The Car’s History and Future & Inside Your Unconscious Mind – SYSK Choice

Summary

Something You Should Know: The Car’s History and Future & Inside Your Unconscious Mind – SYSK Choice

In this episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers explores two profound topics: the transformative history and future of the automobile industry, and the intricate workings of the unconscious mind. Through engaging discussions with Brian Appleyard, author of The Car: The Rise and Fall of the Machine that Made the Modern World, and psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Lieberman, the episode delves into how cars have reshaped our world and how understanding our unconscious mind can significantly enhance our lives.

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1. The Impact of Posture on Well-Being (00:00 - 05:00)

The episode opens with an insightful discussion on the significance of good posture. Mike Carruthers emphasizes the detrimental effects of slouching, stating:

“Bad posture can affect your flexibility and it can lead to increased strain on your joints... It can reduce your circulation. It can actually cause more stress in your body and even deepen depression.” (00:33)

Key Points:

• Physical Health: Poor posture can lead to joint strain, reduced flexibility, and decreased circulation.
• Mental Health: Slouching is linked to increased bodily stress and can exacerbate depressive symptoms.
• Social Perception: In a professional setting, poor posture may be perceived negatively, potentially impacting career advancement.
• Practical Advice: Carruthers suggests visualizing a headlight in the middle of your chest to encourage upright posture.

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2. The Automobile: A Revolutionary Technology (05:00 - 27:52)

Brian Appleyard joins the conversation to discuss the monumental impact of the automobile on society. The dialogue covers the origins of the car, the rise of Henry Ford, the competition with General Motors, the Japanese car invasion, and the future trajectory of automotive technology.

a. Origins of the Automobile (05:09 - 08:25)

Appleyard highlights the transformative nature of the car compared to other technologies like the light bulb or the computer:

“What they miss out from what the car did was the absolute physical change it brought to the world. It created roads, it created motels, it created interstates...” (05:29)

Key Points:

• Physical Transformation: The car led to the development of infrastructure such as roads, highways, and motels.
• Early Innovators: Carl Benz is credited with building the first car in 1885, with significant contributions from his wife, Bertha Benz.

b. Henry Ford and the Assembly Line (09:42 - 13:52)

Henry Ford is portrayed as a pivotal figure in the automobile industry. Appleyard and Dr. Lieberman discuss his genius and flaws:

“He was perfectly placed. He came from a farming family. He hated horses...” (09:42)

“He was easily influenced. Towards the end of his life he was thinking of handing over the company... it was only because Clara, his wife, was so revolted by the idea they stopped him.” (13:22)

Key Points:

• Innovation: Henry Ford revolutionized car manufacturing with the Model T and the introduction of the assembly line, increasing production efficiency.
• Personal Traits: Ford’s lack of formal engineering education contrasted with his relentless focus on making cars affordable and reliable.
• Flaws: Despite his successes, Ford struggled with personal shortcomings, including poor decision-making towards the end of his career.

c. General Motors vs. Ford (16:47 - 23:16)

The conversation shifts to General Motors (GM) and its rivalry with Ford, highlighting the differing strategies of Alfred Sloan versus Henry Ford:

“Alfred Sloan and Ford were the two opposites in the car business.” (16:47)

Key Points:

• Alfred Sloan’s Strategy: Unlike Ford’s production-first approach, Sloan focused on marketing and planned obsolescence, continuously introducing new models to entice consumers.
• Cultural Impact: GM’s flamboyant designs and strategic marketing campaigns, such as those by Harley Earl, contrasted sharply with Ford’s practical and affordable vehicles.

d. The Japanese Car Invasion (23:16 - 26:12)

The rise of Japanese automakers in the U.S. market is discussed, emphasizing their superior engineering and production methods:

“Taiichi Ono... developed a new production system based upon Ford's production system.” (19:37)

Key Points:

• Quality and Reliability: Japanese cars, exemplified by Toyota and Honda, gained popularity due to their reliability and superior engineering.
• Production Innovations: The introduction of the just-in-time production system minimized errors and reduced manufacturing costs, giving Japanese automakers a competitive edge.
• Market Shift: By the 1960s, Japanese cars began dominating the U.S. market, outperforming traditional American brands in quality and consumer preference.

e. The Future of Automobiles: Electric and Self-Driving Cars (23:53 - 27:52)

The episode concludes the automobile segment by exploring the future of transportation:

“I think the era of the car as we know it is coming to an end.” (23:53)

Key Points:

• Electric Vehicles (EVs): The shift towards electric cars is reshaping the industry, with companies like Tesla leading the charge.
• Autonomous Driving: Self-driving technology is advancing, though challenges remain in ensuring safety and reliability.
• Technological Convergence: Automobiles are increasingly integrating with digital technologies, transforming cars into connected devices similar to smartphones.
• Cultural Shift: The traditional joy of driving is evolving as cars become more automated and environmentally friendly.

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3. Inside Your Unconscious Mind with Dr. Daniel Lieberman (29:23 - 52:15)

In the second major segment, Mike Carruthers engages with Dr. Daniel Lieberman to uncover the mysteries of the unconscious mind. Drawing from Lieberman’s book Modern Science, Ancient Magic, and the Hidden Potential of the Unconscious Mind, the discussion delves into how our unconscious influences our emotions, behaviors, and decision-making processes.

a. Understanding the Unconscious Mind (31:31 - 35:20)

Carruthers introduces Lieberman, who explains the concept of the unconscious mind as an entity operating beyond our conscious control:

“Within every single human being in the world there are horrible drives and urges...” (01:11)

Key Points:

• Dual Minds: Humans possess both conscious and unconscious minds, with the unconscious handling vast amounts of processing beyond our awareness.
• Automatic Functions: The unconscious mind regulates physiological processes like blood pressure and muscle coordination without conscious intervention.
• Emotional Influence: Emotions and desires often originate from the unconscious, dictating our reactions and choices in ways we may not fully understand.

b. The Struggle for Control (35:20 - 45:14)

The conversation explores why individuals differ in their ability to manage unconscious impulses:

“Willpower is like a muscle in that it fatigues very, very easily.” (37:08)

Key Points:

• Willpower Limitations: Relying solely on willpower to suppress unconscious urges is often ineffective and can lead to greater vulnerability.
• Ego Strength: Developing stronger ego capabilities can help individuals better navigate and respond to unconscious drives.
• Personal Resilience: People who successfully manage their impulses often do so through a combination of inherent traits and life experiences that bolster their ability to handle unconscious influences.

c. Building a Relationship with the Unconscious (39:20 - 50:30)

Lieberman emphasizes the importance of understanding and cooperating with the unconscious mind rather than attempting to control it forcefully:

“Forging a good relationship with the unconscious mind may be the single most important task in life.” (50:39)

Key Points:

• Observation and Awareness: Becoming more aware of the unconscious processes by observing one’s thoughts and behaviors helps in understanding underlying motivations.
• Meeting Needs: Addressing the needs of the unconscious mind, such as through environments that stimulate positive thinking, can lead to better mental harmony.
• Integration: Rather than battling the unconscious, integrating its insights and impulses into conscious decision-making fosters a more balanced and fulfilling life.

d. The Positive Aspects of the Unconscious (48:38 - 50:07)

Despite its challenges, the unconscious mind offers significant benefits, including creativity and problem-solving:

“The unconscious mind has about half a million times the processing power of the conscious mind.” (48:38)

Key Points:

• Creative Insights: Many breakthroughs and creative ideas arise from the unconscious mind, often surfacing when individuals are not actively thinking about a problem.
• Efficient Functioning: The unconscious handles routine tasks seamlessly, freeing up the conscious mind for more complex and novel activities.
• Potential for Growth: By harnessing the power of the unconscious, individuals can unlock hidden potentials and achieve greater personal growth and satisfaction.

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Conclusion: Embracing Dual Influences (50:39 - 52:15)

The episode wraps up by reinforcing the necessity of understanding both the transformative power of automobiles and the profound influence of the unconscious mind. Carruthers encourages listeners to appreciate the intricate relationship between conscious actions and unconscious drives, highlighting how both have shaped modern society and individual lives.

“By recognizing those agents, learning about who they are, and establishing good relationships with them, we can deeply enrich our lives.” (50:39)

Final Takeaways:

• Automobiles: The car industry’s evolution reflects broader societal changes, technological advancements, and cultural shifts. Understanding its history provides insights into current and future trends.
• Unconscious Mind: Embracing and understanding the unconscious mind is crucial for personal development and emotional well-being. Building a harmonious relationship with it can lead to a more balanced and fulfilling life.

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This episode of Something You Should Know masterfully intertwines the evolution of one of humanity’s most significant inventions with the intricate workings of the human mind, offering listeners valuable perspectives on both societal advancements and personal introspection.

Transcript

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[Brian Appleyard]

Today on something you should know. The problem of slouching and why you have to sit up straight. Then how the car changed our world and the stories of the people who built them, like Henry Ford. Why was he so successful?

[Daniel Lieberman]

There was something about the man. He was perfectly placed. He came from a farming family. He hated horses, which was quite crucial actually. And he took great pride in ridding the world of the need for horses.

[Brian Appleyard]

Also, before, before you get a flu shot, there's something you need to do first. And what goes on in your unconscious mind. The good things and the not so good.

[Mike Carruthers]

Another word for the unconscious mind might be the uncontrollable mind. Within every single human being in the world there are horrible drives and urges. But if we deny them, if we push them away and we don't accept them, paradoxically, that makes us more likely to act on them.

[Brian Appleyard]

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[Daniel Lieberman]

Hi, Mike. It's good to talk to you.

[Brian Appleyard]

So, yes, most people would probably agree that the car has transformed the world. But people have said that about other technologies in the past. The light bulb, the computer. They've revolutionized the world. But what's different about the car?

[Daniel Lieberman]

Well, yeah, they say it about things like the horse, the stirrup on the horse, and things like that quite commonly. But what they miss out from what the car did was the absolute physical change it brought to the world. It created roads, it created motels, it created interstates, it created. The physical world has been changed by the car.

[Brian Appleyard]

I don't want to dwell too much in the in the distant past, but do we have a sense of what the first car was, where it was, and who made it.

[Daniel Lieberman]

Well, there's some dispute about this, but an official story has emerged that the first one was built in 1885 by Carl Benz, who was an engineering genius, but he wasn't a public relations genius. And what made him a public relations genius was his wife, Bertha Ringer, or Bertha Benz. And she borrowed his car and drove 66 miles south in Germany with her children, which was astonishing. No other vehicle had done more than a mile or two at the time. Now, that made it sort of the official narrative, but there are lots of close to actual cars at that time.

[Brian Appleyard]

Is the car, in terms of its impact on culture, is it mostly or originally kind of an American thing, and then it spread throughout the world? I mean, Karl Benz obviously wasn't here here, but there's something about cars in America that seem to go together somehow.

[Daniel Lieberman]

Absolutely, they do, but not at the beginning they didn't. The car was developed in Germany and France mainly in the late 19th century. It wasn't really American at all. The Americans probably needed it more than anybody because they have. It's a very big country, and it had the most appalling roads in the world at the time. There was a lot of about what was the best propulsion method for the car in America? Was it steam, electric, or gas, as you would call it? And it really took hold. First of all, it was the automobile, which is a nice little car. It didn't really take off as well as it should have done, but it did catch people's eye. It was called the curved dash automobile. This is because a dashboard in those days did not mean what we mean now. It meant the. The wood. Piece of wood in front of a carriage to stop the. The muck kicked up by the horses in front, hitting the passengers. So he made a car with a dashboard that was curved rather than flat. That's all. So it's its least interesting feature, really, but that it became known as the curved dash Oldsmobile. And so a song with a famous song was written about it, My Merry Oldsmobile. But the real change came in 1908 when Henry Ford launched his Model T. After that point, America took over the world car business.

[Brian Appleyard]

Why is it that the car business is in America, seemingly in the beginning anyway, and for many decades, centered in Detroit, Ford, General Motors? Why?

[Daniel Lieberman]

Well, it's an interesting question, and it may be just because it had to be somewhere. But what happened was the engineers and people like Ford went to that city. It was a kind of A city ready for industrialization. And the key thing was that Ford started building his Model T in a tiny warehouse in Detroit and then built two huge industrial complex. It's the biggest the world had ever seen. And that meant. That meant it was going to be Detroit. And General Motors came that later and so on. And it was all in Detroit. It's just. It's a kind of crucial place.

[Brian Appleyard]

And so Henry Ford shows up and changes everything. What's so special about him? Was he a special guy or was he just a guy at the right place at the right time? Or he just had a brilliant idea or. But what. What is it that. That came together to make Henry Ford this icon?

[Daniel Lieberman]

He was perfectly placed. He came from a farming family. He hated horses, which was quite crucial actually. And he was. Took great pride in ridding the world of the need for horses. So he took to engineering without, you know, on his own, off his own back. He didn't really have an education in engineering. He just suddenly saw this little machine that was used to drive farming machinery. And he became obsessed with it, how it worked, what it did, and he started building it himself. And then gradually people. He became aware that people were actually making cars out of this machine. He did it. But then there was something about the man that was unbelievably concentrated. So, for example, when he actually started work, he built several cars that were quite successful. He became known as a big carmaker. But at some point he realized that something was missing from the car. What he realized was that the car had to be for everybody. He wanted to make a cheap, reliable, easily serviceable car. And he concentrated all his mind on this. He did it. They did it in a special room in Detroit. The most important thing was possibly his use of vanadium steel, which is a special kind of steel that had been discovered in Britain, I think first. But then he found it. And you can make very light cars out of this stuff. And he believed in lightness like some people believe in God. You know, it's just lightness in an automobile to him was the most important thing. And it cracked it. It coped with the bad American roads by making this wonderfully ingenious suspension system that meant, you know, probably a good, good condition model. Model T would be better at going over bad roads now than a modern suv. It had a special system for holding the engine in place so that it didn't. The twisting of the suspension didn't damage the engine. It was beautiful little thing. And he started out quite cheap, and then it got cheaper. Still he kept pushing down the price and amazingly he made ever more money out of it.

[Brian Appleyard]

And he is often considered the father of the assembly line. Is that a fair assessment of him or is that more myth and real?

[Daniel Lieberman]

Yes and no. There was. It came out of thought processes from others about how you best made people work more efficiently and quicker. And other people had had these ideas. But what he did was simplify the process so that every working, every workman on the line would do one job, you know, and he did do that all day. It made it very, very efficient. The problems were later to emerge from this, which is late later story was that the Japanese made it better, but nobody had ever seen anything like this. Could produce millions of cars very easily. And they flooded out of the factory. There was such an extraordinary. They changed politics. Both Stalin and Hitler admired Henry Ford for what he did. In other words, both ends of the political spectrum. And they admired him because to them this seemed like a new world, a new way of organizing humanity. It was a new politics in a way.

[Brian Appleyard]

As I understand it, Henry Ford, genius though he may be in the car industry, wasn't a particularly bright guy, well educated, worldly kind of fellow. You right.

[Daniel Lieberman]

There was a sort of monstrous simplicity of the man. He was easily influenced. Towards the end of his life he was thinking of handing over the company. Not to his son, whom he didn't regard as that competent, but to somebody called Harry Bennett, who's a low life thug. He beat up people who protested against working conditions and things. He was a low life thug. It was only because Clara, his wife, was so revolted by the idea they stopped him.

[Brian Appleyard]

So Henry Ford was the man, the character, the myth behind the Ford. I want to ask you about General Motors and who was behind all that. I'm speaking with Brian Appleyard, he is author of the book the Car the Rise and Fall of the Machine that Made the Modern World. Dell Technologies Black Friday event is live and if you've been waiting for an AI ready PC this is their biggest sale of the year. Tech enthusiasts love this sale because it's all the newest hits plus all the greatest hits all on sale at once. Savings on Dell technologies most popular PCs that accelerate AI with Intel Core Ultra processors are here like the XPS 16. So if you're ready to step up all the things you like to do, streaming, surfing, multitasking, whatever, Dell Technologies AI Ready PCs are the perfect upgrade. And for the best of Intel Core Ultra processors, look for Intel EVO edition laptops engineered to do it all. Just visit Dell.com deals. Whether you're treating yourself or thinking of others, these Black Friday prices were worth the wait. But it's only for a limited time. Shop now at Dell.com/deals. You know, today anyone can sell anything online. And if you use Shopify to do it, you are setting yourself up for success. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Whether you're just setting up shop or you have a physical store, or even if you've had a million orders or more. Shopify will help you grow your business. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers. They have the Internet's best converting checkout 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And what I love about Shopify and what you can see when you peek inside. No matter how big or small you are, Shopify offers everything to manage and control your business. And what's really great is you don't need to know anything about web design or coding or anything. Plus Shopify's award winning help is there to support you every step of the way. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase go to shopify.comsysk to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.comSYSK so Brian Henry Ford is Ford. His name is on every car that he makes. Who's behind General Motors?

[Daniel Lieberman]

Well, there were two people, both utterly different. The big one, the big name was Alfred Sloan. And Sloan and Ford were the two opposites in the car business. And Sloan was so boring to meet. I mean he was catastrophically boring. I mean, he still is because if you look at Wikipedia, he's got about third the length of Ford's entry. People can't find anything interesting to say about him. This was because he was concealed himself from the world. He had something to hide. I don't know what it was, but he certainly wanted to hide himself. Paralyzingly boring when you can look up YouTube videos of him and he talks as if like an undertaker on a bad day. But he had perversely his idea. He wasn't boring in his idea, which was that the way to sell cars was to market them. Ford sort of did market cars, but he did it on the assumption that if you told your customer about the Model T, they would buy it. You know, if you build it, they will come. And he was right for a long time. But after 19, 20, 28, the end of the 20s, he stopped producing the Model T and Never came up with anything to compete with it. And as a result, General Motors became the big competitor for Ford and it did so by marketing. He got in, Sloan got in, Harley Earl, who built most extravagant cars imaginable. The opposite of Ford's puritanical small cars, light, small, everything. The opposite. He just built massive, heavy cars that we all. By the time they got into the 50s, we all recognized them, the great Cadillacs and so on. Absurd cars with gigantic wings at the back, which made no sense sort of in engineering terms, but they would, because people. Ford also introduced planned obsolescence so that, you know, he would build a new car model every year, model of the same car every year, which had very little difference. But he would say you had to have the new car and people had. If the people saw their neighbors had the new car, they then went out and bought one themselves. So he created a marketing system which is kind of like the parallel of Ford's production system, but applied to marketing and it was just hugely successful, but it didn't produce great cars.

[Brian Appleyard]

Something happened, I believe it was in the 60s when Japanese cars started showing up in the United States. And at that same time, it was a time when American cars seemed to be suffering from a lack of quality, that they weren't as reliable, they weren't as good as they could be. And Japanese cars showed up to perhaps fill that gap. So what happened there?

[Daniel Lieberman]

There was a brilliant, brilliant Japanese engineer called Taiichi Ono and he was working for Toyoda, as it was called now, later Toyota, because Western is found it easier to pronounce. And he developed a new production system based upon Ford's production system. Ford and General Motors production systems. But when he looked at the production system, he could see all these flaws. One of the key flaws was that if you have men doing one thing at a time, occasionally they'll do it wrong. And it would go to the end of the line and you'd have to take the car and put it all right. So all these Ford type production systems had a sort of room beyond the production line where they were putting cars. Right. He saw this as catastrophic and stupid. And he designed that out by saying any worker working on the line who saw a mistake or a fault could stop the entire line, which sounds like craziness because you'd think that has reduced production. But of course it didn't because you had to work out why exactly it had stopped, what had gone wrong, get it right so it would never go right and wrong again. Whereas the Fordian system was reproducing the same errors but just fixing them at the end. That's a huge change. Combined with this other change, which was that Ford just got a. His stuff delivered or manufactured it himself at River Rouge and just chucked it into the bins where the workers are working. But Ono said, no, no, that's too, we, we're not paying for all that stock. We're just going to make sure that the things arrive just in time. So he created the just in time production system. Now, it took a while for it to work. The problem was that Americans were resistant to non Detroit cars or non American cars as generally. And the only car that was making any inroads was the German Volkswagen Beetle. And it was being bought by young people who regarded as deviant, eccentric, wicked, you know, because they bought this car, but it was a groovy car. By when it really got going, everybody wanted one. And that was a sign, a warning that Detroit should have noticed, but it didn't, or it decided to ignore it. And along came the Japanese. First of all, they, they started to invade the market in the 50s and 60s and make serious inroads thereafter. And this appealed to young people because they were, you know, young people were increasingly anti corporate in those days. So they thought, we'll stick it to the man in Detroit and buy a Japanese car. And again, the, the Detroit didn't believe it at first. They couldn't believe this was happening. But these were good cars, you know, and they were, you know, they weren't spectacular cars. They were just good, they worked, they lasted.

[Brian Appleyard]

You know, it's interesting, not that long ago, my son and I were at a shopping mall and we were walking through the parking lot and he said, count the American cars. And there were hardly any 1 out of 10, 1 out of 15. Everything else was Japanese, German, Korean. But there weren't that many Fords and Chevrolets.

[Daniel Lieberman]

They made a big mistake. Ford and General Motors, they thought, you see, if they had, if you built a big car, you could then persuade the customs to buy it and then you could put on all these extras so the car comes out a lot more expensive. Now when they analyzed a way of doing a small car, they decided it wasn't worth it because they'd have to make sort of 10 or 20 small cars to make the profit they did on one heavily loaded Chevrolet. And so they made the mistake of thinking a small car simply wasn't possible for them. But people did want small cars. They're easy to drive around towns. They're, you know, they don't consume as much gas that increasingly they showed it by buying them.

[Brian Appleyard]

One of the reasons, in my view anyway, one of the reasons for the success of the car has always been that sense of you get behind the wheel and drive. You go where you want to go, you go as fast or slow as you want to go. You've got a gas powered engine, you can rev if you want to rev it. And now things are changing. We're going electric. We're looking at self driving cars where you don't really drive it anymore, a computer does. And a lot of people don't like that. They find that very disconcerting to me too.

[Daniel Lieberman]

I think the era of the car as we know it is coming to an end. I think this process will accelerate and we won't be seeing internal combustion cars. I don't know whether there'll be electric cars that replace them with hydrogen, but one or the other. And we're also seeing increasing computer intervention in the driving conditions. We already have that. I mean it's very interesting if you look at a car is becoming more like an iPhone. An iPhone works because it doesn't work unless you're connected to something. And it's becoming like that with cars. I mean, Tesla now doesn't even have to ask you about changing the software, it just drops it in from the cloud. Now so far the attempt to make them self driving is stalled. They're not really getting very far with it at the moment and it's much more complicated than they realized. And it's risky because people get killed. But I have no doubt that the kind of money that has been put in this will produce something very different to what we now know. And that that will happen quite quickly. If you have, if, if you look at, and also if you look at the way both Apple and Google about the same time started work on a self driving car. Now there's a reason for that. They're the richest companies in the world. They're all in Silicon Valley. It's not in Detroit, it's not in the old world, it's in the new world. So basically these vast tech companies stuffed full of money want to move into this area. And it's not just the cars. They'll change cities, they'll put in cloud control of cars and cities, it as a whole. So yeah, it's changing. And I can see why people would say that's a good thing. And in a sense I accept all their arguments. Cars have killed a lot of people. They kill about 1.3 million people a year. They do cause problems for the environment and for our health. I understand all that. I accept all that. But I don't think you should allow those negatives to overrule the great positives that the car brought to people. They brought freedom on a scale unimaginable before.

[Brian Appleyard]

Obviously, there are a lot of interesting players in the history of the car business, but you shine a spotlight on Honda and, well, why is that?

[Daniel Lieberman]

Honda is the name, you know, on your cars. But the man was just extraordinary. He was the only businessman, Japanese businessman, American businessman, thought they could get on with. This was because he was a bit of a party animal and, you know, he didn't have that reserve that Japanese businessman seemed to have about them. He was pretty wild. He went. He developed motorcycles, brilliant motorcycles, moved into cars, developed increasingly brilliant cars. He was, I think, probably the greatest of all the mainstream car makers. As an engineer, he made the most beautiful fast car. And the Honda nxx, which everybody I know are the experts. I know. And Gordon Murray is one of the greatest fast car designers in the world. This changed his life when he drove this car. Not because it was faster than anything else, because it just handled. And Murray went on to build the most expensive car in the world, the McLaren. And he owed it all to Honda because he just saw how Honda did it. He was a great engineer. I just fascinated by it.

[Brian Appleyard]

Well, it's certainly an incredible story. And as you point out, not all of the story is good. The car, the automobile, has done great things. It's also done some harmful things, but it has undeniably changed the landscape of the entire world. So it's interesting to hear about the people behind it. I've been speaking with Brian Appleyard. The name of his book is the Car the Rise and Fall of the Machine that Made the Modern World. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Hey, thanks, Brian. This was really interesting.

[Daniel Lieberman]

Thanks, Mac. That's been a real pleasure and a great interview.

[Brian Appleyard]

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[Unknown]

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[Brian Appleyard]

You essentially have two minds, your conscious mind and your unconscious mind. And when you think about it, most of the things you do and the choices you make happen unconsciously. Your unconscious mind makes your life easier by just doing things that you have to do so you don't have to stop and think about doing them. But the unconscious mind doesn't always work in your favor. And that's what we're going to talk about with psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Lieberman. He's the author of a book called Modern Science, Ancient Magic and the Hidden Potential of the Unconscious Mind. Hi Daniel, Welcome.

[Mike Carruthers]

Thanks so much for having me back.

[Brian Appleyard]

Absolutely. So since the first sentence of your book Is there's someone living in your head besides you. I guess we should start there. What do you mean by that?

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, it's something that we don't often like to think about, that we are not alone inside of our heads. But if you think about it, you're really not in all that much control in terms of what goes on inside your mind. You don't get to choose whether you have a good day or a bad day, what your emotions are, how much psychological energy you have. In fact, you don't even get to choose the things that you want, the things that you use your time and energy to pursue. These are all things that are chosen by the unconscious mind. And getting to know that other person, that other inhabitant inside your head can be very valuable.

[Brian Appleyard]

And so when you say we don't can't choose our emotions, we can't choose the things that you just outlined. Why can't we? Why don't we?

[Mike Carruthers]

I think it's difficult to say why. It's simply the way that evolution has formed our brain. Like all animals, the vast majority of it is unconscious. And another word for the unconscious mind might be the uncontrollable mind. It's only this tiny sliver of consciousness that we have control over, but that's the part of our brain that we identify with. And so, as a result, we don't always give the unconscious mind the credit that it deserves.

[Brian Appleyard]

But so often we hear that, you know, we should be in control of our emotions, that we should be in control of all of those things, that that's what a healthy person does and doesn't give in to these impulses and other things.

[Mike Carruthers]

And I think that that is so misguided because in some ways that's saying, well, we should be able to fly. The truth of the matter is that we simply can't. And if we try to deceive ourselves, if we give ourselves more credit than we deserve in terms of what we're able to control, we become delusional about it. And that's when we get into trouble. I think that we've all had experiences of being overwhelmed by our emotions and saying things that we should not have said. We've all seen news stories about highly accomplished people completely destroying their career because they gave into an unimaginably stupid impulse. We've got to stay humble. We've got to realize that there are these forces inside of us, and we have to learn how to come to.

[Brian Appleyard]

Terms with them, Come to terms with them or learn to work with them. Control Them, adapt to them. What does it mean to live with them?

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I think that all of those terms are good, except control. Because again, we're stepping away from this attitude of humility that I don't completely control everything that goes on inside of me. And so when I say come to terms with it, I think that it's almost as if we were making friends with this other person inside our mind, or I should say people, because there's all kinds of agents in there, all pursuing their own goals. We come to terms with them, and perhaps we can even tame them the way a rider might tame a horse.

[Brian Appleyard]

If that's true, what are we talking about this for? If the guy who lets an impulse destroy his career because his unconscious mind made him do it, basically, then he's going to do it. So. So that's the end of that.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I think we can go back to the metaphor of the horse and its trainer. One mistake the trainer could make would be like thinking the horse is like a car and he just presses a button and the horse goes where he wants it to. Obviously, that's not going to happen. The other mistake he could make is saying that he has no influence over the horse at all and that the horse is simply going to go where it wants and he has no say in the matter. And of course, that's not true either. He needs to take a sophisticated, skilled approach to forging this partnership. And the same is true with the unconscious mind. We cannot control it directly, but we can learn strategies to develop a better relationship with it. And let me give you a very simple example. One of the very simple things the unconscious mind does is it controls the physiological balance within our body. For example, our blood pressure. You can't consciously will your blood pressure to go down. But if you happen to have a pet dog in the house, and you consciously will to go over and pet your dog, your unconscious will drop your blood pressure. So there are ways that we can learn how it works, and we can use that knowledge to forge a better partnership.

[Brian Appleyard]

There are people, though, who seem to have a pretty good handle on what they do. You know, they don't ruin their careers. They don't get in trouble, they don't get arrested. They don't drink too much. They have a sense of control over their lives. And they don't give in to whatever this unconscious mind is that you're talking about. And I think plenty of those people aren't trying deliberately to grab the reins there. They just don't give in.

[Mike Carruthers]

As a psychiatrist, I do A lot of work with people who engage in self destructive behaviors and their immediate instinct is, well, I just need more willpower, I need to just say no. Or as you put, I need to not give in. We find that that generally doesn't work. Willpower is like a muscle in that it fatigues very, very easily. So for example, if you're on a diet and you say no to a chocolate chip cookie, that's going to make it much harder to say no to the angel food cake that you're faced with later. So I would take issue with that, that there are people who just don't give in. And I would say that the people who don't have difficulties with unconscious contents disrupting their lives probably fall into one of two categories. One is that some people just don't have very strong unconscious drives. Their passions are relatively weak and as a result they're very easy to. They're very easy to go against them if that's not what they want to do. That's not a great situation to be in. Because these unconscious drives that can destroy our life are also the things that give us motivation and energy and the passion that we need to achieve very difficult goals. The other category they may fall into are people who have suffered a great deal, people who have had very, very difficult lives. And one of the sad facts of life, of human nature, is that it does seem to be hardship which moves us down the path of developing this good working relationship with our unconscious mind. So I don't think this is anything that comes easily. I think it's something that has to be earned.

[Brian Appleyard]

And so given that, then what should people be doing to do what you're talking about? How do you actively, proactively, consciously do this? Or does it just happen?

[Mike Carruthers]

I think that the first step is if you want to make friends with someone, the first thing you want to do is get to know them better. You ask them, where are you from? Where did you grow up? What are your hobbies? The first step here is getting to know your unconscious mind better. And you do that by becoming simply a better observer of what's going on in your head. The technical term for it is the observing ego. If you're angry, you don't identify with the anger and say, oh my gosh, I'm so angry. You take a step back and you say, hmm, my brain is generating anger. Let's see what that feels like. Let's think about why that is and see what I can do with it. You just try to notice more. When are you having A good day. When are you full of energy? Or when is the opposite occurring? The second thing you do is you do what you can to meet the needs of the unconscious mind. I was just talking to a gentleman who was telling me about this work retreat they had. And originally they planned to rent out some hotel ballroom and simply have it with a bunch of folding chairs, et cetera. But at the last minute, they decided that they were going to spend a little bit more money and they were going to go out to this nature preserve and have it among trees and sky and clouds. And it made a revolutionary difference in the quality of the meeting. And it wasn't because they had any different presenters or because the topics were different. It was because it was an environment that was conducive to stimulating the best parts of the unconscious mind. So I think that just like a horse trainer is going to exercise his horse and feed his horse, we should pay attention to the needs of our unconscious mind and try to meet them whenever we can.

[Brian Appleyard]

It's interesting to think of your unconscious mind as having its own needs different than the ones you think you have. That it is, as you say, like someone else living in your head. That just doesn't feel right. That seems weird to me.

[Mike Carruthers]

It does. And yet, how often are we tormented by desires that we know are bad for us? Many of us have had the experience of having an incredibly strong attraction to someone that we know would be a terrible partner for us. And we wish we could just put them out of our head, but we absolutely can't. Primitive desires like junk food often torment us. Or even more sophisticated things. For example, we may be very ambitious. We may want to get great prestige. We might want to have a huge bank account. While deep inside knowing that's not going to make us happy. And it's going to distract our attention from the things that we find truly fulfilling.

[Brian Appleyard]

My sense is that when people think about those desires, those desires that they have that could just screw things up or could go nowhere, you're right. They think that it's a matter of willpower, that they shouldn't have those desires. Or at least they wonder, where do they come from? I mean, why would someone desire something that could do them absolutely no good?

[Mike Carruthers]

It's unfortunately part of the human condition for us to experience this split. We all know the saying, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. The human condition is this very strange combination of spirit and matter, of mind and body. The unconscious is much more associated with the body, with the flesh. We tend to associate ourselves with the mind and the spirit. But it's the fundamental reason why it's basically uncomfortable to be a human being. And we often try to flee from this split, this division that's within ourselves. And one of the easiest ways to do it is to try to take out the unconscious mind, at least temporarily. That happens every night when we sink into sleep. Sometimes we get into a hot bath or we watch mindless videos in order to turn off the unconscious mind. In extreme cases, we shut it down with intoxicating drugs. But it can be exhausting having this split to constantly be at war within ourselves. But unfortunately, that is the human condition.

[Brian Appleyard]

Well, it is good news to hear that, because I think when people have those kinds of desires, those kinds of thoughts, they think there's something wrong with them. But what you're saying is everybody has them. They're just not the same ones all the time. But everybody has these bizarre thoughts or desires that don't necessarily line up with who you think you are or should be.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, that's a very important thing to keep in mind. Within every single human being in the world, there are horrible drives and urges within them, and it's not a good idea to deny them. Obviously, we don't want to act on them. But if we deny them, if we push them away and we don't accept them, paradoxically, that makes us more likely to act on them. Because then they're hidden in the darkness and they can ambush us when we're not prepared and sometimes take over and make us act out these terrible impulses.

[Brian Appleyard]

Well, when people have these impulses, some people do act on them and some people don't. So why do some people act on them and some people don't?

[Mike Carruthers]

I think that there's two reasons for that. One reason is that, as I mentioned, you're more likely to act on them if you try to pretend they're not there. Unconscious drives can express themselves in one of two ways. One way is through behavior, and that's what animals do. That's instinct. But the other way an unconscious drive can be expressed is simply by experiencing it consciously. So if I feel like I'm so angry with someone, I want to punch them in the face, I might say, oh, my gosh, I'm not a violent person at all. Where did that come from? I'm going to forget about that as soon as I can, because it's very disturbing to think of myself as violent. Alternatively, I could allow myself to feel that urgency, to feel that violence and say, yeah, this is part of me But I have a choice. I don't have to act on it. So that's one way that we can avoid acting on these destructive urges. The other way is to build up our ego strength, to build up our willpower. Willpower is not such a great tool, but it's certainly a tool that we have and that we need to use. And there are ways that we can build it up and make it stronger.

[Brian Appleyard]

You know, something I've always found interesting, and I don't know what the explanation is or if there is one, but you know, when you get one of those uncontrollable urges to say something or do something, particularly if it's based in anger and you're going to. If you say it, you're going to hurt somebody. Or if you do it, you're going to hurt somebody. And yet it still, it feels so right. And you so want to do it in the moment, and yet so often you so regret it later. You're so remorseful, you can't take it back. The damage is done. How? One thing that can feel so right in one moment and so wrong later, and we can't see that in the moment we still want to say it or do it.

[Mike Carruthers]

The only mind that I have access to from the inside is my own. And so I can speak from my own experience. And there are moments where I feel that I don't have that ability to pull back. I know times when I've been in an absolute rage, and I hate to admit it, but it's been actually pleasant to say hurtful things to people that I actually care deeply about because I was possessed by this rage. There are other times, though, when I do feel I do have a moment. For example, I want to eat a piece of chocolate. And there is a moment when I can say no. But in my mind, what I tend to do is I weigh the pleasure of indulging myself now against the pain of maybe looking at myself on the scale tomorrow morning. And unfortunately, the current pleasure usually wins out.

[Brian Appleyard]

Well, the way we've been talking, it seems like the unconscious mind is nothing but trouble. But it must also be positive. There must be some good to the unconscious mind. So talk about that.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, you know, the unconscious mind has about half a million times the processing power of the conscious mind. Just to give you an example of how powerful it is when you simply walk down the street. Your unconscious mind is coordinating literally millions of individual muscle fibers in order to maintain your balance, your tone and your forward locomotion. It has enormous processing power. There have Been a number of famous people in history who have talked about being struck by inspiration. They've been struggling with a difficult problem that their rational mind was absolutely unable to solve. And then all of a sudden, boom, out of the blue, the answer comes ready made right into their mind. And it completely solves the problem. That's one of the amazing things the unconscious mind can do. And I think we've all had the experience, whether we're writing a presentation, writing a report, maybe doing something creative. When ideas just pop into our mind that solves problems our conscious mind was not able to figure out. It happened to me many times where I would hit a problem where I just couldn't figure out how to explain something. And then invariably it would happen when I was drifting off to sleep at night. The solution would hit me. And it was far better than anything else I could come up with myself.

[Brian Appleyard]

But that seems so uncontrollable. That just happens when it happens, and you can't have any influence on that.

[Mike Carruthers]

I think that that is largely true, but I don't think the unconscious mind is ungenerous. I think it gives us more than we realize. And we need to cultivate the habit of paying attention.

[Brian Appleyard]

And so when the dust all settles, what's the message here? What is it you want people to really get? What's the guts of what you're saying here?

[Mike Carruthers]

What I want them to get is that forging a good relationship with the unconscious mind may be the single most important task in life. Think about the time when you said to yourself, I've never felt more alive. That's what we live for. We live for those moments when we feel most fully alive. It's not about prestige. It's not about money. It's not about pleasure. It's about the feeling of being full of life. And we often call those moments magic moments. That's what we want. And they seem to come out of the blue by chance. It seems like we have no control over them. But in fact, there are agents underneath there. There are agents creating those magic moments, those feelings of being fully alive. And by recognizing those agents, learning about who they are, and establishing good relationships with them, we can deeply enrich our lives.

[Brian Appleyard]

Well, it does seem weird, as you say, that there's someone living in your head besides you, and that all these impulses and thoughts and feelings are going on seemingly without you controlling it. But it's good to get an understanding of it. So I appreciate you joining me for that. I've been speaking with Dr. Daniel Lieberman. He is a psychiatrist and author of the book Modern Science, Ancient Magic, and the Hidden Potential of the Unconscious Mind. There's a link to his book in the show notes. I appreciate you coming back on Daniel. I enjoy the conversation.

[Mike Carruthers]

Oh, thank you so much for having me back. It was a pleasure.

[Brian Appleyard]

As we head into winter in flu season, it's probably a good idea for you to make an appointment to get your flu shot. But before you go in to get it, make sure you've gotten plenty of sleep. Researchers at the University of Chicago say that the flu shot can be up to 50% more effective if you're not sleep deprived. Taking a nap before or after your shot won't help much. You really need to be well rested for several nights prior to getting the vaccination to get the optimal protection, and that is something you should know and if you enjoyed this episode. The best thing you can do to support this podcast is to share it. Tell someone you know about it, and let them give a listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. Ladies and gentlemen. What are you doing? What do you mean?

[Mike Carruthers]

Let's keep it simple. I'm making the promo.

[Brian Appleyard]

Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros.

[Mike Carruthers]

Two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav bro. No, dude, stop with the voice.

[Brian Appleyard]

Just keep it simple.

[Mike Carruthers]

I've seen promos on tv, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are get tired of it already.

[Brian Appleyard]

We need some oomph.

[Mike Carruthers]

All right then, fine. Let's try to do it with your.

[Brian Appleyard]

Voice, Brav bros. Good job. Contained herein are the heresies of Radulf Pantwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a.

[Daniel Lieberman]

Loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Redolf Bandwein.

[Brian Appleyard]

Wherever podcasts are available.