How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How You Are Being Psychologically Targeted & The Extraordinary Power of Curiosity"

Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guest 1: Sandra Matz, Professor at Columbia Business School
Guest 2: Scott Shigioka, Curiosity Expert and Author
Release Date: January 16, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers delves into two compelling topics: the intricate mechanisms of psychological targeting and the transformative power of curiosity. Through insightful discussions with experts Sandra Matz and Scott Shigioka, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how data influences behavior and how cultivating curiosity can enhance personal and professional relationships.

---

Part 1: The Dark Side of Data - Psychological Targeting

Timestamp: [01:15] – [31:24]

Guest: Sandra Matz

Defining Psychological Targeting

Sandra Matz introduces psychological targeting as the sophisticated use of algorithms and extensive data collection to interpret and influence human behavior on a psychological level.

Notable Quote:
"Psychological targeting is essentially the ability of algorithms and computers to read our minds by translating the vast data we generate into intimate psychological insights."
— Sandra Matz [07:06]

Data Collection and Usage

Matz explains that individuals generate approximately 6 gigabytes of data every hour through various activities, such as social media interactions, credit card transactions, and smartphone sensor data. This data is collected by numerous entities, including data brokers, companies, and governments.

Notable Quote:
"Every person every hour generates about 6 gigabytes of data. That's an enormous amount of data and it's incredibly cheap to get hold of."
— Sandra Matz [01:29]

Ethical Implications

The conversation highlights the dual nature of psychological targeting. While it can manipulate and exploit individuals, it also holds potential for positive applications, such as identifying mental health issues and providing timely support.

Notable Quote:
"We can use data to manipulate and exploit, but we also have the opportunity to use it to help people."
— Sandra Matz [08:40]

Real-World Examples

Matz cites the 2015 Facebook incident where algorithms predicted teenagers’ mental health issues and were used to target them with advertisements. She contrasts this with the possibility of using similar data to offer support and assistance instead.

Notable Quote:
"Facebook was accused of predicting whether teenagers were suffering from depression and using those insights to target them with ads. The alternative could have been connecting them with the support they needed."
— Sandra Matz [07:38]

Data Privacy and Protection

Matz emphasizes the importance of data protection regulations and introduces concepts like federated learning, which processes data on individual devices to enhance privacy without sacrificing service quality.

Notable Quote:
"Federated learning allows data to be processed on your smartphone, keeping your information secure while still improving the service."
— Sandra Matz [25:15]

Recommendations

To safeguard personal data, Matz recommends:

• Supporting regulations that enforce privacy by design.
• Adopting technologies that minimize data sharing.
• Being more mindful of app permissions and data sharing settings.

Notable Quote:
"Shifting towards privacy by design means making it easier for consumers to protect their data without sacrificing the benefits of personalization."
— Sandra Matz [28:11]

---

Part 2: The Transformative Power of Curiosity

Timestamp: [32:22] – [54:19]

Guest: Scott Shigioka

Defining Curiosity

Scott Shigioka defines curiosity as the fundamental desire to know more, encompassing both intellectual and emotional dimensions. He emphasizes that true curiosity involves a genuine interest in understanding others deeply.

Notable Quote:
"Curiosity is the desire to know, and it goes beyond intellectual inquiry to engage the heart as well."
— Scott Shigioka [33:22]

Benefits of Curiosity

Shigioka outlines how curiosity enhances relationships by fostering deeper connections, reducing stress, and promoting longevity. It encourages active listening and meaningful interactions, which are crucial for personal and professional growth.

Notable Quote:
"Curiosity strengthens our relationships, reduces stress, and increases our ability to handle life's challenges."
— Scott Shigioka [33:58]

Practical Strategies to Cultivate Curiosity

Shigioka introduces the "DIVE" motto—Detach, Intend, Value, Embrace—as a framework to foster curiosity:

1. Detach: Let go of assumptions and biases before engaging in conversations.

   Notable Quote:
   "Detach means letting go of your assumptions, biases, and certainty to approach interactions with an open mind."
   — Scott Shigioka [46:06]

2. Intend: Set a purpose for being curious, such as understanding a colleague’s perspective or resolving a conflict.

   Notable Quote:
   "Intend involves setting the mindset and preparing for curious engagement through mental rehearsal."
   — Scott Shigioka [46:06]

3. Value: Recognize and honor the dignity and humanity of others, regardless of differences.

4. Embrace: Welcome challenges and difficult conversations as opportunities to deepen understanding.

Personal Stories and Impact

Shigioka shares his personal journey of traveling across the United States to engage with individuals from diverse backgrounds. This experience not only broadened his perspective but also demonstrated how curiosity can bridge divides and foster mutual respect.

Notable Quote:
"During my 12-month trip, I connected with people vastly different from me, which transformed my understanding and appreciation of diverse perspectives."
— Scott Shigioka [37:24]

Overcoming Barriers to Curiosity

Addressing common fears, Shigioka advises that curiosity doesn't require grand gestures. Instead, it can be nurtured through everyday interactions by asking deeper, more meaningful questions and genuinely listening to others.

Notable Quote:
"Curiosity releases dopamine, making it not just beneficial but also pleasurable to engage deeply with others."
— Scott Shigioka [42:18]

Avoiding Predatory Curiosity

Shigioka warns against "predatory curiosity," where apparent interest is a façade for ulterior motives. True curiosity is grounded in genuine interest without hidden agendas.

Notable Quote:
"Predatory curiosity disguises manipulation as interest, whereas true curiosity remains open and genuine."
— Scott Shigioka [44:18]

---

Conclusion

Mike Carruthers wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of understanding psychological targeting to protect personal data and harnessing curiosity to enrich relationships and personal growth. He encourages listeners to apply the insights shared by Sandra Matz and Scott Shigioka to navigate the complexities of data privacy and to cultivate a more curious and connected life.

---

Notable Insights

• Data as a Double-Edged Sword: Psychological targeting can be both manipulative and beneficial, depending on its application.
• Federated Learning: A promising technology that balances data utility and privacy by processing information locally.
• Curiosity's Role in Relationships: Enhances connection, understanding, and emotional well-being.
• DIVE Framework: A practical guide to fostering genuine curiosity in interactions.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a balanced exploration of modern data challenges and the timeless value of curiosity. By addressing the ethical dimensions of data usage and providing actionable strategies to cultivate curiosity, Mike Carruthers ensures that listeners are both informed and empowered to make better decisions in their personal and professional lives.

---

For More Information:

• Sandra Matz's TED Talk: [Link in Show Notes]
• Scott Shigioka's Book: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World [Link in Show Notes]

Transcript

[June Parker]

Sometimes the best part of a secret is being part of its reveal, and it's even better if I can solve a mystery or two of my own along the way. When I'm looking to escape reality and bring out my competitive side, I turn to a tale of murder and romance in June's Journey. It's a game full of secrets where every clue brings you closer to the truth. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game where you play as June Parker as she uncovers scandalous family secrets at her sister's estate. I love playing June's Journey because I get genuinely invested in both the storyline and my ability to spot all the clues at each level. Each chapter brings you deeper into the story. Plus, it's set in the Roaring twenties, so beyond discovering clues, you can explore stunning scenes from New York parlors to Parisian sidewalks. They get more complex the further along you go, and it's so fun to compete with friends and other players for the fastest case solving and highest scores. How sharp are your observation skills? Put them to the test in June's Journey Download for free today on iOS and Android.

[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know how many calories do you burn just eating the food you eat? Then you're being targeted based on the data collected about you. And there is a lot of data collected.

[Sandra Matz]

Every person every hour generates about 6 gigabytes of data. So that's an enormous amount of data and it's incredibly cheap to get hold of. But for me the really big question is not just who collects what data, but really what do they use it for?

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, do you love your snooze alarm or hate it? There are some things worth knowing about it and curiosity, it's a powerful tool and there are a lot of ways to make it work for you.

[Scott Shigioka]

Curiosity inspires curiosity in others oftentimes. And so what I mean by that is when you are getting curious about someone else, oftentimes they will be inspired to give that curiosity back to you. And you know, researchers sometimes call this like the give and take spiral.

[Mike Carruthers]

All this today on something you should know. Every time I've had to hire someone, it had to be done fast. But as I've discovered anyway, hiring can be very time consuming and even still, there are no guarantees. Which is why when it comes to hiring, indeed is all you need, right? The trick to finding the right person is to make sure a lot of qualified people know about your job opening. And you see, indeed has this thing called sponsored jobs. So your post jumps to the top of the page for relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want to reach faster. And it works. Now here's what I think is the magic of Indeed. They take this process of hiring, which is something you probably don't do a lot or feel really skilled at, and they guide you through it so you end up with the right person for the job quickly. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. You only pay for results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show get a $75 sponsor job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com something just go to Indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Something you should know, fascinating intel, the.

[Scott Shigioka]

World'S top experts and practical advice you.

[Mike Carruthers]

Can use in your life today. Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers hi there. You can probably hear it in my voice. I have a nast a nasty cold and it's making me sound funny. But you know the show must go on. So let's go on. Here's something you've probably wondered about because you know that all food has calories in it, but the act of eating the food must burn calories. But how much? Well, it actually depends on what food you're talking about. When you burn some of the calories you eat simply by digesting them, it's called the thermic effect. Overall, it's about 10% of the calories that you consume are burned up through digestion. However, fats have only about a 3% thermic effect. That means if you eat 100 fat calories, you'll only burn about three of them from digestion. Vegetables and fruits have a thermic effect of about 20%. Proteins have a thermic effect of about 30%. If you eat 300 protein calories, you'll burn off 90 calories while digesting them. You may be able to increase the thermic effect. One way is by increasing your muscle mass. People with more muscle mass burn more calories digesting food than people with more body fat. There is also reason to believe that not eating two hours before you go to bed and chewing your food carefully and thoroughly can amp up the thermic effect. And that is something you should know. I'm sure you've heard conversations about how companies keep personal information about you. We've talked about that here and you probably think or you know, I've always thought that it's stuff like credit card information or what products you've purchased or perhaps somebody is tracking your activities online. But as you're about to hear, it is far more than that. With every app you get or credit cards you get or website you shop at, somewhere in the fine print, you agree to allow many of these companies to not only track what you do and what you buy and other various personal information about you, you also give them permission to sell that information to pretty much anybody who wants to buy it. So your very personal data is out there and people are using it to do something called psychological targeting. And this should be a concern to you and everyone else as you're about to hear from Sandra Matz. She is a professor at Columbia Business School and has an excellent TED Talk about psychological targeting. She is author of a book called the Data Driven Science of Predicting and Changing Human Behavior. Hi, Sandra, thank you for coming on and talking about this.

[Sandra Matz]

Thank you so much for having me, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

So first, I guess we must define psychological targeting and what it is so we know what we're all talking about here. So help me understand it as briefly and as simply as possible.

[Sandra Matz]

Yeah. So the way that I think of psychological targeting is essentially the ability of algorithms and computers to read our mind. So taking all of the data that we generate on a daily basis, anything from your social media data to your credit card swipes, the sensors that are embedded in your smartphone, algorithms can take these data, translate it into really intimate insights of who we are on a psychological level, and then use these insights to influence our behavior.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so can you give me like a real world example of how this works?

[Sandra Matz]

The classic example there was Facebook in 2015, was essentially accused of predicting whether teenagers, so really part of the most vulnerable population was potentially suffering from something like depression, low self esteem, anxiety. And then they used those insights to try and target them with ads, to sell them out to advertisers. You could also imagine the complete opposite. But if you can figure out that someone might be deviating from their typical behavior, they might be sliding gradually into a depression, why not connect them with some of the support that they would need? Why not reach out to some of their loved ones, their caregivers, to say, hey, something seems to be off. Why don't you reach out and try to provide some support?

[Mike Carruthers]

So you're saying that instead of just gathering that data that points to a problem like kids suffering from depression, rather than sell those names to those contacts to advertisers, the other thing you could do with that data is to help those people.

[Sandra Matz]

So for me, it's really a question of the, the, the insights that we can get about people's psychology has really these two sides to it. On some level. We can use it against people. Right? We can use it to manipulate and exploit. But for me, the bigger question is, what if we use it the other way? What if we actually use it to help people?

[Mike Carruthers]

So when I thought, I mean, when I think of psychological targeting, I don't know all that much about it, but I think of more of things like if I'm searching online for a ski jacket, all of a sudden I'm going to see lots of ads for ski jackets. And that. That's psychological targeting.

[Sandra Matz]

Yeah. For me, at the fundamental level, psychological targeting is really a way of understanding people. So the same way that in an offline context, back in the day, when it was just us living with other people, we always try to understand who's on the other. We don't talk to a three year old the same way that we talk to our spouse or the way that we talk to our boss. So any offline conversation is on some level customized and tailored. We try and figure out which topics might be the most interesting. We try and figure out how we talk to people. Even kids know that. Right? Kids know exactly how to talk to mom to get something versus dad to, to get something. And for me, psychological targeting is essentially taking this, this idea to the online space. So it's trying to understand people and then using these insights to potentially influence their behavior and persuade them to do something. And sometimes that is in their best interest and sometimes it's not.

[Mike Carruthers]

So my example is psychological. I mean, if I'm looking for a ski jacket, you can use that information to send me ads for ski jackets. I'm being psychologically targeted.

[Sandra Matz]

The way that I would think about the example that you gave is much more of a behavioral targeting approach. So I take a very specific behavioral. So in this case you're searching for a ski jacket and I use that to predict future behavior. So that's a very behaviorist assumption of like, well, your past behavior directly predicts your future behavior. The psychological part comes in when we try to make sense of you holistically. So instead of saying, well, you're interested in a ski jacket and maybe you visited a certain restaurant, maybe there's something that you've posted about on social media and we take those cues in isolation. What psychological targeting does, it's trying to put together these puzzle pieces. So instead of Saying, well, it's just a ski jacket. Can we learn something about maybe you're being very adventurous, maybe you're being very active. That kind of almost brings out the person behind the data.

[Mike Carruthers]

And what happens to that data? I mean, who's doing this and what are they, how are they storing it and where is it going and who gets access to it?

[Sandra Matz]

That's a great question. Because generally speaking, the data is out there, right? Every person, every hour generates about 6 gigabytes of data, Gigabytes of data. So that's an enormous amount of data and it's incredibly cheap to get hold of. That's because there's all of these data brokers out there. There's a lot of first party data that companies collect that obviously governments collect. But for me, the really big question is not just who collects what data, but really what do they use it for? And that's also what I think recent regulation are trying to put a lot more front and center.

[Mike Carruthers]

But what kind of data is it? I mean, is it, is it a profile, is it a report that, you know, Mike Carruthers likes ski jackets, but he also is a funny guy? I mean, what does it say?

[Sandra Matz]

Yeah, so at the very basic level, it is really just these individual data points, right? And that is already a lot. So that could be anything from again, what you post on social media, but also every time you swipe your credit card, that gives us a very intimate insight into not just your routines and habits, but also like, where are you, who do you potentially meet? Same is true for smartphones, right? They come embedded with a gazillion sensors that make sure that your phone works the way it should. But it also means that I capture your location with the GPS records pretty much all the time. I can see who you're talking to, who you send messages to, phones showing up in the same place gives me a sense of who you're connected to. So at the very beginning, all of these data points just float out there in isolation. Now that's where AI and machine learning comes in, because we can translate these individual traces into psychological profiles. And it used to be the case that you needed your own model to do this. Now, with generative AI and all of these models like ChatGPT, you can essentially just take Mike's social media Data and ask ChatGPT, hey, based on all of these traces, based on what he talks about online, who do you think Mike is? Just give me a sense of his personality, of his values and so on. And these models do a remarkable job at translating data into psychological profiles, even though they've never been explicitly trained to do so.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so since you study this, is this a good thing or a bad thing?

[Sandra Matz]

It's a double edged sword, right? So the moment that I have the ability to peek into your mental health and potentially change it, that means that I can use it the way that I just described to help you. But it can also mean going back to the previous example, as Facebook was trying to use it, to say, well, here's a teenager who's clearly struggling and who might be the most susceptible to the ads that you're showing them. So it very much depends on how you use it. And for me, the challenge that we have right now is that it all rests on the assumption that users can essentially make their own decisions. The idea of a lot of the data protection regulations are like, well, just explain to users what's happening with their data and then just give them the control to decide whether they want to do it or not. But it's an incredibly complicated space, right? Like if I really wanted to manage my data all by myself, that would be a 24, 7 full time job and it would mean that I would have to continuously keep up with the latest technology. So for me, shifting towards this, how do we amplify some of the positive use cases while also kind of trying to protect us from abuses, just means that we have to do a much better job at protecting consumers. And that could take different forms.

[Mike Carruthers]

You had said that, I think you had said a moment ago that the average person generates how much data in a day or an hour?

[Sandra Matz]

An hour, it's six gigabytes. So this is, I think I at some point calculated that it's like half a million times more than what the computer used that we used to, that we launched the Challenger rocket to space, had capacity for. In just one hour, we generate that much data. So it's absolutely insane.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, how am I doing that? Because I don't feel that busy, I don't feel like I'm generating all that data. How am I doing that?

[Sandra Matz]

And for me, that's actually the interesting part because most of the data that we generate, we don't intentionally create it, right? So in psychology there is this distinction between identity claims. So this is all of the data that you know about. This is you putting something on social media because you want to send a signal that you're maybe open minded, extroverted and so on. There's a second category of data and that's what we call behavioral residue. So those are all of the traces that you leave and create without really thinking about it. So again, take your smartphone, for example. There's so many sensors embedded in that. So every kind of second I get a snapshot of where you are based on your GPS record. Again, it might not seem super intrusive or intimate if I know the specific location that you're in, but I can easily infer where you live, I can easily infer who you meet. And then there's all of these other things like credit card spending, the fact that we have cameras now on every corner. I think in New York, you can't go from Lower Manhattan to the Upper west side of where I'm based without being seen by a camera, unless you swim through the Hudson, which I don't recommend. So there's all of these data points that we generate without really thinking, and that just accumulates to these 6 gigabytes.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're talking about psychological targeting. Sandra Matz is my guest. She's a professor at Columbia Business School and author of the book the Data Driven Science of Predicting and Changing Human Behavior. I really love it when I find a great new podcast, and then of course, I have to share that with everyone. And one I really want you to listen to is Curiosity Weekly. Curiosity Weekly from Discovery makes sense of some of the biggest questions and ideas shaping our world. It's all about new discoveries happening in science and tech. They have expert guests that make it all make sense. It's a bit similar to something you should know, which is why I think you'll like it, but it takes a different spin. Listen to Curiosity Weekly and you'll discover things like how neuroscientists are studying TikTok and social media habits to see which chemicals are being released in your brain that make you so obsessed. Or how it is that you can fly from Florida to England on a plane using recycled plastic jet fuel and how AI can now read hieroglyphics from Egyptian pyramids. What's so great about Curiosity Weekly is there's so much to learn about science and tech, and these guys seem to have their finger on the pulse of the most interesting food science, the science behind social media, the science of algorithms, computer science. And it's all explained in a fascinating way every week on Curiosity Weekly. Listen to Curiosity Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

[June Parker]

A new year means new opportunities, and if you've been thinking about starting your own business, let this be your sign to take the leap. Of course, this decision comes with a lot of questions, like how do I get started how do I come up with a brand? How do I sell stuff to people? What am I even going to sell? Well, if you have all those questions, you can take a deep breath because Shopify's got you. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand, open for business and get your first sale. With Shopify, you can get your store up and running easily with thousands of customizable templates. No coding or design skills required. All you need to do is drag and drop. Their powerful social media tools let you connect all your channels and create Shoppable posts to help you sell everywhere people scroll. And Shopify makes it easy to manage all the details like shipping, taxes and payments from one single dashboard, allowing you to focus on the important stuff like growing your business. The best time to start your business is right now. And with Shopify, your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com realm all lowercase go to shopify.com realm to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com realm.

[Mike Carruthers]

So, Sandra, when a camera captures me walking down the street, does my image get recognized? Do they use facial recognition and they know who I am? And then does that image get paired with all this other data as part of a package of information about me?

[Sandra Matz]

Yeah. So that very much depends on which entity you're thinking about. If you're thinking about governments, easiest thing to do because we. With facial recognition, it's extremely easy to pick up even if you're wearing a mask. That's one of the things that we've learned. It's extremely easy to pick up who you are using these cameras and then by mapping it against the database. And there's data brokers out there that are selling these databases to commercial entities as well. So it's not just governments. Extremely easy. Right. It's like, I need your face, I need a name, and then I connect it across the board.

[Mike Carruthers]

The companies that, that do this make money because they then sell the information to other companies. Is that, is that the business model?

[Sandra Matz]

Yeah. So there's different business models. So the, the one that I just mentioned, data brokers, in my opinion, is actually the worst because they are not creating any value. Right. The only thing that they do is they collect your data and they make a profit by selling it onto third parties. Now, the other business model is essentially trying to see, well, how can I use the data that I collect about you to either capture your attention, keep you on a platform provide service that is better than anything that I could do without the data. And there you could at least make the argument that there is value being generated by saying, I understand you much better. Think of Netflix, right? Like, if there's just no way that you can get through all of the context on Netflix or Amazon without some kind of filtering and some kind of recognition recommendations. So in this case, the business model is essentially saying, the more data I can collect about you, the better I understand you, the better the service will be that I, that I offer. And obviously then the business bottom line is the higher the profits, but also hopefully, the better the user experience.

[Mike Carruthers]

There seems to be like two competing thoughts here, that people are afraid that all this data is being collected about them. But then it also seems that people kind of have thrown their hands up and said, well, there's nothing you can do, so let's not even worry about it. And I don't. Should we be worried about it?

[Sandra Matz]

I think we should absolutely be worried about it. And it's funny because I teach this class on the ethics of personal data, and there's always someone who raises their hand and says, well, I don't care that my data is out there. I have nothing to lose, I have nothing to hide. And to me, that's a very privileged position to be in. And it's also a little bit shortsighted, right? So if you're not worried about your data being out there, that just means that you're currently in a really good spot. But is the saying that I have is that data is permanent, but leadership isn't? So you have no idea what this is going to look like tomorrow? I think in the US the Roe vs Wade Supreme Court decision made this painfully realistic for almost half the population in the U.S. right? So overnight, suddenly, women using period tracking apps, searching stuff on Google, just having their smartphone with them, tracking their GPS location, had to worry about someone knowing about some of the very intimate aspects of their life, whether they might be pregnant, having an abortion that they otherwise wouldn't have wanted to share just based on their data. So for me, this idea that, well, we've given up is a really risky gamble. And I think there's better ways in which we can deal with this.

[Mike Carruthers]

What about the people who think because they say so that they're off the grid, they're not shopping online, they're not doing things that they're not using email so nobody can track them? To which you would say, yeah, it's.

[Sandra Matz]

One of my favorite comments that I oftentimes get when I give talks and it's almost impossible. Right. Unless you live out there somewhere in the woods and grow your own vegetables. You're going to generate data. So we talked about credit card swipes. There's a reason why the mafia uses cash because you can't trace it. It's not true for credit cards, it's not true for payment apps. You carry your smartphone with you pretty much 247 there's very few people I know that don't have a smartphone. And that means again, I can know so many things about you. It's like a strange think about the offline equivalent would be a stranger walking behind you looking over your shoulder. 247 knowing exactly what you do, what you buy, who you meet and so on. So I think most people think of like these social media platforms when we think about the data that we generate. But it's almost impossible. And even if you were to leave all of the gadget at home. Coming back to the topic that we talked about, when it comes to facial recognitions, there is someone who will be able to observe you and what you do across the board.

[Mike Carruthers]

See I've always figured, I mean obviously the credit card company knows what I bought because it's on the statement and whoever I bought it from knows I bought it from them. But the credit card companies then sell that data to somebody else.

[Sandra Matz]

Yeah. And it's incredibly cheap. So I think one of the most shocking discoveries that I made when I was really just starting with this is how cheap your data records are. It's usually like a couple of cents to get really intimate insights into who you are. Sometimes maybe a dollar if you really want to get into something like medical records. But what that means for me, and this I think is also part of the solution is that ideally you don't want this data to be collected in the first place. Now currently the trade off that we have to make is, well, either you can get better service convenience or you have to. But if you want to get that, you have to give up your privacy, self determination to some extent because you sign away your data and there's a risk that this data is going to be used. But there are these new technologies that I don't think enough people are talking about yet that kind of eliminate this trade off. So it's called federated learning. And the idea is that instead of us sending our data to these companies, they can send the intelligence to our smartphones which are really these super powerful computers. It's how Apple for example Trains Siri. So the voice recognition software that they have, instead of collecting all of the user data in a central server, they just say, wait a minute, why don't we send our Siri model to your smartphone, we capture all of your data there, we improve the model, we make sure that we can understand what you're saying and respond appropriately and then we're going to send the intelligence back to Apple so that the model gets better. But your speech data never leaves its safe harbor. So your speech data stays on your phone and it never gets submitted. So this for me is one way in which we can say, well, we still get the benefits from better service and personalization, but we don't have to worry. Just as you were saying, that my data is now sitting somewhere in a server, it's being sold on to other companies or it's being abused in the future because we don't know what leadership looks like tomorrow.

[Mike Carruthers]

So when, when my credit card company sells my data to somebody, somewhere in the fine print. Did I agree to that?

[Sandra Matz]

You did agree to that to some extent. Exactly. So, and you're absolutely right, it's in the fine print that nobody reads. Right. And there's just, we don't stand a chance if you were to really read all of the terms and conditions, which is usually just a bunch of legalese, that would be a full time job and hopefully most of us have better things to do than doing that. I'd much rather spend a meal with my family or my friends and again going through the 50 of the terms and conditions. But you're absolutely right, is that oftentimes the way that this is currently set up is by default we're signing away most of the data that we generate without really understanding what we're doing.

[Mike Carruthers]

That is very surprising because then you would think somebody would come out with a credit card that says use our credit card and we won't sell your data.

[Sandra Matz]

Yeah. And most of the time I think users are just not aware of that. Right. Most of the time we don't even have the capacity to now go and try and compare. But you do see, and I think that's interesting because you do see companies now playing in that space. So Apple, if you walk through New York, most of the Apple ads that you see plastered across the city are all about, well, Apple is all about privacy. Right. So Apple has made it part of their value proposition that says, well compared to some of the other phones that are on the market or other gadgets, we're the ones who care about your privacy.

[Mike Carruthers]

So you often hear the advice that you have to protect your data, but I don't know how to do that. I mean, what does that mean to protect our data?

[Sandra Matz]

So protect our data. For me, means is actually, I think of it in two ways. One is you want to make it much easier for consumers to do the right thing. But if I now have to go through all of the terms and conditions and opt out of data tracking, nobody's going to do that because humans are lazy and we have better stuff to do. So some of it could be regulation that says privacy by design first and that means you have to opt in to data tracking. So now the onus is on companies to convince you that they're really creating a lot of value for you. And it's like you now have to become active to have your data tracked instead of becoming active to not have it tracked. And the second part is really these technologies like federated learning where you, it's not even a trade off. You can get the same quality of, let's say, Siri, if the data is processed on your phone versus it being processed in a central server. And now you have to trust Apple to do the right thing.

[Mike Carruthers]

Given where we are, what is it that you recommend people do or what is it you do maybe different than what I do to protect, as best you can, your own data?

[Sandra Matz]

So I think about this pretty much every single day for the last 15 years and still there's so many times when I mindlessly accept the terms and conditions because I just don't have the energy to now go through all of the cookies. So there's maybe a few things that I do differently because like, especially with a phone, I'm a lot more cautious when I, when it comes to permission. So oftentimes when you download a weather app or your banking app, they ask you to tap into your microphone, look at all of the pictures that you have on your, on your phone, collect your GPS records continuously. So those are things that I might be a little bit more mindful of. But generally speaking speaking, I think just observing my own behavior is why I'm trying to push for these regulations that make it easier for people because I think it's this uphill battle that we just can't win by ourselves.

[Mike Carruthers]

There does, see, you know, there just does seem to be this, this, this whole feeling of, well, there's nothing you can do. And the symptom of that to me has always been like, you know, people have these smart speakers in their house listening all the time and nobody seems to care.

[Sandra Matz]

Yeah, I 100% agree. And I do think that it's actually a narrative that's been carefully crafted by Silicon Valley, this idea that, well, first of all, you have to give us all of your data to get the amazing perks that we offer and there's nothing that you can do anyway. So I think that's been almost like bombarded. We've been bombarded with this message and I don't think this is true anymore. So like I think there's this wake up call that no, there are ways in which we can benefit from our data in a way that a lot more protective.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, this whole subject of psychological targeting is something I don't think people truly understand or don't understand it in the depth that they probably need to. So I really appreciate you explaining all this. Sandra Matz has been my guest. She's a professor at Columbia University Business School and she is author of the book the Data Driven Science of Predicting and Changing Human Behavior. There's a link to her book and to her TED Talk on psychological targeting in the show notes for this episode. Thank you, Sandra.

[Sandra Matz]

Thanks so much, Mike. It's been a pleasure.

[June Parker]

We're so done with New Year, new you. This year it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want and you know what, we love that for you. Someone else will too.

[Sandra Matz]

Be more you this year and find them on Bumble.

[June Parker]

Build a routine with Ollie that supports your wellness needs, like getting your daily vitamins and minerals with Ollie's multigummies or keeping your mood upbeat with all the vitamin D and hello happy. Give your gut health some support with probiotics and wake up feeling refreshed after after taking Ollie Sleep do wellness on your terms. Find Ollie at a Walmart or Target near you [e-mail] these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Mike Carruthers]

Are you a curious person? Are you interested in what other people believe and what they have to say? Being curious is probably a good trait to have for a lot of reasons. That's according to my guest, Scott Shigioka. He has turned curiosity into a calling. He's a leading expert on curiosity and has taught courses on the topic at the University of Texas at Austin. Recently he took a 45,000 mile trip around the US for over a year, just so he could be curious about people different from him from all walks of life. Scott is author of a book called How Curiosity Can Transform youm Life and Change the World. Hey, Scott. Hello. Thanks for being here.

[Scott Shigioka]

Hi. Thanks so much. Great to be on.

[Mike Carruthers]

So I think I know what curiosity is, but I'm curious how you define curiosity.

[Scott Shigioka]

So, curiosity is the desire to know. And I think often people think about curiosity in an intellectual frame. You know, I want to. I'm curious about the world around me. So I read books, I listen to podcasts like yours, I watch news programs or documentaries, and that's one aspect of curiosity. But a lot of what I focus on in my work is how do we bring this curiosity not just in the mind, but down into the heart as well.

[Mike Carruthers]

And we should do this because why? What are the benefits of being curious?

[Scott Shigioka]

Well, there's, you know, curiosity strengthens our relationships to others. And I think most of us, I'm sure you included, and anyone listening on this conversation wants to strengthen their relationships with their partners or children, parents. When we have a stronger relationship, there's more care in the workplace. Obviously, we have better collaboration. We have a lot of benefits for our own physical health that come from stronger relationships, including longevity, living longer, reducing stress, increasing our ability to have fortitude around the things that we're struggling with in our lives, which is something that I think we all face.

[Mike Carruthers]

You said that curiosity improves relationships, but I'd like to hear how that works. How do you know that? How do we know that curiosity improves relationships?

[Scott Shigioka]

I mean, I think any of us can think about our own personal relationships and remember a time when maybe someone wasn't being curious towards us. The opposite of curiosity is incuriosity. And maybe they're trying to. To tell us their own viewpoint versus understanding our own. Maybe you're trying to share a story, but they keep inserting their own story rather than asking questions or really listening to what we're saying. And oftentimes what happens is when someone is directing that in curiosity towards us and we don't feel seen, we don't feel heard, we don't feel acknowledged, we don't feel like they're taking the time to understand us, that really affects negatively the way that we feel about them. And research actually backs us that in curiosity can drive negative emotions towards others, towards the people that we're in contact with. And on the opposite side, when we are curious, which means we're asking questions, we're listening, you know, we're acknowledging the person that's in front of us really seeing them. You know, something I like to say is that people who are seen stay and there. There's research to back that up as well. You know, in both cases, whether you're, you know, really close to someone, let's say a partner. Where research has been done around curiosity is within partnerships. Those partners where they feel that their partners are curious towards them, listens to them, they feel seen in the relationship, it is more likely that they're going to be happier. But even with those who we aren't as close with, you know, strangers that we meet in a. In a research setting, we found that there, there's an increase in the ways that we feel positively towards people who express curiosity towards us. So when we haven't met a person ever before, but they start asking us questions and they, you know, seem to be genuinely interested in who we are, we feel positively about them compared to those who are not expressing curiosity towards them. So that's what I mean. And I think it's best to think about personal examples in your own life. Think about the people who do express curiosity towards you, who really seem genuinely interested in your life. You're often going to have warmer feelings towards them, feel more cared for by them, and probably want to sustain those kinds of relationships.

[Mike Carruthers]

It seems that sometimes, especially in relationships with people that we know and we feel comfortable with that conversations are not couched in curiosity as much as they're couched in anger. And curiosity seems like it might be a better kinder way to do it, but that's not what we do.

[Scott Shigioka]

Yeah, I think we're much more reactive rather than curious. And there was recent research that that is basically called when in doubt, shout. And the idea behind that research is that oftentimes those who are the loudest, let's say in situations where we're talking about social issues or, you know, issues, even in the workplace, those with the least knowledge about it can often be the ones who are speaking the most. And I think if you talk to any good leader, let's say in the workplace, what you'll hear from them is, you know, you need to be a good listener. You need to really understand the problems that you're working on, the people that you're working with, et cetera. And that's really driven by curiosity. But oftentimes, I think we so badly want to be heard, whether that's in the workplace, in this, you know, social or political environments we're in, and what, what happens is our desire to want to be heard and share Our own perspectives and our own viewpoints can often make other people feel unseen. Like I just mentioned, it's often an expression of incuriosity. And so people say, well, if you know everything, if you're going to be so arrogant about your perspect of, like, why do I even need to share? Or maybe I'm going to be reactive as well, and I'm going to meet your arrogance with my own arrogance. And it's not a productive way to have conversations, have a dialogue. So one of the things that I often talk about is how do we use curiosity in the context of division and polarization that we're experiencing, not just in our country, but all around the world. And I actually brought this curiosity on the road for 12 months. I identify as progressive, and I've lived for most of my life in the adult life in the San Francisco Bay Area. I'm Asian American. I, you know, have all these different qualities to me. And the other side of that is I hadn't been curious or really understood the perspectives of other people in my country. I hadn't really been to the South. I hadn't really, you know, gone to, you know, Trump country. I had all these visions and versions of what that looked like to me based on, you know, social media and what other people told me. But I wanted to, you know, walk the talk of what I was sharing around curiosity. So I spent 12 months going across the country. I went to Trump rallies, I met with religious leaders, and I met. I lived in the South. I. I met people who are very different from my day to day. And it was beautiful to actually see that. I could also connect and find commonalities, you know, with people who are very different from me. And I can move from a state of reactivity where we're not getting further at all in understanding one another's views and life stories to a place of curiosity. And the last thing I'll say here is that curiosity inspires curiosity in others, oftentimes. Not all the time, but oftentimes. And so what I mean by that is when you are getting curious about someone else and their viewpoints and their perspectives and their life stories, oftentimes they will be inspired to give that curiosity back to you. And, you know, researchers sometimes call this, like the give and take spiral. It's when you're in a conversation and you're asking a bunch of questions, they're asking questions to you back, and it's like a great, you know, meeting a great date, whatever context you want to, you know, put that in and so I wasn't just learning about the people that I met on my road trip, but they were learning a lot about me and my life story as well.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, isn't that a great story? Because wouldn't it be great if everybody was able to do what you did and get out of your, you know, take the blinders off and go look at the rest of the world with that kind of open attitude and curious attitude that, that most of us don't. We never think to do that.

