Elizabeth Greenwood (7:55)

Hi Mike, thanks so much for having me.

Mike Carruthers (7:58)

So let me start by saying that I use my intuition. I get gut feelings, but I'm also suspicious of them. I worry sometimes that intuition might also just be a knee jerk reaction or a shortcut to a decision that really should take more thought just by saying, well, it was a gut feeling and I get it. I get that we all have gut reactions to things. And I think of it more as your collective wisdom telling you something more than anything else.

Elizabeth Greenwood (8:31)

Well Mike, I hear ya. I don't think you're alone in that feeling toward intuition. Of what even are we talking about when we talk about intuition? Is it just, just this out there woo woo thing. So I hear you there for sure. I spent several years interviewing experts of all stripes, ranging from neuroscientists to gastroenterologists to data scientists to people on, you know, more. The other end of the spectrum, intuitive practitioners such as Reiki healers, et cetera. It goes on and on. But I think that the most useful definition I came across comes from neuroscience, and that is that intuition is pattern recognition. That happens incredibly quickly, and it's based on prior experience and it shows up in biofeedback in your body. And this is an adaptive trait, and we all have it. So what does that mean? It means you walk into a room and you get some kind of vibe from that room. Maybe you feel comfortable, at ease, and your body kind of exhales, sighs, a little breath of relief. Or you walk into that room and your throat constricts and you feel uncomfortable. Maybe you don't even notice your throat constricting, but there's something happening in your body giving you a signal based on prior experience. So it's as simple as that. It's pattern recognition that happens incredibly quickly.

Mike Carruthers (10:09)

The idea of intuition, though most people have, is not what you just said. It's some sort of mystical, magical women's intuition, or my intuition told me to do this thing and the car didn't hit me. It's more magical than that.

Elizabeth Greenwood (10:27)

That's right. And intuition can feel magical. And that's because intuition is knowledge that is not always linear. It's not always, I can't say how I got from A to B. And that can make you doubt it, that can make it feel mystical. Because intuition is really this very complex ensemble of neurological functions such as memory activation, all of these things working in tandem to come up with, getting, quote, an intuition, a gut feeling. It's also a very embodied experience, and that's why we hear it called a gut feeling. So sometimes an intuition will come to you in a physically embodied way. And, you know, in our culture, we've really separated the brain from the body. So when we get something that feels like our body knowing something, we do have a tendency to distrust that or lump it in as something that is irrational, when really we store so much of our memories and emotions in our bodies. So it's not that this is irrational, it's just another form of rationality. And it's always based on past experiences. This isn't based on nothing. Sometimes an intuition can come out of the blue and feel almost mystical, but it's always based on prior experience. Intuition in that way is everything that's ever happened to you.

Mike Carruthers (12:01)

So why not just call it collective wisdom? Why give it a name like intuition, which adds that magical thing to it?

Elizabeth Greenwood (12:10)

You'd have to ask neuroscience and linguists that question. I can't really answer that. But I will say that there are neuroscientists and people working in the sciences that do study intuition. They don't have a different name for it. This is just what we've called it. And I totally hear you that this is, does feel like something that is a collective wisdom. But I think intuition also is very personal for people. It's knowing without knowing why. And the ways in which people know can be very different from person to person. Some people are more verbal, some people are more somatic, embodied. But it is that knowing without knowing why and being able to trace point A to point B. But this is a highly adaptive trait. This is something that evolutionary psychologists look at and I think at its most essential, it is a kind of protective instinct of toward or away. When you place a paramecium in a petri dish and put sugar in it, the paramecium will swim toward the sugar. It will swim away from an electric shock. And that at its most essential is a form of intuition.

Mike Carruthers (13:30)

Can you test for it? Can you and I take a test, the same test, and see which of us has more or better intuition?

Elizabeth Greenwood (13:37)

Well, there are several metrics that scientists use to study intuition, and the most famous among them is called the Iowa Gambling Task. And this was developed in the 1990s by the neuroscientist Antonio Damasio. So the Iowa Gambling Task is this. There are two decks of cards. One deck pays winnings when you select from that deck and the other deck and the other set of cards deduct winnings. And this is they, you know, really mix it up and make it in this very complicated system where there is a system, but it's really hard to figure out. Meanwhile, scientists are monitoring the participants biofeedback. And what they notice is that people running the experiment, they are recording signals from participants bodies that measure when people are considering the bad choices, the cards that deduct winnings versus the good choices. And what they find is that people are often completely unaware of those signals. But in the end, they learn to make the good choices based on this low level biofeedback. And they really can't tell you why. They'll just say, oh, well, this card seemed like the right card to choose. They might feel a sense of kind of being Repelled by the quote unquote bad cards. So the people who are more interoceptive, more aware of these very subtle bodily cues, they are drawn to the profitable decks and they stay away from the low paying decks. So that's just one example of a test that people run to measure intuition.

Mike Carruthers (15:21)

Well, that's really interesting because there's something to that, that you're somehow intuitively going from one deck and not the other deck. But people will often say, since we're in kind of the card game gambling mode here, you know, I went with red because my intuition told me to. Yeah, maybe. But gambling, just random gambling like that doesn't seem intuitive. It seems like luck.

Elizabeth Greenwood (15:50)

I think that's right. And I think that what studies have shown also is that this really comes from Daniel Kahneman's research in thinking fast and slow. But it takes back to even Benjamin Franklin writing about this phenomenon in his autobiography. Is that we like to tell ourselves this story, that we are rational beings and we've made decisions based on all the data and evaluating things with a cool head. But more often than not, we make decisions intuitively. We make decisions based on something that is emotional or that we can't even put words to. And then we will go back and post hoc reasons for why that makes sense rationally. So I think it cuts both ways.

Mike Carruthers (16:37)

Right there is that let's go back and rationalize or figure it out. But people will go, they'll say, you know, I went to that liquor store to buy the lotto ticket and that's why I won. Well, a lot of other people went to that other liquor store because their intuition told them to and they lost. That's the way people do that go back and rationalize thing that, you know, the reason I won the lotto is cause my intuition told me to go to that store. But you don't hear the other people saying, yeah, my intuition told me to go to the other store and I didn't win a thing.

Elizabeth Greenwood (17:13)

I hear you. And I think that that is a great example of memory bias. Of the way in which we will prioritize a story that we like that really kind of rhymes with our worldview. What I really emphasize for people who do want to become more intuitive or become even just more familiar with the way intuition shows up for them is becoming a little bit systematic about it. The neuroscientists I interviewed say that intuition is pattern recognition based on expertise, based on having expertise in a certain domain. So what I really advocate for is people becoming experts in themselves. So if you have an intuition to, say, go to that liquor store or to walk on the left side of the street that day versus the right side of the street, I think that you should notice that. And you should notice how that intuition shows up for you when you feel an urge or pull one way or another. Does that come to you as a sentence in your mind? Is it a feeling in your body? And how is that different than, say, something else like anxiety or fear or just plain old habits that we are all accustomed to? So I really recommend people clocking when they have an intuition. I keep a note on my phone of these sorts of things. You know, whatever kind of inclination I'm having that day, how I knew it and how it panned out. Because then you do actually have some hard data to pull from rather than our very fallible memories and storytelling that we all do.

Mike Carruthers (19:05)

We're discussing intuition with my guest Elizabeth Greenwood. She's author of the book Everyday Intuition. What Psychology, Science and Psychics Can Teach Us About Finding and Trusting Our Inner Voice. I am definitely not a big clothes shopper and probably like you, I've bought clothes online that were disappointing. But I have a very different experience with Quince and I've come to find out that so many people I know shop Quince. So far I've gotten a couple of shirts and sweaters from Quince and well, you'll know what I mean when I say this. Every time I get something new from Quince, it goes right to the top of the rotation. My Quince clothes are my go to clothes. If you don't know Quince, you are going to love their website. Quince has all the things you actually want to wear, like organic cotton silk polos like the ones I have, European linen beach shorts, pants for every occasion. Really nice pants. And here is the very best part. Everything at Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. You see, by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint's gives you luxury pieces without those big markups. I've really been amazed at how many people tell me they shop at Quint's. It's become like the place to go to buy clothes. Elevate your closet with Quince. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-N-C-E.comSYSK to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comSYSK we talk a lot about health on something you should know. And I guess it motivates me. I mean, I'm not a nut about it, but I try to take care of my health. I want to preserve my mobility and strength as I get older. And I recently started taking this supplement. Maybe you've heard about it. It's called Mitopure. Mitopure is a precise dose of something called Urolithin A that supports your health by encouraging cellular renewal. Since I started taking it, I can tell I have more energy and I notice I recover faster after I exercise. I did some research on this too. There's some real science here that supports what I'm saying and so does my experience. Mitopure is the only Urolithin A supplement on the market that is clinically proven to target the effects of age related cellular decline. And Mitopure is shown to deliver double digit increases in muscle strength and endurance without a change in exercise. From my own experience, I have more energy and strength and just overall feel better every day. And who doesn't want that? And I'm not just recommending it to you. On this podcast, I tell friends and other people I know about it because of how it makes me feel. Now Timeline is the company behind Mitopure and timeline is offering 10% off your order of Mitopure. Go to timeline.com something that's T-I-M-E-L-I-N-E.com something. So Elizabeth, the term women's intuition, everyone's heard that, but do women have some sort of special intuition that men don't have? Is women's intuition a thing?

Elizabeth Greenwood (22:47)

It's such a great question and it's a question that I was really interested in pursuing because I became interested in this question, this topic, this question of intuition when I became a mother myself and I felt I had this stream of kind of non cognitive knowledge really kicking on in my body in this meaningful way. So I did want to find out about women's intuition and here's what the research shows. There is a seminal study from the 1980s where they paired mixed groups of people, men and women. They assigned one person to be the boss and another person to be the subordinate. And what they found is that the people who were in the position of power did not have to have any awareness or empathy or intuition around their subordinates. The subordinate, however, had a heightened awareness about the boss, about what was going on with them, about what they were saying, thinking, feeling. So what that study has shown is that, quote, unquote Women's intuition is really more about positionality and about people who are marginalized and have to have more of an awareness of the dominant group do tend to notice and exhibit more intuition toward that group than people who do not have to have that awareness.

Mike Carruthers (24:27)

You said a moment ago that intuition and anxiety, two different things, can feel the same. And I'm not sure I understand that. So can you explain that a little more?

Elizabeth Greenwood (24:39)

Let me give you an example. A friend had a 40th birthday party a few years back and the party was just this, this amazing girls trip. We were going to fly to Milan, take the Red Eye and then rent a car and drive up to the mountains to wine country to go to this wine festival. This is so dreamy. However, prior to this trip I was having horrible nightmares about the car, you know, careening off the road, about doom and disaster. And I was feeling really some very, very aroused, very high level fear around this trip. Now if I had not been thinking very deeply about intuition, it would have been really easy for me to say my intuition says don't go on this trip. I'm just having a really bad gut feeling that something bad is going to happen on this trip. But what I did was I stopped and took a deep breath and tried to really examine what this fear was. Well, the fact of the matter is I was anxious because I was going with people I didn't know very well. I was anxious because I was in a car accident years ago and I've always felt pretty uneasy about car travel, especially, you know, in a new country after getting off a Red Eye and coach, etc. So I think that we all, all of us do, will have responses to things that can feel very fast, very complete, and that looks like intuition. But if you are willing to dig a little deeper and dig into your personal history and think about what chords those feelings might also be touching, you can find that that actually could have something to do with past trauma, with past experience. That isn't exactly intuition. It might be something else.

Mike Carruthers (26:38)

But it would seem that those things would be a piece of the puzzle of intuition, that your past experiences shape your intuition to some extent that you've had that experience of being in that car accident, of not being comfortable around strangers, that, that's a piece of it.

Elizabeth Greenwood (26:58)

That's absolutely a piece of it. No doubt. Like I said, intuition is everything that's ever happened to you in a way. But if you want to become more wise and use intuition really as a more kind of sharp and refined tool rather than just a Blunt instrument. You have to start kind of pulling back the layers a little bit. So, you know, if every time my heart starts racing when I get into a car and I call that intuition, that's not exactly intuition. That is based on past experience, but that's more anxiety than intuition.

Mike Carruthers (27:36)

One of the things that I guess people struggle with when you talk about intuition, the question becomes, do you or don't you trust it? If you can't trust it, what good is it? And if you do trust it and it's wrong, what good is it?

Elizabeth Greenwood (27:54)

Well, I think we could also say that about rational decision making. I mean, I think that there are a lot of times when we, you know, follow the Excel spreadsheet and it still leads us to an outcome that we don't want. Again, I think this really all leads back to expertise, to becoming experts in ourselves, to monitoring those decisions that we make and how we're making them. You know, I think that dating is a great realm for this. What kind of impression did you have about this potential partner initially? And did that pan out or not pan out? I think that there's so many different realms of exploration for us to do this. And I think that intuition, again, it is synonymous with self knowledge. So this is just kind of another way in to get to know yourself.

Mike Carruthers (28:51)

Well, that's certainly true that dating is probably a really good. Because what else do you have to go on? You go on a first date with somebody, there's not enough data there to decide really whether there should be a second date. Well, there might be enough data to decide there should not be a second date, but there may not be enough data to really suggest that we should move this forward. Other than gut feeling. Just. What? Well, yeah, well, that's exactly right.

Elizabeth Greenwood (29:20)

And there are so many times, I think that, you know, we have. It's possible you go on a date with someone who's great on paper. You know, they have the job, the career that you like, you have similar interests, you live in the same part of town. But then when you meet, there's something that just doesn't connect. And that's intuition. Right? I mean, and that's really kind of, I think more valuable in a way is what that. That certain chemistry, that ineffable feeling is. So you can call that intuition, you can call it chemistry, but it is, you know, that kind of data that will not show up on paper, that won't show up on the dating profile. That is important to listen to.

Mike Carruthers (30:03)

Well, think about it. Intuition is something everybody has experienced. I can't imagine anybody not having that gut feeling about something at some point in their life. Yet it's really hard to know what to do with it or not do with it. Or is it real? I really enjoyed talking to you about it because it's clarified a lot of things for me. I've been speaking with Elizabeth Greenwood. The name of her book is Everyday Intuition what Psychology, Science, and Psychics Can Teach Us About Finding and Trusting Our Inner Voice. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Elizabeth, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for being here.

Elizabeth Greenwood (30:42)

Thanks, Mike. Take care.

Walt Brinker (30:45)

You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quotes with rates from other companies so you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

Mike Carruthers (31:17)

I am a big fan of Shopify. They have been a longtime sponsor here and Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses. And they should be behind yours too, because they get it right. If you run a business, you know, as I do, that there are so many details that need your attention, it can be overwhelming. Finding the right tool that can handle a lot of those details and simplify the selling process, well, that's a game changer and it makes your life easy and helps you sell more, which is what Shopify does. Shopify handles 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark. If Mattel and Gymshark are using Shopify as their commerce platform along with millions of other businesses, shouldn't you be too? Shopify gets you up and running with your own design studio. They've got hundreds of ready to use templates to build a beautiful online store and AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. If you've ever tried to build an online store, this has got to sound pretty tempting. Turn your big business ideas into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com sysk go to shopify.com sysk shopify.com sysk open your eyes and look around and unless you're standing out in the middle of nowhere, you can probably see things that were manufactured, designed and made by someone or some people somewhere. And when you start to think about all the things that are man made, that are manufactured, it's really staggering and something worth discussing. And the perfect person to discuss it is Tim Minshall. He is an engineering academic who works at the University of Cambridge. He also delivers outreach programs to raise awareness of manufacturing among primary and secondary school children.

Tim Minshall (33:38)

And.

Mike Carruthers (33:39)

And he is author of a book called how things are A Journey through the hidden World of Manufacturing. Hey Tim, welcome to something you should know.

Tim Minshall (33:49)

Hi Mike, thanks for having me here.

Mike Carruthers (33:51)

I love that we're talking about this because as you say, we are literally surrounded every day by manufactured items, things that somebody created and made somewhere, somehow, and yet it's also very invisible. Like we don't think about all the things we have that somebody actually sat down and planned and designed and made, and yet the things that we manufacture in our world make our world.

Tim Minshall (34:21)

It's so true. And this sounds like a silly thing to say, but just doing that little exercise of just pausing, looking around where you are now and you. And every single thing you can see, unless it's a plant, a rock, another person or some other animal has been manufactured. And it sounds so, so obvious and so almost trite to say it, but it's really true. And once you start to think about it, it's almost overwhelming that every single thing, unless it's a plant, a rock, another human or some other animal has been made in a factory. Someone somewhere had to design that thing to choose the materials from which it would be made, to get those materials, to assemble them into components or subsystems and then assemble them into a bigger thing and then get it shipped to where it's needed and then get it delivered to where it's actually going to be used. All of that for every single object. And I'm sitting here at my desk and you know, everything, everything, the desk itself, the carpet on which it sits, the chair, the pen, the computer, the microphone I'm talking into. Now every single thing has a manufacturing story behind it. But as you say, most of this is just invisible. We don't see it, we don't notice it, we just take it for granted.

Mike Carruthers (35:37)

Well, I think one reason that manufacturing things is somewhat invisible here in the US and perhaps in Europe as well, is that we don't see it. I mean, so much of the manufacturing has left and gone to Asia and India and that we don't see see it. So we don't think about the process of manufacturing and all the things that go into it.

Tim Minshall (36:00)

That's Right. And I think even for very, very simple things. So I like to use this example of toilet paper, right. That's a fairly mundane and simple product. But taking just a UK example, if I may. So the sheet of toilet paper doesn't seem very advanced or complex yet. To make it requires trees grown up in Scandinavia and trees grown in South America, because the properties of those different trees means that you have different properties of the wood pulp. And so to make something as simple as a roll of toilet paper requires vast forests to be grown and it takes decades for them to grow. You chop down those trees, you use most of it for construction and all sorts of other good things. Some of it is used and made into wood pulp, and that wood pulp is then used for all sorts of different things, one of which is toilet paper. And so what's kind of worrying about this whole manufacturing system is that even for something as simple as a sheet of toilet paper, it has a journey that typically has encompassed thousands of miles. Huge amount of resource has been used to develop and to make and to deliver that to you. Huge amounts of energy, huge amounts of water, huge amounts of stuff needed to happen to make that work. And it's incredibly wasteful. Now, we like our large variety of products. I mean, I'm a massive hypocrite. I love the fact that any of us can go into any mall or any market, any supermarket, any mini market, and just look at the variety of products that are there. It's absolutely brilliant. But as you say, because so many of these products just appear on shelves, we don't really appreciate the journey that they've gone through.

Mike Carruthers (37:44)

So I want you to tell the story about something that people really never give much thought to at all, but is actually a big player in this story of manufacturing that you're telling. And that is the shipping container, that thing you see on the back of trucks and on railway cars, that thing has changed the world. And people don't know the story.

Tim Minshall (38:07)

Absolutely. And one of the key cost issues, of course, is transport. And so one of the greatest innovations of our time is the wonderful invention of the shipping container. It's just a standard sized metal box, but the genius of Malcolm McLean and his Sealand Company, a shipping company in the States, coming up with the idea of a standard, a standardized dimension of box that could go onto the railroad, go on the back of trucks, could go onto ships and you could just switch between them was absolute genius. And the story of how he developed that shipping container and when he had the first ships running, I think down the eastern US Seaboard, the cost per ton, per mile dropped unbelievably, like 90% lower cost by doing it in shipping containers. And as soon as you have that, then the fact that a factory is very, very far away from you doesn't matter anymore. Because the cost of shipping is so low, it's a tiny percentage of the overall cost of the customer. So you're right. By people far away being able to manufacture things cheaply makes it very attractive. But it only works if the transport costs to and from that country are cheap as well.

Mike Carruthers (39:25)

So just how old is the shipping container and what was used before it?

Tim Minshall (39:31)

So before the shipping container, you did what's called break bulk, you literally had very, very skilled longshoremen and dock workers who would be tasked with saying, here are all the things that need to go on a ship, and we're going to have to load this ship in the optimal way. So imagine the shape of a ship, it's got curves in it and all sorts of things. So loading a ship with lots of products is actually very, very skillful. Because you get it wrong, the ship becomes unbalanced and will, you know, bad things will happen in the ocean. So loading a ship was a highly skilled job that required lots and lots of dock workers to bring things onto the ship and stow them where they were needed. So it was what's called break bulk. Lots of things in small units being just one by one brought onto the ship, the shipping container just completely removed the need for that. And so by just making this very elegantly simple leap of faith by saying, rather than lots of little products each being taken onto a ship one by one, or in little bundles or on trolleys or on small hoists, put everything into a big box and just lift the big box onto a ship. So this, I believe, goes back to the 1950s when it was started. But as you can imagine, this had a very dark side to it as well, because it put a huge number of people out of jobs. So this idea of innovation and advanced technologies and new technologies that make life better, that reduce cost costs, is absolutely great. But very often there's a negative side to it as well. And so the communities that had built up around the docks, employing thousands of workers, often generations upon generations of workers, I mean, if you look at the Port of Los Angeles or anywhere in the world, there's relatively few people working there now.

Mike Carruthers (41:17)

You know, I don't think I've ever heard the story of the shipping container. I mean, I've noticed that, you know, it's pretty cool that the same container can be put on a, a railroad car or the back of a truck. But I didn't know it was as revolutionary as you're describing it.

Tim Minshall (41:33)

It's quite incredible. Just the standardization of a metal box transformed everything about our modern economy.

Mike Carruthers (41:42)

What gets mind boggling to me is like take a car for example, and we talk about manufacturing a car, but in large part manufacturing a car is really taking little components or big components that have themselves been designed and manufactured by somebody, brought together in a factory and then assembled and then put into a car to make the car. And that is part of manufacturing, right? The assembly?

Tim Minshall (42:14)

Absolutely. To me, manufacturing is the whole process of making the thing, of moving it to where it's needed and even the process of consumption. Because by us buying a thing and us having that thing serviced or supported or repaired is also part of this whole manufacturing journey in my view. And so that great point you make there about a car. So a typical petrol car, gasoline powered car, has around 30,000 components and those will be sourced from factories all around the world. And we're certainly seeing that at the moment. It's becoming much more visible. The consequences of having things made in lots of different countries and then all those parts that are made in these different factories all coming together to one central place to be assembled is absolutely extraordinary. How well that works, how efficiently that all works, if you can move things across borders reasonably smoothly. It's interesting as well that a car with its 30,000 components, which strikes me as quite a lot, but then if you look at things like an airliner, which is up into the millions of components, and some of the older planes, like a 747 I think has about 6 million components. Modern planes have slightly fewer than that, but it's still millions of individual components. Every single one has to be perfectly manufactured, delivered at the right time, the right cost, at the right quality, to exactly where it's needed to be assembled into some subsystem, to be assembled into some bigger system, to be assembled into the final product, be it a iPhone or a car or a plane. It's just mind boggling that it works at all.

Mike Carruthers (43:53)

So you mentioned toilet paper and I'd love to get some more examples from you. Some actual things that get made that people would be surprised to realize what.

Tim Minshall (44:02)

It takes, something as simple as sugar. And I love the story of making sugar because sugar processing plants are quite energy intensive. You know, in one end, raw material straight from field or wherever it may be out. The other end, nice Clean packets of white or brown sugar. In between those two points, so much energy, so much effort is put in to process that. And I love the fact that with a sugar plant near us here in the east of England, it's quite amazing because they produce, they require so much energy that they used to just burn off any excess they had. They just piped it away and they didn't even bother about it. Seeing nowadays how something as energy intensive as the manufacturing of sugar is an exemplar of the future of manufacturing, and what I mean by that is, what they're trying to do is to make their factories circular. What I mean by that is there's no waste. Everything related to the making of sugar that in the past might have just been chucked away at the end as a. Well, that's just a byproduct we don't need. That has now become something that is valuable either to the business itself or to another business. Here's a quick example. At the end of the process of making sugar, you often end up with some very low grade types of sugar sort of heading to the molasses end of things. There's not that much you can do with it. But by building a bioethanol plant at the end of the sugar production line, they can actually produce biofuel. They can actually start making fuel from the residual, the waste products of making sugar. It's quite amazing. Another example they did was they were producing a lot of CO2 of carbon dioxide and this was just being vented to the atmosphere, which is, was not good. So this sugar plant decided, they said, well, what else could we use CO2 for? And heat. And the answer is for ripening crops, things like tomatoes. So as a side business, they set up the production of glass houses specifically for ripening tomatoes and pumped all their excess heat and CO2 into those greenhouses, making a wonderful environment for ripening tomatoes. Interestingly, when they found out that the market for tomatoes was getting a bit challenging, they actually switched to the production of medicinal cannabis, which has proved to be a growing market in certain countries at the moment. So again, this idea that a simple thing like a packet of sugar, you're sitting there, you tear the top off, pour it into your coffee. I would never have given that a moment's thought that even the making of sugar is an incredibly complex manufacturing story.

Mike Carruthers (46:50)

Another part of the manufacturing process that is really invisible, but is an important part of the process is whatever it is you're making, you're probably always looking to make it better, make it Smaller, make it more efficient, make the process of making it more efficient. You're always trying to improve on your improvements.

Tim Minshall (47:12)

So this is going to be quite hard to make work on a, on, on a podcast. But down by my feet is a 1980s cell phone. So this is one of the ones that was roughly the size of a car battery. And I use it as a doorstop now. Okay. So that's, it's a very impressive piece of technology. At the time, this was space age technology. This was the coolest thing to have. Emergency mobile phone, a phone you could walk around with that had no cables attached to it and you could make calls. Absolutely brilliant. So they spent a lot of time making the components for that better. They spent a lot of time improving the making of that giant mobile phone. But what they were also doing was making the phone better, smaller, cheaper, with more features in it. So I have littered around my spare room here these old phones that go from car battery sized giant phones right down to the tiniest little Nokia phone which is like a Mars bar that's been sliced down the middle. It's so thin and so small, right the way up to my nice shiny iPhone which then got bigger again as more and more features are added in. So manufacturing is about continuous improvement, both of the product as well as making the making of the product better and better. This process of continuous improvement, something manufactured.

Mike Carruthers (48:39)

That everybody interacts with every day, is clothing. Clothing is manufactured.

Tim Minshall (48:46)

So the story of the manufacturing of clothing is an interesting one. It's produced wonderful things, low cost clothing almost all of us can access. But it's also by making it into a disposable product, something we waste a lot of. And the whole idea of fast fashion has perhaps amplified that. But if you want to get, and to be a really good buyer of clothing, it gets quite tricky because what do we mean by good? So the huge amount of water that's required to make a single pair of jeans is just eye watering because there's the actual production of the cotton that needs a lot of water to make that grow because it's quite a tricky crop to grow. There's then all of the processing the of cotton requiring even more water. There's then the producing of the weaving and then the dyeing of the textile to make it in, to give it that nice denim color. There's then all the process of cutting and sewing to make the pair of jeans and we then put them back in to re wash them again to give them a distressed look. So a simple thing like a pair of jeans has an extraordinary story of energy and water consumption behind it. So you might say, well, I'll just buy better jeans, I'll only source naturally grown cotton, I'll only use the indigo dye that's been sourced from an appropriate source. But you and I, none of us, we don't really have the time to look at every single product in the store and go, can I work out whether these genes are actually the best ones for the planet? So we have to rely on other people, we have to trust our judgment. And one of the good things about the world of manufacturing at the moment is that most companies are actually really quite keen for us to know how a product has been made, because they know sooner or later, if they're doing a bad thing, someone's going to find out about it. So the visibility we now have of the iPhone supply chain, of the Levi's supply chain, of all of the supply chains of products, is a really positive thing. It gives us a sense that we understand where these products have come from. Another example is electric vehicles and batteries. Just extraordinary. Where many of us strongly believe that electric vehicles are absolutely the way forward, not everyone agrees. Others can see there's a long future for petrol cars and maybe even hydrogen vehicles. But at the moment there's a movement that says electric vehicles are good. But if you break down the supply chain of an electric vehicle and you go right the way back to saying, not just how's the car built, how are the components made, but how are the batteries made? Where do the materials come from in that battery? It doesn't take you long to trace it all the way back to a small number of countries where they're mining things like cobalt. And we don't really always know how safe, how worker friendly those mines were. And there's some really quite bad stories about what happens in some of those very, very, very distant mines way, way down the supply chain. So I think this idea of trying to choose a product that is good for the planet and has been well made is very tricky. But now for this generation, for us now, we have the best possible chance of understanding what's going on and shedding a bit of light onto these complex supply chains so that we can make, we can help companies, we can force companies to be better at how they manufacture things, to do it in a way that's less harmful for the planet, but also so we know we're buying a product that has been made ideally in the least harmful way possible.

Mike Carruthers (52:24)

Well, ever since I saw your book, I've become much more aware and see things everywhere and think, you know, how did that get here? Who made that? Where was it made? It's such an interesting way of looking at the world. I've been talking to Tim Minchall from the University of Cambridge and he is author of the book How Things Are A Journey through the Hidden World of Manufacturing. There's a link to his book in the show notes and Tim, thanks so much for coming.

Tim Minshall (52:51)

Mike, many thanks for that. Really appreciated it and enjoy the rest of your day.

Mike Carruthers (52:59)

Having your car break down is the worst and yet most of the time it is preventable. According to Walt Brinker, author of a book called Roadside Survival, the majority of times that cars break down is tire related, usually a flat or a blowout, and that is usually because of underinflated tires. Take care of your tires and they will take care of you. Another big reason people break down is they run out of gas. Also preventable, but still it happens. And even if you go get a gallon of gas at a gas station to put into your empty tank, it often won't start. Why? Because you're pulled over to the shoulder, your car is often not level, it's leaning to the right and the gas pools to the right side of the tank and can't get to where it needs to go. Walt says the solution is to rock the car while someone turns the key to try to start it. And still another reason a car breaks down is it just stops working. And Walt finds that very often it's just a case of the clamp on the battery terminal comes loose. So check that. It may be all you need to fix the problem. And that is something you should know as a listener to this podcast. It would really help us if you would help spread the word about it. Tell a friend, use the Share button on the app you're listening on and help us get new listeners. It is greatly appreciated. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thank you for listening today to something you should know.

Amy Nicholson (54:35)

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

Paul Scheer (54:38)

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

Amy Nicholson (54:46)

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

Paul Scheer (54:51)

Yeah, like Amy thinks that you know Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas and.

Mike Carruthers (54:55)

I don't he's too old.

Amy Nicholson (54:56)

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dune 2 is overrated.

Tim Minshall (55:00)

It is.

Amy Nicholson (55:01)

Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites.

Paul Scheer (55:08)

Must sees, and in case you missed.

Amy Nicholson (55:10)

Ems, we're talking Parasite, the Home Alone.

Paul Scheer (55:12)

From Grease to the Dark Knight.

Amy Nicholson (55:13)

We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks, we've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look.

Paul Scheer (55:18)

And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of a Ganja and Hess.

Amy Nicholson (55:22)

So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

Paul Scheer (55:26)

Listen to unspooled wherever you get your.

Amy Nicholson (55:27)

Podcasts and don't forget to hit the Follow button.

Sarah Gabrieli (55:38)

From the podcast that brought you to each of the last lesbian bars in the country and back in time through the sapphic history that shaped them, comes a brand new season of Cruising beyond the Bars. This is your host, Sarah Gabrieli, and I've spent the past year interviewing history making lesbians and queer folks about all kinds of queer spaces, from bookstores to farms to line dancing and much more.

Elizabeth Greenwood (56:03)

For 11 years, every night women slept illegally on the Common.

Mike Carruthers (56:08)

We would move down to the West.

Elizabeth Greenwood (56:10)

Indies to form a lesbian nation.

Tim Minshall (56:12)

Meg Kristen coined the phrase women's music.

Mike Carruthers (56:14)

But she would have liked it. Say it was lesbian music. And that's kind of the origins of the Combaheever Collective.

Sarah Gabrieli (56:22)

You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes air every other Tuesday starting February 4th.