The Startling Impact of Peer Pressure & Why Shyness Can Be a Plus

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Startling Impact of Peer Pressure & Why Shyness Can Be a Plus"

Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers | OmniCast Media
Release Date: March 10, 2025

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of "Something You Should Know," host Mike Carruthers delves into two profound topics that influence our daily lives: the subtle yet powerful effects of peer pressure and the nuanced nature of shyness. Through insightful interviews with top experts—Robert Frank, a professor at Cornell University's Johnson Graduate School of Management, and Lynn Henderson, founder of the Social Fitness Center and the Shyness Institute—Carruthers unpacks how these phenomena shape our behaviors, relationships, and personal growth.

---

Understanding Peer Pressure with Robert Frank

[05:44] Robert Frank: "Peer pressure is not about coercing someone; it's about modeling behavior. Your actions influence others just as theirs influence you."

The True Nature of Peer Pressure

Contrary to the common misconception that peer pressure is synonymous with direct coercion, Robert Frank clarifies that it primarily involves the subtle modeling of behaviors within a social network. Frank emphasizes that individuals are more influenced by observing and emulating the actions of those around them rather than being overtly pressured to change.

Peer Pressure's Impact on Health and Behavior

Frank highlights various studies demonstrating the profound impact of peer dynamics on personal health and behavior:

• Obesity Contagion: "If others in your social network become obese, you are much more likely to become obese yourself." ([00:17] Carruthers) Frank references a military study revealing that a 1% increase in obesity rates in a new location led to a 5% rise in obesity among stationed military families, underscoring the contagious nature of weight gain within social groups.

• Smoking Habits: Using smoking as a prime example, Frank illustrates how peer behavior can significantly influence individual choices. He notes that "the smoking rate among friends can make someone 25% more likely to start or remain a smoker," emphasizing that the ripple effects of one person's behavior can lead to widespread societal changes.

Peer Pressure Across Different Domains

Beyond health, peer pressure affects various aspects of life:

• Academic Performance: Studies show that students paired with heavy-drinking roommates experienced a notable decline in their academic performance, illustrating how peer habits can extend into educational realms.

• Environmental Actions: Frank discusses the adoption of solar panels and hybrid cars, pointing out that visible actions like installing solar panels or driving a Prius can inspire community-wide shifts towards sustainable practices.

Cultural Universality and Policy Implications

While Frank hasn't conducted specific studies across different cultures, he hypothesizes that peer influence is a deeply rooted human trait likely universal across societies. He advocates for leveraging peer pressure in policy-making to encourage beneficial behaviors, such as reducing carbon emissions or promoting health, without the need for direct regulation.

Notable Quote:

"If you behave in a way that benefits others, your behavior can serve as a powerful example, encouraging similar actions within your community." — Robert Frank ([07:46])

---

The Complexity of Shyness with Lynn Henderson

[33:06] Lynn Henderson: "Shyness is a fear of negative evaluation that sometimes interferes with your doing what you really want to do. It's a universal human emotion."

Defining Shyness vs. Introversion

Lynn Henderson differentiates between shyness and introversion:

• Shyness: Rooted in the fear of negative evaluation, shyness involves anxiety about how others perceive us, potentially hindering one's actions and social interactions.

• Introversion: Characterized by a preference for solitude and limited social interactions, introversion is about energy restoration rather than fear of judgment.

The Universality of Shyness

Henderson points out that shyness is nearly universal, with only about 2% of people claiming never to have experienced it. This prevalence underscores its significance in human social behavior and highlights the importance of addressing it when it becomes problematic.

Shyness as a Protective Mechanism

Shyness serves an evolutionary purpose, acting as a mechanism for predator detection by heightening caution in potentially threatening situations. However, in modern contexts, this heightened caution is often exaggerated, leading to unnecessary social anxiety.

Overcoming Problematic Shyness

Henderson outlines strategies to manage and overcome shyness:

• Social Fitness Training: Engaging in activities that simulate social interactions helps desensitize individuals to anxiety-inducing situations. Role-playing and group therapy provide supportive environments where individuals can practice positive self-talk and build confidence.

• Support Systems: Building a network of supportive peers who share similar experiences can normalize feelings of shyness and reduce the associated shame.

• Positive Reinforcement: Encouraging individuals to take small steps in social settings can gradually reduce shyness, as repeated positive experiences build resilience and reduce fear.

Shyness in Leadership and Success

Interestingly, Henderson shares that many successful leaders identify as shy. These individuals often lead from behind, leveraging their keen observational skills, empathy, and strategic thinking to influence others without seeking the spotlight. Their passion and dedication to their values enable them to push past shyness and achieve their goals.

Notable Quote:

"Fear isn't what holds people back the most; it's shame. Understanding that shyness is a universal experience can help individuals overcome the internal barriers to social interaction." — Lynn Henderson ([46:36])

---

The Magic of Making Connections

Towards the episode's conclusion, Carruthers touches on the phenomenon of "clicking" with others—the immediate and often inexplicable chemistry that forms in certain relationships. Research suggests that such connections are not merely coincidental but are influenced by shared adversity, vulnerability, and physical proximity.

• Shared Adversity: Experiencing similar challenges fosters deep bonds, as mutual understanding and support emerge from common struggles.

• Vulnerability: Sharing one's true self encourages reciprocal openness, creating a strong emotional connection.

• Proximity: Physical closeness significantly increases the likelihood of forming meaningful connections, as demonstrated in studies within college dormitories where neighboring rooms fostered higher rates of "clicking."

---

Conclusion

In this enlightening episode, Mike Carruthers masterfully navigates the intricate dynamics of peer pressure and shyness, revealing how these factors profoundly shape our interactions and personal development. Through expert insights and relatable discussions, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the invisible forces that guide our behaviors and the strategies available to harness or mitigate their effects. Whether it's leveraging peer influence for positive societal change or overcoming the barriers of shyness to forge meaningful connections, this episode offers valuable wisdom for enhancing one's life today.

---

Additional Resources

• Robert Frank's Book: Under the Influence: Putting Peer Pressure to Work
  Available on Amazon [Link in Show Notes]

• Lynn Henderson's Book: The Shyness Workbook
  Available on Amazon [Link in Show Notes]

---

Thank you for tuning into "Something You Should Know." Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast for more insightful episodes that can transform your life with just one little fact or piece of wisdom.

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

Today on Something you should know what to do when your doctor makes you wait well past the appointment time, then Understanding Peer Pressure it's really interesting how peer pressure can determine how much you and your friends weigh.

[Robert Frank]

One of the early studies showed statistically that there was actually a fairly strong link that if others in your social network became obese, you were much more likely to become obese yourself.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, why do you just click with some people but not others? And shyness? Why do we feel shy in the first place?

[Lynn Henderson]

It's a fear of negative evaluation that sometimes interferes with your doing what you really want to do. But it's only 2% of the population who say they've never experienced shyness. It's a universal human emotion.

[Mike Carruthers]

All this today on Something you should know. Whenever I've had to hire someone, I didn't have the luxury of taking my time and thinking about it. It was always we need someone and we need them now. And if you ever find yourself in that situation, Indeed is all you need. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, your job postings really stand out. It's simple. With Sponsored Jobs, your posts jump right to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. And that's the thing, right? You need good quality candidates fast so you can review them and quickly move on to the hiring phase. Indeed makes this whole thing easier than trying to do it on your own. And with Indeed, you only pay for results. How fast is Indeed? Well, in the minute I've been Talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed According to Indeed Data Worldwide. Look, there's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com something just go to Indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast, indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Something you should know, fascinating intel, the.

[Narrator]

World'S top experts, and practical advice you.

[Mike Carruthers]

Can use in your life. Today. Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi. Hey. Here we go with another episode of Something you should know. And we're going to start today with one of my pet peeves. And that's when a doctor or a dentist consistently makes you wait well past your appointment time before they see you. I understand things come up and occasionally it happens but it's when it happens all the time. I don't know. I guess it's because if I made appointments with people and showed up 40 minutes late all the time, that would be a problem. And apparently I'm not the only one who is bugged by this. According to a survey, one in five patients say they have switched doctors because of long wait times. I would be part of that. 1 in 5. 30% of patients have left a doctor's appointment because of a long wait. Now, the average wait time is about 20 minutes. And Stephen Reimer of the Yale Medical School has studied this problem and says nobody should should have to wait more than 20 minutes without a good explanation. And that's the other thing. Anticipated wait is a lot easier to take than not knowing how long you're going to wait. So if it's going to be longer than 20 minutes, someone should tell you. If they don't, you should go to the desk and ask why you have to wait so long. Dr. Reimer says you should also tell the doctor, not just the staff, that this bothers you. People are timid when it comes to criticizing their doctor, but it's the doctor who sets the appointment policy. The doctor is responsible for your wait. No other business would survive if customers were kept waiting so long. And doctors need to understand that your time is valuable. And that is something you should know. We've all heard the term peer pressure. I'm sure you know what it means. Yet I've come to learn from my guest who you're about to meet, that that term is a bit of a misnomer. At least the pressure part. It's not so much pressure when you think of pressuring someone or coercing someone. It's more about modeling behavior. Your behavior that you model influences other people's behavior, and your behavior is influenced by other people's behavior, probably more than you imagine. So how does this all work exactly? What makes it so powerful? And how can we best use peer pressure to get people to change? Well, joining me is Robert Frank. He is a professor of management and economics at Cornell University's Johnson Graduate School of Management. He has been a columnist for the New York Times for more than a decade, and he is author of the book under the Influence Putting Peer Pressure to Work. Hi, Robert. Welcome.

[Robert Frank]

Nice to be with you, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

So everyone's heard of peer pressure, but how do we know it's a real thing? And how do you measure it? And how do we know it works?

[Robert Frank]

Oh, it's been studied now, intensively. So for example, smoking is a nice illustration. We didn't really regulate smoking until we had studies coming out of Japan showing that exposure to secondhand smoke caused illness in others. We're reluctant to regulate generally. That's probably a good thing on balance. But the excuse we give for regulating is that what you do is going to cause harm to others. That's hard for them to avoid. And so the fact that people didn't have any practical way to avoid illnesses caused by secondhand smoke, that was the license that regulators thought they needed to start taxing cigarettes heavily, passing regulations that you couldn't smoke in restaurants and bars and public buildings and the like. In fact, the damage from secondhand smoke is. I won't say it's trivial, but it's trivial in comparison with the most important damage we cause as smokers, which is to make other people more likely to smoke. The studies on that are very clear. So if the smoking rate. You're worried your daughter's going to smoke, if the smoking rate amongst her friends goes from, say, 20% up to 30%, that doesn't sound like a big increase. That increase by itself will make her 25% more likely to either become or remain a smoker. So it's a huge effect. It's an enormous amount of harm somebody causes when they indirectly cause somebody else to become a smoker. And so that's a far better reason for. For discouraging people from smoking than the risk they pose to others by. By exposing them to secondhand smoke.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I remember too, that one of the arguments given for people to give up smoking was that if you have kids and you smoke, they're much more likely to smoke because their parents smoked.

[Robert Frank]

That was certainly true in my case. I started smoking at age 14. I'm thankful that I smoked for only two years, but my parents didn't want me to smoke. But both of them smoked, so it was a weak soup they served. By way of advice to me, if you think I shouldn't smoke, why do you smoke?

[Mike Carruthers]

Because I'm an adult. That's what I heard anyway.

[Robert Frank]

Exactly.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. Because I'm an adult. I don't want to spend too much time on the smoking example. But what I find so fascinating is that today secondhand smoke irritates almost everyone. You know, we don't want to be around cigarette smoke. It smells bad, it's annoying, but it didn't used to be. I mean, people's houses smelled, airplanes were horrible, horribly stuffy with cigarette smoke, and nobody seemed to care. And now they do.

[Robert Frank]

We Adapt very quickly to just about anything. There are studies showing that most people say they'd rather be killed in an auto accident than to survive and be a paraplegic. It is devastating to suffer an injury like that, to be sure. But what is surprising to most people is that when paraplegics are studied about a year after their accident, they display a very similar mix of moods and emotions to what they'd experienced before their accidents. They're not. They're not happy about having been injured, to be sure, but it's not as big an effect psychologically as people would anticipate. We adapt very quickly to all sorts of circumstances. So if. If the place smells bad, we adapt quickly to it. Yeah, that's what we do.

[Mike Carruthers]

But peer pressure implies pressure. I mean, like, not only am I modeling this behavior, I'm pressuring you to change yours.

[Robert Frank]

No, in my understanding of the term, it doesn't mean that I've been thinking about this sort of influence for a long time. I think one of the most interesting early examples that got me thinking about it was from an Alan Funt film. He was the old candid camera impresario. He would put people in odd situations and film how they'd react. So he posted an ad for a really good sounding job. It paid well, it didn't have very difficult to fulfill. Requirements involve travel and meeting interesting people. So of course a lot of people wanted to sign up for interviews for this job. He booked appointments. And in the film we see a guy arrive for his interview. He's shown into a waiting room. There are four other people already sitting in there waiting. He sits down with the other four. The film zooms in on the later arrival's face and it is a expression goes from one of complete impassivity to a look of grave concern. Alarm. How would I describe it? The camera pans back and we see that the reason he's alarmed is that the other four have it. No apparent signal, stood up, they're taking off all the clothing. And finally we see him tip psychologically. He shrugs, he gets up and he takes off all his own clothing. And the scene ends. We see all five of them standing there naked, waiting for what comes next. And I think the impulse is to think what an idiot. He was so easily swayed by the example of these peers. Look, he wanted this job. He didn't know what the drill was. He was the last to arrive amongst the five of them. If anybody knew what the drill was going to be about, it was they. They thought it was worth going through the next steps. Is it so obvious that he was making a foolish decision to mimic what they were doing? I certainly wouldn't be prepared to argue for that position.

[Mike Carruthers]

So the term peer pressure really isn't accurate. It isn't pressure. It's not trying to force someone to do something. Because if those people in the waiting room were sitting there fully clothed and told this guy, really, come on, take your clothes off, and pressured him to do it, he'd. He'd leave, he'd run.

[Robert Frank]

Yeah, I think that's a good point. Yeah, I hadn't thought to put it that way, but it was the fact that they thought it was worth doing that was so compelling to him.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what are some other examples, especially ones that maybe we're not aware of, of peer pressure at work?

[Robert Frank]

One of the demonstrations that surprised me most, the question was, does the amount of weight you gain depend upon the amount of weight gained by others around you? One of the early studies showed statistically that there was actually a fairly strong link that if others in your social network became obese, you were much more likely to become obese yourself. But the most convincing demonstration of that, to my eye came from a military study. And what they showed was that if somebody was were stationed to a new post in which the obesity rate in the new county was 1% higher than the county they'd just left, then all the adult members in that military family were 5% more likely to become obese in the new location. It was just an eye opener to see that study. To me, I had no idea that obesity would be contagious in that way.

[Mike Carruthers]

And it's so unconscious. It's not that someone is trying to get you to eat more or suggesting that you eat more. It's just being around people who eat more than you're likely to eat more and gain weight.

[Robert Frank]

And there have been studies of drinking among students. Students are paired randomly with roommates at one college. They have evidence on whether the roommates with whom they were paired were drinking significant amounts of alcohol in high school. The students who were paired with such roommates had dramatically lower grade point averages in their second year in school. The influence of living with substantially heavy drinking roommate was quite profound in terms of measurable outcomes for those students.

[Mike Carruthers]

It's so interesting to hear that, because it doesn't feel like that I don't feel like I'm being influenced by people around me in things like how much they drink or how much they eat, nor do I think I'm influencing them. But clearly from what you're saying that.

[Robert Frank]

Is going on, I advise my students look carefully at the people who work at the company you're thinking of joining because you're going to become more like those people. If you think, oh, this job pays well, I'll pay off my student loans in a hurry and then move somewhere else, you know, in the process of being there five years, you're going to become a lot more like those colleagues of yours. If you, if you think they're admirable people, they're the kind of people you'd like to become more like than well and good. But oftentimes people take those jobs knowing that they're going to be amongst people they don't admire. And I think they overlook the effect that is likely to happen, which is they'll become more like them.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're discussing the science of peer pressure and my guest is Robert Frank. He is a professor at Cornell University's Graduate School of Management and he is author of a book called under the Influence, Putting Peer Pressure to Work. So my wife had some friends over and I asked them, have you ever shopped at or heard of Quints? Because I had just heard they were going to advertise here and I didn't know much about them, so I wanted to know what other people knew. And all of them, except one, I think, said, oh, I love quints. Their clothes are fabulous. Well, since then I've gotten two cashmere sweaters, a couple of polo shirts, and I wish you could see them here. You can hear, that's the sound of my Mongolian cashmere sweater. And their cashmere sweaters start at $50. They also have these iconic 100% leather jackets, pants for every occasion. Quint's has everything for men and women and their clothes are really high quality. The best part, Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quint's cuts the cost to the middleman and then passes the savings on to us. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. Look, just go check out Quint's, see how great their clothes look and how amazing the prices are and buy something. It's a great way to support this show and I know you're going to love it. Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quints.comSYSK for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-N-C-E.comSYSK to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comSYSK Shopify has been a sponsor of ours for a long time and I've learned a lot about them. What you need to know is that Shopify is the business behind the business that makes the selling and shopping part of any business. Simple. Which is why so many businesses, I mean like literally millions of businesses, use Shopify to make everything run smoothly. Shopify is the number one checkout system on the planet. If you have a business, Shopify should be the business behind your business. Businesses like Gymshark, Magic Spoon, even companies like Mattel and Heinz use Shopify. And they could use anybody. One really cool thing Shopify has is shop pay Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%. If you have a business, big or small, or you're just starting out, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Which is why you need Shopify. Businesses that want to grow, sell and succeed, do it with Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout as Mattel or Magicspoon. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase. Go to shopify.comsysk to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.comsysk so Robert, one of the things about peer pressure when it comes to parenting, for example, is that we hear that peers can have a greater effect on kids than their parents. Is that true?

[Robert Frank]

Oh, I think there's some support for that idea. For sure, your parents do influence you as well. But the people who are most like you that you spend most of your time with, that's the strongest influence, influence on your own behavior. And by the time you're out of the house and in school, that's eight hours a day, seven to eight hours a day you're not with your parents. The hours after school, mostly you're not with them either. You have a dinner hour with them, short time at breakfast. Most of the time as a kid, you're not with your parents. So it's not at all surprising that the quantitatively biggest impact on behavior would be from others besides parents.

[Mike Carruthers]

Often it seems that peer pressure is, I don't know, it's just so random. The influence just happens. It's why your mother didn't want you hanging around with the wrong crowd. Because just because you were with them, their influence would rub off on you and you would behave like them. But sometimes it seems more organized, like stopping smoking. I mean, fewer, far fewer people smoke now because of peer pressure. But it all got a kickstart from things like high taxes on cigarettes. A lot of places banning cigarette smoking in the buildings, that kind of pushed it along.

[Robert Frank]

And in so many other domains where peer behavior is known to have a huge effect, we should do more of that. So solar panels, it would be good if more people adopted them. And in fact, we do encourage people to take that initial step by subsidizing the adoption of solar panels. And that's something that's highly contagious. We've got studies that show how dramatically the number of installations in a neighborhood rises when there's been one random new installation that other people see.

[Mike Carruthers]

Mostly, though, we've been talking about big things. Drinking, smoking, drugs, solar panels. That's an expensive investment. But does this all work on every level? In other words, if you hang out with kind people and watch them being kind, you're more likely to be kind. But it's really kind of hard to put your finger on kind as opposed to smoking or drinking.

[Robert Frank]

Yes, it works on every level that has ever been studied. And if somebody doesn't believe that, let's see some evidence to the contrary. I've not seen any evidence at all that peer behavior of any type that we can measure has no effect on other people in the group. That evidence either is well hidden or it doesn't exist.

[Mike Carruthers]

Do you know if peer pressure is the same in all cultures, or is it particularly a Western thing that peer pressure has so much importance and significance?

[Robert Frank]

I have not conducted any systematic study of the strength of peer influence in the US as opposed to other places. But my strong expectation would be that this is a deep, deeply rooted component of human nature. It would be astonishing to me if the process were fundamentally different in other places. But I have to say I don't have any evidence to back that up.

[Mike Carruthers]

What's so interesting about this is that peer pressure just has to happen. You can't, like, force it on somebody. You just have to model it. It has to be something that's very organic in daily life as opposed to a goal like, we're going to change his behavior by pressuring him.

[Robert Frank]

I think when people feel pressure to change, they often resist. So it's often counterproductive to pressure people in that overt way. But the whole point of thinking systematically about the importance of peer pressure is to get people to change their behavior. Right now, people behave as if their own behavior has no influence on anybody else. I think it's because it's such an organic process, because it Operates so much out of awareness, we greatly underestimate the effect our own behavior has on others. And again, sometimes our own behavior is a good example for others, and we'd like to see more of that. Other times, as in smoking and excessive drinking and. And other asocial behaviors, it has a negative influence. We'd like to see less of it in those cases. And it's perfectly within our grasp to encourage more of the behaviors that have beneficial spillovers and discourage the ones that have negative ones.

[Mike Carruthers]

Are there any other examples? The one you gave about solar panels. When one house puts solar panels on the roof, it drastically increases the chances that other people in that neighborhood would do the same thing. Are there other examples like that? That's kind of keeping up with the Joneses, I guess.

[Robert Frank]

But, yeah, it's very difficult to find a domain where there wouldn't be ready evidence of that. One of the ones that's related to the solar panel example would be the adoption of hybrid cars. The interesting case study to my eye is the comparison of the Honda Civic hybrid and the Toyota Prius hybrid. They were introduced at about the same time. The Prius was different from the other Toyota cars of the same size. It had a completely distinctive shape. If you were driving one of those, everybody knew at a glance you were driving a hybrid. The Honda Civic hybrid looked exactly like the Honda Civic non hybrid, the one with the gasoline engine. And what happened in the wake of the introduction of those two cars was that sales of the Prius took off like a rocket ship. They spread like wildfire. People saw that other people were driving hybrids. That was, some people call it virtue signaling, but it was behavior that the community generally approved of. We like conservation. We like steps that reduce people's carbon footprints. And people were eager to climb on board train. They would have climbed on board the Honda Civic train if they'd known about it, but they couldn't tell by looking at it that there even was such a train.

[Mike Carruthers]

Can you think of an example of peer pressure where, if I thought about it at the time, I would realize, oh, this is peer pressure, and maybe not fall for it.

[Robert Frank]

So you're out early on a Saturday evening. You're looking for a place to eat. There are two restaurants. You're in an unfamiliar city. There are two restaurants you walk by. There are several diners seated, talking animatedly in one of them. The other one's empty. Which one do you go to? You don't think of yourselves as being pushed around by peer pressure. You choose the one that's already Populated, that might not be the better choice. Maybe the first people who arrived on the scene were tourists too. They didn't know where to go and just at random they went to the, the one they chose. And it's actually a much worse restaurant than the other one. So I don't think we're aware of the process. We don't feel manipulated by it. It's the right decision, I think, to go to the one where people are seated because the odds are that they are locals and that they do know the difference, which one is the better restaurant. But the fact that we would be monitoring whether we're being influenced and, and taking cognitive steps to interfere with the process, that's a very rare phenomenon, I'm sure.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. Well, it's really interesting that we're influenced in so many ways by our peers without knowing it, recognizing it, being aware of it at all. And we're doing the same thing to other people.

[Robert Frank]

Yeah, it's not only interesting, it's an enormously valuable and almost completely unexploited opportunity. And again, the smoking policy case is the role model. We've achieved enormous good for society as a whole by taking steps that have reduced the smoking rate so dramatically. We need to cut back carbon emissions. We need to do all sorts of things that are not in individuals interest necessarily to do on their own, but are collectively very much in our interest to do. And if we can prime the pumps that will make those actions more likely to happen, we can just reap enormous benefits by doing that. That's the real policy gold mine that's sitting here.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it really makes you think about all the people that maybe have influenced you in your lifetime and all the people you have influenced somehow in your lifetime. Robert Frank has been my guest. He is a professor at Cornell University's Johnson Graduate School of Management. The name of his book is under the Influence Putting Peer Pressure to Work. And as I always do, I have put a link to that book that directs you to Amazon in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Robert.

[Robert Frank]

Okay, good to talk with you, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

Recently I was asked to try a supplement called Mitopure and then talk about it here. And I said, well, let me check it out. So Mitopure is a precise dose of urolithin A. That's a metabolic compound that is clinically proven to target the effects of age related cellular decline. And it's also found in small amounts in certain fruits and nuts. Now, as I've talked about many times here, I work at Staying Fit and Healthy. It's important to me and when I researched some studies online and found Urolithin A, which is what Mitopure is, is shown to deliver double digit increases in muscle strength and endurance and I saw that it was safe to take, I started taking it and I've been taking it a while now and I see a change. I have noticed improved muscle strength and endurance. Mitopure works by promoting an essential cellular cleanup process. It clears out dysfunctional mitochondria and it's the only Urolithin a supplement on the market clinically proven to target the effects of age related cellular decline. So look, I invite you to join me and awaken the strength, power and resilience already in you with the first and only supplement clinically proven to rejuvenate health at the cellular level. And I'd love to hear about your results. Timeline that's the company behind Mitopure. Timeline is offering 10% off your order of Mitopure. Go to timeline.com something that's T I M E L I N E timeline.com something losing weight is hard. Everyone knows that. Which is why there's so much talk about these new GLP1 weight loss drugs. To me, it all gets down to this. Yes, there are risks of taking any medication, but there are also serious life threatening risks for staying chronically overweight because you can't lose it on your own. Through weight loss by hers, people are seeing real results. An average of 9 pounds in the first month based on data that real hers customers have reported on their personalized compounded GLP1 treatment plans. Hers offers a holistic weight loss program with personalized solutions including compounded GLP1 weekly injections featuring the same active ingredient as Ozempic and Wegovy. It's easy too. All you do is submit an online intake form and then a licensed medical provider will determine what plan is best for you. And if prescribed, your program includes medication, ongoing care and online support, all at one low cost. There are no hidden fees, no membership fees, and people are seeing real results. If you're struggling with your weight, start your initial free online Visit [e-mail] that's F O R H E R S.comSYSK for your personalized weight loss treatment options. Forhers.comSYSK hers weight loss is not available everywhere. Compounded products are not FDA approved or verified for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required restrictions apply. Wegovy and Ozempic are not compounded. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased. There has no doubt been times in your life when you have felt shy? Often when I think of times I have felt shy, I also had that feeling of being intimidated by the situation or by someone. So everybody feels shy sometimes, and some people feel shy a lot of the time. So what is shyness? What's the difference between a shy person and an introvert? How do you make sure shyness doesn't become a problem? Here to discuss all this is Lynn Henderson. Lynn is the founder of the Social Fitness center and the founder and co director of the Shyness Institute, and she's author of the Shyness Workbook. Hi, Lynn. Welcome.

[Lynn Henderson]

Thanks so much, Michael. Glad to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So everybody knows what shyness is and what it feels like, but how do you define it exactly?

[Lynn Henderson]

It's a fear of negative evaluation that is sometimes interferes with your doing what you really want to do. That's when it's problematic. But it's only 2% of the population who say they've never experienced shyness. It's a universal human emotion.

[Mike Carruthers]

And it seems to me that it's pretty situational. I mean, I have felt shy sometimes and not felt shy other times.

[Lynn Henderson]

Exactly.

[Mike Carruthers]

Why is that? Is it just because you just don't feel secure or what?

[Lynn Henderson]

That's a good question. I think it depends sometimes on your history, whether or not you've ever been in a similar situation that didn't go well. It can be that kind of thing. It can be things that you've heard about a particular situation. I mean, it's usually getting past. Shyness is usually debunking that sort of getting into the same situation and finding out that it usually goes quite well.

[Mike Carruthers]

So does shyness serve a purpose? It seems like it's kind of protective in a way.

[Lynn Henderson]

Well, yes. And you had wondered about the origin of shyness, and I think it is left over in evolution for predator detection. And I think it's just exaggerated. And it's not usually going to happen what you're afraid of in real life, because even if the situation doesn't work out as well as you hope, it's very seldom a disaster. And the other thing we do with people is we teach them compassion imagery and that sort of thing that they can also use to support themselves. Or even imagining that a good friend is by your side when you're trying something new.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, because I would imagine that shyness tends to disappear if you're with people you know.

[Lynn Henderson]

Oh, yes. And it's only 2% of the population that say they've never been shy. So it's a Common. It is a common emotion.

[Mike Carruthers]

And they may be lying.

[Lynn Henderson]

That crossed my mind too.

[Mike Carruthers]

How can you never be shy? I can't imagine going through life and never being so sure of yourself that you don't or so I don't care that you would ever say that.

[Lynn Henderson]

And 60% of Stanford students said they were shy when we did a research study with them.

[Mike Carruthers]

And when people say they're shy, do they usually mean that in a negative way? They're shy and I wish I wasn't.

[Lynn Henderson]

That's a really good question. Sometimes people will say they're shy and they are fine with it because they recognize that it's just an emotional state and they can get past it. And if somebody is too confident, you don't trust them. We all trust people more who make little mistakes and who aren't perfectly confident. Because if somebody's perfectly confident, you start to wonder if they're manipulative or why they need to be so perfect or that kind of thing.

[Mike Carruthers]

What's the difference between being shy and being an introvert?

[Lynn Henderson]

Introverts usually have one or two good friends, but they like their solitude. So it's not concern about negative evaluation, it's just a preference they have. And they need to be by themselves to sort of restore their energy, but it's not a concern about negative evaluation.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so what is the prescription for shyness? I mean, it does seem, as you just pointed out, it can be charming. Maybe it's not something you fix. Maybe it's fine the way it is.

[Lynn Henderson]

Yeah, I mean, I think often that's the case. And particularly people who. Well, one of the issues or one of the problems sometimes is that people who are very attractive and who feel shy often look snooty. People misread the shyness as snootiness and of course that doesn't even occur to them.

[Mike Carruthers]

That's interesting. You're right. If you see someone who's really good looking and they're not talking to anybody, you think, well, what a snob. How stuck up are they?

[Lynn Henderson]

And that's why I like the idea of social fitness training, is that people are situationally shy. And with social fitness, you just do what you're scared of anyway until you get used to it and the fear goes down. And that's why group therapy is so helpful for shyness. It's because you've sort of got a support team on your side and other people have the same experience. And when I was running shyness, nobody would believe that the other group members were shy because they were attractive, nice people and they felt the same way. And that was really reassuring to all of them. There was one really neat experience I had at a group I was running at Stanford and one of the fellows wanted to ask somebody out and he was afraid to do it. The group encouraged him to do it, he did it. Then he came back and he said, oh my gosh, now I have to go on the date. I'll be a basket case and she'll reject me. One of the fellows in the group said, well, why don't you just tell her you're feeling shy? And he said, are you kidding? She would be so critical of me. And he said, well, you could try it. So he did. He tried it. And the woman said, oh my goodness, I'm so relieved. So am I. And they had a nice time on the date.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it does seem oftentimes just thinking of experiences I've had that I'll walk into a room and feel shy right away. But it goes away pretty quickly.

[Lynn Henderson]

Yes. And sometimes when somebody's problematically shy for a while, they also say negative things to themselves like I won't be able to do this or it's going to be too hard. And in groups and that sort of thing, we can practice more supportive self talk, you know, oh, I've seen you do it before, I know you can do it, I'm going to have your back. I mean that kind of thing. Supportive self talk doesn't occur to them sometimes when they're feeling shy and self critical about it.

[Mike Carruthers]

But how do you practice away your shyness with people? You know, because these people don't make you feel shy.

[Lynn Henderson]

Well, what you do is you role play the situations that you want to encounter in the world. And so you, you hear yourself having a nice conversation and that sort of thing. And then the homework is, then you go do it in the real world. So you've had the practice, you know how sometimes you can practice a talk and once you've had the experience of doing it, it's even though you've not had an audience, it makes it easier and better.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, but not a lot better. I mean, it's still not the same experience as speaking in front of strangers.

[Lynn Henderson]

No, it's not. But it can help people just to have in the back of their minds, you know, I need to ask them questions. I can look for common interests, I can share about my interests, I can look for what I find interesting about them. And when you're thinking about these things, you're doing that more than the Negative self talk.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, because you can only do one thing at a time, I guess. Or your brain can only do one thing at a time. And if it's doing that, it's not telling yourself how horrible you are.

[Lynn Henderson]

Right, right. And sometimes when people develop problematic shyness, it has been because they've been teased or humiliated in class. Maybe they've had some kind of an experience growing up that has been difficult and created if it's problematic shyness. And so one of the ways that they can see how they got there and what made them start to withdraw. And of course, it's just like physical fitness. If you don't practice, then it's much harder. But if you do something every day, it just gets easier. And it's really so gratifying to see them do what they're scared to do and how much they enjoy it when they do do it.

[Mike Carruthers]

What in your mind is the difference between shyness and problematic shyness?

[Lynn Henderson]

Problematic shyness is that you're not doing what you want to do. You don't ask that girl out. You don't go to a new group, you don't socialize. It's the withdrawal that separates them. If you're out there and experiencing shyness, but you're doing new things, the shyness reduces over time. As a matter of fact, we did an interesting study of people who were known to be outstanding leaders in their fields who said they were shy. The interesting thing about them was they tended to lead from behind and let other people take the spotlight because they didn't really want the spotlight. But they were keen observers of people. They listened carefully and were empathic. They were motivated, persevering, strategic and genuine. And they were passionate about their values and their work. That's why that's how they could become leaders, is that they cared so much about something, they were willing to do it. They did over prepare for public speaking tasks, and they knew that they just had to push past the shyness to get the job done. And one time we did this group problem solving task, and they did so well in the problem solving task in the group that I videotaped them and I showed it at a conference with their permission. And I said, would you have any sense that these people were shy? So they can do a lot of things they think they can't do.

[Mike Carruthers]

I'm getting the impression that your work and your experience is that the more you do the things that make you feel shy, the less shy you will feel in the future.

[Lynn Henderson]

Exactly.

[Mike Carruthers]

But it does seem that even if you're afraid to ask Susie out, and you finally do, and maybe the relationship doesn't work out too well. So now you need to ask Becky out. That having asked Susie out doesn't make it any easier to ask Becky out.

[Lynn Henderson]

The interesting thing about it, and of course, if they're in a group where they've got people around them who can share their own experiences, everybody has that experience. You know, some people say no, some people say yes. And one of the things that we also know is that if you're trusting and try to have positive expectations, you get disappointed. You do get hurt, but not as much as if you're afraid all the time and you don't do it.

[Mike Carruthers]

You just said positive expectations. And, you know, I think of the, hey, you don't want to go out with me, do you? Kind of, you know, that's not really telegraphing positive expectations. That it is in the ask.

[Lynn Henderson]

Right. But there's a thing that goes along with it, which is trust. That you trust in the long run, something will work out. How many things in life do we get on the first try? Not many.

[Mike Carruthers]

But when you say it will work out, what will work out in the long run?

[Lynn Henderson]

You will probably ask somebody out who will say yes, and you will have a good time.

[Mike Carruthers]

Just may not be Susie.

[Lynn Henderson]

Right.

[Mike Carruthers]

Or Becky.

[Lynn Henderson]

But if you can fail and have that be okay, you don't know what's going on with Susie or Becky or who else they might already be interested in, or you don't know why they said no. But you can make up a lot of horrendous stories about why they might have said no. And that's why group therapy is helpful, is you can normalize some of that. It's harder when they get isolated and they don't have people to talk to.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is there something about shyness and not wanting to be the center of attention? Is there some connection to that?

[Lynn Henderson]

Yeah, I think that's often the case. They don't want a lot of attention.

[Mike Carruthers]

Why?

[Lynn Henderson]

Again, it's usually, what if I fail? What if I let somebody down? What if I don't do a good job? It's that kind of thing, those kinds of automatic thoughts that can get in the way, the negative automatic thoughts. And you learn to say, well, I'll learn something in the process, and then I'll get better at it.

[Mike Carruthers]

My sense is that shy people in the Monday morning quarterbacking of a social interaction are pretty hard on themselves.

[Lynn Henderson]

One of the things that's important here is that fear isn't the thing that holds people back the most. It's shame. And you don't feel ashamed often till after a social situation where people who feel shy will sometimes leave the situation. And then if anything in the conversation hasn't gone well, even if there are three or four people involved in the conversation, they'll take all the blame, all the responsibility. Well, it must have been something about me. So you really have to work with those negative thoughts too, because the shame. What do we want to do? We want to go in our bedrooms and suck our thumbs. We don't want to get out again. Shame is a very lethargic kind of feeling, and yet it's also universal. And when they begin to understand that, that social anxiety is universal, shyness is universal, shame is universal, then all of a sudden they think, well, I'm not alone. And you don't have to be in a shyness group to experience shame.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, on one hand, it's encouraging to hear that the more you push past your comfort zone and make an attempt to be social, the easier it will get. But as hard as it might be, you've got to just get up the nerve to. To go out and give it a try and meet people.

[Lynn Henderson]

And they need to make friends, which they can do. They tend to be. When they start working on things, they tend to do very well. We had a lot of Stanford students in our early groups, and these guys would have been working on their PhDs and hadn't talked to a woman in years. And they'd come into the shyness clinic and they'd say, oh my gosh, I'm never going to be able. And of course they were. And I think it's like most things, if you've got people who believe in you, that you really can and will do it, that makes a big difference. And then you can't get away with just feeling. We can't get away with just feeling sorry for ourselves.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is shyness particularly problematic when it comes to romance? Is that where it rears its head mostly, or is it lots of different situations? Situation.

[Lynn Henderson]

It's lots of different situations, and it depends on any situations from your past where you felt let down and disappointed and then you didn't try again. But I think some people are shy about dating. Some people are shy about work and meetings and that sort of thing. Some people are only shy about public speaking tasks.

[Mike Carruthers]

So everyone's been in the situation where you're at a party or you're at a function and you see someone you want to talk to, but you don't you just. There's something that holds you back from saying something is that shyness?

[Lynn Henderson]

Well, if it has to do with the fear of negative evaluation, that the person's going to respond badly, then it's probably shyness.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah.

[Lynn Henderson]

Because the shyness is mostly related to the fact that they're not going to get the outcome they hope for and they don't have enough of a learning model that they're going to just keep learning. And all of that is okay.

[Mike Carruthers]

I remember somebody saying that shy people are concerned about what other people think and evaluating them negatively. And you know what other people are thinking? Nothing. They're not thinking about you, they're thinking about themselves. And they're not negatively evaluating you. They're probably more worried that you're negatively evaluating them.

[Lynn Henderson]

And I think once they begin to understand that this is pretty universal, it helps them begin to relax a little bit.

[Mike Carruthers]

That's got to help when you realize that. That you're not the only one, that everybody has moments like this and that there is comfort in numbers.

[Lynn Henderson]

That's really true. That's really true. I think when they understand that better and they just understand that it's part of life.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I think a lot of us think of shyness as a character trait. Like, he's tall and he's kind of shy. But shyness can be a real problem. So it's good to hear that if it is a problem, you can do something about it. And even if it isn't a problem, it's nice to know that everybody has dealt with this and that we all struggle with it at some time or another. Lynn Henderson has been my guest. She's founder of the Social Fitness center and co director and founder of the Shyness Institute. The name of her book is the Shyness Workbook, and there's a link to it at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Lynn.

[Lynn Henderson]

Oh, well, it was fun to talk to you.

[Mike Carruthers]

I'm sure we've all had that experience. You know, when you just click with somebody, not just in romance, but it happens in friendships, it happens in business relationships, and it sort of feels like magic. So what is it? What's going on? Well, research about people who click indicates that these encounters are actually more. More important than we once imagined. If a relationship does develop after you clicked, it is often more meaningful and passionate than if you didn't click right away. So what makes people click? Well, much of it is a mystery, but interestingly, a few things do seem to pop up. Shared adversity, for one, people who have been through similar tough times often Click Vulnerability. When you share your true self with someone, it is often reciprocated and a bond is immediately formed. And proximity. In a college dorm room, for instance, people are twice as likely to click with the person in the next dorm room than they are with the person two doors down. And the chances of clicking drops 50% with each door farther down the hall. And that is something you should know One of the things that helps a podcast stay very visible is when people subscribe to listen or follow it. I know the industry is trying to change the terminology from subscribe to follow, but people still say subscribe and all that means is it's free. And all it means is that once you subscribe, then the episodes are sent right to your device so you can listen to them as soon as they're available. It really helps us. So please, if you haven't already become a subscriber or follower to this podcast, I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you.

[Narrator]

Should know if you don't understand what's happening in the world, you are already losing. I'm Tom Bilyeu, co founder of the Billion Dollar brand, Quest Nutrition and host of Impact Theory, and every Monday, Wednesday and Friday I break down the biggest stories in politics, business, future, tech, AI before they hit the mainstream. Information is power, but only if you get it fast enough to actually act on. That's why I record these episodes in the morning and drop them in the afternoon. So you're always ahead of the curve getting unfiltered high signal insights on the topics that actually affect your future. And if you want to be a part of the conversation, you can join me live on my YouTube and Twitch channels to help shape the topics as ask questions and prep the episode with me in real time. The people who see it first win. The rest they get left behind. If you want to stay ahead, think for yourself and take control of your future. Search for Impact Theory wherever you're listening right now. Until then, my friends, be legendary.

[Anne Foster]

Have you ever heard about the 19th century French actress with so many lovers that they formed a lover as a union? Or what about the aboriginal Australian bandit who faked going into labour just to escape the police? Which she did escape from them. It was a great plan. How about the French queen who murdered her rival with poison gloves? I'm Anne Foster, host of the feminist women's history comedy podcast Vulgar History. Every week I share the saga of a woman from history whose story you probably didn't already know and you will never forget. After you hear it. Sometimes we re examine well known people like Cleopatra or Pocahontas, sharing the truth behind their legends. Sometimes we look at the scandalous women you'll never find in a history textbook. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcasts. And if you're curious, the people I was talking about before, the Australian woman is named Marianne Bug and the French actress was named Rochelle. No last name, just Rochelle. And the queen who poisoned her rival is Catherine de Medici. I have episodes about all of them.