The Science of Charisma & Why Midlife Is Better Than Everyone Thinks

Summary

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Podcast Episode Summary: "The Science of Charisma & Why Midlife Is Better Than Everyone Thinks"

Podcast: Something You Should Know (Host: Mike Carruthers)
Date: July 23, 2026

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Overview

This episode of "Something You Should Know" dives into two major topics:

1. The Science of Charisma — Featuring Olivia Fox Cabane ([05:44]), author of The Charisma Myth, discussing how charisma is not just an innate trait, but a learnable skill set anyone can acquire.
2. Why Midlife Is Better Than Everyone Thinks — With Professor Margie Lachman ([29:33]), a leading psychology researcher, sharing positive research on midlife, debunking "midlife crisis" myths, and reframing midlife as an era of opportunity and growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fascinating Fact: Why Insects Are Attracted to Porch Lights ([02:09])

• Insight: Insects are not attracted to light because they like it—they’re actually confused by artificial lights. Their instinct is to keep the brightest part of the sky above them, useful for millions of years before light bulbs.
• Actionable Tip:
  • Using “soft white,” “warm white,” or amber bulbs will attract fewer bugs compared to “daylight” or “cool white.”
  • "If you want to reduce the number of bugs attracted to your light, change the bulb." ([03:02])

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2. The Science of Charisma: With Olivia Fox Cabane

The Myth of Innate Charisma ([05:44], [06:03])

• Charisma is not purely innate:
  • "That is the key myth about charisma...most people think that it’s innate...when in fact we now have the science to show that charisma is not innate, it is just a series of behaviors." – Olivia Fox Cabane ([06:03])
• Even icons like Bill Clinton and Steve Jobs developed charisma intentionally; it’s not all natural talent.
• Some super-charmers (e.g., Bill Clinton) started young, but others (e.g., Steve Jobs) transformed themselves over decades.

Can You "Turn On" Charisma? ([08:40])

• Charisma is a deliberate “mode” that can be turned on or off, like Marilyn Monroe did with her "Norma Jean" persona:
  • "We do have these stories of the charismatic superstars turning it on and off." ([09:44])

Is Charisma Always Positive? The Downsides ([10:27])

• Downsides:
  • Can lead to people following you even when you’re wrong (notably in Silicon Valley with startups).
  • "Charismatic founders have a huge advantage in fundraising, but ... can sometimes have a genuine disadvantage in leading..." ([10:33])

The 3 Core Elements of Charisma ([11:19])

• Presence: Full attentiveness and being in the moment.
• Power: Projecting confidence, which is often read via body language rather than actual authority.
• Warmth: Showing genuine care for others’ well-being.
  • "Presence, power, and warmth—put them together and all your instincts say, pay attention to this one." ([12:20])

Applying the Components – Practical Definitions ([12:50])

• Presence: Give undivided attention—rare in a distracted era.
• Power: Projected via confident body language; built by removing self-doubt and self-criticism.
• Warmth: Cannot be faked—genuine positive feeling towards others is essential, but even liking something small about someone helps (e.g., their shoes, punctuality).

Implementation Tips ([25:00])

• For presence: When distracted, focus on your toes momentarily to physically ground yourself.
  • "Immediately focus on your toes...it gets you very physically present in the moment." ([25:03])
• For warmth: Find three authentic, even minor, things you like about a person; this primes your body language with genuine approval.
• For self-compassion:
  • Be forgiving to yourself—self-directed coldness (self-judgment) is perceived as judgment by others ([19:02]).
  • "The most important tool to increase self-confidence is actually self-compassion, the ability to forgive yourself when you mess up." ([19:13])
• For voice: Lower your intonation at the end of sentences to convey authority; pausing strategically when you speak increases perceived status.
  • "Being able to pause before you speak ... tends to make people pay more attention. Those are some quick ways to convey power." ([23:39])

Charisma is Not Only for Extroverts ([22:00])

• Introverts can be charismatic—Bill Gates, Elon Musk, and the Dalai Lama have “focused” or “kindness” charisma driven by presence and warmth, not loudness.

Actionable Quote ([25:09])

• "Remember that charisma isn't just how you make them feel about you, it's how you make them feel about themselves. Let them impress you and they will love you for it. Stop trying to impress people." – Olivia Fox Cabane ([25:09])

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3. Why Midlife Is Better Than Everyone Thinks: With Professor Margie Lachman

What is Midlife? ([29:41])

• Definition: Approximately 40 to 60 (give or take a decade)—more social and role-based than purely chronological.
  • "I like to define it as 40 to 60 plus or minus 10 ... many people in their 30s and 60s consider themselves middle aged." ([29:41])
• Essence: Being “in the middle” of generations, often caring for children and aging parents—“the sandwich generation.”

The Reputation Problem ([31:31])

• Negative stereotypes: Midlife seen as dull or a waiting room for old age, which is inaccurate and potentially damaging to health and wellbeing.
• Negative beliefs about aging affect health and longevity:
  • "Having negative views about aging can really affect your health and even how long you live." ([31:50])

Why Does Mindset Matter? ([32:19])

• Mindset and health:
  • If you believe it’s “all downhill,” you’re less likely to engage in healthy, adaptive behavior.
  • Stress from negative views is also harmful.
• Positive framing leads to healthier, more proactive choices.

The “Midlife Crisis” Myth ([36:02])

• Origin: Introduced in 1965 by Elliot Jaques; cemented by culture, but largely a stereotype.
• Reality: Only about 20–25% report a “midlife crisis,” and what they label as such often stems from specific stressful events (divorce, job loss) that could happen at any age ([37:54]).
• Men vs. Women: No significant gender difference in reporting “crisis.” ([40:31])

Dissatisfaction and Reevaluation ([41:24], [43:01])

• Looking back and forward: Natural to reevaluate life at any “midpoint,” but this does not equate to crisis.
• Many millennials entering midlife are also facing unmet expectations due to shifting goalposts, social trends ([42:16]).
• No one hits all their goals on time—perfection is an illusion.

Generational Differences in Aging ([45:06])

• Younger self-perception: People now feel about 20% younger than their actual age.
• **Lifestyle and health improvements mean 60- and 70-year olds act (and feel) younger than previous generations.

Key Takeaways ([46:41])

• Focus on gains, not losses:
  • "It’s important that we focus more on the gains that accompany midlife than on the losses. Things like self-confidence, ability to regulate emotions, knowledge, your ability to solve problems—all of these things are on the rise...even as some aspects decline.” – Margie Lachman ([47:08])
• Midlife is ‘Prime Time’:
  • "Midlife is prime time and that's a fundamental reframe that I hope many will embrace." ([48:30])

Vision for Midlife ([48:30])

• Opportunity vs. Loss: Use cumulative experience and skills as a launchpad for new goals and fulfillment rather than seeing midlife as a decline.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Charisma:

  • "Presence, power, and warmth—put them together and all your instincts say, pay attention to this one." – Olivia Fox Cabane ([12:20])
  • "The most important tool to increase self-confidence is actually self-compassion." ([19:13])
  • "Let them impress you and they will love you for it. Stop trying to impress people." – Olivia Fox Cabane ([25:09])

• On Midlife:

  • "We've been sold this narrative of midlife is a crisis, but the data that we have tell a very different story. Really, midlife is prime time..." – Margie Lachman ([48:30])
  • "Having negative views about aging can really affect your health and even how long you live." ([31:50])
  • "Even though we recognize there are many losses, we try to do something to maintain functioning and minimize the losses. At the same time, we want to recognize that you’re gaining in so many different ways..." ([47:13])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Why Insects Fly to Lights: [02:09]
• Charisma is Not Innate: [06:03]
• Charisma “On/Off” Personas: [08:53]
• Charisma’s Downsides: [10:27]
• Elements of Charisma: [11:19] (presence, power, warmth)
• Presence/Attention Tip: [12:50], [25:00]
• Voice and Pausing for Charisma: [23:15]
• Self-Compassion for Confidence: [18:33], [19:02]
• Introverts and Charisma: [22:00]
• Where to Start Building Charisma: [25:00]
• Midlife Defined: [29:41]
• Midlife Reputation Problem: [31:31]
• Midlife Crisis Myth: [36:02], [37:54]
• Feelings of Unmet Goals and Reframe: [41:24], [43:01]
• Generational Changes in Aging: [45:06]
• Midlife as Opportunity: [48:30]

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers practical, research-based insights:

• Charisma is learnable, rooted in behaviors anyone can adopt and refine.
• Midlife is not a crisis zone, but an era richly filled with opportunity, growth, and vitality—especially when approached with accurate information and a positive mindset.

Listeners leave with actionable steps for improving their own charisma and a science-backed reassurance that midlife can truly be "prime time."

Transcript

[A]

Today on something you should know why insects fly to your porch light and how to get them to go somewhere else. Then charisma. Anyone can have it if you understand how it works.

[B]

Remember that charisma isn't just how you make them feel about you, it's how you make them feel about themselves. Let them impress you and they will love you for it. Stop trying to impress people.

[A]

Also why you sometimes can't find things that are sitting right there in plain sight. And midlife. Midlife has a terrible reputation it doesn't deserve.

[C]

Unfortunately, we've been sold. This narrative of midlife is a crisis, but the data that we have tell a very different story. Really. Midlife is prime time and that's a fundamental reframe that I hope many will embrace.

[A]

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[B]

Thanks, Mike. It's great to be here.

[A]

So when I think of charisma and I think when most people think of charisma, somebody comes to mind, some very confident, very dynamic, very magnetic kind of person. And then I think, well, that's just who they are. And is that just who they are?

[B]

That is the key myth about charisma, indeed, that most people think that it's innate, that people are either born with it or they're not. When in fact we now have the science to show that charisma is not innate, it is just a series of behaviors.

[A]

But the people that I think of as charismatic, and you often hear people talk about, like say Oprah or Bill Clinton, that these are very charismatic people, do they work at it or is it just who they are?

[B]

Some people do have predispositions, a certain facility. And let me be clear, I can't turn everyone, possibly even anyone, into Bill Clinton. There are some people that are just superhuman in terms of charisma. What happens is that the people who have natural predispositions start learning the behavior so early in life that by the time we usually get to know them in, let's say, late teenagehood or adulthood, it looks as if it were innate. There are some fascinating stories about Bill Clinton, aged three or four, already being a mini politician on the playground, going around to all the kids, learning their names, asking the teacher questions, et cetera. However, the fascinating thing is that you also see some people like Steve Jobs, who absolutely learned their charisma. And you can see it from, in his case, 1983 to 2011, you can see him learning the various pieces of charisma, the components, the behaviors, one after the other.

[A]

So that's a much more intentional process of learning it. But what does it mean to learn it? I mean, is it, I mean, there's a book, you wrote it. But the, the idea of becoming charismatic is that a very sit down and intentional. I need to do these things to be charismatic and magnetic.

[B]

If you want to essentially gain it as fast as possible and as intensely as possible, yes. There are people who don't go about it in such a pragmatic or tactical way. And you'll hear, I hear from people saying, well, I decided when I was a teenager that I just learned and I copied people around me. But being a nerd, for me, the answer is always first, let's see if there's science out there. And guess what? There is. So the day that I learned and that in controlled laboratory experiments, researchers were able to raise and lower people's level of charisma as if they were turning a dial, that was the Day I decided, I'm going to learn this stuff because the science is out there if

[A]

you can turn it on and turn it off. Do you think charismatic people like Bill Clinton turns it off when he goes home, does he go, oh, God, thank God that's over with. Now I can be real or not?

[B]

I think so, yes. And the reason I think so is that some of the most fascinating stories in the lore of charisma are ones like Marilyn Monroe deciding she was going to prove that Norma Jean and Marilyn were Personas she could flip in and out of. And so on. One New York summer, I think it was 1955, she goes into Grand Central Station with a photographer and a journalist, and she was showing them that she could just be Norma Jean. So she boards a subway car, and even though there is a camera clicking the whole time, apparently not a single person noticed her. Then she emerges from the subway, goes back onto the street, turns to the reporter, says, so you want to see Marilyn? And he said that there wasn't a huge gesture. She just overall shifted her body language, fluffed up her hair. But all of a sudden, to the reporter, it looked magic. And all of a sudden, for all the people around, they realized it was Marilyn and the crowd went wild. So we do have these stories of the charismatic superstars turning it on and off. And we have the studies of participants, level of charisma going up and down, because charisma can take effort. I understand why some people would want to turn it off, especially since, let's be honest, downsides to being charismatic.

[A]

Really? You would think that if I can turn a dial and be more charismatic, that that's what would. What would the downside be?

[B]

It may sound weird, but people really do get high on your presence. And people can get kind of addicted to the charisma being turned on. And then they're the other ones. Like, you can convince people even when you're wrong. And I've seen this with founders in Silicon Valley time and time again. Charismatic founders have a huge advantage in fundraising, but they can sometimes have a genuine disadvantage in leading, because they will convince their team, they will convince customers, even when they are incorrect. And then eventually product market fit, or whatever it is that shows that they got everyone to drink their Kool Aid along with them, the company crashes into a wall.

[A]

So when you break charisma down into its core elements, what are they?

[B]

The three basic components of charisma? They get different names in different studies, but essentially presence, power, and warmth. If you look at presence, sometimes it's called attentiveness or receptivity. If you look at power, sometimes it's called dominance or assertiveness. If you look at warmth, sometimes it's called friendliness. But you can group them in these categories. What it means. If you look at it kind of from a survival perspective, it makes sense. It's can you move mountains for me? And would you care to do so? Because if you think of it, someone who can move the mountains but has no interest in moving the mountains you need moved doesn't really help your survival. Someone who really wants to move your mountains but doesn't have the power. Equally irrelevant. And someone who can and would but is too distracted to even know or notice which mountains you need moved. Again, irrelevant. So if you think of it, you can kind of parallel to sugar, fat and salt. The same way we overreact to sugar, fat and salt each individually. You put them together, you kind of get junk food. And that's when the taste buds go crazy. If you put presence, power and warmth together, that is when you have someone that all your instincts say, pay attention to this one.

[A]

And if you have presence, power and warmth, can you put those into action for me? Tell me, like, how they. How would I identify them? Just to get a more real, less abstract concept of what those three things are?

[B]

Sure thing. The presence one, ironically, is these days the easiest to get bonus points for because so few people have it. Presence is really the ability to stay present, focused and attentive on the other person moment by moment. It sounds simple, but it's not easy because we are so continuously distracted by our phones, our tablets, our watches, our everything, that anytime someone gives us genuinely full attention for even a few moments, it is extraordinary the outsized impact that this can have on the people that you're interacting with. So that's presence. And it's kind of like the foundation power. Power is not necessarily the actual power to command an army. It, it's more something that we infer, and we tend to infer it, to assume it from your body language. So it really comes down to if you appear confident, people will assume you have something to be confident about. And power, if you're looking for the one thing that can boost confidence, it's really a question of removing the one thing that kills it, which is self criticism and self doubt. Learning how to handle those two is kind of ground zero for emanating power and charisma. And the final one is warmth. And warmth is simply giving the sense that you care about the other person, that you care for. Their well being. And with most of the components in Charisma, it cannot be faked because humans are extraordinarily good at detecting incongruity in your body language. However, it can be for some small things. You can like some parts of the person. And the irony is, if you look at Steve Jobs, the warmth didn't come from his love of his audience or his customers. The warmth came from his enthusiasm for the product itself.

[A]

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[A]

We're talking about Charisma and how to acquire it with Elizabeth Fox Cobain. She's author of the book the Charisma How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal Magnetism. It's a best selling book and has been translated into 27 languages. So Elizabeth, you said that learning to conquer self criticism and self doubt is is ground zero for charisma. But if you're plagued by self doubt and self criticism, how do you conquer that? How do you get past that so you can move on and get charisma?

[B]

So I'd like to start from the inside and talk about the outside just in a second. Because from the inside, ironically, the route to projecting more power, more strength often comes from self compassion. Because Mike, have you ever been in a conversation where you think something and your brain goes, ooh, that was stupid. Has that ever happened to you?

[A]

Oh, more. More times than I'd like to think.

[B]

Right. So two things happen in that moment. One, your face kind of winces or cringes. And the really interesting thing is that that was self judgment, self directed coldness. But the other person doesn't know that. All they know is that while you were looking at them, listening to them and presumably thinking about them, they accurately read criticism, coldness and judgment on your face. So naturally they're going to assume it's about them. The other thing it's going to do is that our brain is pretty terrible at understanding the difference between imagination and reality. And this is the reason why when you go watch a horror movie, even though you know it's just a movie, your brain sees blood and guts on the screen, you still get the fight or flight, you still get the adrenaline, etc. So when you get internal attacks, it registers in your brain and it has some of the same impact as a real attack would have. And so interestingly, the most important tool to increase self Confidence is actually self compassion, the ability to forgive yourself when you mess up. So it's, for me, it's been really interesting over the past decade how often working with guys who wanted the big macho energy, we actually had to go through the soft forgiveness energy to get there. And the second way is understanding that your brain thinks that it's giving you an accurate picture of reality. Often it's not. Your brain is doing its very best. But if you've ever heard of the gorilla basketball study, when a group of students were told to count the number of passes that two teams made, and then after a few minutes, the researchers asked them, did you notice anything unusual about the video? And the student said, no, but we can tell you how many times they passed the ball. Turns out about halfway through the game, a woman dressed in a gorilla suit walked onto the court, waved her arms at the camera, and then walked off court again. And the reason most of the students miss this is called inattentional blindness. Our brain does its best, but it has to filter. And so sometimes it gives us a completely distorted picture of real. So remembering that just because a thought is in your head does not mean it is accurate can help in separating from the inner critic or the imposter syndrome that you can sometimes have. Understand that it's a natural, normal part of the human experience. Some studies say up to 80% of adult people experience it at some point or another and really detach from it as something that, you know what, it happens to everyone.

[A]

But it does seem to me, just when I think about the people that I think of as charismatic, that they tend to be much more extroverted, you know, back slapping kind of people, that may be too broad a stroke there. But you know what I mean that if you're an introvert being charismatic, it seems like oil and water.

[B]

So that's another myth. I'm so glad you brought up. You're right, that extroversion is an advantage for certain forms of charisma, but introversion is an advantage for other forms. So if you look at presence, power and warmth, you kind of think of them like in chemistry, you need a certain amount to reach the bare minimum to get charisma. After that, what changes is the kind of charisma you get depending on which of these is highest. So for focus charisma, for example, the kind that Bill Gates or when I met Elon Musk about 10, 15 years ago, he was a fairly different person, I'll admit. But at that point he was absolutely charismatic. But in a very Introverted, focused way. And what that is is highest on presence, second on power, and third on warmth. You can still, as an introvert, have kindness, charisma, the kind the Dalai Lama has, if you lead with warmth, second with presence, and lowest on power.

[A]

Charismatic people, it seems to me, have a way of speaking. There's a way of speaking that kind of draws people in. Do you agree with that? And if so, can you describe that way of speaking?

[B]

It turns out that lowering the intonation, the intonation of your voice at the end of sentences, and frankly even at sentence breaks, that is what conveys competence and authority. And the faster and deeper the drop, the more authority you convey, the more power you convey. So one of the myths that was debunked for me, I was one of the people who thought that lower voices are more charismatic, right? Wrong. When they studied Steve Jobs voice, who apparently had one of the most charismatic voices, his voice was so high it occasionally went into the female register. But he did have that fluctuation and he did have those sentence drops which are speaking as if it is a judged delivering a sentence. The other one, if you tend to not pause enough, interestingly, being able to pause before you speak, it doesn't have to be super long, it doesn't have to go the full Obama length, but being able to take just a moment before you speak will tend to make people pay more attention. So those are some of the quick ways to convey power.

[A]

And when you say pause, you mean before you start or pause throughout.

[B]

What's really interesting is if you look at high status and low status humans, the higher status ones tend to pause not just between sentences, but even in sentence breaks. Essentially, they're communicating that I am so damn confident in either who I am or what I'm saying that I am sure you will not dare interrupt me.

[A]

So if someone's listening to you and thinking, yeah, well, this is great, you know, I would like to be more charismatic. There seems to be a lot to it. Where do you start?

[B]

First of all, when you're in a conversation, anytime you feel that only half your mind is present and the other half is busy doing something else, immediately focus on your toes, just for a moment. What this does is it forces your brain to scan your body from head to, of course, toes, and it gets you very physically present in the moment. Remember that charisma isn't just how you make them feel about you, it's how you make them feel about themselves. Let them impress you and they will love you for it. Stop trying to impress people. The other one that I'd say is when you want to emote warmth, the good news is it doesn't even have to be big things because the brain isn't great at understanding scale. That's the reason that you know how a day when all the little things go wrong can sometimes be harder than a day when one big thing goes wrong. If you can find even just three small things that you like about the other person they have, you have to genuinely like them. But they can be as small as I like their shoes or they were on time. If you can start adding up the small things, this will send your brain down an approval route and that will come across in your body language. And the last one, and this is really one of the most important ones, is give yourself a break. Interestingly enough, the easiest way, and let me be clear and harsh, there's a reason that narcissism is positively correlated with charisma. It's because narcissists tend to be very easy on themselves. That gives them an advantage. Please don't become a narcissist. But learning how to forgive yourself. Most people are so hard on themselves. Self forgiveness is one of the unexpected routes to charisma.

[A]

Well, I find this empowering because I've always thought, and I think most people think that charismatic people just have that certain something like they're born with it. And clearly there's a process to acquiring charisma and anyone can do it. I've been talking with Olivia Fox Cobain. She is one of the world's leading authorities on the science of charisma and she's author of a best selling book called the Charisma How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal Magnetism. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Olivia, thank you. Thanks for joining me today.

[B]

Thank you so much, Mike. I really, really appreciate it. All right, have a good one.

[A]

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[C]

Thank you very much Mike. It's great to be here.

[A]

So what is midlife? How do you define it? It's the years between what and what?

[C]

Well, not everybody agrees on what the definition of midlife is. That's an interesting thing that I like to talk about, because what midlife is makes a big difference in terms of people's lives. So I like to define it as 40 to 60 plus or minus 10. And that's because there are many people in their 30s and 60s who do consider themselves middle aged. The way people define midlife varies. So the older you are, we find the later you think midlife begins and ends.

[A]

And I imagine there's more to the definition than just the age. Just a number.

[C]

I think of middle age not just in terms of chronological age. It's not just how many candles are on your birthday cake. It's also really the way that you are situated in terms of other generations. So in midlife, many people are counting on you and you basically hold many different roles and responsibilities. So there can be this intense feeling and that everyone is counting on you. So you're caring for your kids while also helping your aging parents. So you're literally in the middle, pulled in many directions and for me, that's really the essence of midlife. It's less about your chronological age and more about how you feel in your unique and challenging position between generations at home, at work and elsewhere.

[A]

Well, as I said in the beginning, you know, midlife middle doesn't have a real exciting feel to it, like you're not young anymore, so the fun is over and now you're in this kind of no man's land of midlife that for many people just doesn't feel so exciting.

[C]

Well, that's really what I think we need to do is to rebrand midlife because it really does get a bad rap. And there are so many good things going on in midlife. And one of the things I think that's unfortunate is that as people get to 40 or 50, a lot of the negative views that we have just about aging in general start to kick in. So I think a lot of the images of midlife are tied to these fears or negative views that we have of aging. And those aren't just depressing, it's actually dangerous. There's research that shows that having negative views about aging can really affect your health and even how long you live.

[A]

And why is that? Why is how you think about something going to affect your health?

[C]

Well, there's a lot of research now trying to understand what are the processes by why this can happen. And I have actually developed a theory called the psychosocial prescription for healthy aging. And it really focuses on why is it that your beliefs and your attitudes, your mindsets about aging actually are so strongly tied to health and longevity. So, for example, example, the most obvious is a behavioral explanation. So if you believe that things are going downhill and there's nothing that you can do about it, that may be a self fulfilling prophecy, you won't really try hard, you won't engage in the kinds of behaviors that actually could be adaptive. And a second factor that we have looked at is stress. So if you feel that things are out of control, there are nothing you can do to maintain your health and well being as you get older that it's all downhill. That also can cause stress. And we know that stress is damaging for health through a variety of different factors. And so we need to find ways to reduce stress. And one of the ways is really to have a much more positive view of midlife, focusing on the gains rather than the losses.

[A]

Well, I think part of the problem in midlife is it's kind of hard to identify how you're supposed to be like you're not young anymore. But you're not old anymore yet. So what does that mean? What does it mean to be in the middle? How are you supposed to act? How are you supposed to dress? How are you supposed to be there? Is that sense that you're kind of lost?

[C]

I think one of the most important changes that happens as you get to midlife is that the focus is no longer just on you. As you're in your 20s and 30s and starting to establish yourself, whether it's relationships or in the workforce, you can really focus on yourself. Once you get to midlife, though, there are a lot of people typically depending on you at home and at work. And so our network expands, and we have to focus on many things outside of ourself. And I think that can be confusing and also stressful, and it makes people unsure of what it is that they're supposed to do. So I agree with you in that it's a kind of an unexplored territory for many people. But the fact is that you do have a lot of experience and knowledge in general when you get to midlife. And people are really good at solving problems and making decisions in midlife. So we can really use the abilities that we've accomplished, acquired the knowledge and experience that we've gained to help us to navigate this difficult period.

[A]

Is it a difficult period? Is it supposed to be?

[C]

Well, I think it's difficult in the sense that you are being pulled in many different directions. There's this need to balance work and family, for example, to be focusing on taking care of those who are younger and older in the workplace. And it can feel like everybody's depending on you, everybody's counting on you. Many of us are familiar with the sandwich generation term, which addresses the fact that many people in their 40s and 50s are, in fact, caring for people who are under 18 and also their parents. And that can put a lot of demands and pressure on somebody because you're also trying to navigate your work. And what I think really takes a toll is that you are experiencing changes in your health as you enter midlife. And it's very important to be focused on maintaining health in midlife.

[A]

So if you asked 100 people, finish this phrase, midlife, everybody's gonna say crisis. That everybody has heard of the midlife crisis. What is that?

[C]

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I was gonna say that there's very few things that we get 90 to 100% agreement on in our research, and one of them is if you ask people to free term midlife, everybody says crisis. And that's really unfortunate. It's just an automatic response. I don't think people really even think about what it means. I will also say another example that we get a lot of agreement on is if you ask people, and we've done this in our survey, the Midlife of the United States survey, we've asked people, if you could be any age, what age would you like to be? And 90% of the people, and these are people even in their 30s beyond, say that they would like to be younger than the age that they are. They give an age that is younger. And if we talk to people in their 40s, 70% of them think that the ideal age would be in their 20s and 30s. And people in their 50s, about 70% of those people think that their ideal age is in their 20s and 30s. So. So there's just this negative view of being older, I think that gets swept up into our whole conception of midlife.

[A]

But the idea of a crisis, there must be some germ of something in there. And when I think of the midlife crisis, I think of typically the dad who's been a good dad all of a sudden goes out and buys a sports car and that's his midlife crisis. Well, what is that?

[C]

Okay, so I'm just going to say a little bit about the origin of the term midlife crisis. It started in 1965 by a psychoanalyst called Elliot Jacks. And he came up with a term to describe some of his clients who were in their 40s and 50s and were concerned that their life was over essentially, that there was not enough time left to accomplish anything, that it was all downhill from here. And that view stuck. It got resurrected, I think, in many different ways from things like Gail Sheehy's book on passages and also Hollywood and novelists and people write about the so called midlife crisis. And as you point out, there's this stereotypic view of the man who's unhappy and he wants to find a younger woman and he gets a red sports car. So that's what we envision as a midlife crisis. And that's certainly not what most people think about when they think about a real midlife crisis, fortunately. But people are expecting that things will be difficult in midlife. And we did a study with the Midlife in the United States survey that I mentioned earlier, where we asked people whether they had had a midlife crisis or not. And we didn't define it for them, we wanted them to define it. And so when we asked them what they thought A midlife crisis was. It really was interesting to see, and it's very consistent with what we find now. First of all, we found no more than 20 to 25% of people reported a midlife crisis. So that's about a quarter of people. And that's not nothing. But it's certainly not a rite of passage that many people associate with midlife. Now, when we asked them what a midlife crisis was, the most important thing I want to tell people is that a lot of times what happened and they described as a midlife crisis happened much before midlife or much after midlife. So the midlife crisis term is applied to things that don't even happen during the midlife period. And secondly, many of the things that they described as a midlife crisis were tied to things such as divorce or losing a job or having an illness that really could happen at any time. So we associate it with midlife, but it's not necessarily unique to midlife.

[A]

When I think of someone suffering a midlife crisis, I think of a man, not a woman.

[C]

Yes. When we looked at our data, though, there really were no differences between men and women in terms of the frequency of people who reported it. As I said, about a quarter of our sample reported a midlife crisis or that they called a midlife crisis. But there wasn't really much of a difference between men and women.

[A]

This sense of dissatisfaction, which I guess is what's underlying the midlife crisis, that I'm not where I want to be, or I'm not where I used to be, or I don't like where I am, and so I'm going to do something wild and crazy. I have to say, I don't know anybody that I've observed ever did that, but maybe they did, and I don't know it, but it just. It seems much more of a movie and a novel thing than it seems a real life thing to me.

[C]

I think what does happen is when you get to a point, a change in your decade, say 40 or 50, and in this case, the middle of your life, so called middle of your life, it's not unusual. It's really unnatural to look back and look ahead when you get to the midpoint of anything. So the fact that people are getting to midlife and looking back and maybe feeling that they haven't reached all of their goals, they feel that there's things that they wish they had accomplished, they hadn't. That doesn't surprise me. And that can lead to people being dissatisfied because they're concerned that time is Running out. This is one of the misconceptions that many people have. When you get to midlife, there's still half your life left. We assume there's half your life left. Of course, we don't know how long we're going to live, but there should be plenty of time left. And I think a lot of people panic that it's too late to do anything new. It's too late to change. And that may trigger some, what we call a crisis or difficult times in midlife. And I also think that we know that a lot of millennials, millennials who are just really entering midlife, and we don't know a lot about what their midlife is going to be. But many of them who are in their 30s are starting to be concerned because they really haven't met a lot of the goals that they thought they should have by now. They're taking longer to reach a lot of the milestones that typically have been met earlier in earlier generations.

[A]

Yeah. Well, you had said earlier, at the core of this might be that people feel that they haven't achieved all their goals yet where they thought they would be right now, and who has. Do you know anybody who has said, yep, everything's right on target. I am right where I thought I would be and right where I want to be. There's no dissatisfaction here. And I don't know a single person who would say that.

[C]

You're absolutely right. I completely agree with you. And I think the thing that triggers the concern is the fact that people think they're getting old. This notion of aging is what throws people off. So you get to be 40 or 50, and they feel that time is running out, and there's not enough time to accomplish goals. And that's really the rebrand or the. The way we need to sort of change. People's thinking is that you shouldn't have expected to have reached all of your goals. That would be, in a way, kind of boring. What else would be left for you to do for the rest of your life? So I do think that's important for us to convey this notion that you get to midlife and you could really look back and see where you've been, what things you have not accomplished, what things you would like to accomplish in the future, and then go for it.

[A]

Well, let me describe something that I've noticed, and I'm sure other people have noticed, too, about older people, people in their later years. Like when my grandmother was 60 years old, she dressed like an old lady. She acted like an old lady, she was an old lady. Today, 60 year olds don't act that way. 70 year olds don't act that way, or many of them, they like fight it. They're not willing to go down that path just yet. How does that play out in midlife? Or do midlife people. In other words, do midlife people act younger and seem younger and live younger today than they used to, just as older people seem to do it today unlike they used to?

[C]

Yes, I think you are onto something here. First, I'm going to say that when we ask people today how old they feel in general, they feel about 20% younger than they actually are. So if you're 40, you're likely to say you feel in your early 30s and if you're 50, you're likely to think you are feeling like you are in your early 40s. So there's this notion that people feel younger. And part of that I think is just our healthy lifestyle has really changed in more recent generations. And so people are healthier, we have more ways to treat illnesses and we're more aware of the things that we need to do that can help us to maintain our functional health and well being. And so I think people do feel a lot younger now than they used to be, in part because they are healthier. And your functional health is really what affects how you feel. If you can do the things that you want to do, then you feel young. But if you can't, then you're going to feel old. And so I think older generations really didn't do things like exercise. I don't think. I don't know about your grandmother, but I wonder if she really engaged in physical activity and physical exercise. Maybe they walked more than we than we do today. We are much more dependent on our automobiles than we used to be. But I think a lot of what we're seeing now in terms of younger generations feeling and looking younger has to do with taking better care of ourselves.

[A]

And so what is your message then? What is it you want people to understand about this? Because it is what it is. I mean, you can't not get into midlife and face the issues that midlife brings. So what do you want people to get?

[C]

Well, I really think it's important that we focus more on the gains that accompany midlife than on the losses. There's no doubt that there are things that are on the decline in midlife, physical changes that happen, but many of them are things we can do something about. So yes, there are declines in your reaction time and in your bone Density and in your muscle mass and so on, and in some aspects of cognitive functioning. But there are things you can do, physical activity, for example, or cognitive stimulation. So I think, I think it's important that even though we recognize there are many losses, we try to do something to maintain functioning and minimize the losses. At the same time, we want to recognize that you're gaining in so many different ways as you enter midlife and beyond. Things like self confidence, ability to regulate emotions, the knowledge you acquire, your ability to solve problems, all of these things are on the rise and increasing into midlife and beyond. And so I think if we focus on the things that are in our control, things that we can actually improve, then we can really do better in terms of our health and well being.

[A]

You have spent so much time studying people in their midlife. What maybe that we haven't talked about that you think is important to mention before we close things out?

[C]

Unfortunately, we've been sold this narrative of midlife is a crisis. But the data that we have tell a very different story, really. Midlife is prime time. And that's a fundamental reframe that I hope many will embrace. I think of midlife as a tremendous opportunity. It's really a moment in which you can use your experience and you've honed a lot of skills for decades and there's still plenty of time. So. So I like to see midlife through the lens of opportunity rather than loss. And if you do that, then everything can change for the better.

[A]

Well, I enjoy hearing you talk about this. Your view of midlife is very refreshing compared to what I think most people think of midlife, which is it's not an exciting time. It's kind of the fun is over and your view is much more optimistic. I've been talking to Margie Lackman. She's a professor of psychology at Brandeis University and author of the book A New Vision of Midlife. There's a link to her book in the show notes. Great, Margie, good discussion. Thank you.

[C]

Thank you so much. This is really enjoyable.

[A]

Have you ever searched for something like your glasses and you look everywhere only to discover they were right there? They were on the table the whole time. Well, that's not absent mindedness. Psychologists call it inattentional blindness. Your brain doesn't record everything your eyes see. It filters out most of what it sees so you can focus on what's important. The downside is that when you're looking for something specific, you can literally overlook an object that's sitting in plain sight because your brain has decided it doesn't match the picture that it's expecting. One trick that actually works is to stop looking from where you're standing, move to another spot, or crouch down. Changing your viewpoint changes what your brain notices, and that is something you should know. If you would like to support this podcast, I would suggest, and I know a lot of people do this to help us out is to just share it. Tell someone you know about it, share the link off the player you're listening to this on and help us grow our audience. That is the very best thing you can do. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[D]

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