Podcast Summary: "The Real Story of Thanksgiving"

Podcast: Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guest: Peter Mancall, Professor of History and Anthropology, University of Southern California
Release Date: November 12, 2025

Episode Overview

In this special holiday bonus episode, host Mike Carruthers explores the real origins and evolving meaning of Thanksgiving with historian Peter Mancall. The episode dispels common myths about the “first Thanksgiving,” traces how the holiday has changed over centuries, and examines the historical context and motivations behind the earliest celebrations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origins and Myths of Thanksgiving

• Popular Story vs. Reality

  • The elementary school version of Thanksgiving—Pilgrims and Native Americans feasting in harmony—is overly simplified and not entirely accurate. The truth, as discussed, is more nuanced and less idyllic.
  • [02:20] Mike: “You’re going to learn how some of the common beliefs about the first Thanksgiving just aren’t true.”

• The First Thanksgiving (1621)

  • Occurred after the Pilgrims’ first successful harvest, following a brutal winter in which half the settlers died from scurvy and malnutrition.
  • Native Americans present were primarily Wampanoags led by Massasoit.
  • The event lasted about three days, featuring feasting, sharing food (notably corn, venison, and fowl, with turkey as a presumption), and trading.
  • [05:41] Peter Mancall: "We know from some of the documents that in the autumn of 1621 the Pilgrims and their nearby native neighbors, Wampanoags, got together for an autumn celebration that ... lasted about three days."

• Relationship Between Pilgrims and Wampanoags

  • Initially cautious, pragmatic, and transactional rather than deeply suspicious or overly friendly.
  • Early interactions centered on trade and mutual benefit, with both sides seeing an opportunity rather than immediate danger or friendship.
  • [08:37] Peter Mancall: “It seems more a moment of sort of, hey, what can you do for me? ... It's in this middle ground.”

What Was (and Wasn’t) on the Table—and Who Hosted?

• Menu Myths

  • The “traditional” turkey may not have been central; venison and fowl (possibly wildfowl) were documented, as well as corn.
  • [11:47] Peter Mancall: “During those three days we feasted on venison and fowl as well as corn. And we presumed that that fowl was turkey. And that's why turkey gets integrated into ... the myth of the earliest Thanksgiving.”

• Host vs. Guest

  • The Pilgrims were the hosts, inviting their Wampanoag neighbors to join their harvest feast.
  • The documentary record is fragmentary, mostly drawn from a singular letter and later writings.

The Evolving Meaning and Frequency of Thanksgiving

• Not an Annual Tradition

  • Contrary to modern celebrations, there were no regular or annual Thanksgivings in the early colonial period.
  • Major “thanksgivings” (days of thanks) were irregular and typically tied to religious gratitude for specific events, not harvests.
  • [16:26] Peter Mancall: “They don't have regular Thanksgivings ... the idea of an annual holiday wasn't really the way they thought about things.”

• Thanksgiving Through American History

  • Revolutionary War: Days of thanksgiving were declared to mark survival or victory, with no reference to the Pilgrims or a harvest.
    • [20:23] Peter Mancall: “It's not linked to a harvest celebration. ... It's really, we have endured this terrible moment. ... Let us give thanks to God.”
  • Civil War: Lincoln established the national holiday in 1863 for unity and solace amid unprecedented national trauma—again, not referencing the Pilgrims as a central narrative.
    • [21:11] Peter Mancall: “It has nothing really to do in any obvious sense with what happened in early colonial New England.”
  • Modern Thanksgiving: Today’s holiday is rooted in 19th-century efforts to create unity and national identity, with the “Pilgrims and Indians” story becoming the dominant, romanticized myth.

• Changing Dates

  • Under Lincoln, Thanksgiving was set for the last Thursday of November. FDR later moved it to the fourth Thursday in 1939, responding to commercial interests (to extend the holiday shopping season).
  • The current date was codified by Congress in 1941.
  • [02:20] Mike: "There was a lot of controversy about it. Many people thought he was just bowing to pressure from retailers, which I guess he was."

Why Thanksgiving Endures and How Myths Persist

• Historical Fuzziness and the Value of Myth
  • Americans continue to celebrate the holiday as a time of unity and gratitude, often ignoring the messy or tragic parts of early colonial history.
  • [24:21] Peter Mancall: "In the modern telling of Thanksgiving, a lot of Americans would rather think about the comforting myth of, wait, we all could get along. ... We want to go back to a simple ... ur text of the American experience, and we romanticize that."

Notable Quotes

• Peter Mancall on the pragmatic relationship:
  "That initial moment, you know, 1620, 1621, is not a moment of enormous suspicion. It seems more a moment of, hey, what can you do for me?" ([08:37])

• On the non-annual tradition:
  "They don't have regular Thanksgivings. ... In 1621, we have this meal. In 1623 ... another meal ... [but] Thanksgiving as a holiday doesn't really begin ... until during the Revolutionary War..." ([16:26])

• On myth vs. reality:
  "It's an interesting question why we celebrate holidays in the ways that we do. ... Holidays change over time." ([22:59])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:20] - Introduction to Thanksgiving myths and surprising facts
• [05:41] - What really happened at the first Thanksgiving
• [08:37] - The nature of Pilgrim-Wampanoag relations
• [11:47] - Who hosted, what was eaten, and documentary sources
• [16:26] - Lack of annual tradition; religious “days of thanksgiving”
• [20:23] - Revolutionary War origins of the national holiday
• [21:11] - Civil War recontextualization and Lincoln’s proclamation
• [22:59] - Timeline recap and how holiday meanings shift

Memorable Moments

• The Frozen Dinner Origin:
  Thanksgiving led to the invention and boom of the frozen “TV dinner” industry after Swanson needed to use up 260 tons of leftover turkey in 1953. ([02:20])

• Surprising Stat:
  68% of Americans dislike at least some traditional Thanksgiving dishes, but most still eat them out of tradition. Pork is the second most popular main course after turkey. ([25:56])

Language and Tone

• The discussion is conversational, myth-busting, and educational without being heavy-handed.
• Mike injects curiosity and concise framing, while Peter provides scholarly yet accessible historical context.

Summary Takeaway

Thanksgiving as celebrated today owes more to 19th-century efforts to forge a national identity than to a singular “feast” in 1621. The real first Thanksgiving was a fraught, pragmatic exchange between struggling colonists and Native Americans, not the harmonious, multicultural dinner we imagine. The holiday evolved to fit new moments of national challenge—most notably the Civil War—before commercial interests and collective nostalgia cemented its modern form.

Recommended for:
Anyone curious about American history, the origins of cultural myths, or the real stories behind beloved traditions.