The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap

Summary

Something You Should Know: Episode Summary

Title: The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Host: Mike Carruthers | OmniCast Media
Guests:

• Godfrey Pearlson: Psychiatric Researcher, Physician, Yale Neuroscience Professor, Author of The Science of Weed: An Indispensable Guide to Cannabis.
• Ilana Redstone: Professor of Sociology at the University of Illinois, Author of The Certainty Trap: Why We Need to Question Ourselves More and How We Can Judge Others Less.

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1. Introduction

In this episode of "Something You Should Know," host Mike Carruthers delves into two intriguing subjects: the disparity in how often women and men apologize, and the multifaceted science behind marijuana use. Additionally, the episode explores the psychological concept of the "certainty trap," which affects interpersonal and societal interactions.

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2. The Apology Gap: Women Apologize More Than Men

Mike Carruthers opens the discussion by addressing the phenomenon where women tend to apologize more frequently than men. Referencing a study published in the journal Psychological Science, Mike shares that:

• Statistics: Over 12 days, women apologized 217 times, while men apologized 158 times.
• Insight: The study authors concluded that men are just as willing to apologize as women. However, men have a higher threshold for what bothers them.

Mike explains, “We tend to apologize for something we feel might be offensive or hurtful. Men and women in general have different levels of sensitivity. A woman might snap at a friend and feel bad and then apologize, while a man might just think, no big deal, he'll get over it” ([03:36]).

Key Takeaway: The difference in apology frequency stems from varying emotional sensitivities and thresholds between genders rather than willingness to apologize.

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3. The Objective Science of Marijuana: Insights with Godfrey Pearlson

Introduction of Guest:
Mike introduces Godfrey Pearlson, a Yale neuroscience professor and author, to provide an objective analysis of marijuana. Godfrey clarifies the terminology and history:

• Definitions:
  • Cannabis: The plant species Cannabis sativa, historically used for food, fibers, and as an intoxicant.
  • Marijuana: A slang term with pejorative connotations, often associated with negative stereotypes.

Godfrey emphasizes the preference for the term "cannabis" within the research community to maintain scientific objectivity ([05:33]).

Historical Context:
Marijuana's societal perception has evolved:

• Early 19th Century: Napoleon's soldiers introduced cannabis to France for recreational use among European elites ([07:07]).
• Early 20th Century: Mexican immigrants introduced marijuana to the U.S., associating it with working-class recreational use ([07:57]).

Current Usage Statistics:
Godfrey states that approximately 15% of the U.S. population used marijuana in the last week, and about 45-50% of adults have tried it at some point in their lives. It remains the most commonly used illicit substance in the U.S. and Europe ([08:11]).

Dangers and Risks:
Godfrey outlines known and suspected risks associated with marijuana use:

• Cannabis Use Disorder: Addiction with withdrawal symptoms making cessation difficult.
• Psychosis in Teens: High-THC cannabis use increases the risk of schizophrenia and similar disorders, potentially tripling the odds ([11:31]).
• Motor Vehicle Accidents: Cannabis impairs driving differently than alcohol, leading to increased crash risks but less impulsivity ([24:35]).
• Other Risks: Potential links to heart attacks, strokes, and certain cancers, though these are less certain ([13:19]).

Potency and Genetics:
Modern cannabis strains are more potent due to selective breeding, increasing THC levels while decreasing CBD, which can moderate THC's effects ([13:19]).

Gateway Drug Debate:
Godfrey refutes the gateway drug theory, stating there's an association but no causation. Most individuals progressing to harder drugs initially use substances like alcohol and tobacco rather than marijuana ([19:44]).

Medicinal Uses:
Contrary to the perception that marijuana has no benefits, Godfrey points out medicinal applications:

• CBD: Approved by the FDA for treating childhood epilepsy, it offers anxiety relief without psychoactive effects.
• THC: Potential pain relief, though more rigorous studies are needed.

Social Policy and Public Perception:
Public support for marijuana legalization has grown, influenced by increased usage, skepticism towards anti-cannabis propaganda, and economic incentives for states through taxation ([09:15]). Godfrey advocates for sensible social policies to manage drug use and mitigate harms, drawing parallels with alcohol regulation in Scotland ([22:14]).

Notable Quotes:

• Godfrey Pearlson ([16:24]): “If you have to pick among your recreational drugs, and most people do, then in many respects cannabis is a safer drug than alcohol.”
• Godfrey Pearlson ([20:32]): “When epidemiologists have looked at people who use cannabis regularly, you'd expect that they would be couch potatoes… But in fact, the average user loses a small amount of weight for reasons that we don't quite understand.”

Key Takeaways:

• Marijuana's societal perception has shifted significantly, with increased acceptance and recognition of its medicinal benefits.
• The risks associated with marijuana use are nuanced, varying by age, frequency, and potency of use.
• Policy and education should focus on harm reduction and informed usage rather than blanket prohibition.

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4. Understanding the Certainty Trap: Conversations with Ilana Redstone

Introduction of Guest:
Ilana Redstone, a sociology professor, discusses the "certainty trap," a psychological phenomenon characterized by moral outrage and contempt for opposing viewpoints.

Defining the Certainty Trap:
Ilana explains, “The certainty trap is the feeling of moral outrage, righteous indignation, contempt for somebody who disagrees, particularly on a heated or contentious topic” ([30:19]). This occurs when individuals treat their knowledge and beliefs as definitive rather than provisional.

Human Nature and Judgments:
While making judgments is inherent to human behavior, the certainty trap exacerbates divisions:

• Example of Parenting Dispute: Ilana narrates a scenario where initial judgments about a friend's marital conflict were later reassessed upon understanding underlying concerns, illustrating the pitfalls of snap judgments ([35:45]).

Impact on Society:
The certainty trap contributes to:

• Political Polarization: Strengthening of partisan divides.
• Social Trust Erosion: Decreased willingness to engage constructively with differing opinions.

Role of Social Media:
Ilana attributes the rise in the certainty trap partially to social media platforms that reward outrage, incentivizing users to adopt more extreme stances to gain engagement ([40:29]).

Strategies to Mitigate the Certainty Trap:
Ilana proposes conscious efforts to destabilize certainty:

1. Perspective-Taking: Challenge oneself to understand and articulate the opposing viewpoint without assumptions about intent ([46:29]).
2. Question Assumptions: Evaluate whether disagreements stem from malice, misinformation, or differing value systems.
3. Clarify Core Principles: When disagreements are intractable, identify and communicate the fundamental principles driving one's stance to foster mutual understanding ([35:01]).

Notable Quotes:

• Ilana Redstone ([32:54]): “It's asking people to do something that does go against arguably human nature. It feels good to be morally outraged.”
• Ilana Redstone ([42:21]): “It's the idea that the person who disagrees with me must be an idiot or hateful in some way.”

Key Takeaways:

• The certainty trap intensifies conflicts by eliminating the space for nuanced discussions.
• Social and personal strategies are essential to navigate and reduce the impacts of the certainty trap.
• Promoting empathy and understanding can bridge gaps in polarized environments.

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5. Conclusion

This episode of "Something You Should Know" offers comprehensive insights into human behavioral patterns and societal issues. From understanding gender differences in apologies to dissecting the complexities of marijuana use and the psychological barriers in the certainty trap, listeners are equipped with knowledge to navigate personal and societal challenges more effectively.

Final Thoughts:
Mike Carruthers emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and open-mindedness, encouraging listeners to share the podcast and engage in informed discussions.

Resources:

• The Science of Weed: An Indispensable Guide to Cannabis by Godfrey Pearlson
• The Certainty Trap: Why We Need to Question Ourselves More and How We Can Judge Others Less by Ilana Redstone

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Godfrey Pearlson ([05:33]): “Marijuana is a slang word that was used by Mexicans... used in a pejorative sense, like these evil marijuana uses are corrupting our youth.”
• Mike Carruthers ([03:10]): “Today on something you should know the interesting reason women apologize a lot more than men then an objective look at marijuana...”
• Ilana Redstone ([30:19]): “The certainty trap is the feeling of moral outrage, righteous indignation, contempt for somebody who disagrees...”

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions presented in the episode, providing a valuable resource for those seeking to understand these complex topics.

Transcript

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know the interesting reason women apologize a lot more than men then an objective look at marijuana. What it is, how it's changed and who uses it.

[Godfrey Pearlson]

About 15% of the U.S. population have used in the last week and about 45 to 50% of adults. We're talking about adults here in both cases say they've tried at some point in their life. It's the most common used illicit substance in the US and Europe at the moment.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, something important your furnace really wants you to do and the dangers of falling into the certainty trap.

[Brand Voice]

And what that means is it's the feeling of moral outrage, righteous indignation, contempt for somebody who disagrees, particularly on a heated or contentious topic.

[Mike Carruthers]

All this today on something you should know.

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[Ad Voice]

Something you should know. Fascinating intel the World's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today.

[Mike Carruthers]

Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. If you're looking for a really good podcast episode to listen to, I'd say you've come to the right place. Welcome to something you should know. And we start today with apologies. Perhaps you have apologized to someone today, or someone has apologized to you for some reason. It's a proven fact that women apologize more than men.

[Advertiser Voice]

So why would that be?

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, a study in the journal Psychological Science found that over the course of 12 days, women apologized 217 times, men apologized just 158 times. The authors of the study concluded that men were actually just as willing to apologize as women. The difference was that men had a higher threshold for what bothered them. We tend to apologize for something we feel might be offensive or hurtful. Men and women in general have different levels of sensitivity. A woman might snap at a friend and feel bad and then apologize, while a man might just think, no big deal, he'll get over it. And that is something you should know. Say the word marijuana to people and you'll hear a lot of opinions. Some people believe it's benign, nothing wrong with it, it's less dangerous than alcohol. And after all, almost half the states in the US have legalized recreational use of marijuana. Other people will say it's a gateway drug. It damages your brain and affects your behavior in a negative way. I'm sure you've heard all of this before, but what is the objective truth about marijuana? What does the science say about it? That is what Godfrey Pearlson is here to reveal. He is a psychiatric researcher, physician, and Yale neuroscience professor. He's also author of a book called the Science of Weed An Indispensable Guide to Cannabis. Hi Godfrey, welcome to something you should know.

[Godfrey Pearlson]

Mike, very good to be with you. Thank you.

[Mike Carruthers]

So we have two words that get used a lot referring to marijuana, marijuana and cannabis. And they're two different words, so I suspect they mean two different things. But could you clear that up for me? Are they synonymous or do they mean different things?

[Godfrey Pearlson]

Cannabis is a plant, cannabis sativa, that grows in the wild but has been cultivated by humans for thousands of years, initially for food, then for fibers, hemp to make ropes, strong ropes, and then later as an intoxicant. Marijuana is something that was first used in the early part of the 20th century. And marijuana is a slang word that was used by Mexicans, spelt with an H rather than a J and it was re spelled with a J and used In a pejorative sense, like these evil marijuana uses are corrupting our youth. So because of those connotations, a lot of people in the cannabis research field prefer to use the term cannabis rather than marijuana.

[Mike Carruthers]

So how long? Oh, before I ask that, let me just mention that as you're listening to.

[Advertiser Voice]

This, as Godfrey is speaking, if you hear these little pops and clicks, it's in the audio. We have tried everything to get rid of it. Can't get rid of it. It's not too bad or distracting, but that's what it is, and we're moving on with it. So, Godfrey, how long has marijuana been a thing in society where, hey, these kids over here are smoking it? When did it become kind of not mainstream, but the fringes of mainstream, where people started using it to get high? And those were those kids, and it came with a label. When did all that start?

[Godfrey Pearlson]

The way this progressed is that Napoleon's soldiers were in Egypt around 1810. Alcohol was not available because of the culture, but cannabis was. So Napoleon's soldiers began using it. Some of them brought it back to France. So it spread among the elites in Europe as a kind of drug for upper class people to use for amusement at parties, and then gradually spread to some individuals in the U.S. it wasn't until around 1900, when waves of Mexican immigrants came to the country as laborers, that they introduced it as a drug that was used by working class individuals for recreation, and that spread to American youth gradually.

[Advertiser Voice]

So do you have. Do you have at your fingertips or off the top of your head, you know, the numbers of, like, how many people use marijuana or have tried it or, you know, just kind of. To frame the picture here, about 15%.

[Godfrey Pearlson]

Of the US population have used in the last week, and about 45 to 50% of adults. We're talking about adults here, in both cases say they've tried at some point in their life. So this is a very prevalent drug. It's the most commonly used illicit substance in the US And Europe at the moment.

[Advertiser Voice]

Before we go any further, I want to try to get a reading on.

[Mike Carruthers]

You just for transparency's sake. I think it would be good to.

[Advertiser Voice]

Know that, yes, you're a researcher and.

[Mike Carruthers]

A scientist and all that, but where do you stand on this issue?

[Advertiser Voice]

Are you pro marijuana? Do you think it's not so good? Are you somewhere down the middle or where.

[Godfrey Pearlson]

I'd say I'm down the middle. I grew up in the 60s, so I was exposed both to the drug and the propaganda from both sides about it. And I'm a naturally skeptical person. So if something has a good side and a bad side, I'm not going to try and minimize one or exaggerate the other.

[Mike Carruthers]

The image of marijuana has certainly changed over the last several decades when, you know, in the 50s and 60s it was associated with hippies and it had this kind of horrible connotation that if you smoked marijuana, this was horrible, it was illegal, you could go to jail, it's going to ruin your brain. And over time, it's gotten much more socially acceptable. But if it was so bad, then why is it not so bad now?

[Godfrey Pearlson]

You're correct. A plurality of the US adult population now supports legalizing recreational cannabis. More people and in fact support same sex marriage. So that's been quite a journey from Nixon in the 70s to the present. And I'd attribute that to a few reasons. One is that people have used it and tried it and found that it had few ill effects. A second thing is that the anti cannabis movement and Just say no and DARE and similar initiatives so overstated the case against cannabis and demonized it to such an extent that it was clear that much of what they were saying was incorrect. So people became skeptical of the marijuana is bad message. The other thing is adequacy. First of all on the part of users, but secondly on the part of business in terms of companies that want to make a profit from selling cannabis. What people call cannabis or big cannabis, analogous to big Tobacco. And the other is states in the US that want to have a sin tax and balance their budgets by selling cannabis in dispensaries that they can tax. So I think it's a combination of all of those things.

[Advertiser Voice]

What are the dangers of marijuana? Because we've heard for so long it's a gateway drug that, you know, usually you look at people who are on much more serious drugs and really hooked. They started with marijuana. What are the real dangers to marijuana use?

[Godfrey Pearlson]

Well, some are clearly known and others are suspected but unclear because not enough research has been done. But the real risks are cannabis use disorder. Basically, people become addicted to the drug and suffer moderately severe withdrawal symptoms when they quit. So they find it difficult to quit. For teens, the main risk is psychosis. So teenage individuals who smoke high potency cannabis that contains a lot of THC and smoke it often have an increased risk for developing schizophrenia and allied psychotic illnesses. It's not exactly clear what the magnitude of that risk is, but may raise the odds to maybe three or four times what you'd expect in the population. Then there are risks from motor Vehicle accidents and drivers. Again, compared to alcohol, those risks are not huge, but they're significant. And probably in older people there are risks of falls. Just because cannabis does lead to gait instability. Then there are suggestions that it may raise the risk for heart attack and stroke in older individuals and possibly raise the risk for certain kinds of cancers. But that's very, very uncertain, in part because people tend in some cases to smoke cannabis alongside tobacco. I'll use it with other substances. And it's hard from an epidemiologic point of view to separate those things.

[Advertiser Voice]

I have heard that the marijuana that kids smoked in the 60s is very different and much less potent than the marijuana today. Is that a fair statement?

[Godfrey Pearlson]

That is a fair statement. So the cannabis we have today is a triumph of selective breeding. Essentially, growers, mainly in California, develop stronger and stronger strains of cannabis to contain more and more thc. And as part of the genetics of the cannabis plant, the more THC you produce, the less CBD there is in there to counterbalance it so that we have more tetrahydrocannabinol, the chemical in the cannabis plant that is mostly responsible for getting as high, and less of the CBD that may offset THC's effects. But just as a caveat, if people switch from near beer to whiskey, they don't drink pints of near beer, so they want to get high. So they smoke enough of the cannabis to get them high. So if there's more THC in the plant, then they'll smoke less of it.

[Advertiser Voice]

So it sounds like, because we also hear about medicinal marijuana, that kind of legitimizes, oh, well, maybe it could be good for you, but it doesn't sound like it's good for you. I mean, that, all things being equal, you're better off not smoking it than smoking it. It doesn't do anything for you.

[Godfrey Pearlson]

I'd actually push back on that because if we think about other substances that tend to be abused, many of them are analogous to cannabis in that they have a good side and a dark side. So opioids are still used widely for pain control. In fact, they're the go to drug for severe acute pain, even in hospitals and orthopedic clinics. And cocaine is still used in eye drops and as an anesthetic drug. So the fact that a substance is abused in some cases and has ill effects isn't to say that it doesn't also have good effects. And there is a medicinal side to cannabis and cannabis derivatives. So, for example, CBD that we spoke about, one of the main constituents of the cannabis plant doesn't get people high, but it does have psychoactive effects in calming anxiety, and that was recently approved for use by the Federal Drug Administration for treating childhood epilepsy. And THC in cannabis may be an effective pain reliever, although the key experiments to look at that in chronic pain have yet to be done in a proper double blind, placebo controlled way. So there may be medicinal benefits to the cannabis plant that are quite separate than its effects as a recreational drug.

[Advertiser Voice]

But if you're just hanging around with your buddies saying, why don't we smoke some marijuana or maybe we should just go read a book, you probably should go read a book.

[Godfrey Pearlson]

Yeah, I'd agree with that. But there's a human urge that's built into most of us to alter our mental state, and people have been doing this for millennia, either with mushrooms or with alcohol. So if you have to pick among your recreational drugs, and most people do, then in many respects cannabis is a safer drug than alcohol.

[Mike Carruthers]

We are talking about marijuana and we're talking with Godfrey Pearlson. He's a psychiatric researcher and author of the book the Science of An Indispensable Guide to Cannabis. Dell Technologies Black Friday event is live and if you've been waiting for an AI ready PC, this is their biggest sale of the year. Tech enthusiasts love this sale because it's all the newest hits plus all the greatest hits all on sale at once. Savings on Dell technologies most popular PCs that accelerate AI with Intel Core Ultra processors are here, like the XPS 16. So if you're ready to step up all the things you like to do, streaming, surfing, multitasking, whatever, Dell Technologies AI Ready PCs are the perfect upgrade. And for the best of Intel Core Ultra processors, look for Intel EVO Edition laptops engineered to do it all. Just visit Dell.com deals whether you're treating yourself or thinking of others, these Black Friday prices were worth the wait. But it's only for a limited time. Shop [e-mail] deals. You know, today anyone can sell anything online and if you use Shopify to do it, you are setting yourself up for success. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Whether you're just setting up shop or you have a physical store, or even if you've had a million orders or more, Shopify will help you grow your business. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers. They have the Internet's best converting checkout 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And what I love about Shopify and what you can see when you peek inside. No matter how big or small you are, Shopify offers everything to manage and control your business. And what's really great is you don't need to know anything about web design or coding or anything. Plus, Shopify's award winning help is there to support you every step of the way. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase go to shopify.comsysk to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.comSYSK so Godfrey, one of the criticisms of marijuana has always been that it is a gateway drug, that people who end up on harder drugs will frequently tell you that they started with marijuana. And is that a fair criticism?

[Godfrey Pearlson]

There's an association, but correlation isn't the same as causation, so that nearly everybody who uses harder drugs also started on alcohol and tobacco. So people who are risk takers are going to try what's out there. And I think it's fair to say that the majority of people who try recreational cannabis do not progress to more addictive or more harmful drugs. So epidemiologically there's solid evidence for that. So the joke that I hear from my cannabis using research subjects is if cannabis is a gateway drug, it's a gateway to your refrigerator because of the munchies.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, what about the munchies?

[Godfrey Pearlson]

When epidemiologists have looked at people who use cannabis regularly, you'd expect that they would be couch potatoes who are eating snack foods and eating Cheetos and Doritos while watching TV or playing video games and gaining lots of weight. But in fact, the average user loses a small amount of weight for reasons that we don't quite understand.

[Advertiser Voice]

Since the rules have changed and loosened up, I would assume that attitudes have as well. Have there been surveys like what do people think about this topic? Is there still a big push to keep it outlawed? Or have people said, yeah, whatever, partly.

[Godfrey Pearlson]

That'S a generational effect, but exactly as you say, attitudes have shifted. And the modal attitude now in surveys is that cannabis is a safe drug with no harms. Which is quite incorrect since, as you and I have discussed, there definitely are harms that should not just be disregarded. But people have convinced themselves in general in the US population that cannabis is harmless, so that women, for example, feel increasingly comfortable using it to combat nausea and vomiting in pregnancy, which I think is a horrible decision. Or teenagers feel that it's a safe drug to use, which again in that particular group who's at risk for psychotic symptoms, again, is a very bad decision. We just have to not exaggerate the risks though, because scare tactics don't work.

[Advertiser Voice]

Yeah, well, it sounds like what you're saying is much like someone in your position would talk about alcohol like it's not going to go anywhere. So it's here. So let's maybe take a more grown up approach to it rather than try to hide it under the rug and pretend it's horrible and not here. Because it is here and people use it. A lot of people use it.

[Godfrey Pearlson]

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And people have taken risk mitigation strategies to reduce the harms of alcohol very consciously in terms of social engineering. So, for example, in Scotland there were problems with drunkenness and intrafamilial abuse and fights and so on, violence that were directly attributable to excessive alcohol use. And alcohol was readily available cheaply in very large containers in supermarkets. So the Scottish authorities decided to put a hefty tax on that. So alcohol was less available and all of those statistics on fights and violence within a year, dramatically reduced. So just by social, sensible social policies and controlling price points, you can have a huge effect on what people use. The other side of that though is if you price the drug out of the market, people just go back to dealers and away from dispensaries and away from a supply of cannabis that's been vetted in some way in terms of content and contaminants. So you can't push too hard on that. Nevertheless, social policy can really control drug use and moderate harms.

[Advertiser Voice]

Talk about what marijuana does to people, particularly for people who have never smoked it. You might assume that it's analogous to drinking alcohol, but you know, when people drink, people react differently. There are mean drunks and happy drunks. And what is it that marijuana does to you? Or is it like that where it depends on who you are and it does different things? For those people who haven't tried it, what would they get if they did?

[Godfrey Pearlson]

Again, that's a really interesting question. I'm glad you brought that up. With any substance that has psychoactive effects, there are huge inter individual differences. So most people who use cannabis will recreationally will just have a sense of pleasant relaxation, they'll chill out, they'll relax, they may become more reflective, feel they're being more creative, they'll become more giggly and find things funny or silly and their sense of time will be distorted. So musicians who like to improvise find cannabis a useful drug because they can see the space in between the notes. So there are positive effects. But for some people it's a drug that immediately produces anxiety and in some cases paranoia. And they're people who are not repeat customers. People who get anxious and paranoid are just not going to use the drug again. But it's not like there are mean drugs. People may become disinhibited, but it's not a drug that generally provokes violence in the way that alcohol does. That's less of an association with cannabis. It doesn't increase impulsivity to the degree that alcohol does. So for example, we've done experiments where we've challenged people with either alcohol acutely or cannabis acutely in the lab and have them drive on a driving simulator. People who are mildly drunk with a blood alcohol concentration of about 0.1 will speed up on corners and drive really fast and ignore warnings, whereas people who are intoxicated on cannabis will weave more, be aware that they're intoxicated and drive a bit more slowly. So they're still involved more in crashes, but not nearly as much as alcohol, and for very different reasons because different drugs have different psychological effects on people, as you intuited.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I have certainly learned more from this discussion about marijuana than I ever knew before. I'm not someone who partakes, so I haven't had the big urge to understand it and research it and learn more about it.

[Advertiser Voice]

But I know an awful lot of.

[Mike Carruthers]

People who take it and who like it. So I'm glad we had this discussion so I could learn more about it. Gottfried Pearlson has been my guest. He is a psychiatric researcher, physician and neuroscience professor at Yale University and author of the book the Science of An Indispensable Guide to Cannabis. And there is a link to his book in the show notes. Thank you for coming on today and talking about this, Godfrey.

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[Mike Carruthers]

There is a feeling. I know you have felt. It is that feeling you get when you know you're right, even though there may be another side to the story. You are without a doubt certain in your position. Nothing could change your mind. You might even be outraged that other people think you're wrong because you in fact, know they're wrong. I can't imagine not having had that feeling at some point in your life. And that feeling is what we're about to discuss with Ilana Redstone. She's a professor of sociology at the University of Illinois and author of the book the Certainty why we need to Question Ourselves more and how we can judge Others less. Hi Ilana, welcome to something you should know.

[Brand Voice]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So let's start by you expanding on what I just said about the certainty trap and what it is exactly.

[Brand Voice]

The easiest way to understand the certainty trap is to think about how we feel when we're in it. And what that means is it's the feeling of moral outrage, righteous indignation, contempt for somebody who disagrees, particularly on a heated or contentious topic. And that comes from a couple of different things, including treating our knowledge, sort of what we know, as definitive rather than provisional. It can come from treating our preferred, say, policy as having all benefits and no costs, treating complex situations as though they're simple. Any and all of the above are.

[Advertiser Voice]

Just examples being certain about some things seems like it would be a good idea because you can't wonder and think, well, what about what? On everything. You have to. I mean, I'm pretty certain my pen is blue. I'm not really going to debate that with you.

[Brand Voice]

I think that's right. I think that there's no reason that we should all be wandering around just in some kind of philosophical stupor all day. And so there are things that are just. They're not worth debating. And so one of the distinctions, I think that's important here is the certainty and then the trap. So the trap part is the contempt because of the implications that it has for our. Particularly for our political conversation. But not all certainty is what I'm treating as a trap, if that makes sense.

[Advertiser Voice]

It does seem, though, that human beings are kind of wired to make judgments about things and people. And we, you know, we. Some. We size up people and we make judgments about them and. And the things they're saying and what. And that kind of seems like human nature.

[Brand Voice]

I think you're right. I think it is. I think it is human nature. I think that ultimately I'm asking people to do something that does go against arguably human nature. It feels good to be morally outraged. It feels good to be righteously indignant. I'm trying to help people understand that this has implications for our political conversation, for political polarization, for how we get along, for social trust. We can then make choices about how we want to move forward. I think we're better off doing that once we understand what those choices imply.

[Mike Carruthers]

So help me understand the moral outrage part of this, because you could take a politically charged topic like abortion, somebody could be pro life and somebody could be pro choice, and they could be very convinced that they're right, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're outraged by the other person. You believe what you want to believe. I believe what I want to believe, but I'm not outraged by your wanting to believe what you believe.

[Brand Voice]

I think that's a great. I think it's a great example. And so this is the distinction between the certainty and the trap. So the. The problem that I'm trying to solve for is really viewing people who disagree with contempt. So if you're, as you're describing with respect to abortion, live and let live, I have my position, you have yours, then that's not necessarily a problem of contempt. I can give you a different example. Let's say I'm pro choice and I'm viewing someone who is, depending on how I want to phrase it they are pro life or anti choice. And let's say that instead of kind of thinking, well, I have this opinion, you have that opinion, and we're on different sides of this, I now think that you're a misogynist who is trying to control my body. Right. That's a different way of coming at that topic where I'm making assumptions about someone's intent, their motives, et cetera. Rather than sort of the first scenario which you described, which is I have my opinion and you have yours and the certainty trap. What I'm saying in the certainty trap is not necessarily that our assumptions are wrong. I don't have a crystal ball that tells me what's going inside, going on inside someone's mind, but it's telling me, it should be, telling us to be willing to stop and question the assumptions that we're making and ask ourselves, could we be wrong and what would it.

[Advertiser Voice]

Mean if we were so interestingly, when I first saw your book and this topic, I didn't think it was about that. I thought it had more to do with more everyday day to day stuff that we judge other people and the things they say, not about politics so much, but you know, and it starts in school, like the kid who doesn't have such nice clothes. People make fun of that kid and bully him or her and then take what they say with a grain of salt because they're not as cool as the cool kids are. And it's more that than it is these very specific, highly charged political conversations.

[Brand Voice]

It is that. It's that as well. And so, and I'll give you an example sort of just from where that. What that can look like. So when I was having a conversation just a couple of weeks ago with a friend of mine who was in an argument with her husband and the argument was about. They were. It started out about just a difference of opinion in parenting styles. Anyway, it ended up getting to be a fairly heated argument and to the point where he had. He was planning to cancel a guy's weekend trip that was coming up and he felt that she should cancel a work trip that was the following weekend. Basically they should focus on the marriage, et cetera. As she's telling me this and I'm listening to her, my first thought is, wow, that feels really unfair. Like his treating his guy weekend is not the same thing as your work trip, that you rarely. She rarely takes work trips. And that feels really. In my head I was thinking that feels really controlling and manipulative. This is what I was thinking about him, for better or for worse. So then a couple of days later, she comes back and they've talked, and she said, you know what? He's really concerned about us taking time away from the marriage while things are not. While we're not really on solid ground, while we're not on solid footing, whether that means the increased likelihood of infidelity or just that it could create distance between the two of them. And suddenly, the assumptions that I had jumped to about him being feeling sort of manipulative and controlling, I was stopped in my tracks. And I was sort of like, wow, I can see how he got there. I can see how he. Whatever I originally thought about his decisions about canceling travel and work trips, I. When she said that, I could see, wow, I see how he could get there in a way that has nothing to do with being manipulative, being controlling. It's just out of concern for their marriage, et cetera. That's the difference between being in the certainty trap and out of it. Does that make sense?

[Advertiser Voice]

Yeah, that makes sense. My example that I was thinking about was because I see this all the time of people who are so dismissive of, say, the guy. The homeless guy who needs five bucks for whatever he needs it for. And people, you know, don't even see those people or dismiss them because of their appearance because they. They're homeless. They make assumptions about them. And I'm more the person that goes up and talks to them and gives them a little money and tries to hear their story a little bit. But most people are very certain that that is the dregs of society and stay away.

[Brand Voice]

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think that example works too. I think all of those conclusions that we draw about people that allow us to. As you said, I mean, I think the word dismissive is really. Is really apt here to just sort of be dismissive, to look the other way, you know, Another example I can think of would be when I'm. I used to be the person on the. On the plane who would get annoyed at children who were crying, particularly babies who are crying.

[Mike Carruthers]

Right.

[Brand Voice]

This was years ago, before I had kids.

[Advertiser Voice]

Right? It's always before you have kids. Right?

[Brand Voice]

It's always before you have kids. And I would think, oh, my gosh, you know, like, what does this person do? Like, how is this parent, you know, whatever the situation is, like, there must be something that they could be doing that is. That would keep that child quiet, and they're not doing it because they just don't care about you know how much it's bothering other people. And then, you know, when I had kids and I was the person holding the crying child on the long flight and I had no idea what else I could do to try and quiet the child, like I'd done everything and I could imagine, and I could, I could easily imagine that there were other people on that flight that were viewing people that were, excuse me, that were viewing me the same way I had viewed others in those years before. That's certainty. That's the way it's about how we judge people.

[Advertiser Voice]

And doesn't it seem that lately, like in the past, I don't know, 10, 20 years or so there's been more of that certainty and less of the open mindedness that before two people on opposite sides of an issue and opposite sides of anything could still talk and be friendly. But now it's, now we've thrown in this moral outrage piece that prevents that from happening because you're wrong and I'm right rather than we just disagree.

[Brand Voice]

It does seem to me like, I mean, I'm 51. It does seem to me like it has, it is worse in the last, say 20 years. I think there are, you know, people have a lot of theories about why that's the case. You know, social media is one of the things that is often mentioned. Social media rewards. If what you're trying to do is build a following, social media tends to reward outrage, so that creates an incentive. I don't mean to say that that's the only factor, but I think it's probably one of them. And I also think that there have been changes in how we think about education, what's true about the world and how we treat that information that has shifted in the last 20 years.

[Mike Carruthers]

What I see, and you see this in politics mostly, or at least most clearly, is when a person holds a position and then someone who disagrees with that position not only disagrees with the position but then attacks the person for thinking what they think. That because you think that you're an idiot and God, it didn't used to be like that.

[Brand Voice]

Right. It's that idea that the person who disagrees with me must be an idiot or hateful in some way. That's the problem that I'm trying to solve with the certainty trap. And it doesn't mean that you can't say this is right, this is wrong, this is good and this is bad. What it means is you need to be clear about it and clear about what those principles are that, that are sort of driving Your opinion and not. And that means kind of, as you were saying, that means not attacking. Attacking someone's character.

[Advertiser Voice]

Well, what I wonder is, what is the. What is the motive here? Because no one actually believes that. If I'm morally outraged and call you an idiot for thinking what you think, I'm not going to change your mind. If anything, I'm going to make you dig your heels in more. So what's the goal here? Why the moral outrage? It doesn't work. It doesn't. Somebody can't post something on Facebook and attack a whole group of people and go there. That should fix that. They'll change their minds now. No, they won't. Nobody will.

[Brand Voice]

It's a good question. I mean, so I don't want to sound like I think there's one goal that sort of answers that question equally for everybody. I can give you one answer, though. So I'm in the Sociology department at the University of Illinois. And sociology, higher education, just on the political spectrum. I'm not saying anything new here. Higher education leans left. Sociology within higher education is one of the disciplines that leans left within higher education. So that tends to be the orientation of a lot of the students that I see. For example, they. I would not say that when I interact with students, I would not say that their goal is necessarily to change minds. And I'm generalizing. There's obviously variability within students. I would say that they genuinely feel certain and believe that they are doing the right thing. When they are saying, this is wrong, this is hateful, et cetera. I think that it comes from, at least from what I've seen, not necessarily an instrumental goal of saying, I'm going to tell you you're racist and then you're going to change your mind. But a feeling that I need to call this out when I see it. And that's my. Maybe they wouldn't word it this way, but that's my moral duty.

[Advertiser Voice]

Yeah, but to what end? But nothing comes of it. So big deal, right?

[Brand Voice]

Well, that part of that is. Well, I don't even. Actually, I'm not even sure I agree with that. I don't think nothing comes with it. I think. Sorry, nothing comes of it. I think that what comes out of it is more extremism, more polarization, more contempt, et cetera. Like, I think what comes. And so part of what I'm trying to do is help them understand that that's. That that's part of what's going on. So I don't think if what you mean by what comes out of it? Yeah. What comes out of it in terms of, as you started to say, changing minds, like making the world a better place. That I don't think is where it ends up. I think it has all of these other consequences. So in other words, I don't think that that kind of behavior is neutral. I think it has negative consequences that I'm trying to help people understand.

[Advertiser Voice]

Yeah, well, I think you're probably right about that, because when I become dismissive of you, people get defensive and dismiss back. So now the dismisser is dismissing the dismisser. It's a lot of. And it just churns the pot. It just churns and churns and makes it worse.

[Brand Voice]

It does. And it has all kinds of implications for, again, I sort of said this, but for extremism, for pushing people to further to extreme positions, for how we, how we use terms like racist, transphobic, et cetera, to condemn ideas and all of what that means with the social consequences that go along with it in terms of cancel culture and everything else. It's all sort of folded in to this idea of certainty in how we think about contentious topics. Really is. That's the sort of through line between.

[Advertiser Voice]

It and so what is the prescription if you think you're perhaps in the certainty trap? I mean, what is it you would like to see people start doing?

[Brand Voice]

I would love to see people start out. So one of the things that I'll ask people to do is pick some issue that you think and you think the person who has a different idea from you, it has to be.

[Godfrey Pearlson]

It's.

[Brand Voice]

It's odious, it's objectionable, it's hateful, it's. It's only a. Some kind of moral monster would hold that opinion. And for different people, it will be different topics. So whatever it is for you, and you can do this sitting in a room by yourself, pick that issue and challenge yourself to try and come up with a version of that person's opinion, the one that you find objectionable that would make sense to you. And I mean something really specific. By make sense, I mean that you can't hang on an assumption about their intent or that they just don't have the right information. So I call these, I have names for these fallacies. The fallacy of equal knowledge and the fallacy of known intent. So pick the objectionable point of view. Try and come up with a version of that. Like how the person could get to that point of view that makes sense to you. And I'll just say this again by make sense, you're not hanging it on an assumption about their intent or that they just don't have the right information most of the time. For most issues, just going through that process helps people understand. Wow, okay, I get it. There's a different way of thinking about this. Then you can ask yourself the question if you encounter somebody who has that view that you find objectionable. Okay, well, maybe it's because they're hateful or stupid or whatever, but I actually also came up with this other possible explanation over here that I did on my own. How do I decide which one? That's. That's. That's destabilizing certainty. Right. So now you have two possible explanations. And you can ask yourself, how likely do I think one is versus the other and why, and etc. If you can't, there will always be some issues where you cannot come up with. There's no version of, you know, the pro slavery argument that I think is reasonable. To me, when that happens, your commitment in avoiding the certainty trap is to being very clear about what kind of bedrock principle you're bumping up against. So in the slavery example, it might be something like, I think all lives have equal moral value, or I think no human being should enslave another. And naming that principle in a way and using language that somebody who disagrees with you would understand. Does that make sense?

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, that makes sense. And I really appreciate having this conversation because it makes you think about what.

[Advertiser Voice]

You think, about what other people think.

[Mike Carruthers]

And how to bridge the gaps and understand. I've been speaking with Ilana Redstone. She's a professor of sociology at the University of Illinois and author of the book the Certainty why We Need To Question Ourselves More and How We Can Judge Others Less. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Elana.

[Brand Voice]

Well, thank you so much.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Advertiser Voice]

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[Mike Carruthers]

Replacing filters every three months will give you cleaner air and save you money. Dirty filters force your system to work harder and that is something you should know. You know, it'd be great, it would just be great if you would just take a moment and tell someone else you know about this podcast and make a suggestion that they give it a listen. It helps us to grow our audience and every podcaster wants their audience to grow. So please help us out and share something you should know with someone you know. I'm micahruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Advertiser Voice]

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[Mike Carruthers]

Podcast I really like, and I think you'll like it too. It's called the Gist. Now the Gist is the longest running news and commentary podcast out there. The host, Mike Pesca, puts out these very interesting arguments and asks great questions of his guests, which often get him some great, interesting and sometimes unusual answers. Just to give you a sampling, A couple of recent guests include the Pixar and Saturday Night Live writer who got an early version of AI which convinced him that computers were going to be able to replace comedy writers within five years. He spoke with a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who realized he was being lied to by scientists to throw him off the scent of the COVID lab leak theory and the paleontologist who had to lose 50 pounds so he could squeeze through this narrow crevice so he could see in person the 250,000 year old bones of a species that he discovered. Now, if any of this sounds interesting and trust me, it's really an interesting podcast, listen to the gist wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Jennifer]

Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go network at Go Kid Go. Putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called the Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.