[Scott Shigioka]

And a lot of people say, scott, I can't hop in my Toyota prius and take 12 months off of work and go on the trip that you went through. And I often tell them, you don't have to. We're often in families, let's say, where there's very different perspectives and viewpoints and politics and identities. We're often in communities with neighbors who have very different life stories and very different life experiences than us. But oftentimes, not only can we get reactive, but we can also close ourselves off from others. And what I'm trying to express in the work that, you know, I'm doing and my book Seek, is really about how do we move away from reactivity or closing ourselves off to this curiosity, which actually feels really good. Right? You know, curiosity releases dopamine, which is, you know, often called the happy hormone. You know, it's, it's, it's something that drives and incentivizes behaviors that are really important for us and our survival and our life, our livelihoods. Curiosity is no different. So, you know, I, I, I, I, I don't just say, do something that feels bad because it's good for you. You know, like there's actually a pleasurable feeling that happens when you're curious. It's often like the gym, right? You know, for many of us, the biggest weight in the gym is the front door. But once you get into the gym and you start working out, by the end, you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so glad I did that for myself. I feel so good. And the same is true for curiosity.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, I've always thought, and I learned this, you know, at a fairly early age, that curiosity is really a gift you can give, because when people are curious about you, it makes you feel good, it makes you feel heard, it makes you feel as if what you have to say someone finds important. And so often we think we know it all, and we dismiss what other people think and say. And yet, just to turn that around and just tell me what you say, why do you think that? I mean, asking those kinds of curious questions makes people feel good.

[Scott Shigioka]

Is there a story or a personal story in your life where someone made you feel that way because they were curious about you? Mike, I have a couple of people.

[Mike Carruthers]

Who have been in my life who I always. I just always have had this. I love talking to them because when the conversation is over, I feel so much better about myself. I feel smarter. I feel like I'm really, you know, because of their curiosity about me, and wanting to hear what I have to say makes me feel good.

[Scott Shigioka]

Absolutely. Someone that sees the value in the people that they're talking to, you know, and I'm not coming from a place of judgment or assumptions about who you are based on their own biases, but saying, you know, there's a lot that I could learn from you. There's, you know, I've come in with an open mind and open heart, a curiosity, and I want to ask you questions and have a great conversation with you. And I think, yeah, that you're right, that many of the folks that I think about who give me that same curiosity are the people that I love and cherish the most in life.

[Mike Carruthers]

I guess it's because if people ask me my thoughts, they must care what I think. Maybe what I think is worth saying. There's this thing that goes on in your head that, you know, I must have something to say, and I don't know what it is, but it's just. It feels good and it fosters a.

[Scott Shigioka]

Better conversation, and that conversation fosters a better connection. I will say sometimes, though, I recently talked about this in the New York Times article about a term that I coined called predatory curiosity. And so what I mean by predatory curiosity is it looks a lot like curiosity, right? Someone's asking you questions, they seem to be genuinely interested and what you have to say. But then all of a sudden, the conversation quickly turns and there's almost like a gotcha moment, and they say something like, I knew you were going to say that, or that's totally wrong. You're wrong with the facts. You walked right into my trap. That's not actually curiosity, even though it looks like it. Predatory curiosity is when we have an agenda or some kind of ulterior motives underneath our expiration or underneath the questions that we're asking. And in order for it to be true curiosity, it needs to be truly genuine. Truly. I do not know what I'm about to encounter in this conversation. You know, just like what you said. I said, hey, is there any. Anything that you're looking for from this conversation. And you answered in the most curious way. You said no for the podcast. I'm just going to see where it ends up. You know, I'm totally open to how we have this conversation together. And I think that's such a great example of true curiosity. So often we are looking to take our conversations or to take our relationship to our particular destination, and there's many things that might be driving that, but that is not actually curiosity. We have to be much more open to the unknown and to the uncertainty of what might unfold in this conversation or in this relationship for it to be that way.

[Mike Carruthers]

What's a good way to start being curious? And that pays dividends like, oh, well, this is good. This is better.

[Scott Shigioka]

Yeah, well, in my book, I talk about the dive motto, which is to detach, intend, value, and embrace. And I can describe that in a little bit, but then I'll share some tangible practices that are helpful. So the D is detach, which means to let go of what I call our ABCs, our assumptions, biases, and certainty. And what I mean by that is you can write down the assumptions that you have about another person. Just write them down before you meet them for family gathering or before you have a conversation with them in the workplace, Wherever you're coming into a conversation with someone, write down your assumptions about them. You might find that a lot of those are not backed by facts or things that they've told you, but they're just stories that you really invented in your head. So that's an example of how we might detach and let go from our assumptions, biases, and certainty. There's I, which is intend, which is how do we set the mindset and the setting for curiosity? So what I mean by that is if you need to have a curious conversation with your teenagers or with your boss, it's better to prepare for it, to actually be intentional about it. Where are you actually going to have this conversation? Conversation? What kinds of questions are you going to be asking? And something that professional athletes do is this idea of mental rehearsal. So they actually think about the routine that they're going to do on the floor if they're a gymnast, or they think about the plays that they're going to do, you know, on the field, or they think about, you know, shooting a free throw at the free throw line. And we can do the same thing. We can do mental rehearsal with our conversations, really walking through all the different moments of a conversation that might be really challenging or hard or hostile or Scary for us. And what the research has found is that mental rehearsal in this way improves our performance. It makes us better on the field, but also in the conversation that we're going to have in both settings. So intend is really about how do we just be more mindful, more intentional, and really practice our curiosity before we need to step into the arena with it. V is value. And this is really simple. It's really about how do we see the dignity of every person we're getting curious with. It doesn't matter their politics, their identities, their experiences that they've had. You have to see and honor their humanity and their dignity or you will revert to an incuriosity. You'll say, oh, well, you're a part of this group, you vote in this way. You did this, you know, in, you know, in the last elections. So I know everything I need to know about you. But the truth is, is you don't. That's. You don't know everything about a person based on who they voted for or what association they're a part of. You know very little about them actually. And it, you know, we are more than just our single identities. We are very nuanced people with many dimensions to who we are. And the final thing is embrace, which is how do we welcome the hard times in our lives? I think what I often have found in my work in traveling all across the country and world is that that people are very curious in low stakes moments. But once things get really challenging and really hard, it's much easier to turn off curiosity. And so embrace is just a reminder that actually if you're going through a tough time with your journey around health, or a tough time in your relationship with your partner, or a tough time in your own mental health journey, all of these are just examples that I think many people share that curiosity can actually be a really important companion in all of those pursuits. So it's detach, intend, value, embrace. That's sort of the key components of curiosity.

[Mike Carruthers]

And to put those into practice in a practical way, you start by doing what you just wake up and kind of approach the world differently. Or, I mean, what's the how to here?

[Scott Shigioka]

Yeah, so a couple examples. So one is to remember that curiosity is a spectrum from shallow to deep. And so, you know, shallow curiosity is about getting bits of information about who a person is, oh, what's your name? What do you do for work, you know, where do you live? But we have to take our curiosity deeper to the deep end. What happens with deep curiosity is that we're able to dive beneath the surface, see a person and all other stories and all other nuances. And thus the quality of our questions change. So instead of asking a question like, oh, what's your name? Oh, Mike. Oh, I'm Scott, you might ask a deeper question, a more powerful question, like, what is the story of your name? I love that question of what is the story of your name? Because it helps you to understand who named you. Who named this person that you're talking to? Maybe some cultural dimensions or some family legacy connections. I think that's really interesting. Instead of asking, what do you do for work work, you can ask a deeper and more powerful question, like, what is really exciting you right now? What are you getting curious about in life right now? Instead of asking, where do you live? You might ask, what does home mean to you? What does home look like for you? And you start to just get a deeper understanding for who this person is instead of just data points. And so asking deeper and more powerful questions is one tactical way to do that. A second thing to think about is a really simple phrase that you can have in your tool belt, which is, tell me more. And this often happens even in my partnership. Right. He'll be telling me something about, oh, he's going to this film set to do scouting. And I'm like, oh, my God, that's great, babe. I love that for you. Instead, when I say, tell me more. Oh, my gosh, tell me more about the set. Tell me more about who you're doing that with. Tell me more about how you're feeling about that opportunity. Our conversation and our connection becomes so much stronger. So what I mean by tell me more here is to be aware of the times when you're in conversation with anyone in your life, and you tend to respond with like, oh, that's really cool. I'm so happy for you.

[Sandra Matz]

You.

[Scott Shigioka]

Rather than diving deeper into the conversation and learning more and trying to explore all the parts of this person's interests and their lives.

[Mike Carruthers]

And lastly, you've already given some examples specifically about this, but I think a lot of us hate that. Shallow. How you doing? What's going on? Hey, what's up? So what else can you say? I mean, how else do you get over that, that past, that facade into something much more real?

[Scott Shigioka]

Yeah, I think a lot of us really do dislike that. And at the same time, I think a lot of us are so afraid to go deeper. I think we are afraid of, oh, what if we're making someone feel a certain way that they don't Want to feel right now? Or what if we're asking something that's too personal? And so one of the practices in Seek is to develop up a powerful questions list. So every time you hear a question that you're like, ooh, I like that question. That's so interesting. It was provocative for me. Write it down, Put it in your notes app, in your iPhone, write it in your journal, have a draft in your email, whatever you want to do to catalog it. And as you start to do this and create a list of powerful questions, you start to realize that the quality of your questions that you're asking in conversations, whether it's at a party or whether it's in a workplace, starts to improve drastically. I've noticed this. You know, I'm like, wow. Like, I'm never at that point anymore where I'm, like, running out of questions to ask, or I'm like, oh, gosh, this is like, I don't know what to say here because I have this huge repository of incredible questions. So some of the questions on my list are, you know, you know, who is bringing you a lot of joy right now in your life? Or what is bringing you a lot of joy in your life right now? What's really exciting you right now in life? What's firing you up right now in life? You know, what's a belief that you've had that you felt strongly about that you changed your mind on, and why did that happen?

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I like those questions a lot more than, hey, how are you? What's going on? What kind of work do you do? Seems like curiosity can be powerful. If you're willing to maybe dive a little deeper than that. I've been talking with Scott Shigioka. His book is called How Curiosity Can Transform youm Life and Change the World. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Hey, Scott, thank you for coming on. This was great.

[Scott Shigioka]

Awesome. Thanks so much, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

If you're one of those people who uses the snooze alarm occasionally, that's probably no big deal. But if you hit the snooze alarm five or six times in the morning, you're doing yourself a disservice. It seems the sleep you get in those short intervals is not very good sleep. So you might as well just get up and get the day going. By the way, your snooze alarm is most likely nine minutes long, not ten. Nine. Why? Years ago, mechanical clock engineers had to configure the clock ears, and they had two to set the snooze for either a little more than nine minutes or a little more than 10 minutes. Clockmakers decided on the nine minute gear, believing that 10 minutes would be too long and allow someone to fall into a deep sleep. Of course, clock manufacturers today have the option to set snooze buttons for any length of time, but most of them stick with the nine minute custom and that is something you should know. As always, your continued help in spreading the word about something you should know really helps us grow our podcast with that word of mouth marketing and we really appreciate it. So please share this podcast with people you know. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something you should Know.

[June Parker]

Hi, I'm Sarah Gabrielli and I've traveled to every single lesbian bar in the country for my podcast Cruising.

[Scott Shigioka]

Dancing was a no, no, no. Women dancing.

[Mike Carruthers]

That would be something that yes, the cops would grab.

[Scott Shigioka]

Before there were no black owned female gay bars, we needed a place of our lawn.

[Mike Carruthers]

In those days we went to the.

[Scott Shigioka]

Bars to socialize because there was no other way.

[Mike Carruthers]

When you went to Brady's Bar, you knew you were safe.

[June Parker]

This is Cruising, a documentary podcast about queer spaces, history and culture. Each episode of Cruising features a different space and tells the stories of the humans that run it and the human that call it home. You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Season one and two are available now, so be sure to binge them before season three, which will go beyond the bars to queer bookstores, farms, peace encampments and more. Premiering February 4th.

[Sandra Matz]

Do you love Disney? Do you love top 10 lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast Disney Countdown. I'm Megan the magical Millennial.

[June Parker]

And I'm the Dapper Danielle.

[Sandra Matz]

On every episode of our fun and family friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all Disney the parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover on our show.

[June Parker]

We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney.

[Sandra Matz]

Themed games and fun facts you didn't know you needed.

[Scott Shigioka]

I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle what insect song is typically higher pitched in hotter temperatures and lower pitched in cooler temperatures.

[Sandra Matz]

You got this.

[Scott Shigioka]

No, I didn't believe that about a wish coming true. Well, I didn't either. Of course. I'm just Cicada.

[Mike Carruthers]

I'm crying.

[Sandra Matz]

You win that one. So if you're looking for a healthy.

[June Parker]

Dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown. Wherever you get your podcasts.