C (6:31)

Hi, thanks so much. It's a pleasure.

B (6:34)

So can you explain what intuition is? Is it a thing or is it just a word to describe your collective wisdom that you pull up to make decisions?

C (6:45)

I think it's a little bit of both. Intuition is absolutely a real thing. But where we go wrong with intuition is that we all sort of have a lay definition of what we think, intuition and gut feel. And when we don't actually have an accurate, a scientific definition of what it is and how it operates, that's where it can lead us astray. But when we really understand what it is and how we can hone it, harness it, and train it, that's when it actually is a superpower. That's when it can be trained to help us make the right decision, attain greater levels of achievement. And then it truly becomes something that when they say intuition doesn't ultimately lie, your gut feel doesn't lie, that's when it absolutely, you know, when we accomplish that.

B (7:35)

But can you explain what exactly is it? What is your intuition?

C (7:41)

It's our brain's intelligent synthesis of both external data. So it absolutely is data, but also the entirety of our personal experiences. And that's where it culminates in this summary, this. This executive summary that is data plus our personal experiences.

B (8:00)

Okay, so what is the science of it? What is the scientific explanation of what my intuition is?

C (8:07)

Yeah, the first piece of it is that it's actually a process. And during this process, what's happening is our brain is not thinking in a linear way, right? We tend to do lots of things linearly, right? We read books linearly. We put together to do lists and work through the to do list linearly. But intuition is actually not something that's very linear, right? So what's happening is that we're both. We're both taking into account signals that are hitting us at the moment. We notice the smell of something. We notice the way that someone's tone, how they're speaking to us, right? But we're also blending together lots of things that are happening or have happened, things that we call our priors, right? So this is our prior experiences, our expertise, our background, and what we're doing is we're sort of combining those things.

B (9:05)

But it seems that in that mix of things you're combining could be emotions, biases, tendencies that could cloud your judgment.

C (9:18)

And, you know, this is where I sort of, you know, I. I love this sort of analogy that I sometimes talk about. You know, emotions are sort of like children, right? You don't want them driving your car because they're going to crash it, but you also don't shove your. Your children in the trunk because they might die. Right? You want your children in the backseat where they can be seen and heard and attended to, but they're not actually fully in control. Right? And I sort of love this metaphor because that's sort of what's happening during this process, this intuiting process. We're not supposed to suppress our emotions. We're supposed to give it the right seat. Emotions are a part of the process. They just shouldn't be steering. And so this is where a lot of people get mixed up, because we tend to treat gut feel like it's an emotion, but what we're really doing is processing it. We are. It's more layered. It's more nuanced. It's this lived experience where we're subconsciously sometimes engaging in pattern recognition and using our memory. And all of this is rolled into an internal executive summary that then whispers to us. It whispers to us quietly and calmly and confidently.

B (10:34)

And so is intuition something you turn on and off, or is intuition something that just speaks to you? And here's my example. So you're walking down the street, and you're gonna turn down this dark alley, and then you say, no, I'm not gonna turn down that dark alley. Look, it's a dark alley. Is that my intuition? Is that common sense? Is that a thought process of just solving a problem before it happens? What is that?

C (11:00)

That is your gut feel. That is your intuition. It has common sense rolled into it as well. So it's certainly, you know, common sense is a part of it. But that's a spidey sense, right, that you might have. You might not exactly be able to explain why you shouldn't turn down that. That. That dark alley. But you are. You are feeling something. There is something that is there. And it might be because you recognize patterns, right? That dark. Something dark. You've walked down a dark alley before and you felt scared or you've been under danger or something. There's patterns there. There's memories there. There's emotions there. There's physical manifestations there. And so what happens is that our gut Feel actually presents itself to us in three different ways. One of three ways. And all of us have the ability to feel one of those three things. They're either eureka moments, spidey senses, or jolts. But how each of those present themselves to each of us is very unique. Right. You might feel something in the pit of your stomach. Somebody else might start to get a headache or start to feel panicky. Somebody else might feel it in their shoulders or some sort of soreness. Right. We feel it differently. But we all experience Eureka moments, spidey senses and jolts.

