The Mystery of Common Knowledge & Why Some People Are Never On Time

Summary

Podcast Summary: Something You Should Know

Host: Mike Carruthers
Guests: Steven Pinker (Harvard Psychologist, author), Emily Labor Warren (Health and Science Reporter)
Date: September 22, 2025
Episode Theme:
Exploring the concept of common knowledge—how we know what “everyone knows,” why some social norms stick, how culture shapes our expectations, and why some people are always late (and how their “time personality” works).

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Main Themes & Purpose

This episode delves into the concept of “common knowledge”—the things we all know everyone knows—and why it matters for social order, economics, and personal interactions. Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker explains the power and fragility of common knowledge in everything from money to manners. In the second half, Mike interviews journalist Emily Labor Warren on why some folks are chronically late, what “time personality” means, and how cultural differences shape our relationship to the clock.

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Key Discussion Points

1. You Don't Know What You Really Look Like

[02:40] Short Insight by Mike Carruthers

• Research shows people often choose less accurate photos of themselves compared to strangers.
• Memory and desire to look flattering can distort self-image.
• Smiling photos tend to be judged as more accurate, despite official guidelines discouraging smiles in passport photos.

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2. What is Common Knowledge? (with Steven Pinker)

Interview Start: [05:45]

Defining Common Knowledge

• Steven Pinker [06:12]:
  “Common knowledge refers to the case where I know something, you know it, I know that you know it, you know that I know it…ad infinitum. It's necessary for coordination, for two people being on the same page.”
• Example: Meeting someone without cellphones; both need a way to agree on a spot (“rendezvous problem”).
• Currency and traffic norms rely on everyone knowing that everyone knows the rule.

Everyday and Large-Scale Coordination

• Pinker gives the example of everyone accepting paper money because it’s common knowledge that others do too.
• Driving on the right: works only because we assume everyone else knows to do it; fragile if that belief breaks down.

Sweden’s Overnight Traffic Switch

[11:21]

• Sweden changed from driving on the left to right overnight (midnight on New Year's).
• The public, shared, “popped out” time made it common knowledge and avoided chaos.

Coordination Failures and “Popping Out” Solutions

[12:54]

• Psychological experiments show people gravitate toward obvious choices (e.g., meeting at the Grand Central clock, picking the number 1).
• Common knowledge helps solve the “rendezvous problem” and affects everything from investments to bank runs.

Notable Quote:

“A bank run is the opposite: I better get my money out of the bank because other people are taking their money out of the bank because they’re afraid that other people are taking their money out of the bank.”
—Steven Pinker [15:22]

Beauty Contests, Investment Bubbles, and Herd Mentality

[13:50]

• John Maynard Keynes’s “beauty contest” analogy: people don’t just pick what they think is best, but what they think others will pick.
• Investment bubbles and panics are often driven by what we collectively think everyone else is thinking.

How Does Knowledge Become Common Knowledge?

[22:25]

• Public, conspicuous announcement or occurrence creates common knowledge.
• Sometimes, society uses “hints and euphemisms” to avoid making something public, preserving plausible deniability.

“Once it is out there…everyone knows that everyone knows. That can change everything.”
—Steven Pinker [22:37]

Self-Fulfilling Prophecies: The Toilet Paper Shortage

[20:02]

• Panic buying during COVID was caused not by actual shortage but by the belief that others would panic buy.
• The Johnny Carson anecdote: Jokes about a shortage led people to believe (and thus create) a shortage.

“There wasn't any real shortage of toilet paper until people thought there might be a shortage…And that created the shortage.”
—Steven Pinker [20:06]

• Stores posting “limit 1” signs serve both as a logistical fix and as a reassurance mechanism—rebuilding common knowledge and confidence.

Is Common Knowledge Human Nature or Culture?

[25:25]

• Pinker argues this is a foundation of culture: shared knowledge, customs, and values.
• Norms are maintained because “everyone knows that everyone knows”—not law enforcement.

Facial Expressions & Blushing as Common Knowledge Generators

[26:25]

• Blushing is both a physical and social phenomenon: everyone knows you've breached a norm, and you know they know.
• Blushing signals, “I know I screwed up,” and is often regarded sympathetically.

“Blushing is endearing. That's right. Even though it's painful to be the blusher, it actually raises your standing. And other people think better of you when you blush.”
—Steven Pinker [28:18]

Wrap-Up

[29:03]

• The power of common knowledge is usually invisible, but it shapes everything from traffic to trust, money, etiquette, and emotions.

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3. Why Are Some People Always Late? (with Emily Labor Warren)

Interview Start: [32:35]

Time Personality and Cultural Attitudes Toward Time

• Emily’s article explores “time personality”—monochronic (linear, on-time, task-by-task) vs. polychronic (flexible, multitasking, flow) approaches.
• Many cultures, including some in Latin America, Africa, and the Middle East, are polychronic. Northern US/Europe tends to be monochronic.

Notable Quote:

“Time is not the clock…We haven’t had clocks for very long in human history.”
—Emily Labor Warren [32:52]

• Punctuality is a relatively modern, industrial concept, driven by things like train schedules.
• Many cultures see value in “being present” over “being prompt.”

