Tina Seelig (5:25)

Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here.

Mike Carruthers (5:28)

So define luck for me from your perspective because I think different people think luck is different things. So what is luck to you?

Tina Seelig (5:37)

This is really a perfect place to start. First of all, the definition of luck is success or failure apparently caused by chance. And the most interesting thing there is the word apparently. And that's What I've been really diving into is that what is actually behind the curtain when people are lucky, what are the things they've actually done? So that's one piece of the puzzle. The other thing that's very important to get set at the beginning is that there's a very big difference between fortune and luck. Fortune is things that happen to you. Luck is something that you have some agency over. So you don't control who your parents are or what the weather is today or whether there's a pandemic. But you do control whether you say hello to the person standing next to you in line and open up a whole world of possibilities. So there's a big difference.

Mike Carruthers (6:28)

Yeah, yeah. Well, one is just pure chance and one is something else.

Tina Seelig (6:34)

Well, chance is also interesting. There's a big difference between chance and gambling. Right. If I buy a lottery ticket, that's gambling, I have no control over the outcome. But if I play poker, that's a game of chance, I could actually get better at it. So I think it's very important to distinguish between the two, just as a difference between fortune and luck. Because if you take a chance and throw your hat in the ring for a new job, you can really set yourself up to be much more successful if you're really well prepared and you go about it the right way.

Mike Carruthers (7:06)

Well, I mean, you sort of. I mean, you can't win the lottery unless you play, but you still.

Tina Seelig (7:11)

You're right.

Mike Carruthers (7:11)

But you probably can't win either, even if you do play. But you can never win if you don't play.

Tina Seelig (7:18)

Exactly. You can gamble and you can't win unless you play, but you can't affect the outcome. But with something that's a game of chance or taking a chance. If I take a chance and. And asking someone out on a date the way I do, it changes the outcome. Right. If I'm polite and I'm dressed nicely and I approach someone in the right way, it's much more likely that they're going to say yes to me, even though I've taken a chance.

Mike Carruthers (7:51)

Well, there's that. That old saying, and it's mixing up your definitions a little bit, but fortune favors the bold.

Tina Seelig (7:59)

And, oh, I just love you brought that up. Okay. Whenever I tell people that I'm writing a book and doing research on Locke, they say, oh, yes, yes. Fortune favors the prepared mind. Usually that or fortune favors the bold. And one of the things I always question is, okay, so what is a prepared mind? Just like people often say, oh, yes, yes. The harder I work, the luckier I get. Well, the question becomes, what is that hard work? So that's what I've been trying to unpack. Both the apparently in the luck is apparently caused by chance. What is a prepared mind? And also what is the hard work? So essentially trying to figure out the physics of luck, you know, what actually is going on behind the scenes for people who are luckier than others.

Mike Carruthers (8:50)

And in broad sweeping strokes here, what's the answer to that question?

Tina Seelig (8:54)

Oh, my gosh, there's so many things. So you have to start. The framework that I created is that luck is like the wind. Luck is ubiquitous. It's very powerful, but you often can't see it, and you wouldn't even know it was there unless you build a sail to catch it. And so how do you build a sail to catch the winds of luck? And there are three parts. There's the first part, which is you have to build your ship. That's the internal work, the prepared mind. There's recruiting your crew, because most luck comes through other people. And then there's hoisting the sail, which is the hard work.

Mike Carruthers (9:33)

But I know people that seem to be very lucky in the sense that they kind of breeze through life or seemingly breeze through life. Things kind of go their way, and they never seem to break a sweat. And then there are other people who seemingly work very hard and diligently and try very hard and don't get the breaks. And I wonder what the difference is between those people. Is it. Is it fortune or is it luck? Or what is it?

Tina Seelig (10:06)

It's a combination of the two. But let's think about. Let's look at the people who are really lucky. So much of what makes people lucky is things that you actually don't see up front. But if you pull back the curtain, you will see. You'll see the relationships that they're building. They're building trust, they're helping other people. They're showing appreciation. They're adding randomness to their life. They've become very good at being resilient. They take some risks. 20 different things that they're doing. You may or may not see it. So can I tell you some. Some examples?

Simon Rogers (10:42)

Please.

Tina Seelig (10:43)

Okay. It's an example that is just so powerful because it's so provocative. I was in the grocery store with my young son. He was maybe five or six years old. And a man came up to me who was there with his young daughter, who was about the same age. And he said, could you explain to me how to make this lemonade he had a can of lemonade. So I said, yes, you know, one can of lemonade and three cans of water. And then he walked away. And I thought, that's sort of interesting. Most people sort of know how to make lemonade. They don't even put the instructions on the can because they assume you know what to do. So I got in line behind him at the grocery store, and I said, gee, you know, where. Where are you from? I don't recognize your accent. And he said, oh, I'm from Chile. I said, really? That's so interesting. What brings you here? And he said, well, I'm taking over my family's business, and I'm going to be. I'm here to learn about entrepreneurship. So I said, oh, I actually run the entrepreneurship center at Stanford School of Engineering. Here's my business card, if I can help you. Well, he did reach out to me and he said, you know, I'd like to meet some people maybe in the area. And I said, no problem. I made a few introductions. I actually sort of forgot about that. He then reached out to me again and said, I'm bringing a delegation from Chile. Would you like to be involved? I said, sure, I'd be happy to help out. That was the end of it. Two years later, I went to Chile to run a conference. And I reached out to him and I said, hey, Eduardo, would you like to meet for coffee? So when I came to meet with him, he said, oh, gosh, I just don't have time, but please bring a couple of your colleagues with you. I've got a treat for you. So we met at the lobby of his company, and we were taken up to the roof, picked up by his company's helicopter, given a ride around the entire city of Santiago, up to his family ski resort, and then back down again. Now, you could say, tina, you were just lucky, but you. Someone else didn't see all the things I did that led to that moment of getting this helicopter ride. It didn't just happen. It happened with my helping him immediately at the store, then following up, and then following up. I certainly didn't do those things because I wanted a helicopter ride. But if you're the sort of person who is helping other people and is putting yourself out there and following up with him. When I went to Chile, you end up with these opportunities that other people might say, oh, you're just lucky.

Mike Carruthers (13:16)

So luck comes as the result of effort, of doing something, not just sitting around waiting for lightning to strike.

Tina Seelig (13:24)

Exactly.

Mike Carruthers (13:25)

Do you think people don't get that Yes.

Tina Seelig (13:30)

I think a lot of people think the luck just happens, and some people are luckier than others. And what I'm trying to do is to show people the amount of agency they have in their lives to make the things they want come to life. I mean, this is my entire reason for living, is to help people make their dreams come true. And you only can do that if you know how, how the physics of luck actually works. Right? There is a cause and effect in the world.

Mike Carruthers (14:04)

So one of the things that seems clear to me is I understand that it takes effort, and you have to get out there and you have to interact with people, and sometimes nothing comes of it, probably more times than not. And sometimes things fall apart, and sometimes things fail. And then there are those people who dust off and get back up on the horse and those people who take that failure and crawl into a hole.

Tina Seelig (14:31)

Oh, my goodness, you're absolutely right.

Mike Carruthers (14:33)

That seems to be like the fulcrum of luck right there is you can either suck it up and move on and try again, or you can just say, see, I'm not very lucky.

Tina Seelig (14:49)

You're absolutely right. One of the key tools for someone who's lucky is resilience. Being able to, as you say, dust yourself off and get back up on the horse. When I go around with my students and I ask them, what is their mental model for failure? Like, what happens when you hit bottom? What is that made of? And people say, oh, it's burning lava or a black hole. You know, quicksand. And like, wow, if that was really the case, I could imagine you wouldn't want to try anything if you think that if you fail, you're going to end up in a black hole. Now, other students and other people I talk to say, oh, no, it's a trampoline or it's rubber or it's a swimming pool. I dive in and then come back up. And I invite people to think about where they got this message about what was going to happen when they fail. I mean, are you really going to die if you get a B on your exam? Are you really going to die if you ask someone on a date and they say, no, thank you. Are you really going to die if you apply for a job and you don't get it? No, of course not. So helping people rethink the consequences of failure or disappointment so that they're willing to take some more calculated risks?

Mike Carruthers (16:07)

Well, how do you do that?

Tina Seelig (16:09)

Well, one of the most important things is just understanding your risk profile. I have my students fill out a riskometer where they map out all the different types of risks that one could have. Social risk, emotional risk, financial risk, physical risk, intellectual risks. And then they map out what type of risk they feel comfortable taking and then seeing where their risk profile might be holding them back. Right. If I'm a very low physical risk taker, but I really, really want to go jump out of a perfectly good airplane with a parachute, I'm going to have to stretch because otherwise I'm not going to do it.

Mike Carruthers (16:49)

I want to talk about what you call recruit your crew and do that in just a moment. You know, I think a lot of people have this idea that starting a business is complicated. Like you need funding and a team and a five year plan. You really don't. What you actually need is a good idea and then a way not to get buried in all the stuff that comes after the good idea. Because that's where most people get stuck. Website, payments, shipping, marketing. It's a lot. And that's exactly what Shopify is built for. Shopify is the platform behind millions of businesses and about 10% of all e commerce in the U.S. brands like Mattel and Heinz as well as people just getting started. You can build a great looking store quickly with their templates. They've got AI tools that help write product descriptions and even improve your product photos and everything. Inventory, payments, marketing, analytics, all in one place. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify. Today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com sysk go to shopify.com sysk that's shopify.com sysk

Progressive Insurance Announcer (18:15)

insurance isn't one size fits all and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name youe Price Tool for years. With the Name youe Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they show you options that fit your budget enough. Hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy. Or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit progressive.com and give the Name your price tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Price and Coverage Match limited by state law

Mike Carruthers (19:09)

My guest is Tina Selig, and she's author of a book called what I Wish I Knew About Luck. So, Tina, going back to the gentleman from Chile with the helicopter you met at the grocery store. Most of the people I run into at the grocery store, nothing ever happens, and they don't have a helicopter. You know, it's.

Tina Seelig (19:31)

Oh, you might not know. Well, maybe they do.

Mike Carruthers (19:33)

Maybe they do, but.

Tina Seelig (19:35)

Or something that's like a helicopter. Maybe it's a business deal. Maybe it's a new friend. Maybe it's, you know, it's something else. I mean, I'm a deep believer that there's a prize in every room, and it's up to you to find it. And I think if you go through life with that mindset, that there is a prize. Maybe it's a little prize, you know, Maybe it's just a smile on your face when you say hello to someone, but maybe it's a big prize because every decision you make has the possibility of changing your life. Right. I could. I have so many friends who I met because they were standing in line next to me. I mean, I can tell you a story. I was standing in line on the way to get onto an airplane, and I had a backpack that had a logo on it for a conference. And there was a woman standing behind me, and she saw the logo. She said, oh, did you go to that conference? I said, yes. We started chatting in line and had such a nice conversation. We switched our seats to sit next to each other on the airplane. We talked for, you know, nonstop for five hours across the country. We stayed in touch, and I. She's now one of my best friends. I just heard from her this morning, you know, and. And we've collaborated on a whole number of projects that never would have happened if we hadn't said hello.

Mike Carruthers (20:56)

So here's something I'd like to get you to comment on, and that is, like, for example, I'm not big on networking things, networking events, because it always seems like. Well, not always. It often seems like people talk to me because they want to know what I can do for them. And it doesn't feel like people are really doing what you're talking about, which is, you know, helping people, giving back, you know, creating. It's more of a transactional, what can you do for me? I like your way better, but it's hard to find those interactions.

Tina Seelig (21:35)

Okay, Mike, I think you're onto something really important there. This is not transactional. This is about building authentic connections with people. I really don't like the word Networking and network. You have a community, and when you have a community, they are there to support you, thick or thin. And it is one of the most powerful things you can have in life is having a community, people that you can trust and support you when you need. Starts though, with helping other people. And the more you help other people, the more comes back to you. There is research that shows that if you do something even small for someone, you might even forget about it, but they remember your goodwill and the what comes back to you is often quite a bit bigger. Right. I help you with your math homework when we're in college, and later you help me find a job. And it actually works the opposite, Right. Luck is a long game. Because I'm going to ask you, have you ever had this situation where there's someone you know and they did something that was not very nice or something that was unseemly or treated you badly or didn't show appreciation, and then many years later you get a reference, call for them, or they ask for help, and you kind of do a double take and think, do I really want to. Am I going to give this person a good reference? Am I going to really help this person? Whereas if they had been someone who had been, you know, generous to you in the past without wanting anything in return, when it comes time for them to need something from you, you will be very generous in offering a fabulous recommendation or an opportunity. Do you agree with me?

Mike Carruthers (23:31)

Yeah. Oh, of course, yeah.

Tina Seelig (23:33)

Yeah, right. But people don't realize that, you know, I sometimes have someone in my life who does something that's really inappropriate. And the first thing I think is, wow, you made a big mistake. Because of course you could get away with that right now. But I am pretty sure that at some point in the future someone is going to ask someone on my team, someone's going to ask them for a reference for you. And everyone just saw this behavior. They're not, It's. They're not going to help you.

Mike Carruthers (24:08)

Can you give me a really simple example of an opportunity to create luck in your life that people tend to miss?

Tina Seelig (24:20)

Well, I'll give you just a simple example that I see all the time. I mean, I work at a university and I might bring in someone really fascinating to come and speak to the students. And that person would say at the end, you know, feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions or to reach out, you know, if you want my slides. Do you know how many people actually follow up? First of all, the most basic thing is to follow up and send a note and say, thank you very much for coming in. That was really insightful. I learned XYZ from you. That's the basics. You know how many people do that? Practically no one. So if you take the time to just say thank you and then you could follow up and say, guess what? I would love to have your slides or here's a follow up question or anything else.

Mike Carruthers (25:11)

But what's the intent here? Do you send the thank you note and ask for the slides because you really want them, or are you doing it to try to create a situation where luck will come your way, the connection will help you. What is the goal here?

Tina Seelig (25:31)

The goal is to reach the objectives you have. Right? If I want to start a company, if I want to write a book, if I want to have a family, I mean, whatever my goal is, there are things that I need to put in place to get to that goal. And all of these things require engaging other people. And there are things you do that make it more likely that you're going to reach that goal. And a lot of that, as you say, it looks like luck. But what I'm trying to unpack it and say, listen, there's actually a whole list of things that people who are lucky do to make it more likely that these positive things happen.

Mike Carruthers (26:12)

See, I think when I look back in my life of the things that I think I was lucky at. And I've had plenty of things that I was lucky at. Some of them are what you're talking about. But some of them came out of the blue, just completely.

Tina Seelig (26:26)

Give me an example.

Mike Carruthers (26:28)

So I used for many years, for most of my career, I was a disc jockey on the radio. And one day I got a call from a guy who was producing a television show for Fox and said, we want to use you as the announcer on this show.

Tina Seelig (26:49)

Okay, perfect.

Mike Carruthers (26:50)

And they did. And it was an incredible experience, but it wasn't like something I was trying to get. Never even saw that.

Tina Seelig (26:58)

I understand. Okay, Mike, this is perfect example. And this is why I debated the role of luck in our lives with my father for decades is exactly this situation. Why did they call you? Why didn't they call someone else? Why did they call you? Because you had done all sorts of things to set the stage that you were the obvious person for them to call. If you had been a jerk, if you hadn't been good at your job, they would never have called you.

Mike Carruthers (27:30)

Do you think, because I think this, that luck, good luck and bad luck are self fulfilling, prophecies A lot of the time, if you think you are a lucky person, you're more likely to be a lucky person.

Tina Seelig (27:46)

Well, that's probably true. Because if you're thinking you're a lucky person, what you're doing is you're probably opening your eyes and looking for luck. You're looking for opportunities. If you think you're unlucky, you're going to be, you know, keeping your eyes closed and, you know, putting your, putting your earbuds in. You know, it's funny, I walk around campus and I see all these people wearing headphones and earbuds and staring at their phone, and I think this is the most unlucky thing you could possibly do. You are walking around without engaging with other people. You have now missed a thousand opportunities that you know every single day. All those people you pass who you didn't smile with, you didn't have a conversation and then you say you know you're lonely. Well, gee, you just walked through life in a way that you didn't engage with anyone who could have been your next best friend.

Mike Carruthers (28:40)

Well, this shines a very different light on luck that I think, I think most people don't think about. So I'm glad you were here to talk about it. I've been talking with Tina Selig, who has spent 25 years teaching at Stanford University and she's author of a book called what I Wish I Knew about A Crash course on turning aspirations into achievements. She has a TED Talk that we'll link to in the show notes and there's a link to her book in there as well. Thank you, Tina.

Tina Seelig (29:07)

Super. Thanks so much, Mike. Have a super day.

Prime Originals Announcer (29:11)

This episode is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories. And the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus Elle every year after the Love Hypothesis, Sterling point and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime Girl.

Ross Dress for Less Announcer (29:41)

Winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders that perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch.

Mike Carruthers (30:00)

Done.

Ross Dress for Less Announcer (30:00)

Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross Work your magic.

Mike Carruthers (30:13)

Imagine if you could peek into what millions of people are secretly searching for online. What would you learn? Because what people type into Google isn't just random curiosity. It's often private, unfiltered, and sometimes things people wouldn't say out loud. And when you look at those searches at scale, a picture starts to emerge. A picture of what people worry about, what they hope for, what confuses them, even what they're afraid of. So what does all that searching say about us? My guest has been digging into exactly that. Simon Rogers is Google's data editor, leading a team that analyzes what people search for and what it reveals. He's author of a book called what we ask, A surprisingly hopeful history of humankind. Hi, Simon. Welcome to something you should know.

Simon Rogers (31:11)

Hi, thanks for having me.

Mike Carruthers (31:13)

So to start this conversation, it's probably a good idea to ask you to explain what it is you do at Google.

Simon Rogers (31:21)

Okay, so I'm data editor at Google, which means that wherever Google trends, data shows up in the world. That's basically my baby. So with my team, we're really data storytellers. They're not so much statisticians or analysts, but really what we do is we use the data to help tell stories about the world around us. Really?

Mike Carruthers (31:43)

And why do you do that?

Simon Rogers (31:46)

Well, I think it's basically because this data that we have tells us a lot about who we are as humans and the things that we care about and the things that we focus on every day. And I think with data on its own, if you see data or numbers, they're just numbers. They don't mean anything. And I think often it takes a person to help kind of translate that people and see how we can see ourselves reflected back to us through the data.

Mike Carruthers (32:14)

Are there any broad sweeping things you can say about what people ask Google? Obviously, everybody has their own reason for asking whatever it is they ask. But in general, what kinds of things do they ask?

Simon Rogers (32:27)

Well, I would say there are a couple of things that came through in the data when I was looking at, one of which is that we are not as lonely as we may feel. The things that we do in search are things that everybody else does too. And we may not realize it, we may think we're the only person looking for something, but actually you're often part of a community, whether you realize it or not. The second thing I would say is we're really seeing a big spike in people wanting to help others. And you see this in search, where people search for how to help or how to donate. After a crisis has happened or there's been an earthquake and people want to respond to it. And you definitely see that coming through in the data. And then the other thing I would say is that we know a lot less than we think we do. So essentially all of the basic things in life that perhaps we feel we should have learned by now, we search for every day, whether it's like, you know, how to tie a tie or how to boil an egg. So really we know nothing and we need help to get through our everyday lives.

Mike Carruthers (33:26)

Well, it makes you wonder, like, how did people ever get along and get by without having search engine like Google to ask, like, how do I do that? A lot of searches is how do I blank?

Simon Rogers (33:41)

Absolutely. And people, you find, like people search for how to fix, say, or how do I do this? And often those things are not necessarily around themselves, but they're around others. Like, how to help maybe somebody with anxiety. You can really see that in the data. So we did a project where we looked at what people search for how to fix in different countries. And in the US it's things like light bulbs and windows, and in France it's toilets. You know, it's like there are things that are same in the way we search, and there are things that are very different around the world.

Mike Carruthers (34:16)

How much of the searches are just trivial things like, I don't know, how many movies has Tom Cruise been in? Or how old is Taylor Swift just fairly irrelevant things that people are just curious about?

Simon Rogers (34:32)

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say, I would say nothing's relevant in the way that people search. This all tells us something. But a lot of searches are about everyday stuff. And the other thing about it is it's incredibly ephemeral. So you might be searching for Tom Cruise movies one moment, the next you'll be searching for trying to understand why stories in the news or why you know how to help somebody in your family. So I'd say that it just kind of reflects us in our weirdnesses and that we search for one thing one second and another completely different thing a second later.

Mike Carruthers (35:06)

How many times, how often do people search Google?

Simon Rogers (35:10)

Oh, and there are billions every day. I mean, I don't know the total numbers because it's always changing. So I can't tell you how many there are on a given day, but I can compare one place to another place. So you can compare a big city to a small one, for instance.

Mike Carruthers (35:23)

And where's the biggest hub of Google searches?

Simon Rogers (35:28)

I mean, it just reflects population really. So if you did a map of the world in Google searches. What you would see is basically just reflects where humans are, where people are. They're going to be searching and you can definitely see that through the data.

Mike Carruthers (35:42)

So here's a question I've always wondered about and you're the perfect person to ask. So every time they catch a killer, right, they catch some guy that killed, they say, well we looked at his Google searches and it said how do you sync a body with concrete blocks in his Google search? And so that, so do. But do a lot of people search that kind of thing or is it only serial killers that search how to kill people?

Simon Rogers (36:10)

I hate to tell you that basically most searches are pretty normal. The stuff that we all do, whether it's like parenting or food or health or pets or grief even, because most of the searches we do are things that we all have in common. Obviously. You know, weird stuff happens to the world, there's weird data. But the other thing about Google trends data is that it's because it's aggregated and there's all these privacy restrictions put in. We can't see trends that are just done by one or two people. We can only see trends that are done by like the population as a whole.

Mike Carruthers (36:40)

So we won't get an answer to that. We won't know?

Simon Rogers (36:43)

I'm afraid not from a Google trend for sure.

Mike Carruthers (36:46)

What about when people search? I imagine searches at 2 o' clock in the morning are different than searches at 2 o' clock in the afternoon.

Simon Rogers (36:53)

Yeah, definitely. And what we see is there's a real kind of variation around the day. But there are things that are very common. Like for instance, you know, people search for the words baby and sleep around 2 in the morning and emergency room about 4 in the morning. But then during the day is people searching for lunch or dinner or when to go to the gym or even things like at night. Searches tend to get more kind of metaphysical like why am I here? Searches would, those kind of things would spike at night. So we're, we're creatures of habit in that we tend to do certain things around the same time. But they are, there is a really a calendar of the way we search and it goes, you know, for the year as well. Like for instance, the peak for, for learning to play piano is around Christmas because I guess people are learning to play piano for Christmas. So there's like, there are things that just pop up at the same time every, every minute or every day or even every year.

Mike Carruthers (37:48)

I don't know if this is something that you can address. But it's something I've wondered about since Google has added AI summaries to its searches, has it changed the way and what people search?

Simon Rogers (38:01)

I would say so. We're still really early in this process of going through the data. And, you know, AI data has only really been around for a year or so, so we don't have a lot to go on. But what my feeling, and maybe I'm wrong in this, and we'll see, is that actually it's not necessarily changing what people search for, but there is a revolution in the way that you search. So queries getting a lot longer. For instance, you know, you might search, instead of searching for a restaurant near me, you might search for a Vietnamese restaurant near me where I can get state or 10 with a large group and take a birthday cake. You know, you'll add a lot more detail to those queries. I'll also say there's kind of a cognitive offloading going on where we'll ask AI to do the work for us around all of the search work that we might have done ourselves in the past.

Mike Carruthers (38:47)

What surprises you about this? When you look at the data, what do you go? God, I didn't see that coming.

Simon Rogers (38:54)

I mean, I guess, like, when I started writing it, I didn't necessarily think, you know, this is quite an optimistic book, I guess. And I didn't know that that's what was going to happen. I definitely felt that, yeah, I was just interested in seeing what the data showed, but partly because I. I guess the first. The first chapter I wrote was actually the grief chapter. And it was something I did just after my. My mama died. And so I thought, well, this will be the hardest one to write, and it's very personal to me. I kind of started diving into the data and it really showed me how even though I felt terribly alone in that moment, quite lonely, I guess, in that. In that moment, I wasn't the only person doing it. I wasn't the only person searching for those things. And I think we see that often and a lot of the searches around how to help somebody in that situation. So really, for me then I started seeing that actually maybe this tells us that things are a little bit better or people are a little bit kinder than we think they are because often we're searching for how to help others. And it was kind of reassuring to me, actually, when I was in that situation where I could see I wasn't the only person doing something.

Mike Carruthers (40:00)

How long I, you know, I lose track of time. How long have we been searching Google and other search engines. Like how, when, when did that become a thing where it seemed like people were really turning to that for answers?

Simon Rogers (40:13)

Wow. I mean I can still remember the first time I used Google search back in like the late 90s. We only have Google Trends data going back to 2004, which is still pretty amazing because we've got this, you know, decades of data there and it's, it's something we didn't have before and it's publicly available so we can all look at it and we can all, we can all search it and we can all see how the rest of the world is looking for this stuff. But yeah, really the data itself that we have goes back to 2004 and you can see it in real time or even just like over the whole period.

Mike Carruthers (40:45)

And in 2004, was it that different than in 2026?

Simon Rogers (40:50)

Well, it's interesting, I think like some things are obviously different. Like if you look at, we do this project called Year in Search every year which a kind of guide to the year in search. And you know, like there are some things you know are going to be different. So obviously different movies, different actors, musicians, all of that sort of thing. But then there are some things which are kind of resonate the same. Like people definitely search for helping or family stuff or search for stuff around the kids or food or recipes. And you can see that data, there's a kind of consistency there, which is really nice to, to see that kind of shine through the data as well.

Mike Carruthers (41:28)

Are there things though that people search today that they never searched for before or seldom did or have things like we don't search for that anymore or anything like that?

Simon Rogers (41:40)

Yeah, I mean 15% of searches are brand new each day.

Mike Carruthers (41:43)

What?

Simon Rogers (41:44)

15% of searches each day are brand new, which means they've never been searched before. So yeah, the data is constantly evolving and changing. I think some of the big themes have stayed the same. But yeah, there are always things that are new. You know, if you look at the top search questions, like they include things like people used to search for how to make slime. It was incredibly popular. It's one of the top searches. And there was a concurrent search which went with that, which is how to get slime out of the carpet. So you can see those moments where things change because they're fatty or they're trendy. Maybe the boo boos fit into that this year. But then the big questions, those big moments are definitely resonant and they continue right the way through.

Mike Carruthers (42:25)

I'm Shocked to hear that 15% of the searches are new. It seems like everything's been asked by now.

Simon Rogers (42:33)

Yeah, apparently not. I mean, I guess like all the variables in humans, right? There's always new situations for people. Obviously some things are going to be new because they're names or things that didn't exist before. But you definitely see there's like we're always striving to kind of understand the world around us and that is something you can definitely see in the data.

Mike Carruthers (42:54)

It seems from what you're saying that most searches are pretty personal. That there's something that's on my mind right now that I need to know. It's not like bigger things.

Simon Rogers (43:09)

I think it's all personal really, in a way. So it's a weird mix of the personal and the public because I guess when you search for something, it's a genuine expression of interest. You're not presenting yourself like you might do with like social media. What you're doing is you're saying, this is what I genuinely care about. But what you care about is always personal to you too. You get an amazing picture of who we are as humans that way.

Mike Carruthers (43:33)

So what are some of the top current searches right now?

Simon Rogers (43:36)

Oh, right now, if you look today, a lot of searches around flight cancellations. There's a spike in searches for Olympic tickets at the moment going on. You can see a lot of data, but it changes constantly. So I'm telling you this now, within half an hour it'll be completely different, I'm sure. And when you see there are big stories happening in the world, people want to understand what they're about and so on. So you definitely see it reflecting the news too.

Mike Carruthers (44:04)

It is so interesting if you stop and think about the ability to get this instant access to information that before took a trip to the library or it's hard to imagine life without this.

Simon Rogers (44:21)

It is, isn't it? I mean, I think that's what really shone through in the data to me, I guess, is that you could see how this has become so much a part of people's everyday lives.

Mike Carruthers (44:32)

When the dust settles from when you look at this, like, what else do you walk away with? Either scratching your head or going, boy, this is just unbelievable. What are the things that really astonish you about this data?

Simon Rogers (44:44)

I mean, it's just how varied it is. You think you know people, but really we don't. I mean, like some of the stuff is just weird to me. Like one of the top searched animals for can I keep as a pet is a panda. Now I don't think you can keep a panda as a pet really, but the fact that people are searching for that is hilarious to me. But also I think the way that you can see these big social changes as well. So for instance, searches for look after parents have overtaken searches for look after kids. And that speaks to something I think is a broader social trend around, you know, this sandwich generation that a lot of us find ourselves in right now.

Mike Carruthers (45:25)

Wow. Anything else that really just really knocks your socks off that like, I mean,

Simon Rogers (45:30)

one of the top searched how to say I love you is how to say I love you in dog, which is we love our dogs for sure. In France, the, the top searched actually in Paris, the top search food is pizza.

Mike Carruthers (45:47)

And meaning they're looking for to get a pizza.

Simon Rogers (45:51)

Yeah, I guess so.

Mike Carruthers (45:52)

So that one of the top searches in Paris is to where do I get a pizza?

Simon Rogers (45:57)

Oh, the top food searches. The top searched food in Paris is pizza. You know, you're in the capital, the culinary capital of the world. Yeah, there's, there's lots of stuff like that. There are things like if you look at kids classes, they're very different, different places. So in Australia parents search for coding classes for kids. In Canada it's boxing. In UK it's parkour. And in the US it's etiquette, which I thought was interesting.

Mike Carruthers (46:23)

Etiquette.

Simon Rogers (46:24)

Yeah, etiquette, exactly. I can't tell you why it is, but this is people, people are interesting and varied in all of our, in of our many ways.

Mike Carruthers (46:32)

I would have, I would have thought if anything that would be much more of a British thing than an American.

Simon Rogers (46:37)

Yeah, right, me too. Yeah. Not in Britain.

Mike Carruthers (46:40)

So what you're saying is we should open a pizza restaurant in Paris.

Simon Rogers (46:44)

I think it's not a crazy idea,

Mike Carruthers (46:47)

maybe a chain of them if that's what everybody's looking for to eat primarily.

Simon Rogers (46:53)

So yeah, it's a whole thing.

Mike Carruthers (46:55)

Wow, that's. Well, is that ever a way that the data gets used? Can people access that data and say, hey, here's an opportunity that we need to open a pizza restaurant in Paris?

Simon Rogers (47:07)

Yeah, I think like, I mean Google Trends data is available. It's something you can see and anybody can use it. And I think that's like a really powerful thing. So it's really about the imagination of the people who are looking. Like I would never have thought to look for that for instance. But I'm not a culinary expert. So you can imagine if you are that person, you've got that knowledge and expertise, you can bring that knowledge to combine it with the search data. And yeah, it starts to get really interesting.

Mike Carruthers (47:33)

But are there things that never change?

Simon Rogers (47:38)

Yeah, I mean, some things are obvious that would never change, I guess like the weather. People always search for the weather. It's consistent or even how to tell the time and things like that you see spiking in different places. Which. One of the. One of the spikes I found when I was looking for this was how to tell time drunk, which is a real search.

Mike Carruthers (47:58)

How to tell time drunk?

Simon Rogers (48:00)

Yeah, it's a real search and apparently the top place search for that is London, which does not surprise me at all, being a Brit. But yeah, I think there are some things that are very constant and definitely a lot of those around helping and help. But also the ways we live our lives, whether it's music or parenting or pets or any of those things that are just part of all of our worlds.

Mike Carruthers (48:21)

I just looked up how to tell time drunk on Google. It says telling time while intoxicated is difficult.

Simon Rogers (48:31)

Yeah, I can't argue with that. I'm sorry.

Mike Carruthers (48:34)

I think I could have told you that. Well, I'm still really floored by that statistic you gave that 15% of all Google searches are brand new. It just seems like what could be left to search? This has been a fun peek behind the curtain at Google. I appreciate you sharing this. I've been talking to Simon Rogers, who's Google's data editor and he's author of a book called what We Ask, A surprisingly Hopeful History of Humankind. There's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Simon, great, thanks.

Simon Rogers (49:08)

Oh, thanks so much for having me. It was fun.

Mike Carruthers (49:13)

So nice. People may not finish last, but they might get paid less. Newer research looking across dozens of studies has found that people who score high in agreeableness, meaning they're cooperative, polite and easy to work with, they tend to earn less money on average. And the pattern shows up again and again. Here's the important part. It's not that being difficult gets you paid more. It's that agreeable people are often less likely to negotiate, push back, or ask for more and more, even when they deserve it. In other words, they're not earning less because they're less capable. They're earning less because they're trying to be nice. So the takeaway isn't to be a jerk. It's to know that sometimes being too agreeable has a cost. And that is something you should know. Something you should know is produced by Jeff Haveison, Jennifer Brennan and The Executive Producer is Ken Williams. Mike I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. I know you like interesting and thought provoking conversations and ideas because you listen to something you should know. So let me recommend another podcast I know you will enjoy. It's the Jordan Harbinger Show. Jordan has a real talent for getting his guests to share stories and offer thought provoking insights. Over the years I've sent a lot of people to listen and I get feedback from people who are so glad I introduced them to the Jordan Harbinger show recently. He discussed Scientology and the children who are raised in that organization. It's a fascinating conversation and he talked with Dr. Rhonda Patrick about how to protect your mind and body from the modern world and it's tougher than you think. I've gotten to know Jordan pretty well. We talk frequently and I tell you he is a very smart, insightful guy who does a hell of a podcast. Check out the Jordan Harbinger show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.