Podcast Summary: Something You Should Know

Episode: How You Can Access Hidden Markets & How to Be A Super Conversationalist
Date: October 30, 2025
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guests: Judd Kessler (Wharton School, author of Lucky by Design), Charles Duhigg (Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, author of How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection)

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Mike Carruthers explores two distinct but practical concepts:

1. Hidden markets—the unseen systems that determine access to scarce resources, events, and opportunities, with Judd Kessler walking through how you can improve your odds at navigating them;
2. Super-conversationalists—with Charles Duhigg, discovering what really makes great conversations, why they matter, and actionable strategies for becoming more effective in connecting with others.

Part 1: Hidden Markets—Getting More of What You Want

Guest: Judd Kessler
Timestamps: [06:02]–[29:04]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Are Hidden Markets?

• Traditional markets allocate goods by price, but “hidden markets” are arenas where money isn’t the main deciding factor ([06:09]):

  "In hidden markets, the price is not going to help us get what we want... that's what makes the market hidden." — Judd Kessler [06:09]

• Examples:

  • Restaurant reservations
  • Concert/theater tickets
  • Trendy product releases
  • Labor and dating markets
  • College admissions and organ transplants

Common Mechanisms in Hidden Markets ([06:52])

• Often operate on systems like first come, first served, lotteries, and personal connections.
• Recognizing these unwritten rules is the first step to success:

  "The first thing is you have to know that the race exists." — Judd Kessler [08:32]

Strategies for Success

• Settle for Silver:
  • Go for options with less competition (e.g., earlier dinner slots or second-choice colleges via early decision) to increase chances:

    "In a lot of hidden markets, you have to act as if something you are not as excited about is actually your first choice." — Judd Kessler [08:32]

• Plan and Prepare:
  • Know when and how “races” start (e.g., when restaurants open reservation slots).

Scarcity, Demand, and Social Influence ([12:47])

• Sellers and organizers often intentionally create scarcity to boost demand, e.g., through product “drops,” flash sales, lotteries.

  "They need something good, but they may kind of be clever about how much access they give... others will see the line around the block and want to join it." — Judd Kessler [15:04]

Who Wins in Hidden Markets?

• Persistence and effort are rewarded.

• Not everyone is meant to “play”—you have to evaluate if the effort is worth it for you ([18:57]):

  "You need to figure out what it is that you actually want. Right? If you're going to try to succeed in a market..." — Judd Kessler

Systems Aren’t Perfect ([20:37])

• Contrary to belief, many hidden market rules develop “by accident,” and loopholes remain for the clever/persistent.

  "A lot of markets are created by historical accident... you can do better for yourself if you recognize that there are ways to improve your chances." — Judd Kessler

Real-World Examples:

• Steve Jobs received a liver transplant in Tennessee rather than California due to different wait times ([21:17]).
• Broadway ticket lotteries reward dedication—entering often increases your odds.

Personal Gatekeeping: The Hidden Market for Your Time & Attention ([27:17])

• Your time is a resource—you set the rules (who gets time with you, how you allocate attention, etc.).

Memorable Quotes

• On “Settling for Silver”:

  “It might be a place where if you apply early decision, you actually can get in. And that is going to be a smarter strategy in a market like that.” — Judd Kessler [11:40]

• On Celebrity Loopholes:

  “Maybe the advice is it’s a good idea to become a famous movie star.” — Judd Kessler [25:31]

  • Discusses how celebrity or acting important can sometimes open “doors” supposedly closed.

Part 2: How to Be a Super Conversationalist

Guest: Charles Duhigg
Timestamps: [30:01]–[50:58]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Types of Conversations ([31:15])

• Conversations fall into three “buckets”:
  1. Practical: solving problems, making plans
  2. Emotional: sharing feelings, wanting empathy
  3. Social: relating identities and roles
• Mismatch between these leads to miscommunication:

  “In order to really connect... we need to be having the same kind of conversation at the same time. Within psychology, this is actually known as the matching principle.” — Charles Duhigg [31:51]

Example—The Marital Complaint Loop ([32:58])

• Charles described venting to his wife about work; she responded with practical advice, but he wanted empathy.

  “I would say things like, why aren’t you outraged on my behalf? You know, you should be taking my side.” — Charles Duhigg [33:26]

• Solution: “Do you want me to help you solve this problem or do you just need to vent?” ([34:12])

Deep Questions: The Superpower Move ([35:54])

• “Deep questions” are those that explore values, beliefs, or experiences, rather than facts.

  "A deep question is something that asks me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences." — Charles Duhigg [36:07]

• Examples:
  • Instead of “What hospital do you work at?” try “Did you always want to be a doctor?”
  • Instead of “Where do you live?” ask “What do you like about living there?”

Why Deep Questions Work

• They foster trust and “neural entrainment”—your brainwaves literally synchronize during a meaningful conversation ([38:24]).

  “When I ask a deep question and you tell me something meaningful... we start to like each other more, we start to trust each other more.” — Charles Duhigg [39:17]

The Invitation vs. Mandate in Question-Asking ([40:34])

• Good deep questions invite, rather than demand, deeper sharing.

  "It's important when we create these questions to pose them as invitations rather than mandates." — Charles Duhigg [41:06]

Why Small Talk Persists ([41:43])

• Shallow questions persist mainly as icebreakers. The real magic happens when the chat deepens:

  "Nobody really likes shallow questions... But when someone asks a real question, a deep question... it's much easier for me to continue the conversation." — Charles Duhigg [41:43]

The “Mess” of Great Conversations ([45:08])

• Truly great conversations are messy, full of interruptions and side journeys:

  “If I was to look at a transcript of [a great conversation], I guarantee you it would look like a mess… Those are what great conversations look like. They look like a mess, but in the moment... you feel connected.” — Charles Duhigg [45:08]

The Key Features of Great Conversationalists

• Ask deep, invitational questions.
• Match conversation types.
• Reveal something of themselves.
• Support and affirm, rather than problem-solve, when appropriate.

Navigating Difficult Conversations ([48:02])

• State your intentions, and ask what the other person’s are.
• Prove you're listening through “looping for understanding”:
  1. Ask a deep question
  2. Repeat what you heard in your own words
  3. Check for correctness ([49:12])

Memorable Quotes

• On Conversation Matching:

  “Successful communication requires having the same kind of conversation at the same moment.” — Charles Duhigg [31:51]

• On Listening:

  “What’s really important, particularly in a difficult conversation, is that I prove to you that I’m listening…” — Charles Duhigg [49:12]

Notable Quotes & Highlights

• Judd Kessler [08:32]:

  "In a lot of hidden markets, you have to act as if something that you are not as excited about is actually your first choice."

• Charles Duhigg [34:28]:

  "Do you want me to help you solve this problem or do you just need to vent and get this off your chest?"

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |------------------------------------------------------------|--------------------| | Hooters & "BFOQ" (intro) | 00:35–03:26 | | Hidden markets basics (with Judd Kessler) | 06:02–15:55 | | Scarcity, desire, “settle for silver” strategy | 08:32–12:47 | | Scarcity and marketing (fad products, exclusivity) | 12:47–15:04 | | Does market design reward gaming the system? | 20:37–23:15 | | The hidden market for your attention/time | 27:17–28:17 | | Super conversationalists (with Charles Duhigg) | 30:01–50:58 | | Three types of conversations (practical, emotional, social)| 31:15–32:52 | | Deep questions and “matching principle” | 35:54–38:24 | | Looping for understanding (technique in difficult talks) | 48:18–50:32 |

Bottom Line—Actionable Takeaways

• For Hidden Markets:

  • Know the real rules; identify if you’re in a “race,” lottery, or network-driven game.
  • Be strategic: sometimes aiming for your “silver” choice yields better odds.
  • Decide if it’s worth your effort—your time/attention is a valuable commodity.

• For Becoming a Super Conversationalist:

  • Pay attention to what kind of conversation is happening—match the other person’s style.
  • Get in the habit of asking deep, inviting questions.
  • Practice “looping” to show you’re listening, especially in hard discussions.
  • Remember, the aim is connection, not perfection.

For further reading, check out Judd Kessler’s Lucky by Design and Charles Duhigg’s How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection (links in the show notes).