Eve Harold (6:16)

Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.

Mike Carruthers (6:19)

So I remember always being very interested in robots as a kid. There's something about interacting with a machine in a way that treats them like a human almost.

Eve Harold (6:34)

And that's because we're wired, we're hardwired to be social creatures and we have unconscious responses to anything that looks and sounds and moves and seems almost human or almost alive. On top of that, we also have a strong tendency to anthropomorphize anything that we interact with. So, yeah, I mean, it's kind of intrinsic to who we are, but it.

Mike Carruthers (7:02)

Does, you know, it does seem weird to some extent to want to talk to a machine as if it were a person. I mean, there are plenty of people to talk to. And yet we're fascinated by this idea of treating some machines like humans. It is fascinating.

Eve Harold (7:21)

Fascinating and sometimes scary. As you're probably aware of the uncanny valley effect where people become very uncomfortable when robots enter a certain zone. And that is characterized by hyper realism with glitches and, you know, problems that crop up so that something seems almost real, almost human, without quite passing that last hurdle of perfection. And then the wires in our brains get crossed and it makes us. It's a disturbing feeling. It brings up images of things like zombies and undead and other things that have been immortalized in the media. But it's an uncomfortable feeling and it can put us off from dealing with certain robots. In fact, studies have been done on this and roboticists are really trying hard to avoid the uncanny valley because they want their social robots to be a consumer item and they want them to be, you know, widely adopted. So somehow we have to get around that problem. We want them to be realistic and human, like up to a point. But if they're not absolutely 1000% perfect, then they disturb us. And it's just a strange psychological syndrome that's very common.

Mike Carruthers (8:49)

But it would seem that that's always going to be the case because no matter how much human like you make a robot, I still know you're a robot.

Eve Harold (9:00)

Well, let's hope you do.

Mike Carruthers (9:02)

Let's hope you do.

Eve Harold (9:04)

It's really easy, alarmingly easy, for robots to convince us that they have an inner life and that they're actually conscious and alive and Multiple studies have been done. It sounds so counterproductive. It's counterintuitive. It doesn't seem that, you know, we like to think of ourselves as rational beings who are always, you know, have a firm grip on what's real and what's not real. But studies have been done with people of all ages, of all walks of life, both genders, interacting with robots and finding that these robots are able to push their emotional buttons. And they get, and there is actual confusion in the mind about whether they're alive or dead, you know, whether they are conscious or not conscious, whether they're a living, you know, being or just a machine. These things get mixed up in our minds alarmingly easily.

Mike Carruthers (10:05)

Give me an example or two of a robot that I would think, might think was human like, or that has a life, because I can't think of one. So would you tell me one?

Eve Harold (10:16)

There are a couple of robots that I've seen that are, that really are quite eerie. One of them is called Sophia. It's made by handsome robots. Sophia is a hyper realistic robot and she has like all these facial expressions that her face is very animated all the time and it's over the top. So to me it's creepy. But there are people who just absolutely are crazy about Sophia. In fact, she, she became the first robot to receive citizenship. She's a citizen of Saudi Arabia now.

Mike Carruthers (10:56)

And Sophia exists as an experiment or does Sophia actually perform something useful?

Eve Harold (11:03)

She's an experiment. She's a prototype at this point. So she shows up at like tech conventions and shows where people are able to get a sense when Hanson Robotics wants to roll out, you know, their latest product. They love to use Sophia because she's captivating. I mean, you can't, not when she's talking, you cannot not look at her. So, you know, they're very compelling. And I think most people find them, like I said, much more compelling than we would like to think that we would fall, that we would fall for ourselves. And these are educated people. These are people from all walks of life. There's something about the combination of movement, language, eye contact, facial expression that very easily creates an illusion, a powerful illusion of life to us. And our brains have a hard time distinguishing between that and reality.

Mike Carruthers (12:12)

So are there actually robots, I mean, real robots, not just machines that do a task, but robots that I would think of as a robot? Or is it all still very experimental?

Eve Harold (12:26)

We actually have robots on the market that are pretty abled for things like teaching and childcare, elder care and companionship. They can do Rudimentary things around the house. Like, you know, if you have an older person, they can fetch them their medicine with a glass of water, put the glass of water back where it belongs, things like that. We have robots that are pretty abled, I think, more so than what most people realize is going on out there. What needs to happen is that they need. The price needs to come down for them to be widely implemented. But I think that's coming too. I think that's on the way. You know, people are slowly getting used to Alexa to all kinds of smart devices. I think they're going to be embraced.

Mike Carruthers (13:20)

Well, I think of Alexa kind of like a robot in the sense that, you know, you tell it to do whatever it can do in its power. I mean, it can't. It can't vacuum your rug, but, you know, it can play a song or it can set a timer or whatever. And I find, you know, sometimes I thank Alexa and I thought, well, why am I thanking. It's just a box. But people do all the time.

Eve Harold (13:48)

Oh, they do all the time. People even think they're roombas. They tell them, you did a good job, Roomba. You know, it's just part of human psychology. You know, there are certain things that. That we are just simply hardwired for. You know, anthropomorphism is one, you know. You know, being fooled by something that. Let me put it this way. If you have a robot and it says to you, I love you, you're beautiful, the same parts of your brain light up when you hear those words from a robot, as they would if your significant other said them. So our brains, our nervous system, it's all something that plays into this, and which is a little bit scary because it's a little bit nefarious when you think about it. You know, we're kind of having our hard wiring used against us by commercial forces. That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that they'll be extremely easy for us to operate because it comes so natural to us.

Mike Carruthers (15:02)

Well, that certainly brings up some interesting possibilities I want to ask you about. I'm speaking with Eve Harold. She is author of a book, Robots and the People who Love holding onto Our Humanity in an Age of Social Robots.

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Mike Carruthers (16:16)

So, Eve, if we humans are so easily fooled into thinking that robots have emotions and robots have intelligence, you could certainly imagine one day going into a store and buying a robot husband or wife that has all you want in a partner and none of what you don't want.

Eve Harold (16:36)

This is what is being worked on right now. These social robots go way beyond all that. They learn the way a child learns, so they learn in association with you. They reflect back to you, your tastes, your preferences. They remember everything you tell them. They get to know you better than you know yourself, perhaps. And it's a little overwhelming to think about it, but we can get, we can be served by robots in a. In a very consistent manner. They'll cater to us in a way that no human partner ever could, which is where the danger lies, because I'm concerned about people replacing the primary relationships in their lives, even their friends, you know, with robots, because robots could become the path of least resistance.

Mike Carruthers (17:31)

What happens when you get a robot that has all the good and none of the bad of a mate? It kind of devalues human relationships. Why should I hang out with you when you do things that annoy me, when I can hang out with a robot that does everything right?

Eve Harold (17:50)

That's why I write a lot about, you know, the dividing line and maintaining a really firm grip on what's real and what's not real. Because ultimately, robot relationships are not going to give you. They're not going to make you grow, they're not going to truly make you flourish as a human being. In fact, studies have shown that when people use them too much, their real social skills atrophy. So they actually become less connected, more alienated, and potentially more lonely. So this is something we really need to pay attention to as a cultural phenomenon.

Mike Carruthers (18:31)

You know, as I think about it, when you deal with a robot, not that I do that very often, I don't think, but there is this kind of default that. That you think the robot is really smart, that probably smarter than you are, that there's this assumption you make that you're dealing with a superior thinker.

Eve Harold (18:57)

Yeah, you are absolutely right, Michael. This has been demonstrated in multiple studies. People tend to overestimate the intelligence of robots and underestimate their own intelligence. And by that I mean when you put them in a group of people with one robot in the group and they ask a simple question, and people go around the room and give their answer to the question, they're mostly correct because it's a simple question. And then the robot gives an incorrect answer. And then 80% of those people change their answer to match the answer of the robot. Because we really overestimate. We put a very high value on a certain type of intelligence in this day and age. And, you know, it's computational intelligence that really impresses us and that. That robots really excel in, but they don't have emotional intelligence, they don't have creative intelligence, they don't have, you know, moral intelligence, and the whole gamut of the different types of intelligence that human beings have. So, yes, we do overestimate them, and people are influenced by them. And I think this is eventually going to percolate through society to the point where the culture changes somewhat.

Mike Carruthers (20:24)

What is the. This would be difficult to explain, I guess, but what is the technology or what is it that has allowed Sophia to seem human? Because when you look back at all the robots that most of us know from, you know, TV and movies and whatnot, they look like robots, they talk like robots. You know, they're robots. But what is it. How is it that Sophia and other types of robots like that can be so human? Like.

Eve Harold (20:57)

Well, you know, new materials have been invented in recent years. You know, there's a material called flubber, and it's a flexible material that's used in the. In. In like Sophia's face, for example, that's got, you know, it's. It's electrically, you know, controlled, and it's got, you know, wiring that in certain ways simulates, you know, human musculature. And so the eyes blink, the eyes dart back and forth, the mouth moves, the eyebrows move. The materials are just becoming so much more lifelike, you know, and. And there's all kinds of materials now that just in bodies of robots that make them flexible and soft as opposed to hard metal. Now you know, don't get me wrong, there's plenty of, you know, plastic and metal robots out there, and they're on the market now. One of them is called Pepper. Pepper can teach, entertain, and watch over children. It can run programs that are designed to help children with autism. It can do all kinds of different kinds of therapy. It can do cognitive behavioral therapy for people who have, you know, kind of the crab grass of mental illnesses, you know, anxiety and depression, things like that. So. So you put these programs together with flexible, movable, animated materials, and it really creates an illusion.

Mike Carruthers (22:35)

But it does seem pretty benign and rather useful that we've got robots that can help care for the elderly or watch children or teach autistic kids. Is there a concern there or is that the positive and then the negative comes with that?

Eve Harold (22:54)

Yeah, it's kind of the latter thing, you know. Yes, they do amazing things. And really, I, you know, I'm amazed. I mean, you can. Disabled people will be, you know, the big winners here. Elderly people, children. But the problem comes in with the fact that they're connected to the Internet. You know, they. Scientists at MIT not so long ago created a robot that they, they claim became psychotic because of material that it found on the Dark Web. So, you know, while your child is being taught, you know, by a robotic tutor. That tutor, yes. It's getting all kinds of great programs and stuff, and it's, you know, amassing a lot of knowledge, and it has a lot of uses. It's also subject to whatever the latest, you know, crazy, you know, mental spasm is out there on the Internet that it's. That it's just absorbing because these robots. And it's the same with generative AI, as you know, generative AI is trained on information from the Internet. And not all of that information is benign. Not all of it is true. These bots and these robots don't have the capacity to discern whether something is true or untrue. So. And they don't truly understand human language. They seem like they do, they sound like they do, but they're just coming up with patterns and words that fit together. You know, they don't understand, you know, what they're. What they're actually saying to you. But. But they're. They're programmed to make it sound realistic and natural.

Mike Carruthers (24:44)

Are there any other examples you can think of of robots being used that you know are real robots?

Eve Harold (24:52)

There are some robots in Japan that are doing things like working in a. In museums, and they're working as museum guides, and they're highly Lifelike and realistic. They're equipped with all kinds of interesting knowledge about the objects in the museum. And they're very knowledgeable. There are things like that on the horizon there. Actually, it's happening in some parts of the world, not here quite yet, but, you know, there are uses of these robots that I think are really intriguing and fun and engaging, you know, and offer some valuable services. I also am really looking forward to caregiving robots that get very, very abled. And, and this is, this is close. This is some close, you know, technology that's coming down the pike soon. You know, robots that can lift a person out of the bed and put them in a wheelchair and, you know, and back again, that can, you know, bathe people, that can feed them, that can do this, that can assess, that can address some of the shortages we have of caregivers. You know, we have a terrible shortage of caregivers. You know, I just hope we can, you know, be conscious and aware as we go forward on this and try to try to circumvent some of the problems that are predictable and be able to respond to the ones that are not predictable that suddenly emerge.

Mike Carruthers (26:23)

Well, all of what you're talking about about robots is a little unsettling. And, and you know, it's not, and it's not so far off in the future. I mean, it's starting to unfold now and so we won't have long to see how this plays out. Eve Harold has been my guest. She is an award winning science writer and consultant. She's author of a book called Robots and the People who Love holding onto Our Humanity in an Age of Social Robots. There's a link to that book in the show notes. Appreciate you coming on today. Thanks Eve.

Eve Harold (26:55)

Thanks so much, Michael. Good to talk to you.

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Mike Carruthers (28:02)

Confidence, it's a commodity we certainly admire in those people who seem to have it. And it's something a lot of us wish we could have more of. So what is confidence? Are you born with it? Do you acquire it? Why do some people seem to be brimming over with confidence while others feel such a lack of it? Here to talk about confidence in a whole new way is Viv Grossgup. She is a writer, comedian, and an executive coach. And she is author of a book called Happy High Status how to effortlessly be Confident. Hi, Viv. Welcome to something you should know.

Viv Grossgup (28:40)

Thrilled to be here. It's lovely to be on your show. Thank you for having me.

Mike Carruthers (28:45)

So I think people think about confidence a lot because we've all been in situations where we have been confident, you know, maybe with your kids or in a group where you feel like you know what you're talking about and you have a lot of confidence. And yet we've all been in situations where the confidence just gets sucked right out of us.

Viv Grossgup (29:07)

I think it's the most fundamental human fear to be afraid of the judgment of others. You know, it goes way back to the times when we were living in caves and afraid for our lives if we were separated from the tribe. So there's always this really strong instinct in us to fit in with people, to do the right thing, to use usefully what we call social editor. That's the part of us that kicks in anytime between the age of 3 and 7 years old where we learn that we need to behave a certain way, say certain things, be kind, not just do whatever we feel like doing. You know, when children are very young, they can often say things that are rude or hurtful without meaning to, just because they have no filter. But then as we get older and we have this social editor that kicks in, we learn that we have to be cautious around other people. And sometimes we can overdevelop that, and it really affects our confidence because then we're thinking too much about what other people think of us and not enough about what we can bring to the world. So it's about having that very measured confidence that is strong enough in the social editor to show that you care about people but not so strong that you're always fearing other people's judgment.

Mike Carruthers (30:31)

Well, it's interesting what you said about, you know, we overthink this whole idea of what other people are thinking about us when in fact people aren't thinking about us at all. They're thinking about them, they're thinking about what I think of them. They're not thinking about what a jerk or a fraud I am.

Viv Grossgup (30:50)

Yeah, totally. I mean, this is the really ironic thing, is that when we talk about this, we all recognize it, we all know it, and everybody would agree with what you just said, but at the same time, it's very counterintuitive. We sort of contradict ourselves in that we know this to be true, that we're not thinking about other people all of the time, we're often worried about ourselves, and yet we believe at the same time that everyone is thinking about us. It's always, I think, the most useful thing, and it's something that I learned through moving from being a journalist to a stand up comedian, is that in the moments when you think everyone's thinking about you, and of course you need to think that when you're on stage, it's the most useful thing to turn it back around and think, what can I do for them? How are they feeling? How can I look after them? And you do realize the more you put yourself out there, especially something really extreme like stand up, that other people, they just don't actually really care about you at all in a good way, you know, so if you have a bad gig, everybody's going to have forgotten about it by the time the next act comes on. And so you can forget about it the next day and get on and try again. The same way, if you have an amazing thing happen to you, you know, if you really nail a presentation or you give a great pitch or you have a great night at Stand up, it's not going to change the world. You know, we're always operating inside as if there are these really high stakes for everything. And actually most of the time the stakes are much lower than we think. So we can afford to take the pressure off ourselves.

Mike Carruthers (32:24)

Still though, there always are gonna be those moments where, you know, you walk into a room and the confidence, if you had any, gets sucked out just instantly and you've kinda got that first aid situation. What do you do in that case where you really feel overwhelmed?

Viv Grossgup (32:42)

The most obvious advice is breathing. And of the many, many actors and performers and comedians that I've interviewed or been alongside, that is the obvious that they will talk about many performers and I'm talking about people who are household names, they do breathing exercises as a matter of routine. I was always really surprised to see this. When I started out in Stand Up, I would be working alongside people who were hugely successful way, way ahead of me in the game and they would take themselves off to one side and be doing some kind of ritual, whether it was pacing or a meditation app. There are loads really useful meditation apps that you can Download and do two 3 minute exercises or you can just think to yourself. As you take a breath in, you count to four, and as you breathe out, you count to six. Four counts in, six counts out, you can have a longer out breath and it will make you feel much more relaxed.

Mike Carruthers (33:50)

Well, I've certainly found that to be true that when you're in a situation where you're nervous and your confidence has been sucked out of you, that you start thinking all these negative thoughts and then you start thinking about the fact that you're thinking about them and it's this downward spiral. And if you can just distract yourself and break that spiral, that cycle, it seems to help almost no matter what you do. As long as it's not that anything.

Viv Grossgup (34:19)

That grounds you in your body and makes you more aware of your body than of your mind is the most useful thing. Because so often when we're nervous and we're afraid and we're under stress, we become completely obsessed with the racing thoughts in our minds and they seem like the most important thing. And we can, if we can really push our feet into the floor. Even holding on to something can be really helpful. Whether it's an object or just feel it sounds really weird, but feeling a cushion or anything that grounds you reminds of your body and using some breathing techniques alongside that. It sounds so obvious, but I think so few people do it, which is a shame because if you just take two minutes out of your day to do this breathing exercise, it just brings you back to the present moment.

Mike Carruthers (35:09)

And it's so useful in many situations. I find that even if you're not feeling especially confident, it starts to come back after a while. It's always the first few seconds and you know, I used to do stand up as well and it's, you know, those first few seconds on stage are always the, you know, you're getting your bearings, you're kind of seeing where everybody is and what they look like. And that's like the toughest, if there's any advice here of getting through that as effortlessly as possible so that the confidence does start to kick in.

Viv Grossgup (35:46)

Yeah, it's really interesting. I hear that idea from a lot of people and I've experienced that myself. I also hear the opposite from people, that some people, people find they start really strong and then suddenly five minutes in, the nerves start up and they think, oh, what am I doing here? Oh, I can't remember what I've just said. So this can work in a lot of different ways for different people. I think what's really useful is to have certain moments of what I call signposting. So signposting could be anything from a very strong start to a very strong finish. And then in the middle you're going to allow yourself a bit more leeway. But for examp, if you know you're going to be really nervous at the beginning and it takes you a while to warm up, then make sure that you are word perfect for the first two, three sentences that you're going to say. Whatever it is that you're doing. If you're introducing somebody or giving a speech, make sure that that is word perfect and non negotiable and the same for your ending. Always know where you're going to finish up, what your last few words are going to be.

Mike Carruthers (36:54)

I think we've all walked into a room and seen somebody who's exuding confidence in. But you know, when I think about it, I don't know what it is exactly that makes me think that's a confident person. I see it, but I'm not sure what I'm seeing. What do you think?

Viv Grossgup (37:11)

I think we believe we can identify confidence. And there's a lot of really interesting psychological and academic research about this that is extremely inconclusive. And really there is no consensus as to what confidence really looks like. If you think about it, the way that I've come to think about it is to think that confidence is like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. And personally I find that really liberating to remember how subjective this is. And I also take the lesson from comedy that comedy is completely subjective. You know, what one person finds funny, another person finds completely unfunny. But that is actually liberating because it means you can make it up for yourself. Accept that you perhaps you're not going to be for everybody, but release yourself from the judgment of having everybody love you and everyone think you're confident by just being who you are. And the right people will be attracted to your confidence. And the wrong people, well, they didn't really matter in the first place.

Mike Carruthers (38:18)

Yeah, well, that's an interesting take on it. I have to think about that because there are some people that I look at, you know, like Barack Obama or George Clooney or they just. There's something about the way they carry themselves and maybe it's because I know a little something about them, and maybe they wouldn't if I didn't. But there's just. There are some people that walk into a room that have something that people seem attracted to. But you say it's more subjective than that. But yeah, maybe.

Viv Grossgup (38:49)

Well, you chose two perfect examples of incredibly confident, attractive, charismatic individuals who are the absolute hallmark of confidence and what I would call happy, high status. But unbelievably. I know this is impossible to believe, but there are people who do not like George Clooney and there are people who do not like Barack Obama and who do not buy their version of confidence. Those people are in the minority, but that's still their view. So it's always inspiring for me to think that there is no one who can be for everyone. There is no one whose confidence reads to everyone, and therefore it's okay to be in your own energy. And I think those two men in particular are attractive and confident to 99.9% of the population because they are very comfortable in their own energy.

Mike Carruthers (39:42)

But haven't you ever known anybody? Because I can think of a couple of people who. I didn't particularly like them, but I admired their confidence, that they believed so much in themselves that they were able to carry that off. Not my cup of tea, but I could admire the confidence and say, yeah, that's good for you.

Viv Grossgup (40:03)

Yeah. I think there are a lot of examples of people in politics for whom that is the case. You can always see a politician who does not have the same views as you, who you might disagree with completely, but who you can respect because they have a confident way of speaking. They put across their points. Well, they have authority, they have gravitas. They're worth listening to. Those people are incredibly valuable even if you disagree with them, even if you in a verte commas, dislike them, because they help you to understand what you think about the world, how you feel. And if we can have more people around us who are confident in their views, who have great authority, but we don't necessarily agree with them on everything, it can help us to be more confident in articulating our views which are different to theirs. So I completely agree with you that we can admire people's confidence without necessarily wanting to be exactly like them or relating to them necessarily. I think one of the great hallmarks of true confidence is being able to speak to people who disagree with you and still be heard.

Mike Carruthers (41:17)

Well, you just mentioned authority, gravitas. And I know people who lack confidence will often say, I wish I had more of that. I see that in other people, and I wish I had more of that. Are those things you can get, or are those side effects of something else that are benefits because you have it, but. Or can you just add that to your repertoire? And if so, how do you do that?

Viv Grossgup (41:41)

Those things are built in in certain scenarios, and for certain people, they have those things by virtue of the position that they occupy in society. There's a lot of work around status and entitlement that shows us certain people are more likely to be thought of in that way than others. So of course certain people have a bit of a bounce in this regard. But I do believe anybody can get a flavor of those things and they can hone them in their own way without trying to be something that they're not. For example, the pace and speed and tone of your voice really dictate so much about how people regard you and how they think of you and how much they want to listen to you. The more you can keep your voice on an even tone to make sure that you're not talking at the end of the sentence, to make sure that it doesn't sound as if everything you're saying is a suggestion. To keep the voice on an even tone, to really show when you finish speaking, you can slow down to show that this is the end of what you have to say. To use pauses to take your time, sometimes to soften your voice so that people have to lean in a little bit to listen to you, to really take your time to direct people's attention to you. And those are not things that you need to necessarily do in a way that is bombastic or super confident or, you know, Beyonce levels of glitter emanating from your every pore. Anybody can do these things. I'm thinking in particular of a speaker like Greta Thunberg, you know, the environmental campaigner. She has a very soft, slow, gentle, introverted, vulnerable way of speaking that's very unusual and I don't think would have existed 30 or 40 years ago in a public speaker. And yet she cuts through.

Mike Carruthers (43:44)

I want Beyonce level glitter emanating from my pores. I would love that.

Viv Grossgup (43:50)

Well, it sounds like it emanates from your voice. You know, your voice is a really great example of gravitas and taking your time and waiting for people to come to you. There's something very powerful in that. It's something we all could do with A lot more is not racing, just being gentle, letting the points land, giving your ideas room to breathe.

Mike Carruthers (44:13)

Talk about status, the importance of status in this whole conversation of confidence, status.

Viv Grossgup (44:21)

Or status as we call it. It's both. The same thing is really about how you move through the world. It's not to be mistaken with social status. So social status is your business card, what kind of car you drive, what your title is at work, how much money you earn, what your position is, all of those trappings. That is social status. When I talk about happy high status, or I talk about status in the. In the area of performance or just being around people, I'm talking about how you look at people, how you talk to them, how you listen to them, the space that you make for them. And these are not things that really have anything to do with where you stand in society or how entitled you are or how much power you have. They're all to do with the energy that you bring into a room or into a conversation. So the more status you can give to others by listening to them, by making them feel heard, by making them feel seen, the more you will, you know, conversely, raise your own status. So there are many ways to be in a situation that don't have to be governed by these external ideas of sociable status that we have.

Mike Carruthers (45:46)

What else, when you talk to people, what else about confidence are people concerned about or confused about or wish they did better or knew more?

Viv Grossgup (45:56)

What I think people are very scared of the visible signs of the opposite of confidence. They're very scared of having a shaky voice, having shaky hands, sweating, flutter, blushing, anything that they think people can see visibly. These, the things that absolutely terrify people. And some people, once they've had even a slight hint of that happening, they will completely avoid doing anything ever again. And it sort of breaks my heart when I hear about these things. Increasingly, I'm seeing people overcome these things by allowing themselves to be how they are, whatever that looks like in front of others. And that I think is amazing. You know, you see it a lot on social media of speakers who are not necessarily very confident, they're not necessarily very charismatic. They're absolutely not the sort of people who would have gone to drama school and they're getting up there and they're doing it and they're asking people to meet them where they are. And so the more we can see, I'm always encouraging bosses, you know, no matter what level of manager or boss they are, they need to do this in front of their staff. If you go red, if you shake, if you stutter a little bit, if you stumble, who, you know, whatever you do that makes you feel a bit embarrassed, do it in front of people. It's incredibly inspiring for people to see that when you speak in front of people, when you could even be when you're at a party or when you go into any kind of encounter with other people, that you're not perfect, that you have flaws, but you're going to get out there and do it anyway. And I've heard from so many people in different walks of life that they've seen someone like this in their industry or in their area who isn't particularly brilliant at doing this and doesn't look particularly complicated confident in a textbook way, but they've got up there and they've done it anyway. And it then inspires others to think, oh, actually, that person just comes across as real and natural and authentic. And it doesn't matter if they've gone totally red in the face or they've stumbled over their words, they've been able to say what they came here to say anyway, and they've said it in a way that is totally natural. So stopping, waiting to be perfect, that's really the key to all of this.

Mike Carruthers (48:31)

Well, it's an interesting way to look at confidence and a more accessible way, I think, for a lot of people, because people think that to be confident, there's this gold standard of confidence that you should strive for. And your approach is more work with what you've got, be more authentic, and that will be your confidence. I've been talking with Viv Grossgup. She's a writer, comedian, executive coach, and author of the book Happy High how to Effortlessly Be Confident. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Viv.

Viv Grossgup (49:06)

Thanks, Mike. It's been great talking to you.

Mike Carruthers (49:12)

When was the last time you had your eyes examined? It's actually a very interesting, important appointment to make and keep. Regardless of your vision, regular eye exams can detect some potentially hazardous health conditions that you're unaware of and that your primary care doctor might have missed. Looking into your eyes can tell a good eye doctor if you're at risk for some serious conditions like diabetes, high blood pressure, stroke and autoimmune diseases. And as you age, those risks tend to rise. The average adult should see an optometrist every two to three years, maybe more, if your health or family history warrants it. And that is something you should know. Hey, I don't want you to fall behind. Remember, we publish three episodes a week and they are delivered to followers, subscribers, whatever you want to call yourself. And they are delivered to you fresh out of the podcast oven every Monday, Thursday and Saturday I'm Mike, her brothers. I am the host of the show, but I'm not the only one working on it. Something you should Know is also produced by Jennifer Brennan, Jeffrey Havison, and the executive producer is Ken Williams. And that is something you should know.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (50:30)

Oh, the Regency era. You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place or the time when Jane Austen wrote her book books. But the Regency era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history. And on the Vulgar History podcast, we're going to be looking at the balls, the gowns and all the scandal of the Regency era. Vulgar History is a women's history podcast and our Regency era series will be focusing on the most rebellious women of this time. That includes Jane Austen herself, who is maybe more radical than you might have thought. We'll also be talking about queer icons like Anne Lister, scientists like Mary Anning and Ada Lovelace, as well as other scandalous actresses, royal mistresses, rebellious princesses, and other lesser known figures who made history happen in England in the Regency era. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcasts.

Mike Carruthers (51:25)

If you like something you should know, you're probably a curious person who enjoys learning about the world. And if you're looking for more places to learn, you should know about a podcast from TED called How to Be a Better Human. The host, Chris Duffy was recently a guest here talking about why he loves laughter and how you can find more of it in your everyday life. On how to Be a Better Human, Chris interviews scientists, experts and TED speakers about fascinating practical topics from how your dog experiences the world to how to stop doomsday scrolling to how to find a deeper sense of belonging. You can find how to Be a Better Human wherever you listen to podcasts.