The Science Behind Why We Buy & How to Make Bold Choices - SYSK Choice

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Science Behind Why We Buy & How to Make Bold Choices"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Something You Should Know
• Host: Mike Carruthers | OmniCast Media
• Episode: The Science Behind Why We Buy & How to Make Bold Choices
• Release Date: January 4, 2025

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I. Introduction

In this episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers delves into the intricate mechanisms that influence our purchasing decisions and explores the psychology behind making bold choices. The episode features insightful discussions with marketing expert Phil Barden and motivational speaker Jennifer Cohen, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of consumer behavior and personal empowerment.

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II. Hand Drying vs. Paper Towels

Key Discussion Points:

• Effectiveness in Hygiene: Mike Carruthers opens the episode by addressing a common question: Is it better to dry hands with paper towels or air dryers in public restrooms?

• Mayo Clinic Study: A study by the Mayo Clinic indicates that paper towels are more effective at fighting bacteria compared to air dryers. The friction from paper towels helps dislodge microorganisms, enhancing hand hygiene.

• Expert Insight: Mike emphasizes that while antibacterial soap provides some protection, the drying method significantly impacts overall cleanliness.

Notable Quote:

"Friction is the most important element of the process. Drying with paper is an important precaution to take, especially where hygiene is particularly important."
— Mike Carruthers [00:46]

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III. Interview with Phil Barden: Understanding Consumer Behavior

Guest: Phil Barden, Marketing Expert and Author of Decoded: The Science Behind Why We Buy

Key Discussion Points:

1. Decline in Brand Loyalty:

   • Changing Landscape: Phil discusses how brand loyalty has diminished in recent years due to the abundance of substitutes. Consumers now rely more on a "repertoire" of brands that fulfill their needs rather than sticking to a single favorite.
   • Quote:
     "People are quite happy to swap out one brand for another as long as it meets this job to be done."
     — Phil Barden [05:33]

2. Retailer Tactics to Influence Purchases:

   • Urgency Triggers: Techniques like "only two left in stock" or "five people are viewing this now" create a sense of urgency, tapping into evolutionary instincts to secure scarce resources.
   • Priming: Background elements such as music or scents can subconsciously influence purchasing decisions without coercing consumers.
   • Quote:
     "These tactics can tip us into a purchase that we might not otherwise have made if we weren't under that time pressure."
     — Phil Barden [06:34]

3. Psychological Effects on Buying:

   • Fluency Effect: Repeated exposure to a stimulus (e.g., the word "Mars" during NASA's Mars missions) increases familiarity and likability, leading to higher sales of related products.
   • Framing Effect: The way information is presented (e.g., "90% fat-free" vs. "10% fat") can significantly alter consumer perception and willingness to pay.
   • Anchoring Effect: Presenting a high-priced option establishes a reference point, making mid-priced choices appear more reasonable.

4. Contextual Influences:

   • Situational Factors: Decisions vary based on context such as location, company, time of day, and ambient conditions.
   • Quote:
     "Our choices will change depending on not only where we are, but who we're with, the time of day, what we're doing."
     — Phil Barden [25:14]

Notable Quotes:

"The way information is presented affects our perception of things. People will tell you that '90% fat-free' meat is healthier than '10% fat' meat, even though they're identical."
— Phil Barden [15:44]

"Anchoring is the principle by which the first bit of information we see acts as a reference point for all that follows."
— Phil Barden [24:18]

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IV. Interview with Jennifer Cohen: Embracing Boldness

Guest: Jennifer Cohen, Host of Habits and Hustle, TED Talk Speaker, and Author of Bigger, Better, Bolder: Live the Life You Want, Not the Life You Get

Key Discussion Points:

1. Overcoming Fear and Self-Doubt:

   • Human Nature: Jennifer acknowledges that fear of failure and self-doubt are natural but emphasizes the importance of acting despite these feelings.
   • Incremental Boldness: Starting with small bold actions can build confidence and resilience over time.
   • Quote:
     "Boldness is a muscle. You have to exercise it consistently to build strength and maintain it."
     — Jennifer Cohen [37:53]

2. Calculated Risks vs. Reckless Risks:

   • Smart Boldness: Jennifer differentiates between taking calculated risks that align with personal goals and being unnecessarily risky.
   • Examples of Boldness: Simple actions like negotiating a better deal with service providers or asking for what you want in everyday scenarios can cultivate boldness.

3. Building Confidence Through Action:

   • Behavioral Practice: Regularly engaging in bold actions reshapes neural pathways, fostering a more confident and courageous mindset.
   • Quote:
     "You can't just be bold one time and think you're bold. It's about consistency and practice."
     — Jennifer Cohen [37:53]

4. Avoiding Regret by Taking Action:

   • Long-Term Satisfaction: Jennifer highlights that regret over inaction is more debilitating than temporary rejection, urging listeners to prioritize action to unlock their potential.
   • Quote:
     "Regret is way worse than rejection. You get over rejection, but the what-ifs linger forever."
     — Jennifer Cohen [39:52]

5. Interconnectedness of Boldness, Courage, and Confidence:

   • Holistic Approach: Jennifer explains that boldness is intertwined with courage and confidence, all of which can be developed through intentional practice and mindset shifts.
   • Neuroplasticity: Repeated bold actions can rewire the brain to support a more confident and courageous self.

Notable Quotes:

"The only way to get desensitized and immune to failure is by doing something over and over again."
— Jennifer Cohen [37:53]

"You have to take agency and self-actualize to be whatever you really want to be. It starts with taking ownership of your life."
— Jennifer Cohen [30:57]

"Confidence is gained through recognizing and celebrating your accomplishments, no matter how small."
— Jennifer Cohen [41:00]

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V. Conclusion: Integrating Understanding and Action

The episode seamlessly weaves together the intricacies of consumer behavior with personal development strategies. Phil Barden's insights into why we buy reveal the subconscious factors driving everyday decisions, while Jennifer Cohen's discussion on boldness empowers listeners to take charge of their lives through courageous actions. Together, these conversations provide a holistic view of how understanding internal and external influences can lead to more informed choices and a more fulfilled life.

Final Takeaways:

• Consumer Awareness: Recognizing the psychological tactics used in marketing can help consumers make more deliberate and informed purchasing decisions.
• Personal Empowerment: Developing boldness through consistent practice can lead to significant personal and professional growth, minimizing future regrets.

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Resources Mentioned:

• Decoded: The Science Behind Why We Buy by Phil Barden
• Bigger, Better, Bolder: Live the Life You Want, Not the Life You Get by Jennifer Cohen

Listeners are encouraged to explore these resources for a deeper understanding of the topics discussed.

Transcript

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[Mike Carruthers]

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[Mike Carruthers]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Jennifer Cohen]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know In a public bathroom, is it better to dry your hands with a paper towel or an air dryer? Then why you buy what you buy? There's a lot going on that determines what you purchase.

[Phil Barden]

Our choices will change depending on not only where we are, but who we're with. The time of day, are we indoors? Are we outdoors? What's the temperature? And as they change so our choices change.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, are you reluctant to complain in a restaurant even when things aren't going so well? And the power of being bold and asking for what you want more often.

[Jennifer Cohen]

You don't just act one time and think, okay, now I'm bold. I wasn't born this way, but I did notice when I actually got certain wins, it wasn't because I was the smartest or the prettiest. It was because I actually just asked the question.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Phil Barden]

Hi Phil, Hi Mike. It's great to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So let's start with brands. Because to some degree why we buy some things is because we're brand loyal. We like that brand. But I've heard that and read that in recent years. Brand loyalty is waning. People, with a few exceptions, people aren't so brand loyal as they used to be. Is that a fair statement?

[Phil Barden]

Yes, I think so. Nowadays there are far many more substitutes available. You do get some real die hard loyalists who will only drink one brand of cola, for example. But generally people shop from a repertoire and they're quite happy, depending on the price, depending on the convenience, where they are the context in which they find themselves. They're quite happy to swap out one brand for another as long as it it meets this job to be done. As long as they functionally perform and they also give tick a box in terms of the social, emotional and psychological level, then we're quite happy to buy from a repertoire.

[Mike Carruthers]

Are there some basic rules that sellers, retailers, whoever is trying to sell us something, are there things that they're doing that are trying to maneuver us in a particular direction? And maybe an example or two, if it's true, an example would help for sure.

[Phil Barden]

There are some tactics that everyone should watch out for, and I'll give you a couple of classic examples. When you're online and you're looking at a product and a little window pops up and says only two left in stock, or if you're looking at booking a flight or a hotel room and you see something that says five other people are looking at this room or this flight right now, it triggers a sense of urgency in us that goes right back through evolution, because our ancestors lived from famine to feast and they didn't know when the next supplies or particular resource would be available. So then the nudge was to get what you could when it was available. And when we see something that says that there's time pressure or that quantities are limited, we do feel this urge to click online or to buy in a store. And that's something we should watch out for, because often it can tip us into a purchase that we might not otherwise have made if we weren't under that time pressure or if we didn't feel that quantities were limited.

[Mike Carruthers]

I'm sure you don't know for sure the answer, but I bet you have an opinion when it says hurry, only two left. Are there really only two left?

[Phil Barden]

Well, that depends. Sometimes there are, but there have been cases that have been called out by the industry and advertising standards bodies where this is deliberately misleading. And in fact, if you're online and you cleared your browser, cleared your cache and your history and you go back into the same website, you might find that in fact there are seven left the next time you visit. So you really need to be careful with this sort of thing.

[Mike Carruthers]

I hear things like, there have been studies where they're trying to sell wine, and if they play French music, French wines sell more, and if they play Italian music, Italian wines sell more. That makes it sound like we're so swayable, we're so impressionable that we'll just kind of go with the, you know, it doesn't Sound like we're really being very critical in how we think about things.

[Phil Barden]

What you're talking about is an effect known as priming, and it's been around for decades. You think when you go into a supermarket and you smell freshly baked bread, that's a, that's another example of, of priming. It, it triggers your appetite. Now the fact is that you will not buy bread if you don't want it, right? Even though there's this lovely smell of warm baked goods coming at you. Similarly, if you hear French music or Italian music or whatever and you don't need to buy wine that day, then you're not going to. So it's not like the supermarkets are tricking you. It's not like they're making you do something that you don't want to do. When the studies you're talking about with the music played in the aisles where wine is sold did influence purchases, but it was people who were already going to buy wine. So yes, we can be swayed by this, but not tricked into doing something that we wouldn't otherwise have done.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that's good news because it almost seemed like the way that you hear these tactics tried that we're so. Well, and the grocery store is a good example of how we hear so much about the psychology of the grocery store. You know, that the longer you stay and the more they can make you go to the back of the store, the more you'll buy. Like you're just like an idiot.

[Phil Barden]

You know, this idea that we're sort of walking around like zombies ready to be brainwashed couldn't be further from the truth.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Haven't you ever bought something where you didn't really need it, you didn't want to take it back, you could have lived without it, but you bought it anyway because it looked kind of cool. And so here it is in your house and it really wasn't necessary.

[Phil Barden]

I can't honestly say that I have. No.

[Jennifer Cohen]

Really?

[Phil Barden]

Yeah, yeah, really? No, I have. I've been triggered into buying stuff, but simply because I've bumped into it in the store. And that happens with a lot of purchases. You know, when, whenever we make a purchase decision, it's either a memory based decision. You know, I, I might write a physical shopping list or just have a mental shopping list of things that I know that I need and that constitutes my reason for going shopping. But when I'm in the store, then I will be stimulated by other things in the store. And that's you know that's the same whether it's a department store or grocery store or wherever. And simply the fact that I have seen things can trigger a purchase decision. But I go back to what I said before. It's not something, I'm not being made to buy something against my will.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what are some of the other things that maybe we're not aware of that affect our decision making? And by that I mean things like, I don't know, music or lighting or any of those kind of things that push us one way or the other or help us nudge us to make a decision.

[Phil Barden]

There are some quite strange effects that have been studied in psychology. A great example was in 1997 when NASA started the Pathfinder series of space exploration to the planet Mars. I can remember it well seeing it on tv. But whilst that was going on, the Mars confectionary company in the US reported an abnormal jump in sales. And they said, it's really weird because we're not doing any extra promotion, we're not doing any extra advertising, and yet sales of Mars are rising. And the psychologists came in and explained this. They said this is an effect known as fluency. And fluency in the brain is a cognitive process that basically says once we have been exposed to what one particular stimulus, the next time we see that stimulus, it's processed more easily. And the fact that it's processed more easily makes it become more familiar to us. And as a result of familiarity, we like it better. So what was happening was that people in the US were being exposed to the word Mars on a daily basis. It was in all the news reports on all the, all the TV channels, this, Mars, Mars, Mars, Mars, thanks to the NASA program. And when they went shopping and saw a Mars bar, that this fluency triggered a purchase simply because it was easier for them to process in the brain. And the same thing explains why sales of orange colored items rise at Halloween. Which just sounds crazy, doesn't it? And it's because orange is such a salient color at Halloween, because of pumpkins, of course, that sales of quite unrelated orange items like soda drinks, orange flavored soda drinks, go up at the same time because the color orange is, is present. So there, there are some weird things. And, and as I said, this is not, this is not forcing people or making people do things against their will. You know, people will buy Amar's chocolate bar quite happily. It just so happened that the process was made easier because the word Mars was so salient in the media.

[Mike Carruthers]

That is really weird.

[Phil Barden]

It is a strange One another. Another interesting example for you is known as the framing effect, which basically says that the way information is presented affects our perception of things. So if you give people some ground beef and you label it as 90% fat free, and then you show people the identical ground beef but label it as 10% fat, so objectively and rationally they're identical. Right. 10% fat is exactly the same as 90% fat free. But people will tell you that the 90% fat free meat is better quality, it's healthier, and they're willing to pay more for it as well.

[Mike Carruthers]

We talked earlier about music in relation to selling wine. How does music affect our brain in terms of what we buy or don't buy or stay in the store or get out of the store, that kind of thing?

[Phil Barden]

Well, music connect strongly in the brain in terms of triggering memories. So very often in our formative years, particularly teenage years, music can transport us back to a time and a place. So it can be very, very evocative. That's one effect that music can have. The other effect is that the rhythm and the tempo of the music can change our mood. So classical music will make us feel a certain way, you know, feel more calm. Well, depending on the, on the actual music, of course. But you know, classical lullaby is soothing, it's calming. It's what we. What helped calm us and send us to sleep as a child. Whereas classical music, that is a march with its particular tempo and rhythm will tend to make us feel a bit more excited and energized and that that's the case. It's not. We're not just talking about shopping here. That's the case in any time we're exposed to music. You can think about the music in a movie soundtrack that, that is enormously important in evoking moods and helping us to feel as well as see what's going on on the screen.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're exploring what makes you buy the things you buy. And we're doing that with Phil Barden. He is a marketing expert and author of the book Decoded the Science behind why We Buy. So let me ask you, is 2025 going to be the year you finally launch that business idea you've been thinking about? If what's stopping you is you don't know how to make it happen? Well, Shopify is how you're going to make it happen. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand, open your business and get your first sale. You can get your store up and running easily with thousands of customizable templates. You don't need to know coding or design. All you have to do is drag and drop. And their powerful social media tools let you connect all your social media channels and create shoppable posts that help you sell everywhere people are scrolling. Shopify helps with all the details, the things that maybe have been holding you back, like shipping and taxes and payments. It's all on one single dashboard, allowing you to focus on growing your business. If you don't do it now, you're going to look back one day and wonder what if you had? And regret sucks. I mean, you don't want to kick yourself when you hear this message again a year from now. With Shopify, your first sale is closer than you think. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase go to shopify.comsysk to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.comSYSK A new year means new opportunities.

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[Mike Carruthers]

So Phil, when someone decides to buy whatever it is, you know, a can of beans or a television set or a bottle of wine, when it gets right down to it, there's usually multiple choices. There's different several different brands of beans or television sets, and they're all pretty much the same price how does the brain figure out.

[Phil Barden]

Okay, that one, that's a really good question. And this has been studied by particularly neuroscientists who have observed what activity goes on in the brain when people make a purchase decision. And it is the same process, irrespective of what we're buying, whether it's a, a TV set or a candy bar or an automobile or whatever it might be, the same process unfolds in the brain. And what happens first is that we perceive a so called reward. There's a part of the brain which the scientists nickname the reward center, which helps us to make decisions. And it does that based on the associations that we have built with different offerings in the past. And those associations will be built through many different things. So the advertising that we have seen, our own personal experience with a brand, what other people say or tell us about the brand, what spokespeople or influencers there might be for the brand, how the brand looks and feels, the packaging it has, any other sensory qualities that it might have, the reputation that we've learned that the brand has, all of these form neural networks of associations that when we, when we come to be in a position where we want to make a purchase, let's take your, your example of the TV set. And if all the brands on, on offer are roughly about the same price, then we will tend to choose the brand whose rewards we have learned fit our job to be done best. I always remember a lovely conversation with a finance director of a car, an automobile company, and he said, look, my last purchase decision was entirely rational. I had a fixed budget and I worked out what model I could have and what engine size and what trim and specification I could have, and it fitted my budget. And that's an entirely logical, rational decision. And I said to him, yes, you're absolutely right, but why did you go through all of that process to arrive at the decision? And he said, oh, so I could have a BMW outside my house. So what he just displayed there was this mixture of the functional, rational stuff, but also the social, emotional, psychological side that actually having a BMW outside his house said something about him as a person and made him feel a certain way. And he chose BMW to do that rather than another automobile brand because of what he'd learned about BMW, what it stood for, what the associations were, and that's what was factored into his decision.

[Mike Carruthers]

There's something that I've noticed and I've heard people talk about on menus, restaurant menus, and it's the second most expensive bottle of Wine where people don't want to buy the most expensive, but they don't want to look too cheap, so they buy the second most expensive. Restaurants know that, and they mark that second bottle up quite a bit because they know people will go for the second most expensive bottle of wine. And I, I think I've fallen for that myself, but I'm not sure why.

[Phil Barden]

Well, this is something known as anchoring. And it. What it tells us is, and it's based on the fact that our perception is always relative, it's never absolute. So we don't really know the value of. Unless you're a real wine aficionado and an absolute expert, then how do you judge the value of a bottle of wine? And anchoring is the principle by which the first bit of information we see. So the most expensive bottle acts as an anchor for what follows. And generally we tend to pick a middle option.

[Mike Carruthers]

And lastly, something I find interesting about purchases that we make is how we sometimes buy something and look back and say, what was I thinking? Why in the world did I buy that?

[Phil Barden]

When I started in the field that I work in now, one of my colleagues who is a psychologist, said, human behavior is always the product of the person and the situation they're in. So that situation is contextual. And it's exactly why, for example, when you're on vacation and you drink a wine somewhere very warm, when you're relaxed, etc. And you come back home and you see that same wine on sale and you think, oh, I remember, that was fantastic, and I'll buy it. And you do, and you drink it at home. And it never tastes the same.

[Mike Carruthers]

It never tastes the same. It.

[Phil Barden]

No, it never tastes good. And the reason is because the context has changed. Our choices will change depending on not only where we are, but who we're with, the time of day, what we're doing, you know, is it a business meeting? Are we on vacation? Are we meeting some friends? Is it a formal occasion? These are all contextual factors. Are we indoors? Are we outdoors? What's the temperature? All of these things, what's the day of the week? All of these are contextual factors. And as they change, so our choices change. And we don't change as individuals. We're the same individual in all of those situations. But if you change the situation, then our choices can change.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, given the number of purchasing decisions we all make, it's really important to understand what goes on behind the scenes or in our brain to help us make those decisions. And when you understand that, I think it also helps you make better decisions. I've been talking with Phil Barden. He is a marketing expert and the name of his book is the Science behind why We Buy. And you will find a link to that book in the show notes. Hey, thanks Phil. Thanks for coming on.

[Phil Barden]

Thanks, Mike. It's been a real pleasure.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Mike Carruthers]

I'm sure you've heard the phrase fortune favors the bold, which implies that the more you get out there, be bold. Ask for what you want, the more successful you will be in whatever it is you hope to do. And if that's true, what is it that stops so many of us from being bold, from speaking up, going after what we want? Why not be more bold? Well, someone who really understands and explains this concept so well is Jennifer Cohen. Jennifer has a brilliant TED Talk on this topic and she is host of a podcast called Habits and Hustle. She's also the author of a book called Bigger Better live the life you want, not the life you get. Hi Jennifer, thanks for being here on Something youg Should Know.

[Jennifer Cohen]

Thank you for having me. This is exciting.

[Mike Carruthers]

So it's the new Year. People are talking about new goals they want to achieve, things they want to get. Yet so many of us, when it comes time to speak up and ask for what we want, we're timid. We're not bold. We worry about getting rejected. What if we fail? I don't want to make waves. And so we don't go after what we say we want.

[Jennifer Cohen]

Absolutely. And therein lies the problem, right? Because we are scared of failure and we have so much self doubt. It's human nature, right? It's human nature to have these feelings, but it's about acting. Even when. Even when you feel that way. Because the truth of the matter is something in motion stays in motion. Something stagnant stays stagnant. That's why there's also that saying when you're busy, when you want something done, give it to a busy person. Because inertia happens, momentum. So even if you have that self doubt, even if you fear that failure, still act. Because you can't just go from A to Z and just be like, well I just be bold. It doesn't work that way. But if you get good at asking for the little things in life you get, you can get better at asking for the big things in life. So you start with these small little bold moves that accumulate and compound over time. And I also believe that you need to become immune to failure. And the only way to get desensitized and immune to failure and rejection is by doing something over and over again. And that's why I have the 10% target. And the 10% target is based around making 10 attempts at anything you want most in life. And even if you don't get to that goal, even if you don't get to that goal, another opportunity will present itself that you didn't even know existed by just going through the process.

[Mike Carruthers]

So give me a concrete example of this idea in action.

[Jennifer Cohen]

So let's say you love sports and you want to work for a sports team. Then start working with that realm and make 10 attempts. You know, look at the people that are in your life, see who in your life is working for a sports team or you know, email someone, go on LinkedIn and see who's the manager or the director of a certain, of a certain division, right? But make these 10 attempts. So put the onus, the onus and ownership in your, of your life in your hands and have like, have some control over your destiny. And so this is what the message that I'm trying to really kind of get out to people is that you have to take agency and you can self actualize and be whatever you really want to be. But you need to make that first step. And the first step is always the hardest. But if you stay on path and put yourself in that situation to win, you'll be so surprised of what happens. Because the reality is most people don't even make one attempt. Almost nobody makes two attempts. So if you're somebody who makes 10 attempts just on pure volume or on just on pure, just numbers you're going to make, you're going to have a shot. And you have to have that idea in your head that why not me? Why not me? If it can happen to that person, why can't it happen to me, I.

[Mike Carruthers]

Think a lot of people think that being bold or not being bold is a character trait, that there are those people who are bold. And if you don't feel that's you, that a lot of this seems like this doesn't apply to me because I'm not that person.

[Jennifer Cohen]

And that's true. That's. A lot of people do feel that way. They feel that you need to be born bold. And if you're not born bold, then, you know, I'm out of luck. And the reality is that we have. We can actually become more bold because boldness is a skill like anything else.

[Mike Carruthers]

I wonder why we're not bold. Or maybe we start off bold, but we get shot down enough, we think, well, that didn't feel very good, so maybe I'm not going to be so bold the next time.

[Jennifer Cohen]

That's true. That happens all the time. And that's why a lot of times, naivety is a strength, right? Because the less we know, the more bold that we can be. Because remember when. Remember when you were a kid, you didn't know any better, so you just did. You acted, you moved, you did things, and then you kind of learn from things that happen to you. Correct. And then what happens? As we get older, we get much more timid in attempting or making that bold move because we have too much experience, we're too seasoned. So if we can go back to that idea and that ideology of naivete when you actually did a lot of things when you didn't know better, that's when things actually happen. Right.

[Mike Carruthers]

Sometimes, though, I think. I guess I can speak for myself, that when you decide not to do something bold, it's because something's telling you not to. And. And maybe that voice that's telling you not to is right. Maybe this isn't a good idea. And how do you determine whether it's worth taking the risk or whether maybe it really isn't a good idea?

[Jennifer Cohen]

That's a good question. And the truth is, you said the word right there in the question, which was risk. There's a difference between being bold and taking a risk. Bold and risk are different. When I think about boldness, I think about it being a calculated risk, knowing, doing something that's safe, that you know that you're. That I'm not telling. My message in being bold is not. If you have a family of four, don't quit your job and just go for the gusto like that. I'm saying be calculated in what your attempt is. And that, to me, is the main distinction between being risk, just being risky for the sake of risky, and being bold for the life that you want. Because it's a lot of times it doesn't even have to be these big vast things that you're being bold for. It could be small things also, right? It could be things like, you know, maybe calling your credit card company or your cell service provider and seeing if there's a better deal on the table than what you're doing. It's about going to a restaurant and maybe sometimes asking for the sauce on the side. You know, it's about asking for what you want in lots of different scenarios and a lot of different areas. It's not about just taking these big bold risks that are dangerous. It's about just tailoring your life in a way that you're taking the onus and ownership on what you are given versus just having and taking what's good enough.

[Mike Carruthers]

When I think of bold, I think not only of asking for what you want, but it's also in how you ask. I don't think of somebody being bold in a very meek sort of way. Those two terms don't seem to go together very well.

[Jennifer Cohen]

That's very true. You're right. And so there's a lot of, there's a, there's a connotation a lot of times with boldness that it can be aggressive or too assertive. But in life it's not so much what you say, it's how you say it. You can be bold, but also be kind and nice and respectful. Right? And so there's that element that it's extremely important. You could ask for whatever it is you want in life if you do it in a nice way. And the truth of the matter is people don't balk at that. People balk when you're rude and dismissive and disrespectful. And so I think there's a lot of distinction and, and ways that you could be bold in a very positive, kind, nice way. And so I talk about self agency, right? Like if you believe you can, you can and you will. If you believe you can't, you won't, and therefore you will not. So it's literally about, number one, changing these negative ideologies in our heads and reframing the way we see things. It's about thinking what is the worst that can happen? Like even just that one, that one sentence or that one reframe of, well, I'm not going to be any worse off today than I was yesterday if it doesn't go my way. So what's the worst that can happen? And if you have that type of affirmation right, then you act in such.

[Mike Carruthers]

So how do you be bold if you don't feel bold? If you do feel timid inside, how do you get this, this boldness that you're talking about?

[Jennifer Cohen]

Boldness is a muscle, right? Like if you want to be strong, you don't go to the gym once and think you're going to be strong and fit, right? You have to go consistently over and over and over again. And then eventually you get to be stronger and stronger and then you need to maintain that strength. It's the same thing with being bold. You don't just act one time and think, okay, now I'm bold. You have to be consistent with the skill and practice of it. By doing these little things over and over again to strengthen your boldness muscle and to be and to become something, you got to change the neuroplasticity of how you see yourself. And the only way to do that is to act and to do and to practice consistently. I'm somebody that I wasn't born this way, but I did notice when things were working out for myself and when I actually got certain wins, it was because I had the courage to ask for something and go after something and create these opportunities. And it wasn't. It wasn't because I was the smartest or the prettiest or the most athletic. It was because I actually just asked the question. And I think we get in our own way the most, right? We are our own worst enemies and we don't even allow ourselves to, like I said, self actualize to where we want to be and can be. And the truth of the matter is, what's worse, Rejection or regret? To me, regret is way worse than rejection. You get over rejection, right? Like it may hurt and you may have to lick your wounds for a few hours, hours or a day or two, but the what ifs are much, much worse. And those live with you over and over and over again in your mind.

[Mike Carruthers]

Sometimes forever.

[Jennifer Cohen]

Forever. Exactly. And it's happened to me, you know, even me being bold now, I mean, I've, I've had a lot of things happen where I thought, yeah, now I practice, I'm bold. I wrote a book on bold. And you know, I still sometimes have self doubt and don't do something that I think and know I should because I get scared of the same thing that I'm saying. But because of that, not doing that regret, I remember that feeling and so when you remember that feeling of regret or what if that's a great motivator to not do it another time you.

[Mike Carruthers]

Use the word courage. And I always think of bold and courageous and confidence to be kind of part of all the same thing. Like, you can't have one without the others kind of thing. If you're going to be bold, you've got to have courage to be bold. And you've probably got to have a certain level of confidence to be bold. And a lot of people often feel they don't have those other two things.

[Jennifer Cohen]

I agree with you. They're all basically sisters and brothers to each other, right? And you know, confidence is, the best way to gain confidence is through recognizing your other accomplishments that you've had and really, really kind of recognizing them and celebrating them, right? The best way to, in my opinion, people ask me all the time about confidence, like, well, how do you even get the confidence to do this? Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, right? And there has to been some small wins in your life at some point, no matter small they were, but recognizing those and holding on to those. And the other thing is you can count yourself. You have to count yourself. Even if you kind of take a breath and say, okay, three, two, one, let's go. You know, even if it's being brave for 20 seconds, we can all do something for 20 seconds. You can do all these little things to kind of give you that like, burst of confidence just to kind of get, get through the door, right? And over time, like I said, your, your, your neuroplasticity starts to change. And the reality is being courageous, being confident, the way people get that is by acting, is by doing. And then seeing yourself doing those things and noticing these little wins and recognizing these little wins and taking these little, like, doing these little, like, brain tricks, like saying, okay, I'm not confident, but you know what? I can do it for 20, I can do this for 20 seconds. I can make this call, or I can say this one thing and it's going to be 20 seconds. What's the worst that can happen in those 20 seconds? I don't get it. Okay. And there's ways to psych yourself up into that until that actually becomes your new normal.

[Mike Carruthers]

I remember years ago, it dawned on me that because I, I would see people who, like, would get jobs, positions, opportunities that they clearly didn't seem qualified for, but they always seem they were like, good at getting the job, but not necessarily very good at doing it. And I used to think, like, how do they do that. And then it dawned on me, because they asked, they applied, they went for it, and they were good at doing that. They weren't necessarily good at the job, but everybody who's had a boss that you wonder, like, how did he ever get his job? Probably because he was bold enough to go ask.

[Jennifer Cohen]

1,000%. 1,000%. We all have those people in our lives. We have all had those people in the life. On my podcast, right Habits and hustle, all I do all day is talk to the most extraordinarily successful people on the planet, the biggest disruptors in the world. And the one thing, the one through line with all of these people that I've interviewed is boldness. It's not that they were the smartest. They weren't the. They weren't the smartest. In fact, a lot of them flunked out of college and some of them out of high school. They weren't, they weren't exceptional in anything. But what they had was perseverance, persistence, tenacity, and boldness. And that is why this is not just me, like riffing off, you know, or talking from a white to ivory tower. This is honestly not just. This is experience. People I've seen, this is backed research. It is all of those things. And, you know, I got a job with the Toronto Raptors when I was a, you know, the Toronto NBA team when I was 20 years old in like, I was like in a sales. A sales position where I had no prior sales experience. It was right after college. It was the most coveted job everyone wanted. Every, everybody there was like, were sports fanatics, sports fans, big basketball fans. And I got the job because I was, I was so persistent and I asked for it over and over again, that eventually they're like, you know what? This girl, let's give her a shot. I ended up being a really good salesperson, you know, shockingly enough. But the point is, it's like that is what happens. And by the way, just to kind of close the loop on that story, my boss was a total nitwit. He didn't belong in that position, but he was so bold that he got the job and he, by the way, he kept it. Because sometimes that is what it is. And, you know, I feel that if people really, really, like, took that to heart, it would really. It would really propel them to at least give themselves a shot. Right? The hardest part, the stop is. The stop is in the start a lot of times. So, you know, you just have to act.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, well, I think your. Your point about Rejection lasts a short time, but the regret of what if I had it last? Can last a lifetime. And I. I've always felt that and felt that, you know, I don't want to get to the end of my life and wonder, what if? Gee, what if I had done that? What if I'd done that? And although we all have some of those, we try to keep those to a minimum, I think, because then you spend a lot of time wondering and what good does that do?

[Jennifer Cohen]

You also wasted potential at the end of your life. That's the worst feeling, that you had all this potential and you had all this possibility and you didn't do anything with it, or you didn't try to do anything with it, right? You had this potential in you to at least, like, everyone can ask a question, everyone can try, right? It doesn't take talent to do those things, but you can always try and put yourself in a position to win, but you have to create and make those opportunities. You got to put yourself in a place that. That can actually potentially happen. And, you know, another sister, we talked about confidence and we talked about courage, but we didn't talk about curiosity. And curiosity, to me is the other brother and sister, right? Because if you are curious, that's where you can really find a lot. That's a. That to me is a gateway to connection and, you know, communication and where you find a lot of things, a lot of information that you don't know. And if you can harness and ask questions in a very authentic way, be curious in an authentic way, there's a way that that in itself opens up the gateway for so many opportunities to be bold in.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, one of the things you said that really rings true for me because I've done things in my life that were pretty bold and didn't work out and maybe felt a little foolish for a while, but not for very long. But there are other things that I didn't do, didn't go after, wished I had, and I still think about them and wish I didn't. So I really like the message of being bold. Jennifer Cohen has been my guest. She is the host of the podcast called Habits and Hustle. She has a great TED Talk on being bold. And she's author of a book called Bigger, Better, Bolder, Live the life you want, not the life you get. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Jennifer. This was a lot of fun.

[Jennifer Cohen]

Thanks, Mike. This has been so fun. Thanks for having me on your podcast.

[Mike Carruthers]

Do you ever lie when the waiter or waitress comes over to your table and says, so how is everything? And you say it's fine even when it isn't fine. Well, a lot of people do that and they end up paying for it. Literally. People who lie typically go to great lengths to convince others of their honesty, whether they realize it or not. So if you report that your meal is great when really it's not so great, you'll probably tip generously so that your tip matches what you said. After all, you said the meal was great. You don't want to look like a cheapskate, so you leave a nice tip. Researchers put this theory to the test and found that the majority of patrons would rather say everything's fine and tip accordingly than to complain, citing that it's just it's more trouble to speak up and complain rather than just say everything's fine. On the flip side, those people who did voice their displeasure felt justified leaving a smaller tip if the problem was not resolved. And that is something you should know. Thank you for listening and showing your support for this podcast over the last several years. And here's to a great new year for you. I'm micahruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Jennifer Cohen]

Do you love Disney? Do you love top 10 lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the magical Millennial.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And I'm the dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and.

[Jennifer Cohen]

Family friendly show, we count down our.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover on our show. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games and fun facts you didn't know you needed.

[Jennifer Cohen]

I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle what insect song is typically higher pitched in hotter temperatures and lower pitched and cooler temperatures.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You got this. No, I didn't believe that about a witch coming true. Well, I didn't either. Of course, I'm just Cicada.

[Mike Carruthers]

I cried.

[Jennifer Cohen]

I'm so sorry you win that one.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey.

[Jennifer Cohen]

Hey.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Are you ready for some real talk and some fantastic laughs? Join me, Megan Rinks and me, Melissa D Montz, for Don't Blame me, But Am I Wrong? We're serving up four hilarious shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. And don't blame me. We dive deep into listeners questions, offering advice that's funny relatable and real. Whether you're dealing with relationship drama or you just need a friend's perspective, we've got you. Then switch gears with But Am I Wrong? Which is for listeners who didn't take our advice and want to know if they are the villains in the situation. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events and present situations that we might even be wrong in our lives. Spoiler alert. We are actually, quite literally never wrong. But wait, there's more. Check out See youe Next Tuesday, where we reveal the juicy results from our listener polls from But Am I Wrong? And Don't Miss Fisting Friday, where we catch up chat about pop culture, TV and movies. It's the perfect way to kick off your weekend. So if you're looking for a podcast that feels like a chat with your besties, listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday.