← Something You Should Know
Something You Should Know
The Human Need We're Neglecting & The Mystery of Great Ideas - SYSK Choice
00:51:55
Why strong relationships may be your best health investment—and how imagination really works.
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A
Today on something, you should know what digital dementia is doing to your brain and everyone else's. Then having close friends makes you healthier and happier. And there are a lot of ways to make those connections.
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First of all, people like us more than we think, right? There's what's known as the liking gap, which shows that we underestimate how much other people view us favorably and so we would all do well. Just a assume that people like you
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A
also do get well. Flowers actually help people get well. And what does it mean to use your imagination?
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C
We think of the imagination, if we think of it at all, as something that's bestowed upon us from above. And some people have it, some people don't have it, or some people have a little of it, some people have a lot of it. For me, the imagination is a muscle. It's something you can work at, it's something you can develop.
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A
All this today on something you should know. So Wayfair just became a sponsor here. So my wife and I, we've been spending way too much time on their website trying to decide what to get. Honestly, I had no idea they carried this much stuff. Furniture, outdoor living, lighting, everything for the kitchen, storage, rugs. I mean, it just keeps going. At first we were sure we were going to get a couple of Adirondack chairs for the backyard. But then we started looking at patio furniture because ours has seen better days and somehow we ended up looking at lamps and storage cabinets. One thing that really surprised me was the prices. I kept finding things that looked like they'd cost a lot more and I like that Wayfair has Wayfair verified where their product specialists actually test and vet products before recommending them. Plus, with over 20 million five star reviews, you can see what real customers think before you buy. I'll update you later on what we actually get. But if you've been putting off upgrading a room or your patio or really anything around the house, I highly recommend you just start browsing Wayfair. Ready to upgrade your home for way less? Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less. That's W a Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Something you should know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, Let me ask you a question. Do you know your own phone number? A lot of people don't, especially young people don't know their own Phone number. Now I know my own phone number and I know my wife's phone phone number, but I don't know my son's phone number off the top of my head because I don't have to. It's in my phone. And that's the problem. There's something called digital dementia. It's not a real medical diagnosis, at least not yet anyway. And a simple example of this is how people don't know their own phone number because the phone remembers it for them. We know that rapid advancements in technology have had a profound impact on our attention spans and. And our mental activity. In fact, there was a study done some time ago by Microsoft that found that attention Spans decreased from 12 seconds in the year 2000 to less than 8 seconds in the year 2013, which is shorter than the attention span of a goldfish. And it's likely that hasn't gotten better in the last 11 years when the study was done. This decrease has been attributed to the constant use of digital devices and the constant bombardment of information. Chronic sensory overstimulation from excessive screen time can also result in memory and concentration problems. Extensive technology use has been linked to decreased brain connectivity and lower cognitive performance. There's reason to believe that digital dementia may even lead to real dementia later in life. The only real solution appears to cut back on technology use, cut back on screen time, more physical activity, and more time outdoors. And that is something you should know. How is your social health? Are you socially healthy? Meaning, do you have friends and family you're close to that you do things with that you confide in? Because the concern is that a lot of people don't. We have social media and online friends and maybe acquaintances at work, but it seems that people today have fewer deep, quality relationships than in the past. So why is that? And what is so important about these relationships? Well, here to explain that is Kasli Killam. She is a recognized expert on the topic of social health. She's worked with organizations such as Google, the US Department of Health and Human Services, and the World Economic Forum on creating more socially healthy products, workplaces, and communities. She's author of a book called the Art and Science of why Our Social Health Is the Key to Living Longer, Healthier, and Happier. Hi, Kasli. Welcome to something you should know.
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B
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
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A
So why is this idea of social health important? I mean, sure, it's nice to have friends and family, and you don't want to be lonely and have that sense of loneliness, but. But why is this such a big deal?
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The research shows that you cannot be fully healthy without close friends who you can confide in and without seeing family members for more than once a year. All of those relationships, the data shows, aren't just about happiness. They're. They actually determine how long we live. They determine how healthy we are while we're alive.
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A
Is there any sense as to how that works, how being socially connected makes you live longer? Like, what's the mechanism that makes that so?
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B
Yeah, for sure. So one of the leading theories on that is that connection actually buffers against the stress response in our body, which would otherwise weaken our immune system. So if you think about a stressor, that could be, you know, a lion charging at you, or it could be a fight with a coworker or a disagreement with your spouse, those trigger stress responses in our body, and when that's prolonged, that cortisol and other things going on weaken our immune systems and lead to greater susceptibility to diseases. So, in contrast, connection and feeling supported and cared for and loved actually assuages that and helps to prevent that whole downward spiral from happening and improving our. Our immunity in general. So, for example, there was a study done a while back where the researchers infected different people with cold viruses. And those people who felt more supported and received more hugs during the study, they had fewer symptoms of the cold. So we can see that even at that level, our immune systems benefit from affection and from. From love.
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A
So how do you know if you have that? I mean, you can. We've heard of people who have other people in their life but still feel lonely and that. And that I. I think generally people think even though they may have friends, that other people have more friends than they, and that they're somehow lacking in social connection. So how do you know what's enough?
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B
Yeah, this is a really great question. And it is subjective, Right. In the same way that the number of calories I need to eat may be different than the number of calories that you need to eat, the amount of interaction or the number of friends that I need might be different from you. And so there is this level of subjectivity that takes some reflection, and we can experiment with it in the same way that we experiment with different types of exercise. Right. I've tried running. I've tried Pilates and some things I like and some things I don't. And so it's really about being intentional and paying attention to how we feel in general. Right. Asking yourself, do you tend to feel more lonely or do you tend to feel more connected. Do you have people who. Or at least one person who you can reach out to when you're going through a tough time and just need to. To talk it through. Are you spending time in person with people as much as you would like or not? And so really kind of reflecting on those different questions and thinking about what feels fulfilling to you. Right. Do you feel energized after you leave a certain interaction, or do you feel drained, really taking the time to reflect on that because it is a subjective experience. Right. Our social health. There isn't one measure you can take at the doctor's office. It's about how do you feel? Do you feel connected, connected or not?
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A
Well, there's also that issue, or maybe it's an issue of, you know, whether you're an introvert or extrovert, that if you're an introvert, maybe you don't need a lot of social connection, or at least you don't need a lot of people. You just need someone or occasional or how does that fit into the recipe here?
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B
Absolutely. I love this question because I am an introvert. And I think it's important that an introvert wrote the book called the Art and Science of Connection. Because if an extrovert wrote this book and was just telling everyone you need to socialize all the time, that would not resonate with about half the population. Right. Many of us, that. That just doesn't. That's not fulfilling. And in fact, that's draining. So for me, as an introvert, it's really about balancing the time I spend socializing with time spent in solitude where I can recharge my batteries and connect with myself. That's as much a part of our social health as connecting with other people. It really starts with that foundation. And so if you think about it as kind of an equilibrium, what feels nourishing to me is a higher percentage of time alone than an extrovert. An extrovert wants more frequent interaction. Right. And so it really comes down to that cadence. However, I will say that in general, quality is more important than quantity. Right. So aiming for meaningful relationships and meaningful interaction should be an ideal that we all strive toward, rather than just socializing for socializing's sake.
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Well, it does seem that, and maybe this is more for introverts than extroverts, that it's also just the knowing that there's someone you can call or go see or go hang. You don't have to be with them, but knowing you can be with them. That in and of itself does Something Absolutely, absolutely.
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B
The deep yearning that we all have is to feel like we're cared for, to feel like someone out there thinks we matter. Right. And so it, even if we don't talk to that person very often, it's knowing that we could reach out and knowing that someone does love us that makes all the difference in the world. And in fact, some studies of children and youth show that even just having one person, one adult, one guardian who cares for a young person, that's enough to have lasting effects throughout their life in terms of their well being. So your completely right. It's really just about knowing that someone cares about us.
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And I like being completely right. So
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don't we all?
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Yes. So thanks for saying that. I feel so much better. The situation though is for many people that they don't feel that they don't have that and to say, well, you should go get that, well, if they could, they would have done that already. So it's very hard if you're feeling lonely, if you're feeling unconnected to, you know, and the advice is, well, you know, say hi to the barista or you know, say hi to the guy at the grocery store in line in front of you and but you know, I don't know that that really does a whole lot to make you feel connected. So how, what's the prescription?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. And if we look at the statistics on isolation and loneliness in the US but also around the world, we can see that a lot of people feel that way. Right. And so it is a very common experience. And what I would say to everyone who be feeling that way, and by the way we all do at some times, is that in the same way that you can go from being malnourished to well fed, or from being exhausted to well rested, you can go from being lonely and disconnected to having the support and the meaningful relationships that you desire. There are absolutely ways to go about that, but there's no quick fix. Right. It does take time and effort to, to build the kind of sense of community and belonging that we all crave. So thing I would suggest is to start small. You know, it can feel really daunting and I hope that everyone takes their social health seriously because the stakes are high. We know that we live longer if we have meaningful connections. But also not to be hard on yourself. Right. It, it takes time. And so a simple thing that people can do to get started are to set connection goals and think about what does that look like for me? You know, if, if you want to make one new Friend. That's a great goal right there. And then, of course, it's about taking action to continue fulfilling toward that. Right. Once you set a goal, you have to work toward it. And there are many ways that we can go about it, but it starts with that intention. Right. We're not going to be socially healthy unless we decide that it's a priority to us.
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A
Well, I've always thought that one of the reasons, especially that grownups have. Adults have trouble, is that connecting as a kid is so much easier. Everybody's a potential friend. Everybody. Oh, you like Transformers. Me too. And now you're friends, and it just doesn't work that way when you're a grownup.
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B
Yeah, it's a great point. And I actually think we would all benefit from adopting a bit more of that youthfulness, youthful mindset around friendship. Right. Why can't it be as simple as. You like Transformers and so do I. So now we're friends. We get. Things just get more complicated as we get older. But they don't necessarily need to, because the fact of the matter is that everyone craves new friendships and wants to connect over shared interests and feel like they're making new, vibrant relationships, every single one of us. And for some reason, we have social norms where it's just not so socially acceptable to necessarily do that. But it doesn't have to be that way.
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I guess. I'm guessing at this, but it seems that the fear of rejection, the worry that if you try and someone rejects you, then why bother? So I don't. Gets in the way a lot.
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B
Definitely. Absolutely. And we see that when people experience rejection or they feel lonely. However, the research on this is really interesting because studies have shown that, first of all, people like us more than we think. Right. There's what's known as the liking gap, which shows that we underestimate how much other people view us favorably. And so we would all do with kind. We would all do well with kind of assuming that people are going to like us in given situations. And I love. There's advice from psychologist Dr. Marissa Franco, who talks about just assume that people like you because chances are they like you more than. Than you actually think.
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Well, that's interesting. I want to talk a little more about that. I'm speaking with Kasli Killam. She's author of the book the Art and Science of why Our Social Health Is the Key to Living Longer, Healthier and Happier. One thing I love about summer is how simple getting dressed becomes. And I've noticed something kind of funny when I'm getting ready in the morning. I keep looking for the same shirt, not because I plan to wear it, and it's just the one I want for me. That's my quince linen shirt. It's light, it's breathable, it looks good without trying too hard. And somehow it works, whether I'm meeting someone for lunch or just running errands. That's when you know you've bought something good, when you stop thinking about it and you just reach for it. I have several quince pieces now, and they're all like that. Their T shirts are incredibly soft. The linen is perfect for the summer heat. And when the evening cools off, their lightweight cotton sweaters are exactly right. And they look great. What also impressed me is that Quint sells everything for 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and skip the middleman. So you're paying for the quality, not the middleman, not somebody else's marketing budget. And it isn't just clothing anymore. We've picked up things for the house and for travel too. And the quality is consistently excellent.
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C
Excellent.
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Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.comSYSK for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comSYSK One thing I've noticed after interviewing literally hundreds of entrepreneurs over the years is that almost nobody starts a business with a perfect plan. No, they start with an idea. That's how I started. But you gotta take the first step if you've got something you've always wanted to sell. Shopify makes that first step a whole lot easier. You don't have to worry about how your online store will look or how you're gonna get paid or what your checkout is. Shopify has all that handled. That means less time wrestling with the technology and more time doing what actually grows a business. Shopify already powers millions of businesses worldwide, from big brands like Mattel and Gymshark to new businesses just starting up. So maybe they should be powering your business as well. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial@shopify.com sysk that's shopify.com sysk shopify.com sysk so Kasli, what you said about people like us more than we think, that's really a big deal because that's not people's experience a lot of the time that, that especially if something goes wrong in the conversation, people think, well, that's the end of that because you. You blew it.
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B
Yeah. It turns out that most of us are preoccupied with worrying about how we come across, and the other person is paying less attention to the mistakes we make and more attention to the mistakes they make. So we can certainly do well with a little bit more of more kindness and patience toward ourselves. There's also great research showing that we underestimate how much our outreach means other people. So if you send a text out of the blue to a friend and say, hey, I was just thinking about you, miss you, hope you're doing well, or maybe you express gratitude to someone out of the blue, that means so much more to them than we can possibly imagine. And we can relate to this. If you think about being on the receiving end of that right, when someone expresses a sincere compliment to you or out of the blue reaches out and says something nice, it feels really good. It's such an instant, kind of easy boost to how we're doing and to how connected we feel to that other person. So sometimes it can feel like we have to go out of our way and totally disrupt our lives in order to develop meaningful friendships, when in fact, really simple steps can still be very meaningful.
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A
Well, imagine, you know, when you get a thank you note in the mail, in the real mail, like how good that feels. And it took so little effort for the person to send it, and yet it's. It's like, oh, oh, wow, that's nice.
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Absolutely.
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It's the same thing.
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Yeah, it's huge. I love getting mail in the actual mailbox. Not so much my email inbox.
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Yeah. And handwritten mail too, for sure.
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It's the thought behind it, Right. It's a signal of someone cares so much about me that they took the time to do that and to express that. And that's huge.
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This seems to be. I don't know what the statistics are, but this seems to be a bigger problem now than it used to be. Or maybe that's not true. I don't know.
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B
Yeah, there are quite a few worrisome trends, I would say, that have emerged in recent decades. So as one example, the number of friends that people have has actually declined. So, for example, in 1990, only 3% of Americans said they have no close friends. And in 2021, 12% of Americans said say that they have no close friends. In Contrast, back in 1990, about a third of Americans said they have 10 or more friends, which is quite a few if you ask me. 10 or more close friends. And then that has fallen to in 2021, down to 13%. So we have fewer friends and at the same time, we're spending less time with the friends that we do have have. So in fact, the amount of time that we spend with our friends has decreased by an average of 20 hours per month in recent decades. So that's one example. And then of course, there's the very alarming statistics on loneliness specifically. And last year, the US Surgeon General issued an advisory about the epidemic of isolation and loneliness. And unfortunately, this isn't just centered in the U.S. right. Worldwide, about 1 in 4 people report that they feel fairly or very lonely. Lonely overall. So disconnection is, is quite a huge issue. The fact that we have fewer friends, people belong to community groups less than they used to. These are different signals of poor social health. And it's an indication that we really need to prioritize our social health like we do our physical and mental health.
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A
It also seems, just from my observation, that it because of social media, people communicate on social media. And I compare it to like eating junk food instead of eating real food. Like, it sort of satisfies something in you, like, oh, I connected with Bob, so everything's okay. But it doesn't really have the same effect as if you and Bob really went out to lunch or played golf or did what you and Bob should really be doing as opposed to chatting on Facebook.
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B
Absolutely. I think the junk food analogy is perfect. Right. It can be helpful. Right? Technology is a tool. And so if we're using it to stay in touch with people or to keep tabs on, you know, photos from different events that our friends are going to or things like that, it can be a useful tool. But as we're seeing and as most of us feel, it's not fulfilling in the way that a conversation one on one with a friend in person is.
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A
Does this affect people differently in the sense that because maybe younger people are more used to online, maybe more superficial connections with people, that this lack of friendship or this lack of connection doesn't bother them as much as older people or not?
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B
Certainly it feels like young people today and myself included as a millennial, it's easier to feel like, like people are your friends when they're not truly, you know, I, I think you're onto something. I also will say that youth today, so Gen Z and kind of teenagers and young adults show the highest levels of loneliness, even higher than older adults. And I know Typically we kind of have a stereotype of older adults after they're retired, being alone and very lonely. But it turns out that no, in fact it's young people today who are experiencing, seen the highest levels of disconnection. So there's something there. Right. Our social lives are so different today than they were in past generations and those ramifications are still being understood.
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A
Something I know you've looked into and I want you to talk about, because I have a hard time getting my head around this, is that people are using artificial intelligence, becoming friends with basically with, with fake people and perhaps even romantic partners with artificial intelligence people. Really?
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B
Yes. Yep. There are a lot of people who, millions of people around the world who have AI wives and partners and husbands. And it's very interesting. And I think that increasingly we're going to have to ask of ourselves, what role do we want technology to play in our social health? For a lot of these people, they feel like they can't find meaningful connection or the kinds of conversations that they want in the real life. And so they're turning to artificial intelligence to get that and to fulfill that need.
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And since you've looked at that and you researched that, how's that going? How, how fulfilling is that?
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Well, the research is mixed, I would say. Some people swear by it and I want to be careful to have a really compassionate and humanistic lens on it because while it's not something I relate to, a lot of people are finding comfort through this. There is some data suggesting that if people use AI as kind of a training ground to practice conversation and social skills, that can be helpful. Right. If you're socially anxious in real life, maybe you can learn your way through that in AI and then take those skills into the real world. However, I do worry about people who are solely connecting with AI and not eat and being overly dependent on it. Right. Because ultimately fundamental belonging, that's core to our health and our well being and the point of being alive is real human connection.
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A
But I have to ask because when you said that they're having like husbands and wives, AI like marriages, but usually in a marriage there's a physical element involved that how does that work?
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B
Right. Well, I don't know too much, but there it is just a chatbot in that case. And so there isn't a physical element in that same way. Right. They can't have the AI chatbot out for dinner or have them over to their home. So I, I think it's, it's primarily an emotional and a conversational relationship, but these people truly. I mean, a lot of the people who I learned about who are using AI as a companion in this way, they genuinely feel like they love their AI companions. I mean, there's true human emotion behind these relationships that's not fake. Even if the AI is not a real person, the feelings that they're experiencing are very, very real.
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A
Well, it sounds almost science fictiony, but as you say, if it can help people to communicate better and relate better to real people, then it might be quite a tool. I've been speaking with Kasli Killam. She is a recognized expert on the topic of social health, and she is author of the book the Art and Science of why Our Social Health Is the Key to Living Longer, Healthier, and Happier. There's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for stopping in and talking about this. It was really enlightening.
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B
Thank you so much Mike. It has been a pleasure. I enjoyed chatting with you about this
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A
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B
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A
What does it mean to use your imagination? What is your imagination? How does it work? Work? Why do some people seem to have a more fertile imagination than others? Can you develop your imagination, or do you already have as much imagination as you're ever going to get? Well, here to shed some light on your imagination and how it works, and maybe how to make it work better is Albert Reed. He's managing director of Conde Nast in Britain, where he oversees British Vogue gq, Wired, and Conde Nast Traveler. He's author of a book called the Imagination Muscle, Where Good Ideas Come From. Hey Albert, welcome. Glad to have you on something you should know.
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C
Hi Mike, great pleasure to be here.
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A
So I love this topic because I mean, how often in life have you had to do something or get something done or tackle a project and someone will say, just use your imagination? And I always wonder, well, what the hell does that mean? What does that mean? So what is your imagination? It's not a thing.
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C
Your imagination can be described in so many ways, but really it's seeing what is not already there. It's being able to conjure up something new. And you're right, people don't really think about it that much. It's something that we all know we possess, but we don't really think about what it is or how we can get more of it, how we can develop our own imaginations. We think of the imagination, if we think of it at all, as something that's bestowed upon us from above. And some people have it, some people don't have it, or some people have a little of it, some people have a lot of it. For me, the imagination is a muscle. It's something you can work at, it's something you can develop. And in the way that we pay attention to our physical health and our emotional well being, we should do the same with our imagination. We should pay attention to our imaginative health.
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A
And why should we? What's the payoff to doing that? Why do we need to be more imaginative day to day? What's the point?
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C
On a personal level, all studies show that being imaginative, being creative, paying attention to our imaginations makes us happier. And, and we've come to the point in society where we tend to outsource our imaginations to artists, to script writers, whereas in more traditional societies in the old days, the imagination was something where everybody plays their part. So what I'm advocating is that we go back to something along those lines where we all participate imaginatively and the results are that we are happier, we're way more fulfilled, we form communities, we feel closer to each other. And this, I believe is something that we risk losing in modern society.
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A
So when are you, when are you using your imagination? Because there's this idea of, you know, coming up with these wild creative ideas. But, but on a day to day basis. Okay, so I sit down and I do an episode of a podcast and I look at your stuff and I think of questions to am I questions to ask you. Am I using My imagination? Or am I just working, working?
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C
You're using your imagination. The way that I see it is the imagination exists on three levels. You have level one, the base imagination, where you're imagining what you're going to have for dinner that night. You're thinking of what to buy in the shop on the way home from work. There's that very base level of imagining, like breathing. And then you have the second tier, what I call the Pegasus imagination, which is where you're joining things together that didn't previously exist. And this is where most of the imagining takes place, that we think of as making new connections, having ideas, putting things together that didn't happen before. And then there's the third tier of imagination, which I write about, and I call it fusion, which is the very summit of imaginative activity. The great works of art, the great works of poetry, the great masterpieces of music. So I see the imagination as being these three different levels. And really, we exist to begin with on level one, and then we spend what we think of as our imaginative activity on level two. And then very occasionally, the great imaginative mountaineers, the great artists, the great scientists, the great philosophers, have ideas which can be put into the third category, where completely new things emerge. Great masterpieces of art and music and literature.
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A
And those people who are really the masters of imagination. I think of great painters like Leonardo da Vinci and all the things he did, or Albert Einstein or Thomas Edison, seem very imaginative. Do they have. Or did they have something special that the rest of us only hope to one day have, much like an Olympic athlete? I mean, all of us can run, but we can't run like that.
- [35:28]
C
We can't. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and run, run. And we do run, we take exercise, even though we know we're never going to win 100 meters. And the examples of Leonardo and Albert Einstein are two very good examples in two entirely different ways. If you think of Leonardo, he was somebody who could think across boundaries. He was the ultimate person who was a scientist and an artist. And he could take his work in science in its very acute observations of the human anatomy, which he would get from the incisions he'd make while studying human corpses at night. And then he'd go paint the Mona Lisa and capture the fine detail of the smile by knowing exactly how the smile in a real person worked. So you have this person in Leonardo who could think across boundaries. He could study things in one area and take them to another area. And one of the things that we need to remember is the people who make breakthroughs often do so by thinking across boundaries. We are, are in our education system, we are boundaried, we are sent into furrows of specialty where we are scientists, we are doctors, we're artists, we're, whatever it may be, journalists. And we become very, very narrow in our thinking. Whereas in the 18th and 19th centuries, people would quite naturally move from one boundary to another. So you'd have a philosopher who would become a scientist and a scientist who would become a philosopher, philosopher. And really this power of seeing things in different corners of your life and bringing them together and making connections for me is the great magic and power of idea and ideas generation. So what I want to try and bring back and encourage is this idea of thinking across boundaries. And that comes to Einstein. He was a scientist, but he was also a musician. And what I find fascinating is if you look at the Nobel Prize winners in science, they tend to have a disproportionate interest and activity in the arts. So if Einstein played the violin, and Isaac Newton was a painter and a poet, and Alexander Fleming, who discovered penicillin, was a member of the Arts Club in London. So you have these minds that roam effortlessly and with great curiosity across these different disciplines. So that really is something that, that we have to try and engender in our own ways of behaving and thinking.
- [37:54]
A
But it all seems so vague, you know, it's not like if you do this, then this will result. It's like do a little bit of everything and try a little bit of this and think a little bit about that and maybe you'll come up with a good idea.
- [38:08]
C
Well, it is a bit vague, but that's the way the mind works. You know, it wanders around and occasionally it stumbles across something magical. Magical, but in. But the important thing is to allow the mind to wander. And the world we exist in at the moment is very much attuned to being on the receiving end of information. If we stand in a queue waiting to get on a bus, we, we take out our phones, we check our emails and we, we look at videos and we look at social media. And what I want to try and remind people of is before we had social media, before we had mobile phones, these. These spaces in between these gaps in our lives were very powerful moments for us to have thoughts, which in some cases would lead to great breakthroughs. There are stories of mathematicians who broke, who came up with great formulas while waiting for a bus. There are musicians who came up with great compositions while queuing up to buy a ticket. And we risk losing something by ironing out these spaces and making life smooth and seamless and every gap filled in by more information, absorbing.
- [39:15]
A
It's fascinating to me how, like, for example, there's a place that I. One of my favorite places to go walking is around a lake in Vermont. And it's just so quiet and peaceful, and you hear the birds, and it's just like your mind just does wonderful things. But I often walk around that lake and see people on their phone, and I think, what are they? They're missing the whole point here. They're on their phone talking, or they're watching something or playing a game. And I think you missed the whole point.
- [39:54]
C
Completely agree. And if you look at the great poets like William Wordsworth in England, you know, he walked every day and he walked for miles. And walking was his way of gently jostling ideas into view, into the front of his mind. And there are lots of techniques which lend themselves to imagining more, to having other ideas that you wouldn't normally have. I mean, being in a shower, having a shower is the famous one. Walking is another one. But there are less obvious ideas than that writers and poets have come across in their lives. And Ivan Degeniev, the Russian novelist, would write his novels with his feet in a bowl of warm water. And Schiller, the German poet, would have a tray of rotten apples in his bottom drawer. And every now and then, in order to seek inspiration, he'd open the drawer and breathe deeply from the drawer and inhale the ethylene, this gas that emerges naturally from rotten apples.
- [41:00]
A
It seems from what I've heard other people talk about and from listening to you, that a lot of people typically think that, okay, so if I have something to do, what I need to sit down to do, what I need to do is sit down and work on it and try to solve it and focus on it. It. And it's like you're saying, no, maybe not. Maybe go do something entirely unrelated and see what shows up.
- [41:28]
C
I think you'll find, and the evidence suggests this, that if you have a problem, the best thing you can do is to study the problem and then go away and do something where your mind is distracted, whether it's sleeping or walking or taking a shower, you'll find yourself coming back with a. With sometimes the unconscious has done the work for you. We have this very, very powerful force within us which is the unconscious. And that does a lot of the work that is required to solve problems, to have ideas. But the Key the difficult bit, but the important element of our lives is how to remain in touch with the unconscious. How to have a kind of align to the unconscious which isn't just wild dreaming, but is the fertile shore between the sea of the unconscious and the rationality of wakefulness, where you have this halfway point where you have the best of both worlds, where the rational mind can absorb and digest and interpret these very powerful and interesting things going on in the unconscious.
- [42:30]
A
So how do you do that?
- [42:33]
C
You do it by walking, where your mind is disengaged from the here and now. You do it by. By finding this moment in the morning when you're not quite asleep, not quite awake. You do it by. Vladimir Nabokov used to sit in a parked car at the end of a long journey. Because your mind is, you know, you've been on this, in, in this, in this moving state and sudden you're still. And so you find these kind of interstitial moments in your day when your mind is disengaged. It's like the gear stick being put into neutral. And for a moment, for a time, your mind is not, not fully absorbed in the present, it's somehow in neutral. And that's a very important and somewhat magical moment in the day for the human mind.
- [43:18]
A
You mentioned earlier, and it's the case for me that the shower seems to be like a really kind of great place to get ideas for me and for a lot of other people. But what is it about the shower? What's going on there that it seems so universally good at generating ideas?
- [43:39]
C
Bashar is a moment when you're awake, but you're not really thinking about anything. And it's a combination of being in a waking trance, if that's the best way of describing it. Plus you have the warm water on the back of your head, which relaxes the brain. So it's one of these in between moments in the day when you're not. Not working, you're not talking, you're not doing anything, but you're just standing there and you're just absorbed. You know, you're bathed in warm water and it's just, it's just a. A moment of release, a moment of respite when the brain just goes back into neutral just for a few minutes. And that. And that's when things happen. Aaron Sorkin, the. The writer of the West Wing, would take several showers a day when he's writing in order just. Just to relax his mind, to have ideas. And I think if you're writing, if you're doing anything artistic, just pay attention to the moment when you get up and go and get a drink of water or walk around the block. You'll find, at least I find, that that's when you have ideas. Those are the moments when you step away from your work just for a few minutes and just pay attention to what happens in your mind.
- [44:53]
A
I find, and I'm sure most people do, or many people do, that the morning is better than later in the day. And I just have always assumed that that's because maybe you've slept and your mind's been sleeping and that you wake up fresh, ready for the day. And so that's when new ideas come. But do we know any science here?
- [45:13]
C
I think the science is not consistent. The science would tell you that each person is different. And some people I know, and I include my wife in the this work very well late at night. So I think it depends on energy levels. It depends on what kind of circadian rhythms you have in your sleep. But the times that seem to be most creative for people are the mornings and the evenings when the mind again is disengaged. They're not busy, the phone isn't ringing, the emails aren't arriving. So it's that ability to find a calm space free of external stimulants that really yields the interesting ideas.
- [45:53]
A
And since you've looked at what makes some people more imaginative and come up with more ideas than others, what do you find? What's the answer to that question?
- [46:03]
C
There are a few answers. One of the answers is adopt the mindset of a beginner. Be somebody who's open to new ideas. And something that happens to our minds as we get along in our lives is they become increasingly closed, new to new ideas. And so it is that you see the great bursts of creativity, the great works of art and music and literature have a tendency to be produced by people in their late 20s or early 30s. And that's because what you're getting at that point in your life is a meeting point of experience and the beginner's mindset. You're still open to new ideas. You're still receptive to the world around you. And the key for us as people is to try and retain that beginner's mindset throughout your life. And that's something that can be done and is done. And you see it with certain artists and writers who carry on producing great works of art into their 70s and 80s and even 90s. So the beginner's mindset is one thing that I think is Very important for anybody who wants to retain their imaginative capabilities.
- [47:15]
A
What about imagination, the whole subject of imagination, have we not talked about that you think people would find surprising?
- [47:23]
C
The thing we haven't discussed is the role of society in promoting imagination. If you think of how cities are built, there's a lot of evidence to suggest that cities can foster the imagination. So if you think of where you want to go when you visit Paris, you want to go to the artistic quarter, you don't want to go to the financial center. And we crave certain types of structures of cities with imperfect corners and rambling streets. And what I think we don't do enough of is when we design cities and we design offices and we design working environments, we don't think enough about how do we build these for the generation of ideas? How do we build cities for the future, where, given that most people live in cities and increasingly people are moving to cities, how do we create cities of the future which generate innovation ideas, meeting places, areas where people can congregate? This for me is a very important element of society which we don't really think about enough.
- [48:31]
A
Well, what would that look like? I mean, why do you think that there aren't places to congregate in cities now and could be better?
- [48:39]
C
Because I don't see it in the way that cities are being built in places like China. The global city dwelling populations is projected to increase by 2 1/2 billion people before 2050, with most of the growth coming in Asia and Africa. I mean, China's on course to build 300 new cities, each of over a million people over the next 25 years. And around one in eight of us is going to live in a megacity of more than 10 million inhabitants. And the point I really want to make about cities and the imagination is that the ideas we have in the future will therefore largely arise within these city environments, in urban surroundings. And yet, despite millennia of experience, despite like cities, despite the Agora of Athens, despite the back streets of Paris and the Renaissance cities of Florence and Venice, we still build cities in blocks, in grids. We don't really understand what it is that makes a city imaginative. And we don't systematically approach city planning where we say to ourselves, imagination feeds growth, ideas there are salvation. But how do we design a city above all, for ideas?
- [49:52]
A
When you talk about the people with the great ideas, the very imaginative people, Leonardo da Vinci and Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein, it's a very, I think of them in a very solitary way. But I also know that I've been in situations where two imaginations are better than one, that the collaboration of imaginations produces something bigger than two single imaginations.
- [50:20]
C
The great imaginative geniuses of history have tended not to have grown up on their own. They have tended to come out of groups of other geniuses or of other brilliant minds. If you think of Shakespeare, if you think of Isaac Newton, all these clusters, all these groups of people have emerged by being somewhat competitive with other people. If you think of Steve Jobs, the story of the coffee house, which started in the Middle east, but then came to London in the 17th century. And the coffee house became the great meeting point of great minds in the Enlightenment. And that really was an enormous boost for innovation, for ideas, for wealth, for exploration, for trade. Certainly in the world of biotech, they think a lot about this. How do we bring people together in ways that will spark ideas and spark the imagination? And this comes back to cities and designing serendipitous encounters, creating environments where people meet. And this is crucial to the propagation of ideas and innovation.
- [51:30]
A
Well, using your imagination, I hope it's an experience that everyone has had with, where you come up with something, your imagination dreams of something, and it just works and it's magic. And it's so satisfying when that happens. And it's such a great topic to talk about your imagination. I've been speaking with Albert Reed. He's author of the book the Imagination Where Good Ideas Come From. And if you'd like to read it, there is a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Appreciate you coming on. Thank you for being here, Al.
- [52:02]
C
Great, thanks, Mike. Good to talk.
- [52:07]
A
It's customary when someone is sick to bring them flowers to cheer them up, especially if they're in the hospital. And it turns out that flowers do have some real benefits. Numerous studies have demonstrated that exposure to nature, including floral displays, has a positive impact on our mental state. The mere presence of flowers has been shown to induce feelings of happiness and reduce anxiety and enhance relaxation. Other research indicates that the presence of flowers in an environment can lead to a significant reduction in stress levels and can combat feelings of sadness and anxiety. The presence of get well soon flowers in a room also reminds the patient that someone cares and can help reduce feelings of loneliness and isolation. And that is something you should know. Every episode of this podcast is the result of hard work by people like Jeffrey Havison and Jennifer Brennan. They're our producers. Ken Williams is our executive producer. And I am Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.
- [53:15]
B
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds. Here from Mint Mobile Now.
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A
I was looking for fun ways to
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C
tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited
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A
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B
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A
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B
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A
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