Social Conflicts Over Punctuality

• Monochronic individuals (often American or Northern European-leaning) see lateness as disrespectful: “If you said we’d meet at 9, it's an agreement.”
• Polychronic cultures value ongoing interactions more—leaving a conversation abruptly to keep another appointment can seem rude.

“If you cut off a conversation prematurely just because you have another appointment…in a certain culture, that feels tremendously rude.”
—Emily Labor Warren [37:08]

• Within every culture, there is individual variation.

Coping Strategies and Social Negotiation

• Both guests and host agree: real-world situations (catching planes, starting work, etc.) require punctuality.
• Leaving some flexibility—calling if running late, showing understanding in informal settings—can ease social tension.
• “Being late to a party is almost expected,” says Mike [42:54]. “Showing up on time can seem rude—unless you’re there to help.”

Polychronic vs. Monochronic Preferences

[45:49]

• The difference extends to multitasking: polychronic people are comfortable bouncing between tasks, while monochronic folks prefer to focus and complete one task at a time.
• Studies show performance differences: puzzle-solving is more effective when task structure matches a person’s time style.
• These are preferences, not hardwired traits—people can adapt based on context.

“These time styles are preferences. They're not traits…sometimes the best thing to do is…think about the context.”
—Emily Labor Warren [48:12]

Respect and Mutual Understanding

• The key takeaway: acknowledge that people are different, that punctuality isn’t the only value, and context (work/fun/social emergencies) should choose the approach.
• Recognizing these differences can help reduce frustration and improve relationships.

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4. Quick Tips: How to Snap Out of a Bad Mood

[51:38] Quick segment by Mike

• Have some tea—provides an instant feel-good lift.
• Exercise while watching TV—double the mood boost vs. exercising without distraction.
• Reach out to friends—a quick chat can lift your spirits.
• Order takeout—sometimes making fewer decisions helps when you’re stressed.

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Notable Quotes

| Quote | Speaker | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-------------------------|-----------| | “Common knowledge refers to the case where I know something, you know it, I know that you know it, you know that I know it, [etc.]” | Steven Pinker | 06:12 | | “A bank run is the opposite: I better get my money out … because other people are taking their money out ...” | Steven Pinker | 15:22 | | “There wasn't any real shortage of toilet paper until people thought there might be a shortage ... and that created the shortage.” | Steven Pinker | 20:06 | | “Once it is out there…everyone knows that everyone knows. That can change everything.” | Steven Pinker | 22:37 | | “Blushing is endearing. That's right. Even though it's painful to be the blusher, it actually raises your standing.” | Steven Pinker | 28:18 | | “Time is not the clock…We haven’t had clocks for very long in human history.” | Emily Labor Warren | 32:52 | | “If you cut off a conversation prematurely…in a certain culture, that feels tremendously rude.” | Emily Labor Warren | 37:08 | | “These time styles are preferences. They're not traits… think about the context.” | Emily Labor Warren | 48:12 |

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:40] — Why people can’t recognize their own current face in photos
• [05:45] — Steven Pinker introduces the concept of common knowledge
• [11:21] — Sweden’s traffic switch as a mass coordination problem solved
• [13:50] — Beauty contest and investment bubbles as common knowledge phenomena
• [20:02] — Toilet paper panic-buying during COVID
• [22:25] — How common knowledge forms (public information, euphemisms)
• [26:25] — Blushing and social signals as “common knowledge generators”
• [32:35] — Emily Labor Warren on time personality and cultural variation in punctuality
• [45:49] — Polychronic vs. monochronic approaches and implications for multitasking
• [51:38] — Tips for instantly improving a bad mood

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Memorable Moments & Takeaways

• Common knowledge isn’t just what most people know—it’s what everyone knows that everyone knows. This recursive awareness is vital for everything from traffic safety to financial markets.
• Social norms and even panics can arise “out of nothing,” proving that common knowledge has real, material consequences—a joke can cause a shortage if enough people take it seriously.
• Being late or punctual is not simply a matter of manners, but a deeply cultural—and even neurological—issue. Recognizing differences in how people experience time can improve relationships and reduce needless stress.
• In the end, context and compassion matter: adapt your 'time personality' as needed, and remember, sometimes it’s the small, shared rituals and expectations that keep society running smoothly.

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For further reading:

• Steven Pinker’s book: When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows
• Emily Labor Warren’s article: “Always Late? Blame Your Time Personality” (NYT — see show notes for link)

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Transcript

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know. Is it possible that you don't know what you really look like? Then we're gonna talk about common knowledge. It's an important part of everyday life.

[Steven Pinker]

Common knowledge refers to the case where I know something, you know it, I know that you know it, you know that I know it, I know that, you know that, I know that know it ad infinitum. The reason that it's interesting is that it's necessary for coordination for two people being on the same page.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also proven ways to snap out of a bad mood and a look at your time personality. Some of us are always punctual, while others are not.

[Emily Labor Warren]

There's a certain amount of stress that we add to our lives with this obsession with punctuality. Obviously there are moments when you know, look, you gotta make a train, right? You have to be on time. But there's so many other times when and it really doesn't matter.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Steven Pinker]

Yeah, common knowledge in the technical sense refers to the case where I know something, you know it, I know that you know it, you know that I know it, I know that you know that I know that you know it ad infinitum. And it's necessary. The reason that it's interesting is that it's necessary for coordination for two people being on the same page. It's, let's say we want a rendezvous and we don't have a way of generating common knowledge. That is, let's say our. My cell phone is dead. I have to figure out where you're going to go, but you and you have to figure out where I'm going to go, but you can't just figure out, say that my favorite place to go is, is Starbucks. Because I might be figuring out that your favorite place to go is, is Pete's. And then I might think, well, you know that I'm like to go to Starbucks. So actually you won't go to Pete's, you'll go to Starbucks. But then I think, well, you know that I know that you like to go to Pete's, so you'll probably go to Pete's after all. And nothing, nothing short of blurting it out, like getting a connection on our cell phone and saying it so that each one knows that the other one heard it. That's what's necessary to get us on the same page. That happens not just with everyday rendezvous, but in a lot of our large scale social coordination where everyone has to do the same thing as long as everyone knows that everyone else is doing it. Like, why do you accept a green piece of paper in exchange for an item of. Well, because you know that your grocer will give you some food in exchange for that piece of paper. And because they know that their suppliers will give them some food in exchange for that piece of paper. Everyone's got to know that. Everyone's got to know it. In the case of, say, a public convention like currency or driving on the right, it's not good enough to know that around here the law says drive on the right unless I know that everyone else knows that everyone else knows it. And that's what gives me the confidence. So coordination on large scales and small scales depends on common knowledge. And of course you get a headache if you try to think you know, well, does she know that I know that she knows that I know? I mean, none of us can really keep track of that. But when something is out there, when it's public, when it's conspicuous, when it's no longer a. A private secret, that's what really corresponds to our sense, our intuition, that something is common knowledge. Even if we don't think, think through all the layers, it's enough to know that everyone has seen it, and everyone has seen everyone see it.

[Mike Carruthers]

It's interesting. And driving on the right is such a good example of this because you have a lot at stake that everybody knows to drive on the right because it could kill you if everybody didn't know that, and apparently sometimes does. But we never stop to think, well, how did everyone get to know this? How does we all assume everyone knows, and we assume that they know that we know, but how did we get to that assumption?

[Steven Pinker]

Yeah, in some cases, just some public observation is enough. So you just, you see all the cars driving on the same side and you figure you may be wrong, but you figure that's just the way it's done around here. And I can confidently stay to the right even when I don't see any traffic and know that I won't be. Get an unpleasant surprise. And of course, that doesn't hold for. For walking down a. A stairway where sometimes people do collide, or in a narrow corridor or on a sidewalk where we don't observe the same convention. There's a joke about a woman who calls her husband on the morning commute and says, honey, be really careful. I was listening to the radio and they say there's a maniac driving on the wrong side of the freeway. And he says, one maniac. There are hundreds of them. So that joke shows that there are conventions that only work when everyone knows that they work. And sometimes they don't work. You know, I mentioned on sidewalks and corridors where there isn't that norm. Or even in the case of currency, which I just mentioned a minute ago, you can have hyperinflation where people no longer believe that currency has value and it stops having value because no one believes that it has value anymore. So common knowledge is essential, but it can be fragile. It exists in people's heads.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, you know what? I just. The experience I just had, I went to Costco. And because everybody drives on the right, there is sort of an assumption that people make that when you go up and down the aisles in a store, that you stay to the right as well, but there's no Harm typically, if you don't. So a lot of people don't. Well, not a lot of people. Enough people to disrupt, but a lot of people don't. And you can find yourself going up the wrong way. But who says it's the wrong way?

[Steven Pinker]

Yeah, because we have. When it comes to pedestrian traffic, we're kind of libertarians. It's like everyone could do what they want, which, you know, if you have to choose a side, probably in the United States, you'd veer to the right. But it's not a. It's not a strong norm. So some cases, things really are common knowledge. The whole country of Sweden faced the problem in the 60s. They drove on the left and they started to realize this is kind of a nuisance. We can't import cars from Germany, we can't export cars to the rest of Europe. And so they decided to switch to the right to join the rest of continental Europe and the United States. But then the problem is, how do you do it so that everyone does it at the same time? So they picked a moment, I think it was midnight on December 31, which popped out in everyone's minds, as that's the time not only when you do it. If it was November 14 at 3:27am you know, there could have been a lot of chaos when no one was even some people who kept track of it would have done it, but not everyone would know they were doing it. So they picked something that popped out that would be easy for everyone to remember and everyone to think. Everyone's obeying it. And it worked. The Swedes all switched over and no one got killed.

[Mike Carruthers]

How good are people in dealing with situations where there's a breakdown in common knowledge?

[Steven Pinker]

So let's go back to the original case of, say, two people who are separated. Let's say one of them, the cell phone goes dead. How do they find each other? Well, this goes back to an example, it's more than 60 years old, from Thomas Schelling in New York. A couple might both gravitate to the clock in the middle of Grand Central Station, even if it wasn't particularly close to where they were separated, simply because if you have to pick some place that's likely to pop into the mind of the other person, and more important, they think it'll pop into your mind for the same reason. You pick something that is unique, singular, but conspicuous. And there are experiments that show that people aren't bad at doing that. So if I say I want you to pick a number, any number, but here's the catch. There's someone else. I'm asking him to pick a number as well. If you pick the same number, then I'll give you $50. If you pick different numbers, neither of you gets anything. Now, in that case, you're not going to pick your favorite number, your lucky number. You're going to think, oh, geez, of all, you know, there's an infinite number of numbers. How am I going to pick one that the other guy is also going to pick when he tries to think of what I'm going to pick? And in that case, people tend to pick the number one just because it pops out. If you have to pick some number and you know that another person's got to pick some number, that's the one you pick. Now, the reason that this is important in everyday life, not just in these contrived cases, and even the contrived case of, you know, finding your spouse when your cell phone goes dead. In a famous analogy, the economist John Maynard Keynes imagined a beauty contest where the goal is not to pick the prettiest face from the six that are that are printed in the newspaper, but to pick the face that the most other people pick. All of them. Knowing that other people are trying to guess what other people are going to guess that other people are trying to guess. Again, you can say, well, who cares about that? That's such a fake example. Well, Keenan said. Keenan's noted it's not a fake example. That's kind of how investment works. A lot of times people buy a stock not because they think, well, the company is stamping out widgets and everyone wants to buy the widgets, but rather, if I buy it now, just think it might be worth so much more in a year from now. Because it's the greatest thing. It's the insanely great gadget. It's crypto. And everyone's. No one wants to be left out. There's a FOMO fear of missing out. And you can get bubbles and crashes and panics and bank runs when everyone is trying to outguess everyone else. A bank run is the opposite. It's, I better get my money out of the bank because other people are taking their money out of the bank because they're afraid that other people are taking their money out of the bank. And the bank doesn't have enough money to pay us to redeem all our savings, so I better rush and withdraw mine before it's too late. I mean, that's, that's how we got a Great Depression in 1929.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it seems a lot of things happen that way and I want to ask you about that. I'm talking with Steven Pinker. He is author of the book When Everyone Knows that Everyone knows. You know, I remember the first time I had to hire someone and I thought it would be quick and easy. But posting on random job boards and sorting through applications and waiting for the right person and it took forever. And I never thought I was very good at it. I really wish I'd had Indeed back then because they make hiring fast and simple. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Instead of struggling to get your job post noticed, Indeed's Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out. See, your post jumps right to the top for candidates you're looking for so you reach the right people faster. And it works. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs get 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. That's a big difference. What I love is how fast it is. In fact, in just the time I've been Talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed According to Indeed data worldwide. And with Sponsored Jobs, there's no monthly subscription, no long term contracts. You only pay for results. It's no wonder more than three and a half million employers worldwide use Indeed to hire great talent fast. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com something just go to Indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on something you should know indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. You know, it usually takes a lot for me to get excited about clothes shopping, but with fall and cooler weather coming, I'm actually looking forward to stocking up at Quince. See, they've become my go to for fall staples that actually last. Cashmere denim boots, you name it. The quality really holds up and the prices are a lot lower than you'd expect. You see, here's the thing. Shopping online, my biggest worry is always is it really gonna look and feel as good when it shows up as it did online? Well, with Quince, it always does. I've got a couple of their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They just start at 60 bucks and they are unbelievably soft. Their denim fits great and wears really well. And their leather jackets, I haven't bought one yet, but that clean, classic look without the big price tag is very enticing and What I love is that Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're getting top quality fabrics and craftsmanship for about half the price of the fancy brands. I've got polo shirts from them I practically live in and people ask me all the time where I got them. And I just ordered a new dress shirt. Look, if you want to keep it classic and cool this fall, upgrade with long lasting staples from Quince, go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.comsysk free shipping and 365 day returns at quince.comsysk so Stephen, when you were talking about what happened during the Great Depression, isn't that also true? Like when a hurricane hits and people rush to the store to buy toilet paper because they want to make sure they have toilet paper because they think everybody else is going to go run out and hoard a lot of toilet paper?

[Steven Pinker]

Exactly. It happened during COVID too. There wasn't any real shortage of toilet paper until people thought there might be a shortage. And they may not even have thought there's a shortage. They may have thought that other people might think there's a shortage. And so they ran out to hoard it. And that created the shortage. And that may have all begun back in the 70s, a period where there were shortages of occasionally of meat, of gasoline, of sugar. When Johnny Carson said on his opening monologue, and that was an era in which almost everyone watched Johnny Carson and everyone knew that everyone watch Johnny Carson and he made a joke about did you hear about the latest there's a shortage of toilet paper? Which turned out not to be true until he made the joke. And then there really was a shortage of toilet paper because everyone thought that everyone else thought there was. And ever since then there has been the rumor that toilet paper is something that is in short supply in an emergency. Another case is, and again, as we mentioned at the beginning, because you can't really think about other people thinking about what other people think, what other people think, what other people think. But it's enough for something to be public conspicuous out there. And you can, you just know that everyone knows that everyone knows. And that can happen. It happened when in, in the old era of three networks when almost everyone watched Johnny Carson. But it can also happen for some event like the super bowl where, you know, everyone knows that, you know, the country stops and because everyone's watching the Super Bowl. And when a couple of years ago when the cryptocurrency exchanges tried to gin up enthusiasm for buying crypto. They ran ads which didn't actually say what any advantage to crypto was. Like, well, you could buy, you know, drugs, you could buy guns. It'll be a hedge against hyperinflation. They didn't mention any of those. All they said was, you know, don't be like Larry David. Don't miss out. Everyone's doing it. The price will increase because everyone thinks that the price will increase, because other people think the price will increase. And it's not a coincidence they chose the super bowl to place those very expensive ads because a Super bowl is a common knowledge generator. Because everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone watches the Super Bowl.

[Mike Carruthers]

You wonder how some common knowledge gets to be common knowledge. Like somebody had to start it. How did it go from knowledge to common knowledge?

[Steven Pinker]

When something is blurted out in public and you hear it and you see that everyone else can hear it and can see that everyone else. That's enough to generate common knowledge. It's the intuition that something is out there. And that's why sometimes we try to keep prevent things from getting out there. We try not to notice the elephant in the room. We hint, we use euphemism, we use innuendo, we don't say things in so many words because once it is out there, what I would call common knowledge, everyone knows that everyone knows that can change everything, you know, And I think that's why when it comes to touchy subjects, we often don't go there, we don't say it. We use euphemisms and innuendos where everyone knows what it means, but they don't necessarily know that everyone else knows that they know. So, you know, want to come up for Netflix and chill? Well, you know, any grown woman knows what that means, but does she know that the guy knows that she knows? I mean, could she think, well, maybe he thinks I'm naive and he could think, well, maybe she thinks I'm dense. And so they're say, platonic friendship can survive. If he makes the hint and she rebuffs it.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, what's so interesting to me about common knowledge is it can be. When you think of knowledge, you think of something that is based in fact. Common knowledge can be created out of nothing, as evidenced by the toilet paper shortage during COVID There was no toilet paper shortage until people decided to make it up and believe there was. But there really wasn't. Only believing it made it so.

[Steven Pinker]

That's why one of the remedies was Grocery stores and drugstores posting signs saying, max one package per customer. That did two things. One of them is it prevented the shelves from being stripped bare because people couldn't buy that many. But the other thing is it reassured everyone that other people couldn't strip the shelves bare. And that's why it was important to post the sign. It would have been different if when you went to the checkout counter, they said, oh, I'm sorry, you can only buy one package. The fact that the signs were posted itself generated the common knowledge that there would not be a toilet paper run.

[Mike Carruthers]

Do you think this is human nature, that it's human nature for me to think there could be a toilet paper shortage? And so if you're going to buy it, I better buy it because I know that, you know. You know what I mean? Is that human nature or is that more of a cultural thing or what?

[Steven Pinker]

Well, I would say this is the part of human nature that makes culture possible. What is culture but commonly held beliefs and commonly held values and customs? You don't work on Sunday or Saturday, depending on what culture you belong to. You don't expose certain body parts in public. You take your turn and you queue up at the grocery store, at the bus stop. There are hundreds of these things that, that the police don't enforce. You do them because you know that everyone knows that that's what you do. And I think it's part of human nature that we can have common knowledge, but the particular common knowledge that we have is what defines one culture as opposed to another culture. And, you know, and sometimes these norms can change. It's often painful when they change, but that's how cultures change. Why we don't dress, we don't speak, we don't act the way that our grandparents did.

[Mike Carruthers]

Talk about how facial expressions, gestures, blushing. Maybe blushing is a good one to talk about how they fit into this discussion.

[Steven Pinker]

You know, we have a bunch of facial expressions. We smile, we frown, we look quizzical, but then there's blushing, where blood goes to our cheeks. Why is that a certain state of shame or embarrassment signaled in that way? And I think the reason is that blushing is a common knowledge generator. Namely, you feel the heat from the inside. At the same time you redden from the outside. And what makes blushing so painful is as you feel the heat, you know that other people know that you're blushing, and you know that they know that you know that you're blushing. So it's a common knowledge generator, as is. As are tears you're seeing the world through your own tears and other people can see the glistening or the trickle, laughter. Your speech has been interrupted, you're not breathing regularly, and other people can hear it. All these cases, you're recalibrating a social relationship. In the case of blushing, what you're doing is you're saying, I screwed up, I breached some social norm, but I'm not trying to get away with it. I know that I've screwed up. So I'm not a weirdo, I'm not a psychopath, I'm not a loose cannon, I'm not a lone wolf. I screwed up. I'm only human. Everyone screws up, but I know that I screw up. You and I hold the same norms. I think that's what blushing is for.

[Mike Carruthers]

And my understanding is that blushing, while it may be very embarrassing to the blusher, other people don't judge you harshly for blushing. And it sends a signal that they know that you know that you screwed up. And now I know that you know that I know that you screwed up. And so we're good. We're good.

[Steven Pinker]

Blushing is endearing. That's right. Even though it's painful to be the blusher, it actually raises your standing. And other people think better of you when you blush.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it's just so weird to think about all the things I know that I know you know that I know you know that I know. And yet we never talk about them, but we just did. I've been talking with Steven Pinker. He is a professor of psychology at Harvard University and author of the book When Everyone Knows that Everyone Common Knowledge and the Mysteries of Money, Power and Everyday Life. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Stephen, it was great to speak with you.

[Steven Pinker]

Thanks so much, Mike, for having me on.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Mike Carruthers]

There are two kinds of people in the world. People who are always on time and people who are chronically late and they often drive each other crazy. People who are punctual can't quite figure out why it is so hard to be on time. If you run late, well, just leave the house a little earlier. If you say you're going to be somewhere at 10 o', clock, you should be there at 10 o'. Clock. It's rude to be late. And people who are late wonder why punctual people are so hung up on punctuality, why their lives are ruled by the clock. So what's going on here? Well, that's what Emily Labor Warren is here to talk about. She wrote an article for the New York Times about this, and there's a link to her article in the Show Notes if you want to read it. Emily heads the Health and Science Reporting program at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York. She's been a staff editor at Popular Science, Scientific American Mind, and Women's Health. Hi Emily, welcome to something you should know.

[Emily Labor Warren]

Thank you so much.

[Mike Carruthers]

So I didn't really know this was a thing worth writing about for the New York Times. These differences in how people treat time and people's time personality. But clearly from reading the article it is something. So how did this come about?

[Emily Labor Warren]

So I was talking with a researcher at the University of Texas, Austin. Her name's Donna Ballard, and she studies chronomics, which is like, I didn't know there were people who studied chronomics, but it's really the study of time and how time affects the way we function. And she said something to me that kind of blew my mind, which was, time is not the clock. And I had never really thought about that. And she, you know, explained that if you think about it, we haven't had clocks for very long in the course of human history. And some hundreds of years ago, you couldn't say, I'll see you at 9am on the dot. You say, I'll see you in the morning. I'll see you when the sun is. Whatever. And so this intense obsession that we have with scheduling and promptness and all of that is really an industrial kind of thing that got me started.

[Mike Carruthers]

I remember hearing that one of the reasons, or one of the primary reasons that we became very obsessed about time and punctuality and things was trains. Because if the trains weren't on time and people weren't really keeping track of time, trains would crash into each other because they'd be on the same track at the same time. So we had to get that right.

[Emily Labor Warren]

Absolutely. And then, of course, time zones and all of those things that we had to create to make sure that times didn't get really weird. They couldn't be like 7pm and the sun was shining brightly or whatever. So, yeah, absolutely. I'm not an expert on time, but what really grabbed me about this story was that Dr. Ballard told me about a cultural anthropologist named Edward hall, who, back in the 1950s, he traveled a lot all over the world, and he noticed that there were certain cultures where people were very comfortable multitasking, like doing many things at once, not simultaneously, but more interleaving one thing with another. Interruptions were normal, not bothersome. They could carry on multiple conversations at once. They didn't. They kind of flowed from one task to another. And it was very different from what he was accustomed to, which is a more sort of Northern European, American, Canadian, what he ended up calling a monochronic society. You know, that's what we tend to be used to here. And it's where people are used to doing one thing at a time, checking them off their list. And interruptions are considered bothersome and not sort of a fun opportunity to, like, kind of shift gears in the middle and then get back to that Other thing later. So there's a cultural thing. He called it mono and polychronicity. So places in, and this is very, you know, general, but like Latin America, Africa, Middle east, he called those cultures more polychronic, as opposed to the monochronic cultures that we see like in the US but within each culture there's great variation for individuals. So even if you're born and bred in the United States, that doesn't mean that you personally are monochronic. And one of the things that's really interesting is how there is this great variation in how people relate to time and it causes so many conflicts between individuals. So that was one of the reasons, I think this article really caught people's attention, because most people have had that experience of being on one end or the other of this conflict about time.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I certainly have. I mean, I'm punctual. I show up on time and I expect other people to show up on time. And sure, there are times when people are late and I've been late. I mean, things do happen that get in the way. But I'm talking more about the people who are always late. You know, it just feels rude to me that if you make an agreement, it's an agreement. We're going to meet here at 9 o'. Clock. Well, if you don't show up at 9 o', clock, you stroll in at 9:30. Well, you've broken the agreement.

[Emily Labor Warren]

All right, well, let me see if I can say something that might shift your position a little. You know, your position is very standard in our culture, right, that, you know, time is money and people's, you know, respect for other people's time is really important and being late is a way of being disrespectful. However, in a more polychronic culture where people value the interactions that they're having with other people, the experiences they're having in the moment, it would be very rude to say to someone, hey, we're having this great conversation. Or I know we still haven't finished dessert, but like, I gotta run because I have an appointment with somebody else and I have to go. And you cut off a conversation interaction prematurely because you have another appointment. And you can imagine how in a certain mindset, a certain culture, that feels tremendously rude. Right. So I think, does that do anything for you to help you kind of at least open, not change, but open your mind to seeing it another way?

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, well, I see that as a point of view, but I don't see it as any more valid a point of view than my point of view because of what I said. It's an agreement. If you said, I might be a half an hour late, or even if you call and say, look, I'm running late, but if you just wander in 30, 45 minutes late because, well, it doesn't matter to you, well, then I don't see that as valid. Because the people who have this loose grip on time, who claim not to watch the clock, that it's not important to them. I bet when they have to catch a plane, then it's important to them. I bet you they show up on time at the airport because it's important to them.

[Emily Labor Warren]

You know, when I talked, like Dr. Ballard and other time experts, and they actually, they told me a story that Dr. Hall, you know, Edward hall, who was the father of this whole thing, he invented the terms, et cetera. He once intervened in a marriage where he knew a couple that were constantly at odds over punctuality. And he just kind of explained that it's not a matter of rudeness. It's really just a different relationship to time, a different way of prioritizing your life just to try and help them. It was kind of like an intervention. And apparently, I think it worked pretty well. Not that either of them was going to change or change their minds, but just to not be so offended by the other person, I think is kind of. I think that's the best we could get here.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, and I don't want to sound like I'm really strict on this. I don't get offended. I mean, I certainly notice it. And there are so many ways to mitigate whether somebody gets offended or not. And that is, as I said, like, call ahead. I'm running late. When people know that you're going to be late and that there's a reason why, that's a lot easier to take than, I don't care and I'll just wander in whenever I get there.

[Emily Labor Warren]

I mean, another way of looking at it is, you know, if I think of the many, many times that I have been sweating and stressing out because I was gonna be 3, 5, 10, 12 minutes late to something where, if you think about it, you know, it wasn't a big deal to be late. Just the fact that I knew that you or a person like you on the other end was gonna be really, like, annoyed or upset or judge me for it, There's a certain amount of stress that we add to our lives with this obsession with punctuality. Obviously, there are moments when you know, look, you got to make a train. You're going to a performance, right? You have to be on time. But there's so many other times when it really doesn't matter, you know, And I did speak to this woman who was so interesting. She didn't make it into the story just for length, but she's Caribbean American. She says everyone in her. She's American. You know, she's from the US but she's from Caribbean heritage, and most of her friends are black. And she's like, you know, in her social circle, there is no, like, I'm late. You know, she was so funny. She said, white people are always so, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. They're always, like, apologizing for being, like, three minutes late. And she says, you know, it's just befuddling to her. She was. She was, like, over an hour late to her own wedding. And she's, like, laughing because all of most of her guests arrived late because they knew that you weren't supposed to come on time. But she had this, you know, one couple that didn't realize that, and they were so confused when they got to the church and nobody was there yet. And then they said. But then all of a sudden, everybody started coming, and then you came, and it was all great. So it just kind of. And for her, you know, it's been really hard to kind of manage that when she's had to deal, you know, at school and work and the kind of punctuality that is expected. And she says it always, like, astounds her that, you know, a class begins on the dot. You know, like, she shows up for a class at, you know, a 10:00am class, and it starts at 10. She's like, why don't they start at 1005 or 10:06? Like, isn't there some. She started to help me see that it could be seen as harsh to be absolutely punctual. She's like, you know, what if someone needs to get a, you know, a drink of water? You know, you know, their trainer was a little late. Like, can't there be a little bit of give and that. I actually. I'm a teacher, so I actually have thought about that because I've definitely had periods where I started every class, like, punctually on time. Exactly. And now I feel like, oh, those first few minutes could be used in a very different way of just kind of chatting or letting the students chat and just, you know, easing into things. So I definitely learned a lot from the Reporting.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I get that and I understand that there is what you just said. There are degrees of this. Who cares if you're three minutes late? I don't care. You might care if you're trying to catch a plane and the plane left. And people who are not punctual find a way to be punctual so they don't miss their plane or their train. So they know how to do it. They just don't do it sometimes and do it others. But, you know, I think most people don't care if you're three minutes late. And who's ever thrown a party where somebody shows up? Like when the party starts at 7, nobody shows up till 7:30. And yeah, that's kind of the way it is, right.

[Emily Labor Warren]

If you show up on time, it's kind of rude to a party. So I think that's a place where people who are on more of the monochronic side of things can kind of get it that like, there's times where being on time is actually kind of rude unless you showed up to help prepare.

[Mike Carruthers]

So I want to understand, because I get that, you know, there are people who don't live by the clock. They don't mind if things are a little late. But you live in a world with a lot of people who do mind when things are a little late. And real problems can happen. If you and I are going to meet for lunch and I only have a half an hour to eat because of my job, and you show up 20 minutes late, well, we only have 10 minutes, so we can't eat. So how do people who are looser with time make it okay in their head that the other person might just. It's just. That's too bad.

[Emily Labor Warren]

I don't think anyone. So the person who I was, you know, who I mentioned before, who was late to her own wedding, some people don't mind. Like she says, in her social circle, there is no such thing as being late. Like, you show up when you show up and it's fine, you know. And I think she was talking more about maybe like social events where it's more than one person, you know, party or something like that. But there's just. People aren't. Don't. People don't fume or feel upset if someone comes a half hour late. You know, I guess if it's freezing cold and you're on a street corner, maybe. But so much of the time it's not like that. You're at a restaurant, you can just sit and chill out, read your book or whatever it is, and the person comes when they come, and it's not a big deal. So I think it goes both ways.

[Mike Carruthers]

But someone listening to this conversation might think. It doesn't sound like it's both ways. It sounds like you're making the case that people who are punctual need to lighten up, loosen up. So what if people are late? No big deal. You need to change. I'm not hearing a lot about, well, maybe people who are late a lot ought to try a little harder to be on time. I mean, it seems like there should be a compromise.

[Emily Labor Warren]

Agreed, Agreed. And the thing that might be getting lost in this conversation is that it's not all about promptness and punctuality. It's about how you prefer to conduct your life. Are you someone who wants to do one thing, complete it, and move on to the next thing? Because that's part of it. It's not all about being on time or being late. It's sort of about a preference. Do you want to delve into one thing until it's done and finish it and then move on? Or are you someone who likes to kind of dip into something and then put it aside and dip into something else and kind of get back and sort of feel flow in between tasks? And there have been some really cool studies showing that for people who are monochronic, if you give them, like, puzzles to do, they're going to excel. If you are basically like, you have eight minutes to do this puzzle, and now you have eight minutes to do the next, and then you have eight minutes to do the third. But if someone is polychronic, they're going to do the puzzles better. If you're like, okay, you have three minutes on this one. Now you're moving to the second one. Then you move into the third one, you're coming back to the first one for another four minutes or whatever, and you allow them to kind of drift back and forth between the tasks, and they tend to be more successful at puzzle solving that way. So it's really just a recognition that people's minds work differently, and some people are cool with interruptions. And. Yeah, I mean, it's. It's not good to be late. I don't think anyone thinks it's great to be late. I think the idea is that there are cultures where lateness isn't a thing, the way we think about it, and it's helpful to realize that it is cultural.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it's interesting about the puzzles and things because I think of Myself as somebody who likes to do things well, it's situational. So in my work, when I put this podcast together, this is my full time job, I have noticed that if I get interrupted a lot, it takes a long time to get back to where I was, that I have to kind of rebuild where I was if I get interrupted. So I prefer not to get interrupted. But in other parts of my life, I'm fine with go with the flow. Interrupt me here. Oh, let's switch gears here. It really depends on what I'm doing as to how I would do that.

[Emily Labor Warren]

Yeah, I love that you said that. And that's actually one of the pieces of advice in the article is really that these time styles are preferences. They're not traits. Everyone can. It might not be comfortable, but we all can sort of do the other thing or do the thing that's a little bit different from our natural and that sometimes the best thing to do is. What you just said is think about the context. What's the goal? If the goal is just to have fun and make friends, then you kind of can be in a polychronic frame of mind. But if you're at work and you have stuff to get done and you just need to nail it down, then get into a monochronic more state of mind.

[Mike Carruthers]

And I would imagine that the people who don't mind being later or don't see a problem with it are also the ones who can mix and match those puzzles around and not do them one at a time in a linear F fashion.

[Emily Labor Warren]

Yeah, correct. Those are the things that go together. Right. If you're polychronic, you tend to be comfortable just, you know, moving between tasks. Maybe you feel more creative. There's also, yeah, you'll be more creative, more productive. And then, you know, for monochronic people and one of the time experts I spoke to for the story is herself, you know, very monochronic. Actually two of them were very monochronic. And she loves her monochronicity. She loves, you know, she says that the beauty of it is that you delve deep. You know, you rule out distractions. You can really dive into something with your whole self and get lost in it and become expert in it. And it's this real desire to kind of become one with the task. And she loves that. But ironically or just interestingly, she studies work teams. She studies the way that like high pressure teams function. And she told me about a time when she was allowed to sit and watch the air traffic controllers at the Houston airport as they were bringing planes in for landings. And she said it was absolutely amazing to watch them, you know, with such ease, like go from one plane to another, yell, you know, bark this command, move this over here, tell this person that, right? They were going back and forth in this very high pressure way. And she said it was almost like a ballet, you know, to see really polychronic people when they are in their, you know, in their element, doing their thing and doing a job that's truly polychronic and that requires that. So she has full respect for it. But she herself is monochronic and loves.

[Mike Carruthers]

It, as am I. But I don't know if I love it. I think it's just the way I'm wired. But I think the important takeaway from this discussion is to realize that other people are wired differently and we all got to get along. I've been speaking with Emily Labor Warren. She heads the Health and Science reporting program at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City of New York, and she wrote an article that got quite a bit of attention about this called Always late. Blame your time personality. If you'd like to read the article that was in the New York Times, there is a link to it in the show notes for this episode. Emily, thank you.

[Emily Labor Warren]

Okay. Happy to do it. Thank you so much, Mike. It's good to talk to you.

[Mike Carruthers]

Whenever you're feeling grumpy, moody, or just having a bad day. Here are some ways to cheer up fast. Have some tea. Simple pleasures really do go a long way. A study in food quality and preferences found that drinking a cup of tea provides an instant shot of feel good work out while watching a show. In research from the Journal of Sports, Science and Medicine, people who enjoyed watching TV while walking on a treadmill for 10 minutes had double the mood boost than people who exercised without distraction. Reach out to someone just chatting face to face or even online reduced participants bad mood. In research published in Computers and Human Behavior, Humans are an intensely social species. We need to seek and maintain at least a few positive social relationships. Order takeout Choosing what's for dinner can make you moody if you're already stressed. So an easier option would be to order takeout and then you don't get moodier. And that is something you should know. I hope you found this episode entertaining, enlightening, and fun. And I bet you know people that would feel the same way. So please share this episode with someone you know and that helps us boost our audience and then everybody's happy. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. And Doug.

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