B (12:24)

Wait a minute. I never thought of intuition as causing you discomfort or pain. I thought it was a revelation of thought, not. I'm feeling it in my lower back.

C (12:37)

Oh. It absolutely has a physical piece to it as well. So it's not necessarily positive or negative in nature. It's something that is inspiring you to action. And maybe that action is not going down that dark alley that you mentioned. Maybe it is leaving a certain career trajectory that you've been going down, but now you decide to go down a different avenue. Maybe it is moving to a different city. Maybe, you know, all of these are inspiring some type of action, and they're based on a judgment or a gut feel judgment that you're making.

B (13:16)

But what makes them so special? Because they can be and probably often are wrong. You come to a decision based on your intuition, and it turns out you were incorrect. So how special was that?

C (13:30)

There's a couple of things that, in terms of intuition, when I spoke earlier about your intuition doesn't lie, your gut feel doesn't lie. The first is around the type of problem that you're trying to solve. And again, this goes back to the science of intuition. There are four different types of problems that are out there. There are simple problems, there are complicated problems, there are complex problems, and there are chaotic problems. Right. And these are very, very different types of problems that are out there. With the simple problems, the ones that have some sort of probabilistic outcome, there is actually a right answer. We don't need our intuition. Right. For complicated problems, which are just actually a series of simple problems, we also don't need our intuition. But sometimes we use our intuition anyways for those types of problems, and they might lead us astray. With complex and chaotic problems, the best we're going to do is get 80% of the information that we need. There's always going to be some information that's missing. And that's why we need to trust and rely on our intuition. Something you said earlier though that I think is really relevant to this piece as well, is how do we know that it's not not just something you know? How do we know that we should be paying attention to this? Well, gut feel doesn't shout, right? It's. It's quiet. It whispers. And this is where I always. Where I always tell people we need to be better at listening to what whispers and not what screams, right? We are. Our gut feel is always there. We might just not be noticing it, or we might be pushing it aside or ignoring it because it's quiet and it's whispering. And we live in this society now where there is so much that is shouting at us, so much that is loud.

B (15:24)

We're discussing your intuition, what it is and how to use it. And I'm speaking with Laura Huang. She is a professor at Northeastern University and author of the book, you Already Know the Science of Mastering youg Intuition. Huge Savings on Dell AI PCs are here, and it's a big deal. Why? Because Dell AI PCs with Intel Core Ultra processors are newly designed to help you do more faster. It's pretty amazing what they can do in a day's work. They can generate code, edit images, multitask without lag, draft emails, summarize documents, create live translations. They can even extend your battery life so you never have to worry about forgetting your charger. It's like having a personal assistant built right into your PC to cover the menial tasks so you can focus on what matters. That's the power of Dell AI with Intel inside with deals on Dell AI PCs like the Dell 16 plus, starting at $749.99, it's the perfect time to refresh your tech and take back your time. Upgrade your AI PC today by visiting Dell.com deals. That's Dell. You know, it usually takes a lot for me to get excited about clothes shopping, but with fall and cooler weather coming, I'm actually looking forward to stocking up at Quint's. See, they've become my go to for fall staples that actually last cashmere, denim boots, you name it. The quality really holds up and the prices are a lot lower than you'd expect. See, here's the thing. Shopping online, my biggest worry is always Is it really going to look and feel as good when it shows up as it did online? Well, with Quince, it always does. I've got a couple of their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They just start at 60 bucks and they are unbelievably soft. Their denim fits great and wears really well. And their leather jackets, I haven't bought one yet. But that clean, classic look without the big price tag is very enticing. And what I love is that Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're getting top quality fabrics and craftsmanship for about half the price of the fancy brands. I've got polo shirts from them I practically live in and people ask me all the time where I got them. And I just ordered a new dress shirt. Look, if you want to keep it classic and cool this fall, upgrade with long lasting staples from Quince, go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.comsysk free shipping and 365 day returns at quince.comsysk so Laura, here's what often happens. So you have a decision to make and you sit down and you write down all the pros and all the cons. Maybe you're gonna thinking about moving to a new city or something. And you talk to your friends and I've thought this through and somebody says, well, what does your gut tell you? And the implication or what I infer from that is that somehow that's a better voice, that your gut will show you the way. But I don't know that that's true. It's just maybe another voice. But there is this implication that your gut feeling trumps everything.

C (19:07)

When you actually have gone through the exercise of understanding what your gut feel is and understanding that there is this process and there is this outcome, your gut feel does trump everything. And the reason why is because your gut feel already embeds that pro con list. And not only does it have that pro con list in it, but it also understands that there are nuances where you change one variable and everything in that pro con list is also going to change, right? That job ends up being in Chicago rather than New York. Well, many of those things on your pro con list may now shift, right? You change one variable and the entire equation now needs to be balanced. And unless you use your gut feel, you're not taking into account that those pros and cons and the people you've talked to and all of the experiences you have and everything that you're triangulating fits together in a different way.

B (20:09)

But then how do you know that's right?

C (20:13)

Well, what it is is because it's a process. You take that action and you're constantly sort of tweaking and iterating to make that Decision the right, the right one for you. So let me give you an example, right? So like flipping a coin, for example, when we're making a decision and we're flipping a coin, like, oh, I should do this or I should do that. I flip a coin, it says heads. Okay, I'm now going to do that. That moment that you flip the coin, there's going to be a feeling where you are thinking, I'm glad that it was heads because now I get to take option A. Or there's a moment where you say, ugh, I wish it was tails because then I would have been told to take option B. There, embedded in that, that is your gut feel. You're getting a signal and you can follow that even though you flipped the coin and it told you one direction or not because you noticed that split second feeling of I'm glad it was heads or I wish it was tails. You take that decision and you will make that the right decision, right? Because you follow your gut feel and then you course correct whatever you need to do to make that decision the right one. So it's not sort of a, oh, how do I even know? Or then how do I know? Or then how do I know? And constantly sort of second guessing yourself. You're taking that summary judgment that moment and you're trusting it because you've put in the work, you've put in the effort to really hone it, to harness it and train it.

B (21:47)

So oftentimes people are faced with a decision like you get offered a job and you have an immediate reaction that I really want this job. But then you go through this process of pros and cons and should I or shouldn't I? And what the implications. And then you use your quote, intuition to come back to that initial reaction and say, well, my gut told me to do it. Well, was that your gut that told you to do it or was that just seems like a good idea? Or I mean, what's the difference at.

C (22:21)

The moment where you thought, I really, really want this job, right? And you keep coming back to I really, really want this job, regardless of all of the due diligence that you're doing, the pros and cons lists and all of those sort of things, right? If you realize that I really want that job came from somewhere, then that is the. That is that you know that catalyst for making that decision, right? A trick that you can use even at the very, at any stage upon, at any stage along this process is you ask yourself, right? Am I acting from clarity or am I. Or is it from a feeling I haven't yet named? If I was completely calm, would I be still making the same decision? And if the answer is yes, it's probably gut feel. If the answer is no, it might be something else. It might be someone else trying to convince you of something. It might be some sort of emotion that you haven't figured out. Those are the things that you can do. You can also, if you're feeling urgency pushing you towards some decision, give it 24 hours. If it's truly your gut, that clarity will remain.

B (23:29)

But isn't there a concern that when you have that gut feeling in the beginning, when you go, oh, I really want this job, and then you go to do your due diligence to see if it really is a good idea, since you've already pretty much decided you're going to be looking for things that confirm your decision rather than really being objective about, maybe this really isn't such a great idea.

C (23:53)

You will continue to have those maybe this was, maybe this isn't such a great idea kind of feelings come up. That's the whisper. The whisper isn't, oh, I really, really want this job. It's what keeps coming back to you. What's that clarity that continues to come back to you? What's that, that feeling that continues to come back to that you might be pushing away? What are those whispers that you continue to be pushing away in favor of something else?

B (24:23)

Can somebody else's intuition guide you? Could your mother say, yeah, I just. Sweetie, I just don't think that's a. Knowing you as I do. I don't think that's a good idea.

C (24:35)

Absolutely not. So our intuition is personal to us because we do not have the same experiences, the same background, the same personality, the same any of the same things as anybody else. Each of us is unique, and therefore each of us are going to have our own unique intuition and gut feel. So, meaning if I'm experiencing something and I'm trying to make a decision, your gut feel might tell you something very, very different than my gut feel. And your gut feel is going to lead you in one direction, mine's going to lead me in another direction. And it's going to be the right decision for each of us because we do have very different backgrounds, personalities, life experiences, and so on and so forth.

B (25:19)

So what I really want to get a handle on here is, is intuition the thing you use to make a decision every time that at the end of the road, it's basically up to your intuition? Or is intuition an option that you can disregard and go in a different direction. Or is intuition always the deciding thing?

C (25:41)

It's always the deciding thing for complex and chaotic problems where there is not a definitive right or wrong solution. But it is never the thing that you should rely on for simple problems or even complicated problems where there is a definitive, correct, probabilistic answer.

B (26:03)

So comment on this. It just kind of came to me that, because I've, I've also heard that in much in life, when you have a decision to make, it isn't so much the decision any decision could work, but it's your commitment to the decision. And if you feel good about your ability to use your intuition, it makes the decision better because you feel confident about the decision regardless of what you end up choosing.

C (26:33)

Absolutely. If you use your gut feel and you know where that came from, you make it the right decision. You make it the right decision for yourself in all of the subsequent things, all of the subsequent actions that you take.

B (26:48)

So can you make your intuition better? Can you develop it and be more intuitive? Or your intuition is your intuition. That's what you got and that's what you got?

C (26:59)

No, no, absolutely. There's a tutorial, like, there's a way to actually train it. So an exercise might be something as simple. And I have a series of different things, but one example is when you're brushing your teeth. If you're right handed and you're normally used to brushing your teeth with your right hand, you're so called an expert. If you now take the opportunity to brush your hand using your left hand, right? You brush your teeth using your left hand, you start noticing things. You start noticing things like, oh, like this feels kind of awkward or hey, I'm missing this part of my mouth that I usually maybe don't brush as well on, or oh, my gums kind of like hurt a little bit on this side and you start to notice things even though you're an expert. And that helps you start to embed different data points and different, you know, considerations even into just brushing your teeth. Now you can think if you do this in other aspects of your life with different exercises and different ways that I encourage that I, that I teach around. How do you practice being a novice? It expands your mental models, your schemas, your prototypes, the ways that you think about things and allows you to make better judgments and decisions in the long term.

B (28:14)

Well, great one, I now have a much better understanding of what intuition is and what it's good for, what it's not good for. And how to use it. Laura Huang has been my guest. She is a Professor of Management and Organizational Development at Northeastern University and her book is called you Already the Science of Mastering youg Intuition and there is a link to her book if you'd like to buy it in the show notes for this episode. Thanks Laura. This was really insightful.

C (28:42)

All right, thank you so much.

B (28:45)

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D (33:01)

Hi Mike, Nice to be here.

B (33:03)

So of course there's math and science in music, just as there is math and science involved in how my car works. But I don't need to know all that much about the science of how my car works to drive and enjoy driving my car. And most people don't know that much about the science and math of music yet they still enjoy it. So why do we need to explore this?

