The Psychology of Crowds & Where Did Life Come From?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Psychology of Crowds & Where Did Life Come From?"

Something You Should Know Episode featuring Dan Hancocks and Mario Livio

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers delves into two profound topics: the intricate psychology behind crowd behavior and the enigmatic origins of life on Earth. By engaging with experts Dan Hancocks, author of How Crowds Made the Modern World, and astrophysicist Mario Livio, co-author of Is Earth Exceptional? The Quest for Cosmic Life, Mike provides listeners with a deep exploration of human social dynamics and the fundamental questions surrounding life’s beginnings.

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1. The Psychology of Crowds

Guest: Dan Hancocks, Author of "How Crowds Made the Modern World"

Dan Hancocks challenges long-held misconceptions about crowd behavior, arguing that much of what we know is based on outdated theories with political underpinnings.

• Debunking Mob Mentality

  Hancocks asserts, "Essentially everything that we've been told about crowd behavior is wrong" (00:45). He criticizes the late 19th-century crowd theorists who coined terms like "mob mentality" without empirical evidence, suggesting their work was influenced by fears of mass protests and democratic movements. This historical context has led to the enduring stereotype of crowds as inherently irrational and barbaric.

• Social Identification and Kinship

  A central concept introduced by Hancocks is "social identification," which refers to the kinship and solidarity people feel within a crowd. He explains, "We feel affirmed. We feel validated in our beliefs" (06:10). This sense of belonging can elevate shared experiences, such as collective laughter at a concert or unified cheering at a sports event, creating moments of intense joy and connection.

• Dynamic and Diverse Crowd Behavior

  Contrary to the monolithic view of crowds, Hancocks emphasizes the diversity within group behaviors. "Crowd behavior is dynamic, it's varied, it's diverse" (15:28). He provides examples such as self-policing within riots, where individuals may simultaneously engage in destructive actions while others work to mitigate chaos. Additionally, he highlights positive interactions, like people in a mosh pit supporting one another when someone falls (15:28).

• Evolutionary Perspectives

  Hancocks draws on evolutionary biology to explain the human inclination to join crowds. He references Barbara Ehrenreich's Dancing in the Streets, suggesting that early humans bonded through collective activities like dancing around fire, which fostered group cohesion essential for survival (07:44). This evolutionary drive persists today, motivating individuals to seek out communal experiences despite potential inconveniences.

• Impact of Modern Events

  Reflecting on the COVID-19 pandemic, Hancocks notes how the absence of crowds made events feel "ghostly" and incomplete (06:58). This observation underscores the fundamental human need for social interaction and the intangible value that crowds bring to public gatherings and performances.

• Crowds and Violence

  The discussion also covers why celebratory crowds sometimes turn violent. Hancocks posits that factors like adrenaline, alcohol consumption, and existing frustrations can transform joy into chaos (20:25). He challenges the notion of contagion, explaining that individuals with predispositions to violence may act out more freely within a crowd due to diminished inhibitions (18:35).

Notable Quote:

"Crowds often do things that I disapprove of as well, but it doesn't do us any good to pretend that those people in crowds who are throwing bricks through windows are mad. They're not. They have a clear reason for doing it, and we need to interrogate what that reason is." — Dan Hancocks (13:38)

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2. Where Did Life Come From?

Guest: Mario Livio, Astrophysicist and Author of "Is Earth Exceptional? The Quest for Cosmic Life"

Mario Livio explores the scientific quest to understand the origins of life on Earth and the broader implications for life elsewhere in the universe.

• Chemistry to Biology

  Livio clarifies that life did not emerge from nothing but rather evolved from complex chemical processes. "Life started from chemistry, namely, on the early Earth, there were all kinds of chemical compounds" (30:38). He explains how molecules like RNA and amino acids, essential building blocks of life, can form under early Earth conditions, although the complete pathway from chemistry to biology remains elusive (31:17).

• Age of Life on Earth

  Discussing the timeline, Livio notes that the earliest life forms appear around 3.5 to 3.7 billion years ago, suggesting life began relatively soon after Earth's formation 4.6 billion years ago (32:28). This rapid emergence raises questions about the likelihood of life arising elsewhere under similar conditions.

• Search for Extraterrestrial Life

  Addressing the scarcity of confirmed extraterrestrial life, Livio points out that despite the vast number of planets, we have yet to find conclusive evidence outside Earth. He mentions past claims, such as the Viking experiments on Mars and potential fossilized life in meteorites, noting that none have been substantiated (34:31).

• Statistical Possibilities

  Livio discusses the common argument that the universe's enormity implies life must exist elsewhere. However, he counters that without knowing the exact probability of life emerging, it's statistically feasible that life could be exceedingly rare despite the sheer number of planets (36:11).

• Conditions for Life

  Emphasizing the necessity of specific conditions, Livio explains that liquid water is crucial as a solvent for biochemical reactions. "We think that liquid water on the surface, on a rocky surface of another planet is an absolute must" (40:44). He also explores the improbability of alternative biochemistries, such as silicon-based life, which lacks the versatility of carbon chemistry (40:44).

• Laboratory Simulations

  While scientists have successfully created some life’s building blocks in the lab, such as parts of RNA and amino acids, Livio acknowledges that fully replicating living cells remains a work in progress. He anticipates breakthroughs within the next decade that may illuminate the transition from chemistry to biology (43:50).

• The Copernican Principle

  Livio subscribes to the Copernican principle, which posits that Earth and its inhabitants are not unique in the cosmos. "It's a bit arrogant to think that we are the Only ones out there" (36:11). This perspective drives the hope that life exists elsewhere, even as concrete evidence remains elusive.

Notable Quote:

"If you are someone who is predisposed to throwing a brick through a window and you join a crowd of rioters and you see the guy next to you throw a brick, then you are disinhibited by having joined that crowd of rioters in order to do the thing you wanted to do. That's not the same as contagion." — Dan Hancocks (18:35)

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Conclusion

This episode of Something You Should Know masterfully intertwines human social behavior with the profound question of life's origins. Through the expert insights of Dan Hancocks and Mario Livio, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how crowds influence individual actions and the scientific endeavors to uncover life's beginnings. Mike Carruthers skillfully navigates these complex topics, offering a rich and engaging narrative that both educates and captivates.

Notable Quotes:

1. Dan Hancocks (00:45): "Essentially everything that we've been told about crowd behavior is wrong."
2. Dan Hancocks (06:10): "We feel affirmed. We feel validated in our beliefs."
3. Dan Hancocks (15:28): "Crowd behavior is dynamic, it's varied, it's diverse."
4. Dan Hancocks (13:38): "Crowds often do things that I disapprove of as well, but it doesn't do us any good to pretend that those people in crowds who are throwing bricks through windows are mad."
5. Mario Livio (30:38): "Life started from chemistry, namely, on the early Earth, there were all kinds of chemical compounds."
6. Mario Livio (36:11): "It's a bit arrogant to think that we are the Only ones out there."
7. Dan Hancocks (18:35): "That's not the same as contagion. That's not the same as me or you civilized gentlemen who would never throw a brick through a window joining a crowd."

This comprehensive summary provides a thorough overview of the episode's key discussions, enriched with direct quotes and timestamps for reference, making it accessible and informative for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Mario Livio]

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[Dan Hancocks]

Essentially everything that we've been told about crowd behavior is wrong. And when you hear phrases like mob mentality is based on late 19th century Crowd theorists who didn't actually do any serious empirical work studying how crowds behave at all.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also something uni if you're a Venmo user and the Origins of Life we know life comes from other life, but how did it all begin from nothing?

[Mario Livio]

It's not from nothing. I mean the universe as a whole may have started from nothing. Life started from chemistry. So when we talk about origin of life is how does chemistry evolve into biology?

[Mike Carruthers]

All this today on something you should know. There are just some things you come across that you have to tell people about. And because I like you have a cell phone and I know it can get expensive, I'm telling people about Mint Mobile. They offer Premium Wireless for $15 a month when you purchase a three month plan. Now I have Mint Mobile and before that I was paying a lot more than that for my wireless plan. And I'm wondering why would anyone do that? You see, all Mint Mobile plans come with high speed data, unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with your existing contacts too. So ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile's deal and get three months of premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month to get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month. Go to mintmobile.com something that's mintmobile.com something. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com something $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month new customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Something you should know fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. Hi. You know, I get those pictures that pop up on Facebook of from some group that sends out pictures of the good old days, days gone by and there was a picture of somebody standing in front of a gas station and the gas was like 49 cents a gallon. Well, it's not 49 cents a gallon anymore, is it? So by now you've probably heard all the tips and tricks to improve gas mileage and one of them is to slow down. And Consumer Reports did the math on some of this and slowing down has a bigger impact than I think you probably would imagine if you drive. And of course it depends on the type of car you drive. But if you drive say 65 miles an hour, you're getting about 8 miles less per gallon than if you drove at 55. At 75 miles an hour you're losing about 14 miles per gallon. So that's about 250 miles you've lost on an 18 gallon tank of gas. And this is surprising, I think to most people that if you have a bike rack on your car, you really need to take it off when you're not using it. The rack alone. Without a bicycle, the rack alone eats up about five miles a gallon. And if you add two bikes, you're losing up to 15 miles per gallon because it messes up the aerodynamics. And that is something you should know. As you have no doubt noticed, people act differently in crowds versus when they're alone or in a one on one situation. Being in a crowd changes you. And I'm sure you've heard the term crowd mentality or mob mentality. There's no doubt that people change, or at least some people change and do things when they're part of a crowd that they would never do alone. People at a concert or a sporting event, people at a party or a celebration, or people in a mob. The crowd changes them. So what is it about crowds and why is this important for all of us to understand? That's what Dan Hancocks is here to talk about. Dan has researched this topic thoroughly and he's authored a book called How Crowds Made the Modern World. Hi Dan. Welcome.

[Dan Hancocks]

Hey Mike. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So everyone has had this experience. When you're with a group of people, like in a theater, you're watching a funny movie and collectively you laugh at something that if you were watching that movie at home you would never Laugh at you at a sporting event, will stand up and cheer along with the crowd when the team scores a goal or hits a home run or whatever. You would never do that if you were sitting in your living room watching it on tv. The crowd has an energy. The crowd has a force, a power. And what is that?

[Dan Hancocks]

It's amazing, isn't it? It's something that crowd psychologists call social identification, which is a jargony phrase, but what it describes is exactly that kinship with our fellow travelers. We feel affirmed. We feel validated in our beliefs, or, you know, even if that's our belief in what we. Something that we think is funny, that makes it so different. During the pandemic lockdown, the COVID pandemic lockdown, when we were denied these opportunities, and I don't know about you, Mike, but we. You know, I watched some online comedy performances from my favorite comedians, and I watched football games that were taking place in stadiums with no. No crowd there in the building. And it was like a ghost spectacle. It was. It was just not even close to being the same as usual.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, I remember here at some baseball games, watching them on TV during COVID that, you know, they put, like, fake cardboard people in the seats just to make it look like there were people there. Because to watch a baseball game or a foot or really any sporting event that normally has crowds and to watch it in an empty arena or stadium, there's. Boy, there is really something missing.

[Mario Livio]

It's.

[Dan Hancocks]

It's so unsettling, isn't it? I mean, that's. It was that. It was exactly that gap that really captivated me. And I was. I made me want to understand what it was that we were missing. And it's. It is that kinship. It's that solidarity. It's, you know, laughing louder because the person next to you is laughing, and you're enjoying that fact.

[Mike Carruthers]

And yet we are also sometimes in crowds, and we really don't connect. You know, if you're in a crowded subway or you're. You're with a crowd, but you really wish you weren't, so there's a crowd that doesn't do much for you.

[Dan Hancocks]

Yeah. So I think that this is a really key distinction that crowd psychologists make between what they would call a physical crowd and a psychological crowd. Sometimes these two things overlap, and sometimes they don't. So if you're in, say, Penn Station in New York and overwhelmed and bewildered and maybe a little bit lost, and everybody's stressed and pushing past you in an agitated fash, you and everybody else there are not part of a psychological crowd. You are a physical crowd because you're in the same place. But you're not bonded together by some shared belief or shared shared value. It's the big sports game or the big concert for your favorite band. That's when you have that social identification with your fellow travelers. That's when you get the crowd joy rather than just the slightly overwhelming feeling that there's a lot of strangers here and that you are perhaps feeling claustrophobic or bewildered, but certainly not enjoying yourself, not having a good time.

[Mike Carruthers]

I remember hearing someone talk about how when you think about it, when you go to a concert, it's a pain in the neck, you've got to park and then you're going to have to get your car out later. When everybody leaves at the same time, it's a hassle, it isn't fun in the sense, and the music never sounds as good as it did on the record. That you would be in terms of enjoying the music. Being at home would have been probably better. But there is something about going to that concert with fellow fans of whoever you're going to go see that drives people in droves to go see them.

[Dan Hancocks]

There's a very strong argument that that's an evolutionary imperative that's driving us to that concert that drives us towards any crowd of like minded souls. I draw on the books of Barbara Ehrenreich, who's a huge journalistic hero of mine. She wrote a great book called Dancing in the streets in 2007 which made the argument that early human societies, when you initially had groups of cave dwellers in family groups, they left those caves for the first time and started bonding together in the first micro civilizations. Groups of 20 to 30 people larger than the family group because they were able to survive predators like saber tooth tigers by being in larger groups. Well, how did they bond together? Well, language was part of that. The evolution of language was part of that. But she argues that actually partying together, you know, banging one rock against another rock, dancing around the fire, was the way that early humans bonded. So when we feel the drive to overcome those hassles and go to the rock concert, go to the sports arena where obviously our view is not going to be nearly as good as if we were watching it on TV at home. Like that's another example of that. Right? We do that because there is something innately human and innately necessary that we desire in being among groups of people that we share a bond with.

[Mike Carruthers]

So this is all very interesting and I imagine everyone listening has Experienced that crowd effect of, you know, being part of a crowd. But other than being interesting, what do we do with this? Why is this important? What's the big so what here?

[Dan Hancocks]

The driving argument that I've come to through years and years of reporting on crowd behavior, both and crowd policing and how people behave in protests and carnivals and festivals, but also riots. I reported on the 2011 riots in England that were the biggest in our history. So I've seen the dark side as well. And what I've learned from all of this is that essentially everything that we've been told about crowd behavior for the last hundred odd is wrong. And it has a political agenda to it. So when you hear phrases like mob mentality or the madness of crowds, or the idea that violence and bad behavior in crowds is contagious, think of the angry mob in the Simpsons with their pitchforks, their flaming torches and so on. That characterization is based on late 19th century Crowd theorists who didn't actually do any serious empirical work studying how crowds behave at all. What they were doing was responding to. To people who are processing in the streets of the great cities of Europe, cities like Paris, with fear. The people who wrote these initial works of crowd theory and told us all that crowds are deranged, animalistic, that we are in some sort of primitive state when we join a crowd. And that's why we give in to the madness of crowds. They were doing so because they were scared of the people that were pushing for democracy in the late 19th century, the mass protests by working class people and by women, indeed, as well, who were excluded from the vote. It was very much a agenda to delegitimize crowds and to say that these. Well, these people are insane if they're demanding democracy and universal suffrage. And unfortunately, those. Those ideas continue to serve people in power. And it's. I would argue, it's why we continue to hear crowds demonized as mobs to this day. You know, crowds often do things that I disapprove of as well, but it doesn't. It does us no good to pretend that those people in crowds who are throwing bricks through windows are mad. They're not. They have a clear reason for doing it, and we need to interrogate what that reason is.

[Mike Carruthers]

If the conventional wisdom about crowd mentality and crowd behavior is wrong, what's right? What is crowd behavior? What is crowd mentality?

[Dan Hancocks]

It's a great question. So the work being done in universities now by the sort of leading academic crowd psychologists, of which I am not one, you know, I'm A just journalists, but I've spoken to a lot of these people, says that actually crowd behavior is a lot more dynamic, it's a lot more varied and it's a lot more diverse than this idea that there is one homogenous mindset among among a crowd. So take, you know, protests or indeed the riots in London in 2011. There were people doing, you know, criminal things during those riots. They were smashing windows and they were looting. There are also people within the crowd trying to persuade the more violent ones not to trash shops or loot shops or smash up cars. So it's what crowd psychologists call self policing. Now, they may not win that argument, but the idea that all crowd behavior is homogenous is provably untrue. There is always going to be competing instincts within any crowd. Another example I like to point to is in a mosh pit in a rock show that looks like very unappealing behavior to a lot of people. You know, young people usually throwing themselves around, hurtling themselves into each other in the name of dancing. As soon as someone falls to the floor in that environment, everyone stops and picks that person up. It's the first thing you learn if you're into rock or punk or rap music. So I would say that crowd behavior is dynamic, it's diverse, it's varied. And there are frequently conversations going on within the crowd about how that crowd behavior should evolve and what the next step should be.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're talking about crowds and how people's behavior changes in a crowd. My guest is Dan Hancocks. He is author of a book called How Crowds Made the Modern World. You know, today anyone can sell anything online. And if you use Shopify to do it, you are setting yourself up for success. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Whether you're just setting up shop or you have a physical store, or even if you've had a million orders or more. Shopify will help you grow your business. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers. They have the Internet's best converting checkout 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And what I love about Shopify and what you can see when you peek inside. No matter how big or small you are, Shopify offers everything to manage and control your business. And what's really great is you don't need to know anything about web design or coding or anything. Plus, Shopify's award winning help is there to support you every step of the way. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase go to shopify.comsysk to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.comSYSK Dell Technologies Black Friday event is live and if you've been waiting for an AI ready PC, this is their biggest sale of the year. Tech enthusiasts love this sale because it's all the newest hits plus all the greatest hits all on sale at once. Savings on Dell technologies. Most popular PCs that accelerate AI with Intel Core Ultra processors are here, like the XPS 16. So if you're ready to step up all the things you like to do, streaming, surfing, multitasking, whatever, Dell Technologies AI Ready PCs are the perfect upgrade. And for the best of Intel Core Ultra processors, look for Intel Evo Edition laptops engineered to do it all. Just visit Dell.com deals whether you're treating yourself or thinking of others, these Black Friday prices were worth the wait. But it's only for a limited time. Shop [e-mail] deals so Dan in a crowd, doesn't somebody kind of have to lead the crowd? Doesn't somebody have to be the first one to throw the brick through the window? If it's a riot or something, somebody has to go first. And then it does seem, and I think you said that you know, that this idea that it's contagious is wrong, but it doesn't look wrong. It looks exactly right. Somebody throws a brick through the window and then all of a sudden there's 20 bricks in the window.

[Dan Hancocks]

Yeah. So the key distinction in terms of the idea of crowd contagion is that in original crowd theory, the argument would be that anybody joining a crowd of rioters would immediately become susceptible to all of its worst behaviors and be a victim of that contagion. So Gustave Le Bon, the founder of crowd theory in the 19th century, this French eccentric aristocrat argued that even the most civilized man, upon joining a crowd, becomes a barbarian. They become know, devoid of all of their usual rationality and sense. What crowd psychologists today are finding is that if you are someone who is predisposed to throwing a brick through a window and you join a crowd of rioters and you see the guy next to you throw a brick, then you are disinhibited by having joined that crowd of rioters in order to do the thing you wanted to do, that's not the same as contagion. That's not the same as me or you civilized gentlemen who would never throw a brick through a window joining a crowd. We would maintain Our sense of propriety and order and our sense of what is right and wrong. So it's the distinction between contagion and becoming disinhibited enough to do what you would like to do.

[Mike Carruthers]

One of the situations that I think stumps a lot of people when a team, a sports team wins the championship. There's a celebration in the town, in the city where that. And it very often turns into trouble. Cars get burned, overturned, windows get. And I never understood that because this is supposed to be a celebration, kind of a city spirit thing. And it turns ugly and I don't know why.

[Dan Hancocks]

Yeah, it's such an interesting example. I think I'd really like to get more stuck into that particular type of crowd behavior. I feel like it's particularly common in the United States and Canada. From what I've seen. We have trouble at football matches in Europe. Britain was famous for that. Historically. That's changed dramatically in the last 30 years, I would add. And actually we have very few arrests ever in British football matches these days. The idea of a celebratory moment becoming one of violence is intriguing. I don't have any easy answers for you, I'm afraid, Mike. It's something about the catharsis of that victory. I mean, it's also going to be about alcohol, let's be honest. That's certainly part of it. That drunken behavior leads more directly to reckless behavior. There's no doubt about that. I think there's something about the raised levels of adrenaline, the race levels of alcohol consumption, and then perhaps and frustrations from other parts of people's lives being unleashed in what ought to be a celebratory crowd moment and becomes a riot. I mean, the difficult truth that's connected to this actually, Mike, is that people get joy out of riots. It's an unpalatable truth, but that is something that successive pieces of serious crowd psychological work have uncovered. That people find joy in a riot. The deep seated psychological motives for that is something that's much harder to unpack. But it must speak to some sort of need to vent frustrations. As illegitimate as we may see, though the violent venting of those frustrations isn't.

[Mike Carruthers]

That interesting because you would think if you're celebrating a team victory that you would get joy from that. Not you would get joy from let's cause a lot of trouble and break a lot of things. But. But I think you're right. I mean, you see it all the time. That that's because very often when the camera shows those people rioting, there's big smiles on their face, absolutely huge smiles.

[Dan Hancocks]

You know, I think of the Woodstock 99 documentary, which, you know, I was, I was over in the UK when Woodstock 99 happened. But I was very much into a lot of the music that was being played as a teenager in London. And for people who haven't seen it, the Woodstock 99 festival descended into absolute carnage and chaos and people breaking stuff and setting fire to these giant trucks that exploded. And the reasons for that are many and varied. It was mostly that the organizers of that festival denied the festival goers water and shade and food and they were driven slowly, a bit crazy. But there's a moment towards the end of the documentary where this guy who's now in his mid-40s and experienced that like cataclysmically bad and badly run festival, and at the end of this three hour documentary which you're watching with your jaw wide open, this guy says, you know what? It was still the best time I ever had. He was remembering the thrills and albeit kind of chaos of his youth.

[Mike Carruthers]

But hasn't anybody the next morning gone to the jail and asked the people who got arrested, what was that about? And get an answer like, well, I just got carried away. What's the excuse for why we did what we did?

[Dan Hancocks]

It's often boredom gets cited quite a lot. A need for just to see something happen. Even if that thing is in London, a double decker bus going up in flames in riots, people cite things like inequality. There are often political motives that come out that, you know, they feel that they haven't got a stake in society and so why not burn it all down? And occasionally people would just, you know, say that they happen to be passing by and it was sort of almost opportunistic that there was no great thought process that went into it. Now it's not the same as it being mindless. You know, those people still have control over their senses. And when we describe bad behavior in crowds is mindless, we're kind of letting those people off the hook, I believe. But there's a real range of answers to that question. I think they're all completely fascinating. What motivates someone to take part in.

[Mike Carruthers]

A riot, do you think? Or is there any evidence that when we see that happen at a celebration that turns bad, that people, some of the people came there for that purpose? Or was it spontaneous, let's burn the bus? Or is it, hey, there's a thing downtown, let's go cause some trouble?

[Dan Hancocks]

I think what we find is it's going to be A mixture. So there'll be, you know, there'll be people who, for whom this was always part of the plan that they were kind of geared up for it. You know, when we had these far right sort of fascist riots, they were quite small in scale, but they were nonetheless terrifying. In Britain earlier this summer, some of those people had experience of being part of far right street movements. They had previous criminal convictions for violence and for, and for fighting with the police or indeed like racist attacks. So, you know, I feel like there's a small minority for whom like this is their set of normal behaviors and they're always going to be first in the pool, as it were. And then you'll get the more casual people for whom, you know, maybe they need to be in that, in that sport and they need to be a bit drunk and they maybe need to have had a bad week and that's enough. Along with that identification with their fellow sports team fans in order to motivate them to, to, to do the bad thing, to do the thing that carries risk for them and to transgress the social norms which say you don't throw a brick through a window, you don't set fire to a double decker bus.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I think all of us have heard of that term crowd psychology or mob mentality and kind of have an inkling of what it's about. But it's really good to get a deeper understanding of what it is, what it means and some of the myths about it. I've been speaking with Dan Hancocks and the name of his book is How Crowds Made the Modern World. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Great, Dan, good to have you on.

[Dan Hancocks]

Thanks so much for having me, Mike. I really enjoyed it.

[Rob Benedict]

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[Mike Carruthers]

Here's a question you may have thought about, as have many others. How did life originate? Right? Because we all know life comes from other life. You came from your mother and father. New plants come from other plants. Life cannot just spontaneously exist. And so if that's true, how did the first life come to exist? How did life of any kind first originate? Of course, religions offer an answer, but what about science? And here's another question. If you look around the earth, you see life is plentiful. We have all types of animal life, plant life. We have huge life forms and life so small you can't see it with the naked eye. Life is everywhere on our planet. So why is it not everywhere, anywhere else, or at least as far as we can see? People theorize that the universe is so vast that there must be life elsewhere. But if there is, we haven't found it yet. It seems beyond Earth, life is rare. Why? Here, to take a scientific look at these questions is Mario Livio. He's an astrophysicist who has worked with the Hubble Space Telescope. He is the author of seven books. His latest, which he co authored with Professor Jack Sostak, is titled Is Earth Exceptional? The Quest for Cosmic Life. Hi Mario. Welcome to something you should know.

[Mario Livio]

Thank you for having me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So let's start with that first question. Where did the first life come from? Because how could life just originate from nothing?

[Mario Livio]

So it's not from nothing. I mean, the universe as a whole may have started from nothing. Life started from chemistry, namely, on the early Earth, there were all kinds of chemical compounds, and there were certain conditions. So when we talk about origin of life is how does chemistry evolve into biology?

[Mike Carruthers]

And the answer to that question is.

[Mario Livio]

After the last few decades of research, we already know some of the things. For example, rna, which is very, very important. It's one of the building blocks of life. We know how to make two of the bases of rna. We know how the phosphates and the sugars are done. And out of the four bases that make rna, we know how two could have been made from chemistry on the early Earth. Similarly, if you look at proteins, the building blocks of proteins are amino acids. There are 20 such amino acids. What researchers have managed to do is to show that from the same type of chemistry that makes the building blocks of RNA, you can make 12, at least, of the 20 building blocks of proteins. So basically, we know how to make some of the building blocks of life, or how Earth could have made some of the building blocks of life from chemistry. We still don't know for all of those.

[Mike Carruthers]

And when did we think that might have happened?

[Mario Livio]

You know, the earliest life forms that we find on Earth are about 3.5 to 3.7 billion years old. So life on Earth probably started around that time, possibly a little bit earlier, maybe as early as 4 billion years ago. The Earth itself is about 4.6 billion years old. So relatively speaking, quite early on in the life of the Earth, life on Earth already appeared.

[Mike Carruthers]

So given that life outside of Earth seems to be very rare, we can't find it. And given that the conditions for life on Earth are so particular, it has to be just so in order for life to exist. It makes people think perhaps this was the work of a God of some force that created life, because it just seems so impossible for it to have just happened on its own by accident.

[Mario Livio]

Indeed, we still don't know to tell with absolute certainty whether or not the emergence of life is inevitable, given the right chemicals and the right conditions. Or is it some sort of a fluke chemical accident that is extraordinarily rare and happened here, but maybe not has not happened elsewhere from here. To jump to the conclusion that, you know, somebody must have done that, that requires a different type of thinking. And, you know, of course, religious people, you know, might think this way. But what scientists are trying to do is to see whether or not just, you know, given that the chemistry was there, that life could have happened by itself.

[Mike Carruthers]

And I think it comes as a surprise, at least to some people, that we have not discovered life beyond Earth. I think people believe we have.

[Mario Livio]

Yes. There have been a few claims in the past that life has been discovered, in particular on Mars. For example, there were the Viking experiments, those were landers that landed on Mars. And there was an experiment there which originally was thought to show that there is some life form in the Martian soil. But today almost nobody believes that. Then there was a meteorite that arrived to Earth from Mars, at which there was a claim that maybe some fossils of life are found inside it. Again, those are thought now not to represent life, so we didn't find life on Mars. There is also a claim about something that may have been created by life on Venus that is also still very non conclusive. And biosignatures in planets around other stars, none so far has been convincing that there is life on those planets.

[Mike Carruthers]

So you often hear the argument that because the universe is so big, because there are so many stars, so many planets, there has to be life somewhere else, it's just statistically impossible to imagine. That's not true.

[Mario Livio]

Yes, you're right. Many people say that. What do you say? However. However, I will say that it is still statistically possible to imagine that there is no life. But you know, look, I would like to think that there is life elsewhere. You point out correctly that there are many planets, a bit like Earth in our own galaxy, the Milky Way, perhaps maybe even as many as a billion such planets. There are many, many galaxies in the observable universe. They number probably in the trillions. So you could say, well, with trillions of galaxies and a billion planets in each one of them, a bit like Earth, surely there must be life somewhere. And the answer is there might be. But surely is is not the correct answer, because we don't know yet what is the probability for life to emerge, even if the conditions are right. And you know, if you say there are a billion planets like Earth in this, in the Milky Way, we don't know yet whether the probability of life emerging is smaller or larger than one in a billion. So we cannot tell, you know, that surely life must have emerged somewhere. Although I must say I would like to think that perhaps life did start elsewhere, because, you know, I'm a great believer in what has become known as the Copernican principle, which basically says that we are nothing special. You know, starting with Copernicus, you know, he showed that in the solar system we're not at the center and so on. And many others have shown, continuously shown, that neither Earth nor life on Earth are something particularly special. So it's a bit arrogant to think that we are the Only ones out there. But we cannot say with certainty that we're not.

[Mike Carruthers]

When you say that there's nothing special about us or about Earth, then why can't you find life anywhere else? That, that in fact, the fact that there is so much life on Earth and every other planet that we can find is barren makes us pretty exceptional.

[Mario Livio]

Well, you know, there are very few planets, relatively speaking, so far, that we have actually been able to study. You see, in order to tell whether there is any life form on another planet, in particular an extrasolar planet, we need to be able to determine the composition of the atmosphere on such a planet. Well, we are just about starting to be able to do that using the James Webb Space Telescope. So we cannot say that, oh, how come we have not found life? We still did not have the right scientific equipment to be able to find life. We're just getting there now. Now, if in another, I'd say 10 to 20 years, there is a planned telescope called Habitable Worlds Telescope, which will probably be launched around 2040, that telescope will perhaps be able to characterize the composition of atmospheres of a few dozen extrasolar planets. If we don't find any life, then, then we will at least be able to say something statistical, namely to say, aha. Even if the conditions are right, you know, the chances of life emerging are smaller than, say, 1% or so. @ the moment, we are unable to say such things.

[Mike Carruthers]

So for life to exist on this planet, there are certain conditions that have to be met. Right. We need light and air and water. Life can't exist without those things. Is the assumption that those conditions must be somewhere else for life to exist? Or could there be life on another planet somewhere that doesn't have those conditions? It has entirely different conditions.

[Mario Livio]

Yeah, so you're right about some of those things. For example, we do think that liquid water is an absolute must because you need a solvent where all the chemistry has to start to take place. Now, experiments are done, as we speak, on the possibility of other types of solvents. But it does turn out, at least so far, that no other solvent is as good as water. So we think that liquid water on the surface, on a rocky surface of another planet is an absolute must. Now, could life itself be completely different? For example, the life we know is all carbon based. Could there be life that's not based on carbon? So again, experiments have been done, in particular, for example, silicon, which is the closest to carbon in terms of its chemical properties. Well, it turns out, yeah, it's closest, but it really does not allow for the same wealth of chemical reactions that carbon allows. So while I would say that we don't know with certainty that you cannot have silicon based life, I would say the chances for that are rather small. And similarly, other properties of life on Earth are being tested. Whether other things can happen, like the membranes of cells and so on, different type of membranes, or maybe not even membranes at all. So all of this is being researched, but at the moment we have not found a really good way to make complexity in general and life in particular, other than, you know, needing water, carbon and a few other things.

[Mike Carruthers]

So is the general scientific belief that life is, I guess, an accident that was just certain conditions were met and now we have life?

[Mario Livio]

Well, I pointed out that first of all, it's not a matter of belief. It is, you know, all needs to be confirmed by experiments and searches. You know, if, if we will find, after extensive searches, which you know, will only happen, like I said, about two decades or more from now, we will not find life even on extrasolar planets that appear to have all the right conditions for life to have emerged, then, you know, we will have to say that I wouldn't say maybe an accident, but certainly that it is rare and maybe even an accident in the sense that the conditions you need are so specific that they are very rarely satisfied.

[Mike Carruthers]

So we talked about it in the beginning, but I'm not sure I completely understand the answer. Has biology been created from chemistry in the lab on this planet?

[Mario Livio]

Well, not in the lab on the planet biology. We think that biology emerged from chemistry on the early Earth. In the lab, researchers have managed to create some of the building blocks of important building blocks so far, namely parts of rna, some of the building blocks of proteins, membranes that can grow and divide. So many, many of the characteristics of life have been produced in the lab, but not all of them so far. But, you know, the researchers who work on that do think that within, you know, another decade or so, they will be able to produce in the lab all the building blocks of life. And in particular, you know, that they will be able to produce something that is a living cell.

[Mike Carruthers]

Isn't that a little scary?

[Mario Livio]

Not to me, I must say. Look, I mean, this is not Frankenstein, you know, they are not creating some sort of a monster. We're talking about creating something that resembles a living cell. One living cell.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that's how we all started. Even Frankenstein.

[Mario Livio]

Yeah, that is correct. So at some point, you know, people will have to develop ethical rules and so on of what you can do and what you cannot do. But at this point, it is really the most basic building block of life.

[Mike Carruthers]

I understand that we haven't discovered life anywhere else and not yet. Not yet. But is there a sense that we will not just a hope, but based on what we know, it seems likely that if we keep looking long enough.

[Mario Livio]

Far enough, you know, there is definitely a chance that that will happen. And like I said, if it doesn't happen, we will at least be able to indeed put some statist real statistical numbers on how rare life probably is, which is interesting in itself. Of course, it's more interesting if we actually find life. Mind you, there is one type of life that we haven't mentioned here which, you know, some people think that maybe that's what's happening, which is that AI is starting to develop artificial intelligence. So at some point, maybe it's machines that become the really intelligent civilizations. And maybe biological intelligence is only a relatively brief phase in the evolution of complexity. If that is the case, then, you know, maybe even all intelligent life in our galaxy, if it exists, is actually dominated by some sort of machines and not by wet brains like ours.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I don't like that at all.

[Mario Livio]

Whether we like it or not, if that is where things are going, I.

[Mike Carruthers]

Still don't like it.

[Mario Livio]

Any control of that.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, it's just, it's so interesting because I remember seeing, when I was very young, saw that map that showed you where the Earth is in the Milky Way galaxy and we look so insignificant. We look and you know, you kind of think, well, we're like the center of the universe or at least the sun is or something. And when you see the big picture and we're in that little corner of the galaxy that nobody, you know, wouldn't even look at twice.

[Mario Livio]

In the galactic suburbs, basically correct.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, that it's very humbling. It's like, who are we? You know? But on the other hand, we can't find anybody else like us, so maybe we are exceptional. It's really. It makes your head hurt.

[Mario Livio]

It is fascinating, it is fun to.

[Mike Carruthers]

Talk about and it certainly makes you think. I've been speaking with Mario Livio. He is an astrophysicist who has worked with the Hubble Space Telescope and he is co author of a book called Is Earth the Quest for Cosmic Life? And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you for coming on today, Mario.

[Mario Livio]

Thank you very much for having me.

[Mike Carruthers]

I saw that Consumer Reports is very concerned in alerting people that if you use Venmo, seems like a lot of people Use Venmo. The default privacy setting allows the outside world to look through your contact lists, your friends, your payment history, who you pay, how much you pay, intimate information that can be exploited by scammers, stalkers, divorcing spouses, and just anybody who wants to snoop. I imagine there's some reason they do that. But in any event, you should know that you can change that setting and make your transactions private. It takes a little work, and in the show notes, I have linked to an article that takes you step by step through the process to make your Venmo transactions private. And that is something you should know. You know, a lot of people who listen to podcasts also write reviews. That's why. That's why we have, I think, over 5,000 reviews just on Apple. But we always like to get more because they do help. And it would only take you a moment to write a quick review of this podcast, hopefully attach five stars to it, and tell the world. I'm Mike, her brothers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. Ladies and gentlemen.

[Dan Hancocks]

What are you doing?

[Mike Carruthers]

What do you mean? Just keep it simple. I'm making the promo. Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros.

[Dan Hancocks]

Two guys that talk about Bravo.

[Mike Carruthers]

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav bro. No. Oh, dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple. I've seen promos on tv, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are gonna get tired of it already. We need some oomph. All right, then, fine. Let's try to do it with your voice. Brav Bros. Good job. Hi, this is Rob Benedict and I am Richard Speight. We were both on a little show you might know, called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run. 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers.

[Dan Hancocks]

It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great.

[Mike Carruthers]

We love him, but we're looking for, like, a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore. It's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.