The Science of Focus and Distraction & Unlocking Emotional Intelligence

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guests: Dr. Zelana Momini (Behavioral Scientist, Author), Mark Brackett (Founding Director, Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence)
Date: September 25, 2025
Episode Theme:
This episode explores two major themes: the science behind focus and distraction, and practical approaches to understanding and utilizing emotional intelligence. Host Mike Carruthers and two expert guests discuss why modern life has become so distracting, strategies for regaining concentration, and how emotions influence our behavior and relationships—plus concrete tools for better emotion regulation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why People Cheat – The Hormone Connection

[03:57 – 06:23]

• Key Insight: Cheating often isn’t deterred by appeals to morality.
• Hormonal Influence:
  • Research suggests elevated testosterone increases risk-taking and reward sensitivity, while cortisol (a stress hormone) gives a reason to cheat.
  • Cheating can reduce cortisol, making it a form of stress relief for some.
  • Lowering stress levels (e.g., via yoga, meditation, exercise) is more effective at reducing cheating than moral persuasion.
• Takeaway:
  • “Cheating lowers levels of cortisol and reduces the emotional stress, suggesting that cheating is in itself a form of stress relief…”
    — Mike Carruthers [04:57]

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2. Focus & Distraction in the Modern World

Guest: Dr. Zelana Momini, Behavioral Scientist
[06:25 – 28:15]

Defining Focus

• Beyond Mental Concentration:
  • Focus is “deciding what matters most and shaping your life around that.” — Dr. Zelana Momini [06:38]
  • It is not just discipline, but an act of survival and meaning-making in a noisy world.

Cultural State of Distraction

• Attention Fragmentation:
  • “Most of us, in fact, feel more anxious and restless and less satisfied. And I think most of that comes from the fact that our attention is divided.” — Dr. Zelana Momini [07:36]
• Perpetual Connection:
  • Modern tech (phones, smartwatches, Slack) creates constant interruptions; notification pings, content feeds, etc., never stop.

Reward System & Addiction to Checking

• We’re “trained to expect quick dopamine hits... so we have essentially trained ourselves to seek out distraction.”
  — Dr. Zelana Momini [09:01]
• Grabbing your phone during every downtime erodes deep rest and focus, even if it feels innocuous.

The Attention Economy

• Devices and apps are “designed to compete for our attention because your time on a screen is their product.” — Dr. Zelana Momini [12:16]
• Cultural and social pressures reinforce the need to be instantly available, perpetuating stress.

Embracing Boredom as Renewal

• Leaving devices behind, even briefly: “It feels good to untether yourself because you don’t have it, so there’s nothing you can do.” — Mike Carruthers [13:52]
• Boredom resets the mind, improves creativity and problem-solving:
  • “Letting yourself... just drive without listening to music or a podcast... can actually be the most productive thing you do all day.” — Dr. Zelana Momini [14:15]

Music & Focus

• Slow, lyric-free music may help for deep work; lyrics compete with your brain’s language centers, lowering comprehension/retention:
  • “For tasks requiring cognitive load... silence does outperform music.” — Dr. Zelana Momini [15:54]

Non-Digital Distractions

• Visual clutter (desks, homes), unfinished mental tasks (“mental load”), and mind wandering also sabotage focus.
• “Visual chaos equals cognitive chaos.” — Dr. Zelana Momini [20:15]

Practical Strategies for Focus

• Closing Loops: Before deep work, take two minutes to clear visual clutter, write down stray tasks, and “close” open cognitive loops.
• Focus Blocks: Work in contained, intentional periods with true breaks (not social media scrolling).
• Write Distractions Down: When a stray thought (like groceries) interrupts, jot it down and return to deep work instead of following the thread.

Regaining Control

• Focus is “an act of essentially rebellion... to say, you know what? I’m not going to do this anymore.” — Dr. Zelana Momini [27:26]
• “When we silence our phones and our notifications, if it is urgent, they will find you. And if it’s not, it can wait.” — Dr. Zelana Momini [23:19]
• Internalized urgency is mostly manufactured by our tech habits and can be resisted.

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3. Unlocking Emotional Intelligence

Guest: Mark Brackett, Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence
[29:20 – 50:20]

Understanding Emotions

• Emotions encompass the “full gamut of human feelings and emotions and moods.” — Mark Brackett [30:34]
• Most people oversimplify: “Happy, sad, anger, fear...” but there are precise gradations (e.g., peeved vs. enraged).

Emotions vs. Appraisals

• It’s not the situation, but “how you appraise what happened” that determines the emotion.
• Example: Three people on a roller coaster can feel scared, bored, or thrilled — it depends on their appraisal.
  — Mark Brackett [31:35]

Emotional Granularity

• “Upset is a terrible word... because it means nothing.” — Mark Brackett [33:39]
• The more specific we can be about emotions (e.g., anger = perceived injustice, disappointment = unmet expectation), the better we can communicate, understand, and support each other.

Emotion Regulation & “Mental Time Travel”

• “There’s a great strategy that’s called mental time travel. In that moment you take a deep breath and you ask yourself is this really going to mean anything to me tomorrow or the next day or next month?” — Mark Brackett [35:49]
• Pause and assess intensity: sometimes let go, sometimes address the issue. Overusing suppression leads to resentment, especially in close relationships.

Courage in Expression

• It takes courage to talk about upsetting feelings, especially with people close to us.
• Many avoid it out of fear (“I’m not going to bring it up for fear of the reaction...”), leading to accumulating resentment. — Mike Carruthers & Mark Brackett [38:21]

Practical Scripts for Difficult Conversations

• Express need and make a specific request:
  • “When you were doing that interview with me... it made me a little bit uncomfortable. Next time, if you see that little signal, just give me some space so I can figure out how to answer the question. Is that okay?” — Mark Brackett [40:22]

Emotion Co-Regulation

• “No one should ever worry alone. We are social creatures...” — Mark Brackett [44:41]
• Being around calm or dysregulated people impacts our own nervous system (“co-regulation”). We can help others regulate by presence, empathy, and gentle coaching.
• Example: Reminding a friend why she left an unhealthy relationship, helping her sanity-check her current thoughts. [46:02]

Roots of Emotional Habits

• Family narratives (e.g., “everything is a ripoff”) can become default mindsets, but awareness brings choice:
  • “I realized, oh crap, I’ve become my father... that awareness now is an opportunity for me to say, do I want to be like my father?” — Mark Brackett [48:35]
• Building and maintaining healthy emotional habits takes effort, self-awareness, and intention.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Focus to me is both sort of an act of survival and also an act of meaning making.”
  — Dr. Zelana Momini [06:38]
• “Our default setting now as humans is distraction.”
  — Dr. Zelana Momini [13:52]
• “Every open tab or pile on your desk or whatever it is, every notification is an open loop in your brain.”
  — Dr. Zelana Momini [20:15]
• “The more granular we can help people get about how they feel, the better able we’re going to support them.”
  — Mark Brackett [33:39]
• “There’s a great strategy that’s called mental time travel... is this really going to mean anything to me tomorrow or the next day or next month?”
  — Mark Brackett [35:49]
• “No one should ever worry alone. We are social creatures.”
  — Mark Brackett [44:41]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|-------------| | 03:57–06:23 | Hormones & Cheating | | 06:25–12:16 | Dr. Momini – What Focus Means & The State of Distraction | | 13:52–15:37 | The Power of Boredom & Healthy Breaks | | 20:15–22:25 | Non-Digital Distractions, Clutter, and Visual Noise | | 25:51–27:48 | Distraction vs. True Rest, Power Over Attention | | 29:20–31:35 | Mark Brackett – Emotions, Definitions, & Appraisal | | 33:39–35:49 | The Importance of Emotional Granularity | | 36:35–38:21 | Emotional Regulation: Letting Go vs. Addressing | | 40:22–41:51 | Scripts for Difficult Conversations | | 44:41–46:02 | Emotion Co-Regulation in Relationships | | 48:35–49:52 | Recognizing & Changing Emotional Inheritance |

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Summary Takeaways

• Regaining Focus Means Rewiring Habits: Taking intentional pauses, clearing distractions, and redefining your relationship with technology are key to restoring attention.
• Distraction Is Engineered: Understanding the economic and psychological systems at play makes it easier to reclaim your focus as an “act of rebellion.”
• Emotions Are Complex, Nuanced, and Manageable: The richness of feeling can be better harnessed through specific language, brave conversations, and mindfulness techniques such as “mental time travel.”
• Regulation Is a Social Process: We don’t manage our emotions (or focus) in isolation—relationships, environment, and self-awareness are all intertwined.
• Cultural Patterns Are Changeable: With effort and self-reflection, even inherited emotional habits can be re-examined and adjusted.

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For further reading:

• Finding Own youn Attention in an Age of Distraction by Dr. Zelana Momini
• Dealing with Feeling: Use Your Emotions to Create the Life You Want by Mark Brackett

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This summary captures the heart and nuance of the conversation, highlighting practical wisdom and memorable exchanges. If you’re looking to rethink how you handle distraction or get more out of your emotions, this episode is rich with relatable stories and actionable tips.

Transcript

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know why people cheat even though they know it's wrong. Then how to kill distractions and improve your focus. And a lot of things are distracting you.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Cluttered spaces all tax the brain's attentional system so visual chaos equals cognitive chaos. And notifications beyond phones like smart watches, slack pings, email pop ups. All of this spikes cortisol and fractures focus.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also a very weird difference between Republicans and Democrats that no one can explain and proven ways to better regulate your emotions.

[Mark Brackett]

There's a great strategy that's called mental time travel. In that moment you take a deep breath and you ask yourself is this really going to mean anything to me tomorrow or the next day or next month? And then if you can say no to that and you let it go like why are you wasting your time getting angry about this? This is ridiculous.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Mark Brackett]

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today.

[Mike Carruthers]

Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. So when people cheat on a test or in their relationship, usually they know it's wrong. So why do they do it? That's what we're going to start with today. Hi and welcome to this episode of Something you should know. We all know that cheating is wrong, but people do it anyway. So why is that? Well, it appears that hormones have a lot to do with it. Research from Harvard and the University of Texas suggests that higher levels of two hormones in our body, testosterone and cortisol, encourage cheating and other unethical behavior. The male hormone testosterone gives people the courage to cheat and and the stress hormone cortisol gives them a reason to cheat. Elevated testosterone decreases the fear of punishment, while increasing sensitivity to reward. And elevated cortisol is linked to an uncomfortable state of chronic stress that can be extremely debilitating. And the study showed that cheating lowers levels of cortisol and reduces the emotional stress, suggesting that cheating is in itself a form of stress relief that can lead to more cheating in the future. The takeaway message from the research is that appealing to someone's morality is not going to be an effective way to stop cheating. Reducing cortisol levels can be effective in reducing cheating because it removes the motivation, but that requires lowering a person's stress levels through yoga, meditation or exercise. And that is something you should know. Focus. It's one of those words you hear all the stay focused, pay attention. You need more focus. But nobody ever really explains what focus actually is or why it's so hard to hold onto. Is distraction the real enemy of focus, or is there something deeper going on? Here to clear it up is Dr. Zelana Momini. She's a behavioral scientist and author of the book Finding Own youn Attention in an Age of Distraction. Hi, Zelana. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So that word focus gets tossed around a lot. Everybody needs to focus. You need to focus. You really, you know, you're not focused. You need to focus. But what is focus? What does that term mean to you?

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

The general definition comes down to sort of mental concentration and clarity of vision. But for me, there's a bit of a deeper meaning, that it's not just about discipline, but it's about deciding what matters most and shaping your life around that. So in this noisy, distracting world, focus, to me is both sort of an act of survival and also an act of meaning making. You know, it really is more about choosing what matters in a world that demands everything of you and then working your life and your schedule around that.

[Mike Carruthers]

So do you think that people are very concerned about this? I mean, are people running around saying, I just need more focus. I don't know where it went. I don't know how to find it. Is this a problem that people identify with, or is this something you see in other people?

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

That's a great question. I think that people don't understand where the pervasive burnout and anxiety comes from. I think that people are living in a perpetual state of distraction that keeps our nervous system on high alert. And I think everyone, most of us, in fact, feel more anxious and restless and less satisfied. And I think most of that comes from the fact that our attention is divided. And when our attention is divided, our connections weakened to our children, our partners, our colleagues, and ourselves. And I think that this is on a cultural scale. I think we are living in an age of depletion and that it's not just an individual issue. But I think that so many people just don't understand where, you know, all of their discontent comes from. And so much of it comes from just this attention extraction economy.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I love that, that we're living in a perpetual state of distraction. And I think most people know, I mean, and you can certainly see it, anybody can see it when you see people on their phones all the time and they put the phone down and they go do something, but 30 seconds later they're back on their phone. And I mean, that is a perpetual state of distraction. People know it, but it doesn't seem to Help them stop it, right?

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Because our brain is going to go to what is easiest and what feels good consistently. And we have trained it as a culture to expect the quick dopamine hits and to expect the distraction and the task switching. So we have essentially trained ourselves to seek out distraction. We also are extremely uncomfortable with those hard conversations that we know we need to have with others and ourselves. And so we use our devices and our schedules, we stay busy as a pacifier to soothe us so we don't have to confront what we actually really need to.

[Mike Carruthers]

So here's an example that I find really interesting. If you go to a gym, as I go to a gym, you'll watch people and they'll do their exercises. They'll be on a machine and they'll do their bicep curls or whatever, and as soon as they're done with a set, they pick up their phone and they do whatever they do on their phone and they put it down and they do another set, and then they pick up their phone and they. And they can't not look at their phone between the sets that they do. Now, I don't know if that's a distraction because all they're doing is bicep curl. So it's not like the phone is really keeping them from doing what they do. But I do find it interesting that. What do they think? And I'm guilty of this, too. I mean, I'm not saying I'm so great, but what is it they think is going to appear on the phone that wasn't there 30 seconds ago?

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

We've conditioned ourselves to grab our phones any moment of downtime, and it's almost like we're, you know, the phone spikes your nervous system. The moment you check anything, notifications, whatever it is, your brain shifts into this, like, threat and reward mode. So every ping or scroll or notification cues our system, our dopamine, right? Our pleasure centers surge. And actually what they're doing at the gym and what we all do is undoing some of the recovery you've just earned by exercising. Because movement actually floods your body with. With the natural reset hormones that we need. So while exercise is clearing your mind, you're picking up your phone and you're flooding your mind again, filling those open spaces with other people's priorities before you even integrate your own sort of gains from. From the exercise and the stillness and the stretching and all of that. So it's a grab and scroll reflex. We're all in it. We have trained our brain that rest must be interrupted, which inevitably erodes our focus and our ability to feel restoration at all. So you're robbing yourself of the full return on the effort you just put in. But we all do it right and we're sort of, this is just how culturally how we're trained.

[Mike Carruthers]

But it didn't used to be that way. I remember a time when, you know, you could go to the gym and just work out and you didn't have a phone or you didn't have the tendency to use the phone. That was a quiet time for you to do what you do. And. But I never see people, almost never see people just relaxing.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Right, right. And that's why I talk about the attention economy. These tech platforms are designed to compete for our attention because your time on a screen is their product. So they're pushing notifications. There's this reward system. Every refresh, every thing brings something exciting or not or new, but it keeps you hooked. It's the same mechanism that drives slot machines. And we have not sort of integrated natural boundaries. Before, there used to be like these natural pauses in life where, you know, the TV show ended, you finished reading a book or a newspaper, you left the office. Now it never stops. Our feeds, our messaging systems, we have not just texting now, but we have DMs, we have Slack, we have WhatsApp. Right? And that means there's no built in off switch. And we have also this cultural pressure to instantly respond, right? And so ignoring your phone is now socially risky, even if it's healthier. So what we're seeing now is that we need to retrain our habit loops. We need to start reinforcing these better habits. So knowing that the more you reach for your phone after workouts or meals or right before you go to bed or right when you wake up, you're strengthening these bad habits and your brain learns that you can get relief from scrolling instead of putting in the effort. So breaking that loop requires intentional pauses because our default setting now as humans is distraction.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know what I love doing sometimes is, is like going out and purposely leaving my phone at home. And it's a little anxiety provoking for a bit, but God, it feels good. It feels good to untether yourself because you don't have it, so there's nothing you can do. So just enjoy what you're doing.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Yes, yes. And you know, we don't talk about boredom enough as sort of an antidote to this insanely frenetic pace that we live in, but it really is a reset button. And I know it's so uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable to even go for a walk without having. I mean, I don't see people really walking without EarPods these days, and that's such an issue. But allowing yourself that that space, leaving your phone at home, even just for a few minutes without inputs, really resets these default mode networks that I'm talking about and boosts creativity. Memory problem solving helps your brain actually clean itself. So letting yourself, you know, just drive without listening to music or a podcast, for example, and stare out the window can actually be the most productive thing you do all day. We don't do it enough.

[Mike Carruthers]

Unless it's this podcast. Then, of course, yes, we have an exemption from the distraction police that it's okay. This one's okay.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Podcasts are amazing and such an awesome tool, and I absolutely love them. But give yourself windows to listen. You know what I mean? I mean, just don't do things by default. Be more attuned to your choices. If you are going to listen to a podcast, which I highly, highly value, do so. But also make sure you're getting chunks of time where you're not flooding your brain with content and input.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, speaking of exemptions, do you cut out an exemption for music? Because it seems that music can be very helpful and soothing and, and distracting in a good way where it doesn't require you to do anything. It's just enjoyment.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

I think tempo definitely what we're seeing in the research, that tempo influences alertness. Slower, more instrumental tracks are better for deep thinking and creative work and focus. And if you want to up, you know, your energy and motivation for more physical, repetitive tasks like data entry, for example, or cleaning or whatever, you know, like that you. You up the tempo, right? But the more important thing to remember is that lyrics compete with language. So if you are doing any focused work that requires, you know, your brain and emails, reading, studying, whatever it is, if you are listening to something that involves words, it can interfere. The brain's language centers cannot multitask, so your comprehension and retention will inevitably drop. And I know you're not going to want to hear this, but for tasks requiring cognitive load, or working memory, or writing original work, solving tough problems, whatever it is, silence does outperform music.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Desktop clutter. Anything cluttery in your home or your office actually is a huge distraction. Internal interruptions, things that are, you know, these sudden urges that we get to check, emails, remembering that we need groceries, the mental load, mind wandering is a big culprit that people don't even realize is happening. And that can be incredibly distracting. So going back to messy desks and sort of your space, your space should really act as a vision board. So it should set the foundation of what you're trying to do in your life. And I call this visual noise. So if you have, you know, piles of laundry laying around or you're stacking pages and pages on your, you know, your office desk, cluttered spaces all tax the brain's attentional system. So visual chaos equals cognitive chaos. That's just the way our brain functions. So that's really important to understand. And notifications beyond phones, like smartwatches, Slack pings, email pop ups, fitness reminders, all of this spikes cortisol and fractures focus. So the way in which we control these hidden sort of focus killers is we close loops. So every. Every open tab or pile on your desk or whatever it is, every notification is an open loop in your brain. And before you start deep work or want to focus, just do two minutes of closing loops, writing down three things you have to do or get back to, or clear your visual fields, close extra tabs, put papers away, you know, just close those loops. And then, you know, I really believe in giving yourself focus blocks. So you can't. We can't always be focused, right? So we have to set task containers. We give ourselves focused blocks with clear breaks so that your brain can handle intensity during those blocks. If we know that rest is coming or a regroup, but that regroup cannot include more content and more scrolling because that also taxes your brain. So you're not actually refreshing it.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know what? I love what you said about there is this sense that you have to be available in case something important happens. It's up to you to be reachable. But as you just pointed out, if it's really urgent, if someone's dying, if people will find you. I mean, I was just thinking, like, you know, I turn off stuff when I'm doing interviews and nobody can interrupt this. It's impossible for anyone to interrupt this. Yes, but if something happened, if my wife had to get ahold of me because she was, you know, God forbid, in a car accident or something, well, she'd probably call my son, who's two rooms away from me, and he would walk in and say there would be a way to find me if it really, really is important. And I think that's true for everybody.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

It really is. And we have completely forgotten that. And not only that, but others who are in our lives don't want to have to do the extra steps it takes to get a hold of. So you know what I mean, to get a hold of us being perpetually reachable. We're just in a state of constant elevated cortisol levels, which reduces our working memory, makes us less creative and effic, and the pressure to always be available makes us worse at the very work we're actually trying to do and the connections we're trying to cultivate with each other. So we have to trust the system. When we silence our phones and our notifications, if it is urgent, they will find you. And if it's not, it can wait.

[Mike Carruthers]

And even if it is urgent, few things are so urgent that it can't wait till you turn your notifications back on. I mean, most things aren't as urgent as people think they are, 100%.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Like I said, we've been conditioned to believe we must reply instantly to everything. And that sense of obligation completely hijacks our nervous system and keeps us in this low, low grade sort of fight or flight. And that, honestly, is why even after all the hacks we're doing and all the wellness tricks and all the connections we have, on the surface, we are all really tired and exhausted and overwhelmed.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I like what you said about, you know, when somebody has to get ahold of me or somebody has to get ahold of you, they'll send a text and then they'll say, I texted her and she didn't get back to me. And that was the extent of trying to get ahold of you.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Right.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that ain't much of an effort. I mean, that's really. There's a lot of other ways to probably get ahold of you if it really, really mattered. But one text and it's like, well, just not available.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

Well, people aren't willing to do the work.

[Mike Carruthers]

I want to go back to something you said earlier and help me untangle this because you had said, like, you're working and you're focused and all of a sudden you'd think, oh, I better go check the grocery list and what we need to get at the store. And I do that sometimes, but sometimes I think what I'm doing is I'm taking a break. I'm taking a break and I'm going to go do that for a few minutes and then I'll come back to this. But it could also be just a way of distracting myself. And I don't know which one it is. Probably it could wait. But what about that? When is a distraction a break, not a distraction?

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

So that is an interruption. It's not restorative. Switching to your list, internally or externally, taxes the brain in the same way as checking email does. It pulls you out of whatever you're doing. And then it takes up to the research shows about 23 minutes to refocus on whatever else you were doing. That's why multitasking just never works, even though we think we're all really good at it. A real break is something that resets attention. A walk, a stretch, a sip of water, even honestly just looking away from staring out the window. Internal task switching is not rest. So instead, when a thought like that pops up or an interruption, you can externalize it by keeping a notepad nearby. When the grocery list thought pops up, jot it down, tells your brain it's safe to let it go. You know you'll get back to it. Return quickly to what you were doing. Do not follow the thread like scrolling instacart, meal planning, et cetera. Capture it, write it down, then jump back into whatever you were doing.

[Mike Carruthers]

So here's the thing though. I'm listening to you and I've never heard anybody explain this as well as you do. I mean, this is. You're. It's very compelling to hear you talk, yet 99.9% of people who are hearing this and probably agree that you're very well spoken, that you make a lot of sense. I really should do what she's saying will never do it because the push, the pressure to keep your phone in front of your face and keep your tabs open. And your notifications on whether internal or external is just too strong.

[Dr. Zelana Momini]

It's true. I want you to regain your power over yourself and your life. We have totally given it away. And so focus is an act of essentially rebellion. It's like an act of resistance to say, you know what? I'm not going to do this anymore.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I appreciate your perspective on this because I think we're all stuck on that hamster wheel of distraction. And it's good to know there are some things we can do to, you know, to step off and regain control. I've been speaking with Ze Lana Momini. She is a behavioral scientist and author of the book Finding Own youn Attention in an Age of Distraction. And there's a link to that book in the show notes you chose to.

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[Dr. Zelana Momini]

So good, so good, so good.

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[Mike Carruthers]

Emotions. They can be our greatest strength or our biggest obstacle. We're constantly told to express your emotions, control your emotions, be smarter about them, use your emotional intelligence. But let's be honest, most of us are still fumbling in the dark when it comes to really understanding our feelings and and using them to our advantage. Fortunately, my guest today has devoted his career to this very problem. Mark Brackett is the founding director of the Yale center for Emotional Intelligence and a professor at Yale's Child Study Center. His insights have been featured everywhere from the New York Times to Good Morning America and the Today show. And he's author of a book called Dealing with Feeling. Use your emotions to create the life you want. Hi Mark. Great to have you.

[Mark Brackett]

Thank you for having me, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

So when I hear the words emotion or feelings, I think about things like anger, fear, jealousy, disgust. You know, the normal things you think about when you think of the word emotions. Is that what you mean when you're talking about emotions?

[Mark Brackett]

What I mean about emotions is the full gamut of human feelings and emotions and moods. So you know, we have tools to help people become more emotionally self aware. For example, we have an app called How we feel that has 144 emotions built into it. So I think most people simplify it. Happy, sad, anger, fear, surprise, disgust. Whereas you know, they're gradations. You can be peeved, angry or enraged. You could be down, disappointed, devastated, hopeless, or full of despair. Just like you can be pleased, happy or elated or ecstatic.

[Mike Carruthers]

But my sense Is. Or I think for a lot of people, the sense is that those things happen to you, that situations determine which emotions pop up in that circumstance, that you don't have a whole lot of control over it. When somebody hits your car, you get emotional, and there you are. I mean, that's just how it works. And people get different emotions when that happens.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, you made a good point there. People get different emotions. So it's not what happened, it's how you appraise what happened. I always give an example. Let's say you and I and another friend are on a roller coaster ride, and we're at the top of, you know, the roller coaster. And you're thinking, oh, my God, I'm going to die. And I'm thinking, this is freaking boring. And the other person is saying, this is the best time of my life. We're all three sitting on a roller coaster, but all three of us are experiencing different emotions. So it's not the roller coaster. It's our appraisal of what that roller coaster means to us.

[Mike Carruthers]

But because everybody in that situation is feeling different emotions, it seems like it's a difficult topic to generalize about because everybody's different.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, everybody's different, but we need a common language so that we are clear about what the heck we're talking about. So if I were to say, Mike, what's the psychological difference between disappointment and anger? So disappointment is about an unmet expectation. Everything is legit. I thought it was going to work out the way I intended it to, and it didn't. Okay, I am disappointed. Anger is about perceived injustice. Like, what you said was not cool. Like, how could you. That was. That was unfair. Does that help clarify?

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. No, Those are perfect definitions.

[Mark Brackett]

So if we can define disappointment as an unmet expectation and anger as a perceived injustice, then we can communicate clearly with each other. A parent can understand their child's experience better. Two partners in a relationship can understand each other better. And that's the goal of this work.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that's really interesting because I've never thought of it that way, and I don't think anybody does. And when you think about when your kid's upset, you don't think that way, but that certainly makes a lot of sense to think that way.

[Mark Brackett]

And upset is a terrible word, just so you know, because it means nothing. I'm upset. What does that mean? You're frustrated? Are you angry? Are you disappointed? Who knows? And so the more granular we can help people get about how they feel, the better able we're Going to support them.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, everybody, I certainly have experienced this, that you can be angry or upset or however you define it and realize that as you were talking about before the next morning, you're not so angry anymore. And that had you blown up at the time, it could have caused a much bigger problem. And by, by thinking about it a little bit and letting some time pass, you know, you put it in a perspective that's like, you know, it just wasn't that big a deal.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, now you're getting into emotion regulation, which is, you know, what I've been writing about these days. And so sometimes I don't know about you, but, like, I'm. I grew up in a. In a family where everything was a rip off, but my father was like, that's a rip off. And I now, at 55, think everything is a ripoff. So if my family and I go shopping, I'm like, you got to be kidding me. And so that's who I am. And then I have to pause and take a deep breath and say, mark, is this really going to, like, make you bankrupt? Mark, is this really that important to have a fight over right now? Sometimes it's yes and sometimes it's no. And so that's the point of kind of pausing to check in with your feelings to decide, is this a strong, unpleasant feeling like you were saying, that the next day you might feel less angry? Well, it all depends on what it was. If it was the stupid thing at the grocery store that you thought was too expensive. You know what, Mark? Let it go. You got bigger things to worry about in life. But if someone was really mean or cruel to you and you like to go to that grocery store, but the cashier was a real jerk, you might have to do some problem solving about it. You might want to call the manager and have a conversation, or you might.

[Mike Carruthers]

Just want to let it go.

[Mark Brackett]

You might. It depends. It all depends on the importance these things are. The importance of these things for you. But think about it. How many of us have been in romantic relationships where we kind of let these things go and then they accumulate and then we have resentment?

[Mike Carruthers]

Yep, everybody's had that. There's also more in line with the cashier at the store rather than a relationship for life, that it was important at the time. And in a week from now, you're not even thinking. You don't even barely remember it. It's like it was so important then, and you got very emotional. And now it's like, oh, yeah, I kind of remember that.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, what you're getting at, though, is the regulation strategy. So in that moment, do you have the skill set to regulate your emotions? And what I mean by that is, you know that there's a great strategy that's called mental time travel. And that in that moment, you take a deep breath and you ask yourself, mark, is this really going to mean anything to me tomorrow or the next day or next month? And then if you can say no to that, then you let it go. If you're like, you know, sometimes it's really strong, right. And you say, you know what? I'm holding on to this one, and I'm going for the jugular. We tend to regret that, too. So the better we are, you know, in engaging kind of time travel to realize that the little things are just. Just like, why are you wasting your time getting angry about this? This is ridiculous.

[Mike Carruthers]

But in a relationship, it's very easy when things happen to say, oh, it's just. It's not worth it. Just let it go. And then we're back to the problem you just mentioned of. It builds on top of each other, and then you get. Then you get resentful.

[Mark Brackett]

Correct. And that's why, you know, not every strategy, you can't use that mental time travel 55 times in one weekend with your partner. Then it's like, you know. Exactly. You go crazy. And so at that moment, you got to be like, all right, honey, this is not working out. We got to talk about it. And that's also having courage, because that's where I think, now that we're talking about romantic relationships, where I think people struggle, it's like, oh, my gosh, I'm afraid to tell my significant other how I'm really feeling about what they did because, oh, they're going to get upset and they're going to be mad at me, or they're like, they're not going to handle it. And that just makes the case for why we need a more emotionally intelligent society, from my perspective.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it seems that in an awful lot of cases, what you just said is the case. I'm not going to bring it up for fear of the reaction. They're going to get upset, it's going to turn into a fight, it's going to damage the relationship, and it's just not worth it.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. And by the way, this is not just in romantic relationships. This happens in the workplace. I'm sure you've seen this. Friendship, friendships everywhere. People are afraid to talk about their feelings even when they know they have them. They're it's like, I'm not going to be able to handle their response. They're not going to be handled. They're not going to be able to handle what I tell them. And I mean, think about the conflict we have in our society right now. You can look at the data. The number one challenge that kindergarten teachers are facing is dysregulated kids. I mean, anxiety, depression, loneliness are at all time highs. And in my view, this is all because people haven't learned how to deal with their feelings.

[Mike Carruthers]

So if I were to say to you, you know, I want to say something to this person, but I'm afraid of their reaction, your advice would be what?

[Mark Brackett]

Well, a, you want to craft it in a way that is not going to activate them to retaliate, you know, and so that's the, that's the nuance of the training that we do. And you know, both in schools and in workplaces, when we teach people how to talk about feeling, how to manage emotions effectively, because it's all goal oriented. Like, if your goal is, I want to keep this relationship, I love this person, but I need to talk to them about the things that they're doing that are not working for our relationship, you got to know how to do that in a way that, you know, moves things forward and doesn't keep things, you know, stuck.

[Mike Carruthers]

So pick an example and tell me how, how we're, like, how that conversation would go.

[Mark Brackett]

Okay. You know, Mike, I'm going to use you as an example, just as a joke. You know, when you were doing that interview with me and you kind of put that pressure on me and put that pressure on me and put that pressure on me, it just really caught me off guard and it made me a little bit uncomfortable. And I was trying to give you a little signal, like to move on, but you didn't. And so the next time, like if you, if you see that little signal, just give me some space so I can figure out how to answer the question. Is that okay?

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. Yeah. And. But interestingly in there, you made a request. You had an option, you gave an option. Rather than just say how upset you were or what was bothering you, you said, and then let's do this.

[Mark Brackett]

I expressed my need. And so my need was that I'm the type of guy, and by the way, I'm making this all up right now, but I'm the type of guy that gets overwhelmed by really fast questions and I have a processing speed that needs space to like, figure it out. And so, you know, when we're in meetings together, you know, with the team, when you put that heavy pressure on, it just freaks me out a little bit. And I know I have the answer, but I need a little more time than other people do. So if you don't mind, just, you know, maybe give me the question in advance or say, you know, Mark wanted to give me your response a little bit later. And I promise you it's going to be the response you want to hear, but I just need a little bit more space.

[Mike Carruthers]

Would be hard to argue with that.

[Mark Brackett]

That's my opinion too.

[Mike Carruthers]

So do you ever have arguments? Do you ever, do you ever lose it?

[Mark Brackett]

Of course, all the time. I mean, actually it's really funny because I opened this new book of mine with a story about my mother in law because here I was the, you know, one of the quote unquote world's leaders in emotional intelligence. My mother in law moved in because of the pandemic, not because we invited her, but because she is from the country of Panama, came to Visit us on March 5th of 2020 and wasn't able to go home because all flights to Panama were canceled for seven months. It was ridiculous. And there was one night, you know, she was, you know, it was getting messy in our house and she looked at me and she goes, are you really the director of the center for Emotional Intelligence? And I'm like, not tonight, lady, not tonight. And it was like a mess. And I say that because here I was like, I have all the knowledge, I've done all the research, I've written the articles and the books, but yet I was incapable of managing my anger and frustration.

[Mike Carruthers]

Why?

[Mark Brackett]

Because I think it was a combination of things. It was like, I'm not used to working from home. I'm not used to my mother in law staring at me every morning for breakfast. I'm not used to having to make extra meals and dealing with her stuff. And then it was just a lot of pressure. But the truth is I am the freaking director of the center for Emotional Intelligence. And the truth is I do know strategies. And the other truth is I needed to actually implement them better. And so my point of telling you the story is that, you know, I went to bed that night, I was very upset with myself. I'm like, here's this poor 81 year old lady displaced for 7 months out of her, you know, once she want to be with you either she wants to go home, but it was all about me. Like, I'm upset and you're in my house. And it was kind of Crazy. And as I walked down the stairs the next morning, I took a deep breath and I'm like, Mark, how would the best version of you show up as a son in law this morning at breakfast? Like, how do you want to be seen? How do you want to be talked about? How do you want to be experienced by your mother in law? And it was like an epiphany for me in terms of how selfish I had been and how non other oriented I was and caring about her feelings and her loneliness and her frustration. And as soon as I became curious about her, our entire relationship changed.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is what you're talking about this handling our emotions better? Is this something that you can help other people do with their emotions? Or is this everybody's individual? You got to work on your own and, and everybody else has to work on their own.

[Mark Brackett]

I always tell people no one should ever worry alone. We are social creatures and so in the work that I do, we talk about emotion self regulation, but then we also talk about emotion co regulation. So I mean, to be honest with you, just the way we approach people, the facial expressions that we have, the vocal tone that we use, the energy that we exude, is a form of healthy regulation. Let me ask you this, is there anyone in your life that just being around them kind of makes you feel more at ease?

[Mike Carruthers]

Sure, yes, of course.

[Mark Brackett]

And so they are in, in essence co regulating your nervous system. Because how many have you ever worked with someone or lived with someone that when you're around them you feel like you have to walk on eggshells and you have to be careful about what you say?

[Mike Carruthers]

Absolutely.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah, exactly. So that's a form of regulation, just surrounding yourself with people that put you at ease as opposed to people who kind of make you all tense.

[Mike Carruthers]

But if you're around somebody that's hard to deal with and you have to walk on eggshells, is there anything you can do to, to ease the tension or that's just their problem?

[Mark Brackett]

Of course there's things you can do a you can just be transparent about how you're feeling in a way that helps them see how what they're doing might be making you uncomfortable. Just like I did earlier with you in this conversation. You know, in that example, the same thing can apply to anyone and I think even more so. This is helpful for. I had a friend, for example. This is a good example going back to relationships. I had a good friend who went through a really horrific divorce. And you know, the husband was a narcissist and you know, really was unkind to her. And she called me one day because she was lonely, and she goes, mark, I don't know. This loneliness is killing me. And I almost would rather be back, you know, with my ex husband than be alone right now. And I knew from what I had seen in her relationship, that would be the worst decision ever. I couldn't tell her that. I'm like, are you kidding me? That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Because that's not healthy co regulation. But what I did do is I said, you know, can you remind me why you got the divorce? And she, like, in like a minute, like, 10 things came out of her. I said, well, maybe you forgot about those things, you know, and that now that you've been, you know, away from it a little bit and, you know, in with your loneliness, but just take a moment and remember the reason why, you know, you left. And she's like, oh, my gosh, like, I would never go back to him. That's the worst idea ever. Like, I really need to figure out how to, you know, fill my time better, because when I'm lonely, I'm just sitting around ruminating. And I said, yeah, so let's figure out what to do at that time. But it's certainly, from what you're telling me, not, you know, the answer is not going back. Do you see how, like, it's. It's not therapy. It's kind of being a good friend that helps people think critically and kind of a little bit of coaching.

[Mike Carruthers]

You said something earlier I wanted to ask you about. You said that you grew up in a house where your father said everything's a ripoff. And so that's who you are. How did you let that become who you are? How does that work? And here's what I guess, I mean, I know people who said, you know, my father growing up was this way, and that's why I'm that way, or my father. I grew up when my father was this way. So I made it my life's work to be just the opposite.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah, I am working towards that. It's my life's work. So my point in saying that was that I grew up with a father who said everything was a ripoff. And that became kind of my narrative. I wasn't aware that was my narrative until I got, you know, triggered at the grocery store. And so then I realized, oh, crap, I've become my father. And so that awareness now is an opportunity for me to say, do I want to be like my father? The answer is no. Do I think some things are ridiculously expensive and I don't want to waste money on it? Yes. Do I want to communicate that every single time my partner wants to buy something? No. So it's just, it's awareness building and I think that's the first step in any of this is to be aware of what am I feeling, why am I feeling that way? Is this feeling helpful or unhelpful right now? And if it's unhelpful, what can I do about it? You know, it's effortful. And I think that's the issue is that we haven't. The value proposition for society is not strong enough yet for people to take seriously how to build and maintain healthy relationships and the role of emotion regulation in them.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, since most of us don't really talk about this topic and don't talk about talking about our emotions very much, it's really helpful, I think, and interesting to get your insight into it. Mark Brackett has been my guest. He is the founding director of the Yale center for Emotional Intelligence and he's author of the book dealing with Use youe Emotions to Create the Life youe Want. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Thank you so much, Mark.

[Mark Brackett]

Mike, this is great. Thanks so much.

[Mike Carruthers]

So this is really strange and inexplicable, but fascinating nonetheless. How your brain responds when you look at a photograph can accurately predict whether you are liberal or conservative. I know that sounds really strange, but here's what happened. Researchers took MRI brain images of people while they passively looked at a series of disgusting, pleasant and neutral images. They also determined in advance whether people were politically liberal or conservative. And what they found in particular was that disgusting images and the mutilated body of an animal especially generated brain responses that were highly predictive of a political orientation. In fact, a single disgusting image was sufficient to predict each subject's political orientation accurately. Now, it's not clear. No one really knows why this is. It's not clear from the study exactly how or why liberal versus conservative brains differ from each other in that way. But they do and they do without exception. And that is something you should know. I'd love it if you would add your voice to the chorus of people who leave ratings and reviews about this podcast. On whatever platform you listen on, there's usually a very easy way to do it. A few words and a five star rating would be appreciated when you have a moment. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thank you for listening today to something you should know and Doug.

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