How to Master Small Talk & Why We Do Things Without Knowing Why- SYSK Choice

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How to Master Small Talk & Why We Do Things Without Knowing Why"

Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guests:

• Deborah Fine, Author of The Fine Art of Small Talk
• Helena Bashi, Psychologist and Author of Why We Do What We Do
  Release Date: February 8, 2025

---

Introduction

In this insightful episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers explores the often-overlooked art of small talk and delves into the subconscious motivations behind our daily actions. By inviting experts Deborah Fine and Helena Bashi, Mike aims to provide listeners with practical tools to enhance their communication skills and a deeper understanding of human behavior.

---

Mastering Small Talk with Deborah Fine

Redefining Small Talk
Deborah Fine begins by challenging the negative perceptions surrounding small talk. She emphasizes its fundamental role in building and nurturing relationships across various contexts—social, romantic, and professional.

• Key Insight:
  "Small talk is the appetizer for any relationship."
  —Deborah Fine [04:43]

The Importance of Small Talk
Fine argues that every meaningful relationship starts with small talk, serving as the foundation upon which deeper connections are built. Without effective small talk, conversations can stagnate, preventing relationships from evolving.

Tools for Effective Small Talk
Deborah introduces two primary strategies to enhance small talk:

1. Digging Deeper
   Instead of settling for superficial responses, Fine encourages probing further to elicit more meaningful dialogue.

   • Example Quote:
     "What keeps you busy outside of your work?"
     —Deborah Fine [08:08]

2. Playing the Conversation Game
   This involves providing specific information to keep the conversation flowing, rather than generic replies like "Nothing much."

   • Example Quote:
     "When someone asks, 'What's been going on?' instead of saying 'Nothing,' share something specific like, 'I did a podcast with a guest who has over a million downloads.'"
     —Deborah Fine [12:25]

Avoiding Conversation Killers
Fine highlights common pitfalls that derail conversations, such as offering unsolicited advice or treating conversations as competitions. She stresses the importance of genuine interest and active listening.

• Notable Example:
  "If someone shares they're frustrated with their partner, responding with 'Why don't you just leave him?' is a conversation killer. Instead, express empathy like, 'Wow, that sounds rough. Is there anything I can do?'"
  —Deborah Fine [18:18]

Effective Icebreakers
Deborah debunks the myth of the "perfect icebreaker," advocating for using context-specific prompts to initiate conversations.

• Key Strategy:
  "Use free information about the occasion or location."
  —Deborah Fine [24:13]

  For instance, at a baby shower, asking, "How do you know the mom-to-be?" serves as a natural conversation starter.

---

Understanding Human Behavior with Helena Bashi

Why We Do What We Do
Helena Bashi shifts the focus to the subconscious drivers of our actions, explaining that much of our behavior occurs without deliberate thought.

• Insight:
  "We use language without being really intentional. We make decisions and we don't know what's underpinning them."
  —Helena Bashi [30:22]

Language and the Brain
Bashi delves into how the brain processes language, emphasizing its visual nature and emotional impact.

• Key Point:
  "The brain is negatively wired. So the brain tends to hook to negatively salient information over positive."
  —Helena Bashi [33:36]

Creativity and Its Decline
Referencing George Land's research, Bashi discusses the decline in creative thinking from childhood to adolescence, attributing it to educational systems that prioritize correct answers over divergent thinking.

• Notable Statistic:
  "At the age of five, children are naturally very curious and creative. By age 15, this ability had reduced to about 12%."
  —Helena Bashi [37:23]

Stress and the Brain
Bashi explains the modern mismatch between our ancient stress responses and today's chronic stressors, advocating for physical activity as a means to manage stress effectively.

• Practical Advice:
  "When we are feeling stressed, the best thing we can do is to do something physically active."
  —Helena Bashi [40:41]

Memory's Complex Nature
Addressing memory, Bashi highlights its malleability and the importance of recording experiences to preserve accurate recollections.

• Key Insight:
  "Memory is notoriously unique and unreliable. Every time we revisit a memory, we add something to it."
  —Helena Bashi [42:58]

Gut-Brain Connection
Bashi sheds light on the significant role of the gut in mental health, noting that a large portion of serotonin is produced in the gut, influencing our overall well-being.

• Insight:
  "The gut doesn't sit on its own. We can't look at the brain in isolation."
  —Helena Bashi [46:01]

---

Notable Quotes

• Deborah Fine:
  "Small talk is the appetizer for any relationship." ([04:43])

• Deborah Fine:
  "There's no such thing as a perfect icebreaker. If someone is willing to talk to you, almost anything will work that's not offensive." ([24:13])

• Helena Bashi:
  "The brain is negatively wired. So the brain tends to hook to negatively salient information over positive." ([33:36])

• Helena Bashi:
  "Memory is notoriously unique and unreliable. Every time we revisit a memory, we add something to it." ([42:58])

---

Conclusion

In this episode, Mike Carruthers successfully bridges the gap between mastering everyday conversations and understanding the deeper psychological mechanisms that drive human behavior. With actionable strategies from Deborah Fine and profound insights from Helena Bashi, listeners are empowered to enhance their social interactions and develop a more intentional approach to their actions and decisions.

---

Additional Resources

• Deborah Fine's Book: The Fine Art of Small Talk
  [Link in Show Notes]

• Helena Bashi's Book: Why We Do What We Do
  [Link in Show Notes]

---

By focusing on the intricate dance of small talk and the underlying reasons for our behaviors, this episode offers a comprehensive guide to improving both interpersonal skills and self-awareness, making it a valuable listen for anyone looking to enrich their personal and professional relationships.

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know. Why do you have eyebrows? Well, there are three reasons then. Small talk. It's really important to be good at it, and we're just not.

[Deborah Fine]

We ask these rhetorical questions and don't expect an answer. So we fall into these ruts. How you doing, Mike? Good. How are you, Deborah? Good. What's new? Nothing. What's new with you? Nothing. I mean, geez, where are we headed with this? That's where small talk needs a little help.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, if you use a teaspoon, your silverware drawer to take medicine, that's a problem. And why you do what you do and think the way you think.

[Helena Bashi]

For instance, the key thing to remember is the brain is negatively wired. And when we hear things about any bad news or receive negative feedback, it sticks. It becomes very cognitively sticky in the brain and it takes quite a lot to dislodge this.

[Mike Carruthers]

All this today on something you should know. Every time I've had to hire someone, it had to be done fast. But as I've discovered anyway, hiring can be very time consuming. And even still, there are no guarantees. Which is why when it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need, right? The trick to finding the right person is to make sure a lot of qualified people know about your job opening. And you see, Indeed has this thing called sponsor jobs. So your post jumps to the top of the page for relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want to reach faster. And it works. Now here's what I think is the magic of Indeed. They take this process of hiring, which is something you probably don't do a lot or feel really skilled at, and they guide you through it so you end up with the right person for the job quickly. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. You only pay for results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com something just go to Indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Something you should know, fascinating intel, the.

[Deborah Fine]

World'S top experts, and practical advice you.

[Mike Carruthers]

Can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome. There's a really interesting website, I don't know if you've ever seen it, called Mental Floss. It's full of really interesting information and I just came across this thing about why we have eyebrows I'd like to share. And it turns out there are three reasons we have eyebrows. First, they protect your eyes. The shape of the brow ridge and the outward growing hair of the brow channels sweat, rain and moisture away from your eyeballs so your vision stays clear. They can also catch dust and shield your eyes from sun glare. Secondly, eyebrows are essential for nonverbal communication. Scientists who study facial expression say eyebrows are important for expressing happiness, surprise, and anger. Thirdly, eyebrows act as an ID card. Eyebrows stand out against the forehead and can clearly be seen from a distance. Eyebrows don't change very much over time, making them perfect for identifying people. And that is something you should know. A lot of people will tell you I've heard a lot of people say that they hate small talk. It's boring, it's pointless, often awkward. Well, maybe, but perhaps it doesn't have to be. In fact, small talk may be quite valuable, even rewarding, if you look at it and do it the way Deborah Fine does. Deborah is the author of the all new revised edition of the book the Fine Art of Small Talk. Hi Deborah, welcome to something you should know.

[Deborah Fine]

Thanks so much, Mike. I'm glad to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So everybody has their own kind of idea of what small talk is. And it does have kind of a negative connotation to it. Like small talk means it doesn't matter. It's just small talk and it's like a bubble that pops, it goes away. What's your definition of small talk?

[Deborah Fine]

I agree with you that small talk is definitely demeaned as just a waste of saliva. However, I believe that small talk is the appetizer for any relationship. When you look at your social relationships, your romantic relationships, your business relationships, they probably started with small talk and then grew deeper and. Or that you started in a business conversation such as we are having now. This is a business conversation. There has been no small talk. If we have any hopes of developing a friendship or a business relationship, then it reverts back to small talk in order to accomplish that. Small talk is the appetizer for relationships.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yet a lot of people, and I guess I put myself in this category, I don't really like small talk in the sense that it just as you say, every relationship starts with small talk, but not every conversation with small talk ends up in a relationship. In fact, most don't. So in essence seems like a waste of time a lot of the time.

[Deborah Fine]

But I don't have statistics to prove what I'm about to say, Mike. And I know where you're coming from. I used to be an engineer and I had. I was no fan of small talk. I didn't like chit chatting with people. I got down to business. A part of that was my discomfort with it too. But small talk? Think about everyone that's listening. Think about the relationships in your life, the person that is your romantic interest when you went on that first date. Even if you started with a virtual via texting app, if your skills in small talk were lousy when you came face to face, I bet it was an excruciating date. And I'm surprised it took the journey into a real relationship. The same goes in business, Mike. I think that people do business with their friends and you cannot form or cultivate a connection or friendship with someone without introducing small talk. Now small talk doesn't have to just be about the weather or sports. It can be something as simple as One of my favorite ways to get to know someone is to ask someone like yourself or anyone what keeps you busy outside of your work. Because that's Mike, I google stalked you before going on this program because I'm always prepared with conversation. I didn't find out a lot about you outside of your business and your work history. So if I had a chance to have a cup of coffee with you before we launched into another interview or some business collaboration, I would say to you what keeps you busy outside of your work in order to foster some kind of true relationship with you? And I don't think that's a waste of saliva because I would like to get to know you or anybody else I'm with unless they're a class a jerk or abusive in some way. But that goes for your kid's teacher. Don't you want to know them a little better beyond the parent back to school night situation, don't you want to know the person sitting next to you when you're watching the kid's soccer game and or you volunteer for an organization that's dear to your heart and you either want to cultivate connections with fellow volunteers and or bring in new volunteers. Well, small talk is comes in handy for that, Mike. There's lots of ways you can use the tools of small talk in a sincere and genuine way to bring those connections into your life.

[Mike Carruthers]

So let's talk about the tools of small talk because I love that idea of asking someone what they do outside of work. You know, I mean, I don't talk a lot about it in my business. And that's why you didn't find much about it. But that's a great question to ask because it makes people think. And, you know, people love to talk about themselves. So that's probably gonna be a real convers opener, right?

[Deborah Fine]

And also, I'm not opposed to asking, what do you do? Especially at an industry conference or I'm at a meeting waiting for it to begin and our vice president is about to launch into whatever, you know. Then you say, well, what do you do for the organization? Or what's your connection with work? But outside of that, I could be at a party and meet someone's spouse, partner, whomever, and just say, I will say to him, her. They what keeps you busy? It's the same idea. What keeps you busy outside of work. But now I'm at a party, I'm not sure. Do they stay at home with their kids? Are they retired? Are they in transition? So just what keeps you busy? The goal is to find something that you are willing to talk about about yourself without putting you on the spot. I'm not going to ask you, Mike, are you married? Because what if you say no? Where are we headed with this conversation? And I'm not going to ask you, do you have any kids? People do that. Do you have any kids? Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow this down. First of all, if they don't have kids, you're headed down a rabbit hole. Secondly, if they do have kids, they probably won't shut up. So either way.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what are the other tools of small talk besides that? Rather great question, but what else works? Because as you say, sometimes as the conversation is going down the highway, you smack into a dead end and it's like, oh, now what are we going to talk about? Or why did I ask that? Or Bo, this is going nowhere. So how do you keep it on the rails?

[Deborah Fine]

Okay, so I have a couple of ideas and tools for that, Mike. One is what I call digging in deeper. So I happen to be married. When my husband walks in at the end of my work day today, he'll probably say to me, how was your day? Right, Moni, how are you? Now, everyone that's listening that has a spouse or partner, that's what we say to one another, and it becomes rhetorical. Mike. It's like we just mean hello, right? If I ask you how your weekend was, it means hello. If I say, how's the project? It just means hello. People aren't really asking for a response. They're just throwing out these rhetorical questions. So when my husband asks how my day is, how's your day, Deborah? I'LL say pretty good, because I'm not certain he's interested, Mike, if he then digs in deeper with one more question. So what'd you have on your plate today, Deborah? Or tell me about what you worked on today then. I know my husband genuinely wants to talk about my day rather than the fact that the Denver Broncos just hired a new coach, which is what is on his mind only at this moment. So digging in deeper is saying to somebody, how are the kids? Good. So what's new with the kids? Since the last time we spoke? That's a digging in deeper question. How's the project going, Jo? Oh, pretty good. So what's been the greatest challenge? That's the digging in deeper question. How was your vacation? It was great. What did you enjoy the most? What was the highlight? What did you think of the speaker today? Oh, good. So what was your number one takeaway? I mean, I could go on and on, Mike, and I'm sure you don't want me to. So that's an example of digging in deeper. And it's critical, especially these days, because in North America, we ask these rhetorical questions and don't expect an answer. So we fall into these ruts. How you doing, Mike? Good. How are you, Deborah? Good. What's new? Nothing. What's new with you? Nothing. I mean, geez, where are we headed with this? That's where small talk needs a little help.

[Mike Carruthers]

So besides digging deeper, what else?

[Deborah Fine]

What else? Playing the conversation game. So if you ask most people what's been going on, let me just throw that out there so your listeners can answer in their own heads or out loud. What's been going on?

[Mike Carruthers]

Nothing, Mike.

[Deborah Fine]

We didn't even rehearse that. That's amazing, because that's what most of us say. Nothing or not much. Mike, I don't know you. As I mentioned, I just can't believe it. I mean, I bet you a full day is busy. And whatever else goes on in your life, you're busy, right? You're busy. You got stuff going on. But we say nothing or not much for two reasons. Number one, because we're lazy. We don't take the time to think of something else. We don't work hard and invest in conversation. The other reason we say nothing or not much is because there is so much going on that we can't think of what it is. So here's my suggestion. When you have the time. Now, today, before we start our interview, I believe you asked me how I was. I sensed that you didn't mean it that you wanted to get down to business. And so I went. I didn't play the conversation game. I didn't do what I would have done if you and I met for coffee. If you and I met for coffee and you said, how you doing? I would have said, well, I'm great. You know, it's been literally below zero freezing in Denver the past week and the sun is out today and we're up to 45 degrees. That would be my answer to give you something to talk about. We could talk about the weather or the weather where you're at now. Let me take it to another step. Someone says, how are you? If you want to connect with them because you're waiting for a meeting to begin, give them a sentence. Well, my. I'm doing great, you know, this weekend I'm really looking forward to a visit from my brother. Well, where does your brother live? You know, why does he live a different place than you live? Like, how did you come to live here? If you don't give me something in a sentence. When my grown up children, adult children say to me, how's it going, Mom? They probably don't mean it, Mike. Okay? They probably don't mean it, but when they say, how's it going? I always play the conversation game. Oh, it's great. I did a podcast with this gentleman. He literally has over a million downloads. I mean, you know, podcasts are so popular these days and everybody's got one, but this guy has one that's concrete, that's solid, that's successful. It was amazing. And then I stop. If they're interested, they'll ask me about it. If they're not interested, they'll go, that's nice, mom. You know, can you help me with fill in the blank. So playing the conversation is critical. When somebody asks, what's new? How's it going? How's the project? How have you been? Could you please give me an answer in a sentence? So we now have something to talk about.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're discussing small talk with one of the real experts on the topic. It's Deborah Fine. She's author of the book the Fine Art of Small Talk. I really love it when I find a great new podcast and then of course, I have to share that with everyone. And one I really want you to listen to is Curiosity Weekly. Curiosity Weekly from Discovery makes sense of some of the biggest questions and ideas shaping our world. It's all about new discoveries happening in science and tech. They have expert guests that make it all make sense. It's a bit similar to something you should know, which is why I think you'll like it. But it takes a different spin. Listen to Curiosity Weekly and you'll discover things like how neuroscientists are studying TikTok and social media habits to see which chemicals are being released in your brain that make you so obsessed. Or how it is that you can fly from Florida to England on a plane using recycled plastic jet fuel. And how AI can now read hieroglyphics from Egyptian pyramids. What's so great about Curiosity Weekly is there's so much to learn about science and tech, and these guys seem to have their finger on the pulse of the most interesting stuff. Food science, the science behind social media, the science of algorithms, computer science. And it's all explained in a fascinating way every week on Curiosity Weekly. Listen to Curiosity Weekly wherever you get your podcasts. You know, we have had several experts on this podcast talk about the risks of being overweight and the heavier you are and the longer you remain that way, the more substantial the risks. But losing weight on your own, that is so difficult and often unsuccessful. Hers is changing the weight loss game and making weight loss actually achievable. HERS offers a weight loss program with personalized solutions including compounded GLP1 weekly injections featuring the same active ingredient as Ozempic and Wegovy or oral medication kits all at one low cost with compounded GLP1 injection starting at $165 a month with a 12 month plan paid up front for new subscribers. Your initial online visit is free, so start right [e-mail] sysk that's F O R H E R-S.com sysk for your personalized weight loss treatment options. Forhers.com sysk hers weight loss is not available everywhere. Compounded products are not FDA approved or verified for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required restrictions apply. Wegovy and Ozempic are not compounded. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased. So Deborah, I sense that you have this arsenal of things that you could probably have a pretty good conversation with almost anybody. But I think people also inadvertently kill conversations. And how do they do that? What are the kind of the poison pills of conversation?

[Deborah Fine]

Well, I'll give you that in a second because what I do want to respond to is that I would be successful conversing with anyone. Well, I'm pretty good at it. But I do want to say if somebody doesn't want to talk to me, there's nothing I can do about it. And people need to know that because most of us fear rejection so greatly that we don't start conversations with new people or acquaintances because they might reject us. Listen. Oh, and we're looking for the perfect icebreaker, Mike. So everybody's looking for the perfect icebreaker, and if we don't find it, then we don't launch conversations. Let me tell you, I have hundreds of icebreakers. But if you don't want to talk to me, Mike, because you're busy or you need to go, or you just don't. I'm too tall, or whatever your reasons are for not wanting to talk to me, there's nothing I can do to change that. So everybody get over finding the perfect way to start a conversation and know that not everybody wants to talk to me, and it has nothing to do with me. Okay, so some conversation killers to avoid. Well, here's one that happened. So I asked somebody. So, you know, bring me up to date. What's new in your life since the last time we talked? Oh, it's been really rough. You know, I got laid off from my job, and, you know, the tech market is difficult now, and this is my response. Mike. Yeah. Have you thought, Joanne, about your resume? Like, is it one page or two pages? And. And what's the objective, Joanne? I become an advisor, Mike. Despite the fact that Joanne did not ask for advice, she simply responded to a question. She actually gave me information about what she was going through, and I chose to give her advice. How often have every parent or every girlfriend done what I'm about to illustrate? Hey, Mary, how's it going? Oh, good. I'm so sick of my husband. He does this. He won't do that. He's. He's caught up in this, and I'm just sick of that. I'm just so frustrated. And here's my response to that, Mike. Well, Mary, why don't you just leave him? I mean, refrain from you. I mean, be done with him. Cut the cord. You know what? Mary doesn't need that, Deborah. She's. She's a citizen of the United States. She has the freedom to leave her husband when and if she chooses. She doesn't need your unsolicited advice. This is what she needs. Wow, that sounds rough. Gosh. Is there anything I can do? Wow. I'm sorry you're going through this. Anything besides offering unsolicited advice to someone who has not requested it? Here's another one. Women have a tendency, and that's a stereotype, I know, but I'm going to get to the men. Don't worry, we match each other. So how was your vacation, Deborah, to Mexico? Oh, it was great. We did this. It was so fun. The weather was perfect. And this is her response to that? Oh, you, you went to Cancun. You went to, you went to an all inclusive. So did we. Oh my gosh, you can't imagine, Deborah, it was fabulous. They had this don't match each other. This isn't a contest. This is, this is when you should say, so, Deborah. I mean, have you been there before or, you know, what did you like about it the best? Would you recommend it? I mean, let's, let's show an interest in me. Would you, before you match. I mean, it happens with our kids all the time. So, Deborah, what's new with the kids? Oh, well, my son lives in New York City and you know, he has a live in girlfriend now. Really? Oh, my son, you know, he's been married, he's been married a long time. They're having kids now. Okay, folks, this is not a contest. This is not a game. Why don't you ask me who he's living with? Tell me a little bit about her. Tell me about your son. Why does he live in New York? That would be a better response.

[Mike Carruthers]

When I listen to you talk, and I think when other people listen to you talk, you have a way about you, a lightness about you, a confidence. I don't know exactly what it is, but that you can maneuver your way through any conversation and have a pretty good time with it. It seems, whereas other people struggle, that this is. I don't know if it's easy for you, but you seem to enjoy it versus people who. It's hard to summon up the courage so that it's hard for them to see doing what you do from where they are.

[Deborah Fine]

I say turn it into a task. That is what worked for me and I know it's worked for others because now I do have a history of 30 years of doing this, of helping people. So what I mean by turning into a task, next time you go to a baby shower, next time your spouse drags you to an event or you, you, you were excited about an invitation and ordinarily you wouldn't go ultimately because, you know, you're an introvert and you don't like these kinds of things. Let me make a suggestion. Go armed with a task. Here's the task. I'm going to talk to one new person. Really? When I go to networking events to this day, Mike, for my business, I tell myself, you'll talk to Three new people or two new people. I get to pick the number. I make myself look for two new people to talk to. I use icebreakers to launch the conversation. We can talk about that in a second if you'd like. Mike, you cannot get good at something unless you practice and invest time in it. I'm not asking you to invest an hour of cardio a day. I'm asking you to invest. Tell yourself three times this week at back to school night, at a lacrosse game, at a party that I'm invited to. Before the meeting begins, I'm going to start a conversation with a person that I've never really connected with or I don't know much about. And it will come, Mike. I promise you it will come. But it will not come because you expect lightning to strike. And I waited most of my life for lightning to strike, and it never happened.

[Mike Carruthers]

So you mentioned icebreakers, and I think that's where a lot of people struggle is. Like, you want to start a conversation and you don't know what to say because it's a blank slate. So how do you begin? So let's talk about icebreakers.

[Deborah Fine]

There is no such thing as a perfect icebreaker. If someone is willing to talk to you, almost anything will work that's not offensive. If someone's unwilling to talk to you, nothing's gonna work. But the best way to launch into a conversation is to use what I call free information about the occasion or location. If I'm at a baby shower, I would say, hey, how do you know the. Either the mom, probably in my case because my age, I would say, how do you know the moment of the future grandparent, grandmother, or how do you know the mom to be? What's your connection? What's your connection to the host? That's free information about the occasion location. If I'm on a trip and on a train, I can say to somebody, are you from this area? Are you from somewhere else? Because the free information I have is they're either from this area or they're from somewhere else. Free information about occasion, location. How did you get involved with this charity? If I'm at a conference in Orlando, I'll say, have you been to Orlando before? That's the free information I have.

[Mike Carruthers]

It almost seems like as long as it's not goofy or offensive, that, I mean, people are usually at these things to talk to other people that it doesn't. It's not like this big, formal opening statement kind of thing. It's just seems like conversations would be fairly easy to start because that's why we're all here.

[Deborah Fine]

Yeah. Like, what brings you here? Is one of my favorite ways to start a conversation. So wherever we are, except if it's a party, then I say, how do you know the host? But what brings you here? What's your connection? If I see you talking to somebody, I pretend I don't know you or I approach you. How do you two know each other and everybody. This is such a conversation killer. Do not make assumptions about people. Oh, is this your wife or is that your husband or I mean, is this your girlfriend? Please stop that. Just stop. How do you two know each other Is the way to find out what they're willing to tell you.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I think you've given people not only the tools but also the confidence that, you know, this is just, it's just conversation. And there's some pretty easy ways to get it going and keep it going. And I appreciate you sharing that. Deborah Fine has been my guest and the name of her book is the Fine Art of Small Talk. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Deborah. Thanks for coming on.

[Deborah Fine]

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me Today. I was excited.

[Mike Carruthers]

Think about all the online businesses selling products, ones that you probably buy. Mattel, Gymshark, Untuck It, Magic Spoon. All solid businesses. But a key ingredient to any successful online business is the business behind the business that makes the whole selling and checkout process work. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Shopify is the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret secret is something they have called shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed and everywhere in between. The fact is businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Mattel and Gymshark and millions of other companies use. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com all lowercase go to shopify.com sysk to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com sysk I'm really excited to have Factor back as a sponsor. Factor provides delicious chef made gourmet meals right to your door. And just to be clear, this is not a box of ingredients that you have to make. These are not frozen meals. These are fresh, fully prepared meals ready to heat and eat in two minutes, and they're so good. I first had Factor Meals delivered to me. It's been a few years now and everyone in the house has loved them. What's really special about Factor Meals is they're dietitian approved and the variety is impressive. There are 40 options across eight dietary preferences on the menu each week, and you can choose from preferences like Calorie Smart, Protein plus, or keto. What kind of meals are they? Well, I think you'd find these pretty Chicken Florentine with spinach and garlic, chili cauliflower, Cajun spiced salmon and shrimp, garlic pork tenderloin. It's like a gourmet restaurant, and this is going to make it easy for you to try. Eat Smart with factor. Get started at Factor Meals.com and use code Something50OFF to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. That's code [e-mail] Something50OFF to get 50% OFF plus free shipping on your first box. And I'll put that code in the show notes to make this simple. Have you ever wondered why you do the things you do or why you use the words you use to say the things you say or why you decide to do this instead of that? So much of this goes on below the radar. It seems we just do what we do. But it's actually pretty interesting when you look below the surface at why we actually do these things. That's what Helena Bashi studies. Helena is a psychologist and author of a book called why we do what We Do. Hi, Helena. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Helena Bashi]

Hi, Mike. It's great to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So explain a little bit about your work and what you mean by why we do what we do. Because, I mean, I do many things and I'm pretty sure I know why I do them. But then there are also a lot of things I do that, you know, when I stop and think about it, I don't know why I did it.

[Helena Bashi]

Well, we live a lot of our lives and we do a lot of things without really thinking about why we do what we do. We use language without being really intentional. We make decisions and we don't know what's underpinning them. We, we. We are frightened and we sometimes don't know why, and we tend to use habits and we don't really think about the habits we. We have and why we have resorted to those particular habits. So as soon as we start really thinking about why we're doing what we're doing and paying attention to our behavior, Even the small stuff. We become much more intentional about the decisions we take, the behaviors we use, the language we deploy around us.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, let's talk about language because, well, the words we use are so important to how we get along with other people. How successful we are using the right words matters. So how does that all work?

[Helena Bashi]

Whenever we say anything, we need to remember that the brain very visual. And so the brain likes to try and convert words to pictures very quickly. So whenever we use a word like elephant or dog or tropical beach, the brain starts to see these things straight away. Not the word, but the visual association of the word. But the brain doesn't see every single word. And so we've got to, if we want to try. And different words, of course, light up different parts of the brain. So when you're using very visual words, the back of the head, which is our visual cortex, that starts to become more active. If we're using words associated with movement, our motor cortex lights up more. And the same thing happens with words associated with taste or smell, and those areas light up. So the brain responds to different words very well. The brain also responds to words that carry a high emotional component, and that starts to activate lots of different areas of the brain. So when we have words that are more sentimental or associated with the home or family, for example, then the brain starts to activate the areas of memory which are to do with personal memory as well as the visual cortex. So the more we really think about language and the more descriptive or vivid our language becomes, the more we're activating different parts of the brain.

[Mike Carruthers]

You say something interesting, and that is that the brain doesn't see or doesn't recognize the word don't. And so that can cause a lot of problems. And so explain how.

[Helena Bashi]

So if I said to you, don't look behind you, Mike, you might immediately want to look behind you. Or don't take this personally, Mike. You might think, oh, no, what's coming? We sometimes use words in the opposite way to what's intended. So we say to young children, don't go over there. Don't play with that. Don't spill that drink, don't touch that. And then we wonder why they're being so disobedient. Because the brain will turn as much as it can into something visual, except when it can't. But the key thing to remember is the brain is negatively wired. So the brain tends to hook to negatively salient information over positive. And when we hear things, any bad news or gossip about other people or receive negative feedback, it sticks it becomes very cognitively sticky in the brain, and it takes quite a lot to dislodge this. So, for example, if you're trying to give someone feedback in a meeting and you think, well, I'll start with a positive, I'll then give the negative, I'll end on a positive. And that's typically called the feedback sandwich. What we don't take into account is that the negatively loaded information will tend to stick much more strongly in the brain. So the positive information that you've given, even though it's twice as much, won't be held by the brain. And we tend to walk away from discussions like that and conversations like that, only holding on to the negative. So language is quite a complex thing, and we've got to really think about how we put conversations together, what we want to get out of the conversation, how we want someone to leave feeling at the end of a conversation.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that's interesting. So how do you maneuver what you say to leave people feeling a certain way?

[Helena Bashi]

Well, there are lots of different tools to use for different outcomes. So if you want someone to feel more motivated, then you need to focus on the behavior that you want repeated. Then you need to lock that in with them, so you focus on that. We think we're being motivational when we. We try and give them praise and then we give them criticism at the same time. Brain can't handle that because it holds only onto the negative. So if we really want to motivate someone and make them feel good about something, the first thing we've got to do is be very specific about what's gone well so they know exactly what they did well, and so that you get that repeated forevermore. If you want someone to improve their performance, the best thing you can do is focus on what you need them to do, but time it so that it's just before the next event. We tend to put everything all together immediately after an event so that poor person can't do anything with any implied criticism because they have nothing to throw the advice at. And even though we mean it as a developmental piece of advice, that person's still holding it as a criticism. So I would say simplify the conversation, separate the feedback. Keep people feeling motivated by focus specifically by focusing specifically on what went well, and wait until the next event before advising them or guiding them into how to do something better.

[Mike Carruthers]

So let's talk about creativity, because that topic comes up a lot. And some people say, well, I'm not very creative, and other people say they are. And is creativity a God given thing. Or is creativity like language, something you learn?

[Helena Bashi]

Yes. You know, we don't. We aren't born with language. We have to learn language. But you could argue that we're all born very curious and to adapt to our surroundings. And then you could argue. So very interesting experiments have been carried out with children. And George Land was probably one of the most famous pioneers of this. And he wanted to see how creative, and he calls it divergent thinking, where the brain just goes off on a limb and starts exploring possibilities and one idea leads to another, leads to another. And he decided he was working with NASA at the time, and I think this was around the 1960s. He was working with his colleague Beth Jarman, and he wanted to see how creative, how divergent would children be at the age of 5? And he followed them for 10 years to see how education would affect their creativity, how teaching, how growing up would affect their creativity. And when he found that at the age of five, children are naturally very curious, very creative, very divergent in their thinking, and nothing really phases them. Children just plunge headlong into something and give it a go. Now, by the age of 15, well, he did it again at the age of 10, and he did it again at the age Of 15. This ability to think divergently had reduced massively. And, you know, you could point the fault at the education system or the way that we narrow down our expertise. We think we become good at something so we stop trying other things. But he found that by the age of 15, this. You know, I think 95% of children at the age of five were able to think divergently and creatively. The time they'd reached 15, it had gone down to about, I think it was around 12%. I mean, even, probably even less, which is terrible if you think about it. And so we get these adults who've had creativity bashed out of them, and then we tell them to think creatively at work. And of course, they're not used to it. We're taught in education to come up with a right answer. We're rewarded and praised for the right answer. We're told off for daydreaming and letting our minds wander, which is. Is what the brain needs to do. And so we lose this ability to think creatively. And then we put people in a room and we say, right, brainstorm. And of course, when people are forced to be creative, you get the opposite effect because the brain then gets anxious and it switches off. And a happy, relaxed, daydreaming brain is of course, a more creative One and we don't create the right environment to get the best out of people's creative potential.

[Mike Carruthers]

Let's talk about stress because I think everyone has had that feeling of being really stressed out and not being able to perform well, not being able to think clearly. And the more stressed you are, the less clearly you think. And it's gotta be taking a toll. So talk about what you see. The connection between stress and the brain.

[Helena Bashi]

We have a very ancient system inside us. We're designed to switch on our stress system to deal with immediate stresses in our environment. And then the stress system is designed to switch off again. This system is not designed to switch on and off and on and off or stay on continually. And you see, the modern world, the world we're designed for, is not the modern world. The world we're designed for is when a saber toothed tiger came into our, into our immediate vicinity and we had to make a quick decision. Do I turn and fight? Do I run like crazy? That's the world we're still designed for. But the world we're now in is switching on the system. It's being switched on with modern stressors. You know, a boss that wants to give us some feedback or 600 emails on our server, or a friend who's rejected us, even anything anticipated, even if we don't know what's coming, it could be good. But just not knowing is stressful. And even anything imaginary, the brain doesn't have to, it doesn't have to be real for the brain to respond as if the stressor were actually real. Now the big problem about stress, of course, is that we sometimes wait to feel okay again. So anxiety rises and anxiety, as we know, is contagious. So stressed people make other people stressed. And we wait to feel not stressed again. We wait for the feelings of anxiety to disappear, but sometimes they don't. And so when we are feeling stressed, the best thing we can possibly do is to do something, do something that is physically active. So physical exercise is of course one of the best things we can do. It's probably one of the last things we feel like doing, keeping our hands and feet busy and active. Sometimes we have to do something, anything, and then the feelings come later.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so how does memory fit into this discussion? I mean, so much of who we are is our memories and it's part of our brain. So talk about memory.

[Helena Bashi]

Memory is one of the most fascinating areas of the brain and memory works. And memory is notoriously unique, unreliable. We cannot really. And people who think they've got A good memory may well have a good memory, but it's never going to remember exactly in absolute detail what happened. Because every time we revisit a memory, we add something to it. You know, the environment that we're in might trigger a memory, but we're now adding to that memory with a new experience. You know, our memories, every time we replay them, something else is being added all the time. We embellish it and we add to it and we make more of it. Do we make less of it? So the best way to, to make sure that we remember absolutely is write things down in real time. So if we want to have a good record of something, make a note of it or record it in some way so that you can revisit. I guess this is why people keep journals and they. Then we'll remember the detail of what happens. The more emotional a memory is, the more it is highlighted in the brain as a memory. But even then, we don't always remember exactly. And memory does decay over time. It's called decay. And so. And it decays quite a bit. If we don't revisit memories, we don't replay them, then we do lose them. So it's, it's, you know, it's often good to go back and. Or play memory games to keep the memory part of the brain really active and stimulated. Because it's. We, you know, if we lost our memories, I mean, who would we be? You know, it's horrible to think of a world where we couldn't attach to the memories that we formed. And we rely so heavily on our memories. But the one thing to remember, and this is Daniel Kahneman, who wrote the book Thinking Fast and Slow. He talks about this, and he says our experiencing self is very different to our remembering self. So we have an experience and we will. We will have the experience in real time. But the way we remember an experience is very different to the experience itself. And an experience is often remembered in a way that's clouded by the last thing that happens or something that somebody said. So we have to remember that the experience that when we recall a memory of an experience, we're not recalling the actual experience. We're calling recalling the memory. And this is why we need people around us who remember different things to us and who see the world differently to us because they take from an experience something different to what we take. And so it's often good to share memories around so that we can. Can sometimes see the world through another lens.

[Mike Carruthers]

One thing you talk about that I don't think a lot of people understand, I frankly don't really understand it very well. Is this thing we hear now about the gut brain connection, can you talk about that?

[Helena Bashi]

The relationship with the gut and the brain is becoming more, more and more important for us to know about. Because the brain, the cranial nerve that we have 12 cranial nerves and one of them links the brain and the gut. And messages go brain to gut, gut to brain. But a lot of our happy chemical, serotonin, which, which promotes feelings of well being and relaxation and feeling that all's well with the world, that's called serotonin, a lot of that sits actually in our gut and not our brain. And most of the messages don't go brain to gut, they go gut to brain. People with mental disorders and diseases like depression or schizophrenia often have gut problems that are comorbid with the psychological problems. So you know, the gut doesn't, it doesn't sit on its own. We can't look at the brain in isolation. We have to look at the body and the brain as an entire system. And so when people talk about mental health, I think we've got to look at, at the whole health. We can't just look at mental health because what we actually choose to eat will affect our mental health. So we have to really think about what we're putting into our gut and make sure that the food we're putting in, they're not containing empty calories, they're actually going to do something of good for us and to maintain the body's balance because everything, the brain and the body are designed stay in balance. But when the world is out of balance, our systems go out of balance too. So we have to find ways of consciously rebalancing our systems by being more conscious about the food we eat, trying to get better quality sleep and taking regular exercise. The brain loves the body to move. It's designed for the body to move. And real brain development started as we started to learn to move. So we, we've especially our memory, our memory really started to grow. Our memory structure started to grow when we learned to walk. So the brain needs the body to move and move often. And yes, the brain loves cardiovascular exercises, quick, quick bursts of activity where we're pumping blood around the body and we're creating more oxygenation in the brain. But we do need to get regular natural movement into our day to day activity as well.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, there certainly is a whole lot going on when it comes to what we do, what we say, the words we use, how we feel I appreciate you explaining all this. Helena Bashi has been my guest. She is a psychologist and author of a book called why we do what we do, and you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks Helena. Appreciate it.

[Helena Bashi]

Thank you very much, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

Medicine and Kitchen Utensils don't mix. Dosing medicine is. It's serious stuff and some of us are a bit too casual about it. Millions of Americans are hurt every year by medication mistakes that could have been avoided. And two of the most common errors involve kitchen use utensils. First of all, using a kitchen spoon to measure medications. People do it all the time and they wind up taking either too much or too little of their medicine. You see, the people who make kitchen spoons are not required to make those spoons hold exactly a teaspoon of liquid and they seldom do. It's better to stick with a dosing cup or maybe get a syringe that provides the right amount. Splitting medication with a knife is just a bad idea, assuming you've got the okay from your doctor to split the pill in the first place, you really need to use a pill splitter because uneven cuts mean uneven doses and that is something you should know. You know, the success of this podcast is due in large part to word of mouth marketing people like you telling other people how much you like it and suggesting they give it a listen. And I hope you will continue that tradition and tell someone you know about something you should know. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. A while back we had Ramit Sethi on as a guest and he's one of the smartest people you'll ever know when it comes to everyday money matters. And and he was here talking about money and couples. As it turns out, he has his own podcast called Money for Couples, which if you're part of a couple, then I highly recommend you listen to this podcast because when you do, instead of fighting about money, you and your partner will discover how to start building a rich life together. Money for Couples is a podcast full of real life actionable advice like how to pay off your debt and still enjoy your life, how to build a shared financial vision, how to spend extravagantly on what you love and cut back on what you don't. And you'll learn from real world stories of couples facing the same money challenges as you. All of the episodes are helpful, but if I had to pick one or two, there's one called we make $300,000 a year but spend like we make a million. That's a situation I think a lot of people can relate to. And another is called We've Saved for Retirement but have no Money to Spend now. Money for Couples is the name of the podcast hosted by Ramit Sethi. And all you have to do is search for Money for Couples wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Hi, I'm Laura Cathcart Robbins, and I am the host and creator of the podcast Only One in the Room.

[Deborah Fine]

Every week, my co host Scott Slaughter, and I invite you to join us.

[Mike Carruthers]

And lose yourself in someone's incredible Only One story. We talk to real people dealing with issues like infertility, the death of a loved one, human trafficking, and women who fake it. Oh, and we want to be fair, so we talk to celebrities, too. Emmy winners like actor Jon Cryer, supermodels like Amber Amber Valletta, and rock stars like Ryan Dusick. Everyone is invited to share their only one story with our listeners.

[Deborah Fine]

With 21 seasons and counting, we guarantee.

[Mike Carruthers]

You that only one in the room has a story that you'll connect with. This podcast is for anyone who has ever felt alone in a room full of people. Which is to say that this podcast is for everyone.

[Deborah Fine]

Download Only One in the Room on.

[Mike Carruthers]

Apple or Spotify today.