D (33:27)

Well, of course you don't have to know about the science of music to enjoy it. Thank goodness we can all sit back and listen to a, you know, Beethoven symphony or, or the Beatles without knowing the physics of what's going on. Nevertheless, it's an intriguing story and it's an important story to tell because these three areas have evolved together right from the dawn of civilization and pre civilization, actually pre history. So I think it's a story to. Well, it's not necessary, you know, to your everyday life to know about these things, but I just think it's an interesting story to tell and one that hasn't really been dealt with that much in the past.

B (34:11)

So give me a quick story, a quick example of how science and music.

D (34:16)

Intersect well, for example, we all know that Stradivari violin self astronomical amount, you know, millions of dollars. And these violins were made in the, I suppose, late 17th, early 18th century in Cremona area of Italy. And there's something about them makes them different than, you know, other violins. Otherwise they wouldn't be so expensive. They have a very rich tone to them. So what is it about them that is different? Well, the wood, the woods from which these violins were made came from forests that grew in what we call the Little Ice Age, which about between the 16th and 19th century where global temperatures were lower than normal. Now what this meant was that the trees didn't grow as much in summer as they would have done otherwise. And the growth rates were low throughout the year, similar in winter to summer. So that meant that the woods in these trees was very hard. And if you make a violin from hard wood, it's going to have a greater resonance than if you make it from wood that has, you know, gaps in it, as it were, gaps in the tissue issue. So why was there a Little Ice age? Because the amount of heat that we got from the sun was lower. Sun goes through phases where it gives us less radiation at times than others. And so these violins have this wonderful tone because of the density of the wood, which in turn is related to the behavior of our neighborhood star. So you've got there a direct. Well, it's not an obvious connection, but it certainly exists between the musical sounds an instrument makes and the behavior of our nearest star.

B (36:01)

So talk about the Beatles and the science there. Because as you had mentioned a moment ago, you know, a lot of musicians don't. I mean, they didn't even read music, let alone know about the science of it all. But, but what is the science of it, of the Beatles?

D (36:15)

What was it? What was special about the Beatles? Well, they emerged at a certain time. They obviously had a natural talent between them, McCartney and Lennon in songwriting. They were aided by advances in technology at the time in studio equipment and had a good, very good musical director as well. And so these ingredients came together. What's interesting about the Beatles actually is if you try to play along with some of the early tracks, say from the, you know, one of the original albums, the first one or two, you play along with your guitar, say as I, as I've done, and you tune your guitar to what you think is the concert P, where a middle A is 440 cycles per second, that would be what you'd get off your tuning fork. You'll find that you're actually out of tune with what the Beatles were playing. Now that doesn't mean the Beatles were playing badly or they were purposely playing out of tune. But what they did was they would, they'd roll up to the studio, they didn't have much money so they had to tune into whatever instrument was available which was usually the upright piano. And if that piano happened to be not in concert pitch, neither would their instruments be. So they were in tune with themselves but not with for example what an orchestra would have been. So that was one of the curiosities of early studio recording. You get some of these songs that are on these well known albums and they're not actually in the pitch that they really should be in.

B (37:46)

Isn't that interesting? You would think that that's something that you, that you'd get right if you're going to record a song.

D (37:53)

Well, it is right. I mean in the sense that, you know, they didn't write music for others to play along with. In a sense they didn't really think about it. They were in a hurry to get recorded so they all rolled in with their instruments which would presumably be all out of tune because guitars equally easily out of tune. So what would they do is they would, they would tune into whatever instrument was available and would and would be in tune with itself at least and that would be generally the piano. So if the piano was a few cycles per second out of true pitch, that's what the piece would be played in. And you find this quite a lot in the early Beatles. It can be sometimes a little bit high, sometimes a little bit low. They're all in tune with each other so it sounds great but it's just not in standard tuning. Of course they had to fix that eventually because they started playing with orchestral instruments and you can't expect an orchestra to you tuned to whatever you happen to be tuned in. You have to, it's the other way around. So these days you don't. You find that that doesn't happen. Of course, you're the electronic tuners and all the rest of it. So that's not necessarily a problem. But you do find it back in the the 60s music.

B (39:01)

So throughout history new instruments have, have come and have any of those instruments messed with the science of music? Have they been revolutionary and changed things things?

D (39:15)

The piano is the biggie because once you get a keyboard instrument like that, I mean if you've got a string instrument for example, you can easily retune it or if you've got a wind instrument you could Have a variety of wind instruments. They're fairly simple. So you could have, for example, a variety of flutes where the holes are at different places, spacings. But something as big as say a church organ or a piano, you know, it's fixed. You can't go around retuning the piano every time you want to play in a different key. So they did have a big effect on music. And that's what led to equal temperament. And that's kind of what drove the changes to the modern system of music. But there's no instrument which really kind of broke the rules. They all follow science. They all have to play together. Ultimately, of course, eventually we ended up with electronic instruments which can play any sound you want because they're created artificially. And that changed how music sounds in the modern age. But they all have to follow the rules of physics ultimately and they all have to sound good when played together. It's just that the physics behind them is quite different. And music has evolved to accommodate greater complexity as time has gone on.

B (40:27)

Well, what you just said about electronic instruments being able to make any sound, but I like to think that I can tell the difference between a real violin and a fake violin. The fake violin sound of an electronic instrument that they can't really get it, it perfect.

D (40:45)

Well, it's, it can, it can be, it can be so close that it's sometimes very hard to tell. You're probably right. It depends on how sharp your ear is. I work with a, with a musician, a musical director that he's got a fantastic ear. He can pick things out that I just go over my head, you know, but, but certainly a synthetic violin that you could, for example, produce on a, a home studio, it's, it's so close that, you know, you wouldn't want to bring in a full orchestra to, to replace what it sounds good enough. I mean, it's, it's so good that if you looked at the waveforms, you'd be hard pressed to see much of it. And it's getting closer and closer all the time. So I think the, the strides certainly, you know, in the last decade or so have been so great that, you know, it's, it's as, it's as, it's as good as you can, you know, that's as good as you need it really, in most cases.

B (41:40)

Tell me another story of the science of music that most people probably don't know. That was really instrumental. Instrumental in the instrumental music business.

D (41:54)

Exactly. Yeah. Well, if you look at a fellow such as Einstein, he was A very, very good amateur musician, violinist in particular. He also played the piano. And he. I think he said that, you know, in another life he would have been a musician. And, and music was vitally important to him. If he got stuck on something, you know, stuck on an aspect of his theory or mathematics of it, general relativity, for example, he would take himself into another room and he would just play. And he would play composers that he believed were inspired. And by that I mean composers that believed that the music they composed was not coming from themselves, but was coming from outside the actors, like as aerials. And I think a lot of musicians say this, you know, that they, they just received a song or they received a piece of music. They were just receptive to it, you know. And Einstein was very much into this way of thinking. So he would play pieces that he believed had been essentially given to these composers. And, and he, and he's said many, many times in his writings and his speeches that that's where he got him inspiration for his science. He would do this, he would play his music, and then he would sit down again. And very often there was the answer, because he believed that the inspiration for his theories again came from outside. It wasn't him thinking away and being a genius and inventing stuff. He was just being receptive. He was, he was open enough to these ideas that were already out there in the cosmos, Moss. And he was able then to put them down on paper. So he drew a direct parallel between musical inspiration and scientific inspiration. And he used music to, to drive his own progress. And so did Max Planck as well. He was, he was one of the pioneers of quantum mechanics. And he was a very, very good organist, keyboard player, pianist. And he said that he could easily have gone into music as a career. And, and he also drew inspiration for his own theorizing from playing music. So there's just a direct parallel. And these are some of the greatest scientists who've. In the 20th century who've said this.

B (44:08)

I wanted to ask you about the science of sad songs. And sad songs are oftentimes in the eye of the listener. But there are songs that I think most people would agree with. Yeah, it's kind of a sad song. So is there a science to that? If you want to create a sad song, is there something called sad music? And there's a science to it?

D (44:34)

Well, if we talk about happy and sad, it's obviously a pretty sharp distinction. You could have things in between there. But if, for example, I'm speaking to you, let's say I was Going to give you some bad news, not something terrible. Let's say, for example, I've just put in a proposal, or you, you knew about it. I was putting in a proposal for a new book, and I'm now going to tell you what the outcome was. I might say, oh, Mike, you know, you know that proposal I put in for, for a book? Well, the publishers rejected it, so that didn't work out too well. Or if I gave you the good news that it had been accepted, I would say, hey, Mike, guess what? You know, that proposal I put in, they accepted it. You know, one's sad, one's happy. What's the difference? Well, in, in the first case, I was talking very flat. You know, my speech wasn't varying very much. It was within a kind of a fairly narrow range. And it was slow as well, was the other one. It was bouncy, it was covering quite a rim. Voice was going up and down, all the rest of it. So that's, that's what happens in speech. The same thing happens in music. You know, if you think of a sad synchrony, the funeral march, you know, it sounds. It sounds so depressing, but if you speed it up, you're done. You know, all of a sudden it sounds like a Jewish wedding song. You know, it depends how the music is presented very often, but that's not universal because in some cultures it can be reversed. So that what seems to us sad had, you know, they, they take to be. That's pretty upbeat. You're not. Not upbeat in the sense of fast, but it makes them feel joyous. So a lot of it has to do this sort of cultural thing as well. And if we're brought up to think that, you know, low and slow and within a limited range is sad, that's what our music will be. So that's, that's a kind of a simple. Obviously what's going on in the brain is pretty complicated, but I think there's a direct relationship between our speech and how we receive music.

B (46:40)

There's something about music and the brain that I assume is science. And I'll give you an example so you can comment on it rather than try to explain it. I'll just give you some examples of what I've heard that there are singers, musicians. Tony Bennett is a singer and Glen Campbell as a guitar player. Both of them had dementia in their later years. But Tony Bennett could still remember all the lyrics to his songs. Glen Campbell could still play the guitar like crazy, even though he had trouble remembering names and faces and Things. What is that?

D (47:18)

Well, I mean, I could give you another example is my mom, she. When she was young and when I was a little kid, she was a very good amateur soprano singer. So she was singing operatic stuff, you know, now, and she would sing it around the house. So I'd be downstairs playing with my toys, and she'd be upstairs doing something, and she would be singing in full voice, you know, like an opera singer, which to most people would seem quite strange, but to me, because it was happening every day, it was just a normal thing, my friends would come in and say, you know, where's that coming from? I said, it's just my mom singing. They think it was on the radio or something. So later in life, towards the end of her life, she. She. She had Alzheimer's. But the strange thing was, and. And I think many people have seen this too, is that if something came on the radio, a song on the radio that she knew from when she was young, all of a sudden she remembered the lyrics, remember the tune, and she'd be singing along with it, just like the old days, you know, even after she could barely form a sentence. So that had a powerful effect on me because I thought, there's something going on here, that music is different. You know, there's parts. Parts of the brain that are not affected as much by Alzheimer's. The musical ability at least, is not as touched. And of course, these days, Alzheimer's choirs, dementia choirs, are springing up everywhere because people are, you know, realizing the benefits that music brings to community singing. But people with Alzheimer's who can still enjoy life, they can become alive when they're singing music. So music has this almost sort of magical effect.

B (48:58)

Well, I like that. I like that there's magic to music, because, yes, there's science and math in music, but that doesn't make music science. It is an art. And there's some magic to it. I think there has to be another thing.

D (49:14)

Is music universal? And this is where I think it is, because it's mathematical in its basis. So you probably know that we've got a couple of spacecraft that are now in interstellar Space, the Voyagers 1 and 2. And they both have an LP essentially, attached to the side, carrying 90 minutes of music, everything from Beethoven to Chuck Berry, you know, samples of their music, even with a little. So it's just like a regular lp. And they've even included a little stylus so they've. If any aliens find it, they can figure out how to play it.

B (49:49)

It.

D (49:50)

And it makes you wonder if would they recognize it as music? Do they have music? And would we recognize what they play as music? I believe we would, because there are common elements to all of the varieties of human music which are tremendously varied. I mean, they might have different hearing, for example. They might, might have different styles of music. I think we still recognize it as, as music. So I think it kind of has like a cosmic significance as well as being something human related. And certainly there's music in the, the animal world. I mean, gorilla, gorilla mothers, for example, will hum to their young just as human mothers do, you know, sort of make up a little lullaby on the spot. So it goes beyond human experience, certainly. And I believe that if there is, you know, intelligence out there, that it will have a form of music too, and we would probably recognize it as music.

B (50:50)

You know, we've talked before about how music is universal. Every culture has some form of music. Music goes way, way back before anybody knows. But do we have any, any idea what, like, what's the oldest musical instrument that's ever been found?

D (51:07)

Earliest, possibly the earliest is called the Neanderthal flute, which has been dated to 50 to 60, found in a cave in Slovenia, and it was found near a hearth that was used by Neanderthals. So we're not even talking about modern humans here. And it's a bone of a bone of a cave bear, a young cave bear. And there's been holes bored in it at certain spacings. And replicas of this flute have been made today. And you can actually play tunes on it. You can play, you know, intervals that today we would be playing are represented on this flute, which is 50,000 plus years old. And certainly by 40,000 years ago, we were finding bone flutes with many holes in them, and these were obviously being used as musical instruments. So the origins of music go back tens of thousands of years, but obviously before that, you know, you can't record songs. They evaporate. So we've lost touch with the origins of music. But certainly we know that by around 50,000 years ago, humans and pre humans were playing musical instruments which can play tunes that we would recognize today.

B (52:32)

Well, certainly music touches everybody's life and it's fun to hear about the science and, and the history of it. David Darling has been my guest. He is a science writer and a music producer, and he's author of the book A Perfect Harmony. Music, Mathematics and Science. There's a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you, David.

D (52:52)

Thanks a lot, Mike. Pleasure.

B (52:57)

If you live in an area that has Mosquitoes, then. You know, one of the good things about the end of summer is is the mosquitoes tend to go away. Have you ever wondered why it's so hard to avoid mosquitoes? Well, the answer is because they're really good at finding you. They pick up the scent of carbon dioxide. That's the gas we exhale. They detect that and they can smell it from up to 30ft away. They then use their visual sense to determine if you are a person or other appropriate creature. Then when they get close, they sense your body heat to help them zoom in on just the right spot. Mosquitoes are attracted to some people more than others and that seems to have to do with microbes on your skin. Some of those microbes on some people seem to repel mosquitoes. However, mosquitoes do seem to go for beer drinkers, microbes or not. And that is something you should know. We love that word of mouth advertising. That's how we get new listeners is when you tell people that you know about this podcast and clue them in so they can give a listen. So it would be appreciated if you would share this podcast or tell people about it and help us grow our audience. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. Limu Cat and Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music.

D (54:31)

Limu.

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Save yourself money today. Increase your wealth.

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Customize and save.

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We save. That may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings vary underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts.

E (54:53)

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

F (54:55)

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

E (55:04)

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

F (55:08)

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas and.

E (55:13)

I don't he's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dune 2 is overrated.

B (55:17)

It is.

E (55:19)

Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast. We talk about good movies, critical hits.

F (55:25)

Fan favorites, must sees, and in case.

E (55:27)

You missed ems, we're talking the Home.

F (55:29)

Alone from Grease to the Dark Knight.

E (55:31)

We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look.

F (55:36)

And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, like Kanja and Hess.

E (55:40)

So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

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Listen to unspooled wherever you get your.

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D (55:49)

Ra.