How to Say No Without Guilt & The Secrets to Satisfaction - SYSK Choice

Summary

Something You Should Know: How to Say No Without Guilt & The Secrets to Satisfaction

Host: Mike Carruthers | Episode Release Date: June 14, 2025

In the "How to Say No Without Guilt & The Secrets to Satisfaction" episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers delves into two transformative topics: mastering the art of saying no without feeling guilty and understanding the profound difference between fleeting happiness and lasting life satisfaction. To explore these subjects, Mike engages with two esteemed guests: Professor Vanessa Patrick, an award-winning researcher on the science of refusal, and Dr. Jennifer Gutman, a psychologist specializing in life satisfaction.

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A Refreshing Start: The Power of the Hammock Nap [00:00 - 05:00]

Before diving into the main discussions, Mike shares a personal anecdote about a hectic week filled with family activities and sleepless nights. To counter this, he introduces a scientifically-backed tip: taking a nap in a hammock. Research indicates that the swaying motion of a hammock can help adults fall asleep faster and experience more satisfying rest by enhancing the initial light sleep phase (N1) and deeper sleep stages. Participants in the study reported feeling more mentally refreshed after napping in a hammock compared to traditional settings ([04:15]).

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Mastering the Art of Saying No with Professor Vanessa Patrick [05:41 - 29:09]

Why Saying No is Challenging

Professor Vanessa Patrick explains that saying no is inherently difficult because it defies social expectations. People are conditioned to conform and be agreeable, making refusals anxiety-inducing. Vanessa identifies two primary fears that hinder individuals from saying no:

1. Relationship Concerns: Worrying that saying no might damage the relationship with the requester.
2. Reputation Management: The desire to maintain a positive image and be seen as helpful ([06:59]).

The ART Framework for Empowered Refusal

Vanessa introduces her ART framework, a strategic approach to saying no effectively without guilt:

1. Awareness: Developing deep self-awareness to understand personal priorities and values. This clarity helps in making informed decisions about what to accept or decline.

2. Rules (Personal Policies): Establishing clear personal rules or policies that guide refusals. For example, instead of saying, "I can't talk at 7:30 PM," a more empowered response would be, "I don't take calls between 6 and 9 PM because that's family time" ([08:52]).

3. Totality of Self: Ensuring that refusals align with one's identity and long-term goals, which fosters consistency and resilience in decision-making.

Practical Techniques for Saying No

• Use Empowered Language: Vanessa emphasizes the importance of using definitive language. Phrases like "I don't" or "I never" convey conviction, whereas "I can't" may come across as uncertain or weak ([10:31]).

• Distinguishing Between Types of Requests: She categorizes asks into:

  • Pass the Salt Asks: Low effort for the responder but high benefit for the requester. These are usually easy to say yes to.
  • Hero's Journey Asks: High effort and significant impact on the requester. These require careful consideration to balance personal cost and mutual benefit ([25:54]).

• Challenging Indispensability: Vanessa advises recognizing that "we are not indispensable", meaning others can fulfill requests if one declines. This mindset alleviates the fear of letting others down ([21:29]).

Overcoming Guilt and Building Confidence

Mike and Vanessa discuss the pervasive guilt associated with saying no, especially among women who are more likely to accept non-promotable tasks in professional settings. Vanessa provides insights into reshaping this narrative, highlighting that setting boundaries can enhance one's reputation by demonstrating control and intentionality ([12:26]).

Quotes:

• "Saying no is really hard for a lot of people. It is fraught with anxiety and conflict." — Vanessa Patrick ([06:01])
• "Using words like 'I don't' instead of 'I can't' makes a world of difference." — Vanessa Patrick ([10:47])

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Beyond Happiness: Embracing Life Satisfaction with Dr. Jennifer Gutman [32:30 - 52:34]

Redefining Happiness

Dr. Jennifer Gutman challenges the conventional pursuit of happiness, positing that happiness is a transient emotion, not a sustainable state. She contrasts this with life satisfaction, which embodies a persistent sense of contentment and fulfillment. According to Dr. Gutman, while happiness fluctuates with daily experiences, satisfaction provides a stable foundation regardless of momentary emotions ([33:25]).

Understanding Life Satisfaction

• Happiness: Momentary emotions triggered by specific events (e.g., receiving a compliment or seeing a child smile).
• Satisfaction: A deeper, enduring sense of contentment with one's life, akin to feeling at peace after a productive day ([33:49]).

Building Resilience for Life Satisfaction

Dr. Gutman outlines strategies to cultivate life satisfaction:

1. Avoiding Assumptions: Challenging negative assumptions about the future by questioning their validity. For example, asking oneself, "Where's the evidence that this feeling of despair will last?" helps mitigate undue anxiety ([37:01]).

2. Decision Making with Intention: Making conscious decisions that align with personal values and priorities, thereby fostering a sense of autonomy and purpose ([37:10]).

3. Challenging the Negativity Bias: Recognizing that humans are predisposed to anticipate negative outcomes. By tracking emotions in real-time, such as using a three-column method (anticipatory anxiety, during the event, post-event), individuals can see that their fears are often unfounded and that positive experiences are more prevalent than remembered ([39:21]).

Techniques for Sustained Satisfaction

• Compassionate Self-Talk: Transitioning from a critical inner monologue to a compassionate inner coach enhances self-esteem and resilience. Dr. Gutman emphasizes that treating oneself with the same kindness extended to others can lead to greater life satisfaction ([44:13]).

• Neural Pathway Remodeling: Consistent practice of positive techniques can reprogram the brain's neural circuits, making compassionate and resilient thinking habitual over time ([42:33]).

Real-Life Applications

Dr. Gutman shares success stories of clients who transformed their outlook by implementing structured reflection and compassionate self-talk, leading to lasting changes in how they perceive and respond to life's challenges ([43:59]).

Quotes:

• "Happiness is an emotion. It comes and goes. It's not meant to be long lasting." — Dr. Jennifer Gutman ([02:18])
• "We have very critical inner monologues running most of the time. It's important to transfer that critical inner coach to a compassionate coach." — Dr. Jennifer Gutman ([44:13])

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Conclusion: Empowerment Through Say No and Embracing Satisfaction [52:34 - 55:32]

Mike wraps up the episode by emphasizing the empowerment gained from mastering the ability to say no and shifting focus from transient happiness to enduring life satisfaction. He reiterates the value of the insights shared by Vanessa Patrick and Dr. Jennifer Gutman, encouraging listeners to apply these principles to lead more fulfilling lives.

Final Thoughts:

• Setting Boundaries: Embracing the power to say no enhances personal well-being and respects one's limits.
• Pursuing Satisfaction: Focusing on life satisfaction over fleeting happiness leads to a more resilient and contented existence.

Additional Resources:

• Books Mentioned:
  • The Power of Saying No by Vanessa Patrick
  • Beyond the Six Secrets of Life Satisfaction by Dr. Jennifer Gutman

Listeners are encouraged to explore these resources for a deeper understanding and practical applications of the discussed concepts.

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Notable Quotes:

• "When you say no to the things that don't matter and say yes to the things that do, you come across as much more in control of your own life." — Vanessa Patrick ([12:26])
• "Changing the way you talk to yourself from critical to compassionate can have an amazing impact on your life satisfaction." — Dr. Jennifer Gutman ([44:13])
• "If you use these techniques enough, your brain starts to listen differently and reinforces positive, satisfying thought patterns." — Dr. Jennifer Gutman ([42:33])

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This episode of Something You Should Know equips listeners with the tools to assertively decline unwelcome requests and cultivate a more satisfying, resilient life outlook. By blending practical strategies with psychological insights, Mike Carruthers offers actionable advice to help individuals take control of their personal and professional lives.

Transcript

[Mike Carothers]

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[Vanessa Patrick]

Because when you say yes to one thing, you are saying no to something else. So what my research focuses on is how to develop the super skill of saying no in a way that is persuasive and yet maintains the relationship with the other person.

[Mike Carothers]

Also a simple strategy to use eye contact to improve any relationship and happiness. There's a problem with seeking happiness, yet everyone wants to be happy.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

It's literally written into the Declaration of Independence that we have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But happiness is an emotion. It comes and goes. It's not meant to be long lasting. It never was.

[Mike Carothers]

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[Vanessa Patrick]

Thank you Mike. I'm delighted to be here.

[Mike Carothers]

So as simple A question as this sounds, what is it about know that is such a big deal? If somebody asks you to do something and you don't want to do it, or you can't do it, or it would be a real hassle to do it, why don't we just say no and get on with it?

[Vanessa Patrick]

So saying no is really hard for a lot of people. It is fraught with anxiety and conflict, and people are really stressed about saying no to asks that come their way. And I think it boils down to the fact that saying no is a socially dispreferred response. And what I mean by that is that when people ask you something or invite you to go somewhere or request something of you, they essentially expect a yes. And saying no goes against that expectation. And we as human beings struggle with dealing with going against people's expectations. We want to conform, we want to be nice. And so in many ways, saying no is tough because we have to go against what the other person expects from us.

[Mike Carothers]

It isn't just the thing we're saying no to though, right? We're afraid of the repercussions.

[Vanessa Patrick]

In my research, I found that there are two key reasons why people struggle with saying no. One is that they are deeply concerned about the fact that their relationship with the other person will suffer as a result. And the second is they want to be seen in a positive light. So they want their reputation to be intact. And saying no in a way that is not effective can in fact damage your reputation and hurt your relationship with the other person. So what my research focuses on is how to develop the super skill of saying no in a way that is persuasive and yet maintains the relationship with the other person.

[Mike Carothers]

So let's talk about those two things that you just mentioned. Because people fear that their relationship will suffer, and they fear their reputation might suffer. Typically does it in most cases, or typically does it not? Are we fearing something that almost never happens, or are we fearing something that actually does happen?

[Vanessa Patrick]

I always like to ask people to think about the last time they asked someone for something. And when you get a no from somebody, chances are you just go to the next person on your list. You don't really think about it that much. So, you know, sometimes we exaggerate the extent to which that this is damaging to your relationship and reputation. But given that these are real concerns, my research on empowered refusal accommodates those concerns by giving people the tools and the skills to navigate these relational concerns of reputational concerns.

[Mike Carothers]

So I suspect those skills are very important because how you present your no is going to have an impact either for good or for worse. So let's talk about those skills.

[Vanessa Patrick]

Yes. So saying no, it's important to say no in a way that communicates a strong and empowered stance regarding why you are saying no. And so it's about looking inwards and looking at your identity and using words that communicate your empowered refusal response. So for example, when we say words like I don't, I never, I always. They are strong and empowered words and they reflect conviction and determination. When we use words like that, we come across as much more persuasive and we don't get pushback from the asker. Instead we get compliance. So let's imagine that we want to say no to a phone call that someone wants to have with us at 7:30pm if we respond saying I'm really sorry, I can't talk at 7:30pm, we sound disempowered and somewhat wishy washy. On the other hand, if you use the words I don't take calls between 6 and 9pm because that's family time, people respond to that refusal in a very different manner.

[Mike Carothers]

Often, I think when people say no and feel this obligation to say yes. But even when they finally do say no, they feel so guilty for saying no that they mash it all up with apologies and things that sound, as you say, very weak and wishy washy rather than here's my stance and you know, be proud of it.

[Vanessa Patrick]

Yes. And you know, for your audience who's really interested in surprising and interesting insights, this simple switch in terms from saying I can't to I don't can make a word world of difference.

[Mike Carothers]

What about though, when you don't have a standing rule that you don't take calls between this time and this time you just don't want to talk to that person, then it's just a one time, I'm too tired. It's that person. It isn't my standing rule. It's just I don't want to talk to them.

[Vanessa Patrick]

Exactly. And that boils down to one of the competencies, which is self awareness. Knowing what your preferences are, what your priorities are, where your beliefs lie, where your values lie, is super important for framing that refusal response. And if it is valid to you, then it is a valid reason not to oblige the other person. After all, a request is just a request. It is not a requirement. So if you really don't feel like talking to that person regardless of the time, you don't have to.

[Mike Carothers]

You had said earlier that one of the reasons people don't say no is because they're afraid their reputation will suffer as a result of that. But when I think about the people who say no, I respect them. I mean, it seems in some ways I even admire that they have these boundaries. So that in fact saying no may actually enhance your reputation, not hurt it.

[Vanessa Patrick]

You're so right. You're absolutely right. When you say no to the things that don't matter and say yes to the things that do, you do come across as much more in control in the driver's seat of your own life. And we do admire those sort of people who seem to know what they want and say no to everything else.

[Mike Carothers]

So if you're one of those people who has trouble saying no and has always had trouble saying no, how do you even become start to become one of those people who is comfortable with it? How do you develop the skills and what are the skills?

[Vanessa Patrick]

I have identified three competencies that help you master the art of empowered refusal. And ART is the acronym that I've developed. Art, Awareness, Rules, Not Decisions and Totality of Self. And so these three competencies are the ingredients, if you will, to to say a more effective no. So the first competency is awareness. This deepened self awareness helps us sift between the good for me activities from the not good for me activities and help us decide more effectively what to say yes to and what to say no to. And once we have this deepened self awareness, we can then create simple rules, what I call personal policies that help guide our actions and decisions. So that when we are faced with an ask that we want to say no to, we are more equipped with where we stand in these matters. When we lean on these personal policies that we have established to say no, we give voice to our values and we come across then with much greater conviction and much more determination.

[Mike Carothers]

When you say develop self awareness, explain what you mean. How do you do that?

[Vanessa Patrick]

So understanding, for example, how you want to spend your time, what you like and what you don't like. Some people are not aware where they stand on certain matters. Knowing where you stand helps you recognize a situation and understand the trade offs. Because when you say yes to one thing, you are saying no to something else. And so you should be very clear that what you are saying yes to matters and is not coming in the way of you living your best possible life.

[Mike Carothers]

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[Vanessa Patrick]

So many, many times you do have a sense of where you stand. But very often in my research I find people greatly conflicted because they are worried about how how it would look and how other people would view that. Whereas my research suggests that we really need to focus on ourselves and our priorities, I also provide a framework to help people decipher the ask. So let's say you do not have a strong stance on a matter and you don't know whether you should say yes or no. It's a cost benefit framework that helps you decide how to decipher the ask and shape your decision to say yes or your decision to say no.

[Mike Carothers]

Can you give me an example?

[Vanessa Patrick]

Sure. One type of ask is something that's pretty straightforward and easy. And I call them the pass the salt asks. In those type of asks, they are pretty easy for you to do. So it's not very high cost for you, but it's hugely beneficial for the other person. So the other person, it could be a game changer. So it's like passing the salt. The salt shaker is sitting in front of you. Someone at the table says could you pass the salt? And you just pass the salt to them for you it was super easy for the other person. You transform their meal to make it better. An example of pass the salt asks. As a professor myself, I very often get asked to write recommendation letters. I have a system in place for writing recommendation letters. So it's a pretty straightforward ask for me. I know how long it takes know the students, so it's not very hard. But for a student it is a game changer. It could really determine whether they get into the college of their choice or get into a job that they need. And so for me, the pass the salt asks are a yes because it's high benefit to the other person and relatively low cost to me. There are asks which are very high cost to me and possibly not very great benefit to the other person or even if it is beneficial to the other person. I'm not the only one who can do it in those cases. You are probably better off saying no and spending your time doing something that's more meaningful and more purpose driven.

[Mike Carothers]

Well, I love what you said about, you know, I could do it, but I'm not the only one who could do it. Because so often we think that when people ask us for something like we're the go to person, we could really, we're the one that they're really counting on. Well, we may have been fourth or fifth on the list ourselves that other people have already said no, but we think that, you know, if we say no, their whole world will collapse.

[Vanessa Patrick]

Yes, that is such a useful insight to remember that we are not indispensable. And I often say to myself, you know, the graveyards are full of indispensable people. If you're not the only person who can do this particular task and you're really being pressed to do it, then consider the fact that there is somebody else out there who can do it as well. And those are tasks you should certainly think about saying no to.

[Mike Carothers]

I would imagine it would help if you're not somebody who does this well or easily to. To practice on little things before you practice on the big things.

[Vanessa Patrick]

It's really important to practice because the skill set is something that you have to develop over time even. I honestly spend a lot of time thinking about how best and how most precisely to deliver a refusal response. So I might know that I want to say no, but I always buy time from the asker to be able to craft the noise in a way that's more effective.

[Mike Carothers]

And you also said something that's kind of interesting too, is that you may not have strong feelings one way or the other. So in those cases, how do you decide? I mean, I could do it, it's not a big deal, but I'd kind of really rather not. So, but you know, what do I do?

[Vanessa Patrick]

As soon as you say no, chances are the person just goes to the next person on their list. So it's not such a big deal. The other thing to think about is all the things you could be doing instead of this particular task that you really did not want to do. There are so many ways you could spend your time that are more meaningful and much more purpose driven. Recognizing that just filling our calendar with tasks that are not aligned to our own priorities and preferences are not a good way to spend one's time. So one of the tools that I provide in the book is something called personal policies, which is setting up these rules about what you care about and the areas that you do want to invest in and making sure that you invest in those areas. So, for example, we can audit anyone's calendar and look at in your calendar in your week. Does that calendar look like the calendar that you want to see? Is it aligned with what you most care about? And if your calendar is filled with material that are filled with appointments that have nothing to do with what you're interested in or what you're good at, or what you want to bring to the table as a human being, then you need to rethink your priorities and develop some personal policies and some rules around how you want to spend your time and energy.

[Mike Carothers]

There are times though, where somebody needs a favor, somebody needs you to do something or wants you to do something, and it might put you out, it might be disruptive, but it would be a really good thing to do. It's what a friend does, you know, drive me to the airport. Well, he could take an Uber, but, you know, then he might miss his plane and, you know, but I don't really have time, but I could make the time. Those kind of things I think people struggle with.

[Vanessa Patrick]

Yes, there are some asks which are called hero's journey asks. And hero's journey asks are asks that are very hard for you to perform. They are effortful, time consuming, but they benefit the other person immensely. And so if you can undertake those heroes journeys ask, you have to recognize that you are taking on something that's going to be inconveniencing, but that it benefits the other person. And when you're weighing those, the cost and the benefit, you make that decision. But making that decision with clarity and with intention is better than falling into the trap of making a decision on the fly. If you think about it and decide, you know, this is how I do want to spend my time, this is a favor that's worth responding to favorably, then yes, by all means.

[Mike Carothers]

I wonder, I don't know how you would study this, but I have this sense that people who say yes all the time get asked more often and that if you start to say no, people will stop asking so much. If you're the go to person because you'll do anything for anybody, well, then everybody's gonna come.

[Vanessa Patrick]

Yes, in fact, there is research on that. And the research really shows that there is a gender differ that comes into play. Women are much more likely to struggle with saying no, but they are also more likely to be asked to take on tasks which researchers call non promotable tasks. So tasks in workplaces that have nothing to do with your actual job, but someone needs to do it. Women are more likely to be asked to take on those tasks. In fact, 44% more likely to take on to be asked to take on non promotable task and 76% more likely to say yes to those non promotable tasks compared to men who are more like who would say yes only 51% of the time.

[Mike Carothers]

One of the things that you mentioned that you write about in your book that I found really interesting, and this is particularly valuable when you're dealing with really pushy people, is that you're 34 times more likely to say yes to an ask in person versus in an email or a text or maybe even a phone call that if you want to say no, trying to do it not face to face is pretty important. And also it's not just what you're being asked to do, it's also who's doing the ask. And you're more likely to say yes to some people and say no to others. Right.

[Vanessa Patrick]

So the people who are the easiest to say no to are the people who are close to us and to whom with and with whom we have more secure relationships. So close friends and family. If we say no to them, we are not concerned that our relationship will suffer or that our reputations are at risk. The other group of people that we can comfortably say no to are strangers who we will never encounter again. The large majority of people, however, unfortunately for us, fall into the bucket of acquaintances. People with whom we have weak social ties and who we do want to impress and who we do want to have relationships with or positive relationships with. Those are the people we struggle to say no to the most because we do worry about that relationship and that reputation.

[Mike Carothers]

Well, I think you've empowered people to say no and not feel so bad about it that saying no can be a good thing. I've been talking with Professor Vanessa Patrick from the University of Houston. She's author of the book the Power of Saying the New Science of how to say no that puts you in charge of your life. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Vanessa. I really, really enjoyed the conversation.

[Vanessa Patrick]

No, that's quite a compliment. Thank you, Mike. I appreciate it.

[Mike Carothers]

You know, some summer days you just don't want to cook, going out or even getting takeout. I mean, that's gotten so expensive. So our solution is Factor Factor delivers fresh chef crafted meals. They're ready in just two minutes and then you're eating a restaurant quality meal that is so good and cheaper than going out or getting takeout. With 45 weekly menu options, you can pick gourmet meals you will love here. This is right off their website. On their menu, Salmon piccata with cauliflower mash and garlic broccoli or chimichurri Filet mignon and shrimp or smoky Gouda chicken with red potatoes and green beans. Now being a Factor veteran, let me explain. These are not frozen meals. These are fresh restaurant quality meals delivered to your door. Now you don't have to, but we always put them on dinner plates because they're too good to eat out of the container. They come in two minutes in the microwave and you're having a real delicious dietitian approved gourmet meal. That is so not fast food. Now here I'm going to make this very easy to try. Get [e-mail] something50off and use code something50OFF to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code [e-mail] something 50 off for 50% off plus free shipping factormeals.com something50OFF and that promo code is in the show notes you chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. You often hear people say they just want to be happy, that a happy life is a good life. The problem that brings up is that happiness is really just a fleeting emotion. You can be happy one minute and not happy the next. Your life can't be happy all the time. In fact, 40% of people worldwide say they are not happy. And the reason is happiness is not sustainable. It's an emotion, not a state of being. What people likely mean when they say they want to lead a happy life is they want a life of satisfaction. You can lead a satisfied life. Doesn't mean you'll be happy all the time. But overall life satisfaction, that sounds pretty good. And here to explain more about the difference between happiness and satisfaction is Dr. Jennifer Gutman. She is a psychologist in private practice and author of a book called beyond the Six Secrets of Life Satisfaction. Hi Jennifer. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Thank you so much for having me, Mike.

[Mike Carothers]

So I get the Sense that what you call a life of satisfaction other people call happiness. It's just a semantic thing that happiness may not be the word you would use, but the goal is the same. And if you're seeking a life of happiness, aren't you still on the right path?

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

I think that it's always been that people are searching for happiness. I mean, it's literally written into the Declaration of Independence that we have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But happiness is an emotion. It comes and goes. It's not meant to be long lasting. It never was. So I think that it's always sent a confusing message to our brains, which is why it's not surprising that now there's hundreds of influencers and people and there's podcasts and there's books all about, you know, targeting happiness, except that it's. It's not meant to be an emotion that you can sustain. Something that is sustainable is satisfaction, but people aren't targeting that because it's not as sexy. So I don't know that it's any harder to be satisfied. It's that we're focusing on the wrong thing.

[Mike Carothers]

So if happiness is this fleeting emotion, then what is. Specifically, what is satisfaction?

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Satisfaction is, if you think about it, it's like contentment or feeling at peace with yourself, how you feel at the end of a really productive day. Whereas happiness is how you feel when you see a child smile or you get a compliment, or you get a really nice text from somebody that's unexpected, or you see a puppy playing. I mean, that's how you feel. You know, that's. You get a fleeting sense of joy or exuberance. That's happiness. But satisfied is a much more sustaining feeling of. Of contentment.

[Mike Carothers]

Well, you just said that. You know, it's that feeling you get after at the end of a very productive day. But if you're truly satisfied, how do you feel at the end of the inevitable, really crappy day? Or do you feel different than people that aren't satisfied because you're going to have those days?

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

We all have so many different emotions we have. Happiness is an emotion like every other emotion. We can feel sad, we can feel happy, we can feel despairing, we can feel hopeless, resentful. Happy is just one of the many emotions we can feel. So, sure, we can have a bad day and feel sad, but that sadness comes and goes. And people don't necessarily question that. They may be frustrated that they had a sad day, but they're not going around wondering why they're failing at sadness, but people feel like they're failing at happiness. So even if you are satisfied with your life, that doesn't preclude you from having a sad day or frustrating day. It just means that you would overall have the resilience to bounce back from a sad day. Knowing that that doesn't mean that you have a hundred sad days ahead of you. It means that you can bounce back, know that maybe tomorrow or the next day is going to be a better day.

[Mike Carothers]

And is that, is that the secret then to knowing that things will get better as opposed to living in a state of sadness and despair? Is despair like the opposite of satisfaction?

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Perfectly said.

[Mike Carothers]

Oh, thanks. So what is despair? Is it hopelessness? And is that part of the problem?

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Yes, I mean, I believe that it is. I believe when you look at resilience, what I say, what I believe is that when you master all the techniques that I talk about in terms of the building blocks of satisfaction, you develop resilience. And it's a belief in your ability to bounce back from an adversity with a renewed sense of strength, positivity, hope, and purpose. And that is the things that combat a sense of existential despair. So that you go back into the next day with a belief in all of your ability to tackle the next problem, as opposed to going into the next day feeling like, oh my gosh, today is going to be equally bad or worse than yesterday, which is very.

[Mike Carothers]

Hard to do sometimes. And I know you have these techniques to help people overcome this. So explain some of the techniques.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Sure. One of my techniques is avoiding assumptions. And assumptions is what we think that we should be feeling like, let's say, happiness or what we think that people are going to say or do. So let's take for a minute what you were saying about despair. I would say, okay, what's your assumption based on? Where's the evidence that that feeling of despair is going to last and last and last in the past when you felt like that? Because you know you must feel this because in the past, of course, despair is an emotion you must have felt despairing before. Has it lasted for the length of time that you're presuming it's going to last for? Or have you been able to bounce back from it? Where's the evidence that it's going to continue to last? Or has something happened to pull you out of it? And do you have enough evidence to present to a jury of your peers that this is this feeling, this emotion is never going to stop? Because emotions do come and Go. They, they are all, all of them are not long lasting, including that feeling that you're so low that it feels like you're not going to come back up. That's what I talk to people about. Challenging those assumptions that, that negativity bias that we are in a place that we can't pull ourselves out of. And then another one of my techniques, which would be decision making. What decision am I going to make today? To change positive direction so that maybe today we'll write the course, put, put it back on a course that makes me feel like I have a little bit more autonomy or a little bit more of an, an empowered feeling about my life so that I can start to pull myself back onto the track.

[Mike Carothers]

In the quest to lead a satisfied life, as you call it. That. And I'm sure some people are very content and satisfied. But I know that it also seems human nature to worry about the future, to not be satisfied, to expect something bad to happen that you need to prepare for because it's human nature.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

That's exactly right. And that is because we are preset as mammals to have a negativity bias. We believe that we're looking for danger around every corner and that something is going to happen. So we look for the possibility that something is not going to turn out right, which is why we anticipate bad things happening instead of good things happening. But the awareness of our predisposition to a negativity bias can help us not be as afraid of the fact that it's going to happen. We can tell ourselves, okay, it's likely that I'm going to think this is going to turn out more, you know, worse than it. It may. And I need to remind myself if I was going to have a column of positives and negatives that last time there were more positives. Even though my brain keeps pulling me back to the negatives. I have, have a lot of clients that have a ton of negative, you know, anticipation and assumptions before they do things. And I'll have them make three columns before they go out. I'll have them write a column, you know, to indicate on a scale of 1 to 10, how do you feel before you go in terms of dread or anticipatory anxiety? Then while you're out during the event, what's your dread during, on a scale of 1 to 10? And then after you leave, when you're walking home or going home, on a scale of 1 to 10, what's your dread then? Because how you reflect on the event can also be. You can Also have a negativity bias. If you let too much time elapse before you engage in this rating scale. And all of them are so surprised because the anticipatory anxiety rating is really high. They think that 10 or 8, it's going to be terrible during is usually really low. And if they score themselves right after about whether they had a good time, it's also really low. But if they wait two or three days to score, on reflection, the rating starts to go up again. That they remember not having as good a time as they actually did.

[Mike Carothers]

So how do you know, though, that this is cumulative? And by that I mean that because it seems very effortful every time you do something to have to make a list and make columns. And maybe it helps that instance. But where's the evidence that if you do it enough that you get to this sustained life satisfaction that you talk about, as opposed to. It just helps in this one situation because I can look back and realize that most times things worked out, but it doesn't really seem like it helps the next time. It's hard to pull that evidence and put it up front when you're facing another thing. And I love this idea of the sustained life satisfaction. Just seems so hard to accumulate all of this stuff together and get that.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

So there is so much research that we can actually change the neural pathways in our brains with practice. The neural pathways in our brains in the neural circuitry is like. It changes and adapts, like every muscle in our bodies. And I'm not promising a quick fix, but I am promising that if you put effort into what I'm suggesting, then it does change the neural circuitry in your brain. I have this client who did what I had suggested with the three columns. He doesn't need to do the three columns anymore. We were just talking the other day about an event, and he was saying, it's so funny because I know that in the past I would have thought, I don't want to go to such and such an event. But I know that's only coming from a place of negativity, not because I'm actually not going to have fun at the event. And he was able to do that without any columns or without thinking about it. It was just because he had practiced enough times going through this exercise, like any kind of exercise for any part of our bodies. The more that you practice, your brain does learn. And I think it's important to remember that brain is listening to everything that you say to yourself all of the time. If you talk negatively to yourself, Your brain is listening. If you talk in a different way to yourself, your brain is also listening.

[Mike Carothers]

And when you think about how tough we are on ourselves, how we say things to ourselves that aren't very nice, that we never say to somebody else, it's taking a toll.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

We are extremely hard on ourselves. I believe that we have very critical inner monologues running most of the time. And I think that it's important that we stop the critical inner monologuing and try to transfer that critical inner coach to a compassionate coach. Because the critical inner coaches that we have are ineffective. And if we could change them to more compassionate coaches, that would be much more effective in terms of, you know, becoming more satisfied in your life. And you're right. We don't talk to ourselves the way we would talk to our children or the way that we would talk to our friends. We talk to ourselves much more critically. And we're not doing ourselves any favors by talking to ourselves like that. Because in the same way that we don't talk to people in our lives like that, because we know if we talk to them like that, there's no way, if they were on a baseball field and we talked like that to them, that they would hit a home run because they'd be so rattled by how we were talking to them. Why would we expect that if we were talking to ourselves like that that we'd be making any home runs in life talking to ourselves so critically?

[Mike Carothers]

I love that. That's so true. That's so true. But it seems hard to do. I mean, it's hard to catch yourself because it's such a constant flow of self criticism to actually stop it. I mean, it's very, again, it's like a very effortful thing that you have to, hey, wait, I'm talking that way to myself now. I should stop doing that.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

You are absolutely right. What I am asking of people is to change the way that they think, to change the way that they talk to themselves. And I'm saying that if you're motivated, you can do it. I mean, I live my brand. I started out as somebody that was an extremely critical thinker about herself. I was extremely anxious, I was extremely shy. And I turned around the way that I think based on using these techniques on myself. And people laugh because they think I'm the most extroverted person now and I'm not afraid of anything. I mean, all of that is not true. It's just that that if you use these techniques enough on yourself, then it has long lasting and actually amazing Impact. And I've seen that.

[Mike Carothers]

I just find it so interesting that I think for most people, if you look back over your life, a lot of things have a tendency to work out, but we don't look to the future that way. We don't take that evidence that things pretty much worked out in the past and they'll probably work out in the future. Not everything, but a lot of things.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

That's exactly right. I mean, some of my favorite conversations with clients is saying to them, how do you know that? They'll say something, they'll tell me a story, we'll be talking about it, and we'll be filled with assumptions. And it's making them so anxious. And it's, it's, it, it makes me, you know, it's heartbreaking to listen to. It really is for me. And then I'll say, but how do you know that? And they'll be, they'll say, what do you mean? And I'm, I'm like, there's so many places where I want to know, how do you know that that's what's going to. Going to happen? How do you know that's what's going to be? Just because you think it, doesn't make it so. And can you come up with evidence for me that all of those fears that you have are actually going to come true, or have any of them ever come true? And, and it changes the dialogue so much when people are actually forced to meditate on whether these fears have ever actually come true or just because they are thinking these things. That's sending them down a rabbit hole of potential fears.

[Mike Carothers]

All of what you're talking about has very little to do with happiness. The way people talk about happiness. It isn't happiness. It is, as you say, it's his life satisfaction.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

People say all the time, are you happy? And are you happy? Is. Doesn't make sense because are you happy? Is a momentary feeling. You can only ask somebody if they're happy right after something would have happened that they're happy about. And if you ask somebody that and they think that they're failing at being happy all of the time, then it sends their brain, which is always listening, into a really confused place. If we can change the vernacular for everybody to are you satisfied? Are you content? That would be an amazing start to maybe turning around some of the. This existential despair, as you said, that we're experiencing in this country that has led to so much of this increases in depression that we're experiencing in this country to such a wide Degree.

[Mike Carothers]

But when people say, for example, I just want to be happy, what they really mean is, I want to be satisfied. And so maybe they're using the wrong words in your view, but the goal's the same, right?

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Right. But they may already be on the road to that. And when they say, I want to be happy, if you pause and point out to them, but you did have moments of happiness, which is all happiness can be. It's fleeting. You already have the thing that exists when it comes to the word happy. Like, you had that already. So now you need to focus on are you as satisfied as you can be? Because the fleeting aspects of happiness you probably did have this week in the same way that you probably did have fleeting moments of sadness and every other emotion that. That human beings are capable of over the past week. So if that's what you've already had, focus more on whether you're as satisfied as you can be now, whether you can have more moments of fleeting happiness that are outside of your control.

[Mike Carothers]

Well, but it does seem, though, that there are some people who do have that, or they at least give off that sense that they're satisfied. My grandmother was someone like that. She always seemed very content in her life, even though she lost her husband early and there were plenty of bumps in the road. But she had something that I always envied because she seemed content. She just seemed content.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Yes, but that's exactly what she probably was. That's the goal, right? She seemed content in her life. It's not that you're saying that she seemed happy all the time. She seemed content all the time. And whether she was or whether she wasn't, I. I don't know. But that would be the goal. She was giving off a vibe of contentment as opposed to what people are aiming for today based on social media, where people see somebody looking fabulous and happy and then think that should be the sustaining emotion, as opposed to whatever peacefulness your grandmother was giving off, which felt like some kind of groundedness of stability that probably was very common to you. And whether she felt like that her whole life or she felt like that during the latter part of her life, I don't know. But it may be that she came to that with hard work over the course of her life. And I'm gonna guess that she did come to that feeling with hard work over the course of her life.

[Mike Carothers]

Well, the distinction you make between happiness and satisfaction is something I haven't really thought much about, but it's a very different and very liberating way to think that can change the path of your life. Dr. Jennifer Gutman has been my guest. She is a psychologist in private practice and the name of her book is beyond the Six Secrets of Life Satisfaction. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. I appreciate you coming on. Thanks, Jennifer.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

[Mike Carothers]

If your relationship could use a boost, a little look can go a long way. It's all about eye contact. Direct eye contact usually lasts about 2 seconds, and doubling that time sends a powerful signal to your partner. When you are newly attracted to someone, you tend to stare a little longer and say more with your eyes. Once the curiosity is gone, most of us lose the impulse to prolong that eye contact. But gazing directly into someone's eyes for longer than two seconds will be noticed by both of you. It triggers that curiosity and stimulates oxytocin, the bonding hormone. And that is something you should know. Our secret weapon in growing our audience has always been you. Telling someone you know about this podcast really helps us. So I'd appreciate that if you would share this podcast with someone you know. I'm micahruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. You might think you know fairy tales and you might think that they are cute and sweet and boring, but the real Grimm fairy tales were not cute at all. They were very dark and they were often very grim. On Grim Grimmer Grimmest, we tell a grim fairy tale to a bunch of kids. Perfect for car rides or screen free entertainment. Grim Grimmer Grimmest activates kids imaginations and instigates fun conversations because fairy tales speak to all of us at a very deep, primal level and they raise interesting topics and questions that are worth chewing over together as a family. Every episode is rated Grim, Grimmer or Grimmest. So you, your kids, your whole family can choose. What is the right level of grim for you Though, if you're listening with grandma, she's just gonna go for Grimmest. Trust me on this one. Tune in to Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest and our new season available now.

[Vanessa Patrick]

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

[Mike Carothers]

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies and we come at.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Them from different perspectives.

[Mike Carothers]

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas and I don't he's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dune 2 is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

Host Unspooled, a podcast. We talk about good movies, critical hits.

[Mike Carothers]

Fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed ems, we're talking the Home Alone from Grease to the Dark Knight. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, like Ganja and Hess.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

[Mike Carothers]

Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Jennifer Gutman]

And don't forget to hit the follow button.

[Vanessa Patrick]

RA.