The Healing Effects of Music & Understanding Adolescence

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Healing Effects of Music & Understanding Adolescence"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Something You Should Know
• Host: Mike Carruthers | OmniCast Media
• Episode: The Healing Effects of Music & Understanding Adolescence
• Release Date: July 7, 2025

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1. The Importance of Friendship

Mike Carruthers opens the episode by emphasizing the critical role of friendship in both children and adults' lives. He shares compelling research findings that highlight how friendships influence our perceptions, longevity, attractiveness, and even our genetic makeup.

• Perception of Challenges: In the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, a study found that participants perceived a hill as less steep when accompanied by a friend compared to being alone. Moreover, the longer the friendship, the less daunting the challenge felt.

• Longevity Benefits: Research from Brigham Young University analyzed data from nearly 150 studies, revealing that weak social circles can negatively impact longevity, with effects comparable to smoking a pack of cigarettes daily.

• Attractiveness Boost: A study involving 139 college students demonstrated that individuals are perceived as more attractive when part of a group compared to their individual portrayal. Specifically, individual photos were rated 5.5% less attractive than group photos.

• Genetic Connections: Collaborations between Yale University and the University of California, San Diego uncovered that close friends share about 1% of their DNA, making them genetically as close as fourth cousins. This shared genetics may underpin the chemistry that draws friends together.

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2. The Healing Power of Music

Guest: Stefan Kolsch, Neuroscientist and Music Psychologist
Credentials: Professor at the University of Bergen, Norway; Author of Good: Unlocking the Healing Power of Music
Timestamps: [01:47] – [29:21]

Mike engages in an in-depth conversation with Stefan Kolsch about the profound impact music has on our brain and overall well-being.

• Emotional and Cognitive Effects: Stefan explains that music isn't merely for enjoyment; it actively shapes our emotions, memories, and social relationships. He states, “Music can help with depression, dementia, and Parkinson's disease” ([07:30]).

• Universality of Music: Highlighting music's presence in every known culture, Stefan asserts, “Every culture that we know about has music and dance” ([08:07]). This universality points to music's deep evolutionary roots and its integral role in human society.

• Neurological Impact: Music engages nearly the entire brain, including the brainstem, which Stefan refers to as the "vitalization system." This system directly influences our emotions and physiological responses, such as heartbeat and breathing. He notes, “Music can encourage us or help us relax by directly affecting our organs” ([09:38]).

• Types of Music and Emotional Responses: While certain emotional expressions in Western music (e.g., happy or sad melodies) are universally recognized, Stefan emphasizes that individual preferences play a significant role in how music affects us. He states, “If you like this music, that's between you and your music” ([10:59]).

• Active vs. Passive Engagement: Stefan discusses the benefits of actively participating in music-making (e.g., singing in a choir) versus passive listening. Active engagement not only regulates emotions but also strengthens social bonds and can counteract neurodegeneration. He explains, “Singing together activates the happiness system in the brain that counteracts neurodegeneration” ([26:29]).

• Practical Applications: To harness music's healing power, Stefan suggests actively engaging with it—tapping along, breathing with the rhythm, or singing. He advises, “Don’t just let the music run in the background, but somehow actively engage with the music” ([27:38]).

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3. Understanding Adolescence

Guest: Matt Richtel, Health and Science Reporter at The New York Times
Credentials: Author of How We Grow: Understanding Adolescence
Timestamps: [31:20] – [52:56]

Mike transitions to discussing adolescence, a critical and often tumultuous period in an individual's life, with Matt Richtel.

• Defining Adolescence: Matt describes adolescence as a "process of integration between the known and the unknown," where teenagers reconcile parental teachings with their personal experiences. He remarks, “Adolescents are reconciling what they've been told and what they are actually experiencing” ([33:08]).

• Biological and Social Dynamics: Adolescence is characterized by heightened sensitivity and a reprogrammed brain that seeks rewards while sometimes ignoring risks. Matt explains, “Adolescents are tuned into reward, and they're tuned away from their families, into their peer groups” ([35:52]).

• Impact of Early Puberty: The onset of puberty has decreased to around 12 years old, leading to earlier sensitivity to environmental changes. Matt highlights, “There's a neurological mismatch for people who hit puberty earlier... highly sensitive to a fast-changing environment” ([49:48]).

• Behavioral Misconceptions: Many behaviors perceived as rebellious or troubled are, in reality, essential for adolescents to test boundaries and understand their place in the world. Matt emphasizes, “Testing is essential for the survival of the individual and the species” ([33:48]).

• Parental Guidance: Matt advises parents to recognize the exploratory nature of adolescence and to set clear boundaries around critical issues, differentiating between harmful experimentation and natural self-discovery. He states, “It's not a rejection of the parents as much as an effort to understand if what the parents are saying really works in the real world” ([45:07]).

• Long-Term Effects: While adolescence is formative—with experiences in this period shaping long-term preferences and behaviors—Matt reassures that most adolescent struggles fade into adulthood. He notes, “The fixation put on them is in the period of adolescence can even be a kind of manifestation of the anxiety” ([42:09]).

• Modern Challenges: The rapid influx of information and societal changes today add pressure on adolescents, making the period potentially more sensitive. Matt concludes, “They are highly sensitive to a fast-changing environment” ([51:00]).

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4. The Influence of Environment on Food Perception (Gastrophysics)

Towards the end of the episode, Mike explores how environmental factors significantly influence our perception and enjoyment of food.

• Gastrophysics Defined: Dr. Charles Spence of Oxford coined the term "gastrophysics" to describe this emerging science. It examines how elements like music, lighting, and plate design affect our dining experience.

• Key Findings:

  • Music and Lighting: In a large wine tasting study, identical wine tasted under different lighting and music conditions led to a 20% change in participants' responses regarding taste and enjoyment ([52:56]).
  • Menu Design: The number of options on a menu influences diners' satisfaction. For instance, having 7 starters and 10 main courses creates a balance, whereas fewer options may leave diners feeling shortchanged, and too many can be overwhelming.
  • Table Dynamics: Being the first to order can lead diners to choose what they instinctively prefer, enhancing their satisfaction.
  • Plate Color and Utensils: Red plates can decrease food intake as red is seen as a danger signal, making the food less appealing. Additionally, the weight of utensils affects perception—heavier silverware makes food seem more expensive compared to lighter forks.

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Notable Quotes

• Stefan Kolsch on Music's Power:
  “Music can help with depression, dementia, and Parkinson's disease” ([07:30])

• Matt Richtel on Adolescence:
  “Adolescents are reconciling what they've been told and what they are actually experiencing” ([33:08])

• Gastrophysics Insight:
  “Red plates cause you to eat less. Red is a primitive danger signal” ([54:56])

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Conclusion

In this insightful episode, Mike Carruthers delves into the profound effects of friendship, music, adolescence, and environmental factors on our lives. Through engaging discussions with experts like Stefan Kolsch and Matt Richtel, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how these elements shape our emotions, behaviors, and overall well-being. Whether it's leveraging music for healing, navigating the complexities of teenage years, or enhancing dining experiences through gastrophysics, "Something You Should Know" offers practical wisdom to enrich everyday life.

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For more information on the topics discussed, including links to Stefan Kolsch's book and Matt Richtel's publications, refer to the show notes attached to the episode.

Transcript

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know Some things about friendship I bet you never knew then the important role music plays in all of our lives.

[Stefan Kolsch]

What people often underestimate is that music is not just for our lives. It shapes our emotions, our memories, and even our social relationships. One of the most surprising findings is just how deeply music affects the brain.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also the surprising things that impact how much you like the food you eat and what goes on in the adolescent brain and why being a teen can be so tough.

[Matt Richtel]

The age of puberty has fallen. Now it's about 12 years old. Why is that important? When puberty hits, the brain courses with hormones that sensitize us to the world around us. You've now got a sensitive adolescent at a younger age.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Matt Richtel]

Something you should know Fascinating intel, the.

[Mike Carruthers]

World'S top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers we all know friendship is important, and we're going to start this episode with some interesting facts that really drive that point home. Hi and welcome to Something you should know. Friends are important for kids and adults, and here are some facts you may not know about friendship. Friends make hills seem less steep, and not just in a metaphorical sense. In a fascinating study published in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, participants estimated that a hill was less steep when they were accompanied by a friend than than when they were alone. And what's more is the longer the friends knew each other, the less steep the hill seemed. Friends help you live longer. Brigham Young University analyzed data from nearly 150 studies of social relationships and mortality and uncovered a startling statistic. A weak social circle can take a toll on your longevity, comparable to smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. Friends make you more attractive. When researchers asked 139 college students to rank the general attractiveness of people in a group photo and then ranked them by their individual photo, the individual photos were ranked 5.5% less attractive. And friends share DNA. A study suggests that close friends share about 1% of their DNA, making them as close genetically as fourth cousins. Researchers from Yale University and the University of California at San Diego analyzed data from nearly 2,000 people and found that the chemistry that draws friends together may stem from that shared DNA. And that is something you should know everyone enjoys music. I think, although we don't all like the same music, everyone likes some kind of music and we know it has an effect on us. And how music affects different people is something science is learning more and more about. Music can help with depression, dementia and Parkinson's disease. Stefan Kolsch is someone at the forefront of the research on the effects of music. Stefan is a leading neuroscientist and music psychologist. He's held positions at Harvard University and is currently a professor at the University of Bergen in Norway. He's author of a book called Good Unlocking the Healing Power of Music. Hi Stefan. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Hey Mike, it's great to be with you.

[Mike Carruthers]

So, as someone who likes music, I listen to music, I enjoy music, but I think of it as that, as enjoyment. But you study music as it relates to health. What is it that music does for people beyond being something to enjoy?

[Stefan Kolsch]

Yeah, I think music has remarkable power to change how we feel, think, and also heal. These things are linked with each other. And drawing on decades of neuroscience and psychology, we can now show how music engages the brain in unique ways. Regulating emotions, relieving pain, strengthening social bonds, and even supporting mental health and memory. And the best part is you do not have to be a musician to benefit. Music is already built into our brains. It's one of the most accessible tools we have for emotional well being.

[Mike Carruthers]

And music is universal, right? In this world, there are few places or no places you can go where there isn't some sort of music.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Every culture that we know about has music and dance. Not just language, but also music and dance. And that's why we assume that music is universal. Every culture has it throughout human history. And also it means that we all are musical, our brains are musical. It's tied into our evolutionary heritage as humans. That we understand music, that we participate in music, that we like music, and that we heal from music.

[Mike Carruthers]

I would imagine if you ask people how important music is, I don't think they would rank it really high because, you know, life has a whole lot of other things to think about and worry about. Music is nice to have, but the fact that what you just said, it's so universal that it perhaps is more important than we realize.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Yes, absolutely. What people often underestimate is that music is not just decoration for our lives. It shapes our emotions, our memories, and even our social relationships. One of the most surprising findings that I've made over the last decades is just how deeply music affects the brain, right down to the Brainstem, the oldest center of our brains, throughout the entire brain.

[Mike Carruthers]

And how does it do that?

[Stefan Kolsch]

Well, there are several emotion systems in the brain. The one in the brainstem I also call the vitalization system. The direct connection from the ear into the brain goes into that system. And this system can vitalize us. For example, music can encourage us. Many use music to motivate them in the morning to get up, or when they do sports. And on the other hand, we can also use music via the same system to relax, for example, when we want to calm down, meditate, sleep in the evening when we want to calm down our baby with a lullaby. And what's important about this system is that this system also has direct connections into all organs of our body. For example, our heart, our breathing, our digestion. And that's maybe one of the reasons why music can have these visceral effects on us. It can directly produce a sweat response, dilate our pupils, change our heartbeat, our breathing, and so forth.

[Mike Carruthers]

What about the different types of music? Can you say that different types of music elicit different responses? Or it's really, if you like this music, that's between you and your music, and that's great. But this other guy may not like that music. That's just not his cup of tea, and it doesn't do anything for him.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Absolutely. It's actually both. So, on the one hand, our Western music often expresses emotions like a voice. So, for example, when you hear my voice, you can hear whether I'm happy or sad, surprised, scared, and so forth. And music, especially Western music, often imitates these universal features of emotional expression of speech. For example, music can also sound sad or happy by the same acoustical characteristics that we use to code the same emotional expression in language. These features are universal, meaning that they are understood all around the globe. So, for example, when I go into, let's say, the Brazilian rainforest and meet a Yanomami man, he will hear in my voice whether I'm happy to see him or scared, just as he will see it in the expression of my face, for example. And we've done a similar study in Africa, where we played Western music that sounded happy or scary or sad to people who have never heard Western music before. And even they could recognize this music as, you know, happy or sad or scared. Not as well as the Western participants. But, of course, that was the first time that they heard this kind of music ever. So there are some universal features of emotional expression. But it's also important that music can elicit very diff. The same music can elicit very different emotional responses and different listeners, just as you said. And for the healing effects of music, it's important how the music affects you emotionally. So for example, if you like to listen to, let's say, heavy metal music because you find it motivating and encouraging, then that's the right music for you to get, for example, out of bed or use it during sports. If another person likes opera, then that kind of music is the right kind of music for that person. And maybe even the latter person says, well, this heavy metal music sounds scary and aggressive to me. And the heavy metal person says, well, this is not at all what I hear. To me it sounds very different.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what you said about playing western music to people who've never heard it before, how does it, how does Western music compare with other kinds of music? Don't other forms of music from other cultures, don't they have happy songs and sad songs like we do?

[Stefan Kolsch]

Not all cultures, Many cultures, but not all cultures. So for example, the African culture that I just spoke about, they only have happy music. For them, music is always something that is, let's say, played at festivities that children do when they have a great time. So the concept that music can express sadness was something completely new to them. We had to explain it to them. So that means that there are cultures who do not have this kind of emotional expression of different emotions with music like we have it in western music. If you think, for example, of the music that children do when they have their play songs and they are singing games also usually, you know, positive, joyful, and the phenomenon that music can express all these different kinds of emotions also surprise, curiosity, interest, suspense, tension, etc. Is something that developed only during the last recent, you know, few hundred years.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, since we're talking about sad songs under the umbrella of the healing power of music, you wonder, why have sad songs? Because sad songs make you feel sad, don't they? Or do they have another purpose?

[Stefan Kolsch]

There are many different purposes for sad music. So for example, let's say music would only produce one emotional expression. It would get kind of boring after a while. We like to be taken through these aesthetic trajectories through different emotions, emotional conflicts, resolutions of these conflicts, etc. So that can be one reason. Another reason is that many people use music, sad sounding music, for example, to vent after a breakup or something that frustrated them. They can use the music to just, you know, cry it all out. And after that they feel better. And then can they turn to more happy sounding music again? Especially people with higher scores on empathy, for example, like to do this. Also, sad music can resonate with us and we, you know, we can remember certain episodes of our own lives where we maybe felt sad. Sad music often sounds very beautiful. It can be very moving, it can be very touching. Also kinds of emotions that we like. Music that sounds sad to us might actually sound, let's say, peaceful to others. We did a study where we found that music that was rated as sad sounding by Western listeners was actually rated as peaceful sounding by many Asian listeners. And peaceful sounding music is something that we like to use to calm down, to relax. And individuals with tendency to depression, let alone individuals with depression, they also like to listen to sad music because they feel understood, it fits to their mood. They don't feel alone with their problems. And what these individuals often don't realize is that they actually pull themselves down with the sad sounding music. It's important that when we listen to music to influence our moods that sooner or later we listen to music that sounds like the mood that we want to get into and not just listen to the music that sounds like the mood that we are currently in. So for example, when we are in a depressive or sad mood, it's important to at least after a while, add songs to the playlist that sound like the mood that we want to get into. For example, more encouraged or happier or more positive.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're talking about the effects of music. Stefan Kolsch is my guest. He is a neuroscientist and author of the book Good Unlocking the Healing Power of Music. The Black Friday in July event from Dell Technologies is here. There's never been a better time to upgrade. Now's your chance for great offers on popular trusted technology. You'll also discover huge deals exciting new AI ready laptops and like the Dell 14 plus featuring Intel Core Ultra processors starting at $699.99. Don't forget to explore big savings on top electronics and accessories. Plus enjoy fast free shipping and other exclusive benefits like Dell Rewards Premium support and Dell care Premium, which provides 24.7support with no hidden fees or deductibles. Upgrade for a limited time [e-mail] deals. That's Dell.com deals. Have you ever had that experience? Well, everyone's had this experience. You buy some clothes online, they get delivered, you open it up and then there's that wave of disappointment. The quality's poor or it doesn't fit or the fabric's not what you thought. It's such a letdown. Well, that has Never happened. When I or my wife order clothes from Quince, Quince has the kind of stuff you'll actually wear on repeat, like breathable flow knit polos, crisp cotton shirts, and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for every occasion. And the best part, everything with Quints is half the cost of similar brands. You see, by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint's gives you luxury clothes without the markups. Now, since I started buying clothes from Quince, I really, I haven't bought clothes from anywhere else. And each time the clothes arrive, I'm always delighted and never disappointed. And you know something weird? When I tell people about how great Quince is and how I love buying clothes from them, I often hear back, oh, Quince. Yeah, I shop there. I love them. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.comsysk to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comsysk so Stefan, you said earlier, and I've heard it before, that every culture throughout history that anyone has ever found has had music. But I'm wondering, has there ever been a culture where they may have had music but it wasn't as important as it is, say, in our culture?

[Stefan Kolsch]

To my knowledge, this culture doesn't exist. Not every culture has, let's say, big orchestras, like, for example, you know, we have in our Western cultures or, you know, Indonesian cultures also have bigger orchestras and many other cultures too. But that doesn't necessarily say that other cultures who have, let's say, smaller ensembles who have more singing and drumming rather than, you know, dozens of different instruments, have less interest or less enjoyment in music. On the contrary, usually those are the cultures where everybody participates in making music, in singing, in dancing and stomping, and where the concept of being unmusical is not known. Again, when we went to Africa, to the Mafa tribe in northern Cameroon, the concept of musicians and non musicians was completely new to them. For them, music is something that, you know, you do that everybody does. The social scheme that we have, that if you perform for the many, was something that was very new to them.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is the experience of music different if you play an instrument versus you don't. You're just a listener.

[Stefan Kolsch]

For a classical musician, the experience certainly differs because often, depending on the school where they come from, they are not meant to feel too much emotion themselves during playing because they are supposed to deliver A good performance and one that stimulates emotions in the audience. But they are not supposed to get carried away. But of course, there are also other cultural contexts in which this can be very different. For example, in a club scene where everybody is dancing, cheering, singing along, it's about participating in the music, just like in a football stadium or at a happy birthday celebration. When we sing happy birthday, it's not about singing so the exact same note. It's about participation, it's about celebrating community and enjoying. So with regard to the healing effects, it can be tricky to explain that because we can use music, both music listening for healing purposes. And there are also some studies that say that making music can be important in certain circumstances. So, for example, of course, we can use music listening to regulate our emotions, our moods, to, let's say, switch off negative thoughts and negative thought loops. When you make music, however, there's a cascade of other additional processes in the brain that probably have additional effects. So, for example, studies with Parkinson patients who have difficulties walking show this curious phenomenon that they can dance to music. And this has been used for therapeutic purposes. For example, use playing music while walking, while taking a walk every day for, let's say, half an hour. And then even without music, they can actually walk better. They make faster strides and longer strides. So that is something where you already engage actively in the musical experience because you move to the music, you walk to the music. It's almost like a dance. Or we have an Alzheimer project where we have a memory choir for one year. Everybody participates, gets singing lessons every week, practices singing at home, the songs at home, we sing together several times every month. We do brain scans before and after to see whether this has an effect on the brain aging, on the brain degeneration. And we see that in person, certain parts of the brain, there is no significant decline anymore in the music singing group, whereas in the passive control group, there's significant decline of brain volume. So those are processes where I presume that active participation, active music making, active singing in this case, is crucial.

[Mike Carruthers]

And is there any explanation as to why that happens?

[Stefan Kolsch]

Yeah. So making social bonds while making music is something that engages what I call the happiness system in the brain. This is, by the way, also the system where Alzheimer's dementia actually starts, where the neurodegeneration starts. And this system, the so called hippocampal formation, has a stripe of neurons that can generate new stem cells, which can then counteract neurodegeneration, or which can counteract volume loss in this region due to the death of neurons for example, as a consequence of severe trauma, as a consequence of depression, as a consequence of chronic severe emotional stress. Now, we know from meta analyses, that is, analyses about dozens of studies, that music is particularly powerful in activating this region of the brain when we feel emotions with music, and probably even stronger when we experience these emotions together with others, as we do when we, for example, sing together. So our hypothesis is that singing together in, let's say, a social setting where you feel liked, you like the others, you have fun joining the choir, you have fun singing, bonds people together, and this results in activation of this happiness center in the brain that counteracts neurodegeneration.

[Mike Carruthers]

So performing music, as in singing together, has perhaps more effect than passively listening.

[Stefan Kolsch]

To music, I think, especially when it comes to activating this particular region of the brain. But let's not forget that even when we only listen to music, we often feel a connection to the musicians. We sometimes imagine as if we were part of, let's say, the band playing, or as if we were part of the audience that we might hear in the video or see in the video and hear in the recording. And that can already provide us with a kind of surrogate of a social experience. It's like our brain imagines that we were part of the community. And this can be powerful too. We know this from going to the cinema, where we know it's not real, but still we feel intense emotions.

[Mike Carruthers]

When it comes to the healing power of music, to try to activate all the forces, all the benefits that music can give, is there any prescription of, like, the best way to engage with it?

[Stefan Kolsch]

Well, I don't think there is a one fits all recipe for that. If you want to regulate your emotions with music, then don't just let the music run in the background, but somehow actively engage with the music. So, for example, you can tap along with the music, or you can breathe along with the music. You can count the beats of the music while you breathe in and out. I've done studies with depressive patients, for example, and when they use this method, then the negative thoughts and thought loops are gone. And that gives their brains at least a few minutes of chance to recovery. Like an emotional timeout where certain brain structures can start breathing again, especially those involved in emotions. Chronic stress and chronic negative emotions are particularly unhealthy for us. Many don't know this, but when you're stressed, your body increases production of stress hormones. And while short term stress can temporarily boost certain immune responses, chronic high stress reduces stress, the activity of immune cells. Chronic stress even can decrease the number and effectiveness of cells of the immune system, leaving us more vulnerable to viruses, other pathogens, etc. I'm just saying this to underscore that constant negative emotions and moods, depression, hostility, anxiety, worries, etc. Are actually bad for our health. So that's why it's important to regulate our emotions and moods.

[Mike Carruthers]

And we can do that with music. Well, this is great. Stephan Kolsch has been my guest. He is a neuroscientist and music psychologist and the name of his book is Good Unlocking the Healing Power of Music. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show Notes I know several people who sell stuff online. They have an online store, so I've heard the stories of how complicated it can get. But the people who use Shopify, they tell a different story. Shopify is the e commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. In fact, 10% of all E commerce in the US is handled by Shopify. From household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting off the ground, Shopify is so popular because they have already dealt with or anticipated any question or potential issue you could have. Like their intuitive design studio with hundreds of ready to use templates to build you a beautiful online store. And Shopify has these great AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography. All the things that would take you a ton of time. And of course you've got to get customers to your store. So Shopify makes it easy to create email, marketing and social media campaigns to bring you new customers. And they can help with things like managing inventory, international shipping and processing returns. Turn your big ideas into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com sysk go to shopify.com sysk shopify.com sysk have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Being scooped into the carton?

[Mike Carruthers]

And time just stands still when you think about your adolescent years, what do you think? Was it a particularly difficult time? It seems to be for many people. Adolescence is often thought of a time for risky behavior and some bad decisions. But what goes on in the brain of an adolescent? And how do those teen years influence your life as an adult? And what should every parent be on the lookout for in their own adolescent child? Every one of us who is now an adult has gone through their adolescent years and and survive them. So what about them? Well, here with the latest understanding and research on adolescence is Matt Richtel. He's a health and science reporter at the New York Times, and he spent nearly two years reporting on the teenage mental health crisis for that paper's series Inner Pandemic. Matt is also author of a book called How We Grow Understanding Adolescence. Hey, Matt. Welcome to something you should know.

[Matt Richtel]

Hi, Mike. How are you?

[Mike Carruthers]

Good, thanks. So when I look back on my adolescence and those years, those teen years, I remember them pretty well. I think they're memorable years for many of us, perhaps in part because a lot of firsts happen in your teen years, important firsts. But as somebody who studies and reports on adolescence, or what is it? What is adolescence? And why does it seem to be fraught with trouble?

[Matt Richtel]

Adolescence is a process of integration between the known and the unknown. And what I mean is that what is known is what our parents teach us. Use a fork. Do your homework. This is how the world works. It's what we tell them. What is unknown, Mike, is what actually works in a real world that is changing. So I'm going to get into what this conflict is internally and between generations. But in short, adolescents are reconciling what they've been told and what they are actually experiencing. And this is what they're biologically programmed to do.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that's an interesting definition, and it sounds right, but it certainly isn't experienced that way. I don't think if you asked an adolescent, you know, how's life going? They would say, well, I'm struggling with the known and the unknown. That's not how it's experienced.

[Matt Richtel]

Yeah, and that's why I frame it this way. Because actually, after a lot of testing this with the scholars and the researchers at 30,000ft, the adolescent brain is a hypersensitized information processing machine under very difficult circumstances. There are two sources of conflict. One is the internal conflict. Think about this. There's a sense of conflict in the young person who is attempting, as I said, to reconcile everything their parents tell them with everything they're experiencing in the world. That world is changing. And let's be honest, parents don't always get everything right. So here's a young person who is saying, my parents have indoctrinated me into these ideas, much of which are very valuable and some of which are not conforming to what I'm experiencing. Now, why aren't they conforming to what the young person's experiencing? There are two reasons for this. One is that the world is changing. The other is young people are changing the world, are contributing to that because they're carving out their own ground. So imagine that sense of conflict when you're saying, this is what I've been told to do every day, and this is my. I am trying to test the terrain myself to make sure those rules work. That's a very intense feeling.

[Mike Carruthers]

So adolescence has a reputation. They're often thought of as difficult years. They're troubled years, risky behavior, bad decisions. And we can all remember people in high school that went through that. What is that?

[Matt Richtel]

We understand much better than we ever have what that is. And the reason we understand is because scientific methodology has changed. In the past, we looked at their behaviors and said Neanderthal. But now that we can look under the hood of their brain with neuroscientific techniques, imaging, we understand something that you just alluded to. That's very important. Adolescents are tuned into reward, and they're tuned away from their families, into their peer groups. What's happening during this period is that they are programmed to look for things that are rewarding, which causes them to ignore risk a little bit, because they really need to understand what their footing is in the world around them. It's one thing to. To have been told by your parents this is how things work. It's another thing to test that ground for yourself. And I can make a very good case that biology has programmed us to test by ourselves, because you can't trust everything you hear. And hearing something is not the same as experiencing it. So when someone goes and tries alcohol, when someone goes and goes over the speed limit, when someone tests their relationship with their. With their teachers, that is not expressly an act of rebellion. It is an act of probing, essential for the survival of the individual and the species.

[Mike Carruthers]

So some adolescents exhibit those behaviors, but not all of them. There are some kids who go through adolescence seemingly without a whole lot of trouble, and others who go through it with nothing but trouble.

[Matt Richtel]

Yes, and I've looked expressly into that question, and the research suggests, Mike, that more often than not, people are not experiencing that much trouble. Mike, if you think about adults and the spectrum of skills that we have, there are some people who are managers, who are good at playing by the rules. There are some people who are creators, who are good at looking at things in a different way. We exist as a species through a spectrum of human condition. And in our adolescence, there is a spectrum of tolerance to risk and a spectrum of desire for reward. And when you see that in your individual kids, it's tempting to say, what did I do wrong? What's happening here? Oh, my gosh, I'm a terrible parent or I'm a great parent. I think a better way to look at it is there's a spectrum. And depending on how you view that the spectrum, you may think you're lucky to have the kid who explores like crazy or the kid who's much easier to deal with, as it were.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I've always thought that one of the reasons that we notice and shine a spotlight on what we consider troubled adolescent behavior is as children grow up into adolescence, they start to do things just naturally that they've never done before. Well, Bobby's never done that before and.

[Matt Richtel]

No, Bobby has not.

[Mike Carruthers]

And look at that. And because that's now different, it's potentially troublesome.

[Matt Richtel]

Yes, and I'm glad you asked that question, because a lot of this behavior, while frustrating, even scary, is not necessarily inherently troubling. They are programmed to do the new thing for the reasons I just explained. And, Mike, if I might add some context to this. That period of risk tolerance and reward seeking fades as we get older, into our 20s and 30s. So that means that parents are not exactly on the same frequency as the young people who are. Say, let's pick an example. Bobby never stayed out till two in the morning and didn't. And didn't tell us where he was. Bobby never didn't show up for class before. Understand that Bobby is trying to make sense of the boundaries and the rules of society. And Mike, it's tempting to ask, well, if Bobby does this, is Bobby hosed for life? And the answer is no. With a couple caveats I'd like to stress. The answer is this period is one of discovery that will likely fade into an adult life like most of us understand, unless something really rotten happens. There are a couple really red lines and I would put as one of the most profound addiction, because that's something that can last with you the rest of your life. There's a big difference between experimenting with a beer or weed and discovering that you have a propensity to addiction. And that's one of those places where I plead with parents to intervene as strongly as they might. That is something that can last forever. There are other things that can last forever. For instance, drinking and driving that leads to an accident. Severe criminal activity. These are things that can mar a person. Now, criminal activity of various degrees can be seen under the heading of experimentation. Someone shoplifts, it doesn't mean they're going to spend their lives unsuccessful. I just draw a fine line between those things that put a. Sorry, not a fine line. I draw A very thick line between those things that endanger your health or someone else's health that parents must draw a fine line around. The other stuff. I urge parents to put it under the heading of what experimentation is being done here? What's the big picture in my adolescent's life? To what extent are they trying to figure out what works and what doesn't work? And then a parent can begin to set the boundaries around that particular individual.

[Mike Carruthers]

I'm wondering how formative those adolescent years are. In other words, I've heard things like, for example, the music that you like in adolescence tends to be your favorite music for the rest of your life. And that there are things that happen in adolescence and I wonder how impactful they are later on. Romance, you know, those early romances and heartbreaks and things, those can really stick with you. And I wonder if they help to form who you are and how you handle those things later.

[Matt Richtel]

It's been studied in a manner of speaking, through a very discrete, important piece of science, which is what happens inside the brain during adolescence. When you enter into this period of adolescence, you become very hypersensitive to the world around you. And your brain is particularly. The word they use is plastic. Over the course of adolescence, there is this phrase scientists use where they say it's a period of use it or lose it. And as that plasticity begins to harden, Mike the brain of the adolescent goes from being very open to new ideas like music or romance to, by the end, seeing some hardening in the brain around certain ideas that an adolescent has emphasized. Now, this doesn't mean an adolescent can't learn something new later, but it means some tracks are laid down during this period.

[Mike Carruthers]

I've seen it happen where adolescence takes a toll on the relationship between the teen and the parents. Because there is behavior that is different, and there's rebellion and there's testing the waters that the relationship takes a hit. Do you generally think that resolves itself over time, or does the relationship really take a hit?

[Matt Richtel]

Mike I've seen that go a lot of different directions. I'll start with what the conflict is. There are, to my mind, two sources of conflict based on the research. One is that this kid is going through a testing period, and the parents are like, wait, I explained to you how this works. You're not listening to me. I'd urge parents in this period to internalize the idea that there is some testing going on. This doesn't mean parents let young people get away with everything. In fact, I'd argue that what it calls for Is very, very clear boundaries around the very most important stuff. And some understanding that the less important stuff is. Is not personal. It's not a reflection of the parents. It's not actually. It's not so much a rejection of the parents as it is an effort to understand if what the parents are saying really works in the real world.

[Mike Carruthers]

What about the experiences in adolescence that seem very important at that time in terms of how they affect you later? Things like if you're popular, if you have a girlfriend, if you play sports, if you. Those kinds of things that seem critical, then I'm not sure how much they affect you later.

[Matt Richtel]

Yeah, it's a really, really good question. These things that a young person can fixate on or ruminate on, not necessarily. They're just not as important as they seem at the time. And in fact, Mike, I'd argue that the fixation put on them is in the period of adolescence can even be a kind of. It may be a manifestation of the anxiety that the young person is dealing with more generally as they try to make sense of the world. But when they say, oh my gosh, I didn't make the varsity, my life is ruined. This is one of those places where I'd urge parents to step in and lend the perspective that says, one, it's not the end of the world, and two, there may be something you're going through young person that leads you to fixate or ruminate on this particular thing, when in point of fact, there's a much broader emotional struggle you're in. Which leads me back to one of the very first questions you asked, which is, how has adolescence changing? And there's a really fundamental biological phenomenon at play here. The age of puberty has fallen. Its onset for girls was about 14 years old in 1900. Now it's about 12 years old. Boys follow a similar path. Why is that important? When puberty hits, the brain courses with hormones that sensitize us to the world around us. The reason puberty is changing has to do with diet and other western things I won't go into right now. Because the most important thing is that you've now got a sensitive adolescent at a younger age that is happening just at a time. A ton of information is flooding us. If you go back to 1800s, we were not sitting in a world of news cycles, Information changing economies, changing jobs, things moving this quickly. What that does is, is put a lot of pressure on the adolescent brain to make sense of what's new when a lot is new.

[Mike Carruthers]

What else from the research you've done. What else about adolescence do? Maybe people don't understand or. Yeah, that people don't understand.

[Matt Richtel]

One thing I'd really stress is that in this exploration of the world around, there is an incentive, Microsoft to look for new. Not just to understand the world around you. And if you. I know, I know. There's a temptation for people to say, I was trying to find my identity. Who am I? What. Who am. What do I do in this world? Simultaneously, I'd ask adolescents to consider this idea that some of the things going through your mind are about things finding something new for yourself. And that sensation that you're moving away from your parents and exploring is very, very natural and important. It doesn't mean that you can't play by the rules, but it means you are programmed to look for new things, and that is okay.

[Mike Carruthers]

So this question of whether it's tougher today to be an adolescent than it was in the past is one I. I'd like you to weigh in on, because my sense is that's not true. I mean, it was just as tough then, given the circumstances then, 30, 40, 50 years ago, dealing with what you had to deal with, it wasn't easier. It was just. That was your reality. That was then and today is today. But I just never got the sense it's harder. It's just maybe different.

[Matt Richtel]

I wholly agree. I'd stop that analysis about 150 years ago when it was, I guess, easier in that there was no period of adolescence and much harder in that you went from being a child to being in a trade, to being pregnant or a father, and to dying. So this adolescence is a product of modern society.

[Stefan Kolsch]

And.

[Matt Richtel]

And since it's begun, I agree with you, Mike, that. Not that it's begun, but since this time period and this transition has existed in a modern society, I don't think it's much different than it used to be, because I think that that difficulty in taking in the old rules, testing, probing, risking, upsetting the people who came before you is very difficult. The only exception to that question is the falling age of puberty. It means that there are people who are more vulnerable or sensitive and aware at an earlier age in life when the rest of their brains are no more developed than they used to be. What do I mean? There's a kind of a neurological mismatch for people who hit puberty earlier. The mismatch is between how sensitive they are to the world and how equipped their brains are to. To make sense of what's around them. We need to recognize this phenomenon as a society and really help our young people by talking them through what's going on. It's not that they're going crazy. It's that they're highly sensitive to a fast changing environment.

[Mike Carruthers]

You had mentioned earlier about the eighth grader who says, everyone in school hates me. Life's not worth living. Or those times when there's a romance, adolescent romance, that breaks up and it's just devastating. But eventually that stops when you get the other side of adolescence. But what is it in adolescence that causes those very sensitive and extreme reactions to those, I guess, their social situations. But at some point you stop doing that, those things go away.

[Matt Richtel]

Yeah, those hormones that create immense sensitivity to the world around you. Heightened, heightened sensitivity. It's almost like having a microscope that shines the sun extra hard into your brain about social events. Those hormones begin to fade, and then simultaneously, you've begun to learn some of what actually works. And you're putting it into practice. So you're not as sensitive, you've learned more. You may never be as vulnerable to that sensation as you are during your adolescence. Which is why I hope this becomes an opportunity for us to help young people through it so that they can have the experimentation, probing, experience the emotion, but don't cross the red line into things that will destroy their lives and ours as people who love them.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, having lived through my own adolescence and watching my boys go through theirs, I haven't really thought about it in the way you're talking about it. So it's great to get that perspective. I've been talking with Matt Richtel. He is a health and science reporter at the New York Times and author of the book How We Grow Understanding Adolescence. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Matt, thanks for being here.

[Matt Richtel]

Thanks, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

It's hard to realize it in the moment, but environmental factors have a big impact on. On how you judge the food you eat. So much so that a professor at Oxford coined the term gastrophysics as the name of this new science. His name was Dr. Charles Spence. And what he found is. For example, music and lighting have a big effect. In one of the largest ever wine tastings involving 3,000 people. Participants were given a glass of wine and then asked what it tasted like and how much they enjoyed it. Afterwards, the lighting and the music were changed and they were given another glass, which unbeknownst to them, was filled with the same wine. And their responses to the questions changed by 20%. At a restaurant, the menu matters. The perfect number of starters is 7 main courses is 10 and any fewer than that and the diners felt shortchanged anymore and they started to feel overwhelmed. You'll enjoy your food more if you are the first at the table to give your order. By doing so, you are ordering what you really want instinctively. Red plates cause you to eat less. Red is a primitive danger signal, but it also gives the food less contrast, which makes it less desirable. So you will eat less of it. And the weight of your fork matters. People who eat food with heavy silverware perceive the food as more expensive than people who eat the same food with lighter forks. And that is something you should know. Something youg Should Know is produced by Jennifer Brennan and Jeffrey Havison. Executive producer is Ken Williams. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. You might think you know fairy tales.

[Stefan Kolsch]

And you might think that they are cute and sweet and boring, but the.

[Mike Carruthers]

Real Grimm fairy tales were not cute at all. They were very dark and they were often very grim. On Grim, Grimmer Grimmest, we tell a.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Grim fairy tale to a bunch of kids.

[Mike Carruthers]

Perfect for car rides or screen free entertainment.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Grim Grimmer Grimmest activates kids imaginations and.

[Mike Carruthers]

Instigates fun conversations because fairy tales speak to all of us at a very.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Deep, primal level and they raise interesting topics and questions that are worth chewing.

[Mike Carruthers]

Over together as a family.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Every episode is rated Grim, Grimmer or Grimmest.

[Mike Carruthers]

So you, your kids, your whole family can choose.

[Stefan Kolsch]

What is the right level of grim for you?

[Mike Carruthers]

Though, if you're listening with Grandma, she's just gonna go for Grimmest. Trust me on this one.

[Stefan Kolsch]

Tune in to Grim, Grimmer Grimmest and our new season.

[Advertiser]

Available now from the podcast that brought you to each of the last lesbian bars in the country and back in time through the sapphic history that shape them, comes a brand new season of Cruising beyond the bars. This is your host, Sarah Gabrieli and I've spent the past year interviewing history making lesbians and queer folks about all kinds of queer spaces, from bookstores to farms to line dancing and much more.

[Stefan Kolsch]

For 11 years, every night women slept illegally on the common. We would move down to the West Indies to form a lesbian nation. Meg Kristen coined the phrase women's music, but she would have liked to say it was lesbian music.

[Matt Richtel]

And that's kind of the origins of the Combaheever collective.

[Advertiser]

You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes air every other Tuesday starting February 4th.