Hayden Finch (5:25)

Thank you so much, Mike. I'm delighted to be here.

Mike Carothers (5:27)

So where does confidence come from? Are you born with it and then some people lose it, or must you acquire it through life experience? Or how do you become confident?

Hayden Finch (5:38)

I believe we're all born with confidence and it's up to us over the course of our life to claim that confidence by putting ourselves outside of the box that we are supposed to be in over the course of our life. So I don't think that playing by anyone else's rules or necessarily being comfortable all the time is what makes you confident. I think it oftentimes happens from pushing yourself into the places that make you a little uncomfortable, that you learn how much you're capable of, and it allows you to grow and really grow into the confidence, confidence that I believe we all have within us.

Mike Carothers (6:12)

Do you know, I don't know if you've done the research or know the research, but how people feel generally about their confidence. Do they wish they had more? Do they think they're fine? Just what's the general sense?

Hayden Finch (6:26)

I was on book tour for my first book, and the word confidence was something that I heard almost every time I had a question and answer session. So anytime I would get up and say, you know, at the end of a speech, does anyone have any questions? One of the first questions I would get was always, how are you so confident? Or where did you become so confident? Or most often, do you have imposter syndrome? And if so, how did you get rid of it? Or how can I get rid of it? So to answer your question, I think most people don't have it, or if they did have it when Covid came along, I think a lot of people lost it. So this is the time that we all have the opportunity to reclaim it and to claim what we might have had once in our lives that we didn't feel like we had anymore.

Mike Carothers (7:09)

And so if you have confidence, what is it? What does it feel like to be a confident person?

Hayden Finch (7:15)

I think confidence feels like you are entirely sure of who you are. So if you walk into a room, you're not thinking to yourself, oh, gosh, is everyone thinking that I'm not supposed to be here? Or if someone makes a comment about you, that you overhear something that isn't necessarily kind, it doesn't affect you because you realize that that's about them, not about you. It's being comfortable in your own skin and confident in the person that you are at that mom, regardless of what other people around you think, or frankly.

Mike Carothers (7:43)

What other things happen around you, I love that definition. That's perfect. But here's the thing. All of those things that you just described, of hearing a comment about you, of walking into a room and thinking this, and that describes probably 90% of every teenager in high school, they all feel that way. But so. But there's always those kids in high school or junior high school who seem to have it all together now. Either they're faking or they have something the other people don't.

Hayden Finch (8:18)

Yeah, I think that there's truth to that. I think a little bit of it's faking, but I think it probably is that they were tested early on and realized that they were strong and kept following that thread. Because the interesting thing about confidence I found in my own life is when you become confident, it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy because that confidence propels you to try things and not to care so much about the result, but really understand that it's more about the journey. So a lot of times I believe people who've been through really difficult things often have more confidence than people who don't because they've already seen that they can stand up again, they can keep going, and as a result of that, it makes them stronger. You know, if you think about someone who's a, an ultra athlete or somebody who has exceeded all expectations of what their career should be, they're probably a pretty confident person because they've been knocked down a lot to get to that point. You know, athletes will stand on top of the Olympic gold medal podium holding that gold medal. But the end of the day, how many defeats went into that to get them there? Many. Right. But they've overcome it and they've learned from it. So I would think that there are certainly some people who are born with the, you know, Teflon skin. Nobody can knock them down. But I also believe that there are a lot of people who, through small actions over the course of their life, have built up confidence and can take that confidence with them, with them, wherever they go.

Mike Carothers (9:39)

It sounds as if what you're saying is that confidence comes as the result of what you do throughout your life. It's your life experience that will boost your confidence. But how do you deliberately try to get it? Rather than just wait for things to happen, how do you go out and try to deliberately boost your confidence?

Hayden Finch (10:01)

I think it really comes down to pushing yourself outside of the things that make you feel comfortable. So let's say that you're a person. And I often say this because I teach a lot of people how to do public speaking, that if you're a person who's scared of public speaking and you feel like you have no confidence when you get on stage with a microphone, what is the thing that you don't want to do? Get on stage with a microphone? So what you should do is get up every single time you have the opportunity to stand up in front of a group of two people in front of a group of 10 people, you should, if you have the opportunity, take a class to make yourself try and feel that failure or feel that greatness. And either side just keep practicing. Because, again, that's where confidence comes from. You don't get confident when you're at the top of the mountain. You get confident learning how to get there. And once you get there, because you're up there, you've realized that you've dealt with all of these issues to get yourself to the top. And all of that learning has allowed you to be confident and to continue being confident throughout your life. So whatever it is that you're not confident about, if you don't feel it at all, start pushing yourself to try something that you don't think you can do. Because, honestly, I think a lot of times we'll surprise ourselves. We have no idea what we're capable of until we've pushed ourselves outside of that comfort zone.

Mike Carothers (11:18)

So it sounds like what you're saying is that to gain confidence, you really have to force yourself to do the things that every fiber in your being is telling you you don't want to do. So where do you get the motivation? I mean, how do you do that in small steps?

Hayden Finch (11:37)

It's all about the micro steps when you're trying to do something. So let's go back to public speaking, since that was something I talked about earlier in the interview. When it comes to public speaking, if your ultimate goal is to be able to stand in front of a room of people confidently and speak, then take the opportunities that are smaller, that don't seem quite as large and overwhelming, if there is an opportunity. I'm a parent of three, so there are a lot of parent teacher moments over the course of the year. What I would say to someone who's trying to be a better public speaker is stand up and ask a question. You have that opportunity. It happens every single month. There's a parent teacher conference. Stand up once a month and ask a question. Feel that adrenaline come in. Understand what nerves feel like, because once you feel it, you start to recognize it. And then it stops holding that fear over you, that grip over you. And, you know, in terms of asking the girl out, I think sometimes you just have to have a leap of faith. But, you know, and other things, there's always the opportunity to practice when the lift or the setting is low so that you have the opportunity to get better the more you do it.

Mike Carothers (12:41)

There does seem to be a pretty strong connection between confidence and competence, that if you're good at Something. If you have the skills to do something well, you probably feel pretty confident at doing it. And the only way to get confident at doing it is to do it.

Hayden Finch (13:02)

Definitely. I've become a charity auctioneer over the course of my career. But when I tried out, I was young, I was not very good and I had all of these sort of disastrous nights on stage where I would get up there and something would go terribly awry and I would leave and cry a lot because that was always sort of my coping mechanism for not being competent but wanting to be more competent and also to gain confidence on stage. And what I learned every single time was that when something happened on stage that went terribly wrong, it prepared me for the next time that it happened again. Because over the course of a two decade career where you're on stage over 60, 70, 80 nights a year, things do go wrong pretty much every single time. So, you know, we talk a lot about mic microphones, right? That's an important part of your interview process. You want to make sure that it's great. I've been on stage nine times over the course of my career where people have either forgotten to get a microphone or the microphone just didn't work. And so I've had to learn what to do when I get on stage and that happens. And now if there's no microphone, no problem. I know exactly what to do because it's happened to me so many times. But the first time it happened to me, I was not competent and it was a disaster. I cried for the entire evening. Afterwards, after I left, I sort of crawled out of there with nothing but shame. But the bottom line is I didn't die. I survived. And I went back and did it again and again and again. And that's where that competency piece, as you said, is such a huge part of confidence. Because you've learned how to do something, you've spent the time learning how to do it, and it gives you the confidence to try more and to take more on.

Mike Carothers (14:39)

Our topic on the table today is confidence, and I'm speaking with Lydia Fannette. She's author of a book called Claim youm Confidence.

Ann (14:49)

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Mike Carothers (16:41)

So, Lydia, you talk about how action leads to action. And I've always found that one of the ways to never get anywhere is to never do anything and to just sit and think about it. And. And there is something very powerful about doing almost anything in the direction of what you're trying to do because it starts the momentum. It makes you feel like you're doing something which makes you do more things, it seems to me.

Hayden Finch (17:09)

Yes, I completely agree with that on every level. And I think that anytime you have a business, you know, for people out there who own their own business, I give this amazing example in my book of a friend of mine during COVID who was an artist and was so paralyzed with fear about money during COVID as many people were, you know, she was thinking to herself, you know, my art is not in these galleries anymore. What am I going to do? She was still creating art by the, you know, picture after picture after picture. I think it was her outlet during COVID But what she'd lost was that confidence in being able to sell it. And from the outside looking in, nothing had changed for her. In fact, people were at home for the first time in their lives where they were just staring at walls. So art was something Everybody wanted. It was just a question of her reminding people that she was out there. We had a long conversation one day and I used that same phrase, action leads to action. And I was like, kate, you have to go out there and get those clients. It's not their responsibility to come to you. You have to remind them what you're doing. You have to get your art out there in front of them. And it was amazing to watch that spark, because once it started, it was like a wildfire. I mean, she was hosting sales online and she was going back to clients, and all of a sudden she had all of these new clients and these new commissions. And for me, that was a perfect example of how action leads to action. You can't, as you said, sit there and wait for something to happen to you. You make everything happen that you want to happen in your life.

Mike Carothers (18:38)

There's always that fear, though, of looking foolish, of, you know, getting rejected. Whatever you fear is going to happen, if you pick up the phone and call somebody or do something, you're. You're going to fail, and that's going to make you feel even worse. So maybe you're better off just not doing anything. And hopefully, you know, magic knocks at the door.

Hayden Finch (18:58)

Yeah. Or here's another way to think of it. My sister's an entrepreneur, and she said this to me once, which I absolutely love. Out of every 10 asks, nine will be a no guaranteed as an entrepreneur. So you just have to keep asking for that one and always start looking for that one out of 10. And it was funny because she said it to me years ago, and it really stuck when I was doing the case studies in my book, because I asked women, very powerful, successful women, to share their thoughts. And the first person I asked was this very well known anchor on cbs. I'd been seated next to her at a lunch in New York and had given her my information, and we'd had a great conversation. So I was like, I'm sure she'll do it if I ask. And, you know, I sat there. I mean, I can't even tell you. I probably sat there for 10 minutes just looking at the button, waiting to hit send. And her email came back pretty quickly with, unfortunately, you know, I can't do this. Contractually, it doesn't work for me. But I had a list of 59 other people behind her. And the amazing thing was, after that first no, none of them really stung. Does that make sense? After you've taken that leap and the no has been said or the thing you fear the most, has happened. It's actually a lot easier on the other side. So what I would say to anybody who is scared to take that leap or is fearful or feels like someone's going to think that they're silly, or who cares? At the end of the day, if you're living the life you want and the life that you want to create for yourself, it's going to happen. It's going to be part of it. It happens to all of us. But be confident that that does not define you. That's just part of your journey. So embrace it. And remember, nine no's, one yes. And then if two people say yes out of ten, you're incredibly excited.

Mike Carothers (20:39)

Talk about the imposter syndrome, because I think that is that. I think that's a big problem for a lot of people. I think more people than care to admit it.

Hayden Finch (20:49)

Absolutely. And going back to what I said, it's something that I hear at almost every Q A. It doesn't matter. Man, woman, age. It has no boundaries, really. So imposter syndrome is that feeling you get when you walk into a room and you think you shouldn't be there because everyone around you is much smarter or better or has a better opinion than you do. And sometimes you might be right, but you're not helping yourself by thinking that about yourself. So what I say in my chapter on imposter syndrome is because I'm an auctioneer, I use acronyms that have gavel related moments. So I say to slam it down. And that can be summed up in four letters. S, L, A, M, Slam. So the first, stop counting yourself out before you've even had the chance to get in the room. I'm sure you've heard this, Mike. I've heard this from so many accomplished friends over the course of my life. When someone puts them up for something, an award or a promotion, they're the first one to back out of it. No, no, no, I could never do that. I. I don't even really know how. No, I. There's a reason someone's put your name forward. Step into that role, you will learn it. Step into that moment, you will take it. Don't be the person who counts yourself out before you even have a chance to get in the room. The L is for listen. Listen to what someone is saying, not what you think they're saying. So the next time you find yourself going into a negative spiral because someone has said something that you perceive as negative, instead of putting a tail on the end of it that's negative, turn it into a positive spin. So in my own experience, I had three children in four years. So I was on maternity leaves three out of four years. And as you can imagine, it becomes a very uncomfortable thing because you just assume that everyone around you is thinking that you're not good at your job anymore, you're not doing it. Plus, you have this incredible child, children at home, where you're trying to balance everything. And it's a lot of work, especially those very early years. And I remember going back to work and someone said to me as I was walking through the office, hey, it's so good to see you back here again. And I remember thinking, oh, my God, they must be thinking that they haven't seen me. And that's why they said that. And then I just went into this negative spiral about how I'd had three children so quick. It was just the most ridiculous thing, because that's not what the person had said to me. They'd said it was nice to see me back in the office. And so I decided that day to make a change in terms of my mentality about when people said things to me, what I was going to take from them. But I refused to put myself into that negative spin anymore. It had taken way too much time and layered on too many layers of imposter syndrome. For me, the A is to accept that there are no gold stars in life as an adult. So I don't know how many people you've interfaced with over the course of your life, Mike, but I oversaw a lot of different teens at work. And one thing that I noticed amongst some of the people who worked for me was that they were always looking for a gold star from someone else. They wanted someone to applaud them for work done or something that was just part of their daily job. And what I said to them all the time is, at some point in your life, especially as an adult, you have to accept that no one gives you a gold star. You have to give yourself the gold star. You are old enough to know if what you've done is good, if your work quality is good, if, you know, in my case, I got off stage and an auction went well. I know I don't need anyone else to tell me that. And again, going back to that confidence piece, what happens is if you are looking for other people's praise and they don't give it to you, that takes away from your confidence, too. So accept that there are no gold stars for doing the things that you want to do in your life and really take ownership of your life and make sure that people understand that you give yourself the gold star and that's enough. And the final the M is make your point and don't back down. A lot of times people will start to backpedal as soon as they're challenged, even if they're in the right. If you know what you're talking about and you have the confidence to back it up, make your point and don't back down. Don't forget that your opinion matters just as much as anyone else in the room does, and never forget that. So the next time you feel like you have imposter syndrome creeping in, I suggest you slam it down.

Mike Carothers (25:06)

Do you think most people, if they are confident, are confident in all areas of life because it's just a mindset, or they're confident in the thing they're confident in, but the rest of their life could be falling apart?

Hayden Finch (25:23)

I think that you can be confident in certain areas of your life and not confident in others. I mean, I've certainly seen that with people who are confident in their work life, but maybe not so much in their personal life. But again, I think at some point it all starts to blend together. Maybe not when you're 18 years old, but as you move through your life into your late 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s and beyond. I do believe that all of those things do inform one another. Like, you can't be confident at work unless you are somewhat confident personally, because you can't walk into a room and own a room unless you're feeling confident on the inside. And that's what you're going to need to do to succeed in work. So I do believe that you can have confidence that ebbs and flows in certain areas. And I do think that that's something that happens with confidence in general. It goes and comes, but as long as you are propelling yourself forward to try new things and to push yourself out of your comfort zone, you will be able to maintain confidence in every.

Mike Carothers (26:23)

Facet of your life, which is exactly what people would love to do, would love to have, is that level of confidence. I've been speaking with Lydia Fannette, and she is author of a book called Claim youm Confidence. If you'd like to check that book out, there is a link to it in the show notes. Thanks so much, Lydia. Appreciate your time.

Hayden Finch (26:43)

I appreciate your time, Mike. Thank you so much. This was such an incredible interview. You were such a wonderful interviewer.

Mike Carothers (26:49)

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Hayden Finch (26:56)

After an initial dosing phase of 16.

Mike Carothers (26:58)

Weeks, about 4 in 10 people taking.

Hayden Finch (27:00)

EBGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin, and most of those people maintained skin that's still more clear.

Mike Carothers (27:06)

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Lydia Fannette (27:19)

Atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled.

Mike Carothers (27:21)

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Lydia Fannette (27:39)

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Mike Carothers (27:42)

Ask your doctor about ebglis and visit ebglis. Or call 1-800-LilyRx or 1-800-545-5979.

Hayden Finch (27:49)

I was never really a runner. The way I see running is a gift, especially when you have stage four cancer. I'm Ann. I'm running the Boston Marathon presented by bank of America. I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute to give people like me a chance to thrive in life, even with cancer. Join bank of America in helping Anne's cause. Give if you can@b of a.com supportann.

Mike Carothers (28:13)

What would you like the power to do?

Hayden Finch (28:15)

References to charitable organizations is not an.

Lydia Fannette (28:16)

Endorsement by bank of America Corporation. Copyright 2025.

Mike Carothers (28:22)

When you first went to school and put off doing your homework, you probably heard that you should not procrastinate. Why put off till tomorrow what you can do today? And yet it seems procrastination is really kind of a human tendency. We almost all do it sometimes, and some of us more than others. So what is it about procrastination? What causes it? Is it a sign of laziness? Or is it something else entirely? Well, the perfect person to address those questions is Hayden Finch. She is a licensed clinical psychologist, behavior change expert. She's also author of a book called the Psychology of Procrastination. Hi Hayden, thank you for coming on. Something you should know.

Lydia Fannette (29:07)

Thank you for Having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Mike Carothers (29:09)

So is it your sense from doing the research that procrastination is just human nature? It's what people do in general?

Lydia Fannette (29:19)

Probably. We know that humans are inclined towards procrastination, and we have some evidence from researching other animals that they also are inclined towards procrastination. So there is something sort of like biologically driven about procrastination.

Mike Carothers (29:35)

So I guess a good place to start is to explain what you mean by the psychology of procrastination. I just thought it was something people do, something I do. But I didn't know there was a whole psychology around it. So can you explain that by that.

Lydia Fannette (29:51)

We'Re talking about all of the things that influence that as a behavior. So we think of procrastination as a behavior, or in this case, the absence of behavior. And when we're talking about psychology, we're not only talking about behavior, but we're also talking about the thoughts and feelings and even life experiences that influence that behavior. So all of that is part of the psychology of procrastination.

Mike Carothers (30:15)

So when I procrastinate, and I don't know that I'm a horrible procrastinator, but I have certainly, certainly been known to put things off. And I tell myself why I do that. The reason I do that is because, you know, whatever. I got plenty of time. I can do it later. I'd rather do this thing now than that thing. Are all those really the reason, or is there often something else going on.

Lydia Fannette (30:42)

That'S definitely part of it, Right? Like the language that we use to talk to ourselves about our behavior. It matters. It influences the behavior that ultimately we perform. And also, it's not the whole story. You're right on that. That those are excuses or reasons that we give to justify a particular action or inaction. But it's not the complete story, for sure.

Mike Carothers (31:05)

What's the complete story? Or what are other pieces of the story?

Lydia Fannette (31:09)

Right. Well, there's. There's the emotional side of it, which my perspective is that there's this emotional side to it that we neglect. We think of, again, procrastination as a behavior, but we neglect this emotional side. So say you want to, you know, just fold your laundry. You've had it done. It's washed and dried, but it's not folded. And it's been something you've been putting off. There might be reasons for that. There might be legitimate reasons. There are other things that you've wanted to work on, other things you need to do, other things. You want to do. But the other part of that story is the just like, ugh, I don't wanna like that feeling. That like, ugh, I'd rather not. That feeling is a huge part of what ultimately motivates procrastination.

Mike Carothers (31:46)

One of the things I think procrastinators often say is they put things off because they like the pressure of the deadline. They like to have their back up against the wall because they claim that with that pressure they do better work. What do you say?

Lydia Fannette (32:05)

There is some truth to that, that a certain group of people does work better under pressure. But by and large, almost everyone who believes that to be true about themselves is wrong. If we test that out in a research lab, we find that people actually perform poorer. They make more mistakes, for example, when they are under pressure versus when they have adequate time to really put some thought into it. So that is a false assumption that a lot of us are making about our.

Mike Carothers (32:35)

Is procrastination not a problem if you think it's not a problem?

Lydia Fannette (32:43)

Well, it's sort of not a problem unless it is a problem. Right. And we might not be aware of the problems that it's causing, which is the trouble. Like, we have evidence that procrastination affects loneliness, it affects economic difficulties, it affects depression and anxiety. And it sometimes is difficult to draw a straight line from my procrastination to my financial difficulties. Sometimes it's easy to draw that straight line and sometimes it's harder. And so that's the difficulty here, is like, it can be difficult to know all of the problems that are caused by your procrastination. And also sometimes the problems caused by your procrastination don't actually impact you so much, but maybe it's impacting your co workers because you're always responding to emails at the last minute or the projects that you turn in aren't the highest quality and it doesn't really affect you all that much. But your coworkers or your boss cares more than you do.

Mike Carothers (33:37)

Do most procrastinators self identify as procrastinating? Do they say, yeah, I procrastinate and I'm proud of it, or whatever they want to say, but do they realize it in themselves or do they go, I don't know what you're talking about?

Lydia Fannette (33:50)

Yeah, one of the things that I've discovered in my career in the last few years is that even people who don't think of themselves as procrastinators, for example, I'm one of those. It's not something that I've personally ever really struggled with. I realized that even those people are procrastinating on something, and that's been a really interesting exercise for me professionally, is to see, oh, oh, me, right. Personally, I don't procrastinate on the typical things like work stuff or school stuff or even my chores, but I'm procrastinating on a whole lot of other things so that I can make sure that I get all of those things done in a timely manner. And when I look at procrastination through that lens, it seems like basically everybody I come into contact with is procrastinating somewhere in their lives to be able to make space for the other things that they're not procrastinating on.

Mike Carothers (34:37)

So one of the things that I think procrastinators, or people in general do, because you hear this thing like, you know, work expands to fill the time that if you give yourself plenty of time, it'll take that much time. But if you give yourself five minutes to fold the laundry instead of 25 minutes to fold the laundry, it'll get done in five minutes. And that that would be a good thing.

Lydia Fannette (35:03)

An interesting thing about procrastination is that people who procrastinate habitually tend to be pretty poor at estimating how much time a task will take, which is part of what influences procrastination. And that's related here, because if I think I can squeeze it into an hour, and that would be, like, the right amount of time to really do a good job, but to not waste too much time, I could be off on my. On my estimate. So I really have to start watching time in my life and getting pretty good at estimating what is the right amount of time to dedicate to a project.

Mike Carothers (35:35)

Are procrastinators. I don't know if you've ever looked at this. Are procrastinators typically people who are late and. Or are late people? Typically procrastinators.

Lydia Fannette (35:47)

I think the second might be truer than the first. People who struggle with punctuality tend to also struggle with timeliness in other parts of their lives. It's just a difficulty with. With perceiving time in general. But people who are procrastinators don't necessarily struggle with punctuality necessarily. Their procrastination may show up with other things in life.

Mike Carothers (36:10)

Because one of the things that seems to happen with people who are chronically late, that I've noticed, and I'm not typically one of them, I like to be on time. I Notice that people who are late don't learn from their lateness. And then they're on time the next time because they learned, oh, this is going to take longer than I thought. They're always late. They never get it. And I wonder, is that the same thing with procrastinators? Do they not learn? This would have been a lot easier if I had done this sooner. And so next time I will.

Lydia Fannette (36:44)

There is definitely something to that. You would think that if I do something and I get a less than ideal outcome, that I would learn from that experience and change my behavior the next time. And that is true in some areas of life. For a certain group of people, and especially people who are habitual procrastinators, that tends to not follow. And so for people who just kind of like, periodically procrastinate. Yes. Like, that is probably what keeps them in that periodically procrastinating group of people. The folks who struggle with this habitually probably aren't learning from that experience. And my hypothesis is because. Because they're actually learning something different. So rather than learning like, oh, like that was. That didn't turn out well, I should do that next time they're actually learning something different, like, oh, well, at least I didn't have to deal with that for a month in prepping for this project or this performance. At least I just had to deal with that for, you know, a week or something. And so there's some other message that they're learning or some sort of like, very strong emotional experience that's keeping that behavior pattern alive, even though it doesn't make good rational sense.

Mike Carothers (37:52)

It just seems that there are people. I guess I'm one of them. I certainly don't do things early necessarily. I'm not one of those people. I don't know. I imagine it's somewhat of a sliding scale that you're not either a procrastinator or you're not. It's just. It's where you fall on the scale. And I'm okay with it. I mean, it seems to work for me. But it's also a case where I don't really think about that there's any other way to do it. Even when I screw it up and I'm late or I don't do as good a job as I could have done. I don't think necessarily that there's a big lesson there.

Lydia Fannette (38:32)

Yeah. And that's probably because in your life you've figured out how to manage yourself and your time in a way to keep those catastrophic consequences from Being part of your life. Some people aren't able to manage the procrastination that well. And so they do end up with some pretty significant, even catastrophic consequences in front of them. So you're right. Like, it's a spectrum, you know, from people who really don't struggle with this at all to people who are struggling with it so much that they're filing for bankruptcy or they're losing their jobs or they're having other catastrophic consequences.

Mike Carothers (39:05)

Yeah, that would be a problem.

Lydia Fannette (39:07)

Yeah, right.

Mike Carothers (39:08)

Those would be big problems. So imagine that the advice for procrastinators is something more than knock it off, because that probably doesn't work too well. So what is it would be great if it did. Did. What is the advice besides knock it off?

Lydia Fannette (39:23)

Yeah, it's a great question. And my thesis is that it's less about time management and more about emotion management. So poor time management, to be clear, poor time management can certainly affect procrastination, and improving those skills can definitely be helpful. So these, those are things like planners and, you know, setting priorities for the day and having some goals and getting organized, all of that, that can certainly be helpful. But ultimately, overcoming procrastination requires that you address the deeper emotional stuff that's going on.

Mike Carothers (39:58)

And you do that how?

Lydia Fannette (40:00)

Well, for one, you have to identify it. So when you're looking at the kinds of things that you're procrastinating, you have to be honest with yourself about what's going on here. Why. Why is it so hard for me to get my documentation done at work? Oh, for one, like, I just don't wanna. Right. That I don't want a feeling. Documentation just isn't fun. And so I'm just putting that off. But two, I also feel kind of as shamed that a lot of documentation has stacked up. And that doesn't feel good. I don't. I don't feel good about the job that I've done. I also feel really overwhelmed by how much has stacked up. And I feel scared because I. Maybe you're a doctor, right? I don't get paid unless this documentation is submitted. And so I'm actually losing out on income. For me, my staff, it's hard to pay my overhead. And so they're all of those emotions. And unless you address that anxiety and the overwhelm and these other emotions that I mentioned, you're gonna have a really hard time sitting down and getting that documentation done. Because it's not as simple as just sitting down and doing it. It's like confronting the shame and it's confronting the anxiety, and it's confronting, like, the real mass of the problem that is piled up in front of you.

Mike Carothers (41:03)

Yeah, See, well, that's hard for me to understand because to me, it is about sitting down and doing it. The only way this is gonna get done is if you sit down and do it. And, yeah, okay, I get the shame and the frustration and all that other stuff, but. But at the end of the day, the only way it's going to get done is if you sit down and do it.

Lydia Fannette (41:21)

For sure, that's definitely going to be a key piece of it. Like, yes. Yes. The task is not going to be done unless you engage with it. What we want to do is make it so that you can engage with it. What a lot of us do when. When we're dealing with procrastination is we have the idea, like, oh, yeah, I need to sit down and go through the mail. Oh, yeah, I need to get my documents together for my taxes. We have that idea, and so we know that we need to do it. But what keeps us from getting from that idea to actually doing it is typically emotional. Something else comes up that we'd rather do. Something comes up that seems more important. We, like, something comes up emotionally that kind of takes us off course. And that's where we have to kind of put that under a microscope to figure out what happened between the thought I should get my tax documents together and then, like, the decision to not do it right now. And that's where a lot of good work happens.

Mike Carothers (42:11)

Well, there is this thing that happens. I think everybody can relate to this, where, you know, you're supposed to do something. You know, you're putting it off because you somehow have convinced yourself, to use your example, that folding the laundry is much more important. And that, in fact, that might actually be fun to do, even though it never is fun any other time. Or cleaning the closet needs to get done even though you haven't done it in seven years. That's the thing I never really understood is why is it that people do that?

Hayden Finch (42:47)

Yeah.

Lydia Fannette (42:47)

So we call this productive procrastination. Right. So I'm procrastinating with something else that also needs to get done is also important. It's just maybe not the highest priority right now or not really where I should be putting my time and energy. And that's a really interesting thing. So what happens is, you know, say. Say what I really need to be doing is getting my tax documents together, but instead what I end up doing is organizing my closet When I think about doing my tax documents, there's probably some sort of emotion that comes up in that, like, probably they're just like, ugh, that feels like a lot of work. Or I don't really want to do that. So some kind of emotion comes up in there. And then I make a decision, well, I'm going to do my tax documents anyways, even though I have that feeling. Or you know what, I'm going to go organize the closet right now. I'll come back to this later. And that decision point is really important because if I make the decision to, you know what, I'll come back to this later. I'll just go do the closet right now. That I just don't want. A feeling goes away and you feel this relief because that feeling disappears. And then even if that second behavior that I chose in this case, cleaning the closet, even if that's not particularly exciting or fun, even if it's just like a little bit better than doing the taxes, that might be enough for our brains to prefer that. Because it doesn't have to be fun or have to be really that much better. It just has to be like a tiny bit less bad than what we were starting with. Because that relief that you feel in choosing that other option is kind of what keeps this cycle going.

Mike Carothers (44:11)

My observation is that if it's a task that you're having trouble doing, probably the hardest part of doing any task is the starting. If you can just get started. And so there's that tip, and I've used this myself, is give yourself 10 minutes, 20 minutes to work on a task and give yourself permission to stop at that point. And often you may not stop at that point, but knowing you can stop makes it easier to start.

Lydia Fannette (44:42)

Yeah, that's a great tip. And it doesn't have to be 20 minutes. Right. If you feel like all you can stand of this task, because it's particularly aversive, is one minute or five minutes, then that's the place to start. But the reason that is helpful is because having a. A guaranteed time that the pain is going to end helps us persist through pain. Just like if you, you know, were to take a cold shower and, you know, I only have to be in here for three minutes, you can persist for that three minutes versus just having no idea when it's going to end. And this is. It's kind of playing on that same thing. Having an end to the pain helps us persist through it.

Mike Carothers (45:19)

Yeah, well, and also I find that when you do a project like that and you get all your documents done and ready and all the blanks are filled in. It feels really good. Like, wow, I got it done. But why can't people see that in the beginning that the end is actually pretty good? It's just, you got to get there. You got to run the race.

Lydia Fannette (45:42)

Yeah. It's one of those irrational things about human psychology. You would think that reminding yourself of how good this is going to feel at the back end would help us overcome that initial aversiveness. And in some cases, it can. And I do think that's a useful strategy to deliberately take the time to remind ourselves that it's going to feel good. Right. When you finish this workout, you're going to feel so good. That is a helpful strategy. And we ha. Like, ultimately engaging in the task requires that we push through the difficult starting part more so than just kind of relying on knowing that it's going to feel good at the end.

Mike Carothers (46:22)

It is the starting. Right. I mean, that. That, to me has always been the hardest part of anything, is to get started. Is that fair to say? Right.

Lydia Fannette (46:31)

And that's the emotional thing. Right. Once you can get started, then the emotions are going to kind of take a back seat. The emotions are there to try to keep you from getting started, and they're really effective at that for a lot of people. But once you can get past that, then the emotions will go to the side, and then it's a lot easier to continue engaging with it past that.

Mike Carothers (46:49)

I think generally people have a negative view of procrastination, that it's not a good thing, it's not a trait you really want to have, and that procrastination is a sign of laziness or lack of motivation maybe more than anything else.

Lydia Fannette (47:07)

One thing to keep in mind is, is that we can't rely on motivation as an antidote to procrastination. That is one of the things that keeps procrastination going is this belief that, oh, I'll do it when you know, when I'm motivated, or I'll do it when I feel like it, or I don't feel like it right now, so I'm just not going to do it right now. So some version of I just don't feel like it right now, I'll do it when. When I do. That will keep us stuck in procrastination indefinitely. We have to be able to find a strategy to do an activity even when we're not motivated. So motivation can't come before action. You have to reverse that. So take action first. And then count on motivation to maybe come down the road. Maybe. But we kind of want to just remove that from the equation altogether.

Mike Carothers (47:51)

Well, I think this is helpful for people because not only is procrastination a problem, but also when you beat yourself up for procrastinating, it makes it even worse. And maybe we can and stop doing that now. I've been talking to Hayden Finch. She is a clinical psychologist and author of the book the Psychology of Procrastination and there is a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks Hayden. Thanks for being here.

Lydia Fannette (48:18)

Yeah, thanks Mike. This has been a really fun interview. Thanks for the opportunity to share more about procrastination with your audience.

Mike Carothers (48:26)

Do you talk to yourself? We all have this image. I think of people who talk to themselves as being a little bit odd, but actually it's quite alright to talk to yourself. In fact, a study published in Science Daily suggests that talking to yourself could actually help you get through life a little easier. They did a couple of experiments. Participants were given a list of objects to find. The first group had to remain silent during their search. The second group was encouraged to repeat the names of the hidden objects as they went looking for them. The self talkers found all the stuff a lot faster than the silent searchers. So you might want to give it a try. Say the next time you lose your keys, repeat the word keys out loud over and over. Keys, keys, keys. By doing that you can change your perceptual processing and temporarily turn your visual system into a key detector. And that is something you should know. If you know someone who would enjoy this podcast, particularly if they're a procrastinator or lack self confidence, they might enjoy listening to this. Please give them the link, let them give a listen and hopefully they'll become a follower just like you. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

Lydia Fannette (49:48)

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

Mike Carothers (49:51)

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

Lydia Fannette (50:00)

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

Mike Carothers (50:04)

Yeah, like Amy thinks that you know Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas and I don't. He's too old.

Lydia Fannette (50:10)

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude 2 is overrated.

Mike Carothers (50:13)

It is.

Lydia Fannette (50:14)

Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites.

Mike Carothers (50:22)

Must sees, and in case you missed Ems.

Lydia Fannette (50:23)

We're talking Parasite, the Home Alone from.

Mike Carothers (50:25)

Grease to the Dark Knight.

Lydia Fannette (50:27)

We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look.

Mike Carothers (50:32)

And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, like Ganja and Hess.

Lydia Fannette (50:36)

So if you love movies like we do, come on along on our cinematic adventure.

Hayden Finch (50:39)

Listen to unspooled wherever you get your.

Lydia Fannette (50:41)

Podcasts and don't forget to hit the follow button.

Mike Carothers (50:51)

Hello, I'm Robin in and I'm Brian Cox and we would like to tell you about the new series of the Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet off Jupiter versus Scepter. That was very well done that, because in the screen script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series we're discussing history of Music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts.