How to Get People to Say Yes & What Your Darkest Emotions Mean

Summary

Podcast Summary: Something You Should Know

Episode: How to Get People to Say Yes & What Your Darkest Emotions Mean
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guests: Atiya Qureshi (Negotiation Expert), Daniel Smith (Psychotherapist)
Date: May 28, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode brings together two powerful themes:

• Research-driven strategies for everyday persuasion and negotiation with negotiation expert Atiya Qureshi.
• A thoughtful exploration of difficult emotions—such as envy, regret, and shame—with psychotherapist and author Daniel Smith.

Sprinkled throughout are brief, science-backed insights about daily life, from the myth of breakfast’s supremacy to the psychology of growing attraction.

---

Part I: Rethinking Persuasion & Negotiation (with Atiya Qureshi)

Negotiation is Everywhere

• We negotiate daily—at home, work, even negotiating chores with children or schedule changes with coworkers.
• Quote: “We are negotiating dozens of times per day... in dozens of moments throughout our daily life.”
  — Atıya Qureshi (06:12)

Common Myths About Negotiation

• Negotiation isn’t just haggling at a car dealership—nor is it inherently a talent you’re born with.
• TV and movies seed the misconception that negotiation must be adversarial and sleazy.

Transforming the Approach: Relational Negotiation

• The most effective negotiation style is relational negotiation:

  • Build strong connections.
  • Care about both your interests and the other person’s.

• Results in more value for both sides, especially in repeated or ongoing relationships.

• Notable Quote: “If you build a strong relational foundation... you can actually create more tangible value for both parties.”
  — A.Q. (08:16)

Internal Work and Empathy (09:23–12:32)

• Don’t start with rigid positions (like “I need a 20% raise”).
  • Instead, focus on underlying needs (“I want 20% more value for my family/myself”).
  • This opens possibilities: bonus, vacation, equity, etc.
• Practice negotiation in low-stakes environments to build skill and confidence.
• Empathy is crucial: Try to see things from the other person’s perspective—even guess at their interests.

Real-Life Example of Collaborative Problem-Solving (12:41–14:52)

• Atıya recounts coaching a job seeker who lost an offer due to miscommunication.
• By understanding the recruiter’s and manager’s perspectives and restating sincere interest, they reversed the decision.
• Memorable moment: Instead of giving up, they sent a direct, empathetic email and regained the offer.

Managing Emotion During Negotiations (15:33–16:50)

• First, breathe deeply to calm the nervous system.
• Then label emotions before moving to rational steps.
• Quote: “You can't really do any of that until you do the emotional management.”
  — A.Q. (16:37)

People Can Almost Always Help—If They Want To (18:49–21:22)

• Approach people as partners, not obstacles.
• Engaging gate agents with empathy yields better help than anger.
• Memorable anecdote: At a chaotic airport, using the agent’s name and acknowledging her stress led to creative help:
  • “In that moment, instead of yelling at her... I used her name, I empathized... and she found a way to get me to Charleston.”
    — A.Q. (20:24)

When People Say No: “No” as “Not Yet” (21:47–23:21)

• Examine where a “no” is coming from—often, there’s a missing piece you don’t understand yet.
• Trade on priorities where your most important ask is less important to them, and vice versa.
• Respect genuine boundaries but probe constructively for alternatives.

Tactics & Mindsets That Work (23:38–27:41)

• Anchoring: Put out the first number, backed by external benchmarks and data.
• Reciprocity: Do small, thoughtful favors with no immediate expectation (“Reciprocity is hardwired within us…” —A.Q. 25:47)
• Influence vs. manipulation: If they’d be upset to know your [ulterior] motives = manipulation; otherwise, it’s influence.

Key Takeaway

• Negotiation isn’t about “gamey” tactics or beating the other side. It’s about relationships, clarity, and collaboration.

---

Part II: The Value of Our Darkest Emotions (with Daniel Smith)

Why Embrace Negative Emotions? (30:44–31:40)

• Emotions like envy, shame, regret aren’t defects—they’re informative aspects of our humanity.
• “We should stop trying to... cleave them off from ourselves and spend time trying to understand what it is they're trying to tell us.”
  — Daniel Smith (31:03)

Understanding Envy: The Second Arrow (31:46–33:12)

• Envy is universal, criticized across cultures/religions.
• The second arrow idea: The problem isn’t feeling envy—it’s feeling bad about having it!
• “These emotions are universal. We can't cure ourselves of them. But the feeling that I should be feeling bad about feeling bad, that's the thing that I think causes the most pain.”
  — D.S. (32:57)

Practical Approaches to Difficult Emotions (34:34–38:59)

• Recognize, name, and accept your feelings: “I'm feeling annoyed right now. Now I can move on…” (36:31)
• Acting out on emotions is different from experiencing them.
• Emotional honesty and self-awareness allow you to move past distress, rather than getting stuck.

The Trap of Regret (39:40–42:37)

• Regret is “a desire for a time machine.” (41:01)
• It’s essentially addictive, but rarely constructive or educational.
• We're better off recognizing it for what it is and moving toward action/change, rather than dwelling.

Accepting but Not Excusing (42:37–44:46)

• Smith clarifies: Acceptance is not license to lash out and hurt others.
• Instead, understand the message behind emotions and address root issues (e.g., anger often masks fear of not being heard).

Understanding Shame (44:46–47:52)

• Difference: Guilt = “I did something wrong.” Shame = “I am wrong.”
• Shame is often inherited emotionally, especially within families/social environments.
• People often hide or dissociate in response to shame.

The Big Picture: Emotional Honesty Is Growth (47:52–49:03)

• Our lives are “enriched by... even the darker and shadowy parts.”
• Naming and discussing these emotions relieves suffering and increases self-compassion.
• Quote: “Once you name these things... you're going to feel better.”
  — D.S. (48:51)

---

Interlude: Science-Backed “Something You Should Know” Segments

Breakfast Isn’t Magic (02:53–05:55)

• The idea that breakfast is critical comes more from marketing (Kellogg’s) than science.
• New studies show meal timing and lifestyle are more important than simply eating breakfast.

How Attraction Grows (49:39–51:02)

• Eye-tracking studies: the more you pay attention to someone, the more attractive they become.
• Mirroring and emotional connection intensifies attraction—a reminder that love is often “at second sight.”

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “We are negotiating dozens of times per day…” — Atiya Qureshi (06:12)
• "If you build a strong relational foundation... you can actually create more tangible value..." — A.Q. (08:16)
• “You can't really do any of that until you do the emotional management.” — A.Q. (16:37)
• “People can almost always help you. It depends on if they want to or not.” — A.Q. (19:07)
• “Reciprocity is... deeply built within us, this idea that we want to return a favor or a gift.” — A.Q. (25:47)
• “We should stop trying to sort of cleave them off from ourselves... what can [emotions] tell us... about the difficulties of living.” — Daniel Smith (31:03)
• “The feeling that I should be feeling bad about feeling bad, that's the thing that I think causes the most pain.” — D.S. (32:57)
• "Regret is essentially a desire for a time machine." — D.S. (41:01)
• “Shame is... the belief that I am wrong... it’s about being seen as fundamentally wrong, fundamentally off.” — D.S. (45:07)
• “Once you name these things, once you can talk about them... you're going to feel better.” — D.S. (48:51)

---

Key Takeaways

• Negotiation is for everyone: It can be learned, practiced, and made collaborative, rooted in empathy, not adversarial maneuvers.
• Emotions, even unpleasant ones, hold wisdom: Acceptance and honest naming are the first steps toward growth and relief from suffering.
• Attention and connection breed attraction: Who we focus on becomes more appealing—a powerful lesson for relationships.
• Re-examine common beliefs: Whether about breakfast or persuasion, dig deeper than received wisdom; research may surprise you.

---

Recommended Resources:

• [Never: Persuasion and Negotiation Skills to Get What You Want by Atiya Qureshi]
• [Hard: Finding the Wisdom in Our Darkest Emotions by Daniel Smith]
  (links in episode show notes)

---

This summary distills the episode’s core lessons with expert insight and practical application, reflecting the engaging conversational tone of the podcast.

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

When you're at work, you never know when you're going to get interrupted. Like when an office fire drill happens right in the middle of your presentation or construction is going on just outside your window. But with the Dell Pro laptop powered by Intel Core Ultra with vpro, no matter how many interruptions you have, your laptop won't be one of them. With battery that's optimized for the way you work and built in intelligence that quiets distractions the moment you're trying to focus, your tech won't slow you down even when you're getting bounced from an office you forgot to reserve the Dell Pro built for those who stay in the flow. Find technology built for the way you [e-mail] Dell Pro built for you. Today on something you should know who says breakfast is the most important meal of the day? Then persuasion strategies to get people to say yes and give you what you

[Atiya Qureshi]

want I love the idea of reciprocity. The idea of reciprocity is that it's hardwired within us that when we receive something, we want to return it. The studies have shown that it's really deeply built within us, this idea that we want to return a favor or a gift.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also the interesting way people become more attractive the longer you interact with them and understanding your darkest emotions like anger, shame, jealousy and regret.

[Daniel Smith]

Regret is always an emotion that I wonder. Maybe there's no value to this one at all. Maybe this one's just a glitch because regret is essentially a desire for a time machine. I wish I could turn back time and do it differently.

[Mike Carruthers]

All this today on something you should

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

know Insurance isn't one size fits all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name your price tool for years. With the Name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they show you options that fit your budget enough. Hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy. Or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit progressive.com and give the Name your price tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law

[Mike Carruthers]

Something you should know. Fascinating intel the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. Breakfast is the most important meal of the day. That seems to be conventional wisdom, but is it actually true? That's the question we first explore as we begin today. I'm Micah Ruthers. Welcome to something you should know. So for years we've all heard that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. But newer research suggests that may be more marketing slogan than medical fact. In fact, Kellogg's is credited with promoting the idea of the importance of breakfast going back to the early 1900s, and it was based on nothing more than the desire to sell cereal. Today. Large reviews of clinical studies have found that simply eating breakfast does not automatically help people lose weight or improve overall health. In fact, some studies found that people told to eat breakfast actually consumed more calories throughout the day. What seems to matter much more is what you eat, when you eat, and your overall lifestyle. Researchers have found that healthy breakfast eaters also tend to exercise more, smoke less, sleep better, and generally make healthier choices overall, which may explain why breakfast got so much credit in the first place. Here's the interesting twist. Newer research on chrono nutrition suggests that timing may matter more than breakfast itself. People who eat more of their calories earlier in the day and lighter meals at night often show better blood sugar control, less hunger, and easier weight management. And that is something you should know. When you think of persuasion or negotiation, you probably picture something high stakes like buying a car, negotiating a salary, or maybe hammering out a business deal. But the truth is, we all negotiate all day long with spouses, kids, co workers, friends. Anytime you're trying to persuade someone or resolve a conflict or get what you think you deserve, you're negotiating. And some people just seem naturally better at it. They know how to influence without being pushy, and they know how to get to yes without creating resentment. The good news is those skills are learnable. Atiya Qureshi has spent decades teaching negotiation and persuasion from elite universities to corporate boardrooms and even work connected to the U.S. state Department. She's a former MIT faculty member, adjunct professor at the University of Michigan, and co author of the book Never Persuasion and Negotiation Skills to Get what yout Want. Atiya, welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Atiya Qureshi]

Hi, it's great to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what I just said in the intro about we all negotiate every day, I don't think that way. I don't think of all these discussions and conversations I have are negotiating, but they Are, aren't they?

[Atiya Qureshi]

I think we are negotiating dozens of times per day, whether it is at home with chores or childcare or dinner prep or where to go for the holidays and which in laws you're going to spend them with or at work with, who's going to stay late working on a project or with your boss on that next promotion happening all of the time and in dozens of moments throughout our daily life.

[Mike Carruthers]

And do you think we're very good at it?

[Atiya Qureshi]

I unfortunately don't think we are yet because a lot of people think about negotiation as theory. And there's also this misconception about what negotiation is. People think we're either born good negotiators or not. And that negotiation is sitting across from a table hammering something out because that's what we see in TV and movies. And unfortunately all of that has added up to people either avoiding negotiations, thinking of them as something that they have to conquer and not being very good either way.

[Mike Carruthers]

Right, right. Well, when I think of negotiation, I think of, you know, some very serious, very formal, you know, like labor union negotiation or in my own life, like sitting down at the car dealership and negotiating the price of a car, which, you know, I'd rather get root canal than do that. And it's. I just don't enjoy it because it just seems so adversarial and like you're looking for. They're going to trick me up here. And it has that reputation, the word has that reputation of being kind of sleazy and just. And that's probably what you would like people not to do.

[Atiya Qureshi]

Yes, it absolutely has that reputation. And it's something that people feel like they really want to avoid it. And that's what I thought too. We kind of build these inner workings and often they happen as a kid and as a kid I was bullied in fifth grade and there was a girl, Bethany, who decided I shouldn't have any friends. And that was a really powerful lesson on the impact of influence for me. And I went from being more passive and you know, from a child of immigrants who said don't rock the boat to all of a sudden thinking I had to be more assertive and aggressive. And so I saw both of those lanes. But. But then when I was sitting at MIT in my co author's power and negotiation class, he talked about how there's this middle path which I call relational negotiation, where if you build a strong relational foundation and bring your interests, but also care about their interests, you can actually create more tangible value for both parties. And a good relationship, that means repeat interactions and more value down the line.

[Mike Carruthers]

When I think of negotiation, when I think many people think of negotiation, we think about tactics like, oh, ask for more than what you want and then settle for less, or never throw out the first number or always be the first one who throws out the first number. It's very tactical. It isn't thoughtful, it's a game.

[Atiya Qureshi]

Yeah, there are tactics that are going to help, but there it can also be very thoughtful and relational. So when you do that internal work, a part of that internal work, other than the emotional side, is being very thoughtful about what you care about in the negotiation and what your goal is. And a lot of people think of what they want as very positional. I need a 20% raise rather than I need to drive 20% more value for my family, myself, my livelihood. And that's very different because when you go in with a position, all you're offering them in that role is either to say yes or no to you. You're not making it collaborative. And it's actually not a negotiation. And there's no room to create value for both parties. If you reframe it and think of it as I need 20% more value, all of a sudden there are different ways that you can drive tangible value rather than just the salary dollar. You can be thinking about bonus structures, equity structures, child care subsidies, transportation cost coverage, vacation time, all of these other areas that actually can drive very tangible dollar amount value that come from different budget line items, different budget buckets, and allow the other person to build a set of options that make the deal possible for both sides.

[Mike Carruthers]

And your brain works that way. Just kind of automatically you start to think, that's a different way of thinking than I think most of us do. It just isn't that thoughtful. It's more like, how do I get him to take out the trash? Or how do I get the price to drop a little bit? It's much more instant like that.

[Atiya Qureshi]

Yes. And I would say I have built myself up to that. Negotiation isn't. People aren't born good negotiators. People are not born confident. It's a skill that is not innate, but that we learn and build over time. And so luckily I've had the time over the last decade to be building this skill and practicing it in the smallest ways. So, for example, thinking about my interests, I try to start by thinking of something really small, a very small decision I have to make, even just what am I going to do for lunch today? And what are the Things that I care about. I care that it's healthy. I care that it's easy. I care that it doesn't take me a lot of time or effort to put into. And you want to start small in low stakes environments where it doesn't matter that you fail, because that's how you build that muscle memory. And you take this step by step for improvement. And then once you do it for yourself, the next level up to that is trying to apply it to their perspective. Can you have a lens of empathy and guess what. What their interests might be? Because that gives you a lot of power in the conversation to start thinking through what are the possibilities in which we might be able to make a deal. And usually we're pretty good at guessing their interests if we can take a step back and put ourselves in their shoes in an empathetic way that is generous toward them.

[Mike Carruthers]

And what would be. Can you give me an example of that? Like imaginary or from your life, a real negotiation and how that went?

[Atiya Qureshi]

Yes, absolutely. So I had a client who was negotiating a job offer and there was a recruiting company in the middle between her and the hiring manager. They had hired a company to find a candidate. And she was really excited about this job. She had two caveats that she wanted to talk to them about. She wanted to push the start date and she wanted to understand if there was an opportunity for a promotion in the. In a shorter timeframe than a year because she felt. Felt like they were starting her off a little junior. Well, the recruiting person had actually framed this in a way to the hiring manager that the hiring. Hiring manager rescinded the offer, which was shocking because I've never heard of that happening with all of the people I've ever coached. I've never seen that happen before. And I remember when she texted me this, my stomach fell and I was shocked and I was panicked. I was like, can we hop on the phone right now? I need to understand what's going on here. And what we had to do was, was actually put ourselves in the perspective of the recruiter and the hiring manager and figure out what, what was the communication gap here? What do they care about? That felt like the need was not being met in this situation. And so for the hire with the recruiter, she actually was going on vacation. And I realized that she was just trying to get this wrapped up one way or another. And she was really brusque with her communication. And there must have been some, some miscommunication with that hiring manager where they found they thought that she Wasn't as interested, she wasn't as committed. She was waffling about the decision. But what we did was we sent an email directly to the hiring manager at that point saying, hey, these are the things we care about. This is why we were asking, providing the why and restating the interest in the role. And actually they came back and gave her the offer back. So that was us seeing a no, trying to think of why that happened and what their perspective might be, and then approaching them with communication from their perspective while sharing our own interests.

[Mike Carruthers]

Wow, that's amazing. That's quite a story. And it's so I think, as I would hear that I would think emotions would get in the way, that first of all, maybe the hiring company was thinking, well, she's just asking too much. Screw her, Forget it. And then if I was your client, I would think how devastating that I don't think I want to work for them anyway. Emotions can really cloud the issue. And you were able to stay on track and talk about the problem rather than how upset you were?

[Atiya Qureshi]

Yes. And what was helpful? I knew she had been crying when we hopped on the phone. So she was absolutely devastated. And in that state, we can't think as clearly. Luckily, I had a step of distance away from it. So even though I was also panicked, one thing I always recommend to my clients when trying to do that emotional management is the first thing is to breathe. Because we feel like we are in a panicked situation, a fight or flight moment, and our whole nervous system reacts and the blood drains from our brain, and we can't think as clearly because we either need to fight or flee. So breathing, if we take a deep breath in, and I like this, I take a deep breath in for three or four counts, hold it for three or four counts, and then I let it out more slowly for six or eight counts. Because what that does, your body cannot release breath slowly if you are actually under attack. So it instantly tells your parasympathetic nervous system, the logic center of your brain, that you're not under attack and you start calming down. Then we can do the emotion labeling, and then we can figure out our rational next steps. But you can't really do any of that until you do the emotional management. And then we can take those, start applying the techniques.

[Mike Carruthers]

You said something to me before we started the interview that I wanted to ask you about in just a moment.

[Shopify Announcer]

Starting or growing your own business can be intimidating and lonely at times. Your to do list may feel endless with new tasks, and lists can easily begin to overrun your life. So finding the right tool that not only helps you out but simplifies everything as a built in business partner can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Gymshark, Rare Beauty and Heinz to brands just getting started. Shopify has hundreds of ready to use

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

templates that can help you build a

[Shopify Announcer]

beautiful online store that matches your brand's style. And you can tackle all the important tasks in one place. From inventory to payments to analytics and more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. And if people haven't heard about your brand, you can get the word out. Like you have a marketing team behind you with easy to run email and social media campaigns to reach customers wherever they're scrolling or strolling. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com realm. Go to shopify.com realm that's shopify.com realm

[Atiya Qureshi]

so good, so good, so good.

[Nordstrom Rack Announcer]

Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom Rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love like Vince Sam, Edelman, Frame and Free People. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you wreck.

[Mike Carruthers]

I'm speaking with Atiya Qureshi. She is co author of the book Never Persuasion and Negotiation Skills to get what you want. So Atiya, you said to me before we started the interview, you said people will help you. I'm sorry, I forgot. What did you say?

[Atiya Qureshi]

People can almost always help you. It depends on if they want to or not.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I love that. And here's a fairly high stakes example of a negotiation that illustrates that point that many of us have seen at the airport, right at the airport when the flight gets delayed or it gets canceled or it's overbooked or something and you see those people that just lose it and they scream and yell at the ticket agent or the person at the gate and here's a chance maybe to get some help and they're blowing it because they don't approach it as a negotiation. They're just furious.

[Atiya Qureshi]

So I had this happen to me. I had a big conference in Charleston that was starting Monday morning and it was Sunday and my flight was delayed. The other flight was canceled. They were like, we'll get you there Monday by noon. And I went up and I said, I think it was Regina. I went up to her and I said, regina, this is my situation. I know that you're probably dealing with lots of people in this same situation, and I'm sure people are mad as heck and kind of taking it out on you. And she looked at me, she paused first. She was typing rapidly on her computer. She looked at me and paused and said, yes, it is actually one of the worst travel days so far this year. I was like, I bet. And that sucks. Here's the situation I'm in. I have a really important conference tomorrow and I'm hoping that there is some way that I can get there even if it's super late tonight, because right now they've booked me on a flight tomorrow that gets me too late to kick things off. And you know what she does? She takes a breath and she starts typing and starts looking at options. And in that moment, instead of yelling at her, instead of treating her as someone who I needed something from that I wasn't going to interact with ever again and just try to get what I needed. I used her name, I empathized with the situation, made a 10 second connection, and she found a way to get me to Charleston. It was by midnight that night. But at that point, I didn't care.

[Mike Carruthers]

What happens when you want something from someone, your spouse, your child, your whatever, and they just say no, Then I know I don't really want to help. I'm not doing that. I can't do that. I don't wish to do that. It seems like, is there a resolution? Is there a path to something other than no? Or sometimes no is no.

[Atiya Qureshi]

Okay. I love this question because first of all, most of the people that I coach and talk to and teach and work with have a very hard time saying no. So I want to talk about that in a second because it's an incredibly important skill to be able to have, especially in a negotiation. I also like to see nos as not yets. And that means that there is an interest of theirs that I don't understand and I need more information. So at that point, what I want to understand is where is that no coming from? Why is it a no? Are there pieces of the puzzle that I don't have yet? And that's usually the case. I don't have pieces of the puzzle yet to figure out how this deal or this Pie can be expanded, we can create more value for both sides and we can figure out an agreement or a path forward. Now, sometimes it is a no, and that means that we have to respect the no. But we can also figure out where we make trade offs. Because when we have my interests and your interests in a deal, we're not going to get every single thing we want. That's understood because we have someone else that we're working with. But if we can rank our interests, right, we have the top ones for us and the top ones for them, then at a no, there's an opportunity to trade. And I, I like priority trading where the things I care about that are less important to you and the things you really care about and less important to me. That's where we make our trades so that we can. If you do have to say no, I need to understand where the future trade is going to be.

[Mike Carruthers]

I think people have this general sense of negotiation that you ask for more than what you want, you settle for less than what you asked for. You come down, they come up and then everybody's happy. But you know, it just feels so gamey.

[Atiya Qureshi]

That is gamey. And I think that the idea behind that is wanting people to feel like they are also getting a win because both sides need to feel like they're getting a win for it actually to be a negotiation that people follow through on. The thing that I like to use as a technique with this is objective criteria or external benchmarks or standards. So you bring, you go and do some research and ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini are amazing at this now where you go and see what is the data out there that supports a range for whatever I'm negotiating. So what's the data out there for the car that I'm negotiating or the salary that I'm asking for? And then once you have that, you go. And I always like to put the first number out there, which we call an anchor. I like to anchor with the number that's most favorable to me, which, and we usually stay around the number that's put out there first. That's what studies have shown. But what you're doing is you're rooting it in data and it's data that you can share. And ideally it's data that feels fair to both parties. Now, of course you want to be willing to move from just that anchor number, but you have a range which feels fair and it's a good way to bring up money when we generally hate bringing it up. And it's a Good way to make people feel like it's fair and that they are also having a win in the conversation. And again, like I said, we're not going to get every single thing we want. So what are the items that you're trading on to make sure that it does feel like a win for them just as much as it feels like a win for you?

[Mike Carruthers]

You had mentioned a couple of tactics like putting out the first number and other things like that that help the relationship not be. No, I'm not doing that. You know, to try to grease the. Grease the wheels. Other things that work like that.

[Atiya Qureshi]

Yes, I love the idea of reciprocity. And there are some really important caveats to reciprocity. Reciprocity is the when you go and give something to someone that is small without an expectation of anything in return. So you want to build a better relationship with people around you, which ultimately will make them more amenable to an ask if you have one. So you periodically take your colleague a coffee, and it's specifically the coffee that they like. Or you bring your spouse home like a little treat because you went to the cafe and saw something they liked. The more thoughtful and specific to them, the better. Now, the caveat here, first of all, the idea of reciprocity is that it's hardwired within us that when we receive something, we want to return, return it. The studies have shown that it's really deeply built within us, this idea that we want to return a favor or a gift. And what you're doing is starting a virtuous cycle of reciprocity where you're doing that for each other in really slow, small, meaningful ways, which build a really good foundation. But what's important here are two items. First, you're doing it without an expectation of anything in return. Because we can always smell quid pro quo. If I buy you lunch today and then ask you for something tomorrow, that is not reciprocity, that is quid pro quo. The second is your intent. People ask me about the difference between influence and manipulation. Influence is when you are trying to improve a situation for both parties. And if they found out what you were doing, would they be upset about it or not? Manipulation is you're trying to get something out of someone that is not necessarily in their best interest. And if they found out, they would be pretty unhappy with what you are doing. And so the intent behind it and that idea of giving something small and improving the relationship is huge. In fostering that idea of people can almost always help you. It depends on if they want to or not. And this even works with bad relationships and can improve them over time.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, this is a real refreshing way of looking at negotiation, especially for people who are in that stuck in that idea that negotiation is this slimy, sleazy practice. You've taken it out of that realm for sure. So thanks for thanks for being here.

[Atiya Qureshi]

Oh my gosh, my pleasure. I just want to create as much value for your listeners as possible and I also have created a special landing page on my website for them with some custom content. It is Atiya Qureshi.com something I've been

[Mike Carruthers]

speaking with Atiya Qureshi. She is a negotiation expert and author of the book Never Persuasion and Negotiation Skills to Get what yout Want. There's a link to her book and also the link that she just mentioned on her website to some custom content for our listeners. That's also in the show notes as well.

[Atiya Qureshi]

Thank you Mike. It has been such a pleasure being

[Windows 11 College Deal Announcer]

here with you Study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time, college students get the best of both. Both worlds get the unreal college deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn [e-mail] studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka mscollegepc

[Red Bull Announcer]

ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play? You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer.

[Mike Carruthers]

We spend a lot of time chasing happiness and joy, Excitement, gratitude. All those emotions that make us feel good. But what about the emotions we don't like to talk about that don't feel so great? Shame. Jealousy, Regret. You know, the ones. We tend to treat them like flaws. As if having those emotions means something is wrong with us. But what if those difficult emotions aren't problems to eliminate? What if they're actually trying to tell us something important? As uncomfortable as they can be, those darker emotions may hold some of the deepest insight into who we are, what we fear, what we value, and what we need. Here to explore why our most troubling emotions may actually contain wisdom is Daniel Smith. He's a psychotherapist whose writings have appeared in the Atlantic, the New York Times Magazine and the New Yorker. And he is author of the book Hard Finding the Wisdom in our darkest emotions. Hi Daniel. Welcome to something you should know.

[Daniel Smith]

Hi, thanks so much for having me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So, as I mentioned, we often think of those negative emotions as flaws in us and we would like to suppress them. And you think that's not necessarily such a great idea. So make your case for that. Help me understand why we should embrace these emotions.

[Daniel Smith]

I suppose if there's a case to be made, it's that these emotions that we've come to think of as negative are aspects of ourselves that are indelible, that are useful, that are full of information, and that we should stop trying to solve for them. We should stop trying to sort of cleave them off from ourselves and spend time trying to understand what it is they're trying to tell us, what role they play in our lives, what they can tell us about ourselves and about the difficulties of living.

[Mike Carruthers]

And will you name those emotions or some of those emotions that we're talking about? Specifically?

[Daniel Smith]

Anger, shame, despair, boredom, envy. I mean, envy can be a really good one to talk about because it's, it's invade against in moral education. It's invade against in religious education. Envy is the thing that, that leads to destruction and pain and, and violence in religious texts. And we are taught or have been taught in the past that this is something we want to not feel. There's an old Buddhist parable about, about the second arrow. The first arrow is the pain that you feel in the course of a life. Someone comes along, they have something that makes you feel envious. They have a beautiful spouse or a well ordered home or a lot of money or a great career, and you feel envy. The second arrow is the thought or the feeling I shouldn't be feeling envious. It is a bad thing to feel envious. And I need to sort of cure myself of envy. And I think that's where the pain comes in, not the feeling of the envy. These emotions are universal. We can't cure ourselves of them. But the feeling that I should be feeling bad about feeling bad, that's the thing that I think causes the most pain.

[Mike Carruthers]

As I listen to you say that, one of the reasons that I think I would try to avoid envy and get rid of it is I see no value in it. I mean, it doesn't do me any good. So why have it?

[Daniel Smith]

I'm not sure that it does no good, but just to start at the first part, let's say it didn't do you any good. It's still there. Every culture in the world, every culture we know about, has some of experience of envy and has ways collectively to cope with envy, but we feel it. So you may not say that it's not useful, but it is there. That's just the first part. The second part is that whether or not these things have use, whether they're all practically useful, they do lead us to some understanding of what it means to be alive. If you're going to live among other people, you're going to have to contend with that part of yourself that compares. And envy is a sort of outgrowth of that very natural human impulse to compare your state to someone else's. So what are you going to do about that?

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I hear what you're saying, that we're going to feel envy because we feel envy. But we have a choice whether to be consumed by that envy and really focus in on it and dwell on it, or acknowledge it and move on. I mean, just like with anger, I mean, there's an emotion that people wish often that they didn't have, but we get angry. But some people have a real anger problem. And just getting angry at an appropriate time seems very different than somebody who just explodes all the time over little things. Those seem like two different things.

[Daniel Smith]

Yeah, it is. I mean, it really depends on whether you're feeling the thing alone or whether you're feeling it and acting on it. I mean, what I find with in my work as a psychotherapist is that a lot of people are experiencing pain not because they're acting on their emotions, but simply because they're feeling it. But, you know, I concede the point that there are different degrees of these emotions. I personally am less prone to anger and rage than I am to annoyance. I have a sort of strong, what the psychologists call an annoyance proneness. And sometimes I act on that. I usually don't. Usually the only person it really hurts is myself. And finding some way to accept that I am someone who gets annoyed. I'm not sure there's any way ever that I'm going to find a way to not be an easily irritated person. The alleviation of the pain might be simply to accept the fact that I'm someone who gets annoyed pretty easily and then move on. I mean, what happens is we very often feel these things and we grab onto them, we sort of latch onto them as a problem. And the thing to do, the thing to learn is to how to notice the emotions. I'm feeling annoyed right now. Now I can move on with my day or with the moment or something like that. I don't need to dive into it now. I'm gonna let it go. Here it is. And I'm not gonna continue along that line.

[Mike Carruthers]

But here's the thing, though. You could accept your annoyance, that you are prone to annoyance, as am I, and get on and accept it and get on with your day, but it has an effect on other people. They don't. Oh, they got to tiptoe around you because we don't want to annoy Daniel. He's going to get all annoyed. So there's consequences to it. It isn't just accept it and move on. Other people have to deal with it, and that affects your relationship with those people.

[Daniel Smith]

I take that point as. As well. But again, I have not found a way in my own life to be less annoyed. Aside from the one I'm talking about. I mean, when I think about annoyance, Annoyance for me is often about the small things in life, the kind of misdemeanors, and it's often about control. I wish that I can control my environment. I wish that that person wouldn't be trying to cut me off in traffic. I could get very annoyed at that. And in the moment I do, it happens. The first arrow happens. I could recognize that what's happening is I am getting bothered by the fact that I do not have control over this situation. I don't have control over the behavior of other human beings, getting in touch with what actually the emotion is. For example, if I'm feeling envious of someone, I don't often call it envy. I just feel this distress. I feel this discomfort. Once I. Once I tune into the fact that it's actually envy, I can call it envy. And I could recognize that it's about my feeling that I'm missing something, that this other person has, that I'm experiencing some lack. Then you could kind of field test it, and you could say, well, okay, I'm feeling envious. Does that person really have something that I need in order to feel whole? Once you know the emotion, then you usually feel a lot less distressed about it.

[Mike Carruthers]

I said a few minutes ago when we were talking about envy, that I don't see the value in it. I don't see the value in feeling envy. And you pushed back a little bit and said, but you're gonna feel it. And it is an emotion. It's a universal emotion. People feel envy, and we need to acknowledge that. But it does seem that the value part of the equation is important. And it does seem like some of these emotions don't really have much value. And by value that they don't serve me. To feel these and get wrapped up in these negative emotions in many cases don't serve me, and therefore they have no value.

[Daniel Smith]

When I think about regret, regret is always an emotion that I wonder, maybe there's no value to this one at all. Maybe this one's just a glitch. Because regret is essentially a desire for a time machine. Regret is. I wish I. I could turn back time and do it differently. And I have trouble finding any value really in regret, Remorse, guilt, these things have a. Have a kind of healing function. But regret seems to be a kind of pure fantasy and also addictive to boot.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, I haven't thought of it that way, but you're right. I mean, regret is pretty useless. It's the, you know, if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have done that. Well, too late.

[Daniel Smith]

Yeah.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, there's no. Yeah, there's no value here.

[Daniel Smith]

There's. There's no value except in hearing what you're doing and remembering that there's no value in it. And that usually you can actually still change things. You can still adjust your circumstances. You can still act. Regret tells you that you can turn back time and change the situation. And it could be, in an imaginative sense, kind of addictive because you can go back and imagine the way things could have been. What you're not doing during that imagination is remembering and recognizing that you could usually still change your own lot. You could still make amends. You can still move forward. You can still change your life. You get stuck in regret. People get stuck in regret. And I. I could be prone to this as well. You're just not. You're not remembering that.

[Mike Carruthers]

But maybe regret can be a teacher. Well, I won't do that again.

[Daniel Smith]

It doesn't seem to work that way. I think it's because my understanding of regret is you do in fact somehow go back in your mind to this thing and replay it in your head, and that somehow reduces the distress. I don't think we often think of it this way, but my understanding of regret, having done a deep dive into it, is. That's what happens. You're distressed about your current circumstances. You go back in time in your own head, and that makes you feel better for a moment. But then, of course, you have to wake up to where you are again, and you feel even more distressed because here you are like waking from a dream, and then you have to go back into the regret again. So regret has an addictive quality. I don't know if people who are prone to regret, who. It actually helps them. Like, I don't think actually people learn very much from their regrets. They seem to just get caught in them.

[Mike Carruthers]

So help me understand something, because I can imagine someone listening to this might think, well, wait a minute, he's saying he gets annoyed, and so he's accepting that as that's what happens to him. And you could take someone who gets really angry and. But, but there are consequences to that. People feel that anger. People feel that annoyance from you. And, and are we supposed to just go, oh, well, you know, I'm prone to outbursts and screaming and yelling, but that's just me. And I'm not going to try to fix that. I'm just going to try to accept that.

[Daniel Smith]

No, I don't. I hear what you're saying, and I don't think I'm saying that at all. I'm, I'm certainly not endorsing acting on these emotions. If you're someone who gets angry a lot and you're screaming at your family and it's causing problems interpersonally, it's causing problems in your relationships, absolutely. Learn to contain your outbursts. Learn to find ways to, to alleviate your anger. But, but that usually doesn't mean erasing it. That usually doesn't mean being, becoming someone who has sort of banished or cured anger in your life. It usually means, at least in clinical terms, understanding why you've become someone who gets so easily angry. Usually anger is trying to tell you that you feel easily demeaned. You're not just someone who gets angry. You're someone who feels threatened by abandonment. You're someone who feels threatened by being engulfed by other people. You're someone who feels like your voice isn't listened to or that other people don't understand you. The anger itself is, is a solution, a bad solution, usually if you're acting on it to some other problem.

[Mike Carruthers]

So talk about shame, because that's one that people don't talk about much at all. I imagine everybody, probably everybody has something in their past they feel shame about. And I, you know, I never heard anyone really discuss the topic. So discuss the topic.

[Daniel Smith]

Shame is a little bit different from guilt, from which it usually needs to be distinguished. Guilt is the feeling that I've done something wrong. Shame is the feeling and the belief that I am wrong. Shame is a kind of totalizing emotion. It's about being seen and being seen as fundamentally wrong, fundamentally off that there's something, there's something inherently problematic and dirty about the self itself. The prototypical response to shame is, is to hide people. People who experience shame usually respond to it in one of two ways. Either they become enraged, because if you become enraged, then you could scare others away and get them to stop seeing you for what you know yourself to be, which is wrong, or, or dissociation and hiding a sort of blanking out of the self. People who become ashamed often have trouble thinking straight. The thing that interests me most about shame is the way it transmits between people, usually within families. You can have overtly shaming parents who keep telling you that you're bad, or you can have a sort of shame environment. This is the thing that really interests me about emotions and in particular about shame is the way that you could take them on almost by osmosis. You could learn from, from the ways other people, usually your caregiver givers, the ways that, that they live and operate emotionally and adopt those ways. Shame, I think that happens most powerfully if you have, if you have parents who feel powerful shame, you can grow up in an environment where you then will, without knowing why, learn that shame isn't, is a natural response to normal flaws in your own life or your own way of being normal. Difficulties. There's a psychiatrist who has discussed shame as an implosion of the self. And I've always, that's always resonated with me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what do we do with all of this? I mean, given your perspective on this, what is it you want people to, to walk away with and go, oh, okay, now I, now I, now that that's helpful.

[Daniel Smith]

What I want is for people to accept that their emotional lives are not made worse, but in fact enriched by having even the darker and shadowy parts that they're, they're natural, inextinguishable aspects of what it means to be human. I, I, I believe very deeply that suffering is compounded by the belief that there are wrong parts of the self. I don't want people to be morbid or always thinking about their quote unquote negative selves. I just want people, including myself, to be honest. I feel envy now. I feel shame, I feel regret, I feel angry, I feel sad. I feel lost. Once you name these things, once you can talk about them, once you could reflect on them, you're going to feel better.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it is a topic that I think a lot of us turn away from. We don't want to dig too deep, we just as soon ignore them or push them away. But these emotions, the negative emotions, are as you say, they're important because they are there. I've been speaking with Daniel Smith. He is a psychotherapist and author of the book Hard Finding the Wisdom in Our Darkest Emotions and there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Daniel, thank you.

[Daniel Smith]

Thanks Mike. I really appreciate all your time. It was really nice to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

Have you ever noticed that someone can actually become more attractive the longer you interact with them? Science says that may be because attraction isn't just about looks. It's also about attention and connection. Newer research using eye tracking technology has found that the faces people focus on the most are often judged as more attractive. In other words, attention itself appears to boost attraction. And there's more. Studies also show that people who seem emotionally in sync with us, mirroring our rhythms, expressions or behavior, are rated as more appealing and desirable. Researchers say attraction may work less like a lightning bolt and more like a spotlight. The more mentally and emotionally engaged you become with someone, the more attractive they can appear over time. So maybe love isn't always at first sight. Sometimes it's at second site or third or tenth. And that is something you should know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone you know. The player that you're listening to this on most likely has a share function and it's easy to do. It helps us. It helps us grow our audience and we appreciate it. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Blinds.com Announcer]

Did you know if your windows are bare? Indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Turn the temperature down with blinds.com and get up to 50% off custom window treatments like solar roller shades and more during the Memorial Day Mega Sale. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro handle everything, we've got you free samples, real design experts and zero pressure. Just help when you need it. This is your last chance to shop up to 50% off site wide during the Memorial Day mega [e-mail] rules and restrictions apply.