The Powerful Ways Culture Shapes Us & Why We Struggle With Fitness-SYSK Choice

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Something You Should Know

Episode: The Powerful Ways Culture Shapes Us & Why We Struggle With Fitness
Host: Mike Carruthers
Date: January 24, 2026

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Overview

This dual-interview episode explores:

1. The pervasive, often invisible role culture plays in shaping individual and collective behaviors, with marketing professor Marcus Collins.
2. Why, despite a booming fitness industry and widespread awareness of exercise benefits, most Americans still struggle to be active, with historian and fitness expert Natalia Petrzela.

The episode aims to shed light on what "culture" actually is, how it drives change, and offers actionable insights for both personal and societal motivation around health and fitness.

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PART 1: The Powerful Ways Culture Shapes Us

Guest: Marcus Collins, Clinical Assistant Professor of Marketing, University of Michigan
[Segment Begins ~05:18]

What Is Culture? (05:18 – 06:24)

• Culture is an omnipresent, hard-to-define force.
  • Marcus Collins compares defining culture to “explaining water to a fish.”
• Durkheimian view: Culture is a system of “values, norms and symbols that demarcate who people are and what the expectations and conventions are of those people,” shaping how we see and act in the world.
• Quote [05:26]:

  “It’s sort of in everything that we do. It’s like explaining water to a fish.” – Marcus Collins

Why Culture Matters (06:24 – 07:21)

• Culture is the “most influential force on human behavior, full stop.”
  • It informs decisions from “what we eat” to “who we marry” and even “where we bury the dead.”

Brands and Identity: Nike as Example (07:21 – 08:47)

• Successful brands don’t just sell products; they reflect and reinforce identity.
  • Nike communicates: “If you have a body, you are an athlete.”
  • Quote [07:28]:

    “Nike is the person under the streetlamp saying, ‘Keep going, Mike.’… Nike isn’t just a sneaker company. It’s consecrated… a totem status.” – Marcus Collins

How Culture Changes – The Role of Shocks and Groups (09:06 – 11:12)

• Brands, politicians, or other figures can introduce “exogenous shocks” (unexpected events or behaviors).
  • Communities collectively interpret and decide if these events fit.
  • Will Smith/Chris Rock “slap” referenced as a cultural shock, sparking public discourse.
  • Quote [10:01]:

    “Culture, in a lot of ways, is a meaning-making system.” – Marcus Collins

Counterculture and Subcultures (13:54 – 16:09)

• Not everyone agrees with mainstream trends; subcultures arise when groups reject dominant cultural norms (e.g., people returning to flip phones).
• Even fringe behaviors can become mainstream over time:
  • Gaming and comic books were once “dorky,” now global phenomena.
  • Quote [14:32]:

    “Everything that is now cool was once crazy.” – Marcus Collins

Why Some Things Catch On (Social Contagion) (18:15 – 20:06)

• “Social contagion” explains how behaviors, desires, and beliefs spread.
• Change follows a bell curve: starts with innovators, then early adopters, then the majority.
• What succeeds is about reaching a “density” or tipping point, not always predictability.

Why Should We Care? (21:15 – 22:32)

• Culture is key for anyone trying to get others to adopt behaviors—parents, managers, marketers, politicians.

Understanding Culture vs. Demographics (22:40 – 26:47)

• Most marketers focus on demographics, but real influence comes from understanding individuals’ deeper affiliations, beliefs, and communities.
• Quote [25:25]:

  “If marketers don’t understand me at that level, then they’re constantly talking to me like a label, as opposed to who I truly am.” – Marcus Collins

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PART 2: Why We Struggle with Fitness

Guest: Natalia Petrzela, Historian & Author, “Fit Nation”
[Segment Begins ~29:26]

The Fitness Paradox (29:26 – 30:42)

• America is obsessed with fitness, but levels of regular exercise are low (approx. 20% of adults; 30% of teens get recommended activity).
• Quote [29:49]:

  “…we are in this really peculiar moment where everybody agrees exercise is good… but relatively few Americans even do the recommended… amount.” – Natalia Petrzela

"Who Actually Exercises, and Why?" (30:42 – 31:29)

• Affluent people exercise more now than in the past; for the wealthy, fitness has become a status signal (“doing an Ironman and wearing $100 leggings”).
• Overall, the populace is more sedentary than in previous eras.

Why Are We Less Active? (31:29 – 33:12)

• Major shifts to sedentary work (knowledge/service economy).
• Leisure now prioritizes passive activities (TV, car), further reducing incidental exercise.
• Technology and “labor-saving devices” remove physical tasks from daily life.

The Struggle to Make Exercise Stick (33:12 – 35:30)

• “Purposive” exercise (workouts for their own sake) is not a natural act, and routines frequently fail—especially around New Year’s resolutions.
• Quote [33:50]:

  “Purposive exercise… is not a natural act. It’s hard. It involves taking time for yourself.” – Natalia Petrzela

• We’re conditioned to think only intense workouts “count,” missing incremental or enjoyable opportunities for movement (“no pain, no gain” mindset).

The Truth About Enjoyment and Motivation (35:30 – 38:10)

• Enjoying working out can be about the afterglow, not the act itself.
  • Social experiences or “exercise snacks” (small activities) can be positive and easier to maintain.
• Quote [36:15]:

  “Self-care doesn’t necessarily mean the thing you love in the moment.” – Natalia Petrzela

Pop Culture and Exercise Booms (38:36 – 40:23)

• Aerobics and other trends: Pop culture (e.g., Jane Fonda, “Physical” by Olivia Newton-John) brings temporary spikes, but can have lasting effects (mainstreaming cardio).
• VHS technology spread exercise fads well beyond big cities.

Why People Fail to Stick with Fitness—Two Reasons (40:53 – 42:51)

1. Fitness has become a “moral pursuit”—easy to justify expenditure, harder to find time or motivation.
2. Many programs overpromise and underdeliver; reality rarely matches marketing.

• Quote [40:53]:

  “Our culture holds up fitness as this moral pursuit… But I understand the fantasy and why people keep doing it.” – Natalia Petrzela

Results and Adherence (42:51 – 44:38)

• People often quit when they don’t see rapid, dramatic results.
• Those who stay often discover other, less visible rewards: better health, new friendships, improved mood or flexibility.

Making Exercise Work For You (45:02 – 47:10)

• Trial and error is key; “know thyself” to set realistic, sustainable routines.
• Link movement to enjoyable activities, social connections, or achievable goals.
• Avoid pegging success to weight loss alone—“abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym”—as diet is far more influential.

Exercise and Weight Loss: Myths and Realities (47:21 – 48:44)

• Exercise has health benefits, but is more effective for keeping weight off than losing it.
• Exercise creates positive cycles (improved sleep, structure, cravings), with broad physical and mental payoffs.
• Quote [47:47]:

  “If there was a… silver bullet around health, it probably would be consistent exercise.” – Natalia Petrzela

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Culture as Water to a Fish (05:26):

  “It’s sort of in everything that we do. It’s like explaining water to a fish.” – Marcus Collins

• Everything Cool Was Once Crazy (14:32):

  “Everything that is now cool was once crazy.” – Marcus Collins

• Fitness as Moral Pursuit (40:53):

  “Our culture holds up fitness as this moral pursuit… But I understand the fantasy and why people keep doing it.” – Natalia Petrzela

• Consistency is Magic (47:47):

  “If there was a… silver bullet around health, it probably would be consistent exercise.” – Natalia Petrzela

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Key Timestamps

• 05:18 – 07:21: Defining Culture and its Omnipresence
• 07:28: How Nike Sells Identity, Not Just Sneakers
• 09:06 – 11:12: How (and Who) Drives Culture Change
• 13:54 – 16:09: How Subcultures Become Mainstream
• 18:15 – 20:06: Why Some Cultural Trends Catch On (or Don’t)
• 29:49: Why Americans Talk about Exercise More than They Do It
• 33:50: Why “Purposive” Exercise is Unnatural for Most
• 36:15: Rethinking Enjoyment and Motivation for Fitness
• 40:53: The Moralization and Commercialization of Fitness
• 45:02: Practical Strategies for Making Fitness Stick
• 47:47: The Universal Health Power of Consistent Exercise

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Final Takeaways

• Culture is everywhere and shapes nearly all of our choices, mostly subconsciously. Understanding it isn’t just for marketers—influence and persuasion begin with understanding how groups form meaning and identity.
• Fitness is more about small, enjoyable actions and intrinsic rewards than chasing marketed quick fixes or external results. Knowing ourselves—and being realistic about what we’ll actually do—beats any perfect gym routine.
• Change is Possible: Major life pivots can happen at any age. Don’t believe the myth that it’s “too late” to become healthier, fitter, or just different.

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For listeners:

Reading this summary gives you a thorough understanding of how culture subtly guides your behavior and identity, and why making sustainable health changes requires more than simply following trends or buying products—it’s about finding meaning and behaviors that fit your real life and real self.

Transcript

[Alex Honnold]

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on Something you should know Is a baby more likely to look like its mommy or daddy than Understanding culture, What it is, how it changes. It's important. Why?

[Marcus Collins]

Because culture is the most influential force on human behavior. Full stop, right? What we wear, what we buy, how we style our hair, what we drive, who we marry, if we mar, what we eat. All these things are byproducts of our cultural subscription.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, is it ever too late to really change the direction of your life? And there is a fitness and exercise craze in America, but not for everyone.

[Natalia Petruzale]

I think that we are in this really peculiar moment where everybody agrees exercise is good for you and even talks about it like it's this moral act. But relatively few Americans even do the recommended minimum amount of exercise per day or per week.

[Mike Carruthers]

All this today on Something you should know. You know, the New Year has this way of making people rethink things. You've got ideas, skills, something you've thought about selling for a long time. The problem usually isn't the idea, it's actually, you know, starting something. That's where Shopify comes in. It gives you everything you need to sell online or in person without having to be some tech expert. Millions of people already use it, from big, big brands to first time business owners. You can build a store fast with their templates and their AI tools, help you write product descriptions, headlines, even edit your photos. Marketing's built in too, so you can reach people through email and social media. And when things start working, Shopify scales right along with you. In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for per month trial and start selling [e-mail] sysk go to shopify.com sysk that's shopify.com sysk hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side. Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. Hi and welcome to Something you should know. So if you've ever had a baby or know someone who's had a baby or seen a brand new baby, you know that one of the first things people start talking about is whether or not the baby looks like its mother or its father. Well, chances are a newborn baby will probably look more like its daddy than its mommy at birth. Although this theory has been challenged for decades, many evolutionary experts believe human infants will resemble their fathers a bit more at birth. And this is nature's way of helping to put any male doubts to rest. Since we already know who the mother is, male humans are more likely to accept, protect, and bond with a child who resembles them. To put the theory to the test, participants were asked to match photographs of a newborn baby to photographs of their parents. 50% of the time, the match was correct when it was baby and dad. The match rate was much lower when it was mother and child. And that is something you should know. Think about the word culture. We use the word a lot. I use it a lot. But try to define that word. It's a little tricky. You kind of sort of know what it means. And you know that culture is a big thing. Culture influences a lot of what we do, and we all in turn influence the culture. So what makes a culture, and why is it important for us to discuss? Well, joining me to explain that is Marcus Collins. He is a clinical assistant professor of marketing at the Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. He's a recipient of Advertising Age's 40 under 40 award and an inductee into the American Advertising Federation's Advertising hall of Achievement. And he's author of a book called for the the Power behind what We Buy, what We do, and who We Want To Be. Hi, Marcus. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Marcus Collins]

Thanks so much for having me, Mike. I'm excited to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what is culture? How do you define it? What does it mean? What does it. We sure throw the word around a lot. But I'm not sure it's necessarily easy.

[Marcus Collins]

To define, you know, and you'd be right. Culture is a hard word to define because it's omnipresent. It's everywhere. It's sort of in everything that we do. It's like explaining water to a fish. It's pretty difficult. And even the early scholars thought so as well. So you wouldn't be alone in feeling that way. When I think about culture, I think about it through a Durkheimian view. Right. Emil Durkheim, one of the founding fathers of sociology, talked about Culture as this system of values, norms and symbols that demarcate who people are and what the expectations and conventions are of those people, right? This system informs how we see the world, which ultimately governs how we show up in the world, how we behave, how we talk, what we wear, what we do. All these things are byproducts of our cultural subscription. The expectations and conventions of people like us. One may refer to it as sort of the program for everyday living, right? It guides what people like us ought to do.

[Mike Carruthers]

And we, the people, are the ones who guide the culture. But it's such a big thing. I mean, why is this important to talk about?

[Marcus Collins]

Because culture is the most influential force on human behavior, full stop, right? What we wear, what we buy, how we style our hair, what we drive, what products we use, where we go to school, if we go to school, who we marry, if we mar, where we vacation, what we eat, where we bury the dead, how we bury the dead. All these things are byproducts of our cultural subscription. So if we understand the governing operating system of humanity, that is culture, then we'll have a better understanding of what people are likely to do. And if you are in the business of getting people to move, that is, you have a vested interest in getting people to adopt behavior. Culture is your biggest cheat code ever.

[Mike Carruthers]

So give me an example of somebody who uses that or has used that cheat code. Well, to really put a face on.

[Marcus Collins]

What you're saying, the first thing that comes to mind for me, and think of a brand like Nike. Nike believes that every human body is an athlete, right? If you have a body, you are an athlete. And Nike talks to athletes like an athlete. And they're sort of like. One person puts this way that Phil Knight would talk about Nike as. When you're running in the cold early mornings and it's dark outside and it's wet and you're by yourself and you're tired. Nike is the person under the street lamp saying, keep going, Mike. Like, that's what Nike sort of signifies, that that's what it is. And because of what Nike believes, it's able to talk to people who see the world similarly in these very nuanced, subtle ways, these cultural ways. They speak to the artifacts that are mean, the behaviors that are normative, the language that they use. And Nike isn't just a sneaker company. It's consecrated. There's like a totem status, if you will. Because these brands that see the world the way we see the world, we use them as a way to express Our identity. And Nike isn't just a sneaker brand. It's a receipt of people's identity, which I think is extremely powerful as seen in the financial success that the brand has had over the years.

[Mike Carruthers]

So besides brands like Nike, who drives, what drives culture change? What makes us eat what we eat and sit the way we sit and walk the way we walk? And I mean, what is it other than, you know, brand influence? What are the things that really move the needle?

[Marcus Collins]

That's the beautiful part, that it's not really the brands. It's usually that brands, cultural creators, politicians, leaders, public figures, they say things, they do things that create exogenous shocks to the system, things we didn't expect, things that sit outside of our normal day to day. And when it happens, we in our communities, our friends, our families, our teammates, fraternity brothers, sorority sisters, congregates, our co workers, we see this thing happen outside of ourselves and then we as a community collectively discuss it and we say, what does this mean? And is this acceptable, right? Meaning. Culture, a lot of ways, is a meaning making system. It's a way by which we see the world and translate it. So we develop and evolve our cultural characteristics through the discourse that we take on when things happen around us. We go, wasn't that crazy, Mike? You go, I know, right? That is crazy. Or I may see something go, I can't believe that happened. And you go, wait a minute, Marcus, why not? And as we discuss, we collectively make meaning and we collectively shape, evolve and mold our cultural characteristics. The Will Smith Chris Rock slap. And we all go, whoa, what was that? An exogenous shock to the system? That's not what's supposed to happen, but it happens. And then what do we do as a society? We discuss it, right? We talk about, is this acceptable behavior for something like the Oscars, or is he just protecting his wife like he's supposed to do? Or is this a situation where Will Smith needs to learn how to take a joke? These ideologies, these beliefs, they are being discussed, they are being interrogated, they're being negotiated among people like us. And then we collectively decide, without a drum major, without a memo, without any authority, that this is what something like people like us do. And we as a society, as a community, as groups of people, we behave accordingly.

[Mike Carruthers]

It seems, though, that what gets adopted into the culture is not always a democratic decision. It does seem that a lot of times, for example, political activists and groups will push things into the culture. And because they are so loud and because they create a fuss, the rest of us think it's just not worth the fight. And in the culture it comes.

[Marcus Collins]

That's true. Sometimes we say, you know what, it's not even worth pushing against it. I'll just sort of fall in line. We see this a lot in companies and organizations where we may feel like, I don't have agency to make change and I don't necessarily agree with it, but this is what we do. So I'm going to fall in line. And the challenge is that while people may stick around and do work and stay even though they disagree with the cultural characteristics that have taken shape in the organization, they begin instead to retreat. They remove their engagement. They become less invested. Why? Because this place is no longer a receipt of identity. Now it's just a transactional thing. It's just a job. And the same thing goes when we think about brands that are align with their identity and those who are not. Right? Like people say, I'm a, I'm a Nike guy, I don't draw, I don't wear Adidas, for instance, right? But when there is no affiliation, there's no association to my identity in that way. It's just a pair of sneakers. Just like it's just a job that pays me, you know, to work here from 9 to 5. My relationship with it is transactional and culture. When there is congruence between what we believe and what the brand, the entity, the organization, the institution believes, we then invest ourselves in it. Where this brand, this institution, this organization becomes a receipt of who I am, which is much, much more powerful than having a transactional relationship only.

[Mike Carruthers]

So here's a question. It has become part of modern day culture. Everybody over the age of 10, it seems, has a cell phone, a smartphone, and you walk down the street and everybody's got their face buried in the smartphone. That's just become part of the culture. And I can't imagine there are too many people who think, yeah, we really need more of this, we need to be looking at our phones even more. Generally, I think people think it's overdone, we do it too much, we're all too stressed out because of it. But nobody stops, nobody says, well what are we gonna do to fix it? They just shrug their shoulders and go, yeah, it sucks. But you know, that's what we're gonna do. We're all gonna our face and our phones and life goes on.

[Marcus Collins]

Well, this is where you get counterculture or subcultures that people who say, you know what, I don't, I don't, I'm not for this. And what they do is they say, I'm going to reject this and pick up new behaviors, a new normal. And we see this now. There are small groups of people who are saying, I'm giving up my smartphone and going back to flip phones. In some cases, it seemed like they're being irreverent, but really what they're doing is demonstrating an ideology, a belief system, and saying, to your point, that these, these mobile devices, they. They have become too all encompassing, too pervasive. And now I feel like I'm serving it versus it serving me. Therefore, I want to take more agency and change my device. Now we look at those people and go, oh man, you crazy. What are you doing? But here's the interesting part, that everything that is now normal, everything that is now massively adopted, all started with the fringe group of people that looked crazy, that was willing to look crazy in the early stages, just for a moment to start to create momentum where this idea, this product adoption begins to propagate within the community. Everything that is now cool was once crazy. Twenty years ago, if you were into comic books, people said you were a dork. Now the majority of movies that we watch across the globe all come from comics. Twenty years ago, if you were into gaming, you were a failure to launch. Now gaming is a multi billion dollar industry. So these changes happen because someone or someones are willing to say, no thank you, and they push against it. And what happens is someone hears it and go, you're right, this is not a good idea. Why am I doing this? And then they adopt the behavior. This is essentially how smartphones became a thing. When people started having iPhone like devices, they'll look at your Nokia go, why would you have that brick? What are you doing? You're playing yourself. You should be upgrading to this new cool thing. And as more people put social pressure on you, telling you to be normal, we then remove one behavior and adopt another. Not because of what it is, but because of who we are and what people like me do.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're talking about culture, what it is, how it works. And my guest is Marcus Collins. He's a clinical assistant professor of marketing at the Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan, and he's author of a book called for the the Power behind what We Buy, what We do, and who we want to be.

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[Mike Carruthers]

So Marcus, sometimes, as you say, things get introduced into the culture and they catch on, but other times things don't catch on. So what's the difference? Why do some things become adopted into the culture while other things just get kicked to the side of the road?

[Marcus Collins]

This is actually right in the center of the research that I do called social contagion. It's the idea that affects behaviors, cognitions and desires spread from person to person due to peer influence, whether direct or indirect. And things propagate in a population in what we know as the Bell curve. And the idea is that things start with innovators, then they go to early adopters and then the majority. And there's a point in time where things start with a very small group of people and more people get into it and it starts to grow, but doesn't necessarily cross the chasm. It doesn't like really tip into the the. The major. The major majority. Right. The larger majority, the early majority, that is. And as A result, it sort of dies out. And these things are really just about density. They're really about density and complex contagion that as more people do it, more people do it. But it requires a certain threshold that has to be achieved such that it's able to see more people to see it, more people to touch it, and the ability or the likelihood of people adopt it to grow. It's hard to say what will happen, almost impossible to predict. Right. But we know the mechanisms that drive it. So as marketers, leaders, entrepreneurs, politicians, activists, while we can't predict what will happen, we can, however, increase the likelihood of these things becoming adopted by leveraging what we know of human behavior and the impact that culture has on our collective behavior.

[Mike Carruthers]

How much of culture changes? And I guess what I mean by that is what people eat for breakfast today probably isn't much different than what they ate for breakfast 30, 40, 50 years ago. It hasn't. It's eggs and bread and toast and bac and cereal. And you know, it doesn't change a lot, but some things do. So how much of it that's true.

[Marcus Collins]

I mean, culture is always evolving. Like here we eat an egg based diet for breakfast, but in Saudi they eat dates. Or if you're in China, you have a noodle like option for breakfast. Right. So there are cultural characteristics that are specific in each unique region or each unique environment. And now how often does that change? Well, some things don't change very often. And some things do. For instance, you know, 10 years ago we started introducing avocado toast to our diet for breakfast. It became a thing. Why did it become a thing? Because people started doing it. And what do they say? Nothing draws a crowd like a crowd.

[Mike Carruthers]

And why is that? Why is all of this worth talking about? I mean, I mean it is to you, because it's your research. But. But to the average person, why is this important to shine a light on?

[Marcus Collins]

Because whether you're a marketer or not, we are all in the business of getting people to adopt behavior. Whether you're a manager trying to get your employees to adopt a certain policy, a certain way of working, whether you are an entrepreneur trying to get people to buy into your idea, investors to buy into your idea, whether you're a part politician trying to drum up the vote, even if you're a parent trying to get your kids to eat peas, which I'm often battling with my two kids. Right. We are all in the business of getting people to adopt behavior. We try to get people to move and there's no force more influential than culture to do that very thing. So if you have a vested interest in getting people to adopt behavior, to buy, to watch, to sample, to download, to subscribe, to share, to vote, to pray, whatever your thing is, recycle to compost. Zero, zero waste consumption, whatever it may be, if you're trying to get people to adopt behavior, the better we understand culture, the more likely your opportunity to do that very thing becomes.

[Mike Carruthers]

Because when you understand culture, you do it differently than someone who doesn't understand culture. How?

[Marcus Collins]

Oh, because you know what makes these people tick. As marketers in particular, we typically talk about the value propositions of the product. My razor sharper, my battery lasts longer, car goes faster. And that people buy because they want a sharper razor. That makes sense intuitively. That makes all the sense in the world. That is the conventional wisdom. But what we know of humanity, the underlying physics of humanity, is that we're governed by something far greater than value propositions. In fact, we will buy a product that is inferior to another product because of what that inferior product says about us. You compare Beats by Dre's sonic quality to that of Bo's sonic quality. Bose is a better product. It sounds better, right? Demonstratively, empirically, it performs better. Yet Beats by Dre owned 46% of the headphone market. How is that? Why is that? Because Beats by Dre were more than just headphones. They were receipts of my identity. They were. They were artifacts. They were accessories that people wore. They're like jewelry that people wore with their outfits. Because of what they say about us, we have to challenge our conventional wisdoms of why people do what they do. And the better we understand that, the more likely we are to get them to do that very thing.

[Mike Carruthers]

But it seems that if it were that simple, not that that was that simple, but if you could predict, well, then people wouldn't launch products and fail. They would predict. They would know. I mean, I think Beats by Dre took off in a way even they were surprised. I mean, it was a phenomenon. I don't think anyone looked at that and said, yep, we planned this all along, of course.

[Marcus Collins]

And again, this isn't about prediction. It's about increasing the likelihood of behavior. What is predictable is that once people within the community begin to act a certain way, then people in the community will begin to continue to act a certain way. Right? So. Right. There's no crystal ball that we can pull out and say, oh, I want to do this, and this is going to happen. But we can certainly increase the likelihood of a particular behavioral adoption. So Beats by Dre knew that, yes, though their headphones probably weren't as good as Bose, that if they tap into the community, they tap into the hip hop culture of consumption, then these things won't just be headphones. They will be cool. And they use those words, cool. But what they really mean is to be culturally relevant, they're relevant for a particular group of people. Right. So it's not easy because intimacy is hard, especially when I'm a business leader and I have to make my numbers. But at the end of the quarter, like, that's a hard thing to do, to say, no, I'm going to invest in understanding these people when it's so much more efficient for us to just put people in boxes as opposed to know who they are at a cultural level. Right. You know, we'll say, you know, this Gen Z works this way. Millennials are this way. And so that's the case. Let's target them with these sort of messages or this kind of products. But those things don't describe who people truly are. Just like, you know, take my. My demographics. I'm 44 years old today, and I'm African American. I'm from Detroit, went to public schools my entire life. If a marketer saw that on a target brief, an assignment brief, they'll say, oh, he must go to these places, do these things, and act like this, because those are the things that people like him do. And they make those assumptions, those biases, based upon the frames that they have, the cultural frames that they have about what people who look like me or places where I'm from might do. And While I am 44 years old, I am black, I am from Detroit, and I did grow up in public schools my entire life. That doesn't give rise to the fact that I grew up playing jazz as a kid or that I swam competitively. Right. And those things shape how I see the world. They shape my. My beliefs, the artifacts that I don, the behaviors that I know, and the language that I use. And if markers don't understand me at that level, then they're constantly talking to me like a. Like a. Like a label, as opposed to who I truly am. And getting close to people takes time.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I think everybody listening, myself included, now has a better understanding of what culture specifically is and how it works. I've been speaking with Marcus Collins. He is a clinical assistant professor of marketing at the Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. The name of his book is for the the Power behind what we buy what we do and who we want to be. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for coming on and talking about this, Marcus.

[Marcus Collins]

My absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me, Mike.

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[Natalia Petruzale]

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[Mike Carruthers]

It's a little odd to think that we as a culture are more obsessed with fitness than ever before, yet overall, we're more unhealthy and out of shape than ever before. Why is that? In fact, despite being bombarded by messages and opportunities to exercise, only 20% of Americans do that on a regular basis. Only 30% of high school students get at least an hour of exercise every day. So here we are. We know exercise is good for us. We're surrounded by images and messages to do it, yet most of us don't. Natalia Petruzale is someone who's really looked into this phenomenon, and she's here to discuss exercise, what it means to be fit, and how people who don't exercise much can get motivated to do it. Natalia is an historian of contemporary American politics and culture. She is a fitness instructor and author of the book Fit Nation the Gains and Pains of America's Exercise Obsession. Hi Natalia. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Natalia Petruzale]

Hi. I'm so glad to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what's your take on this? Why is it that we as a culture are so obsessed with fitness, hear about it all the time, and yet a lot of people don't bother to do it? It kind of reminds me of like, people who watch cooking shows but, you know, don't really cook. It's interesting, but it somehow doesn't motivate people.

[Natalia Petruzale]

Yeah, well, I think that we are in this really peculiar moment where everybody agrees exercise is good for and even talks about it like it's this moral act that people participate in. But relatively few Americans even do the recommended, you know, minimum amount of exercise per day or per week. And I mean, it's a long explanation of how we got here, but the short answer version of that is that even as we have embraced exercise as a positive good and as a virtuous act, we've pretty much come to offer it only as a private commodity. So there's this like crazy paradox where we're cutting funding for phys ed, for public recreation and fitness that would truly make it accessible. While talking a big game about how good exercise is for you and having, you know, a private industry that has expanded exponentially.

[Mike Carruthers]

Are we, are we exercising a lot less than we used to, or is it just that we're not really exercising as much as we think we are?

[Natalia Petruzale]

That's a good question. So I would say that affluent people are exercising a lot more than people of their social class used to. I mean, it in the beginning of the 20th century to look like you had a bigger body, to be leisured was to be affluent and to show that you were wealthy. Now to show that you're wealthy, you're, you know, doing an ironman and wearing $100 leggings. And so I think that for more wealthy people, we are exercising more, there's no question. But on the whole, this country has become more sedentary.

[Mike Carruthers]

And the reason is besides the funding and the more talk, less action, I mean, is there some sort of underlying reason like people just don't like to exercise, they just like to talk about exercise? Or what is the motivation or demotivation here?

[Natalia Petruzale]

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And I think that the big story here is that most aspects of American life have become more sedentary, vary over time. So if you think that as we have transformed to an economy which is primarily a service economy, and people are working in, you know, at desks and you know, in technological jobs, the so called knowledge economy that has created much more sedentariness. And then even people who are doing kind of much more manual labor, it's not like they're doing manual labor that is necessarily good for them in the way that a deliberate workout is. Like if you think of someone working in an Amazon warehouse that's very physical, but they're getting repetitive use injuries and all the rest. So I think that the nature of work has become more sedentary, but also the nature of entertainment and, you know, leisure activities has also become more sedentary over the past hundred years or so. Think of you Know, big evolutions like the television, the car, you know, labor saving devices like washing machines, like all of these things have meant that a degree of physical exertion has been removed from everyday life. And so I think that that is all super important. Yeah, I would say that those are a lot, that's a lot of it.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yet even though people, there are many, many people, probably everybody just, just about that, that has at some point in their life said, you know, I'm really going to commit to this, I'm going to buy the exercise bike or I'm going to join the gym or I'm going to do something. And yet so many of them don't stick to it. So it makes you wonder why, it makes you wonder, is it just not natural to artificially exercise that movement, human movement is the way to go. But to specifically get up in the morning and say I'm going to exercise seems to fail so often.

[Natalia Petruzale]

It's such an important point and it's absolutely true. I mean, people who study the data around New Year's resolutions show that something like two or three weeks into January, most people who've made the most popular New Year's resolutions resolution, which is to exercise more, have basically given up on it. Why is that? Well, I think that you're right that you know, what people call purposive exercise, like taking time out of your day to work out rather than say walking to work, that, that is not a natural act. It's hard. It involves taking time for yourself. I think that that's part of it. But I also think that, you know, we have an unfortunately narrow definition of what exercise is worth it. And we tend to think like, know, no pain, no gain. Like if it's not brutal and painful, it's probably not worth doing, or if you're not going to do 60 minutes of cardio, it's not even worth kind of taking that walk. And I think that that's a real problem and something that, you know, I'm a historian who wrote about this. I'm also a fitness instructor and like a huge enthusiast around exercise. And I think one thing that I have that I really try to emphasize is that like no opportunity is too small for movement and also that all of those little kind of exerc snacks, if you will, actually add up. And I think that that is really important to realize as is the fact that the exercise program you're going to stick with is the one that you find some enjoyment in. And I think too often we think like, oh, if I'm not drenched in sweat and hating every minute of it. It's somehow not worth it. That's totally not true.

[Mike Carruthers]

The phrase that you, you know, the concept that you have to enjoy it, it's got to be something that you enjoy is seemingly, I don't know, it seems a little misleading to me in the sense that like, I exercise quite a bit. I go to a gym pretty much every day. I don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy necessarily going. I enjoy leaving. I feel so good when I leave. But I don't necessarily enjoy the exertion and the pain of, you know, lifting heavy weights or running till I'm out of breath. But it's the leaving, it's the wow, that was great. I feel great for having done it. That's my enjoyment. But that's not what most people think of as you have to enjoy it.

[Natalia Petruzale]

Well, I think we've got to change that conversation and I think you're absolutely right. Like, you know, everybody talks a big game about like self care today, but there isn't a very nuanced conversation. That self care doesn't necessarily mean the thing that you love in the moment. Like, I love eating an ice cream sundae, but I don't necessarily always like the way it makes me feel after. Much like you, I don't love going on a long training run for a marathon. But my God, after the exhilaration of how I feel at having done something challenging like that is meaningful. And so I think that's something that we really, really need to emphasize that sometimes the thing, the feeling good and the liking it is about the feeling that you have at the end. But then I also think to maybe push back on your point a little bit that, you know, there are movement activities that are worth it for the, for the promotion of overall health that are enjoyable in the moment. I mean, telling a friend who you are going to meet to go to a movie or for coffee, hey, let's actually go for a walk together. Like, that's actually a nice gentle experience that actually has some health outcomes to it. Similarly, for me, the way that I motivate to exercise when I'm like, oh, there's no way I'm going to make myself, you know, go and sprint on the treadmill or do a kind of much more challenging workout where I have to focus on that outcome. Feeling. Feeling is that I sign up and by the way, prepay for like a cardio dance class because to me that's just like pure fun. Like, I feel like I'm in a nightclub or something. And then, of course, also prepaying for it means I'm actually going to show up. But to me, there's a place for that hard kind of workout, which, you know, I think everybody probably should be pushing themselves physically. There's a place for that where you have to focus on the outcome. And then there's also a place for saying, today I'm going to do something that is, like, more fun and not as much of a heavy lift, no pun intended, to get started on.

[Mike Carruthers]

There have been in recent decades, you know, these. These movements. You know, there was, you know, a time when nobody talked about aerobics, and then aerobics became a thing. And then, you know, Olivia Newton John's Physical Song came out and everybody was supposedly exercising. There have been these, like, moments in time. Time. Have they really moved the needle much, or are they just, you know, pop culture y moments in time?

[Natalia Petruzale]

I think they are both pop culture moments in time, and they move the needle. I mean, the moment that you're pointing to, right, the 1980s and this aerobics boom, that was a really important moment. It stands out as being, like, almost like purely aesthetics or pop culture, because we think of Olivia Newton John and the leotards and the leg warmers and, yes, that was absolutely part of it. But, like, if we drill down to actually what was happening historically, it's actually very important. So the first thing is, like, you mentioned the word aerobics. And, you know, aerobics is a word you use to describe what we often think of today as, like, women's dance cardio exercise. But actually, aerobics was the name of this really important book that came out in 1968 that, like, changed what we think of as exercise, like, in a huge way that we've never turned back from. So Kenneth Cooper was his military doctor, and basically he introduced what he called aerobics, which was the idea of cardio, and that was lifechanging. Like, the fact that exercise was not just calisthenics or weightlifting, but that it was this kind of, you know, activity that you would do through jogging or swimming or b or cycling, and that that was good for your heart, that it could even save your life. And that men, women and children should do that. That totally changed the game. And then I should say there's a technology story there, too, which is that VHS spread this movement far and wide. You know, the big kind of gyms and studios were in New York and Los Angeles on the coast, but it was when VHS really took off and it exploded in the early 1980s that Jane Fonda's tape became a bestseller. And then very quickly, there were, like, imitators making all kinds of. Making all kinds of, like, workout videos that really spread that.

[Mike Carruthers]

Why is it, do you think, or do you know, that, you know, people will buy very expensive fitness equipment? They will buy, you know, memberships at gyms, and with all the best intentions they really want at the moment, they really want to make a commitment and a change to do this. But so often people fail. Why is. Does everybody have an individual story of why they fail, or is there a sense of why everybody fails?

[Natalia Petruzale]

Two things. One, our culture holds up fitness as this moral pursuit, right? So that exercise is something really important, and it's good, and it's actually okay to spend. Spend a lot of money on that because it's in pursuit of health, which is like a noble thing to spend money on, as opposed to, hey, I bought this, you know, very expensive watch, or I'm going on this crazy vacation, or this fancy handbag. Like, all of that feels a little bit kind of indulgent. Whereas spending money on exercise feels like you're investing in something important, something that is, you know, for your health. And then I think, you know, why don't people follow through on it? Well, I think that, you know, a lot of people are enticed to spend so much money because we hold up, as I said, fitness as this, like, very positive, virtuous act, and they want to believe they're that virtuous person, even if it's not something they can make room for in their life because it's hard. Like you said, sprinting until you're out of breath is hard. And I also think a lot of programs, you know, tend to market themselves. I don't want to say dishonestly, but like any marketing program, they tend to be like, you know, selling, oh, you're going to look like this in 10 days, or it's so fun, or it's so easy, or you're going to look like this person on the COVID And that quite often is not really what people get when they sign up for it. But I understand the fantasy and why people keep doing it.

[Marcus Collins]

Yeah.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I've always thought that. That the reason people bail is because they don't see the results. And they. They. It takes too long and it's too much effort. Effort. And when you don't see results for doing what you do, it's really hard to stick with it. And when you don't look like the model on the COVID You don't even look close to that. You don't look that different than when you started. Well, then why am I doing this?

[Natalia Petruzale]

Well, I think that that is correct for some people, for sure. But another narrative that I find very common with people who actually do stick with exercise is that they sign up for something because they think they want to lose weight or they think they have these, this very kind of like, narrow idea of these physical results that they want to achieve. And then they don't always, quite often they don't achieve those particular physical results, but they end up getting outcomes that, that are very positive in other ways. So that the results that they see are, they make a new friend group at the gym, they feel like their mental health is better. They do lose weight, they don't have the six pack, but their jeans fit a little bit better. They don't have back pain when they're picking up boxes or whatever. And I think that that is common in the industry. People sign up with these very like, narrow, usually weight loss or like physical transformation goals. And the ones that stick around, stick around because they get something more out of it. But I think, you know, it would be a fantasy to say that we should like, let go of, you know, kind of selling the idea that exercise helps with physical transformation, because I do think that's important to a lot of people. But I do think that we should expand our definition of what that physical transformation looks like, because for a lot of people, it's the alleviation of pain, it's being more flexible, it is losing weight, but not necessarily to look like a supermodel, but to, you know, have your own body composition shift in a way that may not even be totally visible, but that, you know, reflects a more healthy body composition. And so I think all of that needs to be part of our conversation. Unfortunately, none of that fits into like one Instagram post or one, you know, or the kind of victim, very quick fire way that we are marketed fitness.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, since you've looked at this, is there a path, is there a formula that is more likely to work for people if you answer these questions? If you follow this, you're more likely to find something you'll stick with. Or is it just a try and fail, try and, and error?

