Robert Koplan (3:13)

Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and.

Mike Carruthers (3:16)

Practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi. And Welco. Welcome to our Christmas Day episode of Something youg Should Know. And we start today with this whole idea of Merry Christmas. Because when you think about it, we say Happy Thanksgiving, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Valentine's Day, but we say Merry Christmas. Why is that? Well, the first use of the term Merry Christmas goes back quite a ways. It seems to have started perhaps in the 1500s. It was also written in a letter by an English admiral in 1690. The same phrase Merry Christmas appears in the first Christmas card produced in England in the 1800s. Charles Dickens used it in his book A Christmas Carol in 1843. Ebenezer Scrooge says, if I could work my will, every idiot who goes about with Merry Christmas on his lips should be boiled with his own pudding. The phrase Merry Christmas caught on more in America than in Britain, perhaps because merry also means tipsy or drunk in Britain. There they say Happy Christmas, mostly in C. Clement Moore's book Twas the Night Before Christmas, written in 1823. It originally ended Happy Christmas to all and to all a good night, but was changed by the editors in later editions to Merry Christmas. And that is something you should know. The holidays are all about togetherness. For many of us, it's the one time of year we gather with friends and family. We rarely see otherwise. One of the things that makes this season feel so special is all those people. And we've talked plenty on this show about the importance of connecting with others. But some people feel over connected this time of year, like they barely get a moment to themselves. And, and that raises an interesting point. Solitude isn't a bad thing. In fact, spending time alone can be surprisingly good for you. My guest, Robert Koplan has spent more than 30 years studying the power of being alone. He's a psychologist, researcher and teacher and author of the book the Joy of How to Reconnect with Yourself in an over Connected World. He's here to explain why solitude matters and how to make it a healthy part of your life. Hi Robert. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

Robert Koplan (5:54)

Hi Mike. I'm so glad to be here.

Mike Carruthers (5:56)

So we have talked so many times, had so many guests on talking about the importance of social connection that having friends and family and being part of a social group is good for your mental health, it's good for your physical health, it's just a good thing. And you're talking about spending more time Alone that we need time alone. Is it your sense, sense that people are not getting enough alone time?

Robert Koplan (6:22)

Yeah, that's one of the issues that we've actually explored over the last two years because, I mean, historically we've been, and for good reason, really concerned about people who feel like they're getting too much solitude. Right. So that's what loneliness is. It's the feeling that you are not getting enough social connection. You're not getting enough social interaction. It's a discrepancy between your social life that you would like and this, you know, your perception of your actual social life. And when that's not living up to your social needs, you. So you feel lonely. And it's often equated to the feeling that you're getting too much solitude. And that's really important to study. Over the last few years, we've also studied their sort of new idea that maybe it's also possible to feel like you're not getting enough solitude. And so this is kind of like the mirror image of loneliness. And because that word didn't exist in the English language to even define that term, we made one up. We call it a loneliness. And that's the feeling that we are not getting enough time alone. It's a discrepancy between the quality and the quantity of the solitary time that we would like to have and what we are actually experiencing.

Mike Carruthers (7:22)

Well, how would you know? It would seem that you would know whether you feel like you're getting enough or not getting enough solitude, and that it would be easy to fix. Particularly if you needed more solitude, you would just close the door and lock it. And then people can't bother you.

Robert Koplan (7:42)

That's a fair response. But if you don't know that it's a thing, if you don't know that it's possible to feel more stressed or more anxious or more sad or more angry because you're not getting enough solitude. If you don't know that that's even a possibility, that it can impact you like that it can be difficult to actually understand why you're feeling stressed. And when we've interviewed people, that's a common thing that they said they would feel stressed, they'd feel anxious, they'd feel angry, and they just wouldn't know why. And when we did some experiments and we did some research on it, it turns out that feeling like you're not getting enough time alone can lead to exactly those feelings. It can make you feel sad, it can make you feel frustrated, it can make you feel angry, and just Giving a name to it and raising awareness at least allows for the possibility that people will say, oh, okay, so now I understand why I'm feeling so stressful and maybe I should just close the door and give myself a little bit of extra alone time each day.

Mike Carruthers (8:28)

You know, I wonder if you can experience both of these things at the same time, or almost at the same time where, you know, one moment you feel like you're just over connected and too many people need your attention. And other times maybe you feel really lonely.

Robert Koplan (8:43)

You're making a really insightful point because what we're talking about is a satisfaction with a very specific component of our life. So loneliness is a dissatisfaction with our social lives. And you said something that's very true. You can spend a lot of time with people but still feel lonely. Just imagine going to a party where you don't know a lot of people. You spend the evening standing off to the side watching everybody, apparently having a really nice time, having intimate conversations, laughing and sharing inside jokes. And you feel very disconnected from them, even though you're right among them. And you might leave feeling even more lonely than when you got there. You might spend the day at work surrounded by other employees, but not have a strong social connection with any of them and leave feeling more lonely than when you got there. So it's certainly possible to be among people and still sort of feel lonely. So you can be dissatisfied with that and feel like you're not getting enough good quality time with people. The same thing works with solitude. You can be spending some time alone, but it might be time spent when you're having to do chores that you don't want to do, or you're being forced into solitude because you've moved to a new place and you haven't made any new friends yet. Or you might spend your time in solitude worrying and, and you know, thinking bad thoughts. That's not a high quality solitary experience. And so you could have that time alone and still not feel very satisfied with it. And you could be so busy that you just don't have control over your schedule. So you don't have control over your social schedule, you don't have control over over your solitary schedule. And you can end up dissatisfied with all of it.

Mike Carruthers (10:09)

When you ask someone about the benefits of social connection and friendships and all that, they're quick to list many very good ones. What are the benefits of solitude other than it's quieter?

Robert Koplan (10:23)

Yeah, so I mean, a quieter is actually a pretty good place to start. The one word that I would use to Sort of as an umbrella term for all of the benefits of solitude. A lot of it has to do with freedom or different kinds of freedom. So for one thing, solitude provides freedom from. So when you're among other people, when you're outside in the world, it's noisy, it's busy, there's a lot of input into your senses. You have to watch how you behave, you have to watch what you say, you have to modulate your facial expressions and your posture. And you've got to pay attention to what other people are saying. And you're being bombarded with all these different kinds of sounds and input and it can really be exhausting. So for one thing, solitude is just a chance to catch your breath. It's freedom from that input. It's a chance for you to restore your battery. Right? Calm yourself down. Solitude is a place where you have the freedom to have a respite, let the edge off of your negative emotions. It's a place where you can be more likely to experience calm. So for one thing, it's just a break. And I think quiet is a pretty good way of summarizing one of the big advantages. So that's the sort of. The freedom from the other side of that is also. It's a freedom too. So solitude is a place where you have privacy, where you have control and autonomy over what you get to do. You choose to be you, you act as you choose, you can do the activities that you choose. And there is an empowerment that comes with being able to, you know, make your own choices and do your own things. And it becomes a place where you can engage in self exploration and a chance where you can reflect and grow. And I also like to think of solitude as an incubator for creativity and problem solving.

Mike Carruthers (11:53)

Well, it seems like everybody decides for themselves whether or not they have enough solitude or too much solitude and adjust accordingly. I mean, who else could decide that the amount of solitude I may need may not be the same as you?

Robert Koplan (12:09)

Oh, that's an extremely important point. And here I talk about something that's called the Goldilocks effect. Okay, so this is straight out of the fairy tale, right? So we all know the fairy tale of Goldilocks and the three bears. And she's in the house and she's trying the three bowls of porridge. And one is too hot and one is too cold. And then she finds the one that's just right, but it's just right for her. And that's what we think is going on with solitude and with socializing. So for each person there's a just right amount of time alone and the just right amount of socializing that's going to be sort of maximal for optimizing your own well being. But the thing is it's different for everyone. And so everyone needs to almost do like a little experiment. And what I suggest to people is keep a diary for a week or two. Well, you just record how much time you spent alone each day and how much time you spend with other people each day and record how you're feeling at the end of the day and then just start looking for patterns and make some small adjustments and how much time you're spending with others, how much time you're spending alone if you can. And see how that impacts upon your mood. Because you're right, it's only you individually who can say this is the right amount of alone time for me, this is the right amount of solitary time for me. And finding that balance, that's what's going to help you do the best. That's what's going to make you feel the best. And that's why I'm always very suspicious when people make strong prescriptive statements like everyone should spend six hours a day socializing and take a two hour walk in the woods and then they will be happy. It just doesn't work that way because it's different for everyone and that's okay.

Mike Carruthers (13:33)

It just seems though, I mean, for people who need more time with others, people who don't have a lot of social connection, that seems to get. That seems very difficult because you've got to coordinate your schedule with other people. You've gotta find some time and something to do that you both like and blah, blah, blah. Solitude seems to be pretty easy to call up and put into your life because you're just closing the door and keeping other people out. It doesn't seem as effortful. I mean, I can't even imagine it's as effortful to have solitude as it is to have social connection.

Robert Koplan (14:14)

I wonder if you might say that to a parent of three young children. There are certainly lots of people who are in situations where there are huge demands on their time and they are at work all day and then they come home at the end of the day after being around people all day and they have a family to take care of and they are with a romantic partner and they may find it almost impossible to get a moment by themselves. Certainly parents of young children are among the group that tell us that they miss time alone the most. And one of the things that I think we should try to normalize is asking for that time alone. There's a lot of social pressures, particularly in western, you know, North American society, to socialize. And that's a good thing. As I always say, you know, it is good to socialize and it is good to spend time with other people. It helps us, it makes us feel better. But sometimes it's also good to spend time for yourself. And although some people might be in a situation where they can coordinate their schedules and plan in those solitary activities, which I think is a wonderful thing to do, not everybody's schedule is as flexible or has that kind of openness that allows them to do exactly what you're suggesting, which is just go in and close the door. If a mother of three young children goes in and closes the door to her bedroom, two minutes later they're all going to be knocking.

Mike Carruthers (15:23)

Well, yeah, yeah, I'll give you that. I'll give you that. I'm speaking with psychologist Robert Koplan. He is author of the book the Joy of How to Reconnect with Yourself in an over Connected World. It's a busy time, cold weather, holiday plans. It's the time of year when I just want my wardrobe to work without any effort. Which is why I've been all about quints. They make it easy to look sharp, feel good and find gifts that actually last. Everything they sell is made from premium materials, built to hold up and priced without the luxury markup. Quince makes the essentials everyone needs. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters, of which I have more than one, are just 50 bucks and honestly they feel like something triple the price. Their Italian wool coats look and feel designer and their outerwear lineup is really solid down jackets, wool top coats and even leather styles that are made to last season after season. Everything at Quint's is made from premium materials in ethical, highly trusted factories. And because quince cuts out the middlemen, you get the same quality as luxury brands at a fraction of the cost. Seems like everyone I know is now shopping at Quint's. You should probably too get your wardrobe sorted and your gift list handled with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quints.com sysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day return. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c-e.com sysk free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com sysk you know, I've been using AG1 for several weeks now and what I really like is how simple it makes things. I mean, I'm not good at complicated morning routines and AG1, it's just simple and consistent. AG1 is the daily health drink that combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants all in one scoop. And I love that because I don't want a handful of pills in the morning. Nope, one scoop. Shake it up. Done. My routine is simple. I take it first thing in the morning, usually while I'm making coffee. And I can feel good knowing I'm giving my body real support. And I do notice steady, consistent energy throughout the day. And my digestion feels great. And I really appreciate knowing that it's helping fill in those nutrient gaps that tend to happen when life gets busy. Now, I've been trying the different flavors. Original and citrus are my favorite so far. And it's actually something I look forward to in the morning. And this time of year when routines tend to fall apart, AG1 is the thing that keeps me consistent. AG1 has their best offer ever. If you head to drinkag1.com something you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3 and K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and you'll get to try their new sleep supplement, AGZ for free, which has been a game changer for my nightly routine. That's drinkag1.com something for $126 in free gifts for new subscribers. So, Robert, when you look at people who do this well, who do solitude, right? And I know everyone's different, but what is it they typically do? I mean, with their time, with their solitude. They don't just sit in a room in the dark and do nothing. Or maybe they sit and watch Netflix and binge Netflix for a couple of hours. Is that a good use of your solitude?

Robert Koplan (19:21)

I mean, the short answer to that is yes. So I think there's a lot of myths about solitude. One of them is that you need a two hour walk in the woods for it to reap any benefits. And that's simply not true. Although a two hour walk in the woods can be certainly wonderful for some people. There's research that suggests that even 15 minutes a day is a reasonable amount of time for some people to spend alone. And they see concrete benefits for doing that. For some people, they might not even find that easy. They might have to start even smaller. And I like to say you need to, you know, just like you're training for a race, right? You don't run the whole Marathon on the first time, you have to kind of build up your solitude muscles, build up your capacity for solitude and increase that time a little bit each day so you can plan it in and make it part of your regular routine. But you were touching on sort of what you do when you're alone. And again, I think there's this myth that in order to gain benefits from solitude, you need to, you know, put out a yoga mat and fold your legs and meditate for two hours. And again, meditation is great and has lots of benefits for our health and for our well being. But that's not the only thing that you can do when you're alone in order to get some of these solitary benefits. It turns out if you're engaging in an activity that you personally find meaningful, enjoyable, engaging, it keeps your attention, it keeps your interest, then that is just as beneficial as perhaps even sitting and meditating for that time. The key is to find an activity that's personally interesting for you and that works for you. It's again, it's that same kind of personalization that I was talking about in terms of how much time you spend alone. Also, what you do with your solitary time is very much a personalized choice. And that's also okay. I guess the one caveat I would say on that is maybe don't use your solitary time to FaceTime with friends because then you're kind of, I would call that social washing your solitary time because you're using it still to communicate with other people and that's not really solitude. And also maybe just don't scroll through social media because we know that doesn't make anybody happy on the enders under any circumstances.

Mike Carruthers (21:09)

Well, I can imagine that people get this idea that it's a waste of time. Being alone and doing basically whatever you want is wasting your time. And then you feel guilty because you're just wasting your time. Rather than being out there with people doing productive things.

Robert Koplan (21:29)

Some people do very productive things when they're alone. Alone is, you know, solitude is a place where you can, you know, be directly focused and engaged and get lots of important tasks done. But it doesn't have to be only for that. And it's perfectly okay to have some downtime, to have some leisure time. And in fact, and I think we should be getting the message out about this, even sort of, you know, shouting more loudly from the top of buildings that it's okay to take a little bit of me time, it's okay to take a little time for yourself and the experience of just having that downtime, doing something that's just enjoyable or that's relaxing for you, it pays off. It makes you more productive when you are, you know, back to work. It makes you more sociable and enjoy your social interactions more when you are back to with people. There's now good research suggesting that going back and forth, alternating between periods of solitude and periods of socializing, that is the optimal combination for making us feel happy for, you know, raising our feelings of well being. It's the best way to do creative brainstorming. You brainstorm in a group and then you go off and think by yourself and you go back to the group and it actually makes you feel better about your later social interactions. So if you have, you know, a romantic partner who you want to say sometimes to, you know, I love you, but I need to spend a few, you know, some time by myself right now. It's not because we have a bad relationship. It's not because, you know there's a problem, but you can actually tell them. Now. Research suggests if you let me spend a little bit time by myself, it's going to pay off for both of us because we're going to have more positive interactions. It's going to help our relationship later.

Mike Carruthers (22:52)

Is the amount of solitude. Basically, it's just up to you. I mean, if you. But can you ever have too much or as long as it feels right, it's right.

Robert Koplan (23:04)

Yes.

Mike Carruthers (23:05)

No.

Robert Koplan (23:05)

I agree that we should be putting limits both on socializing and on solitude, right? So for some people, especially if you are extremely extroverted, you're a social butterfly, you always want to be around people. You will go out of your way to avoid any time by yourself. And that's when I think people could use a little push to spend a little bit of extra time alone, even if they don't think they're going to enjoy it. We tend to be pretty poor predictors of how we're going to enjoy social and solitary experiences. So my advice for extroverts and sociable people who really spend most of their time and enjoy being with other people, that's great and please go and do that. But also give yourself a little bit of a push to spend time by yourself and build up those solitude muscles. And then you have some people who really do enjoy spending that time alone, right? They enjoy the quiet time, they enjoy doing their own things, and maybe they're less comfortable when they're with other people. And for people like that, I would say give yourself a little bit of a push to go interact with Other people, you might not think that you're going to enjoy it, but it turns out even for people who are introverted and socially anxious and feel nervous about interacting even with strangers, even a short interaction with a stranger raises our mood and makes us feel better. So I think all of us could probably use a slight push in one direction or the other.

Mike Carruthers (24:14)

But do you think that people who don't have enough solitude, like the mother with three kids knows it, or are there people who don't have enough solitude but are completely oblivious to that idea that they. No, I have plenty of time alone. I'm fine.

Robert Koplan (24:32)

Yeah, I mean, I like to hope that over the last few years, we've tried to sort of popularize the idea that it could be a problem to not get enough time alone. Some really interesting research suggests that when you are feeling like you want more alone time, you tend to blame the people around you. So when members of one member of a romantic couple feels like they are alonely that they don't have enough alone time, it makes them more angry at their romantic partner. And when a manager at work is feeling like they're overwhelmed and not having a moment to themselves, they tend to have more harsh interactions with their employees. So it certainly comes out in maybe even unexpected ways. And so I think it is really, it's almost like a public service announcement to make sure that people understand that this is a thing. If you don't get enough time alone for you, whatever that means, Whether it's your 15 minutes or your four hours per day, or however much it is, if that's not enough for you, if your need for solitude is not satisfied, it's likely to make you feel stressed, it's likely to make you feel sad or angry. And the only way that you'll be able to reduce those feelings is by giving yourself that sort of timeout.

Mike Carruthers (25:37)

But are those feelings the test? In other words, if you feel fine about your alone time, you're fine about your alone time.

Robert Koplan (25:46)

I think that's pretty reasonable. So, I mean, again, you know, most people are going to fall somewhere in the middle, right? So some people are, you know, huge extroverts on, you know, way on one end of the scale, and others are huge solitude levels way on the other end of the scale. But most people fall somewhere in the middle, which means that we're all going to find, you know, a relative equilibrium, a relative balance between socializing and solitude, and that's just fine. And if you're feeling generally okay about it, then you're actually probably in the minority, we've done quite a few studies where we've just tried to get people satisfaction with their solitude and satisfaction with their social times. And people are stressed. And when you're stressed, it means you don't feel like your time is your own and you can't control those circumstances. And we found that only about 20% of people are satisfied with the amount of time they get alone and the amount of time that they get with others.

Mike Carruthers (26:35)

Well, it's interesting that there is, I guess, kind of a negative connotation. Like, you know, when kids are sent to their room, it's because they've been bad. So they, they get a timeout, like being alone, that's a punishment. And you know, I don't, I don't want that.

Robert Koplan (26:51)

No, you're absolutely right. And I think we can try to change the script on that a little bit and think again about solitude. As you know, solitude is often thought of as an empty place, right? A place where there's nothing to do and you know, it's all that's there is rumination and loneliness and anxiety. But solitude can be a full place. It could be a place that you can fill with what you choose to put there. And when you choose to go there, when you choose to go to that place and do things that you want to do, that you have the autonomy, the control to do it can really help you grow and help you understand yourself and make you understand yourself better. Helps you understand others better and like I said, ultimately improves your relationships with others.

Mike Carruthers (27:31)

So it's clearly a balance. You need both time alone, time with other people. Yet mostly you hear about the need for connection. You don't hear a lot about the need for solitude, but clearly it's an important topic. I've been speaking with Robert Kaplan. He is a psychologist who has spent 30 years studying the power of. Of solitude. He is author of a book called the Joy of How to Reconnect with Yourself in an over Connected World. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Robert, thank you so much for being here.

Robert Koplan (28:02)

Okay, thanks so much, Mike. I hope that was okay.

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Mike Carruthers (30:25)

Since we're publishing this episode on Christmas, it seems only right to wrap things up with one last Christmas segment and this time about Santa Claus himself and not the Hallmark version. My guest, Joe Beale is founder and CEO of Microcosm Publishing and he has researched and written a book called A People's Guide to Santa the Secret History of Christmas. From St. Nick to Krampus and Yule, he's dug into some surprising, sometimes wild backstories of Santa and he's here to share what he found. Hi Joe, welcome to something you should know.

Joe Beale (31:01)

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Mike Carruthers (31:02)

Sure. So I know around the world there are variations of the story about Santa Claus and Saint Nicholas and who he is and where he came from. But is it that they all have a similar theme? They all kind of. It's somewhat similar or not.

Joe Beale (31:18)

There's some similarity. I mean, and that's a good way of Putting it that there's not a lot of uniformity. I mean, in some cultures, Santa Claus is more of a punishing character where you're scared into submission and great behavior. And then in other, you know, in other cultures, you're rewarded into good behavior. And. And so I think that's probably the biggest fundamental difference. But then in. In many cultures, Santa Claus is really like a mischievous figure. That's where it gets you because, you know, in, say, Iceland or a lot of parts of Eastern Europe to this day, you know, there's really a deeply held belief that, you know, Santa Claus is really there to make trouble and has a whole cast of characters that assist him with that.

Mike Carruthers (32:17)

And so who is Santa?

Joe Beale (32:21)

Well, and again, this is another hotly disputed item because in, you know, in the original, Santa Claus was Saint Nick, one of many Saint Nick's in, you know, Roman Christianity. But again, this is somebody that was never known to exist or there was. There's no written record of him existing during his lifetime. Nobody began writing about him until 400 years after he would have lived. So he would have lived towards the end of the third century, you know, after Christ. But, you know, that's further complicated because, you know, Rome had occupied the region at the time, so they weren't keeping a lot of birth records about, you know, Christian bishops, which. He was one. He was a very young bishop. Allegedly, in the folklore, he had been captured from his. You know, he was from an area called Myra, and he was put in a Roman prison for a very long time. Again, without records, we don't know exactly how long. But when he was released and went back home, you know, he's like the bishop going back to where he came from, where he ostensibly rules to a certain degree. He came back to find out that he. Everybody was telling him that the story was that he had died. And so it was his bravery of surviving a Roman prison that became, you know, so storied that they. They put him up for sainthood as, you know, partly as a result of that. But then, like every Santos story, rumors began spiraling outward. Stories became increasingly exaggerated. And that's sort of where we don't know the length of St. Nick's limit of his miracles.

Mike Carruthers (34:23)

So we don't really know much of what happened there. But there was a guy, there really was a St. Nicholas.

Joe Beale (34:31)

Well, again, this is hotly disputed, whether or not he actually ever existed, whether there was a real person or whether this was another figure that was held up to fulfill the character. Because again, these type of stories predated the existence of the real person depending on which culture you're drawing from. And so the Christians began using St. Nick as a way of present gift giving obedient children. You could spend weeks of your life reading our various accounts, proving and disproving that he ever lived.

Mike Carruthers (35:17)

But throughout time, though, the story has persisted in various versions whose propping up the story. Why is this story so important that it continues to live on and grow and change? But why?

Joe Beale (35:34)

It's like many, many other things. It's like the way Bigfoot has carried on in mythology for over 100 years. You really kind of can't answer it other than it fascinates the imagination of the people that want to tell that story. And in a lot of cases and in a lot of cultures, there's sort of an agenda around that, you know. So during the Cold War, it was a way to shift Christmas to being against. You know, at one time we used to import a lot of presents from Germany, So World War II to the relationship with the United States. There was quite a negative impact on that because we suddenly didn't want to be, you know, sending all, all of our economic might into a country that, you know, we were at war with. And so after World War II, we shifted Christmas from focusing on adults basically having a party to the modern, what I would call the Coca Cola version of Christmas, which is the bright red suit, you know, the, the presents, the tree, the chimney, the, you know, parts of the story that had always been there but were gave given additional weight in, you know, about 1950 and then, you know, the beginning of, you know, maybe not the beginning, like Santa had been a presence in malls before that, but it became, you know, more. Less about things like the nutcracker or the Little Drummer Boy and more about, say, like, we have this rit on Christmas morning with our family.

Mike Carruthers (37:14)

So the ritual on Christmas morning about the family has been going on for how long?

Joe Beale (37:21)

Well, in the United States, like, that became pretty normal around, you know, in New England, it would date into the 1800s, and in the widespread United States into the, you know, about 1920, that became pretty normal. And so, you know, I mean, and this is really not that long ago, all told. And one of the more fascinating aspects for me was talking to people about what their family of origin did to celebrate Christmas. But really, Christmas was supposed to always be about spending time together. And then it didn't really see the modern commercialization until about that point in 1950, where it became a point of like, we're going to go downtown and look in the windows in all the malls. And that was sort of a shift in another sense of how the family interfaced with it.

Mike Carruthers (38:18)

And the shift happened basically because we didn't want to continue the relationship with Germany that.

Joe Beale (38:28)

And during the Cold War, we didn't want to have that sort of relationship with the Soviet Union, who, interestingly, they did not have Christmas in the earlier parts of the Soviet Union, but then they did add it later because I think it's hard to market against, you know, something like getting presents and having time with your family. It's hard to otherize that as an American tradition because really, it's a pretty wholesome thing. But so, because, you know, America had a large economic boom after World War II, so we had a lot of money going into our economy, and then there had been a lot of wartime rationing. So I think part of it was like, we can relax. We can, you know, really celebrate this newfound wealth. We can, you know, get gifts for everybody. And, you know, this is kind of where we arrived at today. And then things like, you know, Coca Cola running a marketing campaign and creating the modern character alongside, you know, based on. There were illustrations in Harper's Magazine, you know, about 70 years before that, you know, in the late 1890s, where they essentially took aspects of this character and modernized it. We know we don't know if the real Saint Nick ever lived, but we do know that the modern version of Santa Claus is, I'd say, broadly agreed upon. But all of these things, it's. It's like saying that Santa is real or fake. It's only as real or fake as, say, something like currency money. It's as real as the stock we put in it and the amount of belief and what we get out of it.

Mike Carruthers (40:19)

Has Christmas always been tied to the birth of Christ?

Joe Beale (40:24)

No. And again, that's another one that didn't really get unified until about 1500, where they really put that all together, because, as you may know, the birth of Christ, that's hotly debated exactly when that was to this day. And we. We know that that did not happen on Christmas. I mean, anywhere from, you know, there was a period in time where we were pretty Convinced it was January 6th, you know, through research. But there's plenty of people that will contend for the summer. There's plenty of people that say there's no way it possibly happened in the winter. But the one thing that we have definitively ruled out is December 25th. But again, a lot of that, the. The coagulation of Christmas the birth of Christ, giving presents. A lot of that was to stamp out the pagan traditions and the way that different people celebrated the changing of the seasons. Once the Christian culture became the dominant culture, it was a way to sort of overwrite all of those and to really, like, cement their place on ruling the calendar.

Mike Carruthers (41:43)

So a lot of what we've talked about, I mean, some of it is shrouded in mystery. We don't really know. It depends on who you talk to. It's not clear. But what is clear. When you did the research for this, what did you find that you can point to and say, you know, this is really interesting.

Joe Beale (42:01)

You know, I think the thing that was really, really fascinating was the way that culture interfaced with Santa Claus. So, for example, you know, there's lots of studies about how families wanted to see Santa in themselves. So when the white flight occurred to the suburbs, downtown Santa Claus, you know, places that you're like a downtown mall, they began having black Santas. And that was really fascinating because through that we got a lot of data at looking at, you know, how affirming it is to see a reflection of oneself in a figure, you know, when. If you grow up. And I think this is true. You know, we do know that if St. Nick grew up in what is now Turkey, he would have been of a very dark complexion, if not black, you know, and so looking at it that way, everybody, when they create their modern version of Santa, it looks like what a person would look like in their culture. And so I think that is another fascinating aspect of how Santa becomes essentially a mirror of how we see our idealized self.

Mike Carruthers (43:28)

What about some of the other peripheral characters in the story, you know, Mrs. Claus, the elves, who. Where that all come from?

Joe Beale (43:37)

So that's a lot of that is a simplified version of other cultures. In Romania, I believe, is where the story of Santa having henchmen originated. And then a lot of various Nordic cultures as well, they would have their own versions of that. And I don't know, it's very unclear when, at which point we, you know, Santa relocated to the North Pole. That's. That's something that, you know, really probably was codified around 1950 in the United States. But originally those characters were deeply mischievous. Even Mrs. Claus was originally a scarier version of Santa Claus in where Santa was the one that would bring you gifts, and Mrs. Claus would be someone that would maybe berate you for being a misbehaved child. But I think that doesn't really fit well with the modern idea of, you know, how the holiday works. So it became that Mrs. Claus took sort of a back seat to, you know, maybe she's, like, taking care of Santa's business, making him cookies, you know, being cheery. And the elves shifted from people that were mischievous to also being in sort of an assistant role. And similarly, you know, the modernized reindeer, the sleigh, all that was, you know, taken from Nordic cultures and made into the version that, you know, essentially would be codified through cartoons.

Mike Carruthers (45:31)

So talk about the presence. And, you know, we put presents under the tree, but why do we do that? What's the story there?

Joe Beale (45:38)

The presents are more interesting. So. And this can be directly tied to the mythology of St. Nick, if he really existed. So there was. After St. Nick escaped from or was released from the Roman prison and came back to Mira, there were three children that were facing destitution. And so he took gold coins and he slipped them in through their windowsill. And, you know, essentially so that the family would be able to survive outside of poverty. And this story was so inspiring to people in that region, you know, what would today be Turkey, that they began celebrating, you know, incorporating presents into the season. And, you know, it doesn't entirely fit the tradition because, you know, he's helping out somebody that is ostensibly a stranger who is in need. But people took it initially as that you would just sort of give presents to everybody, and then that shifted more and more into the nuclear family that you would give presents to people that you were related to. And then, you know, and then that was able to blossom over hundreds of years.

Mike Carruthers (46:59)

Well, you had said that there were big moments in, like, the early 50s, World War II, maybe the 20s. Some things started. What was Christmas like before that? Because that's not that long ago. So go back, like, 150 years. Do we know what Christmas looked like then?

Joe Beale (47:17)

Right. So there was a point in time where the Christians actually tried to stomp out Christmas as unrelated to the faith. And so, again, much like the Soviets, this was fairly difficult because, you know, people really liked it. It was a fun holiday. And so the, you know, from what we know, you know, it was. We would have people gather and, you know, similarly to how pagans celebrated the changing of seasons and, you know, the lengthening and shortening of the year or of the daylight during the calendar year. Christmas was part of that where people would, you know, gather in their homes. They would have public celebrations. They would have, you know, different ways of essentially celebrating usually, you know, and they would, you know, they would have feasts and things like that. Which I guess that's a part of the tradition that has been upheld.

Mike Carruthers (48:25)

So what else about Christmas or Santa did you uncover that I might not know? That would be fascinating to know Christmas.

Joe Beale (48:33)

Was connected to children in the first place because Saint Nick, and this is again, a non verifiable story, but this is the version of the story that is shared. Went into a pub one day and he found. Well, he just knew. They don't really explain how he had this information, but that there were three children being pickled in the bar by the barkeep and he reincarnated the children. Again, this is one of his many miracles. And this is how he was thought of as the patron saint of children at that time. And this, again, just. I think it just captured imaginations, you know, not because of how many details are incomplete in this story, but because of the idea that he was thought to care about children so much that he went out of his way to, you know, rescue three kids that he didn't even know. And, you know, and this is at a time when life expectancy is not what it is today. And, you know, and so I think those are the kinds of stories about Christmas and about Santa and about St. Nick that to really hold onto is like, how do you live your values and, you know, sort of who do you want to be? And are these traditions helping you to be more of that person?

Mike Carruthers (50:02)

Well, great. Perfect way to wrap up our final discussion about Christmas. This year. I've been talking to Joe Beale. He is author of the book called A People's Guide to Santa, the Secret History of Christmas from Saint Nick to Krampus and Yule. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Hey, Joe, Merry Christmas, and thanks so much.

Joe Beale (50:22)

Wonderful. Thank you so much.

Mike Carruthers (50:27)

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