SYSK TRENDING - Understanding and Controlling Our Fear

Summary

Podcast Summary: Something You Should Know

Episode: Understanding and Controlling Our Fear

Host: Mike Carruthers
Guest: Dr. Arash Javanbakht – Psychiatrist & Neuroscientist, Wayne State University
Date: June 2, 2026

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Overview

In this compelling SYSK Trending episode, host Mike Carruthers sits down with Dr. Arash Javanbakht to unpack the biology, psychology, and practical management of fear and anxiety. They explore why fear is both vital and often problematic in modern life, the difference between fear and anxiety, how mindfulness and exposure can help us manage our emotions, and why courage is more accessible than most people think. The conversation is rich with relatable examples, memorable anecdotes, and hands-on techniques.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Fear vs. Anxiety

• Fear is a direct response to a clear, immediate threat—think “lion attacking” or “gun pointed at you”.

  • Quote:

    “Fear is a reaction to an obvious threat. … But then we have anxiety. Anxiety is more a wider sense of apprehension and worry about something that might happen to us.” – Dr. Javanbakht [04:55]

• Anxiety is more diffuse—a sense of worry about undetermined threats or what could happen in the future.

  • Illustration:
    • Fear: Gun pointed at you.
    • Anxiety: Hearing there’s a gunman on the loose.

2. Why Fear Is Essential—and When It Goes Awry

• Fear is evolutionarily hardwired to keep us alive. It evolved for acute threats in our environment: predators, natural disasters, hostile tribes.

• Problem: The “hardware” of our brain hasn’t caught up with the rapid changes of the modern world—we now react to social threats (public speaking, work stress) as if they’re mortal dangers.

  • Quote:

    “The software has evolved extremely fast and the hardware has not. So we react to perceived threat in modern life the way we would 50,000 years ago.” – Dr. Javanbakht [06:16]

• Misapplied fear leads to irrational worries and anxiety that are often disproportionate to reality.

3. Catastrophizing and Reality Checks

• Most of our anticipatory fears never materialize or are much less severe than we imagine.

  • Example:
    • Friend with company of 30 employees fears losing everything and becoming a solo practitioner—a big leap.

• Cognitive strategy: Look back and notice how often you’ve “overshot” your worries versus reality. Use this as a reminder when new worries emerge.

  • Quote:

    “…look back and see on average in the past, every time you worried about something, how much you overshot compared to the reality …” – Dr. Javanbakht [08:16]

• Humans struggle to stay “in the present”; we’re often lost in reflections of the past or anticipation of the future—fueling anxiety.

4. Mindfulness in Action

Dr. Javanbakht leads a practical, real-time mindfulness exercise:

• Notice the number of distinct sounds you hear.

• Count how many colors are in your view.

• Feel different sensations—parts of shoes or sleeves.

• Outcome: Drawing attention to the present interrupts the cycle of fear and anxiety.

  • Quote:

    “This is exactly mindfulness... you use your senses to come back to here and now, which is oftentimes the safest moment.” – Dr. Javanbakht [11:17]

• Practicing mindfulness offers both immediate relief and lasting change over time, like working a muscle.

  • Quote:

    “The same way we build muscles … this kind of practice gradually teaches us to be here and now.” – Dr. Javanbakht [12:07]

5. The Lure of “Safe Fear” and Exposure

• Humans seek out fear in controlled ways—scary movies, thrill rides, haunted houses—because we enjoy the physiological rush within a safe context.

  • Personal Story:
    • Dr. Javanbakht used his fear of heights to his advantage by riding a mule down the Grand Canyon, eventually overcoming his phobia—“exposure therapy” in action.
  • Quote:

    “…when putting fear in real perspective, being exposed to what is really scary allows us to put our false anxieties in perspective.” – Dr. Javanbakht [18:20]

• The difference? In “safe fear,” we know (on some level) that we’re protected and in control. This sense of control reduces true anxiety even in artificially scary situations.

  • Quote:

    “Sense of control is one of the most important things for reducing fear and anxiety.” – Dr. Javanbakht [20:15]

6. Understanding & Practicing Bravery

• Bravery isn’t about lacking fear, but acting despite it. It’s shaped by context, training, perception, and preparation.

• Sometimes bravery is actually skill or knowledge, not fearlessness; sometimes it’s a misreading of the threat (or even “stupidity”).

• Highly performing people—athletes, actors, first responders—almost always experience fear or anxiety, but they learn to function through it.

  • Quote:

    “…you cannot totally eradicate fear and anxiety, but you want the person to get to the point that they’re able to perform and function ideally despite the face, in the face of the fear and anxiety.” – Dr. Javanbakht [21:31]

• Bravery is often defined externally—what others say about our actions, not what we feel inside.

  • Quote:

    “Bravery is something other people say about you, more than what you say about yourself...” – Mike Carruthers [23:34]

• First Responder Story:
  - A cop risked her life to save her partner; when asked about it, she replied, “I had no other choice.”
  - Quote:
  > “I had no other choice. I did not think and I could not think of any other action at that time.” – Dr. Javanbakht [24:09, recounting story]

7. In-the-Moment Tools to Manage Fear

• Bring yourself to the present—count colors, write anything down, use humor, or seek help from others.
  • Quote:

    “One thing is to try to bring myself as much as I can to here and now. Whether it’s like counting colors around me or writing something down, engaging my cognitive brain or joking about something, sense of humor bring me here.” – Dr. Javanbakht [25:08]

• Talking to others can shrink fear by offering new perspectives.
  • Quote:

    “Fear grows exponentially in a vacuum. But when you get other people involved and talk about your fear… they can help you put a better perspective on it.” – Mike Carruthers [25:43]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The software has evolved extremely fast and the hardware has not.” – Dr. Javanbakht [06:16]
• “Look back and see … how much you overshot compared to the reality … we can use our cognitive brain to basically readjust.” – Dr. Javanbakht [08:16]
• “This is exactly mindfulness. … you use your senses to come back to here and now, which is oftentimes the safest moment.” – Dr. Javanbakht [11:17]
• “Sense of control is one of the most important things for reducing fear and anxiety.” – Dr. Javanbakht [20:15]
• “Bravery is something other people say about you, more than what you say about yourself...” – Mike Carruthers [23:34]
• “I had no other choice. I did not think and I could not think of any other action at that time.” – Dr. Javanbakht [24:09, recounting a first responder’s story]

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Important Timestamps for Segments

• Understanding the difference between fear and anxiety: [04:55]
• Evolution and the modern mismatch: [06:16]
• Why worry is exaggerated compared to reality: [08:16]
• Guided mindfulness exercise: [10:10 – 11:17]
• Mindfulness as mental training: [12:07]
• Safe fear – why we seek it: [18:20]
• Vivid Grand Canyon story, exposure therapy: [18:20]
• Control as an antidote: [20:15]
• Nuanced discussion of bravery: [21:31]
• First responder bravery story: [24:09]
• On-the-spot fear management tips: [25:08]
• Using social support to reduce fear: [25:43]

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Tone & Style

The conversation is conversational, relatable, and rich with analogies and real-life stories. Both host and guest use humor and plain language to clarify complex scientific topics. Dr. Javanbakht provides not just theory but actionable takeaways for listeners.

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Practical Wisdom From the Episode

• Stay present when anxiety strikes—use your senses to reconnect with the present moment.
• Recognize when your worry is catastrophizing and check it against past experience.
• Gradually expand your comfort zone through exposure.
• Bravery is acting despite fear—not in its absence.
• Reach out to others: talking shrinks fear by adding perspective.
• You can train your courage; with mindful practice, you can reset your response to fear.

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For further resources, check out Dr. Javanbakht’s book, "Understanding the Purpose of Fear and Harnessing the Power of Anxiety."

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Thanks for having me, Mike.

[A]

So fear is something humans and I guess every other creature has. We know what fear feels like, but what is it exactly?

[B]

Fear is a reaction to an obvious threat. So if there is a lion attacking me, if a rock is falling over my head, I'm using these examples because these are examples related to the context and environment fear evolved in and the system evolved in. So in these situations, I have an object or situation right in front of me that is perceived as a threat by myself. But then we have anxiety. Anxiety is more wider sense of apprehension and worry about something that might happen to us. The example I use usually is that if someone is pointing a gun at you, the experience you have is fear. But if somebody tells you there is a gunman on the loose in your neighborhood, the feeling you have is anxiety. You don't know exactly what you are afraid of. The object of fear is not right there, but there is constant alertness and being on watch and looking for what might happen. A lot of people who have anxiety or anxiety disorders Are dealing with this, you're not necessarily worried about one specific thing here. You worry about a lot of things that may go wrong.

[A]

So I think everybody gets the idea that fear serves a purpose. If we didn't have fear, you know, we'd all be driving our cars off a cliff or, you know, running in front of a train. It wouldn't bother us. So fear keeps us alive. So when is it a problem, and why is it a problem?

[B]

Absolutely excellent point. If we were not capable of experiencing fear, we would not exist as a species. We would all have been killed by the nature or by other species or by our own competitors. So we do need fear. But the challenge is that this system evolved over a very long time to deal with the situations of its environment. And our fear secretary has evolved to basically prepare us to the conditions of fight and flight. Back in the time 50,000 years ago, the threats were natural disasters, falling rocks, predators, and other humans who were there to kill us. But the confusion here is within the modern life environment because basically I say the software has evolved extremely fast and the hardware has not. So we react to situations of perceived threat in the modern life the way we would react to these situations 50,000 years ago. Example, let's say I am giving a public speech and I'm scared, and I'm worried I may be judged, and my heart is pounding in my throat and I'm short of breath and my hands are sweating, and it is not helping me. It sounds stupid that the system which has evolved to help us and serve us is now working against us. But if you put it in the evolutionary perspective and context, it's less confusing. So 50,000 years ago, if I'm among my tribemates and they don't like me, Chances are high. In a matter of minutes, one of us are dead or I'm exiled or seriously injured. So I need that fight and flight system to work. And that's the feeling we feel inside of our chest and inside of our guts and stomach.

[A]

Well, it does seem, I think anybody who would look back at the things that they have been afraid of or felt fear about or anxiety about in the last six months probably was unnecessary. That whatever it was, never happened. It didn't. It wasn't a threat. It was just a perceived threat in your head.

[B]

That's true. That fear and anxiety, mostly anticipatory anxiety, is worse than what it really is. And a lot of us overshoot, especially more anxious people overshoot. For threat detection, we have a tendency to catastrophize. Like right before This I was talking to a friend who has a company with like 30, 40 employees and he's talking about some of the challenges, some challenges at work. And then he goes, well, at worst, I can have my own solo practice and work. Well. That was a big jump from going from 30 employees to, oh, I will be able to function as one person after losing all of these. So we do overshoot. And a lot of times I tell people, how about you look back and see on average in the past, every time you worried about something, how much you overshot compared to the reality of what you experienced, Then we can use our cognitive brain to basically readjust that next time we are in a situation that we are worrying about. The other thing that fear and anxiety do is that which is amazing about us. So we as a species are capable of reflecting on the past and planning for the future. But the problem is that even right now, our listeners are not 100% here. Part of their brain processing is in what happened earlier and in what's about to happen in a few minutes or a few hours or tomorrow. The meeting I have tomorrow, what I'm going to have for dinner when I go home, what challenge I will have. All of these things are constantly here. And we were able to be exactly in here and now, we would be a lot less stressed and a lot less anxious. And if you wanted, we can at some point have a two minute practice of just doing that.

[A]

Of doing what? Of just being in the here and now?

[B]

Yeah. I can guide a one minute experiment between us and the audience if you want.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

Okay, so I want you all to pay close attention just with the count of fingers or just tell me or yourself how many sounds you're hearing at this very moment.

[A]

2.

[B]

2. How many colors, as many as they are, do you see around you in the room?

[A]

Many. Seven. Eight.

[B]

Seven. Eight. And you can count and focus more and more as much as possible because there are different shades even in the same object.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I want you feel your shoes, feel exactly every inch of the shoe. There are parts that the foot is touching the shoe. There are parts that are not touching. There are parts which are less comfortable. There are parts which are more comfortable. Same you can do with your sleeves, like sleeves of the shirt. People can feel every single inch of it. So during this time, could I confidently say you were thinking less about past and the future?

[A]

Absolutely. I was thinking about what you told me to think about.

[B]

This is exactly mindfulness. I mean, to a lot of people, mindfulness is being with some Candle and some weird music in the basement. But this is mindfulness. This is one of the ways we use and we can use, which is very against what's happening these days. Because these days you're constantly not here. You're on your phone, you're on Instagram, you're on Facebook. 200 different contradicting and different subjects in a matter of seconds. You're just scrolling down and up. But then with these experiences, we use our senses to come back to here and now, which is oftentimes the safest moment. And when we are not in there and then which is just imaginations, Life is a lot easier and less scary.

[A]

Is that beneficial though, only for the few minutes I'm counting colors and feeling my shoes, or does that have any kind of residual effect?

[B]

Excellent question. So it's a practice. The same way we build muscles in the arms and in the body with going to the gym, this kind of practice basically gradually teaches us to be here and now. And the more and the longer we can, we will basically be able to do it longer and more and gradually. First of all, it's a respite. If I can. That's a lot of activities we do that recharge our brains, right? I go to the gym and I do go to a boxing gym. I hit the bag, not the people. During that one hour that I'm hitting the bag. I'm just right there because I cannot think about something else. And it's very refreshing. So mindfulness, any mindful activity in that sense could basically be a reset for the mind. Basically takes us away for a second from all the worries and troubles and problems we are thinking about or we have made for ourselves in our minds. But then also when we do more and more and more and more and more of this, in the midst of the anxious moments and difficult situations, it's easier for us to come back to here and now. So it's a practice that we do to basically reset the system and be able to come to here, which is the only real moment in our life.

[A]

We're talking about fear and anxiety in everyday life and we'll be talking about bravery too, in just a few moments. My guest is Dr. Arash Javenbakht. He is a psychiatrist and author of the book Understanding the Purpose of Fear and Harnessing the Power of Anxiety. I'm excited to tell you about the world's number one expanding garden hose and their brand new product, the Pocket Hose Ballistic. Now, when Pocket Hose first became an advertiser, I honestly thought, okay, it's a hose. It's a garden hose. I mean, I've been using garden hoses my entire life. How different can a hose be? And then they sent me one and okay, now I get it. In fact, I find myself, people come over, I take them outside. So you gotta see this thing. You turn the water on, the hose literally expands right before your eyes. Turn the water off, it shrinks back down to a fraction of its size. You just pick it up with one hand. But what really sold me isn't the expanding part. It's how well this thing is built. The connections are solid, the washers don't leak. It's lightweight, easy to move around. And unlike heavy hoses that you and I have wrestled with for years, this one is easy to store when you're done. Look, I never thought I would be enthusiastically recommending a garden hose, yet here I am. I use it. I love it. And if you're tired of fighting with your hose, you're going to be impressed. Now, for a limited time, when you purchase a new pocket hose ballistic, you'll get a free 360 degree rotating pocket pivot and a free thumb drive nozzle, which is so cool. Just text SYSK to 64,000. That's SYSK to 64,000. For your two free gifts with purchase. Text SYSK to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. You know, I think a lot of people have something they could turn into a business. A product, a skill, some side thing their friends keep telling them they should sell. The problem usually isn't the idea. It's the process that comes afterwards. Website, payments, marketing, shipping, returns. Suddenly your little idea feels like a full time it job. Which is why Shopify is so smart. Shopify puts everything in one place. You can build a beautiful online store with their templates and their AI tools, help with product descriptions and headlines, and can even improve your product photos. And then there's the part most people never think about until it's too late. And that's actually finding customers. Shopify has email and social marketing tools built right in so you can reach people where they already are. There's a reason Shopify powers millions of businesses and 10% 10% of all E commerce in the US it's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.comSYSK go to shopify.comSYSK that's shopify.comSYSK so Arash, I've always been fascinated by this idea and I understand why, but whenever there's something in the future that you're worried about, it's almost impossible to imagine it turning out well. You know, it's always in the negative. It's like, what if this goes wrong? Nobody ever sits around and thinks, what if this goes right? And I get why, and we're wired that way, but wouldn't it be nice if we could say, this is going to be a piece of cake, this is going to be great. This is going to be the greatest thing that ever happened.

[B]

That will be very good, and that will be even better if we were able to have an objective assessment of the threat. But, like, think about, why do we worry even about, like, jinxing things, right? You're like, oh, don't say all those good things about it. Even if you're not superstitious, you still have some worry in the back of your mind about it. And there is this other part. Oh, if I set myself for a lower level of expectations, so if bad things happen, then I'm not prepared for them. It's as if there's somebody in my head who is sitting there as a very harsh judge that if I fail, I should be so prepared to explain to them why I failed.

[A]

There's also something about fear, though, that intrigue us. We like movies that scare us, we like books that scare us. We like. So we almost, like, go after it. We almost, like, pull it in because there's something about it. Maybe it just feels good when it goes away after, I don't know. But what is that?

[B]

The same way our body needs to be active, we go to the gym, right? Because this body was designed not for sitting at the desk all day long. It was designed for other activities. We go to the gym and prepare it, and we feel a lot better. I think our fear system also needs some good, healthy exercise. We need some real fears. And the first time I thought of this was when I had my own experience of fear. Big fear. I was afraid of heights and I not thinking well about it, plus signed up for a mule ride down the Grand Canyon. So I'm sitting on the mule next to this flat wall, going down so deep and terrified. Of course, those few hours of ride down to the bottom of the canyon was basically helpful in overcoming. Basically was exposure therapy for my fear of heights. And I ended up being able to even do roles in a fighter jet. But the cool experience was after that, for a few days, I did not feel anxious. I felt so calm. Same I was talking to my boxing trainer. This Guy fights Reggie and Reggie was asking him about his fights and how it feels. And one of the things he said was fighting feels as if he's alive, which I couldn't understand. This is another one of those real mindful moments. But he also felt much less anxious the next few days after that. I think this, when putting fear in real perspective, being exposed to what is really scary allows us to put our false anxieties in perspective.

[A]

I've always thought, my theory has always been that it's like safe fear. When you go see a scary movie, deep down inside you know there's nothing to be afraid of. And yet so you get to exercise that feeling in complete safety.

[B]

Absolutely, I agree with you. Somebody chasing you with something looking like a knife in a haunted house is different than that happening on a street, on a dark street. And that is what matters here is the context. So contextually, we have a very contextual brain. Our brain is advanced to process the context and put cues in context. So that context allows you to know, as you said, you are safe, number one. Number two, you are in control. Sense of control is one of the most important things for reducing fear and anxiety. And there are many ways. I've talked about how we can basically use that sense of control to reduce anxiety. I mean, there are even researchers that where the same rats got the same number of shocks, two groups of rats, one group had a false perception that they are in charge of the shocks to get. They were less stressed. So absolutely, that feeling of safety. So you rile up the hand animal inside. But the human knows we are safe and we are in charge and can enjoy the ride.

[A]

So is the antidote to too much fear. Bravery is the ability to feel that fear and do whatever you do with it and just move ahead anyway.

[B]

So bravery is a very complicated concept because it has so many layers. Because what is perceived as bravery is an action that we see from outside. Let's say I'm highly trained at. I don't know. A SWAT team member who is highly trained in self defense feels much less scared if someone is about to rob them than I am. Is that person more brave than me? Or is that person more trained and skilled than me? Or how we perceive the threat? An accurate threat perception is important in the sense of bravery. If, let's say I don't know about snakes, I see a snake, I freak out. Someone else knows this snake is nonvenomous because of that knowledge, they look brave and they can go grab, grab the snake. But it could also be stupidity. Someone May have a very unrealistic perception of threat and they act somehow that looks brave. But there's a point to what you mentioned. We say fear and anxiety a lot of times is there. I mean, sometimes we cannot even eradicate it. I mean, we have a lot of advancements in our treatments and whether it's medications, therapies, technologies, using some advanced augmented reality technologies for that, and they help a lot. But sometimes at the end of the day, you cannot totally eradicate fear and anxiety, but you want the person to get to the point that they're able to perform and function ideally despite the face, in the face of the fear and anxiety. I mean, for a lot of people with anxiety disorders and illnesses, that's one part to learn through skills and coping skills and other abilities. But this is some the fact of a life of people who are highly performing. I know someone who goes, that very famous actor, actress or singer who goes on the stage or the high performing athletes, they always have to deal with their anxieties and fears and still perform fully ideally. And that actually is what determines a better professional from the professional which is less successful.

[A]

Very often people who are perceived as brave said, I had no choice, it was the right thing to do. And you know, if somebody, if I'm holding my own child and someone tries to grab him at gunpoint, I'm going to do everything. I'm going to do things that people would perceive. Brave. I had no choice. What else was I going to do? Maybe it was brave, but it wasn't like there was another option. You do what you have to do. And bravery is something other people say about you more than what you say. Oh, I was, I was so brave.

[B]

I work with first responders a lot. What you said just reminded me of a story. I had a cop who basically whose partner was shot in front of her and it's just the two of them and the gunman is coming towards him and shooting and she's sitting there putting her hand on her partner's neck that is bleeding to help him survive. And that was the question I asked her. I was like, you didn't worry about your own life at that moment. She exactly gave me the answer you gave. You just said, I had no other choice. I did not think and I could not think of any other action at that time.

[A]

Is there something, and there may be no answer to this, but is there something like the next time I'm in one of those places where I'm really afraid, I have fear that I can do in the moment Like a first aid thing to turn the volume down on the fear.

[B]

Yes. One thing is to try to bring myself as much as I can to here and now. Whether it's like counting callers around me or writing something down, engaging my cognitive brain or joking about something, sense of humor bring me here because being there in the la la land of fear and anxiety, number one, it makes it worse. Number two, it's not going to help. It reduces my ability to deal with the situation. Even seeking help from others, others from outside can give you perspectives that can basically both from a biological standpoint and cognitive standpoint. Other humans are able to soothe each other. So we can use these resources.

[A]

Yeah, well, I've always believed that, that, you know, fear grows exponentially in a vacuum. But when you get other people involved and talk about your fear with other people, they can help you put a better perspective on it. I've been speaking with Dr. Arash Javanbakht. He is a psychiatrist and neuroscientist. He is author of the book Understanding the Purpose of Fear and Harnessing the Power of Anxiety. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Arash. This was really interesting. Appreciate it.

[B]

Thank you so much. It was an engaging conversation. You asked very thoughtful questions and I really enjoyed it.

[A]

And if you enjoyed it, I hope you'll share this episode with your friends. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.