The Essential Qualities of Inspiring People & The Rules of How Life Works

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Essential Qualities of Inspiring People & The Rules of How Life Works"

Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guest 1: Adam Galinsky, Social Psychologist and Professor at Columbia Business School
Guest 2: Sean B. Carroll, Vice President for Science Education at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and Professor at the University of Wisconsin, Madison
Release Date: January 30, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers delves into the intriguing realms of what makes individuals truly inspiring and explores the fundamental rules that govern life and ecosystems. Through insightful interviews with experts Adam Galinsky and Sean B. Carroll, listeners gain valuable perspectives on leadership, human relationships, and the intricate balance of nature.

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Fast Food Advertising and Its Psychological Impact

Timestamp: [03:10]

Mike Carruthers opens the episode by discussing the subtle yet profound influence of billboard advertising on consumer behavior. A UCLA study highlighted that regions with more outdoor advertisements for fast food and soft drinks tend to have higher rates of obesity. Carruthers explains the psychological strategies behind these ads, noting the common use of red and yellow color schemes.

• Red: Encourages faster and more aggressive eating behaviors.

  "Red causes you to eat faster and more forcefully," ([07:30] University of Rochester study).

• Yellow: Stimulates appetite by increasing serotonin levels, the happiness hormone.

This segment underscores the power of marketing psychology in shaping daily habits and health outcomes.

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The Qualities of Inspiring People

Insights from Adam Galinsky

Timestamp: [05:42]

Adam Galinsky, a renowned social psychologist, shares his extensive research on what distinguishes inspiring leaders. Drawing from two decades of studying thousands of individuals, Galinsky identifies three universal characteristics that transcend cultural and geographical boundaries:

1. Visionary: The ability to perceive and articulate a compelling future.
2. Exemplar: Demonstrating desired behaviors consistently.
3. Mentor: Actively guiding and supporting others' growth.

Galinsky emphasizes that these traits are not confined to any specific domain but are essential across all forms of leadership worldwide.

Universal Characteristics of Inspiring Leaders

Timestamp: [07:24]

Galinsky elaborates on the three key factors:

1. Being Visionary: Inspiring leaders envision a better future and communicate this vision effectively.
2. Being an Exemplar: They embody the behaviors and values they wish to see in others, serving as role models.
3. Being a Mentor: These leaders invest in others’ development, fostering growth and resilience.

"Being visionary, being an exemplar, and being a mentor are the three universal factors." ([07:24])

Practical Advice on Being More Inspiring

Timestamp: [09:00]

Galinsky introduces the concept of reflection as a foundational practice for becoming more inspiring. He shares a transformative study conducted with the Swiss government, where participants engaged in a values reflection task. This exercise significantly increased their likelihood of gaining employment by helping them reconnect with their core values and fostering a sense of optimism and agency.

• Reflection Task: Identify and prioritize personal values, understand their importance, and recall recent behaviors that align with these values.

"The people who are truly inspiring reflect on their experience... They think about how they could be better the next time." ([12:10])

Real-World Example: Pilot Tammy Jo Schultz

Timestamp: [19:02]

Galinsky recounts the heroic actions of Captain Tammy Jo Schultz during an in-flight crisis. When an engine exploded on Southwest Airlines Flight 1380, Schultz maintained remarkable calmness, provided clear communication, and personally ensured each passenger’s well-being post-landing. Her actions exemplify the three universal traits:

1. Visionary: She communicated a positive and clear vision of safely reaching Philadelphia.
2. Exemplar: Displayed unwavering calmness under pressure.
3. Mentor: Took personal responsibility for passengers' emotional and physical safety.

"She was that exemplar of desired behavior... She was an inspiring mentor." ([19:02])

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Rules of How Life Works

Insights from Sean B. Carroll

Timestamp: [30:50]

Sean B. Carroll explores the foundational rules that govern ecosystems and life on Earth. He introduces the concept of keystone species—organisms that have disproportionate effects on their environments relative to their abundance.

Keystone Species and Ecosystem Impact

Carroll explains that removing keystone species can lead to drastic and often unforeseen changes within ecosystems. He uses the example of wolves in Yellowstone:

• Historical Impact: The eradication of wolves led to an overpopulation of deer, which in turn devastated plant diversity due to excessive grazing.
• Restoration: Reintroducing wolves helped restore balance, showcasing their critical role in maintaining ecosystem health.

"Some creatures have a really outsized role in the diversity and stability of their ecosystems." ([31:47])

Indirect Effects Between Species

Timestamp: [37:23]

Carroll discusses the intricate indirect relationships within ecosystems, such as the dependency of tree growth on salmon populations. Salmon transport vital nutrients from the ocean to forest ecosystems, promoting tree health and diversity.

"Salmon are like a conveyor belt for nutrients coming from the ocean into these forests." ([37:23])

Resilience of Nature

Timestamp: [47:09]

A key takeaway from Carroll’s discussion is nature's resilience. Ecosystems have an inherent ability to recover when given time and the chance to restore balance. Examples include:

• Bald Eagles: Populations rebounded after the ban of DDT.
• Sea Otters: Restoration efforts have revitalized kelp forests by controlling sea urchin populations.

"Nature is incredibly resilient... they can rebound spectacularly." ([47:09])

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Relationship Insights

Although not the focal point, the episode touches on relationship dynamics, citing Dr. Carl Pillemer’s research on long-lasting marriages. Key strategies for maintaining a happy relationship include:

1. Communication: Regular and open dialogue.
2. Attention to Small Interactions: Focusing on daily positive interactions rather than solely addressing big issues.

"The trick is to make as many of those interactions positive." ([50:14])

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Conclusion

In this episode, Mike Carruthers successfully bridges the gap between human leadership qualities and the intricate rules of natural ecosystems. By interviewing Adam Galinsky and Sean B. Carroll, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of what it takes to inspire others and how natural systems operate on profound, interconnected principles. These insights not only enhance personal growth and leadership skills but also foster a deeper appreciation for the resilience and complexity of the natural world.

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Notable Quotes

• Adam Galinsky on Inspiring Traits:

  "Being visionary, being an exemplar, and being a mentor are the three universal factors." ([07:24])

• On Nature’s Resilience:

  "Nature is incredibly resilient... they can rebound spectacularly." ([47:09])

• On Reflection and Improvement:

  "The people who are truly inspiring reflect on their experience... They think about how they could be better the next time." ([12:10])

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the impact individual actions can have—whether in inspiring those around us or understanding and respecting the delicate balance of our ecosystems. By embracing visionary thinking, exemplary behavior, and mentorship, we can not only elevate our personal lives but also contribute positively to the world around us.

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For more insights and episodes, visit OmniCast Media and subscribe to Something You Should Know wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know. How billboard ads for fast food restaurants influence you more than you realize. Then what makes someone inspiring and how we can all be more inspirational.

[Adam Galinsky]

There's not a single characteristic or trait of an inspiring leader that is specific to a country or even to a continent. Every single element occurs in every single country in the world. So what are these three universal factors?

[Mike Carruthers]

Also two little things that can have a huge impact on your relationship and the rules of how life works and the amazing ways species of all kinds depend on each other.

[Sean B. Carroll]

And one of my favorite examples is the influence of salmon in western rivers on tree growth. Like what? Yes, trees need salmon. So who would have thought that all.

[Mike Carruthers]

This today on something you should know.

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[Mike Carruthers]

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[Mike Carruthers]

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[Mike Carruthers]

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the.

[Sean B. Carroll]

World'S top experts, and practical advice you.

[Mike Carruthers]

Can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. You know, I got a cold about three weeks ago and it still hasn't completely gone. I still cough like three weeks later. And I've come to find that so many people have this, whatever this is going around, the cough and cold that will not die. So if my voice sounds a little froggy, that's why. But the show must go on. And we start today with fast food advertising. I bet you've seen a lot of billboards all over the place for fast food restaurants. And maybe you've wondered, well, do those ads really work? Well, a UCLA study a few years back found that areas with more outdoor advertising dedicated to fast food and soft drinks were more likely to have overweight residents. Fast food restaurants after television, fast food restaurants spend a lot of money on billboards, bus ads and other outside advertising spaces. And there's more psychology at work here. Wendy's, McDonald's, In n Out, Burger, Burger King, all have the same basic color scheme. Why? Because red and yellow make you want to eat more. Red causes you to eat faster and more forcefully, according to a University of Rochester study. And several studies have found that the color yellow stimulates appetite by causing your brain to secrete serotonin, the happiness hormone. And that is something you should know. In your lifetime, there have been people who have inspired you. A parent, a teacher, a boss, a co worker, someone who has made you feel inspired, given you that sense that you are worthy, appreciated, competent, capable and can do so much more. So what makes a person inspiring? Do inspiring people deliberately try to inspire others, or is that just the kind of person they are? Do inspiring people inspire everyone? Are they always inspiring? How can you be more inspiring? That's what Adam Galinsky is here to talk about. Adam is a social psychologist and professor of leadership and ethics at Columbia Business School. He's author of a book called the Universal Path for Leading yourself and Others. Hey Adam, welcome to something you should know.

[Adam Galinsky]

Thank you so much. I'm so thrilled to be here.

[Interviewee]

So I love this topic because I've often thought about what makes somebody inspiring. And I think everybody has seen somebody met somebody who they thought was inspiring. But I don't know that I've ever thought of.

[Mike Carruthers]

Why is that?

[Interviewee]

What is it that makes them inspiring? I just know they are. And then I wonder, well, are they our? Are they inspiring just to me or Are they inspiring to the world?

[Mike Carruthers]

So what is it?

[Interviewee]

What is that thing?

[Adam Galinsky]

It's a great question. And about 20 years ago, I had an experience where I was teaching the FBI and one of the agents started talking about a leader of his that inspired him. And it was such a remarkable moment for me because I saw everything about his body change. His eyes light up, he smiled, he looked wistfully in awe. And you could tell that this leader, for whatever they did, changed that person inside. They created that sense of wellspring, of hope and possibility. And so at that moment I decided I wanted to study what was it about that person or about people in general that inspire others. So I started a two decade long journey in which I've asked thousands and probably tens of thousands of people a very simple question, which is, tell me about someone that inspired you. Right. And I asked them to be like a scientist. What was it about that person that filled you with that ineffable feeling which.

[Mike Carruthers]

I imagine most of us have felt? Right?

[Indeed Ad Voice]

I mean, most of us have somebody.

[Mike Carruthers]

In our life that inspired us to create those feelings.

[Indeed Ad Voice]

And so what did you find?

[Adam Galinsky]

What I've discovered with these thousands and thousands of examples is it turns out that there are three universal characteristics or factors that really distinguish between these people that changes inside positively and another type of leader. I call them the infuriate leader that create these sort of seething cauldrons of rage and resentment inside of us. And so it actually turns out it's asystematic and b universal. So there's not a single characteristic or trait of an inspiring leader that is specific to a country or even to a continent. Every single element occurs in every single country in the world. So what are these three universal factors? Well, the first one is how we kind of look at the world, how we conceive and perceive the world. And I call that being visionary. The second factor is how we kind of stand in the world, our presence, how we are in the world. And I call that being an exemplar of desired behavior. And the third factor is how we interact with others in the world. And I call that sort of being a great mentor. And so these are the three universal factors. Being visionary, being an exemplar, and being a mentor.

[Indeed Ad Voice]

You know, I often wonder, the people that I find inspiring, I wonder how often, how much of the time are they inspiring?

[Mike Carruthers]

Because it would seem that it would.

[Indeed Ad Voice]

Be hard to burn that flame continuously to always be inspiring.

[Mike Carruthers]

That doesn't seem possible.

[Indeed Ad Voice]

So.

[Mike Carruthers]

Right.

[Adam Galinsky]

It's our current behavior that inspires or infuriates. You may be inspiring today, but infuriating tomorrow. Right. What you do today is not going to protect you from falling to the other end of the continuum. And so we're never going to be inspiring all the time. We're never going to reach this apotheosis of inspiring perfection. But we can strive to be more inspiring tomorrow than we were today. Right. And that is, I think, the fundamental, most important insight of my research.

[Interviewee]

And so what does it mean to try to be inspiring because you do things like what that you may not be doing now?

[Adam Galinsky]

Well, so I think one of the other key things that my research has shown is that one of the foundational elements for being more inspiring today than you were yesterday is the power of reflection. Reflecting on our experiences, reflecting on important aspects of ourselves. And so actually can go through. And I can give you what is the key reflection that allows us to be more visionary or more exemplary or a better mentor, because I think these provide profound insights for how we can become more inspiring. So let me tell you about a study that we did which I think is going to have a big impact on listeners. If any of you out there have ever lost a job, you know how demoralizing it is, how humiliating it is. I lost my first post college job three months after being hired. I was fired, right? And I was just so demoralized. So we did this study with the Swiss government. We went into an employment agency where everyone has to register in order to get unemployment benefits in Switzerland. And we gave half of these people coming into the employment agency a little 15 minute reflection task. We said, I want you to think about your values. What are your top five values? Now put them in a hierarchy. What's your most important value? Right. What's the one that animates the others? Just put them in a little hierarchy. Now I want you to think about why are those values important to you? Then finally think about times when you've demonstrated those values recently in your own behavior. Two months later, we found that people were given this values recall intervention, this reflection task, were twice as likely to have a job than people in our control condition. In fact, the effect was so strong, we stopped the study and gave everybody the values reflection intervention. Now what's going on there? There's something again, getting back to that need for meaning, understanding. There's something about our reflecting on our values that centers us, that gives us a little bit of optimism, a little bit of agency, and allows us to overcome all those psychological deprivations that occur when we lose a Job.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what does it mean?

[Interviewee]

Give me, if you could, an example, like a person or maybe yourself or someone. You know what that reflection process goes like. I don't know what it really means to reflect on my values other than to think about them. I don't know what the difference is.

[Adam Galinsky]

Yeah. So for me, I've done this task myself. We actually give it to every single MBA student walking into Columbia Business School. And so you just start thinking about it. Now. One of the things we do is we give people a link to a list of values, because it's hard to create them off the top of your head. A Google sheet. And I started just thinking about values, and I'd put some down, and then I'd realize I'd find another one that was more meaningful toward me. And then I started. I had a particular, you know, ranking, and then I changed it. And so for me, my. My. My single top value is generosity. And it's not just generosity financially. It's generosity in. In spirit and in thought. Being generous in trying to give people the best interpretation for their behavior. Right. Trying to contextualize why someone did something, giving people the benefit of the doubt. My second important thing is what I call positive energy, optimism, humor, good naturedness. Another value of mine is creativity. How do we be creative and solve the problems that we have in unique and creative ways? Another one is what I call kaizen. Now, my wife spent time in Japan, and they have a word for continued improvement, which is kind of the heart of inspire and how to inspire others. And so that, to me, is really important. How I want to always be striving to be better at everything I do. Every time I do a podcast, I want to do it better the next time, for example. And so then you can start to think about why do those values matter so much to me? Well, I want to always be improving. I love creative solutions. I love humor. Every birthday, I go see standup comedy. It's really important to me. But generosity is the one that drives them all, because that's what I want to be in the world. I want to be a generous person, always trying to give people what they need, giving them the benefit of the doubt. And then I can think about times recently where I could have blown up at someone, but I thought about the fact that they were going through a really rough time, and I gave them a little serenity for that or a time where I screwed something up. But the next time I did it better, and I had that continued improvement.

[Interviewee]

And that's it.

[Adam Galinsky]

That's it 15 minutes. I mean, this thing is like we don't really know what the secret sauce is yet because we collect lots of measures. Say, what is it that's transforming people to getting jobs? Jeff Cohen of Stanford University, he did a study with at risk middle school students. He gave them this values reflection eight times over two years. To some group of students, five years later, they were more likely to graduate high school and go to college. There's something powerful. You know, our values like we have an inherent One of the most profound truths about humans is that we have a clarion call, a need for a sense of meaning and higher purpose. And our values in a sense, give us that sense of meaning and higher purpose. It's why being visionary is one of the three fundamental dimensions of being an inspiring person.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're talking about what makes inspiring people so inspiring and how you can be more inspiring. My guest is Adam Galinsky. He's author of the book the Universal Path for Leading Yourself and Others. So let me ask you, is 2025 going to be the year you finally launch that business idea you've been thinking about? If what's stopping you is you don't know how to make it happen, well, Shopify is how you're going to make it happen. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand, open your business, and get your first sale. You can get your store up and running easily with thousands of customizable templates. You don't need to know coding or design. All you have to do is drag and drop. And their powerful social media tools let you connect all your social media channels and create shoppable posts that help you sell everywhere people are scrolling. Shopify helps with all the details, the things that maybe have been holding you back, like shipping and taxes and payments. It's all on one single dashboard, allowing you to focus on growing your business. If you don't do it now, you're going to look back one day and wonder what if you had? And regret sucks. I mean, you don't want to kick yourself when you hear this message again a year from now. With Shopify. Your first sale is closer than you think. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase go to shopify.comsysk to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.comsysk I really love it when I.

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[Mike Carruthers]

So, Adam, those three universal factors you.

[Indeed Ad Voice]

Mentioned, being a visionary, being an exemplar, and being a mentor, it's kind of.

[Mike Carruthers]

Hard for me to get my head around exactly what you mean.

[Indeed Ad Voice]

So could you attach those three things to some real people who exhibit those.

[Mike Carruthers]

Who illustrate those so I can get a better sense?

[Adam Galinsky]

Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that I'll tell you a story about a remarkable pilot that I think really captures that right? Is Tammy Jo Schultz was flying Southwest Airlines 1380 from LaGuardia to Dallas when the left engine exploded and literally tore a hole in the side of her plane. Right. One passenger was sucked into that hole and didn't survive. It was fatal. But she miraculously and remarkably landed the plane with no further injuries. And we can see these three elements come into bear. The first thing that she recognized was, as she described it, she said the plane wanted to descend, so we let it do what it wanted to do and we descend it. Now. That's fine. That's great. She's a great pilot, but she recognized that when there's a hole in a plane and you're descending, the passengers probably think that plane is going down. And so she got on the intercom and she gave them what I call an optimistic why this vision for what was happening. And she said 10 simple words. And the passengers commented afterwards that it literally transformed the entire cabin from just abject fear to hope and possibility. She said, we are not going down. We are going to Philly. Right. And so she gave them a why and a where and where they were headed. Now, if you listen to her on the intercom, she is the most calm. They're like, is your plane on fire? She's like, no, but there is a hole in it. It's pretty damaged. Just very matter of fact. And when she landed, she was immediately evaluated by EMTs. And one of them said to her, how did you get through security? And she looked at him, puzzled, like, what are you talking about? He said, how did your nerves of steel not set off the security alarms? You're completely calm. Your heart rate is normal. Your physiology is normal. So she was that exemplar of desired behavior. She was a calm the eye of the hurricane, but courageous protector of the people on that passenger. And then before she left the plane, she walked row by row and looked every passenger in the eye and made sure they were okay. Afterwards, she commented, she's like, I'm still surprised that more reporters have commented on what I did after the plane landed, going row by row, than what it took to fly this crippled plane. And that shows that she was this inspiring mentor, right? She was empathizing and taking care of the people and encouraging them and making sure that they were okay. And so these are these three elements about how to do that.

[Interviewee]

That's a great story and a great example of those three things that I think people can get a better sense of what that is. But you had said a few minutes ago that you can be inspiring one day and infuriating the next day. And. But when I think of inspiring people, while I'm sure that's true of them, it doesn't seem like it's true. A lot of like, it isn't. They seem. There's something about their character, the way they carry themselves, that seems inspiring much of the time. It isn't. Like it's on and off a lot.

[Adam Galinsky]

I think that's also true. Right. And I think that one of the things that I've discovered about inspiring leaders, people who are more inspiring more of the time, not always inspiring, they're occasionally infuriating, is that they've really set up practices or habits for how to be a better person, essentially. And so they've tried to embed them into their daily lives. Let me give you just sort of one example of this, which is one of the things that we can do to really lift people into the clouds is that especially when we're in positions of leadership, because I've actually coined a phrase that called the leader amplification effect. That Everything we do as a leader, good and bad, small and big, gets amplified and then its impact is intensified on us. So a frown from a leader is like a knife in your heart, but a compliment can lift you into the clouds. And there was someone that I was talking to, president of a bank, 1400 employees. And he said, here's what I do. Every single morning over my cup of coffee. I send a birthday greeting to every one of my employees. And it's pretty simple, right? He showed me an example. It's like, hey, Mike, I hope you have a great birthday. How was bowling and jogging this weekend? And so he can pump five of these out a day in less than 10 to 15 minutes. But then he showed me the responses he gets back. It's like, oh, my God, I had such a great weekend. This is what we did in bowling, blah, blah. It's like a novel that comes back. And he said that he realized that he says, sending those birthday messages, they put a skip in their step. But they also put a skip in my step. They come back to me and they make me feel good by their responses. And I think that is something that goes back to the Bible. Reap what you sow. If we send out infuriating signals into the world, we're going to get infuriating signals back. But when we plant the seeds of inspiration, right, we spread those seeds, but we also get those, the blooming flowers of inspiration coming back to us. And so it's, you know, that's a great example. He had a daily habit of sending these messages right forward, right? You could do that yourself every morning. You could wake up, have a cup of coffee and just say something positive, constructive, complimentary, expressing gratitude to someone in your orbit, and you're going to put a skip in their steps, and they're going to put a skip in your step when they reply.

[Interviewee]

When you talk to inspiring people, people who are considered by others to be inspiring, do they say, typically, yes, I work at this.

[Mike Carruthers]

This is what I try to do.

[Interviewee]

Or do they say, you know, I don't. It's a gift. I couldn't tell you how I do it.

[Adam Galinsky]

I think there's two different aspects of it I think are really important there. The first is, I don't know if they would say I'm inspiring because many of the people who are truly inspiring also tend humble people and so wouldn't identify themselves as inspiring. But they certainly recognize that they work on one of these three universal features. So, for example, one person might talk about how, yeah, I work really Hard on making sure I see the big picture. I communicate it. I make sure that we all are going in an optimistic direction. I find ways to simplify it so that people can understand that or someone else is like, yeah, I really practice at being calm in a crisis. Right. I know how important that is. I know because of leader amplification effect that my anxiety will become their anxiety. But if I'm calm, they're going to be calm. Or they say, yeah, I work really hard at trying to meet the needs of other people. Being that good mentor, they might not use those words, but they recognize the power. But here's the one element that I think characterizes every person that we might describe as inspiring. And it goes back to one of the things that we've already talked about is again, the power of reflection. The people that are truly inspiring reflect on their experience. They reflect on the things they did good that day, and they work on how they might continue them. But they also reflect on the times when they didn't see the big picture or they lost their temper or they were anxious in a crisis. They think about how they could be better the next time. I think that is really so profoundly fundamental. People say the reflected life. Only the reflected life is worth l But it's the reflective life is what allows us to be the best possible version of ourselves.

[Interviewee]

And when you look at people who are considered inspiring, do they have other things in common that aren't necessarily related to the inspiration, but they tend to be. I don't know, they tend to be men, or they tend to be women, or they tend to be older, they tend to be younger. Are there any, like, demographic y kind of similarities or. It's all over the map.

[Adam Galinsky]

There are not. And I think that's, again, gets back to this idea that leaders aren't born, that they're made. But I will say that there's one thing that I think does really help people be more inspiring and why it's so important to be inspiring yourself is that it's a heck of a lot easier to be inspiring if you had inspiring people as your mentors, as your parents, as your leaders. Leaders. Because one of the things that we know is that we tend to perpetuate the leadership that we receive ourselves. I discovered this self as a father. My dad had this volcanic rage that would come out for spilling milk. Just ridiculous. But it tortured and terrorized me. And I even had nightmares with my dad chasing me in my dreams. My dad was a wonderful, wonderful person. He's probably the most inspiring person in my life. But he had this one infuriating flaw, right? And early on, as a parent, two little boys, I, they would spill milk and I would explode in rage. Just like it's like I felt like I'd become my dad, right. You know, and I, and I saw the effect on them, the immediate impact, like the, the sense of like that fugue state of like panic that they experience when that, that rage came out. And I had to train myself to not be my dad and to be a different type of father, to have all of his inspiring traits, but not take on that one Floridian flaw. And that again, gets back to the power of reflection. I could reflect on my experience, I could reflect from where it came from, but I could also then plan and make commitments and put in practices in place to prevent them from happening in the future.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, this is great insight into what makes someone inspiring and information I think we could all use in our lives. I've been speaking with Adam Galinsky. He is a social psychologist and professor of leadership and ethics at Columbia Business School. And the name of his book is the Universal Path for Leading Yourself and Others. There's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Adam, thanks. It's a pleasure to have you on.

[Adam Galinsky]

Thanks so much, Mike. I really enjoyed the conversation and thanks for asking such amazing questions.

[Mike Carruthers]

Sergeant and Mr. Smith, you're gonna love this house.

[Amy Nicholson]

Bunk beds in a closet.

[Sean B. Carroll]

There's no field manual for finding the right home.

[Mike Carruthers]

But when you do, USAA homeowners insurance.

[Sean B. Carroll]

Can help protect it the right way.

[Mike Carruthers]

Restrictions apply.

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[Mike Carruthers]

Nature has rules and ways of enforcing them. In fact, everything in nature is regulated. And it is those regulations that allow all the creatures and other forms of life to exist on planet Earth. Those rules essentially explain how life works. And here to discuss this is Sean B. Carroll. He's an award winning scientist who is Vice President for Science Education at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and professor of Molecular Biology and Genetics at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. He's author of a book called the Serengeti Rules the Quest to Discover How Life Works and why it matters. Hi, Sean, thanks for coming on today.

[Sean B. Carroll]

Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So, to help us all understand what we're talking about here, let's start out with one of those rules, one of the rules that explains how life works.

[Sean B. Carroll]

Well, let's start with one rule which is really some animals are more important than others, or if you want to use the Orwell saying, are more equal than others. There's sort of a poetic description sometimes of nature that, you know, everything matters and everything has its role. But it turns out that some creatures have a really outsized role in the diversity and stability of their ecosystems. And when ecologists started to discover this, it was to. Even to their own surprise, well, the consequences are great. So that if you think about, for example, people may be familiar with the story of both the eradication and then the later reintroduction of wolves in the Yellowstone ecosystem. So in the early part of the 20th century, there was a great effort to eliminate wolves virtually everywhere in the lower 48 states. You know, because they were disliked by humans, their effect on livestock, they were scary, et cetera, et cetera. What we didn't understand what we were doing was we were taking a creature that had a really outsized impact on the stability and diversity of its ecosystem. We were taking it out of the picture. And this had huge consequences. One of those consequences we can still see all over the place, which is, for example, the enormous numbers of deer that are in many states. And those deer, in turn, have enormous consequences on plant diversity because they mowed, they mow down the plants and forests, et cetera, et cetera. So the discovery that some creatures have these outsized effects was a surprise. It's sort of. They were about these sort of hidden connections in ecosystems. And then we understand that if we can replace some of these things, maybe we can reverse some of the changes that. Some of the unwanted changes that have happened in places. So it's. I give you the wolf example, but, you know, in the tide pools on the Pacific coast, that certain starfish in the Serengeti, it's the wildebeest that the massive numbers of wildebeest just munching the grass have an enormous impact on the diversity and stability of that ecosystem. So this gives us insight into really how these systems work and how we can better manage them in the future.

[Mike Carruthers]

And this impact that these creatures have is good, bad, both or.

[Sean B. Carroll]

Well, I mean, you know, nature. Nature was around a long, you know, we. We're late comers to nature, right? Humans and. And human population growth is very, very Recent. So most of these places, you know, have operated on their own without human intervention for hundreds of thousands or millions of years. And then we came along and, you know, in either in settling these places or in wanting to exploit them. For example, think of things like the fur trade and things like this where we, we took specific creatures because we wanted, we wanted them for, for our own gain. We've disrupted the balance in, in those systems. So from nature's point of view, these creatures are all good. From our point of view, they were either bad or desirable for other reasons. And we, you know, we eliminated them and then we've really sort of, you know, tipped these systems into a different place. So it's rethinking our relationship to nature. You know, not to, not to make ourselves out as the, you know, as bad and evil or anything like that. It's just we're doing this unwittingly. We just didn't understand our impact. When we, for example, eliminated most of the sea otters, for example, from the Pacific coast. And what that did, amazingly to kelp forests, you know, you'd sort of think, I mean, why would, why would sea otters have any influence on kelp forests? Well, it turns out they eat the things that eat the kelp forests. And if you don't have sea otters, the kelp forests can't grow. Grow. And those kelp forests are great habitat for fish and those fish are great food for bald eagles, et cetera, et cetera. So there are all these domino effects that removal of these, what are called keystone species, keystones, dubbed after the name of the keystone in a Roman arch. Removal of these keystones have really outsized effects on systems. And so their restoration can have outsized effects on the, the restoration of the health of these ecosystems.

[Mike Carruthers]

But nature by its nature is pretty efficient, right? I mean, if you're a creature and you're meant to stay, you stay, and if you're not, you go.

[Sean B. Carroll]

It's a very competitive world out there. Yeah. And, you know, creatures are competing with each other of, you know, different kinds and of their own kind for resources, etc. And that these are very complex web of interactions that's going on, you know, anywhere, you know, along the, you know, in a coastal system system, you know, in a forest, in a pond, out on a plains. But that web, when you. There are certain components of those systems that when you remove them, the web sort of collapses. And that's what humans were doing unwittingly for I think a good part of the 19th and 20th centuries. And it was a bunch of biologists, bunch of ecologists studying these systems over long periods of time in the last four or five decades of the 20th century that put together essentially from studying different systems, an understanding of these rules that sort of knit life on a large scale together. And understanding these rules then of course empowers us with a better understanding of what's our best long term behavior.

[Mike Carruthers]

And what are some of the, just to get a flavor of this, rather than drill too deep, what are some of these other rules that you've uncovered that would help people understand what this is and why it's important?

[Sean B. Carroll]

Yeah, let's, let's, let's go with one. So one rule are these certain species that have these outsized effect called keystone species. Another rule is there's sometimes really strong indirect effects between species. And one of my favorite examples is the influence of salmon in western rivers on tree growth. You're like, what? Yes, trees need salmon. How does that work? Well, it turns out that those rivers think of things like the Columbia or Snake, you know, sort of majestic rivers in the Pacific Northwest. Those rivers don't carry a lot of nutrients. But salmon, when they come upstream to spawn, and when those salmon are then taken, for example, by predators and eaten on stream banks and all that sort of stuff, a lot of the nutrients that they bring from the ocean get into the forest and you can map those nutrients right into the growth of those trees. So it turns out that salmon are like a conveyor belt for nutrients coming from the ocean into these forests alongside these rivers. So who would have thought that, right? I mean, it's just sort of stunning to think that trees are somehow influenced by salmon. Yeah. And as you know, a lot of those rivers have been dammed. That's blocked off the salmon. Well, that has effect on the rivers, that has effect on the forests around those rivers. And so again, there's a lot there now. There's a huge movement. There's a lot of dams being taken down in the west and biologists are monitoring what's going on. And as the salmon populations come back, you can actually see the nutrients moving up those rivers again. So those, these strong indirect effects. The idea is that salmon would influence trees or that otters would influence the kelp forest. For example, the number of wildebeest on the Serengeti influences the numbers of giraffe. I can go through that again, that explanation as well. These strong indirect effects, these domino effects that ripple through a system, they really were unexpected. And so almost everyone is a sort of surprise. When it's discovered that the dependence of species on each other are not obvious. You have to sort of map these out.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, you had mentioned before, like, the proliferation of deer in many states. We have them here. We have them in our front yard this morning. And there's an assumption, and you tell me if this is true, that one of the reasons that there are so many deer is, you know, we don't really hunt them as much as we used to. And probably also people think they're cute and like to feed them and. And that's partly why they have proliferated. True.

[Sean B. Carroll]

Yeah, that's part. That's partly why they're doing well. But the hunting really wouldn't have been that significant until the deer herds exploded in the early part of the 20th century. So deer, when, you know, when wolves roamed the lower 48 in abundant and, you know, in large numbers, deer numbers were. I'm going to take a stab at maybe a fiftieth or a hundredth of what they are now. I spent a lot of time in the state of Wisconsin, and, I mean, the annual deer hunt is a huge thing culturally, and the deer herd is enormous. But some of the pioneering ecologists of the 20th century understood that, you know, that that was a huge change from, say, that from the 19th century, and that deer exploded when you took away their predators. So predators have a big role in controlling the size of populations of their prey and take away the top predators, and you can have an explosion in the number of their prey. So really, deer numbers are abnormal all over the country because they have essentially no significant natural predators. I mean, there are a few, you know, wolves are coming back in various places, but they're not making a dent. And now deer have spread over all these, you know, suburban and urban populations, and they're making a living on our gardens. Right. So, yeah, so. So deer, you can. I know they're cute, but they are essentially an invasive species, or at least they're a species that's. That's out of control, out of natural control. So, you know, I think deer are with us to stay in these large numbers. But, you know, for a lot of people, you see deer and you think, oh, that's wonderful. That's nature. But it's. It's really a. A big difference from. From the way things were, say, a century ago.

[Mike Carruthers]

Maybe. I don't want to hammer the deer thing too much, but you would think that at some point there would be too many deer for the food that's available and that that would Start to level out the population.

[Sean B. Carroll]

That's a great point, Mike. In fact, essentially the third rule, and that third rule is that the density of populations is sort of self limiting. So when there's a lot of food, abundant food, and populations are small, they will grow explosively, but that sort of population fills up the space. And as food starts to become limiting, that will slow or in fact, sort of reverse that to a. To a population decline. So lots of things are density regulated. And so deer are, you know, have expanded their habitat, they're filling, you know, our suburban areas and things like that. But there's still limits on deer in terms of food abundance. And there's also, you know, there's cars, you know, as, you know, there's lots of collisions and things like this. So there's various things that are constraining the deer population as well as disease, you know, because they have certainly acquired some diseases now that they're in close contact with humans. So, yeah, so this. The general concept is that, you know, no area will be. There is a limit to how much can be carried by the population, can be carried in any given area, you know, limited particularly by food supply.

[Mike Carruthers]

My sense is there's a tendency to look at, you know, what humans have done to mess things up. But do other creatures mess things up?

[Sean B. Carroll]

That's a hugely important, maybe sort of philosophical question, I think. You know, you said earlier about how nature kind of works these things out. Let's take something like a beaver and you could say, all right, a beaver builds a dam, and that dam diverts some water. And, you know, does that impact other creatures? It certainly does. And maybe it impacts the ability of fish to get around in some places and things like that. But it also, in creating these wetlands, you see all sorts of plant life that thrives in the wetlands, and then creatures that invade these places or exploit these places. And so beavers are often referred to one of nature's engineers. You know, their net effect is, you know, to create habitat for lots of different things. So we, you know, in a lot of places, we took out beaver and we straightened out rivers, we straightened out waterways. We didn't want beaver dams on our, you know, on our. On our waterways. We wanted, you know, unfettered access to this. But, you know, it's hard for me to see the beaver in a negative light because, you know, it has done this particular job for eons and all sorts of creatures became dependent upon that job. And then we came in and essentially took the beavers out of the picture. And lots of Things, you know, suffered for that. So it's, it's often the case, you know, it's, I mean, I'm going to try to see if I can come up with some other example where you might wonder about. I'll jump through to elephants. Okay. You can look at like, elephants are incredibly majestic creatures, but they're pretty tough on forests. Elephants will knock down a lot of trees. And I've been in areas in Africa where it's pretty astounding what elephants can do to a forest and probably can do it in a fairly short period of time. And yeah, if you're knocking down trees, you're probably taking away nesting sites from birds. You may be taking away food from other animals. So the knock on effects of some of these creatures are negative for, for other creatures. But take away the elephants and then you don't get to turn over the forests and you don't get fertilization through their dung. And that supports all sorts of other communities and so on and so forth. So it takes some thinking through the myriad effects of creatures in these ecosystems to sort of weigh these things out. But I think on balance we see that, that, you know, ecosystems, the systems themselves are healthier when the components that have been there for eons are, are there and thriving and working. And you know, these forests that produce, you know, oxygen and timber and, you know, rivers that give us fresh water and glaciers and rivers that give us fresh water and oceans that produce fish and things like this, these are all more productive when they, when their diversity is intact. So I think on balance, it's a long way to get around to your question and say, you know, do these animals have negative impacts? I would say, you know, yes, in probably a narrow view, but in the broader view, they've evolved as parts of these systems and the integrity of these systems depend on them.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so what are some other of the rules of life that, that, that people are probably unaware of?

[Sean B. Carroll]

Well, we've, we've hit, you know, three of the really big ones. But I think the most important rule, Mike, and probably the, the most important message I could deliver is that nature is incredibly resilient, that given a chance, given time and, and space and taking pressure off these places, they can rebound and they can rebound spectacularly. Populations can rebound. Species that have been pushed right to the brink of extinction can recover spectacularly. Habitats that look incredibly degraded can come roaring back. And they can come roaring back before our eyes. Not, you know, not in centuries, but I mean, in years to decades. And this resilience of Nature, it, I mean, just let's give it a minute to sort of, to sort of sink in then that I, I'll give some example, you know, fisheries which we pay close attention to for their commercial significance. A good number of fisheries in North America were, have been fished to a critical state. And then the fisheries regulators step in and morator are put up and many of those fisheries have rebounded and rebounded. Well, it, it just turns out that, that the oceans are incredibly productive, given a chance and populations will rebound. Species that are familiar to us, like the bald eagle people may know that in the 1960s because of widespread use of DDT, bald eagles and peregrine falcons were devastated. They had a lot of trouble with the viability of their chicks. So populations crashed. We were down to fewer than 500 mating pairs of bald eagles, you know, the national symbol by the late 60s. Today that numbers over 70,000 breeding pairs and the population's total population is even bigger than that. So the they, when we took the pressure off, when we took away ddt, which was compromising their ability to reproduce, the population came roaring back. And you can tell the same story of manatees in the waters off Florida, of grizzly bears in the Rockies, of sea otters on the Pacific coast. So individual species can come roaring back. And you know, we alligators, the American alligator people may not know. In the late 60s alligators were extremely threatened. And you know, goodness, go to Florida now and try not to see an alligator. You know, they're everywhere.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I like the way you have framed this as the rules of life. How we're all interconnected and intertwined and interdependent on each other. And it's not something I think most of us think about, but it's really fascinating to hear. I've been speaking with Sean B. Carroll. The name of his book is the Serengeti Rules, the Quest to Discover How Life Works and why It Matters. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Sean, this was really great. I appreciate you explaining all this.

[Sean B. Carroll]

Thanks Mike. It's always a pleasure.

[Mike Carruthers]

What's really important in keeping a relationship happy? Dr. Carl Pillemer decided to find out. For his book 30 Lessons for Loving, he asked 700 married people who had each been married an average of 43 years. And two answers emerged from his research. Number one, learn to talk to each other and talk a lot. Not necessarily in the touchy feely way, just talk. And secondly, think small. While we tend to focus on big problems and decisions in a relationship, it turns out that what makes a relationship work or not are the hundreds of little interactions that happen during the day. The trick is to make as many of those interactions positive. For example, be polite. Often we get comfortable in a relationship and we stop being polite to one another and pay compliments. Do little surprises for your partner. This pattern of doing small things every day is what keeps relationships alive. And that is something you should know. Our podcast is produced by Jeffrey Havison and Jennifer Brennan. Executive producer is Ken Williams. That's the end of this episode. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Amy Nicholson]

If you were caught up in the Barbenheimer frenzy, if you love ranking the Mission Impossible films, if you are just an all around movie fan, I have a podcast for you. Hello, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm a film critic who writes for the New York Times and I'm also the co host of Unspooled, the ultimate movie podcast. Each week, my co host Paul Scheer and I unspool famous films to see if they are truly all time classics. From the original 1984 Karate Kid to Children of Men to more recent pictures to Dune, yes to Citizen Kane. We cover it all. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brav Bros Voice]

Ladies and gentlemen, what are you doing? What do you mean? Just keep it simple. I'm making the promo. Just keep it simple.

[Mike Carruthers]

Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros. Two guys that talk about Bravo.

[Brav Bros Voice]

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav bro.

[Mike Carruthers]

No.

[Brav Bros Voice]

Ouch.

[Mike Carruthers]

Dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple.

[Brav Bros Voice]

I've seen promos on tv, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are gonna get tired of it already. We need some oomph.

[Mike Carruthers]

All right then, fine. Let's try to do it with your voice. Brav Bros, good job.