Mike Carruthers (3:59)

Something you should know Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers hi there and welcome to Something you should Know. Since we all eat food, I've always been interested in all the things that affect how we enjoy our food. And there's a guy named Charles Spence. He's an experimental psychologist at Oxford University. He has spent his career studying how environment affects the way we experience food. So for example, the weight and color of the utensils you use can affect how sweet or salty a food tastes. And people tend to enjoy the same dish more and more if it has a longer and more descriptive name. He also found that people who like strong coffee tend to drink more of it under bright lights, whereas people who prefer weak coffee tend to drink more of it under dim light. And the shape and color of the dinnerware can affect the taste of the food as well. In general, round white plates tend to enhance sweet flavors in food, whereas black angular plates tend to bring out more savory flavors. And serving food on a red plate tends to reduce the amount that people eat. And that is something you should know. Here's a topic that you don't hear discussed very often. It's the topic of how we recognize faces. Think about it. When you recognize someone, it's because of their face, right? I mean, you don't look at someone's hands and go, oh, it's Bob? No, it's always the face. Some of us are pretty good with faces. Some people are really good with faces. They'll often say, I never forget a face. And still others are face blind. They can't tell anyone, even family members, who they are, by looking at their face. And of course, now we have something called face face recognition software. How does that work, and how does it fit into this conversation? Well, here to discuss this unusual and fascinating topic is Sharona Pearl. She's an associate professor of medical ethics and history at Drexel University. She's written a couple of books about faces. Her latest is called Do I Know From Face Blindness to Super Recognition. Hi, Sharona. Welcome to something you should know.

Sharona Pearl (6:35)

Thanks so much, Mike. It's really exciting to be talking to you.

Mike Carruthers (6:38)

So I have to say, it seems like an unusual career choice to study faces and how we recognize faces. How did you get into this?

Sharona Pearl (6:50)

I didn't intend to become a scholar of the face per se, because, like you say, it's one of those things that's ubiquitous but isn't really a category. And the things that we study and the things that we know tend to be categories. But I just got really, really interested in the stakes for the face as the most basic unit of how we understand our own humanity and build relationships, and also as a site where we actually impose a lot of assumptions, biases, and then naturalize them and say, actually, it's not me, it's the face.

Mike Carruthers (7:27)

So there are people who seemingly can remember faces really well. Oh, yeah, that's Bob. I met him six years ago in Tallahassee. And they just. They see a face once and they remember it. Then there are people. And I would consider myself in this category. I'm okay with faces. I sort of remember faces pretty well. But, you know, maybe I saw them on tv. Maybe I met him. I'm not really sure. Is the ability to remember a face a skill?

Sharona Pearl (8:00)

So it's not really a skill in the sense of something that you can get better at or train yourself in, as you gestured toward. There are some people who absolutely cannot do this at all. They have something called prosopagnosia or face blindness, and they are absolutely unable to look at a face. And then when they see that face again, understand that it is the same person. And asking them to work on that, to try a little harder, is akin to asking somebody who's colorblind to really focus, and then maybe you'll be able to see the color. So in that sense, it's not really a skill. But having said that, for most people, most of us are mostly good at recognizing faces in the sense that if we see someone and then we see them again, we have the idea that they are related to that specific person. Now, we can be better or worse at it. And for most of us, how good we are at it in any given situation has a lot to do with the kind of interaction we had with that person. So if it's your mother, your lover, your brother, you see them a lot, they mean something to you. You're going to be able to recognize them more readily. But I love that you mentioned Mike, somebody that I saw on tv, because they're also people we have these parasocial relationships with. They don't know us, but we know them. So if we've had a meaningful encounter with them, we might also have a better ability to recognize them. But people on the extremes of this face recognition spectrum, people who are completely face blind all the way up to people who are what we call super recognizers. And it does sound like something that the Marvel or DC Universe came up with, but it's actually a neurological condition. Those folks have the ability to recognize faces independent of their relationship or interaction with that person. Now, you might hear about super recognizers and hear that they never forget a face. I think that's not strictly accurate. I think it's more reasonable to say that their ability to recall a face is unrelated to the relationship or encounter that they've had. And that's basically true of face blind people as well. Except for face blind people. Their ability to recall those faces is zero. And for super recognizers, it is extremely high.

Mike Carruthers (10:23)

So wait, so somebody who was a super recognizer is somebody who's seen someone before and then can recall them upon seeing them again? Very well.

Sharona Pearl (10:35)

Correct, correct, Correct. So they're really good at high school reunions because not only can they recognize folks, but they can actually age them over time. They are basically the walking Internet movie database. So they can recognize minor characters and extras and say, oh, hey, that was Vampire Number Two and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Now, interestingly, those folks don't necessarily have a great memory, per se, right? And they might not recall names, but for situational understanding of where that face appeared, their recall is pretty impressive.

Mike Carruthers (11:11)

Well, that's something you sometimes hear those two things thrown together is, I'm not good with names and faces, but those are two very different, different things. Right?

Sharona Pearl (11:20)

That's absolutely the case. And mostly because names do tend to be a function of memory, whereas faces are actually a different neurological process, and a really complicated one that's connected in some ways to recall and memory, but actually has a lot to do with how we build images in our mind. And some folks just don't have the ability to do that for faces. But having said that, face blind people have developed, tend to have developed a whole host of really impressive adaptations like voice recognition and gait recognition. They tend to have really good awareness and attunement to things like hairstyles and clothing and general ways that people manifest in the world. But if a face blind parent, someone who's profoundly face blind and remember it's a spectrum. So the bottom 1 to 2% of the population, I shouldn't say bottom 1 to 2% of the Population on the extreme end of face blindness are going to have much less ability than those on the 5%, 10%, and so on and so forth. But if somebody who's profoundly face blind sends their kid to daycare in the morning in one outfit, and their kid, as kids do, needs a change of clothing, that parent might not be able to recognize their kid at pickup.

Shane Parish (12:40)

No.

Sharona Pearl (12:41)

Yes. And in fact, one of the most well known face blind people, Oliver Sacks, who made a career out of tracking the unusual and the odd and the kind of quirky things that can happen to our brains, who himself didn't realize that he was face blind until later middle age. As he described it talks about sometimes waving to somebody and realizing it's himself or seeing what he thought was his own reflection and starting to groom his beard, only to see someone looking at him oddly because it was not in fact him.

Mike Carruthers (13:23)

That's very weird.

Sharona Pearl (13:25)

Very weird.

Mike Carruthers (13:26)

So I get what you said, that it's a spectrum. But just to get a sense of this, like what percentage of the population would you say are really good at recognizing faces? And what percentage of the pop suffer from some form of face blindness?

Sharona Pearl (13:43)

Scientists believe that about 1 to 2% of the population is profoundly face blind. That's 1 in 50 people. So quite a lot. And then by the logic of that spectrum, 1 to 2% of the population would be super recognizers. Having said that, there are a couple of caveats. First of all, the kinds of super recognizers who are being deployed, and they absolutely are, and we can talk about this in criminal justice. Police forces to make sense of face recognition technology are not the top 1 to 2%. They're probably the top 1 to 2% of the top 1 to 2%. The people who can really, really have this fantastical ability are really quite a discreet number. And also There's a lot of ways to seem like you're bad at face recognition. So it could be that you're face blind and you have prosopagnosia, but it could be that you have trouble understanding emotions and communication and that makes it hard for you to make sense of faces. Right. So people with autism sometimes might also seem like they have face blindness. And so it has kind of a long tail on that spectrum. But in fact, they don't. Although there is, you know, face blindness is a little overrepresented amongst the autistic community. But there are other ways to seem like you're not great at recognizing faces. And folks who have excellent memories or pay a lot of attention when they're interacting with others may seem like they're more super recognizers, but they're not. They're relying on a different set of skills.

Mike Carruthers (15:22)

We are talking about face recognition and how some of us can recognize faces really well and some of us can't do it at all. And most of us are somewhere in the middle. My guest is Sharona Pearl. She's author of a book called Do I Know From Face Blindness to Super Recognition.

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Sharona Pearl (16:12)

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Mike Carruthers (16:41)

So, Sharona, people who are face blind, are they always face blind? You know how a baby can recognize its mother's face very, very quickly? Do people start out okay and then something happens or it's from birth?

Sharona Pearl (16:57)

So that's a really astute question because we were talking earlier about this question of tacit knowledge and things that we do without even know that we're doing it. It took a really, really long time for people who think about the brain and think about faces to understand that face recognition was even a thing or a category, because there was no kind of crisis. There was no moment where people could do a thing and couldn't. So folks who just were face blind felt like they were stupid or not trying hard or everybody else power that they didn't, but they didn't have framing or language for it. So the first forms of face blindness that were categorized as such in 1947, although there's a longer history in certain ways, were people who had what's called acquired prosopagnosia. So that means that they could recognize faces, and then something happened, a traumatic brain injury, a fever, a fall, and then they couldn't anymore. And that was the way that it became entered into the record as a category. And even though 1 to 2% of the population is probably born with what they call developmental prosopagnosia, it took something like 20 to 30 years after that initial acquired case was established for folks to even find people who were born with it, because it's so hard to name or label. But yes, it does seem to be the case that some people are born completely face blind.

Mike Carruthers (18:29)

I would imagine that must be terrifying for. Well, I guess you don't have anything to compare it to, but you know how a baby sees its mother's face and just relaxes, just smiles, because there's comfort there. If you can't recognize your mother as an infant, God, that would just be horrible. But if you have nothing to compare it to, maybe it's not. I don't know.

Sharona Pearl (18:54)

Well, probably infants can also recognize their mother's smell and voice and other kinds of cues, so they might not be living in that condition of terror or overwhelmingness or sense of loss until later. But absolutely that's the case. And while I'm interested in the way that extremeness itself is something that people have in common. So trying to think about what face blind people and super recognizers themselves have in common by virtue of being on extreme ends of this kind of unusual spectrum, there's no doubt that the challenges of being face blind are much more significant from all kinds of perspectives, including social and navigational and safety. But one of the nice things about this now becoming a category is that people have some language to describe themselves. And I think that's really important. I recognize the stigma attached to labeling, but at the same time being able to say it's not that I'm rude. I genuinely can't recognize you can be an enormous relief from that fear you're talking about.

Mike Carruthers (20:09)

So here's an observation that I've made made is that it would seem to me from my experience that if I meet someone one on one, I'm more apt to remember their face than if I meet them in a group. Especially if it's a group of similar people, they kind of all melt together. I think in terms of my ability to later recognize them because it's just a group of guys or a group of ladies and they're not individuals so much. And so their faces aren't as recognizable.

Sharona Pearl (20:43)

Yeah, I mean, I think some of that is again, about the relationships and the interaction that you're having. So their face kind of imprints a little more meaningfully on you because you've had this encounter with them. But I really like the point that you raised that often people do tend to look pretty similar. Obviously that's not exclusively the case. But even for those of us who aren't face blind, it might be really challenging to be able to distinguish between four Hollywood actors who all have the same haircut and teeth and veneers and kind of nose and so on and so forth. And it's not accidental. I mean, there is this enormous pressure for people to look similar to one another. Right. So I think that when you're in a group of people who do tend to look pretty similar, that can be harder.

Mike Carruthers (21:35)

Yeah. I remember I just saw not that long ago a video and they were talking with Brad Pitt, mark Wahlberg, Leonardo DiCaprio and Matt Damon. And they were talking about how they get recognized as the other often. And they all kind of. There is something about them that's very. They're roughly the same age, they probably are roughly the same height, and they're all pretty good looking guys. But they get. You would think a big superstar like that, you would know exactly who that is and not think it's another superstar.

Sharona Pearl (22:14)

Well, there's a cultural thing to think about. There is the fact that they all became superstars, a function of them all kind of looking similar. Right. Is it. They might on some level occupy a similar kind of genre of look. An interesting piece there, though, is that Brad Pitt is actually face blind.

Mike Carruthers (22:34)

Profoundly face blind.

Sharona Pearl (22:37)

Profoundly face blind. As an interesting anecdote, people who are face blind tend to have significantly more diverse groups of friends and also tend in their romantic relationships to be attracted to people who are not conventionally attractive. Partly because if you have a friend group and like you're saying, it can be really confusing even for non face blind people to know who is who. You might want to have a diverse group to make it easier to distinguish who is who. And one of the adaptations that face blind books have is that if there's something unusual about how someone looks, that can make it easier for them to remember. So while this doesn't hold true in giant swaths of the aggregate, I think there's something to be learned from face blind people about the kinds of judgments that we make of others.

Mike Carruthers (23:30)

It is seemingly politically incorrect to say that, say, a group of people from a different race tend to look similar, tend to look alike, but experience people will tell you that that does sometimes seem to be true. What do you say?

Sharona Pearl (23:50)

Psychologists would agree with you. There's something called the other race effect or the cross race effect. The crew. And it's not just racism with an acronym. There is an idea that faces that we have less exposure to are going to be harder to distinguish. So that actually works for folks who are not of the race that they have a lot of exposure to, as well as folks who are of that race. And as it happens, because of the global dominance of whiteness on television and in other ways, we tend to find it a lot easier to recognize white folks. But it is a demonstrated phenomenon.

Mike Carruthers (24:30)

So when I get up in the morning and turn my phone on, the phone recognizes my face and opens up. How does it do that?

Sharona Pearl (24:40)

Essentially, your phone has a form of face recognition technology embedded in it. And what it's doing is turning your face into a series of data points and measurements that it's comparing to a certain stored image of your face that it already has, that it has already converted into those data points. So if those Data points match, I.e. the various distances between points on your face match, then it's decided that it's you. That is the easiest case, by far and by far the most successful version of facial recognition technology. In the sense of having very few fault false positives, right? Deciding that people are a match who aren't because it's already got the image of you that you took in ideal conditions, matching it up to a captured image of you in ideal conditions. What we see with cameras with embedded facial recognition technology, either private or public, are images that people captured not deliberately often and matched up against images that were not specifically necessarily taken for that purpose, often scraped from social media in ways that can represent a pretty serious incursion upon our privacy. And that has historically led to all kinds of false positives. People incorrectly being identified as a match for, say, somebody who has an arrest warrant.

Mike Carruthers (26:06)

Something interesting. You said that facial recognition software basically uses data points on your face and compares it to an image that it has stored. But is that how we do it? Are we using data points on a person's face? Because when I look at a person and look at their face, I just look at their face, and I see the whole face. And then I wonder, well, how much of the face do you have to see in order to recognize it?

Sharona Pearl (26:36)

Absolutely. And scientists are kind of split on this question. Early face recognition researchers suspected that people who are at the extreme ends of these spectrums tended to focus on a particular feature. A nose, a mouth, ears, as opposed to doing what you're referencing, which is holistic processing, looking at the face as a whole. And you can see why. From a super recognition standpoint, that makes sense. If you only see an ear or nose or an eye and you can still recognize that person, it's because you are actually taking in discrete points of information as opposed to making sense of the face as a whole. Now, it's unclear whether or not that's actually as robust as we thought. Maybe some super recognizers are also processing the face as a whole. But I'll say this for me, and for a lot of people, it actually becomes really important to see the whole face. I don't know about you, but I certainly had more difficulty recognizing people when they were wearing masks that covered their nose and their mouth. The other thing that emerged is that when people took their masks off, if you only met someone with a mask on, they looked really different. Because our faces were filling in information. We were making mouths for them that didn't necessarily line up with how they looked at all.

Mike Carruthers (27:56)

Well, this is a topic I have never discussed before, and it's fascinating to hear you explain it, Especially the fact that you're one of the top people in this field. I've been speaking with Sharona Pearl. She's an associate professor of medical ethics and history at Drexel University. And the name of her book is Do I know From Face blindness to super Recognition. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Thanks, Sharona. Really well done.

Sharona Pearl (28:23)

That's a huge compliment from you. Thank you so much.

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Shane Parish (29:15)

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Mike Carruthers (29:28)

Thinking clearly it's something we like to think we do pretty well. Yet I bet there have been moments when you've looked back on an event or a decision and thought, what was I thinking? Clearly you were thinking not very clearly. Seems like when we put our mind to it, we can think pretty well, but so much of the time we're on autopilot. So how do we become better at clearer thinking to help make better decisions and do the right thing well? Here with some insight and some advice on that is Shane Parish. He is an entrepreneur whose insights are used by Fortune 500 companies and major sports teams. His work has appeared in nearly every major publication, including the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and Forbes. He has a podcast called the Knowledge Project, and he's author of a book called Clear Turning Ordinary Moments Into Extraordinary Results. Hi Shane, welcome to Something youg Should Know.

Shane Parish (30:27)

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Mike Carruthers (30:29)

As I mentioned, I like to think that I think pretty well, and I think most people like to think that they think well. Do we think well? Are people, are we good thinkers?

Shane Parish (30:40)

Well, we're pretty good when we know we're supposed to be thinking. I mean, we're generally okay in the moments when we know we're making a decision, when we are choosing, you know, what career or what person to marry. Other times we're not so good. When situations tend to think for us, we either get caught up in the moment. You can easily recall any example when you're angry and you said something that you wish you could unsay and you weren't thinking in that moment. And if I tapped you on the shoulder and I said, hey, do you want to pour water or gas on this situation? You would be like water. But that's not what we choose in those moments.

Mike Carruthers (31:17)

So emotions seem to get in the way much of the time.

Shane Parish (31:21)

Emotions is one of the defaults. So there's four defaults. There's the emotion default there's the ego default, there's the social default and inertia default. And all of those things sort of conspire to create situations that think situations or circumstances that do the thinking for us. And this is why positioning is. Is so key to this, because all of these things are going to come up. You're. You're always going to be faced with these things. But how do you position yourself so that you're playing on easy mode instead of hard mode? Yeah.

Mike Carruthers (31:51)

Well, how do you do that? Because it seems very human to let those other things think for you, and that that's kind of what human beings do and to push those aside and be clear seems like a pretty tough thing to do.

Shane Parish (32:06)

Can I give you an example from my life?

Mike Carruthers (32:08)

Yeah.

Shane Parish (32:09)

Yeah. So one of my kids came home and he, you know, he's a teenager, and he passed me his exam, and he didn't do as well as he should have or hoped to do on that exam. And, you know, he shrugged his shoulders and he said, I did my best. Later on that evening, I approached him and I talked to him and I said, hey, what does it mean to do your best? Like, walk me through when you said, I did my best. What do you mean? He's like, well, in the moment that I sat down to write the test, I read all the questions, checked all the points, allocated my time accordingly, and I'm like, oh, that's so interesting. Because you think about doing your best as from the moment the circumstances arrive at your doorstep to the moment you finish whatever you sort of set out to do. That's how a lot of adults think about decision making, too. And it's how we handle our emotion, our ego, our social, our inertia. But let's rewind. Let's go back 72 hours for the sake of argument. And did you study well? Not really. Did you stay up late? Yes. Why did you stay up late? Well, I was cramming. Did you eat a healthy breakfast? No, I didn't eat a healthy breakfast. Well, why didn't you eat a healthy breakfast? Because I got up late. I was running at the door, so I just grabbed a bagel. So you crashed at the same time that your test was coming? Did you get in a fight with your brother? Yeah. Why'd you get in a fight with your brother? Because we were both trying to use the bathroom at the same time. Why did that happen? Because I got up late. So you chose to play on hard mode. The test was going to happen. The test might still kick your butt That's a different story. But you chose to put that on hard mode based on your actions. And we do that a lot in life, right? If we don't get enough sleep, it's harder to handle the emotional variability that we have on a daily basis. If we get a lot of sleep, if we eat healthy, if we drink less, if we go for walks, if we connect with people, well, these emotional variations that happen to all of us, well, they're a lot easier to overcome in those moments.

Mike Carruthers (33:51)

Well, that's such a great example, because who hasn't been in a similar situation to that? And it's like we kind of make it hard for ourselves when we could have not. We could have made it a lot easier. But we seem to throw up these roadblocks for reasons I guess, I don't really understand.

Shane Parish (34:09)

Well, think about it. A lot of arguments or conflict in relationships happens after work at night. Why does it happen after work at night? 1. You're spending time together, but that time is not your best time. You're tired, you're exhausted, you had a long day, you've got a million things on your mind. So you're not at your best. You're not bringing your best selfie to that. But you've also probably. Did you eat a healthy lunch? Did you not? Did you work out that day? Did you not? These things contribute to how easily that situation gets resolved. And another aspect of positioning, if you will, is just to bring it back to relationships. Are you investing in that relationship on a regular basis? And if you are investing in that relationship, it's like watering the grass. And what do we know about watering the grass? Well, if I water the grass every day with my partner and I spend time with. With them and I connect with them and I cuddle with them and I love them, and I try to be the best partner that I can be while every day I'm watering that grass. And so when we have one of these little, I want to call them disputes, but call them whatever you want, tiffs, then all of a sudden it just dissipates really quickly. But if I'm not investing in that relationship, if I enter into that tiff, that disagreement in a bad position, if we both enter it in a bad position, well, now all of a sudden it starts to take on a lot more gravity. It becomes a lot more serious, and it doesn't dissipate. And so we can think of watering the grass. What happens when you water the grass and a spark falls on it? Well, nothing. It just goes out but if you don't water the grass, the grass gets dry and then what happens? Well, any little spark is going to set that on fire. We can think about relationships that way. Now most people tackle that at the moment of how do we have a better conversation in that moment? Like how do you handle these moments better? But how can we avoid them in the first place? How can we prevent them from happening? How can we add friction to them so that we actually end up enabling ourselves to think clearly?

Mike Carruthers (35:55)

Well, isn't it interesting in. And I know people, I'm sure you know people in relationships where you can tell that there's friction in that relationship, yet they stay in it and yet they don't do what you're saying. Well, what's driving that? If you know that by not watering the grass in this relationship, you know what that's going to do, why do you stay? Why do people do it willingly do it when they know it's going to end poorly?

Shane Parish (36:29)

Because all of the things that we know we should be doing, all the common sense, the obvious actions that we know are going to result in success, we avoid them because they all require prepayment. They all require us to do something today, to expend effort, to expend money, to put in time to in order to get paid in the future. And increasingly we're unable to sort of make those trade offs in our head. You know, if I want to invest in my relationship today, I'm not going to see the payoff today. But we have to be smarter than that. We know the payoff's coming. We can foresee that watering the grass is not only good for our soul on a daily basis, but it's really good for our relationship and it helps us stay connected to our partner and it helps us handle the inevitable ups and downs that life is going to throw at us. There's other ways. You know, we talk about positioning, but you know, another thing that we talk about, how do we handle these daily situations so that we can think clearly? A great example is social situations. So one of the four defaults is the social default. And you know, I don't know about you, but I tend to say yes to people because I want them to like me. So they might request something from me. And if I'm talking to them, you know, it's really hard to say no to people. It's a lot easier to say no to people on email. It's a lot harder to say no to people on purpose. Person. So I was at Daniel Kahneman's Penthouse in New York. And this came up with me. And Daniel Kahneman is a Nobel laureate. He studied cognitive biases for 65 years. He is the godfather of cognitive biases. And he picked up the phone when we were having a conversation because he had to answer this call. And towards the end of the call, he said, you know, my rule is I don't say yes on the phone. And then he. He sort of like hung up. You know, he's like, I'll get back to you tomorrow. And I was like, whoa, pause. What did you just say there? And he said, well, my rule is I don't say yes on the phone. And I said, well, what do you mean? He's like, well, I want people to like me, so I tend to say yes in situations that I don't want to. So I end up doing all these things that I don't really want to do. And so he's like, I created a rule. And he's like, I noticed that, you know, I don't argue with my own rule and nobody else argues with my rule. And so I just say, my rule is. And it's really important to use those words. My rule is and. And that allows the other person to say, oh, okay, he's going to get back to me tomorrow perfectly. And so he's like, now I say yes to 10% of the things I don't end up doing things that I don't want to do. And nobody's pushing back at me, making it awkward in these social moments. So that situation is a great example of a social default where the situation tends to think for you. For most of us, we say yes. We say yes to things we don't want to do. We say yes to things we don't have time to do. Why do we say yes? Because we want other people to like us. Why do we want other people to like us? Because we're self preserving. Why are we self preserving? We need to fit in the tribe. We can't be on the other side of the tribe. This is 10,000 years of human evolution right here. And so I was like, what other rules do you have? This is the most powerful thing you've done. And he said, I don't have any. And I was like, oh, gosh. Like, how can we use this in practical everyday life? How can we create automatic rules that position us for success? And so another example of a rule is that I work out every day. I have no meetings till 12. I start drinking at 9. I invest in an index fund every month. And. And so you can come up with your own set of rules. And to come up with them, just ask yourself, what would the person who accomplishes what I want to accomplish, what would their life look like? And how do I set rules around this? And so one of my friends who was trying to lose weight, you know, he is a salesperson, so he ends up eating out like, 15 times a week. And he's like, it's crazy. So he said, you know, I was like, well, let's try this rule thing. Because he said dieting was really hard for him. And I was like, well, instead of dieting, let's just think about it as a rule, right? Let's just tackle the. The meals that you go out, you eat at a restaurant. Your rule is you always order the healthiest thing on the menu. And your rule is you only have one drink. And he's like, okay. He's like, I don't believe you. This is gonna work. Anyway, three months later, all of his health metrics are up, his weight's down. He feels happy, energetic, all from a simple rule. Nobody pushes back on his rule, and he doesn't push back on his rule. We've been brought up our whole lives to follow rules, but nobody's ever taught us how to create these rules and take advantage of them for ourselves.

Mike Carruthers (40:50)

So how do you do that? I can just imagine creating that rule and saying in a moment of weakness, well, it's just my rule. I mean, it's. I could let it go this time.

Shane Parish (41:04)

But that's not how we're brought up to think about rules, right? So you don't drive down the road every morning, look at the speed limit, and wonder why it's set at 70 miles an hour, or 70 kilometers an hour. Whatever. It's set out where you're located. You know, it's a rule. Nobody has to remind you it's a rule. You just know it. You follow it. You learned it once, and that's all it took. And it's the same way with our head. Try it. We have a 99.8% success rate. I think we've tried this on 10,000 people, and I think there's 20 people who are like, it didn't work for me. It's insane.

Mike Carruthers (41:40)

That's a pretty good success rate, because as you were giving that example, yeah, I know the speed limit, but I break it sometimes. Not purposely or not, you know, but sometimes rules are meant to be broken. So then. Then I think, well, if I break it now, maybe I'll break it tomorrow. So screw the whole rule.

Shane Parish (42:02)

I mean, you can do that if you want. I mean, you know, there's obvious situations where your rules won't apply. Right? There's a saying that the young man knows the rules and the old man knows the exceptions. And I think it's wise to keep that in mind. And it's not about being perfect with your rule. But, for example, you know, my rule is I work out every. I've probably missed three in the past year. So I think never miss twice.

Mike Carruthers (42:30)

And so how do you build whatever that is, the stamina, the discipline to do this? Because it seems maybe daunting to some.

Shane Parish (42:43)

Well, that's interesting. Right? So let's take working out every day. I used to work out three days a week. And I found that when I was working out three days a week, that little voice inside my head, maybe everybody has a different voice, but my voice was like, hey, you had a long day today. You didn't sleep well last night. You got a lot on your plate. Let's take today off. And you know what? We'll make up for it. We'll do extra tomorrow. We'll pay with interest. And then tomorrow would come around, and I'd negotiate with myself all over again. And I was negotiating, and the negotiation was causing me so much. I don't know, not even anxiety, but I wasn't doing the things that I wanted to do because I was like, why? So I created this automatic rule. I'm going to sweat every day. I don't, you know, go to the gym every day, but I sweat every day. And when I wake up, the conversation that I have with myself isn't, am I going to work out today? It's what does my workout look like today? And some days that's 15 minutes. Some days it's 90 minutes. And so I can change the duration or scope of what I'm doing, but I can't change the fact that I'm going to be healthy and I'm going to exercise, because that's the type of person that I want to be. The person that achieves the things that I want to achieve in life, that lives the type of life that I want to live, does those things. So I create an automatic rule around it. Now I do it every day. I don't argue with myself.

Mike Carruthers (44:01)

I mean, I get it, and it sounds great. And other people are listening to you right now going, yeah, this sounds pretty good. But how many people will actually do it? Because one thing I think people are afraid of is if they Fail or if they miss a day or they do something wrong, then it's like, see what a failure I am. And then they just throw in the tell.

Shane Parish (44:21)

Yeah, it's that little voice inside of our head. The most powerful story in the world is the one we tell ourselves. And I think, you know, we need to learn to talk to that voice in the moments when we're strong. And when are we strong? We're usually strong. You know, when we wake up in the morning and you just, we tell ourselves that tell, that little voice, not today, I can fail tomorrow. But you know, missing one workout doesn't make me a failure. You know, I'm not going to miss again. I'm going to go right now, I'm going to do it. I'm going to make time, I'm going to make a priority for it. I'm going to set it in my calendar so I don't have to find the time to do it. And there's a million different solutions for this. And I think we beat ourselves up about those, you know, and once that little voice takes hold, it paralyzes us. And I think that we can just change that. All you have to do is say, not today, I can fail tomorrow, but I'm not going to fail today.

Mike Carruthers (45:07)

I have a sense that one of the reasons that people don't follow what you're talking about or something along those lines is that self sabotage, like they don't believe they can, so they don't even bother. And that when they look at people like you and people who do what you're talking about, you have, just listening to you, you clearly have a lot of self confidence, you have a lot of self control. You have something that I think a lot of people think they don't have. So what's the point? And I think it's really all in their head.

Shane Parish (45:44)

I don't know if that's true. Right. When I think about confidence, I think about confidence very differently than other people. I think about confidence as next step confidence, not all the way to the ultimate outcome confidence. Most people think the other way. And I'll give you an example. When I left the three letter agency and I decided that I was going to pursue a different path, you know, my mom showed up at my house in tears, crying, begging me to keep my job, begging me not to do this, begging me not to throw away this amazing career that I had built over the course of 15 years. And towards the end of that conversation, she's like, what are you going to do to make A living. And I said, I don't know, I have no idea. But I have the confidence that I'll get up tomorrow and I'll get one step closer to it and I'll figure it out. And that is what I call next step confidence. You don't need the confidence to get to the end, you need the confidence to take the next step. Used this with my kids as well. We went cliff jumping, you know, a few years ago. And it's this sort of like one way door. You climb up this cliff, you can't climb down. Like you, you literally have to jump in. And so I told my son, I was like, hey, if you go up there, it's 25ft. Like this is a big jump. If you go up, you have to jump or I have to throw you in. Like you, you literally can't come down. It's too dangerous to climb back down. So it climbs up, you know, with all the bravado of I think a 9 or 10 year old had at the time. And he gets to the top and he's like, oh my God, like I can't do this. And it's like, okay, well let's talk about this, right? First get control of your physiology. So let's like back away from the edge and let's start breathing again, get some oxygen to our brain, calm down. Now walk me through what you're thinking. What's that voice inside your head saying? Well, the voice is saying, I can't do it, I'm scared. I've never done this before. Okay, well that's interesting, right? So let's think of all the moments where you've done something hard and you know, if I can do this with a 9 year old, you can do it with your life. We've all gone through moments where we didn't think we could do it, where we weren't prepared and we came through it stronger. You can recall those moments for yourself. For him, it was like snowboarding and wakeboarding and all these sports that he had tried, that he had never tried before. And you know, then I was like, okay, well now instead of looking down, instead of looking at the water, let's look about it, let's change our vantage point, change how we're looking into this situation and just take one step off the edge. That's all I had to do. And he didn't look down, he took one step off the edge. And lo and behold, as soon as he hit the water, he's back up, climbing and now he's running and trying to do flips up the edge. And so I think that that's what we can do with adults too. If you look at anybody in professional sports, marathoner, you know, when they start a marathon, they're not thinking about the end. You know, when things get hard and they start playing these little voices in their head and that little doubt creeps in. All they tell themselves is like, I just have to make it to that light. And then when they hit that light, they switch it. I gotta make it to that stop sign. And they keep that goal, they keep the distance between where they are and the goal they want to accomplish really small. And the bigger that gap is, the bigger the gap between where you are today and where you want to be. And if you focus on where you want to be and you don't focus on the first step, it's just going to cause that little voice of self doubt, that little paralysis. It's going to make it really, really, really challenging to take that first step. If on the other hand, you're like, okay, well, what's the first step that I can take towards this goal? I can do that. That's manageable. The gap between where I am and accomplishing that first step is pretty small. And so I call it next step confidence. Focus on the next step and have the belief in yourself that you'll figure it out. As, as you go down the path, everything changes anyway. Once you start to take action, it creates its own momentum. Action creates confidence. You're not going to get confidence without action.

Mike Carruthers (49:50)

When you think about it, this is a topic what we've been discussing for the last 20 minutes. And this is something that applies to everybody but nobody ever talks about. And it's really good to just get it out on the table and look at it. And it helps you think more clearly and perhaps accomplish more in your life. I've been talking with Shane Parish. The name of his book is Clear Turning Ordinary Moments into Extraordinary Results. And you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Shane. I really like this, Mike.

Shane Parish (50:21)

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Mike Carruthers (50:27)

Most of us know somebody who says they can drink coffee right before bed without any negative effects. Maybe it's you. I've always thought I was one of those people. But according to Michael Bruce, who is author of the Sleep Doctors diet plan, that's pretty much impossible. While you may think it's not interfering with your sleep, caffeine is a stimulant that has been proven to affect everyone.

Shane Parish (50:53)

Everyone.

Mike Carruthers (50:53)

If you measure the brain waves, you see an increase in mental activity whether a person is asleep or awake. Dr. Bruce says people who have little or no difficulty falling asleep after a fresh cup of coffee are most likely sleep deprived in the first place or exhausted enough to override the effects. But that doesn't mean the caffeine isn't having an effect, and that is something you should know. You know, there's been a lot of research done and articles written about how it is that people discover podcasts because there's millions of them and one of the number one ways is from recommendations. People are more likely to listen to a podcast because a friend or colleague recommended it, knowing that it would really help us. If you would recommend this podcast to someone you know and help us grow the audience, it is a great way to support the show. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

Sharona Pearl (51:54)

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Sharona Pearl (52:20)

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May apply Ah, the Regency era. You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place or the time when Jane Austen wrote her books. But the Regency Era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history. And on the Vulgar History podcast, we're going to be looking at the balls, the gowns, and all the scandal of the Regency era. Vulgar History is a women's history podcast and our Regency Era series will be focusing on the most rebellious women of this time. That includes Jane Austen herself, who is maybe more radical than you might have thought. We'll also be talking about queer icons like Anne Lister, scientists like Mary Anning and Ada Lovelace, as well as other scandalous actresses, royal mistresses, rebellious princesses, and other lesser known figures who made history happen in England in the Regency era. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcast.