Adam Teor (6:33)

Hi. Nice to speak to you.

Mike Carruthers (6:35)

So, first, explain why you decided to look at all these anatomical curiosities. Like what?

Adam Teor (6:41)

Why inside us is an amazing machine, an amazing piece of art, and almost none of us have any idea really what it's made of, how it works, how it was named. So I wanted to bring it and its stories to light.

Mike Carruthers (7:02)

And so let's start with goosebumps, because I think everybody has experienced goosebumps in some situation or another, and I've never understood why. What's the purpose?

Adam Teor (7:13)

Well, goosebumps are made by tiny muscles in our skin called erector pili. And these erector pili muscles attach to hair follicles. So when they contract, they pull the hairs up and away from the skin, and so the skin bunches up, making the goose flesh. Hence erector. Peli's name, pili, is hairs in Latin, and erector means how it sounds, something that erects things. But the strange thing about our goosebumps is that they don't really have a function at all other than to remind us that we're descended from animals. Animals have hair that sticks up on end when they're scared or for protection, like a porcupine with its quills sticking up. A porcupine's quills are actually hair animals. Hair also sticks up when it's cold to keep them warm, a bit like the way air inside a down puffer jacket insulates. But our goosebumps are also triggered by terror and cold. But we don't have quills to protect us or a thick coat of fur to trap air for insulation. So our goosebumps serve any purpose. They're just a relic of our evolutionary past.

Mike Carruthers (8:26)

Well, it's interesting that you get them when you're cold, and as you say, you get them maybe when you're terrified, but you can also get them in a good way. Right. You can hear somebody say something and get goosebumps by what they said.

Adam Teor (8:40)

Yes, they're sort of emotional. We get them in response to the chills, very strong emotion. And I guess that's similar to terror. Again, serves no purpose in us. Why should goosebumps help us in any way when we feel moved by music or what someone says, or extremely emotional? It's just, again, something inside us that we've inherited from our ancestors.

Mike Carruthers (9:11)

I love what you say about the left side of the face, because I have never even thought about this. But the left side of the face is different than the right side of the face and we treat it differently and have throughout history.

Adam Teor (9:26)

Yes, our face's left side is more emotionally expressive than the right side. In other words, the left side of your face is better at showing feelings. And this hugely influences how you show yourself to the world. For example, when you pose for a selfie, you will very likely angle your head to show more of the left side of your face to the camera. In fact, research shows that selfies on social media are much more likely to be left sided than right sided. And also interestingly, pictures of left sided faces get more likes on social media than right sided snaps because the left side of the face is more emotional. And this is all to do with the way your face's muscles are wired. Muscles that make expressions on the face are controlled by the opposite side of the brain. So the left side of the face is mostly controlled by your brain's right side. And that right sided brain happens to be the more emotionally competent side of the brain. So hence the left sided muscles are more emotionally competent, more emotionally expressive. And this left sided bias for emotion is, as I said, shapes the way we look at the world and the way we see the world. It's one reason why new mums cradle their baby with its head on their left side so that the baby can look up and see the left side of her face. Also new mums, you know, the baby can hear the maternal heartbeat, but it's certainly also to do with seeing the left side of the mum's face. It's why also old school portraits are much more likely to feature the left side of the face. Think of the Mona Lisa. Again, left side of her face. Lots of portraits. Interestingly, when portraits aren't designed to show emotion, for example portraits of stuffy scientists, there is no leftward bias. So when you don't want to show emotion, you don't preferentially show the left side of your face.

Mike Carruthers (11:36)

I wonder if people, if you ask people what is their best side, does it tend to be the left side?

Adam Teor (11:45)

I don't know if there's been research on that. One thing about this left sided bus is that it's sort of unconscious. We don't know that our left side of our face is more emotionally expressive, but we unconsciously know it. So whether we would admit to it, I genuinely don't know. But we are attuned to it and have been since birth. Because as I said, of the way our brain controls Our face.

Mike Carruthers (12:11)

One thing humans do, one ability that we have like no other creature on earth, is the ability to throw. Right. We throw, we can throw really fast, we can throw really far. And the fact that we can do that is why we have baseball, football, basketball and a lot of other things.

Adam Teor (12:32)

Yeah, yeah, certainly we, we are awesome throwers. And throwing is a superpower that sets us apart from other animals. You know, chimpanzees are our closest relatives, can chuck a ball at about 19 miles per hour, 30 kilometers an hour. An eight year old baseball pitcher can reach more than double that. And throwing is one of the reasons why we are what we are today. It was critical to our evolutionary success. You know, we unlike, you know, lions and wolves and dogs, we are, we don't run fast, we don't have claws or fangs. So we, so we would struggle in a, you know, a fist fight, as it were, with a lion, but we can throw a rock or a spear. And that gave us a huge advantage in evolutionary terms. And that's because of our specialized throwing apparatus in our arm and our shoulders. And that gave us, yes, that disadvantage. And throwing, as I said, the way we throw is a uniquely human thing. And it's a very incredibly complicated thing. And it's rather like cocking a crossbow, a hunter cocking a crossbow. When we pull our arm back, we store huge amount of energy in tendons and ligaments and muscles. And then when we pull the trigger of our throw, we release that energy. And that does some pretty incredible things in our arm, including producing the fastest movement our body produces, which is rotation of the humerus bone in our upper arm. And yes, so that's our sort of amazing superpower, throwing. One reason why we've evolved to be the so called superior beings that we are today.

Mike Carruthers (14:17)

But when you hear people talk about, you know, why humans are at the top of the food chain and why we are superior beings, you never hear that, you never hear people say, and it's all because we can throw a ball. But it is partly because we can throw a ball or a spear or a rock.

Adam Teor (14:36)

No, we take it for granted. And I think people who aren't baseball pitchers think that they're bad throwers. They're not, they're incredible throwers. We're, all of us are incredible throwers. And we take skills like that for granted and don't really understand how and why it happens. As I said, we just, you know, chuck something. Chimpanzee, you know, as I said, a chimpanzee can't do half of what an eight year old baseball pitcher can do. And that's an eight year old. So even, even poor human throwers are vastly superior to the best animal.

Mike Carruthers (15:10)

So we all learned in biology class how we make a baby. But you talk about how sperm has a long way to go to get where it needs to.

Adam Teor (15:20)

When I say a long way to go. 7 meters. 7 meters from the testicle where it's made to the woman's fallopian tree where it fertilizes an egg. Seven meters is four times the height of the average American man. An astonishing distance for the tiny sperm cell. And yet, when you do the math, things don't seem to add up. I'll just explain the journey that sperm take. They go from the testicle to something called the epididymis, which is centimeter long organ that sits on the back of the testicle, then into something called the vas deferens, which is the tube that's snipped in vasectomies, about 45 cm long. Then into the urethra, which is about 20 cm long from the man's urethra. They then go into the woman and travel about 15 centimeters inside the woman. Now what I've just explained adds up to about a meter. Yet I said the journey was seven meters. So there's an unaccounted for six meters. And the answer to where that six meters is is on the testis, or rather the ancient Greek for this, which is epididymis. And this incredible organ, the epididymis may be 4 cm long, but inside it is a miracle of anatomical engineering. A tube so coiled so astonishingly tightly that it stretches for six meters. So inside a four centimeter long epididymis there is a six meter long tube. And the sperm travel for about two weeks inside this six meter long tube and mature inside it. They learn to swim, they learn how to fertilize an egg. And so when they come out, spent out of the two weeks inside the six meter long tube, they are as it were, mature and able to do the job that they were made to do. And again, I think it's pretty incredible. And horses have a 80 meter long tube inside their epididymis. I think it's pretty incredible this, this organ exists. And yet again, none of us really have probably would have heard of it, but it's fairly essential for the survival of our species.

Mike Carruthers (17:36)

Strange quirks of the human body. That's what we're talking about today with Adam Teor. He's author of the book Bodypedia a brief compendium of human anatomical curiosities. It's time for Black Friday. Dell Technologies biggest sale of the year. That's right. You'll find huge savings on select Dell PCs. Like the Dell 16 Plus. With Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced AI features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster. From smarter multitasking to extended battery life, these PCs get the busy work done so you can focus on what matters most to you. Plus earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, expert support, price match guarantee and flexible financing options. They also have the biggest deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC, improving the way you work, play and connect. Whether you just started holiday shopping or you're just finishing up, these PCs and accessories make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop now@dell.com deals and don't miss out. That's Dell.com deals we frequently talk here about AI and how to use it. And I've just started using something that you need to know about called Notion. Now, if you've ever felt like there just aren't enough hours in the day, you've got notes here, projects there, emails everywhere. You're gonna love what Notion has built. It's called the Notion Agent. And it's like having another version of you that actually finishes your work. Here's how I use it. After I finish an interview or a meeting, my Notion agent reads through the notes, pulls out the action items and then puts them in the right pages inside Notion. It even tags teammates automatically, which means I can focus on creative work instead of chasing details. Notion brings all your notes, docs and projects into one connected space that just works. It's seamless, flexible, powerful, and it's actually fun to use. With AI built right in, you spend less time switching between tools and more time creating great work. And now with Notion Agent, your AI doesn't just help with work, it, it finishes it. Try Notion now with notion agent@notion.com something that's all lowercase letters, notion.com something to try your new AI teammate, notion agent today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show notion.com something. So, Adam, what about hiccups? I imagine everybody's gone through some bouts of hiccups and you hear different things about what causes them and how stop them. But what is a hiccup?

Adam Teor (20:45)

Well, they are sort of involuntary. We can't control them. But they're sudden contractions of our diaphragm. The diaphragm being the dome of muscle that separates our chest from our abdomen. And when your diaphragm contracts, air is forced into your lungs. So you inhale. But in a hiccup, the inhalation is suddenly stopped by the rapid closure, something called the glottis, which is the middle part of your voice box or larynx. And the glottis closing makes a hic sound. What's interesting about. Well, one interesting thing about hiccups is that the nerves that make that diaphragm contract are called the phrenic nerves. And what? One cause of hiccups is irritation with phrenic nerves. Phrenic is spelled P H R E N I C. And it's a mindful word. It's from the ancient Greek word for mind, fren, P H R E M. You'll know friend because it appears in many other mindful words like frantic or frenetic or frenzied or schizophrenia or phrenology. Phrenology being the loony sort of pseudo scientific theory that you can tell people's Persona from the bumps on the top of their head. So why is the nerve that contracts the diaphragm named after the mind? Well, it's because this phren was the ancient Greek source of feelings and emotions. It wasn't in the head. Greek philosophers believed that feelings emanated from the midriff, including the diaphragm. Hence phrenic nerve and phrenology and schizophrenia and frantic. Etc, Etc, etc. The record for the longest bout of hiccups is 68 years. Someone called Charles Osborne from Nebraska started hiccupping in 1922 and stayed hiccuping for 68 years. And there was nothing anyone could do to stop it. But weirdly, after 68 years, they just abruptly ceased. Wow.

Mike Carruthers (22:49)

Well, I would imagine when he was alive, if you were to ask him towards the end of his life, looking back, what was the best day of your life? It had to be that day when it all stopped. Oh. So what's my philtrum?

Adam Teor (23:04)

Your philtrum is above your lips, that sort of shallow depression with two ridges on either side that runs, you know, below your nose to your lip. Philtrum again, is a lovely word because it means love potion in Greek. The ancient Greeks considered the philtrum to be a particularly erogenous zone. Hence philtrum love potion. In fact, in English, love potions are filters. And you'll find filters in fairy tales and Harry Potter movies and Shakespeare plays. You know, you drink it and you fall in love with the person you next see. Strangely, though, for such A prominent body part. You know, we're fairly ignorant about what the Philtrum is for. You know, it's a very, very, very expressive part of our face, but we don't really know what it does. People think maybe it helps us express ourselves by providing a store of skin that can be called upon when our mouth needs to move in a way that stretches our upper lip, like smiling or crying, but we're not really sure. What is for sure, though, is that Philtrum is very important in determining attractiveness. Researchers have taken digital photographs of people and reduce the contours of people's fortunes. And when they do that, the people in the pictures are rated as being older and less attractive than the original. So it's a hugely important part of our face that tells us a lot about how attractive we may be or how young we may be, and is all about love, because it's named after love potion. But we don't really know why it's there or what it does for us.

Mike Carruthers (24:51)

Well, one thing people have a sense of anyway, is the power of the thumb. That the thumb is a pretty amazing thing. So talk about that. Yes.

Adam Teor (25:00)

Well, again, the thumb is one of our sort of superpowers, I suppose. We've got five digits on our hand, but our thumb provides up to 50% of hand function. And that's because we have really long thumbs. And the way the joints are arranged, but especially to do with the muscles that move them. And those muscles make up something called the thenar eminence, which is the bulge at your thumb's base. And inside that bulge, there are three muscles that give the thumb its astonishing dexterity. So this thenar eminence, that bulge in our thumb, is the thing that make us what we are today. And again, very important in evolutionary terms. You know, our thumbs, originally our hands, were essentially, you know, weight bearing. We strode around on all fours. When we progressed to walking on two feet, it freed up our hands and our thumbs to develop into precision instruments. And so it allowed our thumbs and our thener eminences to become tools for building tools for making weapons, tools to help us write. And if you think about that, if we couldn't write, if we couldn't make weapons, if we couldn't craft tools to build things with our hands, and especially because of our thumbs and Athena eminence and the muscles in our thumb, again, we wouldn't have had an awful lot as humans. All of that we have thanks to our hands and our thumbs. And again, something we don't really appreciate but sets us apart from every other animal on the planet, makes us very special. And yet it's our thumb. We take it for granted.

Mike Carruthers (26:57)

So I have people in my life and come across other people who have this thing called misophonia. That is, there are certain sounds that human sounds they don't like. Like the sound of chewing. What is that?

Adam Teor (27:12)

Misophonia is a thing, and it's increasingly recognized as a thing. You know, something people in inverted commas suffer from. And it's not just mild irritation. It literally means hatred of sound. Meso, as in misogynist and phoneus sound. And in response to triggers, sound triggers, people can go a bit ballistic. Their heart rate increases, they sweat, they get very stressed. They feel anxious, angry, disgusted, even feeling overwhelmed and need to stop the noise or escape it. And what makes misophonia especially discomforting is that the awful noises may be hardly noticed by anyone else and often come from other people's bodies. Yes, as you say, chewing, breathing, throat clearing, slurping, sniffing, humming. I find humming. Humming drives me absolutely up the wall. And as you can imagine, misophonia isn't a great recipe for relationship success. You know, if your partner's chewing makes you go crazy, that doesn't bode well.

Mike Carruthers (28:33)

Well, we started this promising a conversation about some of the curious quirks and design features of the human body. And I think you've delivered on that pretty well. I've been speaking with Adam Teor. He's author of the book Bodypedia A Brief Compendium of Human Anatomical Curiosities, and there is a link to his book in the show notes. Adam, thanks for coming by.

Adam Teor (28:57)

Thanks. It's been wonderful to talk to you. I've enjoyed it.

Mike Carruthers (29:00)

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Dr. Ben Rhine (32:58)

Thanks so much for having me, Mike.

Mike Carruthers (33:00)

So what do you think is going on? People have heard about this problem. The solution is pretty obvious. If people aren't connected, they need to get connected, but often they don't. So what is the problem?

Dr. Ben Rhine (33:15)

Luckily, I think it's a good thing that people have heard more and more what you just said, that it's a problem. Right. I think the big problem that's missing is why is it a problem? What's really going on? And some statistics have crept out into the public, like being isolated is as bad for you as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Things like that. You know, we've heard about the loneliness epidemic, but what's really, really going on? If you think back a very, very long time, millennia and millennia ago, human beings existed in an ancient world where there were a lot of threats. You know, we had to deal with food scarcity, we had to hunt, we had to deal with predation. We were being hunted ourselves, inclement weather, all sorts of problems. And the way that we got through it was by sticking together. We work very well in groups, and that does not necessarily make us unique. There are many, many other species on Earth that are very much the same. But because we work together in groups, our brains were evolutionarily favored to make us want to be together, because that desire to be in groups is what kept us alive. And so now if you fast forward, our brains still have the same systems they did back then. You know, we're kind of still working on this ancient hardware. The software has changed. The way we think has changed. The life we live has changed. But the brain itself, the wiring and all that is still there from the old days. And what's in there is a social reward system where when we're around people, when we have pleasant interactions, our brain cells, certain brain areas release basically pleasant, reinforcing, reassuring neurotransmitters that tell us, this is good for my survival. You should keep on doing this. Let's do this some more.

Mike Carruthers (34:53)

What's interesting to me is that so, yes, being together, being with people feels good. But when you remove those people from your life, it's not a neutral feeling. You actually feel bad. Loneliness feels, really feels bad.

Dr. Ben Rhine (35:11)

And that's probably because in an ancient world where being in groups made us survive, being alone meant you're closer to death. And so when we are isolated, it basically triggers a stress response. Our brains and bodies react as if there is an imminent threat. Our cortisol levels go up, you know, the stress hormone, it triggers the activation of the brain's stress response system and the body's, which is the HPA axis, the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis. Without the mumbo jumbo, science, language, what this means is that basically our brains set off an alarm system when we're isolated and start to make us feel stressed. And when we remain isolated for an extended period of time, that stress response can have negative effects on our health and well being. And that's not just restricted to our brains, of course. There is evidence, for instance, that being isolated is associated with an increased risk of dementia, of anxiety and depression. Things that we think of the brain, but also other body systems, heart disease, diabetes, all these things all increase with isolation. And there's a lot of science to unpack here, as you can probably tell. But the reason I share these two things is because if you look at, let's say, the amount of time people spend interacting on a monthly basis, between 2013 and 2021, that amount of time dropped by 36 hours per month.

Mike Carruthers (36:39)

Yeah, and as we said, you know, it seems like the word is out on this. People know that we're more isolated, that everyone knows they are probably more isolated. So you would think everyone would be out running around making more friends. But that doesn't seem to happen. So why?

Dr. Ben Rhine (36:57)

You know, there are many reasons for that. I think one of them is, unfortunately, that we actually tend to make a lot of very bad estimations and predictions about social interactions, often to the negative side. So for instance, we, we think that if we're going to go hang out with somebody, it's not going to be as good for us as it really is. We think that, you know, we shouldn't stay in the conversation too long because it's going to get worse. We think that compliments and things, you know, expressing gratitude are not as positive as they are. For whatever reason, we have all these, these bad estimations about interacting. And I think that's probably one of the factors that gets in our way is that we think basically this isn't going to go very well. I'm better off just staying at home. But another thing that's very interesting from a neuroscience perspective is that when people are isolated, it actually changes the way that they process social information in certain ways and again in negative ways. So for instance, an isolated person, when they have an interaction, they will experience less of that social reward. They won't feel quite as good afterwards or during. They will also have trouble with trust, they tend to distrust others. And unfortunately, as a consequence of that, others distrust them more. And also the isolated brain tends to pay closer attention to negative social signals where we kind of, you know, there's literally studies showing that the brain will show larger responses to viewing negative social images. Things like a man slapping a woman, things like that, where the brain just responds much more robustly.

Mike Carruthers (38:31)

So the idea that we need to be socially connected means what? Because I think people think that what that means is you need like really close personal best friends. And maybe that's true, and that's probably a good thing, but the bar is lower than that, is it not? It isn't just really close intimate friendships. It's all social interaction.

Dr. Ben Rhine (38:55)

That's right. And I think the overlooked part of our social diet is actually strangers. There's a lot of great evidence suggesting that interacting with strangers makes us feel better and it can hit on those same brain systems that interacting with the best friend does. Of course, sure, it's probably not the same, not exactly the same, it's not equivalent in the reward that it gives you, but it does make a difference. And so I really encourage people to think about all the time that you spend in the company of strangers. Waiting at the doctor's office, waiting in line at the grocery store, which, by the way, is why it's important to go out and do these things in real life. And during those times, if you have a short conversation with a stranger, which by the way, you probably won't want to, you'll probably feel that it's not going to go well. But if you do, I can almost guarantee that you will feel better after because there's a bunch of data suggesting that.

Mike Carruthers (39:46)

And you wonder why people don't take that to heart. Or maybe it's just the problem of I don't know how to do it, or I don't know, like it's so much easier to shop online and what's the point of chit chatting with the cashier? Because it goes nowhere. And so it's just easier to go home and binge on Netflix and do that.

Dr. Ben Rhine (40:12)

Yeah, I mean, it's easy to get sucked into that trap, and especially even more easy when you're already isolated because of the way the brain sort of shifts its thinking.

Mike Carruthers (40:21)

Well, that's, hey, that's a really good point you just made. So when people get in that kind of a, let's call it a slump where they're somewhat isolated, they're not being really outgoing and connecting with other people, the reaction Isn't. So I'll go do that. That'll motivate me to go do it. They kind of slump deeper. Like you kind of get sucked into the hole rather than get motivated to get out of the hole, right?

Dr. Ben Rhine (40:51)

That's exactly right. And actually, if you think about. Remember when Covid started to subside and we started going back to work and all that, I don't know about you, but for me, when I went from sitting at home all the time to interacting with my coworkers and my friends, I just. It didn't really feel right. I felt like there was something off, like I felt kind of awkward or it just didn't really feel the same. I don't know if you experienced that, Mike, but I feel that. I've heard other people say that too. And I think that's a pretty good example of. We've all lived through this. We've all experienced that, you know, that rust, I suppose. But look at us now. We've shaken off that rust, right? You get back out there, you experience socializing and you get through it. But I think when people really get into that rut, it doesn't feel like socializing is the way out because socializing doesn't feel as good as it usually does.

Mike Carruthers (41:41)

That's a great point. Well, what about connecting with non humans, animals, pets?

Dr. Ben Rhine (41:49)

Yeah. Well, quite shocking. Our brains treat animals, or treat dogs specifically, probably other animals too, but more so dogs with this, this kind of love. I mean, that we, we. Our brains react to dogs in much the same way that our brains react to other people and even our children. The, the takeaway from the dog part of this is having a dog is, is genuinely good for you. There's actually studies showing that basically people with dogs are healthier, they're a lower risk of heart disease, things like that. And I actually think that that can be applied to help our loneliness issue, particularly in older age, because as people get older, they tend to spend much more time alone. So I think maybe having a dog is. Is a very valuable piece there. But then when it comes to looking at the animal interactions between them, I think it's actually, it's quite astounding to realize that the kindness and love and generosity that, that humans often show each other and celebrate each other for demonstrating is not only a human capacity, but is actually something that's pretty widespread throughout the animal kingdom, which I can't help but notice that, you know, the biology when it comes to exist in the form of intelligent life is inherently nice. We are in these animals and we are nice to each other, we care about each other. And, you know, I think that's a valuable reminder that our base is to be kind and to love. And then a lot of the time what happens is in society, we overlay all these factors of division that cause us to kind of forget those basic impulses.

Mike Carruthers (43:24)

Well, one of the things that you hear is that, well, it's good to have a pet, particularly a dog, because as you say, people as they get older perhaps aren't socializing much, but the dog makes you socialize because you have to walk the dog. And is that it, or is it the connection with the dog?

Dr. Ben Rhine (43:44)

Oh, it's, it's literally the connection with the dog, actually. So when, when a dog and their caregiver look into each other's eyes, both the dog and the caregiver show a rise in oxytocin, which is, you know, the love hormone. And the oxytocin is what, what drives us to bind to others. That is what makes us feel good around each other. So when you know your romantic partner, you just want to be around them all the time, especially in those early stages. That's because there's a ton of oxytocin flowing. It's that social glue. So when you look into the eyes of your dog, you experience that same thing. And so does the dog, by the way, as I mentioned, which is great, suggests that dogs actually love us. But there's really a true healing social property inherent to those interactions with our dogs. And actually there's other studies too, showing that hanging out with the dog, you know, not even your dog, just a dog, lowers heart rate, you know, lowers blood pressure, drives up things like endorphins, dopamine. Our biology is just wired in a way that we benefit from being around dogs. And I can't help but look through an evolutionary lens at a lot of this stuff. And in this case, it makes a lot of sense because just like humans exist really well in groups, and so we are wired to want to be around each other. Humans and dogs have lived, have existed together for 30 to 40,000 years. And so in much the same way, we have evolved to really love being around each other from both sides, the dogs too, because it's good for our survival.

Mike Carruthers (45:15)

It may seem self evident, but what's the difference between interacting with someone online versus in person? I mean, obviously the differences are, are pretty obvious, but they can be somewhat satisfying, but apparently not as satisfying as real life.

Dr. Ben Rhine (45:37)

Yeah, so if you think about, there's sort of like steps to this where the top step might be an in person interaction, you go a step down, it's a video call, you go a step down, it's a phone call, you go step down, it's a text message. And as we move down this sort of staircase, we're losing social cues. So from video, from in person to video call, you lose eye contact. It's not possible to make eye contact online or unless you're looking at the camera, but then you're not making eye contact. Then you go to a phone call, you lose the facial expressions, body language, you go down to a text message, you're losing vocal tone. And so the reason I outline this is because when we interact with another human, the way that our brains know we are interacting with someone is through those important social cues. Facial expressions, vocal tone, body language. Those signals are what turn on the brain's social areas, like the areas that drive empathy, for instance, and help us understand what the other person is thinking. So when you gradually strip away those important cues and you kind of flatten the texture of our interactions down to a text message where it's just words, or on Twitter or X, what's just words, we're losing a lot of the important information that tells our brains this is a social interaction and also that tells our brains this person on the other side of this interaction has feelings. And here's what those feelings are. And so I, I believe it makes a lot of sense that as we strip away that texture, we wouldn't get as much out of the interaction. We probably wouldn't stimulate those social reward systems quite as much. And that is what the data suggests so far, that actually the less lifelike the interaction is, so text messages less lifelike than a video call, for instance. The less lifelike it is, the less enjoyment people get out of it. They don't feel quite as good coming out of it. However, a text message, for instance, is still better than no interaction at all. So there's really this kind of gradient of quality that corresponds with how much we get out of the interaction on a kind of neurobiological basis as well. And I also, I really argue this point, that because our empathy systems are not engaging, we do not experience as much empathy online and social media because we can't witness those social cues. And I think that may be why the Internet is so hostile, why people are so prone to, you know, leaving mean comments, posting harassing posts, all sorts of things. There's a really high rise in this recently, and I think it's because our empathy Systems are really not turning on in this social format that we've designed online.

Mike Carruthers (48:11)

Yeah, well, you know, it reminds me of, you know, when you get mad at another driver because you can't see the driver, you see the car, but you can't read their cues. They might be a lovely person, but you just assume they're a jerk because they cut you off. And you, you operate on that assumption because you can't interact with the person. There's no you're. It's just car to carry.

Dr. Ben Rhine (48:39)

That's exactly right. I really like that analogy. And yeah, I mean, road rage is very similar to throwing a mean comment on someone's post. But the funny thing is, if you were to be upset at a driver and you pull up next to them and they roll down their window and they're apologizing, you're probably going to feel a lot better. It's like, okay, you know what this person means? Well, if you're really angry, it might be too late at that point. But once you get those social cues to inform your brain, oh, there's a living, breathing, feeling person on the other end of this interaction. That's exactly what helps us sort of relent in our aggression. It's what calms us down and makes us understand, oh, I don't want to hurt this person's feelings. They're feeling something too. On social media, we really don't get that.

Mike Carruthers (49:19)

I think most people would agree that making friends, making connection, real connection is difficult. It's one thing to just talk to somebody, but most of the time nothing happens beyond that initial conversation. And, and so there's no real connection. But what does the data say?

Dr. Ben Rhine (49:41)

The, the data suggests that actually the person you're interacting with doesn't really matter that much in terms of, like, what their identity is and like, who they are. If it's a stranger interaction, you know, you go up to someone, you just start talking to them, you're probably going to feel good regardless of who they are. But the brain does have a very strong bias in favor of people who are a lot like us. This is, you know, homophily is the term for this, liking things that are like you. And so what often happens, I think nowadays is we have created a lot of identity factors that allow us to put a clean divide between ourself and someone else. For instance, you know, what religion do you follow? Well, if it's different from the one I follow, then you are different from me. What political stance you take. There's so many ways that we found to divide ourselves from others. And I think what we've become especially good at, unfortunately is if we detect one of those, then we kind of push the person away and say, well, you're not like me, I'm not going to be your friend. That is a very like tribalistic ancient instinct of the brain. And so what I advise people to do is try to look for other commonalities that aren't the sort of top of mind things like those I just mentioned. But for instance, you know, go to a gathering of people who share something that you like to do. For instance, you like to mountain bike. Okay, we'll find a group that's meeting up to mountain bike together. You walk in the door or into the park and you immediately find a group of people who you have something in common with. And that commonality is really the, the primary thing in the spotlight. It's not the other differences.

Mike Carruthers (51:21)

What about long term partners, marriages? What about those relationships that protect you from the loneliness and isolation that we've been talking about?

Dr. Ben Rhine (51:34)

Having a spouse and living together, inherently you are experiencing more social contact, which is a good thing. But I think what's really interesting is some of the most compelling data on that specifically and the benefit of long term partnership is actually in the face of adversity. There's some studies looking at cancer patients and they found that in several forms of cancer, when they looked at just pure survival rates, being married was a stronger predictor of survival than doing chemotherapy. And of course I should quickly asterisk that and note that part of that was because being married, when you are married, your partner is encouraging you to get the top of the line therapies, which includes chemotherapy. It's not that chemotherapy is not helpful, but also just the social support of coming home every day to a person who cares so deeply about you and is there for you in the face of stress. I mean that I think is kind of irreplaceable. And it's pretty amazing that if you try to think about what would be. If you looked at a list of 100,000 people diagnosed with cancer and you try to figure out is it their exercise, is their diet, what's going to be the strongest predictor? It's actually their marriage status. And that's quite remarkable.

Mike Carruthers (52:49)

Well, that's some powerful insight and advice that I think can help people motivate themselves to go out and try to seek out more connection because the payoff, the benefits are tremendous. I've been speaking with Ben Rhine, he's an award winning neuroscientist and author of the book why Brains need the Neuroscience of Social Connection, and there's a link to his book in the show notes. Ben, thank you for being here. What if you could lose weight by doing something incredibly simple, something that takes almost no effort at all? Well, according to researchers at the University of Birmingham in England, you actually can. In a 12 week study of 84 adults with obesity, scientists found that drinking two cups of water 30 minutes before each meal helped people lose significantly more weight than those who didn't drink the water. Everyone in the study received the same basic diet and exercise advice, but the difference was that the group who preloaded with water before meals lost an average of about nine and a half pounds over the 12 weeks. The group who didn't drink the water lost less than 2 pounds. The idea is simple. Drinking water before eating fills your stomach just enough to help you feel satisfied sooner, so you naturally eat less. It's an easy, no cost strategy that could give your weight loss efforts a real boost. And that is something you should know. Our audience grows almost exclusively because of word of mouth of people like you telling people you know and and it really helps us if you would do that. Tell people you know about this podcast. Share it with the Share button on your player. It's easy to do and it is a great way to support this podcast. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

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