David Henkin (5:53)

Hello, Mike, how are you?

Mike Carruthers (5:54)

Great, thanks. So I have to admit I've never really thought much about the week or talked about it as a topic of conversation. What is it about the week that makes it so interesting and made you write a book? And why are we talking about this?

David Henkin (6:10)

The week has always fascinated me, and partly why the week is because the week is a completely artificial unit of time. It's not really based on any natural, observable natural phenomenon, and it's on a fraction, neat fraction, of any other larger unit of time. It's totally conventional. Lots of parts of the world never had it. So I've always been fascinated with this weird thing that is the week we sort of made it up. You can't see it, you can't figure out by looking at the skies if you've lost track of it. And lots of societies did just fine with that one, but we're so attached to it. So I've always been curious as to what it does for us or what it does to us to have this very peculiar time unit in our lives.

Mike Carruthers (6:54)

Does everyone have a week? Is the whole. Pretty much the whole world. Weak centric.

David Henkin (7:01)

Yeah. I'd say at this point it's a global timekeeping system. There are no major societies that I know about that don't count regular continuous cycles of seven days. But that wouldn't have been true if you'd asked me this question 200 years ago or even 100 years ago. Lots of societies have not counted seven day cycles or not counted continuous seven day cycles, or only had cycles that were fractions of, of lunar months or things like that, or didn't care about the number seven at all.

Mike Carruthers (7:34)

So who came up with this? Where'd it come from?

David Henkin (7:37)

It seems to have two origins. I'd say the primary origin is Jewish, the Jewish Sabbath practice. So to have a Sabbath count required that you maintain that weekly cycle. That's one origin. The Romans also observed a planetary week where they identified each day of a seven day cycle with one of the planets, including the sun and the moon as planets. That's where we get names like Sunday, Monday, Moon day, Tuesday, which is for Mars, et cetera. So those are the two origins. And those two calendar systems kind of met in the Roman Empire and then initially through Christianity, spread to other parts of the world. But not instantly and not evenly over the course of the next 2000 years.

Mike Carruthers (8:25)

And as clearly as arbitrary as the seven day week seems to be, it has stuck, it works. And it makes you wonder why I Mean it's been universally adopted even though it's so arbitrary. I wonder why.

Podcast Host (8:40)

Right.

David Henkin (8:40)

I mean, you could interpret that as it's been imposed on all of us, or you could interpret as. I think your question implies that there's some special utility, some special value to having a seven day cycle. Having a seven day cycle doesn't necessarily mean that you rest one or two days out of seven, though that's typically how it's used. But yeah, counting cycles of seven days lasts. So whether it lasts because it's been imposed or because of habit or because of utility I think is an interesting question.

Mike Carruthers (9:16)

Well, I'm no biblical scholar, but in the Bible there is talk of God creating earth and then resting on the seventh day. So doesn't that mean there was a seven day week in the Bible?

David Henkin (9:29)

Well, there was and there wasn't within the Bible. Right. The Bible says that God rests on day seven, but doesn't say that then God observes a cycle of seven days. It doesn't say then every seven days God rests and doesn't say that. Therefore people rested every seven days. And it's not clear from Genesis. I mean, if you just read the Bible from the beginning, you'd have no sense by the end of Genesis that the story at the beginning is going to lead to a calendar of seven days. You might think that if people wanted to commemorate God's rest on the seventh day, they'd rest on the seventh day of every lunar month or the seventh day of every year. It's only later in the Bible that there begins to be some sense that that story of creation could be linked to a calendar. So the creation story is part of the meaning of the Sabbath for Jews and for Christians too. But it's not clear that that is like the beginning of it. It's not clear that just because there was a creation story in which God rested on the seventh day that therefore people began observing weeks. And in fact there is no evidence that people used the seven day week as a calendar system for a society many centuries after the Bible was written.

Mike Carruthers (10:48)

But since it has lasted so long, it has become part of everything. What does it do for us? And does it get in the way of things or is it just, I mean, why does it continues on? So it must fill some need or some purpose.

David Henkin (11:07)

I think it fills different needs and different purposes depending how it's used. I mean, not all societies that have observed the weak have made it into a cycle of work and rest. But that is a primary thing that the seven day week does for people is it prescribes a regular rhythm of taking off from work, as we all know and complain about. Most of us don't actually really get to take off one or let alone two days work every seven days. But that's one thing that it could do for us. But it does all kinds of other things as well. What interests me is that in the modern American experience of the week from the early 19th century on, it enables us to schedule things. It enables us to schedule activities with friends, with family and with strangers in certain patterns. So that we wind up doing things every seven days or a certain number of times every seven days or a certain. At a certain rhythm every 14 days or every 21 or 20. I mean, there's nothing that we do in patterns of 5 days or 13 days, but there are all kinds of things that we do in patterns of seven. And that enables us to schedule things with other people.

Mike Carruthers (12:28)

Yeah, but what you said is so true that, you know, we do things every Monday. We have a Monday meeting, we have a Tuesday something else that there are a lot of things that fit pretty nicely into that weekly cycle that if you didn't have the week, you wouldn't have the cycle.

David Henkin (12:44)

Right. And the cool thing is that some of those things are very, very general. Right. They're communal, they're shared. Like all of us do a certain kind of thing one day of the week. And some of them are very idiosyncratic. Your Tuesday and my Tuesday could be super different depending on what our therapy schedule was or when our gym was open or what kinds of sports we like to watch or whether we had a custody arrangement with a co parent. I mean, there are all these very individualistic things that create our sense, our Tuesday.

Mike Carruthers (13:17)

I was watching an old Seinfeld episode not long ago and they were talking about the week and the days of the week and that Monday has a feel and Tuesday has a feel and Saturday has a feel. I've always felt that. I've always felt that days have a feel. And without the week, they wouldn't have a feel because everything would be the same.

David Henkin (13:38)

I totally share your experience. In some ways, what got me interested in the week was my inability to explain exactly what that feeling was. The Seinfeld episode to which you refer, if I remember correctly. The only thing that I think is odd about it is it makes Kramer sort of seem unusual or bizarre for thinking that days of the week have a feel. Whereas in fact, it's not just Kramer, it's all of us. I think we almost all have some sense of what a Tuesday feels like or what a Wednesday feels like. And it's mysterious. But my sense is that if you, if you dig deep into it, it has to do with schedules and expectations of things. And the week as a scheduling device is what gives it that feeling.

Mike Carruthers (14:24)

Well, everybody must have that because there isn't a person alive, I don't think, who hasn't said at one time when the holiday throws the week off. You know, today feels kind of like a Sunday.

David Henkin (14:36)

Right?

Mike Carruthers (14:37)

Everybody says that.

David Henkin (14:39)

Yeah. So when I began thinking about this, that was the only explanation that people could give. They would cite that examp, which is, oh, on a four day work week, suddenly Tuesday feels like a Monday or you take a vacation and suddenly Friday feels like a Saturday, et cetera. So it all had to do with the work and rest cycle. But sometimes when there wasn't a holiday, you still felt like today doesn't feel like a Wednesday and you didn't quite know why. And so I think that what was really helpful for me in thinking about the week was to stop assuming that everything that the week generated by this cycle of work and rest, cycle work and rest is hugely important. But then there are these other things, typically like things about Tuesdays and Wednesdays that give it a feel that are not simply about how long we've worked since the last day we head off.

Mike Carruthers (15:34)

We're talking about the week, our seven day week, why we have it, what it does for us and why it doesn't go away. David Henkin is my guest. He is author of the book the Week, A History of the Unnatural Rhythms that made us who we Are.

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Mike Carruthers (17:55)

So David, if you take a moment and imagine life without a week, it would be so different. Because we take a week off, we go somewhere for a week, we do things every other week. If we didn't have that word, we didn't have that week. Imagine how. Well, you can't. It's hard to imagine how you would reference that.

David Henkin (18:21)

Partly why it would be really different is because if you didn't have the week, you probably would come up with units of time that are fractions of a month or fractions of a year. And because the week isn't, it kind of stands alone. And so does this all. Does this completely different kind of work for us? One thing Mike, that you mentioned that I think is interesting is that we don't only use the week to divide one day from another, we also use it to lump all the days together. Like I'm going to do this for a week or I'm going to look back on the week that I had. So we use it as a lumper as well as a splitter. So really it does so many things. In our mental map of the passing.

Mike Carruthers (19:01)

Of time, was the week always as it is now, where there's the work week and then there's the weekend. I remember there was, I don't know why this stuck with me, but there was an episode of Downton Abbey where some people were over at the abbey and they were talking about the week and somebody said, well, we could do that on the weekend or something. And old lady Grantham says, what's a weekend. And she'd never heard of a weekend. Is that a new thing?

David Henkin (19:31)

In the United states, until the 20th century, Sunday was the only day of rest. So the idea of a weekend as being two days didn't really spread to most working people until the 20th century. And it was largely the result of union agitation and of the depression and crisis of, of underemployment. So before then, in the United States, the weekend was just Sunday. So you could call it the weekend, but it wasn't as common an expression because you could simply refer to it Sunday, the Lord's day, or the first day of the week.

Mike Carruthers (20:14)

And so at what point did Saturday become another day off?

David Henkin (20:18)

So in the 19th century, middle class workers often had half day on Saturday. Teachers often had a Saturday off. School children had Saturday off. Saturday is an additional day off or partial day off was known to lots of people in the United states in the 19th century. Sometimes people also had Wednesday as a half day from school, for example. So there was some sense of there being other times of the week that were not as linked to work. But it was not until the 20th century that it became the norm for people to have a Saturday as well as. So I would say the 1930s would be crucial transition where Saturday became a day off for a majority of people in the United States.

Mike Carruthers (21:06)

I know you talk about how the pandemic kind of disrupted the week because every day seemed like every other day and talk about that.

David Henkin (21:16)

The pandemic was interesting to me because all the comedy routines, all of the memes all focused on blurs day. This notion that pandemic shutdown had unsettled our sense of our place in the weekly cycle. And my best explanation for it is that's just the cycle to which we're actually most attached. That's the one that requires our regular habits to perpetuate. All other cycles could be linked to other things, especially day and night. You can just look outside if you want to. But the week is a fragile thing. If we don't have our regular seven day habits, if we don't do the things that we're used to doing in the way that we're used to doing them, we get dislodged from our sense of time more generally. And the week is the best way of expressing that sense of disorientation, because the week is the thing that we're most in some ways attached to. We're most worried about losing it because it depends on the. And the frailty of human record keeping. But we're Also most attached to it because it's the one that makes a difference to our lives. If you think today is the 16th and it turns out to be the 17th, it's probably not going to cause you much inconvenience or much consternation. But if you think that today is Wednesday and it turns out to be Tuesday, it's firstly going to make you miss all kinds of appointments and do the wrong things. But it also is going to make you wonder whether you've just lost track of time in some more fundamental way.

Mike Carruthers (22:46)

What's the future of the week? Do you think that when you have things like pandemics that disrupt everything, do people begin to question it? It seems like people would just race back to it because we have to have it. If we don't have it, what do we have? Like we were saying earlier, Thursday has a feel to it, but the 10th of the month doesn't have a feel to it. So you've got to have that.

David Henkin (23:12)

I think you do have to have that. And I think the pandemic shutdown showed us how attached we are to it. The threats to the week, I think, don't come from things like pandemic shutdowns. The threats to the week come, and they were in place much earlier, come from things like telecommuting, working from home, non synchronized entertainment. So, for example, when I was a kid, a lot of what people thought was the feeling of Wednesday or Thursday had to do with what was on TV those days. So that's gone. It's gone except for sports. But scripted entertainment is now asynchronous, and work is often asynchronous or just irregular patterns. So those are the things that might make the week either less necessary or less powerful. We also don't need it as much as a scheduling device because our electronic calendars can hold appointments in place for us without our relying on the regularity of a weekly meeting. So those are the things that threaten the week. But I do think that you're right, Mike, that we cling to the week because there's nothing else like it, because it does encapsulate somehow our sense of being in time, and because it reflects all the social arrangements that shape our lives. I do think that the week is likely to survive. The week has been attacked before by the French Revolution, by the Bolshevik Revolution. It was even attacked a little bit by American big business in the late 19th and early 20th century. And each time the weeks survived unscathed.

Mike Carruthers (24:58)

One thing we didn't attack directly here, and that is why seven days? Why not six? Why not eight? Why seven?

David Henkin (25:05)

So there have been different answers given. Some people have speculated that it has to do maybe to do with the moon. That's I think a very unconvincing explanation to me, because a quarter of a lunar cycle is not actually 7 lunations are closer to 30 days than the 29. So you might have expected a moon based fraction to be five or six. So I don't think that works. Some people suggested that 7 is a mnemonically useful number, that once you get to larger numbers it becomes harder to remember all the constitutive elements. To me that seems sort of plausible, but I don't think it would account for why so many different societies had seven and so many different societies didn't. So it really wasn't universal timekeeping system until relatively recently. Traditional Christians, Jews, Muslims might say that seven is built into the fabric of the universe by the creation story. One might argue that something about the psychology of the physiology of the human body requires rest every seven days. Again, all these things are plausible. Not the moon one, but the other ones are all plausible, except they don't really account for why so many societies did just fine without 7. They might account for why 7 has stuck, or why a couple of societies agreed on seven in the first place. But as you can tell by my tone of voice, I'm a little agnostic about the magic of seven.

Mike Carruthers (26:40)

Well, I always enjoy talking about topics here on this podcast that I never knew were topics of discussion, and this has certainly been one of them. I've been speaking with David Henken. He is a professor of history at the University of California at Berkeley, and the name of his book is the Week A History of the Unnatural Rhythms that Made Us who We Are. And there is a link to that book in the show notes. Appreciate it. Thanks David.

David Henkin (27:07)

Okay, cool. Have a great day.

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Mike Carruthers (28:42)

I have to admit, I'm more of a dog person than a cat person. But I've owned cats. I like cats. A lot of people own cats or have owned cats or will live in a house with cats. And we've never really done a segment that explores the life and the world of cats and how they've come to be one of our favorite pets and how are they related to other felines, like tigers? Where did they come from? How did they get domesticated, and why? And what is it about cats that people find so intriguing? Well, here to discuss this is Jonathan Lossis. He's an evolutionary biologist at Washington University and author of the book the Cat's How Cats Evolved from the Savannah to your Sofa. Hey, Jonathan, welcome to Something youg Should Know.

Podcast Host (29:33)

Well, thank you so much for having me here.

Mike Carruthers (29:35)

So what is a cat? Where do cats come from? Why are they here?

Podcast Host (29:40)

Well, that's an interesting question. I mean, I everyone knows what a cat is just by looking at one. And it turns out that the first cat that was discovered in the fossil record, the ancestor of all cats, as far as we can tell, evolved about 30 million years ago. And it pretty much looked like a cat. Its legs were a little bit shorter than most cats, but if you saw one walking down the street, you would say, hey, that's a cat. And so, I mean, I could give you the technical aspects of the anatomy that define members of the thelidae, the cat family. But essentially a cat is a cat and no one's going to confuse one with something else. And that's been true throughout the evolutionary history of this group. There has been variations, bigger and smaller spots on the coat and so on. Of course, there were the saber toothed cats, but essentially they've all been cats.

Mike Carruthers (30:31)

And the cat family, how big is the cat family?

Podcast Host (30:36)

Well, Today there are 42 living species. And I think people might be surprised to hear that, that there are so many. Everyone knows the big cats. Those are the celebrities of the cat world. The lions, the tigers, the cheetahs and so on. They have their own week on National Geographic, and everyone knows them. The little cats, though, which I'm defining as cats that weigh less than £50, are much more common. And I like to ask people, can you name species of cats less than 50 pounds? And the two that people usually get right away are the ocelot and the bobcat. But after that, people often are stumped. But there's all kinds of obscure cats that no one has heard of. The tigrina, the Ancilla, the marbled cat, the Bornean bay cat, the rusty footed cat.

Mike Carruthers (31:26)

So the cat that we think of when we see a cat, did it evolve from these bigger cats or is it just they're related, but. But they took different paths?

Podcast Host (31:38)

Well, that's a great question. And scientists have been studying that for quite some time now. And the consensus, it's pretty clear at this point that the domestic cat, which is what we call the species around us, technically Felis catus, the domestic cat, evolved from the African wildcat. This is a species that is found throughout Africa and into the Arabian peninsula and western Asia. And they actually look very much alike. That if I like to say that if you saw an African wildcat in your backyard, your response would not be, what's an African wildcat doing in New Jersey? But it would be, what a beautiful cat. I've never seen one quite like that. So they are very similar in their anatomy and it turns out, in their DNA as well. But it's very clear that that was the ancestor of the domestic cat. And that domestication probably occurred somewhere in the area called the Fertile Crescent that stretches from Turkey, Syria, Israel, through to Egypt. And where civilization really got its start, where people first settled down and lived in villages and agriculture developed.

Mike Carruthers (32:45)

And somebody said, let's go get that cat and make it a pet, or it had some other agricultural purpose, or what was the path to domestication?

Podcast Host (32:56)

Well, be Probable path. And this is actually very hard to study, actually. But what seems very likely is that when people started living in villages and growing crops and agriculture really took off. Well, as you know, when farmers grow crops, there's the good season and the bad season. So you grow as much food as you can when the seasons are right, and then you store the food for the rest of the year in granaries or whatever. Well, when that happens, the logical, obviously what happens next is that rodents are attracted. Mice and rats see this bounty of food in this building that they can easily go through the walls. And so they start, the rodent population explodes. Well, in turn, African wildcats are no dummies. And they realize there's all these choice, yummy rodents right there. And so they are attracted to live around the villages. But the important thing to keep in mind here is that animals have personalities. This has been a very vibrant area of research in the last few years. And by personalities, I mean behavioral tendencies. Some cats behave differently than others just due to their predispositions, just like people. And so to anthropomorphize, there might be some cats that are bold and curious and others that are, you know, scaredy cats, they're timid and afraid. So the ones that are bolder, using the term loosely, may have been willing to go around villages to be near people to take advantage of the rodents. And those would be the ones that, that benefited, that they would get lots of food to eat, and so they would have lots of kittens. And as a result, the genetic mutations that, that are responsible for those behaviors would become more common in the population. And so it would be a phenomenon that, that the cats that are willing to hang around people do better. And in turn, people may have seen the benefit of these cats. So maybe they started putting out a little food for them to encourage them to be around. Or maybe they gave them shelter, a warm, a warm spot to sleep when at night or day when they were sleeping. And so this back and forth where the cats that were willing to do this benefited. And then people encouraged it even more. And eventually the cats were hanging around the village all the time. And maybe people started petting them. And you can see how this co evolutionary walk would lead to the African wildcat turning into the domestic cat.

Mike Carruthers (35:28)

So I get that cats serve a purpose, that having them around is good to help keep the rodent population down and all. But cats, compared to dogs, say, do seem more aloof, that they're not as clingy and happy to see people that they might be Good to have around outside. But at some point, who was it that said, well, you know, let's have them live here?

Podcast Host (35:53)

Let me answer that in a couple of ways. First is that the most likely scenario for dog domestication is pretty similar. That the curious or boldest dog started hanging around people, and in this case, probably eating the scraps in the trash and so on. But it probably occurred in a very similar sort of scenario, but it happened a lot earlier. The archaeological records suggest that dogs may have been domesticated 15,000 years ago or even earlier. The genetic data suggests it might have been closer to 30,000 years. So dogs have been domesticated longer than cats have. And so maybe the difference is just due to time. But there's another possibility, and that is that dogs are pack animals. And so somewhere during the domestication process, humans were able to substitute ourselves as the alpha dogs, if you will. That's a gross characterization. And so we've been able to take over the lead, and dogs have just adapted their pack living behaviors and directed them towards us. And so they may have been predisposed to become much more intimately involved with people than cats were. So that may explain the difference. On the other hand, there is this idea that cats are aloof loners, and that is not entirely true. It turns out that in places where cats occur at high densities, they actually are very, very social with each other, very ineval to each other. And in fact, they form groups that are very similar to the prides of lions, that lions are famous for, living in groups that are composed of related females. And these females are extremely friendly to each other. They groom each other, they lie on top of each other. They actually help raise each other's young. And now the males, when they grow up, they leave the pride, but the females stay put. So they're all related. And it turns out that in places where cats, where there's a lot of food, cats will occur at high densities. And that food might be because people are just putting food out for them, as happens in many places around the US and elsewhere. Or it may be in places where, like fishing villages, where there are big piles of scraps that the cats eat. But in any case, the plentitude of food allows the cats to occur to high density. And they live in groups that are very similar to lion prides. They're groups of related females that are very friendly to each other. They groom each other, they help raise their young. They even sometimes serve as a midwife and help during. During the birth of the kittens. And so they, they are very friendly to each other. Now, there will be multiple groups of cats in one place, and they're not friendly at all to members of other groups, but they are friendly to their own groups. So under some circumstances, cats can actually be very friendly to each other. One last thing, there are some breeds of cats that have been developed that are extremely affectionate, almost could be mistaken for dogs in ways. And so cats do have that possibility, but it has to be brought out.

Mike Carruthers (39:00)

Well, I was going to ask because when we think of lions, other big cats like that, they do live in groups. You seldom see them out on their own. But. But domesticated cats seem to do just fine by themselves. And maybe they could be social, but they seem to do just fine if they're not.

Podcast Host (39:23)

Well, the lion is actually the only wild species of cat that does that, that lives in groups. The cheetah is somewhat of an exception. Brothers will band together to try to control a territory and work together to control the territory and mate with the females within it. But with that exception, there are no other wild species of cat that live in groups. And so the fact that the domestic cat does this, at least under some circumstances, is really an interesting parallel. It's really true. Social living in groups and friendliness. It's only the domestic cat and the lion.

Mike Carruthers (39:59)

And when did people, in a big way, start bringing cats in as pets and getting them for their kids? And I mean, did that catch on pretty quick when, when this domestication started a long time ago, or is this more of a recent thing?

Podcast Host (40:15)

Well, I want to answer that. At two timescales, going way back in time. The first archaeological evidence of cats and humans living together is about 10,000 years ago from a archeological site in Cyprus, an island in the Mediterranean near Turkey. But we don't know if that was a domesticated cat or just a wild cat that had become somewhat tame. We do know that domesticated, that cats were domesticated by the time of the Egyptian civilizations, that 3,500 years ago. We can see paintings on tomb walls and sculptures that clearly reveal cats living in a domesticated way, wearing collars and going on outings with the family and eating food underneath the table and so on. So historically, cats really became pets certainly by the time of the Egyptians. And the question is, did it actually happen in Egypt or did it happen somewhere else? And then the cats came to Egypt, and we don't know the answer to that. More recently, a key development in the react, the interaction of people and cats was the development of kitty litter, which was only invented in the 1940s. And before that time, the possibility of having a cat that just lived indoor all the time was very difficult. And so most cats were indoor outdoor cats and as a result were not as intimate family members oftentimes as cats are today. But since the advent of kitty litter, that's really changed the ability of people to have cats as pets that stay inside all the time.

Mike Carruthers (41:51)

If you were to, well, how intelligent are cats? And I guess you need some barometer or something to compare it against. So maybe dogs or, but, but just a sense of like, are they trainable? Do they know what we're saying? Are they, what, how smart are they?

Podcast Host (42:08)

Well, they're very smart. Cats are very smart animals, as are dogs. And it's, you know, we could get into this argument back and forth. It's a little bit of apples and oranges because it's, it's hard to directly compare the two animals. And in particular, part of the reason it's hard is because of dog's nature. It's easy to do experiments where you can test how quickly they learn because they, they love being rewarded particularly with attention and affection. And so it's easy to, to train a cat. Sorry. To do an experiment to see how a dog, how quickly it can figure things out. Cats can be a little more difficult to do these experiments, but people have done them and it turns out cats are just as smart as dogs. You know, as a chauvinist, I'd say even smarter than dogs, but they're certainly very smart. They, they, they do know their names. They can tell when a person, when they're, the person they live with is talking to them as opposed to talking to another person. They can be trained. Actually, there are whole books on this and it's not actually that hard. It's the same principle that you, that, that you train a dog, you just reward them for the behaviors that you would like them to perform. And the reward is food. Cats are very good food oriented. So overall, cats are very smart. They can figure things out and they understand their names and other, and other, you know, you can do many different tests and they show that they're very smart animals.

Mike Carruthers (43:35)

My dog is very food oriented constantly.

Podcast Host (43:39)

Yeah, all the time. Cats are even more so because dogs sometimes will settle for affection and sometimes cats will. But if you really want a cat to do something, give the cat a treat.

Mike Carruthers (43:50)

I've always been more of a dog person because I've had several dogs growing up. But I did have a cat and a rather amazing cat. And what Made it so amazing. And I've heard other stories like this that when I was like 12 years old, my family moved to England for a year. And the neighbor said, well, we'll take care of the cat. Well, the cat didn't get that. The cat kept going back to our house and we had rented the house out. And the people who were renting the house were getting really tired of that cat. So they kept the cat out. And finally the cat ran away, just disappeared. And we came home and we didn't know this. And the neighbor said, yeah, the cat ran away. Three years later, I walk in the house and there's the cat sitting where its bowl used to be, waiting to be fed. And I'm just floored by that. How a cat, I mean, we have no idea where it had been. It looked okay, looked well fed, and it stayed. It came back and it stayed. And I thought, that is amazing.

Podcast Host (45:03)

I would have to agree with you. That is a great story. I have heard some stories like that. It does happen. Cats and dogs are renowned for returning to their old homes when people move. That's very well established. But I've heard of stories of dogs and cats showing up several years later just as you described. There's an interesting, if I can take a tangent to that story, people researchers have started studying pet cats to see what they do when they go outside. Now in the United States, most people don't let their cats out, but some people do, and it's more common in other countries. And so the way they research this is one of two ways. They either put a little tracking device on the cat and you can then these days you can just follow it where the cat is doing on your computer or even your, your cell phone. And you get very accurate readings of where the cat is. And as a result, you can see where it's wandering to how far away from home it goes and so on. The other thing is, is people researchers have developed little cameras that you put around the cat's neck on its collar, and you can get the cat's eye view of where it's going and what it's doing. And you can actually buy both of these now as commercial products, although researchers use higher quality ones. And anyway, there are all kinds of fascinating things about the behavior of these cats outside. But the one that I think is kind of funny is there are a number of cases, it's quite common that when Bill Smith tracks his cat, it turns out that it visits the neighbors houses and it goes in through the cat flap or maybe the owner lets them in and they have multiple homes, and they will eat the resident cat's food and they'll just hang out there. And it's extremely common.

Mike Carruthers (46:48)

What about the seeming rivalry between dogs and cats? Yeah, people, you know, some people think they're just natural enemies. I'm pretty sure that's not true. But there is this animosity, it seems, between them. What is that?

Podcast Host (47:04)

Well, in more wild settings or in. Certainly in feral cats, cats that have, you know, live outside all the time, that are unowned, dogs are a real threat because dogs are predatory animals and they are much bigger. And if a dog and a cat get into a fight, many times the cat will lose. Sometimes it can fight the dog off. But dogs can be a real threat in nature. And so. So it's understandable in a way that there is this instinct of cats to be wary of dogs. And some dogs, some more aggressive dogs, can be very, very aggressive towards cats. So there is that. On the other hand, in many households, dogs and cats get along very well. And often a trick to that is when they're introduced, when they're young. And so it's quite common that people can have dogs and cats, and they do quite fine together. One interesting thing is that dogs and cats are able to understand each other's signals that like many animals, dogs and cats communicate with body postures and so on, but they sometimes have signals that differ between species. The most obvious one is what they do with their tail. That a dog whose tail is moving back and forth, wagging its tail, that's a friendly gesture. A cat that's wiggling its tail back and forth, that's a gesture. I'm nervous, I'm upset. Something not good is happening here. And nonetheless, the dogs and cats are able to figure out what each other mean. Another example is that a common behavior of a friendly behavior of cats is to touch noses. Anyone who's had multiple cats in their house has seen that dogs don't do that. But when dogs and cats live together, sometimes the dog will figure it out and will engage in nose touching with cats as a friendly gesture. So the bottom line is there are reasons why sometimes dogs and cats don't get along. But oftentimes they can live together amicably.

Mike Carruthers (49:03)

Well, you certainly know your cats. I appreciate you sharing all this information. It's fascinating. I've been speaking with Jonathan Lossis. He is an evolutionary biologist at Washington University and author of the book the Cat's Meow how cats evolved from the savannah to your sofa and There's a link to that book in the show notes and that's it. Jonathan, appreciate you being here.

Podcast Host (49:26)

Well, you're very welcome. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

Mike Carruthers (49:32)

You probably have some valuables in your home that you would like to keep safe from burglars should they break in and start looking for stuff. If you stash your valuables in a closet, a dresser drawer or a freezer, you're actually making a burglar's job a lot easier because that's exactly where they'll look. According to Michelle Boykins of the National Crime Prevention Council, the best place to hide stuff is in the laundry area because most crooks forget to look there. And burglars are also less likely to spend a lot of time checking Hard to get to places that are above eye level. In other words, because if it's inconvenient for you to get to, it's inconvenient for them to get to. And probably a really good place to stash your valuables. And that is something you should know. It would be a big help if you would leave a rating or review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. Just takes a second and it means a lot to us. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

David Henkin (50:37)

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

Mike Carruthers (50:40)

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

David Henkin (50:49)

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

Mike Carruthers (50:53)

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas and I don't he's too old.

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Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dune 2 is overrated.

Mike Carruthers (51:02)

It is.

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Anyway, despite this, we come together to.

David Henkin (51:06)

Host Unspooled Podcast A. We talk about good movies, critical hits.

Mike Carruthers (51:10)

Fan favorites, must sees, and in case.

David Henkin (51:11)

You missed ems, we're talking the Home.

Podcast Host (51:13)

Alone from Grease to the Dark Knight.

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We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks, we've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look.

Mike Carruthers (51:20)

And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, like Ganja and Hess.

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So if you love movies like we.

David Henkin (51:26)

Do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

Mike Carruthers (51:28)

Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your.

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Podcasts and don't forget to hit the follow button. Foreign.

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Do you love Disney? Do you love top 10 lists? Then you are going to love our.

Mike Carruthers (51:45)

Hit podcast Disney Countdown.

Nordstrom Advertiser (51:46)

I'M Megan, the magical millennial. And I'm the dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover. On our show, we are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun.

David Henkin (52:05)

Facts you didn't know you needed. I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle what insect song is typically higher pitched in hotter temperatures and lower pitched in cooler temperatures.

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You got this.

Podcast Host (52:20)

No, I didn't believe that about a witch coming true.

David Henkin (52:24)

Well, I didn't even either.

Podcast Host (52:25)

Of course, I'm just cicada.

Mike Carruthers (52:28)

I'm crying, I'm suicidal. You win that one.

Podcast Host (52:32)

So if you're looking for a healthy.

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Dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown. Wherever you get your podcasts.