[Natalia Petruzale]

I think trial and error is, is definitely important because the nice thing about the fitness industry being so mature is there's so many options out there, whether they're digital or in person or, you know, whatnot. So I think trying a lot of things is Important. But I also think that you've got to be really, really honest with yourself about what you are going to do and what you're prepared to do. If you are not a morning person, don't tell yourself you're going to wake up every morning at 5am and go running, because it will never happen. Not if you have your sister who you would love to catch up with. How about you make an appointment to meet her or to get on the phone with her and you say, at that time I'm going to walk around the track for the hour that we spend together. I'm going to do that twice a week. Like that's something that you're going to do. And then I think there's also like, you know, knowing what motivates you. I think that there are all these like couch to 5k programs that start with like very, very small increments of run walking and get you to like compete in a 5k race. If you're just starting out that that is pretty manageable. As scary as it can seem to think you'd be running a race. And then I cannot overestimate the sense of accomplishment that comes from training for something like, for a race, even a 5K, which is a relatively small thing, and crossing that finish line and knowing that you did that, I think that that can be like shifting the results part of it to an accomplishment rather. An accomplishment like an event, rather than, oh, I have to lose this many pounds or my body has to look a particular way. I think that's super important. I also encourage that unless you are engaging in like a full nutrition plan, you don't make weight loss your primary goal. Because you know that saying abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym is like not wrong. You can't really lose weight through only exercise. And you know, I'm not that kind of doctor to give that advice. But I think that it's not good for people to associate success or failure of a workout program primarily through weight loss loss. Because you really need bigger lifestyle changes than just exercise to achieve that.

[Mike Carruthers]

But it is interesting how many people believe that exercise, running and walking, going to the gym, all that is the key to weight loss when it isn't.

[Natalia Petruzale]

And we've been fed that though, like, right. That's what you're told all the time. Diet and exercise, diet and exercise. And it's true that diet and exercise are so important for health, but they're not equally, you know, powerful in terms of weight loss at all.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. And I do remember talking to A doctor on this podcast who said that exercise is very good at keeping weight off, but not so much getting weight off.

[Natalia Petruzale]

Yeah, well, as they say, exercise is part of a healthy lifestyle. So yeah, I think that that's true and I think that that is in part because they, they say that exercise, consistent exercise helps with food cravings. It also creates structure in your diet day. It tends to help with sleep. And people who sleep better and longer tend to have healthier diets. So it really is a kind of virtuous cycle. I mean, I, like I say I'm not that kind of doctor. I'm a historian, but of course I read quite a bit of the research on all of these things and one of the things that I found really interesting and compelling is that a bunch of doctors who were like, usually very sort of like restrained in the, in the way that they're talking about the research, they say, you know, we don't usually say things like this, but if there was a so called like magic bullet or silver bullet around health, it probably would be consistent exercise. That consistent exercise just has all kinds of positive health outcomes, mental, social, physical. That, that's like really something that they just recommend across the board.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it, it does seem that it is such a universal desire to, to have the benefits of exercise that people talk about it all the time, the time. And it's, I think, important to have this conversation to help understand why people don't and what can motivate people to do it. And I appreciate your time. I've been talking with Natalia Petrizella. She is a historian of contemporary American politics and culture and she is author of the book Fit Nation, the Gains and Pains of America's Exercise Obsession. There's a link to that book in the show notes. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on today, Nick.

[Natalia Petruzale]

Natalia, thank you so much. Have a great day.

[Mike Carruthers]

Back in 1966, 350 students signed up for a psychological survey on personal development and happiness. And then researchers followed them for years. And the results of the study are fascinating and encouraging. It turns out that people can and do make big changes in life, life at any age. We do have a belief in our culture that you really need to set your course in life when you're young. But many participants in this survey made drastic life changes for the better long after they became adults. In fact, many people who were considered slackers in their youth really caught up to their peers in later life, both socially and professionally. The point is, it is never too late to take a different path to a more fulfilling and life, unless you think it's too late. And that is something you should know. One of the great things about the audience for this podcast, people like you, is how generous people are leaving ratings and reviews on Apple podcasts. I mean, we have thousands and thousands of ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, all the platforms that allow ratings and reviews. People have been very generous and I would certainly encourage you to add your voice to the chorus and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off on unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now. You call it an early present for next year. What do you have to lose? Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time.

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[Natalia Petruzale]

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[Vulgar History Podcast Host]

The Regency Era. You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place or the time when when Jane Austen wrote her books. But the Regency Era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history. And on the Vulgar History podcast, we're going to be looking at the balls, the gowns and all the scandal of the Regency era. Vulgar History is a women's history podcast, and our Regency Era series will be focusing on the most rebellious women of this time. That includes Jane Austen herself, who is maybe more radical than you might have thought. We'll also be talking about queer icons like Anne Lister, scientists like Mary Anning and Ada Lovelace, as well as other scandalous actresses, royal mistresses, rebellious princesses and other lesser known figures who made history happen in England in the Regency era. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcasts.