← Something You Should Know
Something You Should Know
How to Find True Love & Why Some People Pursue Impossible Goals
00:49:41
What actually brings people together romantically — and why some people devote their lives to goals they know they’ll never achieve.
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This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.
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Today on something you should know, the one thing airline passengers hate most of all, then what science tells us about the best ways to find love and why online dating apps can be trouble.
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C
That's not to say that online dating can't work for some people. I think for people who are quite hot and are consensually desirable, they're going to do quite well. But the problem is that for a lot of people, it can be quite demoralizing.
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Also, how your smartphone can cause skin problems if you're not careful. And the fascinating story of people who pursue goals, but not the kind of goals most of us go after.
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People who have spent their lives in pursuit of goals that they know are never going to happen, that are unlikely to happen or are only going to be accomplished well after they're dead.
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Something you should know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today.
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Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers. If you've ever been an airline passenger, you probably share this opinion. And the opinion is that one of the most irritating things about flying is is the other passengers. And you're not the only one who feels that way. So that's what we're going to start with today on this episode of Something youg Should Know. Hi, welcome. I'm Micah Ruthers. So there have been several surveys that show that air travelers are genuinely irritated by the people seated around them. In a recent study, a majority of flyers said that behaviors like invading personal space, ignoring basic hygiene, talking loudly, playing audio without headphones, excessive drinking, and letting kids run wild all make the flight significantly worse. In fact, nearly every annoying behavior tested bothered at least half of the people surveyed. What's especially striking is that many passengers say they dread interaction altogether, preferring silence over conversation at 30,000ft, tight quarters, long delays, alcohol, and stress combine to make etiquette failures feel even more aggravating in the air and than they would on the ground. So the next time you fly, remember, it's not turbulence that ruins most trips. It's usually people. And that is something you should know. What actually attracts people to each other, romantically speaking? We tend to focus on first impressions. Looks, charm, chemistry. And those things do bring people together, but they don't tell you much about whether someone will be a good long term partner. The way people pair up has always been complicated, and now it's even more so. Dating apps have given us an almost endless supply of potential partners, which sounds like a good thing, but maybe not. So what does science and history say about how successful couples actually meet? And does having so many options help us find love or make it harder? That's what we're exploring with Paul Eastwick. He's a professor of psychology at the University of California, Davis, where he directs the Attraction and Relationships Research Laboratory. And he's author of a book called Bonded by the New Science of Love and Connection. Hey, Paul, welcome to Something youg Should Know.
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C
Hi. Thanks so much for having me.
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B
Sure, sure. So let's start here because you say that we have a lot of misconceptions and wrong ideas about how attraction and connection and love work. So what are some of those? What do we get wrong?
- [05:31]
C
Yeah, there's a few misconceptions out there. I think one of the biggest ones is the idea that the mating market, a competition between people for the best partners that is eternal and ongoing, that this is the only way that relationships form and take shape. It's kind of a demoralizing idea for many of us that, well, I'm gonna go out there and, you know, maybe I'm not the most attractive person, but I'll do the best I and, you know, hopefully I'll find a partner somewhere and they won't trade up on me down the line. I think this metaphor for thinking about attraction and close relationships is limited. It is limited in the sense that it applies among strangers who are meeting for the first time. But I think we underappreciate the extent to which market dynamics poorly explain how people form relationships, especially among groups of people who have known each other for a while. And it also just so happens that getting to know people in groups over long periods of time, historically, that actually is how humans have formed relationships.
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B
So when you look at successful relationships, generally speaking, because there's a million ways people can get together, but generally speaking, what do the good relationships have in common in terms of how. How they came to be?
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C
I mean, what's fascinating is that especially in today's day and age, people can get together in a wide variety of different ways. Obviously, we have the apps doing a lot of work for us, but it's also still true that people meet through the classic ways of, you know, meeting people in groups, friends of friends of friends, etc. What's really interesting, I find, is that the way that people meet in the first place and the trajectory that they take, at least in the beginning, it honestly tends not to matter all that much for what people will ultimately build. In other words, many relationships, they're sort of constructed along the way, and a lot of relationships don't work out. But for people who do ultimately get together, it's very hard to do a single moment in time or a single decision that really put them on the right track. It's more like there's a million different ways to do it right, but you also have to kind of get a little bit lucky with the many, many choices that you make as you start forming a relationship with somebody. I also find this idea a little bit freeing too, because what it means is when you initially meet somebody, if there's a connection there, but you feel like, oh, this isn't the kind of person I might want to date, or, oh, my, you know, is this person more attractive than me? Is that going to be trouble down the line? For the most part, all the things that we can assess at the beginning ultimately have very little predictive power later on. What matters instead is what you build along the way.
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B
Well, it seems that so much of what brings people together, what attracts people to each other, seems to have very little to do with what keeps people together. You know, looks and, you know, how you dress and, you know, the things that you try to do to get someone's attention. And none of that stuff matters in the long run, but it's real important in the beginning and kind of puts a gloss, a gloss over what's really important.
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C
That's a very good point. What we often see in the research is that you can predict who is initially popular. And it's a lot of the things you mentioned, right? People who are physically attractive, they tend to be more popular in settings when they're meeting strangers. Especially people who have a lot of social confidence also tend to do well in those kinds of settings. But you're absolutely right that these attributes just don't have any meaningful predictive power later on as a relationship actually forms and takes shape. But one interesting wrinkle. The single best thing that I could recommend to somebody to do on, like, a first date, as you're getting to know somebody, is to be a little bit more open and a little bit more vulnerable than you might assume. And in fact, we see in a whole wide variety of settings that people who are willing to, you know, talk about things that might make them a little uncomfortable or what's something you regret that you've never told anybody, you know, are you afraid of death? And you know why? Getting people to talk about these kind of things actually can lead to more. More liking early on in the same way that they can help build closeness later in a relationship, too.
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B
So the stereotypical ways that you know people meet people or have met people for as long as I can remember is, you know, a friend, a friend of a friend you meet in a bar, those kind of things. And now online dating. What about those things? I mean, have they historically been the way people meet and do they work?
- [10:55]
C
Yeah. So if we think back to the environment in which people evolved, and again, you know, my book is critiquing a lot of evolutionary psychology, But I also take an evolved approach, and I take very seriously the idea of that when people formed relationships in our ancestral past, they were doing so in small groups. You didn't know all that many people, you know, in your groups. On the savannah, you may be in a group of 50 people, and only a tiny fraction of them were eligible partners for you. But you had the advantage of getting to know these people over pretty healthy stretches of time. And what that tends to pull for is what we call compatibility. Compatibility is a scientific concept. It's even a mathematical concept. And it basically means like, hey, you're going to click really well with some people rather than others. Getting to know people over time in groups pulls for that. It allows people to find and even generate compatibility with other people. The challenge with the apps is that when you're browsing profiles and looking at people's pictures, compatibility is a little less palpable and what you're instead focused on are the obvious surface level things like this person is hot. That's not to say that online dating can't work for some people. I think for people who are quite hot and are consensually desirable, they're going to do quite well. But the problem is that for a lot of people it can be quite demoralizing. And this is why I'm always recommending to people like you got to diversify your dating portfolio. And don't forget about the classic group based ways of meeting people because those are effective in many ways.
- [12:42]
B
Well, I hadn't thought about that. But yeah, that makes sense that if you're in a group of people and then it also takes the pressure off because a group takes the pressure off of do I like you and do you like me? Yeah.
- [12:57]
C
Oh, absolutely. It's almost becoming a lost art. The lost art of socializing in groups of friends and acquaintances, like people that you know pretty well and people you know kind of well, the idea that, oh, I might like bring somebody to this party and like they're going to know a few people and I'm going to know a few people and maybe we're going to meet new people this way. When you look at who is more likely to form relationships over a period of months or years, what you generally tend to see is that the people with richer these are heterosexuals. So heterosexuals with richer networks of mixed gender friends, these are the folks that are more likely to form relationships, not necessarily because they're dating the, the friends of their preferred gender, but it's probably more that they're dating the friends of the friends or the friends of the friends of the friends. That historically has been how this has tended to work. And the nice thing about this approach is that it reduces the strong market forces that cause everybody to rush to want to date the most attractive people. As we get to know people over time, we stop feeling that pull toward the consensually attractive people to the same extent.
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We're talking about dating, attraction and how couples get together with Paul Eastwick. He's a professor of psychology at UC Davis and author of the book Bonded by Evolution the New Science of Love and Connection. I don't really like buying clothes online just because the odds are so bad. I've sent back more things than I've kept, so I didn't expect much from Quince. And yet I was wrong. Dead wrong. I love Quince. Everything fits. I don't think we've sent anything back. I mean, they're cashmere sweaters. I've got two of them. They are ridiculously soft. They hold up and they didn't cost a fortune. I mean, we've bought so much from Quints. Jeans, shoes, shirts, belts. The prices are amazing. And that's because Quint's works directly with top factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying for brand markup. You're paying for quality clothes that actually last. So at this point, before I buy anything new, I check Quint's first. Not out of loyalty. Well, maybe a little out of loyalty, but mostly just experience. Quince delivers. So refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U-E-.comSYSK you know what's weird about hair loss? It doesn't happen all at once. You just sort of notice it one day. Huh. I've got three brothers. Every one of them has lost his hair. And so when I noticed mine was thinning a few years ago, I didn't want to wait around to see how that turned out. That's when I found hims. And what sold me was how simple it was. No appointments, no waiting rooms. Everything happens online. You answer a few questions, a licensed medical provider reviews it and if treatment makes sense, it just shows up at your door. I use the spray maybe 30 seconds a day. And from everything I've read, starting earlier really matters. For simple online access to personalized and affordable care for hair loss, ED, weight loss and more, visit himss.com something that's himss.com something for your free online himss.com something featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information. Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. So Paul, it would seem to me that one of the flaws in the system is that when you meet somebody or you're attracted to somebody, there is a tendency to make sure that you put your best foot forward. That you try to look as attractive as you can, not in a deceptive way, but just in a put your best foot forward way. In other words, you're not exactly who you really are. You are a better you momentarily and that that might attract someone to you. But then, you know, then the rose colored glasses come off because now they see you for who you really are. Yeah.
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C
So it's so interesting because I fully resonate with this trajectory that you're describing and I think it will feel familiar to a lot of people, but I want to at least encourage people to either try on something new or think about this in a slightly different way. Yes, we have a tendency to try to self promote, show off the best version of ourselves that we can early on. Some of that tendency is indeed misguided. So there's some work, for example, showing that when you're first getting to know somebody, it actually comes across as more appealing if you talk, if you identify something that the other person can do to help you, than if you act like you've got everything under control. So these are studies that show things like, oh, like that's really interesting that you know a lot about topic X. I actually could use some help with that if you'd be willing to give me some guidance. I don't know much about that. That can make somebody seem extremely appealing that you've just reached out like that. So I think that's part number one that I think would surprise a lot of people. At a broader level, I think that one thing that people often miss is they think like, they gotta be the best version of themselves to get into a relationship in the first place. And what they miss is that a lot of what being in a relationship means is that we become better versions of ourselves through that relationship by getting exposed to new ideas, new activities, new values. So that process of self expansion is really a key part of getting in a close relationship in the first place. So this is why I always try to warn people, like, don't, you know, do the whole, like, I'm gonna work on myself first totally before I get into a relationship. It's really far more dynamic than that.
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B
What has online dating, the apps, done to this whole thing? Because clearly before that you were limited by a lot of things about who you would ever run into. Now you can meet like an endless supply of potential mates and one little red flag and you're gone. Because there could be somebody better. And it seems like that skews the whole thing.
- [20:19]
C
Yeah, I think this causes some issues. It causes some issues. Like you mentioned, you discover a red flag and you're gone. By giving people the ability to bail early on potential partners, you really remove the possibility of compatibility forming. I think for a lot of people, maybe this earns some groans because what it means is that even if your first date with somebody is just kind of okay, really, it is worth giving Somebody a second and a third chance. But because first impressions tend to be the least stable impressions, if you've interacted with somebody a thousand times, your 1000 first impression is not going to be all that different than your thousandth impression. But your second impression can differ quite a bit from your first. And with an opt out system, a system of dating where I can meet you for 20 minutes and say, nope, no more, I'm ghosting you, I'm done with this, I don't have to meet you again because we don't share any friends in common. This is. This makes dating challenging for a lot of people. It really restricts our focus on the people that are initially super desirable. I think the other thing that the apps can do is they really get us to focus on what we think we want because there are all these filters and you can just meet the people who share your particular interests. You try to draw up the perfect partner on paper, but I think the evidence suggests you're probably limiting your options unnecessarily and maybe, you know, raising your expectations unnecessarily. So I think these are in many ways the problems with the apps. It's like too easy to bail on somebody. We've lost the art of getting to know people over time, you know, kind of whether we want to or not. And second of all, it gets us really in our heads, you know, too focused on what we think we want rather than what it feels like to be around somebody over a period of time.
- [22:33]
B
And then there are the people who. I've certainly known people, and maybe I've been one who. The red flags are there, but you ignore them because there's something else pulling you in. But you can see it. It's easier, I think, to see it with other people where they tell you, yeah, I met this person. And then you hear, wait, what? And that hasn't scared you off yet. But when is a red flag a red flag? And it's a real red flag.
- [23:02]
C
Yeah, right. This is, this is one of the genuine challenges, because what people do in their ongoing close relationships, and I'd even argue what people kind of have to do in their ongoing close relationships, is people have to somehow compartmentalize their partner's flaws. Because I've got news. All partners have floss. And the only way that we can sustain a close, interdependent, risky relationship with another person is to acknowledge their flaws, but downplay them as best we can. So in many ways that means taking this thing about your partner that other people might find annoying. But you find it adorable. Or you tell yourself things that, like, well, yeah, I understand that she has these flaws, but, like, everybody has these flaws. So it's not like if I were dating somebody else, that was going to be any better. We call this motivated reasoning. And motivated reasoning is one of the most important tools that we have in our mental toolkit for doing anything hard, like sustaining a close relationship. But the challenge here is that sometimes those things that you're downplaying that you're putting in a box and setting it aside and trying not to look at, sometimes those things actually are bad. Sometimes those things are reasons why you shouldn't be in a relationship with this person. I mean, if you were to put me on the spot, I would say this is the single thing that I wish the science could explain better for everyday people. What is the difference between a forgivable human flaw and a genuine red flag that's going to cause trouble? It's very hard to point to what they are. People who are aggressive in a proactive way. That's one that I can point to. That's a flaw that shouldn't be overlooked. But many of the other flaws that people have really can go in one category or the other.
- [25:03]
B
Given all that, you know, what's your, like, core advice here for people that are looking for love, for people who.
- [25:11]
C
Are out there and struggling and frustrated? I don't say ditch the apps entirely. I'm realistic. I know that they're valuable for a lot of people. They're valuable in many ways. But I like to advise people to imagine what it would be like to just form connections with other people, even without the romantic pretense. What would it be like to regrow our social networks again? Because all of our social networks have kind of atrophied in the last 10 to 20 years. I like to think about, what would it take to bring people together again around some sort of shared activity, shared interest. What would it be like to introduce friends to other friends just for the sake of growing that network, not because, oh, please, introduce me to this person. Like, I need you to set me up on a blind date. So instead of focusing on where you're going to meet your next partner, just focus on, where am I going to hang out with some people again and help my social networks to grow and shift and change? Because, again, where we tended to meet partners in the recent past and in the distant past were things like friends of friends. And if we reintroduce that strategy into the way that we date, I think that can be very helpful for a lot of people.
- [26:39]
B
You know, speaking for myself because, you know, I've been married a long time, I have kids. You know, I've not been out dating for a long time. But I along with, I'm sure many people listening who are in relationships or marriages, we still find this topic really fascinating. It's kind of like a spectator sport, I guess. And it's interesting to see how people get together to watch other couples. I get a kick out of it and I appreciate hearing about the science. I've been talking with Paul Eastwick who is a professor of psychology at the University of California, Davis, and he's author of the book Bonded by the New Science of Love and Connection. And you'll find a link to his book at Amazon. And Paul, I'm grateful you stopped by. Thank you.
- [27:26]
C
Thanks so much, Mike. It has been a joy being on.
- [27:28]
B
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D
Thank you so much for having me, Mike.
- [30:02]
B
So this book you wrote, this project, explain what you did here and who you looked at and briefly why you did this. Sure.
- [30:10]
D
So my book is pretty much about people who have spent their lives in pursuit of goals that they know are never gonna happen, that are unlikely to happen, or. Or they know are only going to be accomplished well after they're dead, in decades, in centuries, in millennia from now. So I went around the world to find people who kind of fit the bill. And it stems from work I've done as a journalist over the years. I mean, the roots of this project date back to 2008.
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B
And so to give people a sense, just a quick list of some examples of these kinds of people, who they are, what they do.
- [30:48]
D
SETI researchers. That's the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. So those scientists and physicists who are looking elsewhere in the universe for intelligence life. I went to Sumatra to follow a renowned photographer who spent the last 40 years trying to get a mystery ape that science doesn't believe exists, but he claims to have seen in the early 90s on film. I spent a lot of time following NASA's first ever planetary defense mission, which, you know, people who are in that field know a killer asteroid isn't going strike the Earth anytime soon, but they are laying the foundation today to protect our descendants centuries, if not millions of years from now. So those are some of the stories that I tried to capture, but also.
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B
People who state that they want to do something impossible, Right?
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D
Yeah. One of the people that I profiled is a woman who has spent her life trying to end poverty. Another person is a treasure hunter in Arizona who has spent the last, you know, 60 years looking for the lost Dutchman's mine. So these are things that I guess are theoretically possible but they realize are probably not going to happen.
- [31:58]
B
And why do they do it? Is it a case of everybody has their own individual reason, or is there something that they all have in common that you can shine a light on?
- [32:09]
D
There's definitely a commonality that emerged as I Spoke to these people, you know, they have bottomless reserves of patience. They have, you know, very impressive reserves of perseverance. And they take a lot of pleasure in what they do. I mean, you have to enjoy the run if, you know you're not going to hit the finish line. You know, these are people who are more interested in the journey rather than the destination.
- [32:36]
B
And so you decide, you pick an example of somebody that we can talk about for a little bit here to kind of get into their head and figure out what's going on here.
- [32:45]
D
Here. Of course, I mean, when I think back of the hundreds of people, the person that usually comes to mind is Jeremy Holden. He's a British photographer who's in his late 50s, but he has spent much of his life in Southeast Asia. He showed up to Sumatra, an island in Indonesia, in the early 1990s. He was just backpacking around like people after college tend to do. And when he was there, he met a woman named Debbie Martyr, who was a British journalist who had been spending the last several years looking for. For a creature named the Orang Pendek. Now, the Orang Pendek is basically Indonesia or Sumatra's version of the Bigfoot. I mean, this is something that the indigenous people who call the island home have been telling stories about for centuries. This is a creature that Marco Polo referred to in his journals during the period of the Dutch East Indies. Colonialists who are working on the island claim to have seen it, but. But, you know, most people doesn't believe this exists, but Jeremy was very, very interested in the story and following Debbie. And so he agreed to put his travels to the side, and he decided he was going to remain there. He claims to have seen the creature in the early 1990s, about six months after he arrived on the island. Conveniently, he didn't have a camera, but because he's a photographer, he decided the one way he was going to be able to prove to the rest of the world that this thing exists was to get it on film. And so, you know, since 1993, he has spent a large portion of his life in Sumatra in this national park, which I traveled to a couple of years ago, trying to capture this creature on film. And, you know, he is somebody who is very well aware of how this story sounds, that, you know, people roll their eyes when they talk to him, that they think he's, you know, delusional, that he's wasting his time. He is somebody who very much has, you know, given up at what he says is any semblance of a normal life to try to capture this creature on film, and yet he does it anyway. You know, as he said to me, he's going to be somebody whose gravestone reads, here lies the man who failed at his life's quest. And yet that failure has given him an incredible life. I mean, he has, you know, been able to travel the world as a photographer, he's captured other very rare animals on film. But the one creature that started this journey for him remains elusive. And yet for him, it doesn't bother him at the end of the day. And I find something very admirable about that, that he has kept going, that he has not given up on this quest, because I think most people in their lives, you get up in the morning and you have a list of things that you want to check off and accomplish before you go to bed. It's one of the reasons I became a journalist. When I was a reporter, I would go into the newsroom, I would write a story, and it would appear in the following day's paper. If you had told me that everything I was working on was never going to see the light of day, I don't know if I would have continued. I mean, I'm curious, if you knew every guest you talked to, these podcasts weren't going to see the light of day, would you do that?
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B
No. What would be the point? That's what I don't understand. I mean, I understand doing things like saving the world from an asteroid that may be a long way away, but because there is a goal there, but just looking for a thing that probably doesn't exist. I don't get that.
- [36:11]
D
Well, for somebody like Jeremy, the reason that he's persevered so long is that he's adamant that if he proves to the world the Orem Pandek exists, it's going to be able to be used as a conservation hammer, in his words, that will ensure that the rainforest in that part of Sumatra is protected from illegal logging, from development, from being overrun by tourists. And so he sees it as, you know, a noble goal that if he is successful and proves it is a real creature, it will have, you know, positive spinoff effects. So for him, you know, he doesn't see it as a useless goal, even though, again, it's probably not gonna happen.
- [36:53]
B
Yeah, well, see, there's the. That's the perfect word for this is how. It seems useless and pointless to me and probably to a lot of people, but he clearly sees it as that there is a point to it, but the point to it is not Necessarily the obvious point. He's not necessarily really looking for this thing as much as he's trying to save the rainforest.
- [37:19]
D
And I think he's using this goal as an excuse for an adventure. Right. I mean, one of the things that has also struck me looking back, I don't think I realized it at the time, but these are people who really understand that we have one life to live and they want to use that life and they want to live that life in very interesting ways. And so for him, you know, the search for the Orion Pendek was a vehicle to give him the excuse to live, you know, on, at the top of a volcanic lake in a national park on Sumatra, in the middle of nowhere. If he had decided, you know, he was just going to be a run of the mill photographer, his life path would have been radically different than it is.
- [38:01]
B
So the people who are looking for extraterrestrial life, they're looking for intelligent life, or are they just looking for something that's alive like a plant?
- [38:11]
D
Well, there are, I mean, there are various threads when it comes to the search. I mean, SETI specifically is looking for what I think would be described as intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. So this wouldn't be so much a bacteria, you know, found on distant planets, but civilizations out there that they might not be as advanced as ours, but they would be, you know, what we consider to be another, another species.
- [38:38]
B
And they do this because, I mean.
- [38:42]
D
One of the big questions in the world, I mean, one of the questions that I asked from a very, very young age is what else is out there? You know, I am a space nerd. I was raised on Star wars and Star Trek and, you know, tales of intergalactic and a vastly populated universe filled with all sorts of alien life. And obviously I am probably never going to meet any of the others, these, these, this life myself. But to me it's very. I love the fact there are people out there who are doing it and they do that because they want to answer the question, are we alone? I mean, I do think it's an important question to ask whether you're religious, whether you're not, whether you're just curious. The universe is immense and it's interesting to know what else might be hidden out there.
- [39:35]
B
But interestingly, there is no evidence. Well, there's evidence that often gets blown up by somebody that says, this is baloney, but there isn't real evidence that we're anywhere close to finding intelligent life. So, I mean, it would almost seem like, well, you know, if we had like, like a little string to pull on maybe. But I don't know where you even, where you even begin to look for intelligent life in the universe because as you just pointed out, it's a pretty big place.
- [40:09]
D
I mean, the people who are conducting the hunt would agree with you. You know, they, one of the, one of the gentlemen that I spoke to, he says the truth about SETI is they don't really know what they're doing. You know, they are.
- [40:21]
B
I love that.
- [40:22]
D
And this is, is, this is. Yeah. And this is one of the most preeminent searchers there is. This was Dan Wor, who, who said that to me. I'm paraphrasing. But you know, they are taking telescopes and they're taking, you know, radio, radio telescopes and they're pointing them to various points in the sky hoping that they're going to get a signal. Right. These are kind of fingers crossed experiments. But if you don't know that, you're never going to get any search any closer to an answer. So I think for a lot of these people it's also a matter of, well, if we don't do this, nobody else is going to do this. And you know, they know they are starting the hunt even if they're the ones who don't finish it. It was also kind of described to me as, you know, they're running a relay race and they have the baton right now and they're going to hand it off to future generations of searchers and hopefully one day one of them is going to cross the finish line.
- [41:14]
B
You know what I wonder is because if you're looking for intelligent life in the universe, which is a pretty daunting task if you get into that self fulfilling prophecy thing where you start to see things that hopefully validate your reason for doing this that maybe aren't really there but you kind of want it.
- [41:36]
D
To happen, there is definitely the fear of seeing things that aren't there. And quite a few of the people that I spoke to admitted an awareness to that that, you know, there is the possibility of going too far down the rabbit hole of chasing ghosts that don't actually exist. And it's a question of being able to rein yourself in to ensure that, you know, it doesn't completely take over your life. I mean, these are people who are self admitted obsessives and you know, obsession can be used as a force for good, but it can also, you know, take control of your life to the point where, you know, the only thing you're thinking about is searching for Aliens, for instance. So it's a matter of, you know, finding the right balance between the two things.
- [42:24]
B
But as you look at these people, and you used the term, I think, a moment ago, that, you know, it's an excuse for an adventure. Is that how they look at it? Do they say, yeah, we know, but this is more of just a joyride and using, we're using this as our fuel or are they really looking?
- [42:45]
D
I mean, some of the people very much see their quests as a ride that they don't know exactly where it's going to take them. But no, there are people who very much feel very passionately about what they're doing. They're committed to these quests. They're committed to finding or approaching an ending, or at the very least getting close to an ending. And they can then hand off their work to somebody else once their careers, once their lives have reached an end.
- [43:13]
B
I'm curious about the person who wants to end poverty, because that is a wonderful goal, but that's a pretty big task. I mean, does she have a plan?
- [43:24]
C
Yeah.
- [43:25]
D
Bonnie Morton, who is the character who has spent her life trying to bring about the end of poverty, is a really fascinating person. I mean, she grew up in poverty. She fled an abusive relationship and wound up in the city of Regina in Saskatchewan, here in Canada, getting off the train with her young son, not knowing a soul in town, and being taken under the wing of a couple who ran a motel in the city. And they basically, you know, helped her get on her feet. And she decided the kindness that she was shown at a very, very low point in her life, she wanted to pay it forward. That was basically the guiding principle for her life, to pay it forward. And a way she decided to pay it forward was to help others in need. And so she joined after she completed university, an organization called the Regina Anti Poverty Ministry Rapham. And basically spent decades working with the cities downtrodden, working with the city's poor, advocating and lobbying the provincial government in Saskatchewan to know, pass legislation that helped the poor. Obviously she was just looking at the issue in her own city, in her own backyard. You know, this wasn't somebody. Even though she, you know, spoke up in the United nations and has, has spread her message around the world, she knew she could only take care of, you know, her neighbors. So I don't want to make it seem like, you know, she was trying to end poverty for everyone on the planet. But still, to me, I mean, I would, I, I would, I'm, I'm, I'm in A complete agreement with you. Like, if I knew that is how I was going to, you know, tempt, if, if basically I had decided that was going to be the way I was going to spend my life, I think I would probably last a month or a week doing it, because pushing that boulder up the hill, it's always going to come and topple you down. And, you know, Bonnie is very well aware of that. As she said to me, the situation now for the poor in her city is worse, demonstrably worse, than it was when she started. And yet, you know, up until the point where she retired, she did finally retire from the organization, although she is still a reverend, she continued to do that. And. And I find something very, you know, motivating about that. I find something beautiful about that.
- [45:48]
B
What are these people who are trying to achieve something that's relatively, well, not relatively pretty much unachievable? What is it they share?
- [45:58]
D
Well, besides, you know, the patience and perseverance and loving what they do, I. I think ultimately they believe in the world that if you are spending your life towards a goal that, you know, isn't going to happen while you're still living, to me at least, it suggests you believe in a world after you're gone. And, you know, at a moment like ours today where, you know, the headlines are dark and everybody's on edge and, you know, we don't know what next week's going to look like, let alone next year and next decade, the people that I met over the years are working towards, working towards that. They're working for the long term. And to me, that means they believe there is going to be a long term, there is going to be a reason to protect the Sumatran rainforest because people are going to be able to enjoy it 100 years from now. There's a reason to study planetary defense and launch a mission to smash into an asteroid today, because there's still gonna be a civilization a million years from now that will benefit from the work we're doing today that it's worth sending probes out into the galaxy and, you know, pointing our telescopes and radio telescopes at the stars to, you know, try to make contact or catch a signal from an alien civilization, because one day, you know, our descendants and their descendants are gonna meet somewhere. So to me, that is the commonality that they share, that they see the world as something that is, you know, interesting and brilliant and something that is worth working for, even if they themselves, you know, don't see the fruits of their labor.
- [47:45]
B
Yeah, it's really kind of curious, because there are people who have very lofty goals that very likely won't come true. I mean, you might as a kid say, you know, I want to grow up to be the president. Well, probably you won't, but there is a chance you will. I mean, there is a path that will get you there if you could figure it out. But these other things, not in your lifetime. There is no path to get there. You're not going to make contact with extraterrestrials before you die. So there's a line there between what but potentially possible and pretty much impossible.
- [48:33]
D
And that's what attracted me to these folks in the first place, that I am somebody, as I said, I like to see results. I am somebody who gets up in the morning, and I have a list of things I'd like to tick off before I go to bed. And if I was living my life with this one ultimate box that I knew I was never gonna check off, I don't think I could do it. I would probably quit as soon as I started. And so for me, it was as much educational, and I was doing it for my benefit because I was curious. I wanted to know, what am I missing? What do I lack? What do these people have that I don't? And as I said, they have optimism, they have perseverance, they have patience. They have all these things that. It's not that I'm a pessimist and I'm impatient, but they have it in spades in the way that I think most of us don't.
- [49:32]
B
Well, it all sounds kind of quirky to me. I just. I could never see myself pursuing something that I know I'll never get to. But I'm fascinated by the stories of people who are able to do that. I've been talking to Mark Medley. He is a journalist and author of the book Live to See the Impossible Goals, Unimaginable Futures, and the Pursuit of Fate. Things that May Never Be. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Mark, I appreciate you telling these stories. Thanks.
- [50:00]
D
Hey, thanks so much, Mike. It's been a pleasure.
- [50:06]
B
Think about all the places you put your phone. On tables, on bathroom counters, in your pocket, and all along the way, your phone is collecting bacteria. And then you hold that same phone device up against your face, and some of that bacteria can transfer to your skin. Experts say a dirty phone can exacerbate breakouts of acne by introducing extra bacteria and grime into contact with your skin. Regularly cleaning your screen and using headphones or earbuds instead of pressing that phone up against your cheek can help reduce the transfer of bacteria. And that is something you should know. Now obviously you like interesting things because you've listened to this entire episode of this podcast. So I bet you know other people that like interesting things who would also like listening to this entire episode of this podcast. So please share it with somebody you know and help us grow our audience. And for that I am very appreciative. I'm Mike Heruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now. You call it an early present for next year. What do you have to lose? Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch limited time.
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A
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B
See Terms I know you like interesting and thought provoking conversations and ideas because you listen to something you should know. So let me recommend another podcast I know you will enjoy. It's the Jordan Harbinger Show. Jordan has a real talent for getting his guests to share stories and offer thought provoking insights. Over the years I've sent a lot of people to listen and I get feedback from people who are so glad I introduced them to the Jordan Harbinger show. Recently. He discussed Scientology and the children who are raised in that organization. It's a fascinating conversation and he talked with Dr. Rhonda Patrick about how to protect your mind and body from the modern world. And it's tougher than you think. I've gotten to know Jordan pretty well. We talk frequently and I tell you he is a very smart, insightful guy who does a hell of a podcast. Check out the Jordan Harbinger show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.