's going to be the same price. There might be a couple bucks difference. But again, this is the open secret in the travel world that there's not really a best option place to search for flights. It tends to be the same price no matter where you book. Now the only thing that can sometimes be a little bit different is if you kind of piece together your own itinerary. So let's say, you know, we call this sometimes the Greek Islands trick. If you are searching for a flight to Santorini, it might cost $2,000 from, let's say Houston over to Santorini when you search it like that. But if you search a flight from Houston to Athens, that might only be 500 bucks. And then once you're in Athens, you can get a flight or a cruise boat over to Santorini for 100 bucks. And so by splitting it up into two itineraries, doing the work yourself, you might be able to get that $2,000 trip down to $600. But typically speaking, when you search one itinerary, that price is going to be the same no matter where you book.
- [25:03]
Mike Carruthers
What's your thought on, especially if you maybe have a complicated itinerary using a travel agent, can they get a better deal and are they because now you pay typically for their services. What do you think?
- [25:16]
Scott Kaise
Very rarely in economy, occasionally in business class, sometimes there are agent prices or similar that are can be discounted a few hundred dollars. Typically talking not more than, not more than 5 or 10% off the sticker price or the public price, you're more. Where you're most likely to get a discount with an agent is if you're booking a package deal. Light prices have the, I would say, least amount of flexibility, but hotel prices or resort prices or stuff like that have a big amount of flexibility. And so sometimes doing those, lumping those together in a package, you're able to get price that is 15, 20% cheaper all in compared to what it would be if you were booking a la carte yourself.
- [26:08]
Mike Carruthers
Let's spend a few minutes talking about, because we've talked exclusively so far about airlines, booking hotels and cars and like, does it matter where you go? Does it. I know we only have a few minutes left, but just generally, what's, what's the advice there?
- [26:22]
Scott Kaise
You see more price differentiation with hotels and car rentals than you do with with airfare, where it doesn't really where you book, the price tends to be about the same. The biggest difference though, and what you can do to get a good price on hotels and car rentals is that unlike when you book a flight, you pay for it the moment you book it. With a hotel and car rental, though, you almost never have to prepay it's just a reservation. And so what that means is you instead of booking it once and then forgetting about it until your trip, the best strategy is to book it and then keep searching every, you know, I like to set myself a calendar reminder once a week that I'm just constantly, you know, searching the same one. And if the price goes up, no big deal, I've already booked it. If the price goes down from where I book. Great. I'll rebook it at the lower price. And so I've got a car rental coming up next week in Boston. The original price that I booked it at six months ago was about $750 through, you know, searched it every week for the past six months and got to rebook it four or five times over that six months. It's all the way down to 384 for the week. And so that's one of the things that just constantly searching it again. And if it gets lower, rebook it is one of the best ways to save money on hotels and car rentals.
- [27:41]
Mike Carruthers
I have a sense just from things I've seen and communications I've received from hotels, if you book your hotel, they would prefer you book your hotel directly with them, then they don't have to pay a commission to whatever third party that you booked it through. And first of all that seems to be true. Is it true?
- [28:00]
Scott Kaise
Absolutely. You know, the commissions that they Pay can be 20, 30, 40% sometimes. So they are thrilled if you would book directly rather than through an agency or through somewhere where they have to pay a commission.
- [28:14]
Mike Carruthers
So given that you would think that if you went directly you should be able to get yourself a discount even if it's not 30, 40%. But you could get some better deal or maybe some add ons like free breakfast or something.
- [28:28]
Scott Kaise
Absolutely. And sometimes they do offer that. You know, this is one of the things where unlike with flights, when you book, doesn't matter where you book a flight, you can put in your frequent flyer number and get miles for that. But with hotels they only are really going to give you miles or status perks or stuff like that if you book directly with the hotel. It's very rare that if you book through a third party you're still able to get it. So that's one benefit that the hotels tried to throw out there. I think that's a great tip though to try, you know, with airfare, calling up the airline to ask for a better price, you're basically never going to get it. But that can sometimes work with hotels.
- [29:06]
Mike Carruthers
Well, I remember hearing some travel expert say if it is a Marriott or a Hilton or whatever, don't call the 800 number, call the specific hotel directly and talk to the manager of that hotel, not the reservation clerk at 1-800-MARRIOTT or whatever.
- [29:28]
Scott Kaise
That's exactly right. Because you know, they seem like they're all Marriotts but they're actually all individual, almost all individual franchises. And you know, the manager, the owner of that individual Marriott really wants folks to book and book directly and so they're much more likely to work with you than calling the central office. It doesn't matter to them nearly in the same way.
- [29:51]
Mike Carruthers
Well, this has not only been really good advice, but you've busted a few myths about how reserving airfares work and this has been fun. I've been talking with Scott Kais. He's founder of going.com it's a referral site that keeps people apprised of airfare deals. It's going as in I'm going on a trip going.com and there's a link to it in the show notes as well if you forget. And Scott, hey great. Thank you for sharing all this.
- [30:18]
Scott Kaise
Thanks so much for having me, Mike. It's been wonderful.
- [30:21]
Mike Carruthers
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- [32:09]
Scott Kaise
Look what TJ Maxx dragged in.
- [32:12]
Mike Carruthers
The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now
- [32:14]
Amy Morin
streaming on Disney and Hulu.
- [32:16]
Scott Kaise
We are digital. We are Downloadable. We are streamable. The fashion event of the year is certified fresh.
- [32:23]
Amy Morin
Pull yourself together.
- [32:24]
Scott Kaise
We have work to do. Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel.
- [32:29]
Amy Morin
That's all. Get Runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney and Hulu. Rated PG 13.
- [32:41]
Mike Carruthers
Burnout. We throw that word around all the time. I'm burned out at work, burned out on parenting, burned out on life. But what does burnout actually mean? Is it just being tired? Is it stress, depression, or something entirely different? More importantly, how do you know when you've crossed the line from simply having a bad week to experiencing real burnout? And then what do you do to recover before it starts affecting your health, your relationships and your ability to enjoy life? That's exactly what Amy Morin is here to explain. Amy is a psychotherapist, mental strength trainer and award winning host of the Mentally Stronger with therapist Amy Morin podcast. Her TEDx talk the Secret of becoming mentally strong has been viewed more than 25 million times. And she is author of the Mental Strength Playbook. Hi Amy, welcome to something you should know.
- [33:42]
Amy Morin
Thank you so much for having me.
- [33:43]
Mike Carruthers
Mike, do we know where that term burnout came from as referring to mental emotional burnout?
- [33:53]
Amy Morin
Oh, that's a good question. So we know that the World Health Organization came out with a definition of it and they say that there's a couple of different parts to it. It has to do with stress that's unmanaged to the point that it starts to create problems in your work life. And it's specifically in your work life. But it can create other issues in terms of your body's response to stress and just an apathetic mindset overall.
- [34:22]
Mike Carruthers
And yet today you hear, I mean, I can't imagine going through a week without hearing somebody tell me about how burned out they are. It's the job, it's the kids, it's the rat race. It has more of an overall, and it seems like it's a self described problem that if you think you're burned out, you're burned out. But I don't know if there's actual symptoms or not.
- [34:46]
Amy Morin
There are actual symptoms. And I think you're absolutely right that in today's world people are using the word burnout the way that in the past we might have just said I'm tired or I'm a bit exhausted. People are saying, ugh, I'm burned out. And what we know is, is that, that when we use that label, burnout, we're essentially telling ourselves, I can't Recover, because that's a big part of burnout. Whereas if you rested, you'd feel better when you were emotionally overwhelmed. But burnout is to the degree that taking a break doesn't help. A long weekend isn't going to do you any good, or a vacation even isn't going to help you come back feeling more rested. And sometimes people will say, when I feel burned out, it's like I just don't care anymore. And that's a huge piece of it. When people are really apathetic, where you feel like, I don't even care if I get my work done or not, that's a huge difference. If you're just overwhelmed, you might be excited till see Friday, or you might be thinking, all right, as soon as I get through this next sprint, I'll have time to breathe. But people who are truly burned out don't have that sense of relief, and they don't have anything that they're looking forward to. It feels like just every day is the constant grind.
- [36:02]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah, well, I find it funny that people never say they're burned out. They're so burned out. They're never just burned out. I am so burned out. And what you said is that nothing will help is kind of the message I'm getting. That seems like it's more of a. It's not just burnout. It's like lack of optimism, lack of anything. It's. It's just like, I give up.
- [36:31]
Amy Morin
And that is what happens when people actually reach the clinical degree of burnout that would help them meet the definition of being burned out. They get to that point where there isn't much hope, where the idea of having less work or checking off something to your on your to do list, it's no longer exciting. You don't get pleasure or satisfaction in handing in your work or even doing a good job. And it starts to take a real serious physical toll. People will say, I can't sleep because I am struggling so much. Other times people will say, I just feel so numb. I don't look forward to something after work. I don't care that we have that meeting tomorrow. I just feel like I'm emotionally numb and yet my body's still having some physical symptoms that would say I'm breaking down, I'm struggling to cope, and I'm having a difficult time just getting through the day.
- [37:26]
Mike Carruthers
Do you have any sense. This is probably an unfair question, but of all the people that claim being burned out, how many of them are really burned out? By the definition that you've just described or has it just become kind of a catch all, I'm kind of tired, I need a nap.
- [37:45]
Amy Morin
And yeah, I don't know the exact numbers of people that would qualify for the diagnosis of burnout because we're at a point where it's recognized by the World Health Organization, but it's not a mental illness. So a therapist can't technically diagnose you with burnout and get the insurance to reimburse you for it. So the numbers are a little tricky. But I will say that, well meaning corporate wellness days, for example, who talk about burnout will end up with a huge proportion of people who are saying, yeah, boy, I attended that one day training and I learned a lot about how burned out I am. And they've adopted that as their label that they're burned out too. And that's in part because we'll find whatever it is that we're looking for. So if somebody stands up in front of a group and says, when you're burned out, you're going to be a little more cynical. Suddenly everybody in the audience is nodding like, yeah, I can relate to being cynical sometimes. Or when they say, when you're burned out, then you're gonna feel exhausted. Well, who doesn't feel exhausted? Or you're less effective at work. Who doesn't feel those things sometimes?
- [38:55]
Mike Carruthers
Right.
- [38:56]
Amy Morin
But then it becomes really easy to then start to look for the evidence that proves it. You're thinking, yeah, that project I did last week really wasn't up to par. Or, boy, am I tired, even though I just got back from a long weekend. In truth, maybe you just had a really busy weekend and that's why you're tired, but we'll find whatever it is that we look for.
- [39:16]
Mike Carruthers
Well, that's kind of why I asked you that question. Do you think just. I mean, I know you don't know the numbers, but do you think true burnout is pretty rare or is it pretty common?
- [39:28]
Amy Morin
I think it's pretty rare. And as a therapist, I'll say, a lot of people walk into my therapy office saying, amy, I'm so burned out, I need help. But when we really start to peel back the layers, it's clear they're exhausted, they're tired and they're overwhelmed. Maybe they're stressed out, but it's not permanent burnout. Out of all of the therapy clients I've seen over the years, I can think of one that I think actually had true burnout. And the treatment for that is a little bit different. Somebody who's Just stressed out might benefit from learning some stress management skills. Or somebody who is exhausted might need to find some new ways to incorporate rest into their day. But somebody who's truly burned out is going to need something much more serious like a six month sabbatical or they're gonna need intensive therapy to help them overcome it, as opposed to just somebody who says, you know, a couple of bad weeks and I can get over it.
- [40:24]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah, right. Well, see, I mean, I've certainly been in times in my life where I was really stressed out, but I never felt like I couldn't overcome it, that there wasn't a light at the end of the tunnel that I would stop caring. I have a hard time understanding what that would be like. I don't think I get it. And I wonder what this culture of, you know, this burnout identity where everyone's walking around talking about how burned out they are, if that's particularly helpful.
- [40:59]
Amy Morin
You know, I don't think it is for a couple of reasons. One, I think it's. But take something away from the people who are truly burned out. If somebody says, oh yeah, I was burned out last year too, I know exactly what you're going through. A person's thinking, yeah, but you don't. Or I'm not back at work yet, so how are we? The same. But I also think it's become a bit of a badge of honor. It's like people really want to say, I work so hard that it's hurting me, yet I keep going almost as a way to get some admiration or some attention. And unfortunately that often gets reinforced. People will get praise for going right back to work after a difficult time in their life. Or they might get praised for working late hours, or their boss says to them, that's amazing that you're able to get that done. You're the only one who could do that. And unfortunately then we're seeing a lot of high performers who are putting themselves in those situations that put them at risk for burnout. But they're also identifying themselves as being burned out way too early.
- [42:00]
Mike Carruthers
So what are the risks of burnout?
- [42:03]
Amy Morin
Well, for one, it would be really difficult to continue your job as is because you're going to essentially just try to coast because you don't care. You don't care if your boss isn't pleased with your work. You don't care if you aren't able to get everything on your to do list done. So for most people, that's not going to be sustainable for the long term. But there's also the physical health risks that it poses. When you're burned out, you're struggling to get through every day. You're not really taking care of yourself. It can take a serious toll on both your physical health and your mental health.
- [42:38]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah, so I get that. But that's. Boy, that seems to be pretty far down the scale from what most people complain about. And what you said about you go to a seminar and you learn about burnout, well, then you convince yourself you're burned out. Like we talk more about it and it seems like the more we talk about it, the worse the problem gets.
- [43:01]
Amy Morin
Yes, I think it's important that we're talking about mental health, but my bigger concern is that the more that we talk about it, the more people are gonna give themselves a diagnosis that doesn't fit. And don't get me wrong, I'm a therapist, so I give people labels. But when we give them a label like depression or anxiety or we talk about what that label means, it doesn't mean that's your identity as a human being. It means it's something that you have and it's something that you can work through. But I think when we're talking about mental health, a lot of times in the corporate wellness space, we're giving people these labels that they're placing on themselves and then it sort of becomes their identity. So six months later they're still saying, yeah, it's because I'm burned out. And unfortunately it can change their behavior. If you believe you're burned out, you'll start to look at everything you're doing through that lens of yep, the reason I was struggling on Tuesday was because I was burned out. The reason I didn't participate in that meeting is because I was burned out. And when people start doing that, it obviously can become a self fulfilling prophecy.
- [44:07]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah. Well, I wonder if two people are in the exact same situation and one is burned out and the other isn't, is that possible? Or is burnout more external? Like everyone in that situation would be burned out, probably. Or is this more about the person and their ability to cope?
- [44:29]
Amy Morin
It's really about how we handle stress. So if you have a stressful situation, two people might handle it completely differently. We'll say a tight deadline or a huge project or perhaps even the threat of a layoff. Some people are going to handle that quite well and think, well, I have the skills, the tools and the resources to get through it. They're less likely to burn out the person who becomes helpless. The person who says there's nothing I can do about this. Everything is out of my control. Those are the people that are much more likely to struggle with managing their stress. And then if their stress continues to go unmanaged for a long time, the longer it goes, then they become at a much bigger risk for burnout. So it's much less about what the job is. It could be a really high stress, high pressure job, but somebody who handles it well still might not burn out.
- [45:22]
Mike Carruthers
And what does handle it well mean? What? What are the characteristics of a person who handles it well?
- [45:31]
Amy Morin
Part of it would be the awareness of knowing, okay, I need to really take care of myself. If my job is going to be incredibly stressful, then I need to make sure that I am doing things in my off time to offset it. So, for example, I'm a therapist. Even in my world, where we're dealing with professionals who know about stress, the average lifespan of a therapist to maintain their job is about seven years. Because people tend to get burned out. And so that's in part because helping people is a difficult profession, but it's also because some people struggle to take care of themselves. So it's about what you do after work. It's about the thoughts that you have during the day. When you face a tough project at work, Are you thinking, this is horrible and awful, or are you thinking, I can handle it? The way that you approach those things, how do you handle setbacks? Are you letting yourself worry excessively, or are you managing your worries? All of those little skills and tools can help. And sometimes it's about little things that you do during the day. So, for example, sitting at my desk during my lunch break and trying to force myself to keep working as opposed to if I took a walk, went outside, actually took my time to eat lunch, research will show I'll be in much better shape when I get home in the evening. It's not just about that 30 minutes and how I spent it, but it's about refreshing my brain. And when we do those little things during the day to give ourselves a break, to lower our cortisol levels and to start to feel better, it interrupts some of that cycle. If we don't ever take the time to do that, which a lot of people don't, they tend to work through lunch. They tend to just be hustling and bustling all day long, then they're much more likely to create an environment where their body's in a high state of alert all the time. And then when they get home, it's difficult to unwind as well. So then they stay in a heightened state of stress after hours. That's when we're really at risk of burning ourselves out.
- [47:28]
Mike Carruthers
And so if somebody's feeling burned out, maybe they're really not burned out, but what's the prescription? What do you do when you feel like you're on that treadmill and you're starting not to care and you just don't. It's just. There's no momentum anymore.
- [47:45]
Amy Morin
Look really closely at the messages that you're giving yourself because your body believes what your brain tells it. If I walk through my day telling myself I am so exhausted I can't get through the day, I don't have any energy, I'm going to feel horrible. But if I flip that around and say, you know, I didn't get much sleep last night, but it's okay, I'm feeling okay, I'm gonna eat something good for lunch and then I'm gonna get through the afternoon, I'm gonna feel a lot better. So take a look at the thoughts that you're telling yourself. The story, the narration overall throughout the day about what you're capable of and what you're not. And developing a healthier inner dialogue can make a big difference so that you feel better during the day. And. And then I would just really take a close look of at what you're thinking when you're outside the office too. Are you thinking work is horrible and awful or are you telling yourself it's a challenge and I can rise to the challenge?
- [48:43]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah, I think that self talk thing is such a big, big key part of this. If you, I've worked with people who, you know, in the morning, you see them and it's like, oh, I'm so tired. And, and you just, you just know that this is, you know, they're just telling themselves they're talking themselves in to being miserable.
- [49:03]
Amy Morin
Yes. If I wanted to convince myself that I'm exhausted, I could do that. If I told myself, oh, I'm so tired today, I don't feel well, then I really start looking for evidence of that. My body's gonna start dragging from fatigue, and before you know it, by the afternoon, I'm gonna convince myself I have zero energy left to give.
- [49:23]
Mike Carruthers
Well, another. I think another key part of this is that, you know, there was a time when you went to work and when you were done at work, you were done, and now you're not. Now people can get ahold of you. You're checking emails on Saturday and Sunday, and so work never ends.
- [49:42]
Amy Morin
And that's another big piece of this for people who feel like, yeah, I can't catch a break because it's become commonplace at my office that we answer emails at 8pm or I've been doing this for so long, I don't know how to scale back. I've been answering messages on Saturdays or I feel like if I don't do enough outside of the office now, somehow I've fallen behind. Cause I've set up this expectation that I can get all of this stuff done. And that's something important to look at too, is those boundaries and how we're managing our time so that we do have a life outside of the office.
- [50:18]
Mike Carruthers
But it seems like from what you're saying that. That a big part of this is don't fall into the burnout trap because chances are you're not truly burned out, chances are you're stressed or whatever, but. But to buy into the burnout story, then you're sunk.
- [50:39]
Amy Morin
And that's it. Exactly. And so while if I wanted to work outside of the office, that's actually a sign that I'm probably not burned out. Because if I were truly burned out, I'd say I don't care. I don't care how much I got done by 5pm, I'm going home anyway and I don't want to think about work in my spare time. However, working outside of the office could create a cycle where I start to actually burn out. So it's important to be aware of the things that we're doing so that we don't put ourselves in a situation where more likely to burn out. And it's also equally important to not use that label if we're not actually burned out. Let's not call it that. Let's not look for evidence of that.
- [51:20]
Mike Carruthers
Well, as you've pointed out, burnout has a definition and most people don't fit that definition. But I think people don't think of it as something with a specific definition. If you state you're burned out, you're burned out, that you're the one who decides how burned out you are. And there's no objective definition of the problem.
- [51:42]
Amy Morin
And I think that is part of the issue is that there isn't a way really to diagnose yourself with it other than if you talk to your doctor, your doctor can help you identify it. There's a lot of quizzes online. Some of them are legitimate, some of them aren't. There are a lot of social media quizzes or memes that will tell you that you're burned out and it becomes really easy to convince yourself that you
- [52:05]
Mike Carruthers
are when you're probably not correct. Well, the next time I hear somebody say how burned out they are, I'm going to look at it a little differently because it does seem like it's become a catch all phrase for everything. Oh, I'm so burned out about this or that or whatever. But it has a specific definition and your advice is great. I've been talking with Amy Morin. She's a psychotherapist. She's host of the Mentally Stronger with Therapist Amy Morin podcast. She has a great TEDx talk, the Secret of Becoming Mentally Strong, that's been viewed over 25 million times. And her book is the Mental Strength Playbook. There's a link to her book in the show notes. Amy, great. Thank you.
- [52:50]
Amy Morin
Well, thank you Mike so much for letting me talk about burnout on your show.
- [52:57]
Mike Carruthers
You ever noticed that sometimes waiting for something seems like it takes forever and sometimes waiting isn't all that bad? Well, the reason is your brain doesn't measure waiting by the clock nearly as much as it measures waiting by uncertainty. Researchers who study customer psychology have found that an unexplained five minute waiting often feels much longer than a ten minute wait when you know exactly what you're waiting on. That's why good restaurants will tell you it'll be 20 minutes for your table. Airlines make delay announcements. Delivery apps show you the driver's progress. None of those things make the wait any shorter, but they make it feel shorter because your brain has something to latch onto. The same principle works in everyday life. If you're running late to meet someone, a quick text saying traffic is bad. I'll be there in 10 minutes is usually far less frustrating than simply showing up 10 minutes late with no explanation. When people know what to expect, they're much more patient. And that is something you should know. This podcast is produced by Jeff Havison and Jennifer Brennan. The executive producer is Ken Williams. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX is the Bear.
- [54:26]
Scott Kaise
The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either gonna be okay.
- [54:31]
Mike Carruthers
No stop. Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. But we have each other. FX's the beginning, the final Season, all episodes now streaming on Disney. I know you like interesting and thought provoking conversations and ideas because you listen to something you should know. So let me recommend another podcast. I know you will enjoy. It's the Jordan Harbinger Show. Jordan has a real talent for getting his guests to share stories and offer thought provoking insights. Over the years, I've sent a lot of people to listen and I get feedback from people who are so glad I introduced them to the Jordan Harbinger show recently. He discussed Scientology and the children who are raised in that organization. It's a fascinating conversation and he talked with Dr. Rhonda Patrick about how to protect your mind and body from the modern world. And it's tougher than you think. I've gotten to know Jordan pretty well. We talk frequently and I tell you, he is a very smart, insightful guy who does a hell of a podcast. Check out the Jordan Harbinger show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.