Podcast Summary: "The Psychology of Lying & The Race for Outer Space"

Podcast: Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Date: August 23, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of "Something You Should Know" delves into two compelling topics: the psychology behind lying and the rapidly evolving commercial space industry. Host Mike Carruthers interviews psychologist Drew Curtis to explore why people lie, the consequences of deception, and how lying plays out in personal relationships. In the second half, journalist and author Ashley Vance discusses the privatization of outer space, the commercial motivations driving space exploration, and the major players shaping the future of space technology.

Segment 1: The Psychology of Lying

Guest: Drew Curtis, licensed psychologist and author of "Big Liars"

Why Do People Lie?

• Primary Motivations: People typically lie to avoid negative consequences, get away with something, or manage impressions. Sometimes, as Dr. Timothy Levine states: "People lie when the truth doesn’t work." (07:21)
• Developmental Patterns:
  • Lying begins in early childhood (around 2.5–3 years old).
  • Teenagers are the most frequent liars; adult lying declines as people recognize the difficulty and consequences associated with deception. (09:45)

Common Myths About Detecting Lies

• Gaze Aversion: The belief that liars avoid eye contact is a myth; research shows no consistent correlation. "Eye gaze is not a reliable indicator of deception... but surprisingly, that’s one of the cues most people believe even today." — Drew Curtis (08:45)

Pathological vs. Typical Lying

• Pathological Liars:
  • Some individuals lie habitually without clear gain; their lies can spiral, creating a web that's hard to manage (the “Hydra hypothesis”).
  • "Lies beget lies... it becomes really this bigger beast to manage than it initially was." — Drew Curtis (10:25)
• Truth Default Theory: Most people are honest most of the time; compulsive lying is concentrated among a small group.

White Lies, Relationships & Hypocrisy

• White Lies: Often told to spare feelings but can erode trust in the long run.
  • "People are somewhat hypocritical even with white lies in relationships. We think it's acceptable to tell white lies to those we're in a relationship with, but we don't think it's acceptable for them to do the same to us." — Drew Curtis (19:36)
  • Research suggests that, counterintuitively, white lies are negatively correlated with relational satisfaction. (19:36)
  • Cost of White Lies: They may lead to "deceiver's distrust," where the more you lie, the more you suspect being lied to, undermining trust even if the motivation was kindness. (20:44)

Types of Parental and Cultural Lies

• Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, etc.:
  • These are perceived as cultural narratives rather than lies and do not impact parent-child relational satisfaction.
  • The "Boogeyman" myth, however, negatively impacts the parent-child relationship, as it’s used for behavioral control. (24:52, 25:44)
• Exaggerated Encouragement: Saying “You’re the best artist I’ve ever seen” may be a harmless social lie if believed to be honest encouragement, but if not, it technically qualifies as deception. (26:49)

The Real Cost of Lying

• Trust is Fundamental: Both small and large lies can diminish trust in relationships, regardless of intent.
  • "It's not that you've lied to me, but it's that I can no longer trust you." — Mike Carruthers paraphrasing Nietzsche (18:03)
  • Even seemingly innocuous lies (white lies, social lubricants, Santa Claus) can sow seeds of distrust if discovered.

Notable Quotes

• “Most people tell zero lies within a 24 hour period… it’s only those instances where we think the truth won’t work that we lie.” — Drew Curtis (14:34)
• “The research indicates that white lies are actually negatively correlated with relational satisfaction. So while we think they don't have a cost, they actually do.” — Drew Curtis (19:36)
• “We have all these good intents in our mind of why we lie, but others are flat out bad people when they lie because they're liars.” — Drew Curtis (18:03)

Key Segment Timestamps

• [07:14] Introduction to guest Drew Curtis and the psychology of lying
• [08:24] Eye contact and myths about detecting liars
• [09:45] Developmental trajectory of lying from childhood to adulthood
• [10:25] The nature of pathological liars
• [13:12] When lying “works” and its real-world effectiveness
• [14:34] Data on how often people actually lie
• [17:43] The social consequence of being labeled a liar
• [19:36] Hypocrisy and harm of white lies in relationships
• [24:39] Navigating tricky truths with children (Santa Claus, boogeyman)
• [27:58] Final word: Trust is the true casualty of lying

Segment 2: The Race for Outer Space

Guest: Ashley Vance, science journalist and author of "When the Heavens Went on Sale"

The Shift from Government to Private Enterprise

• Historical Context: Space was initially the domain of government agencies for reasons of cost, bureaucracy, and patriotism.
• What Changed:
  • Stagnation in government programs created room for innovation.
  • SpaceX’s 2008 private rocket launch demonstrated that commercial companies could operate at lower costs and with greater flexibility.
  • "Somebody finally succeeded at it. And this unlocked all this latent energy for space all around the world. When people saw SpaceX had done it." — Ashley Vance (33:02)

The Profit Motive in Space

• Big Money in Low Earth Orbit:
  • "The most obvious place where there's lots of money right now to be had is in low earth orbit where most of the satellites fly...that number is going to go from 10,000 to 100,000 by the end of this decade." — Ashley Vance (35:18)
  • Opportunities: Communications (Starlink), scientific imaging (Planet Labs), and other data services.

Scale and Acceleration

• Exponential Growth: The number of satellites has increased from 2,000 to over 10,000 in a decade, projected to reach 100,000 soon. (35:18)
• Infrastructure Parallels: Building a “computing shell” around the Earth is likened to laying fiber optic cables for the Internet. (36:32)

Major Players

• SpaceX:
  • Dominates global launches and has revolutionized by perfecting reusable rockets, drastically lowering costs.
  • Now has a track record of the most consecutive successful launches and largest share of satellites. (38:17)
• Others:
  • Rocket Lab (New Zealand)—small satellite launches (39:02)
  • Planet Labs—earth imaging (40:19, 46:37)
  • Blue Origin (Jeff Bezos): Focused on space tourism, has struggled to match SpaceX's achievements. (41:00)
  • Many startups and nation-states now participate.

Democratization of Space Access

• Lower Costs: You can book a spot for a small payload for ~$250,000, down from $60M just six years ago. (42:19)
• Open Data: Companies like Planet Labs offer free or subscription-based access to global satellite imagery, enabling diverse applications from climate monitoring to military analysis. (48:09)

Regulatory and Environmental Concerns

• Space Congestion: The “Kessler syndrome”—cascading debris from collisions—is a looming risk as thousands of objects crowd orbit. (43:23)
• Lack of Regulation: Unlike airspace, there’s no global “FAA” for space traffic; startups are tracking space debris more effectively than governments. Regulatory bodies are not keeping pace with rapid commercial expansion. (44:44)

The Changing Landscape

• From State Power to Commercial Dominance:
  • Nearly all new satellites in recent years are commercial, not governmental.
  • Countries like Russia are falling behind due to lack of commercial innovation.
  • "This balance of power that existed for decades where only a handful of slow moving governments really controlled space is over." — Ashley Vance (49:00)

Notable Quotes

• “You can literally enter your credit card information now on a website and [have something launched into space]. The cheapest to get something in space is about $250,000.” — Ashley Vance (42:19)
• “We're building a very similar thing right around us in space [to the Internet on Earth]… It’s where hundreds of billions of dollars to start building this infrastructure is.” — Ashley Vance (36:32)
• “We have never lived in this world where you have to hundred thousand objects in space...there’s this thing called the Kessler syndrome.” — Ashley Vance (43:23)

Key Segment Timestamps

• [30:32] Introduction to Ashley Vance and context for private space industry
• [35:18] Where today’s space money is—low earth orbit and satellites
• [37:42] SpaceX’s innovation: reusable rockets
• [39:02] Who else is building and launching rockets?
• [41:12] Why “rich boys” started the space business—now costs are coming down
• [43:23] Space traffic and debris risks (“Kessler Syndrome”)
• [46:37] Planet Labs and open earth microscopy
• [49:00] Commercialization has eclipsed government control

Memorable Moments

• [13:31] Mike's realization that "lying can be a real winning strategy"—but research shows it's only for a small subset of people.
• [24:39] Drew Curtis's story about choosing honesty with his son about a dead pet fish, only to find the feared negative emotional impact never materialized.
• [35:18] Ashley Vance's striking projection: "That [satellite] number is going to go from 10,000 to 100,000 by the end of this decade."
• [42:19] The idea that virtually anyone, not just governments or billionaires, can now access space—if they can afford it.

Additional "Something You Should Know" Quick Facts

Predicting Weather With Coffee ([50:44])

• If the bubbles in your coffee move quickly to the rim, expect good weather (high pressure); if they stay in the center, rain may be coming (low pressure).

Takeaways for Listeners

• Lying is a universal human behavior, often rationalized in ourselves but condemned in others. Even small lies can corrode trust in relationships.
• Space is no longer the domain of governments alone. Commercial players are rapidly building a new world above our heads—one with both opportunity and risk.
• Access to technology and data formerly reserved for states is now democratized, sometimes even open to public use.
• Rapid, mostly unregulated change in space activity brings innovation, possibility, but also substantial new challenges for safety and oversight.

Guests' Books

• Drew Curtis, “Big Liars”
• Ashley Vance, “When the Heavens Went on Sale”

(Summary prepared to provide comprehensive insight for those who haven’t listened to the episode.)